Valar Guild

September 26, 2010 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe, and Varda.

Attending: (13)
    AriehnV,  ArPharazonV, arwenv1, Ecthelion-(V)/BFIIShotgunner, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv, Galdor-(V)/galdorandwe, Gilraen-(V)/Iryenth, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, Luthien-(T)/luthienathariel,  Rory-(V)/cipher nemo, TulkasValar61, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    Bilbo-(V)'s birthday
    Arien-(Valar): death of a monitor
    13th Anniversary of the Valar Guild Oct. 4
    AIM shortcut
    SC2 and others
    Ventrilo for laptop problem solved
    Luthien's topic: composer for "Born of Hope" is looking for aid with translations of Quenya and Sindarin for a choir to sing, Luthien is helping.
    Varda's topic in honor of Sept 22's joint Bilbo and Frodo birthday in the books: Why Bilbo adopted Frodo and how that worked out for the both of them
    More Tolkien chat:
       Eonwe's topic 1: Noldor still considered themselves Amanyar (Elves of Aman) after the Exile.
       Ar-Pharazon's topic 1: Let's say Feanor and his own had gotten the Silmarilli back. Like, within a few years, and no major casualties. Would they have returned to Aman if they had permission?
       Ar-Pharazon's topic 2: We know Beren got away with a Silmaril (though it cost him his hand). What if he (or someone else) had gotten away with all 3? What if all 3 were returned to the Noldor (dead or alive Feanor) through stealth instead of war, and Morgoth's forces as it stood remained undefeated?
       Eonwe's topic 2/tangent: While we're on the subject, way to help Huan save face. Huan doesn't die to any "normal" evil wolf of Morgoth's, he dies to a Berserking evil wolf of Morgoth.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
fladrifv: and afk
ArPharazonV: Will be semi-afk, have yet to do my daily quests
Iryenth has entered the room.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Gilraen and Varda.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
VardaValar1: brb
ArPharazonV: Aiya folks
AriehnV: Aiya all :-)'
AriehnV: am I here?
ArPharazonV: yes
Eonwe Valar: Yes.
VardaValar1: back
Eonwe Valar: WB :}
AriehnV: good :-)  and wb
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe, Phar, Arien, Flad, and Gilraen. :-)
VardaValar1: Hi from Fangorn, Sauron, and Bilbo.
Eonwe Valar: Heya back to them.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: aiya!
AriehnV: aiya Indis
Eonwe Valar: Looks like we've got everyone here who's coming.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Indis.
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis
Eonwe Valar: Let's begin the meeting.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, feel free to chair.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: I did :}
VardaValar1: :-)
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Bilbo's birthday was the week. Happy Birthday to Bilbo :}
ArPharazonV: congrats!
VardaValar1: Tulkas and Amroth are currently online in LotRO, Bilbo and Sauron are online in SC2, and Fangorn with Nob in WoW.
karakedi25: I will shortly be in LotRO as well :-)
VardaValar1: Bilbo says Thanks. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Any other membership news?
ArPharazonV: well
VardaValar1: We have some people talking about joining, but haven't done so yet.
ArPharazonV: I'm back to my old position with the computer :p
ArPharazonV: though haven't been able to move my chair yet, so sitting higher than usual and now my back hurts
ArPharazonV: but it'll be back!
ArPharazonV: and I'm away from the books now :P
Eonwe Valar: I keep dragging mine to my desk from the shelf, hehe.
VardaValar1: You could run grab whatever book you need for the Tolkien chat and call it exercise!

Eonwe Valar: Web News:
Eonwe Valar: Only 4 days left to get your info in for the GSMU.
BFIIShotgunner has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: what happens if you're a day late? :-)
karakedi25: you're cast into outer darkness
Eonwe Valar: I send eagles to your house to collect the info :}
VardaValar1: Aiya Ecthelion : )
VardaValar1: For further Web News,
BFIIShotgunner: Aiya
VardaValar1: we're collecting articles, poetry, stories, art, music, language stuff and anything else you care to add for the Tolkien Site, to be labeled specially as part of the upcoming 13th Valar Guild Anniversary.
VardaValar1: If you can add something about your own character to make sure he or she is better represented, bonus!
VardaValar1: That's all I had.
Eonwe Valar: The Anniversary is about 1 week away, so get those works in soon :}
Eonwe Valar: onday, in fact.
Eonwe Valar: *Next Monday
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: sorry for that what did i miss
ArPharazonV: membership and.. web?
Eonwe Valar: All of Membership and Web. We're about to move into Gaming.
VardaValar1: Anniversary is coming up fast. Send something on Arien if you can: art, poetry, article, etc. : )
VardaValar1: We'll also try to do our Sunday to Sunday AIM chat room marathon. : )
VardaValar1: Any other suggestions for the anniversary are welcome.

AriehnV: ah right ive got a bit of membership news l.. can i jump in yet?#
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Arien.
cipher nemo has entered the room.
AriehnV: my cat had a "small" mishap this morning and killed by loading a bit of sick on my monitor killed it :-(##
cipher nemo: greetings!
cipher nemo: (Rory here)
Eonwe Valar: Sorry to hear that Arien.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Rory.
VardaValar1: Aiya Rory
VardaValar1: Your cat died? I'm so sorry!
AriehnV: #i am at the moment on bruces Labtop which has an outdated version of aim on it but glad that it still works
karakedi25: Hey Rory!
AriehnV: nah computer monitor died#
karakedi25: I believe the cat killed the computer
karakedi25: doing what cats do naturally
ArPharazonV: cat killed monitor, yes
cipher nemo: (testing)
AriehnV: cat still happy and cute and all but still annoying
VardaValar1: O ok. Rather it be the monitor than the cat. : )
VardaValar1: Bad cat! Bad!
AriehnV: indeed lol :-)

cipher nemo has left the room.
cipher nemo has entered the room.
cipher nemo: (testing, trying to change name showing)
cipher nemo: yeah!

AriehnV: #and with the anniversary i am tiddling with something
Eonwe Valar: It was showing you as Rory to me already :}
VardaValar1: I see the name as cipher nemo
cipher nemo: it was delayed for me... had to rejoin channel
VardaValar1: Arien, what are you fiddling with?
cipher nemo: ciphernemo in side panel, Rory in chat prefix for me in latest Trillian
AriehnV: ah well two things actually something i got nagged by last week
AriehnV: for me its ciphernemo
ArPharazonV: cipher nemo to me, yes
karakedi25: same situation for me, Rory
AriehnV: one is a story and the other might result in an article#
karakedi25: karakedi25 in side; indis in chat
galdorandwe has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: big crowd today
VardaValar1: Aiya Galdor : )
galdorandwe: Aiya everyone.
ArPharazonV: Aiya :-)
AriehnV: aiya :-)
VardaValar1: Happy anniversary planning and regular meeting to you all. : )
karakedi25: aiya Galdor
VardaValar1: Suggestions welcome.
galdorandwe: How about something similar to the summerfest on LoTRO...not sure how that could be accomplished, but there are some IT types in the guild :-)
Eonwe Valar: Fr the last few years, we've been ensuring the channel stay open for the entire week by having people in here. members are free to come and go to help keep it open, chat with members, etc.
Eonwe Valar: Sometimes we get members who don't drop by much, who come in to reminisce, we talk about the early days of the guild, that kind of thing :}
ArPharazonV: isn't that week usually *around* the anniversary?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
ArPharazonV: so shouldn't it start next meeting?
VardaValar1: On either side of it.
VardaValar1: Traditionally, yes, it should.
VardaValar1: Since it's so close to that Sunday, we were wondering if anyone would want to try for two weeks. But that's a bit much. : )
Eonwe Valar: That's what I meant, Phar. We keep the channel open during the Anniversary week.
ArPharazonV: ahh, two weeks
VardaValar1: One week is probably quite enough.
VardaValar1: That means it starts next Sunday.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.

cipher nemo: btw, the link works I posted on Eonwe's thread to connect to this channel via your default IM client (have to copy and paste the link in a new tab/window)
Eonwe Valar: IM client, or web browser? I got the impression it was the latter from reading it.
cipher nemo: nope, opens my Trillian IM client through the browser
Eonwe Valar: Interesting.
cipher nemo: so only browser is needed to launch the link... then it's all through the IM client from there
cipher nemo: (ie: like opening Adobe Reader for a PDF in the reader app from a browser link)
VardaValar1: Some people put a link on their desktop to go straight to the chat room in AIM.
Eonwe Valar: I just have a link to open the program. I do everything else manually, hehe.
ArPharazonV: I have a shortcut to the chatroom straight on my desktop, yes
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, if there's no more about the Anniversary, let's move on to Gaming.
ArPharazonV: no idea if that's possible on the newer versions though, didn't find it for the one week I had a higher version

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW: Brewfest going, Harvest Festival over. Get in your Coren Direbrew runs while you can.
AriehnV: and get the coolest mount ever :-)
AriehnV: the Kodo :-D
cipher nemo: *hugs his Logitech G9x"
Eonwe Valar: Lothar: I slew Coren Direbrew, completing the "What a Long, Strange Trip It's Been" Achievement and getting my Violet Protodrake.
AriehnV: grats :-)
VardaValar1: Nice : )
ArPharazonV: grats!
Eonwe Valar: I also am the proud owner of a Quel'Delar, once again having all of the Argent Tourney World Event Achievements complete
cipher nemo: (in WoW, does anyone here have their epic flying mount?)
Eonwe Valar: I have several :}
ArPharazonV: I've got 100+ mounts, so yeah, there's some epic flyers in there.
AriehnV: mmh managed finally on Justi .. but was an awful grind#
ArPharazonV: I think 102 now. Was stuck on 101 for a long time but got the red qiraji recently.
Eonwe Valar: I'm favoring the Violet Protodrake right now mostly because it's 310% speed, but typcially I like my Argent Hippogryph.
ArPharazonV: Violet Proto is great. If you have a 310% mount it automatically upgrades flying form to 310% :P
ArPharazonV: for a druid
ArPharazonV: <-- druid
AriehnV: pfft
Eonwe Valar: It's supposed to do similar for anyone who has it when Cataclysm comes out, from my understanding.
ArPharazonV: Yes, I heard.
ArPharazonV: Good for you ;-)
Eonwe Valar: 330% flying speed is nice :}
ArPharazonV: ah, yes... darn paladins
AriehnV: somebody said something against us ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Also on Lothar: several people crafting, several working on characters.
Eonwe Valar: I managed to catch Elwing, Fangorn, Nob, and Bofur on.

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Server work going on tomorrow.
VardaValar1: Monday morning repairs, aye.
cipher nemo: when is the fall festival starting in Middle Earth?
Eonwe Valar: Looks like they're applying an update to the game.
VardaValar1: Arien had a bit of WoW news.
AriehnV: I moved my ex main from the Auchindoun server to Argent Dawn##
AriehnV: #my raidable paladin Justicia , now alliance as healer and mediocre dps
AriehnV: just to let you know :-)
ArPharazonV: I've seen you around under that name, indeed :-)
AriehnV: just nicer gear and easier
AriehnV: but still working on Urwendi , will try to get her tank and pvp rigged#
AriehnV: thats me :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Arien.
galdorandwe has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Landroval:
Eonwe Valar: Varda's Floor.
VardaValar1: We had our usual Monday and Wednesday instance run times at 8pm EDT.
VardaValar1: Monday was a first try at the newly scaled up to level 65 Annuminas instance run.
VardaValar1: That didn't go as well as hoped, so we tried again on Wednesday, this time taking my guardian in, as that was believed to be the problem. That didn't do it either.
VardaValar1: Then we made a very successful Hard Mode run in the Grand Stairs of Moria, picked up a stack of Moria Medallions.
VardaValar1: Also a lot of us are spending a good bit of time in the new Enedwaith area, including completing the new Epic Book that moves into that area.
VardaValar1: It's a great spot for making money fast too, and has a variety of dailies both solo and group.
VardaValar1: Some of us are going for or have the new horse for Enedwaith. : )
VardaValar1: End report.
cipher nemo: (how does one enter Endewaith if they have the expansion?)
AriehnV: i ve tried starting a skirmish with Tulkas last monday
AriehnV: but unfortunately he got visitors
VardaValar1: Enedwaith is south of Ulunduin of Eregion, across the river.
cipher nemo: thx
VardaValar1: It's a 64-65 level area.

Eonwe Valar: Thanks for the report, Varda. Is there any other gaming news before we move to Tolkien?
VardaValar1: Bilbo and Sauron now have StarCraft 2 and are playing it hard, mainly the missions right now.
ArPharazonV: Played several games this week.
VardaValar1: I dropped into Second Life, not long though.
ArPharazonV: Starcraft II one of them, did the Great Train Robbery mission... also, the first real patch came in SCII, though the changes weren't *that* major in my opinion.
cipher nemo: anyone waiting for SWTOR?
ArPharazonV: Just be careful that you can't load in-mission savegames you made before the patch, unless you downgrade for that save (in which case you lose battlenet connection and can't get achievements)
ArPharazonV: Also played.. Guild Wars! And not only a short visit this time, but for the first time in nearly 2 years I really got back into it. Refreshed my mind concerning mechanics etc, and instead of continuing where I left off I decided to do all the previous missions from the start again, the first 2 of which I did this week.
ArPharazonV: So it was good fun! And I hope to make that a regular thing for me :-)
Iryenth has left the room.
ArPharazonV: And that's it for me.
Iryenth has entered the room.
fladrifv: I have a small item
fladrifv: *sents a small entling on stage to protect the stage*
AriehnV: a small item for an ent will be a huge branch :-)
fladrifv: haha, well spoken arien
fladrifv: Im leading the chess competition and it has a very high likelyhood that I will win it
VardaValar1: Woohooo!
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Hope you do well!
karakedi25: my fingers are crossed for you
ArPharazonV: Great! Nice job! How long will it take still?
fladrifv: oh please dont its a 3 day waiting time per move
ArPharazonV: hehe
fladrifv: your fingers will end up being locked
ArPharazonV: So you'll be the best out of.. how many thousand?
fladrifv: 1.6 thousand
Eonwe Valar: Nicely done, Fladrif.
ArPharazonV: wow
fladrifv: it will probably go on for some time more until this is finished its basically only one guy that pushes the limits regarding the 3 day time constraint
ArPharazonV: 3 days per move... that'll take a few months at least
Eonwe Valar: If there's no more gaming news, we shall move on to Tolkien.
fladrifv: it normaly takes 2 months a round
fladrifv: *calls the entling off stage*
Eonwe Valar: Good luck with the rest of the tournament, Fladrif :}
galdorandwe has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Welcome back : )

galdorandwe: Thanks. My Ventrillo problem has been, at the moment, solved.
VardaValar1: He remapped the key for talking on his laptop
VardaValar1: What was it, insert something
galdorandwe: The insert/pause button. I had remapped it several times but could find none that worked. [Note: later re-mapped to the apostrophe ` key]
luthienathariel has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Thanks, it may help others who've had a similar problem.
galdorandwe: Ulmo was right...the sound quality for Vent is a whole lot better than the stock in-game talk.
VardaValar1: Aiya Luthien. :-)
VardaValar1: And adjustable. : )
luthienathariel: Hello :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya Luthien.
galdorandwe: Aiya Luthien.
ArPharazonV: Aiya

Eonwe Valar: Luthien has a a piece of interesting Tolkien-related news for us.
luthienathariel: (Hello, hello, hello)
luthienathariel: it's about this composer who wrote the music for "born of hope"
luthienathariel: he plans to create a choir piece based on the Ainulindalë
luthienathariel: and he asked in our forum (we have a forum about Sindarin and Quenya) for translators
ArPharazonV: Oh, that should be interesting.
AriehnV has entered the room.
luthienathariel: because the lyrics are supposed to be new compositions in both languages
luthienathariel: yes, I am really excited about it
luthienathariel: I listened to his music, and I think it is really good
luthienathariel: here's his website:
karakedi25: that sounds like a remarkable project
luthienathariel: there are some fragments based on Tolkien on there
luthienathariel: it'll be a while before this is done though - he is thinking about summer 2011
luthienathariel: I was really amazed when I heard that music that you can find on the site - it is absolutely stunning
VardaValar1: Going to be tough just teaching the choir to sing those two new languages, even after working out words, translation, and music.
luthienathariel: yes
luthienathariel: but very interesting, and fun
galdorandwe: That sounds like a great plan. I can't wait to hear the finished product.
VardaValar1: I very much enjoyed the Born of Hope movie video too.
luthienathariel: I think, with the Peter Jackson movies, they did it purely phonetical
luthienathariel: yes, so did I
ArPharazonV: what exactly is Born of Hope?
luthienathariel: it is an independent movie, sort of a prequel to LOTR
luthienathariel: and it is really good, too
ArPharazonV: Oh right, think you linked it at one point.
galdorandwe: where can I view it?
luthienathariel: there is a website ..
luthienathariel: let me see
AriehnV: is it out yet?
luthienathariel: yes
VardaValar1: Fast Luthien. :-)
luthienathariel: ;-)
ArPharazonV: at least the url is easy to remember
VardaValar1: Now we'll lose you for the Tolkien chat! oops!
VardaValar1: We do have a topic for tonight. : )
luthienathariel: you can view it here:
luthienathariel: yes
Eonwe Valar: Aye, When ready, Varda has a topic.
VardaValar1: Pardon, Tulkas requested an invitation.

VardaValar1: To honor the joint birthday of Bilbo and Frodo on Sept 22 of this last week,
VardaValar1: the suggested topic is why Bilbo adopted Frodo and how that worked out for the both of them.
VardaValar1: Why did Bilbo adopt Frodo, instead of say, Meriadoc?
luthienathariel: ehm, sorry were you waiting for me?
ArPharazonV: Frodo was an orphan, for one thing.
VardaValar1: No, it's an open chat, anyone may jump in.
luthienathariel: ahh *pfew*
VardaValar1: We were hoping Tulkas would make it in, but it's not working.
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar. How was he orphaned?
karakedi25: Parents were "drownded"
ArPharazonV: His parents drowned while boating on the Brandywine, I think
luthienathariel: yes
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Drogo Baggins and Primula Brandybuck Baggins. That was the stuff of gossip, but it left Frodo alone in a place full of Brandybucks adn Tooks. And him a Baggins!
VardaValar1: *and
luthienathariel: I don't think that Merry was an orphan, was he?
karakedi25: not that I know of
VardaValar1: Merry was not an orphan, right.
VardaValar1: He had not yet inherited the Warrens.
ArPharazonV: Frodo and Bilbo were also rather oddly related from two different sides, I recall, though I remember not the exact expression
luthienathariel: maybe Bilbo was also a bit motivated by a desire to have a sort of an ally - I mean, he was regarded as a bit "strange"
VardaValar1: Saradoc Brandybuck and Esmerelda Took were Merry's parents.
AriehnV: I have heard that it was She that pushed him in and both drowned "" ... and i have heard that it was his weight that toppled the boat .... and I have heard both and worse :-)
VardaValar1: hehe - aye Arien, that sort of gossip.
luthienathariel: *She* ?
AriehnV: Primula being she and he being Drogo
luthienathariel: ah
VardaValar1: Good point, Luthien. Bilbo was known to visit with elves and dwarves!
luthienathariel: and having adventures in general
luthienathariel: very disturbing, you know ;-)
VardaValar1: We've heard tell a dragon and that wizard were involved!
ArPharazonV: Pff, Gandalf was such a disturber of the peace
luthienathariel: indeed, there you have it
AriehnV: i think Frodo and Bilbo were Cousins once removed through Primulas Mother i believe and their grandparents
AriehnV: something likie that#
galdorandwe: I believe Frodo's time with the Brandybucks and Tooks early on prooved to be crucial later on. I do not think he would have found Hobbits like Merry and Pippen (and Fatty Bolger for that matter) who would have aided him, relative or not. Sam was just just a loyal friend and employee who was so through any circumstance. Perhaps moving to Hobbiton with Bilbo was improtant for the story for many reasons, one perhaps being to meet Sam and make it so he could "inherit" the ring and thus not "steal it".
luthienathariel: remember the look on the face of that old lady who was sweeping her doorstep, at the start of the LOTR movie, when Gandalf passes her?
ArPharazonV: Anyway, if you'll excuse me for a bit I'll go follow Varda's advice and bring down the 3 books for the rest of this discussion
VardaValar1: If Bilbo had no heir, Lotho, son of Otho Sackville-Baggins and Lobelia Bracegirdle would take his home of Bag-end.
luthienathariel: yes, true also.
VardaValar1: That was a hiliarious face, and the changes of face of her husband were priceless.
luthienathariel: and the fun thing is, she's still sweeping when the hobbits return at the very end of ROTK
VardaValar1: The never-ending sweeping!
AriehnV: ah she was tough old boot Lobelia i think a bit underestimated
luthienathariel: "mumble .. lookatthatthere .. uptonogoodIsuppose … mumble … alwaysthesamewiththeseyoungsters …: etcetera
VardaValar1: heehe
luthienathariel: yes, I remember that in the book, Lobelia actually makes sort of a comeback
AriehnV: so cool to attack sharkies men
VardaValar1: I agree that Frodo's connections with the Brandybucks and Tooks were vital. Bilbo may have suspected they would sustain Frodo later, but not how much!
AriehnV: with an umbrella
ArPharazonV: Ah right, found the statement I was looking for.
luthienathariel: yay
ArPharazonV: Frodo was Bilbo's first *and* second cousin, once removed either way.
ArPharazonV: that has to be a special relationship :-)
luthienathariel: ‘I’ll give you Sharkey, you dirty thieving ruffians!’ says she, and ups with her umbrella and goes for the leader, near twice her size.
TulkasValar61 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar : )
ArPharazonV: no problem :-)
VardaValar1: Yay, Tulkas made it in!
ArPharazonV: yes, I thought that was what you meant
AriehnV: welcome tulkas :-)_
TulkasValar61: Wow look at all the people almost as if it were 1998 and this was battlenet :-)
ArPharazonV: Let's party like it's 1998?
ArPharazonV: Hmm, I was 13 then. Not much of a party-person.
AriehnV: Frodo and Bilbo both liked partying :-)
karakedi25: Most hobbits did, I think
luthienathariel: I'm off to sleep - have an early day tomorrow. Have a good night all :-)
ArPharazonV: wouldn't you make a party out of it if you shared your birthday with your guardian and housemate?
luthienathariel: no in belain le eliar!
galdorandwe: Namarie Luthien.
ArPharazonV: goodnight, Namarie!
TulkasValar61: What rhymes with Yrchs?
VardaValar1: Rest well!
Eonwe Valar: Take care Luthien.
AriehnV: i would indeed , Namarie Luthien
ArPharazonV: birch...s?
luthienathariel: meneg hennaid :-)
cipher nemo: g'night
luthienathariel has left the room.
VardaValar1: Lurks?
AriehnV: but Bilbo had a reputation for holding a good table before that
galdorandwe: Has anyone ever considerred Bilbo might have been lonely and wanted the company of a family member who wasn't after his money?
AriehnV: Mirks?
VardaValar1: That was defintely a factor, aye.
VardaValar1: Works?
VardaValar1: Kirks?
ArPharazonV: Captain Kirks?
TulkasValar61: Yrchs Lurks near the Birch,,works
ArPharazonV: hmm.. smirks!
galdorandwe: Shirks, quirks, jerks
VardaValar1: A kirk is also a very old word for a church. : )
ArPharazonV: ah right, it's "kerk" in Dutch
ArPharazonV: perks
VardaValar1: No doubt related along the language trees somewhere.
AriehnV: its scots origin btw :-)
VardaValar1: True about the table.
VardaValar1: Chekhov would tell you all things come from Russia. ;-)
AriehnV: hehe
ArPharazonV: *grin*
VardaValar1: So how did that adoption thing work out for Bilbo and Frodo?
ArPharazonV: well, the Ring passed into quite capable hands
galdorandwe: were there any record of it in Michel Delving?
VardaValar1: It was quite legal, aye.
ArPharazonV: signed with seven witnesses, I believe
AriehnV: provided seven signature in golden ink i believe?#
VardaValar1: Bilbo was annoyed with Frodo for letting Bag-end go to the Sackville-Bagginses, but Frodo got it back later, healing that one aggravation.
VardaValar1: They both worked on Bilbo's book, Frodo taking up where Bilbo left off.
AriehnV: they were fond of each other and Frodo missed him very much
galdorandwe: I can't recall where Frodo lived after his parents died and he was adopted by Bilbo. For some reason, the abandoned Smials keeps popping into my head. Any help here?
TulkasValar61: My Aunt Pat and Uncle Frank are my families Sackville-baggins
VardaValar1: Want me to strike that from the transcript, Tulkas? : )
VardaValar1: The idea of the Sackville-Bagginses tends to resonate with many families. : )
TulkasValar61: They are not likley to see, or understand
karakedi25: Galdor, he lived in Buckland
ArPharazonV: We'll find them and show it if we have to.
VardaValar1: Aye, Frodo was in Buckland.
galdorandwe: Wasn't there a former residence of a leader he stayed in?
ArPharazonV: probably Brandy Hall then
VardaValar1: He was very close friends with Merry and Pippin, both of whose fathers were leaders.
VardaValar1: Aye, he stayed in Brandy Hall.
AriehnV: aye he stayed in brandy hall i seem to remember
VardaValar1: Saradoc was leader of the Brandybucks, in the Warrens.
VardaValar1: and Pippin's father was the Thain
VardaValar1: If Bilbo had not taken Frodo under his wing, Frodo would still have had a good life.
TulkasValar61: I always figured he was sort of a Huck Finn and Pippin and Merry were like the Tom saywers.. he sort of hung around with their families
ArPharazonV: Master of Buckland, I believe his title was.
ArPharazonV: Saradoc/Meriadoc, that is
VardaValar1: But since Bilbo did take Frodo in, Frodo became the greatest force for the War of the Ring.
VardaValar1: Neat thought, Tulkas. : )
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar.
TulkasValar61: That may be a first,,snuck Samuel Clemens into a Tolkien chat
VardaValar1: yay!
VardaValar1: I'm quite fond of him too. : )
TulkasValar61: I reread his stuff as often as I do JRR's
VardaValar1: Bilbo and Frodo were central characters to two different books. Having Frodo around was a good way to let Bilbo have a form of continuance, since his big story was supposed to be done. Living happily ever after in Rivendell.
VardaValar1: What eventually happened to both Bilbo and Frodo?
AriehnV: but Bilbo had an appendix :-)
VardaValar1: True. : )
AriehnV: they both went to Valior after the War of the Ring was over
AriehnV: Valinor even
VardaValar1: Aye, went together as two of the main Ring-bearers.
VardaValar1: Bilbo took it from the Enemy and hid it until the right time had come, and Frodo took it back to the Enemy for destruction.
karakedi25: though I've read that it was just a temporary sojourn, for respite and healing, before they went on to where other mortals go
VardaValar1: Aye, Indis. :-)
galdorandwe: I seem to also recall that they could "live as long as they wished to..." but could choose when to pass on....does that sound right to anyone here? I read that a while back.
VardaValar1: Yet they had the joy of that time in Valinor without having to go through Mandos first.
AriehnV: even the Valar had not the right to take Eru's gift to the children of men , which is death
Eonwe Valar: I don't recall that, Galdor.
Eonwe Valar: Not for Frodo and Bilbo, anyway.
VardaValar1: I don't remember that, Galdor. I do remember that mortals burned out faster in Valinor, but then went on to Eru. Not a sad thing.
AriehnV: and the Hobbits were a kind of men?
ArPharazonV: Yes, Hobbits were related to Men
VardaValar1: The Hobbits were a variety of Man, aye.
VardaValar1: The going to Eru is inferred, by the way.
AriehnV: Sam later joined them i believe for a short while ...
VardaValar1: Sam was also a Ring-bearer, had earned it.
AriehnV: *nods*
VardaValar1: Sam's voluntary return of the Ring to Frodo was huge. : )
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karakedi25: One of the deepest moments in LotR for me was Sam's realization that he neither wanted nor needed the Ring--his 'plain hobbit sense'
TulkasValar61: He held it for only a few hours..compared to Bilbo and Smeagols years and Frodo's months
VardaValar1: He couldn't put his own fingers in the soil of world-wide garden, aye.
VardaValar1: That's very true too, Tulkas.
AriehnV: aye but his taking of the ring was not instigated by greed or hunger for power .. he just thought to complete , what Frodo (supposedly) was no longer able to do
karakedi25: It was already beginning to engender fantasies of power in him
VardaValar1: Aye, Arien. A wonderful reason to pick it up.
Eonwe Valar: He was holding it in Mordor as opposed to the Misty Mountains, Dale, or the Shire as well, much closer to its source.
VardaValar1: True Indis, even in that short a time.
VardaValar1: ugh, very powerful.
AriehnV: and the Ring certainly deceived and threatened the servants of the enemies
AriehnV: remember the orcs in Cirith Ungol?
Eonwe Valar: It comes down to that, when presented with the Ring's tempatation, Sam's first response to "being shown the kingdoms of the world" was to reject it.
AriehnV: well i wont reject the Temptation of the dream lords realm ,)
ArPharazonV: Sam knew what he wanted, and that was to remain Galad... I mean Sam
VardaValar1: hehehe
Eonwe Valar: And apparently to sail into the West :}
ArPharazonV: well, he did so in the end ;-)
VardaValar1: He did that, true!
AriehnV: i hope i ll be able to see you next week on my own pc with a new monitor :-) thanks for the nice discussion
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Sunny!
Eonwe Valar: Take care Arien :}
galdorandwe: So are you saying that Sam's 'simple wisdom" was something Sauron never planned for and was ultimately something the ring couldn't conquer?
Eonwe Valar: Sam definitely got to see *the* Elves :}
VardaValar1: Namarie, Arien!
Eonwe Valar: As said elsewhere in the book, Sauron measures everyone according to the scales of his own malice.
ArPharazonV: Could say that, Galdor. It's said that..
ArPharazonV: yes, what Eonwe said
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: he measures everything in terms of power and greed
VardaValar1: It's hard to measure others with something one does not have.
cipher nemo: namarie, g'night all
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
galdorandwe: Namrie.
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Rory :}
VardaValar1: Namarie!
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Eonwe Valar: It's 6 now. Shall we bang the gavel and head into Aftermeeting?
VardaValar1: Seems to be the time, aye.
Eonwe Valar: Looks like several of us are splitting off to other destinations anyway. Those who want to stay can continue chatting in Aftermeeting.
galdorandwe: I'll be leaving to eat soon, but I'll be on LoTROlater. Namrie all.
ArPharazonV: Namarie
Eonwe Valar: *Raises gavel high into the air*
ArPharazonV: *moves fingers away*
ArPharazonV: *plugs ears*
Eonwe Valar: *Brings gavel crashing down*

Eonwe Valar: *Bang* Aftermeeting :}
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VardaValar1: *jumps*
AriehnV: Namarie *bursts in a flare"
VardaValar1: As Arien settles at last, Varda brings out the stars.
Eonwe Valar: I should probably put in some extra research hours on that Elves article tonight.
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Funny how it stretches into hours quickly!

Eonwe Valar: Of interesting note, I came across something early in my research (though I didn't jot it down at the time, hehe) that says the Noldor still considered themselves Amanyar (Elves of Aman) after the Exile.
karakedi25: If it meant that they had *been* to Aman, that is true
karakedi25: Those that had never been were Umanyar
VardaValar1: I wonder if this topic should go in the Forum. I've not been putting them there as nothing seems to be added to them, and they can just go to the transcript for this much.
Eonwe Valar: Considering they turned their backs on the Valar and the Blessed Realm, it's still interesting.
VardaValar1: Aye, it is.
VardaValar1: They had come from Aman and most eventually wanted to return.
ArPharazonV: They didn't hate Aman or the Valar. I have no doubt that (at least) most of them were sorry to leave, and looked forward to being able to return.
ArPharazonV: They just had... business elsewhere.
VardaValar1: At first they thought they were being jailed and cheated, some, and some wanted their own kingdoms like Galadriel.
VardaValar1: Business elsewhere is a great way to put it!
Eonwe Valar: Aye, the lies of Melkor, which Fëanor helped feed.
VardaValar1: Feanor, who hated Morgoth, and unintentionally did what he wanted.
VardaValar1: Namarie, good folk!
Eonwe Valar: Take care Varda.
Eonwe Valar: Have fun.

ArPharazonV: Let's say Feanor and his own had gotten the Silmarilli back.
ArPharazonV: Like, within a few years, and no major casualties.
VardaValar1: o noes. Phar is getting interesting again.
ArPharazonV: Would they have returned to Aman if they had permission?
Eonwe Valar: Why? It would've meant they conquered Morgoth, pretty much.
ArPharazonV: Well, it's still paradise on earth.
Eonwe Valar: They could've set up the only realm in Arda still blessed by the Light of the Trees.
ArPharazonV: Morgoth might have been defeated in some way but his taint would last over Middle-Earth for a long time.
ArPharazonV: Yes, they could. In a fashion.
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure Fëanor could've come up with something to contain, protect, and extend their light over a given area.
ArPharazonV: But would Feanor have gotten the most out of doing so with his gems?
ArPharazonV: Would his people have wanted to return, with or without him?
Eonwe Valar: Are we assuming Kinslaying or no Kinslaying?
Eonwe Valar: After the Kinslaying, all bets for those who went on were off.
ArPharazonV: Toughie. Let's assume only the Kinslaying in Alqualonde.
ArPharazonV: You have a point.
Eonwe Valar: Further Kinslayings were near enough to the end of the First Age that they wouldn't come into the conversation.
ArPharazonV: Exactly.
Eonwe Valar: Had Fëanor recovered the Simarilli, one of two things would've happened, in my opinion:
ArPharazonV: Still, not all Noldor participated in the Kinslaying, I believe.
karakedi25: even the first kinslaying would have disqualified the Feanoreans from returning without some major penance
ArPharazonV: True, Indis. It would probably have cost them the Silmarilli anyway.
Eonwe Valar: 1.) Fëanor builds a Formenos-style fortress in Beleriand, returns to hiding the SIlmarilli from everyone. No ill comes of it specifically, but no good either.
VardaValar1: Some returned after the first Kinslaying, feeling remorse, and were taken back.
karakedi25: those never went to Middle Earth
ArPharazonV: the sons of Feanor were unable to claim the last two Silmarilli at the end of the First Age because of the Kinslayings. I wonder if they could have claimed (and held, physically) the gems after merely the first Kinslaying.
Eonwe Valar: 2.)Fëanor, even if it's an act of pride, puts the Silmarilli on display as a mark of triumph against Morgoth, boasting of his own greatness, lets their light shine over his land, etc as above.
ArPharazonV: I guess it would also depend on the manner of Morgoth's defeat. I doubt Feanor would have let Morgoth go off with a warning after he regained the Silmarils, considering what he did to his dad.
karakedi25: I don't believe that the Noldor were capable of defeating Morgoth. He was a Vala, even if corrupted.
karakedi25: Maybe with help from the other Valar, yes, but not alone.
Eonwe Valar: If Fëanor were smart, and he had the ability, he would end Morgoth right there.
ArPharazonV: If, however, after the Silmarilli were returned and Feanor's forces were relatively secured, Morgoth remained a factor in Beleriand, things might have turned out differently.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Indis.The point of the whole First Age of the Sun was that the Noldor couldn't defeat Morgoth on their own.
karakedi25: *nods*
Eonwe Valar: They could win the battles in many cases, but they couldn't win the war.
Eonwe Valar: Some battles even when they lost, they had a chance of winning until treachery was introduced.

ArPharazonV: Allright. Second scenario, a bit more detailed. We know Beren got away with a Silmaril (though it cost him his hand). What if he (or someone else) had gotten away with all 3? What if all 3 were returned to the Noldor (dead or alive Feanor) through stealth instead of war, and Morgoth's forces as it stood remained undefeated?
Eonwe Valar: By the way, shameless plug: read my story Unrest:What Evil Fears :}
VardaValar1: hehe
Eonwe Valar:
Eonwe Valar: I only mention it because it relates to the discussion :}
VardaValar1: It will take Manwe's coming down from Taniquetil to defeat Morgoth, and that is the Last Battle before we have a new Arda.
VardaValar1: And it's a good read, Eonwe. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Fëanor couldn't long hold the Silmarilli if Morgoth remained undefeated.
Eonwe Valar: Or anyone, for that matter. At least not long as reckoned by immortals.
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ArPharazonV: He probably would not have retreated with them to Valinor. Not after burning the ships, anyway.
VardaValar1: Beren tried to take another Silmaril and mysteriously his dagger nicked Morgoth and woke him.
Eonwe Valar: A few hundred years, maybe, before Morgoth amasses his armies and overruns Beleriand to regain them.
ArPharazonV: Even if the Valar would take him back.
VardaValar1: Beren was not *meant* to take a second. This does not bode well for others to try.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arwen. :-)
ArPharazonV: Nah, but we're here for speculation!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arwen.
ArPharazonV: What if he was not fated to not take all 3? :-)
Eonwe Valar: It would've been harder to carry three out, and hold only one up towards Charcaroth.
Eonwe Valar: *Carcharoth
ArPharazonV: let's just say the wolf's diet would've been 3 times more deadly.
Eonwe Valar: And Luthien would've had to lose a hand.
Eonwe Valar: Assuming he bit off each hand that was holding one before going crazy from the first burning him.
VardaValar1: and Beren dies of blood loss.
ArPharazonV: Poor Luthien. Lost her boyfriend and her own hand.
VardaValar1: Maybe if both hands were cauterized quickly.
ArPharazonV: Reminds me of the Silmarillion parody, where both Beren and Luthien ended up losing a hand.
Eonwe Valar: And assuming that the Simarilli would be held in separate hands. Not like they have a nice pretty box to put them in.
karakedi25: a pouch? that was usual gear I'd think
VardaValar1: A pouch or box could easily be made in those times.
karakedi25: people probably carried them as a matter of course
karakedi25: (pouches, that is)
Eonwe Valar: Beren seemed to think it was a better idea to carry it in his hand :}
VardaValar1: A hands-on kind of guy.
karakedi25: with only one, maybe so
ArPharazonV: well, he was kinda in a hurry

Eonwe Valar: While we're on the subject, way to help Huan save face. Huan doesn't die to any "normal" evil wolf of Morgoth's, he dies to a Berserking evil wolf of Morgoth.
VardaValar1: after beating Sauron's wolf-form!
ArPharazonV: biggest and fiercest of them all, too
Eonwe Valar: If Beren hadan't fed Carcharoth a Silmaril, he might've not had what it takes to kill Huan.
Eonwe Valar: *hadn't
ArPharazonV: So Beren killed Huan?
Eonwe Valar: He certainly put the chain of events in order :}

karakedi25: interesting that Tolkien had many things fated to happen, though he was a Christian. Not sure how those add up
ArPharazonV: Tolkien wrote a mythology. He took parts from religions and ideologies all over the place.
ArPharazonV: Impressive, but not too surprising in the end.
Eonwe Valar: Alot of the things *fated* to happen stemmed from the choices people made. Mandos didn't pronounce dooms until after the events were in motion.
karakedi25: I was thinking of Huan
ArPharazonV: Huan, Beren's knife chipping, Bilbo finding the Ring...
karakedi25: foretold that he would speak 3 times, die to the greatest wolf ever, etc.
ArPharazonV: Of course you have to realize that the Ainulindale basically wrote the grand plot for the world already before it happened. Many things were "fated" to happen because in a way, they already had.
Eonwe Valar: I'm inclined to beleive that's part of his fate for going with the Exiles.
VardaValar1: Christians have prophecies too. : )
Eonwe Valar: And aye, Varda :}
karakedi25: yes, though not usually in that detail
karakedi25: (as far as I know--I'm not Christian)
ArPharazonV: Nor am I. But I think I browsed through Revelations at one point.
ArPharazonV: End of the world prophecies fascinate me.
Eonwe Valar: Ther ewere a few about this one guy...
Eonwe Valar: But back to the larger point, Foreknowledge doesn't eliminate Free Will.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: Things that are fated to happen in Tolkien's work don't obstruct Free Will.
ArPharazonV: They *use* Free Will to their own advantage, to make themselves come true.
ArPharazonV: Devil's in the details.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, and for the bad stuff, there's chances for those about to fall into them to turn back.
Eonwe Valar: Turin had chances to avoid his fate, for example.
Eonwe Valar: Turgon had a chance to avoid his fate, but he chose to live in GOndolin until his fell down around him.
Eonwe Valar: *until it fell down around him.
ArPharazonV: That's interesting. Is it still Free Will if the choice you make is already known, but not to you?
ArPharazonV: *you* choose to do those things, not knowing that you were gonna do them all along
Eonwe Valar: It depends on how heavily those who know the answer influence your choice I suppose.
ArPharazonV: True.
Eonwe Valar: Mandos know alot of the Music. It's the reason he keeps his mouth shut unless Manë asks him to speak.
Eonwe Valar: *Manwë.
ArPharazonV: It becomes more interesting when the people who do know what choice you're gonna make are the ones that, to no avail, try to persuade you against making them.
ArPharazonV: as in the case of Turgon, I believe
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
karakedi25: Tolkien was a classicist--he was also probably thinking of hubris
Eonwe Valar: Gwindor tried to warn Turgon that if he failed to rescue Finduilas, his fate would catch up with him. We know how that turned out.
Eonwe Valar: Hubris does come into play alot, aye.
karakedi25: um..Turin?
ArPharazonV: I assume you mean Turin there :-)
Eonwe Valar: Er, Turin, aye. Fingers typed the wrong name, but my brain knew what I meant :}
karakedi25: :D
karakedi25: happens to me too
Eonwe Valar: Speaking of hubris and Turin, Hubris was practically Turin's middle name.
ArPharazonV: It becomes even more interesting if the people who know what choice you're going to make, while trying to persuade you, to no avail, to not make the choice, drive you into making the choice in the first place.
ArPharazonV: If that still makes sense.
karakedi25: afk for a while
ArPharazonV: What if Ulmo's message to Turgon made him only more adamant in staying than he would have been otherwise?
Eonwe Valar: Aye. To rephrase: their efforts to disuade you push you into the decision.
ArPharazonV: yes
Eonwe Valar: I don't think that was the case with Turgon.
ArPharazonV: It wasn't a perfect example. But it could've been.
Eonwe Valar: It seems pretty obvious to me that he heard Ulmo's warning, took a look around, decided that Doom or not, he loved his kingdom, and stayed.
ArPharazonV: I recall Turin being specially good at throwing advice to the wind just because it was advice from people he didn't really like.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, he seemed to have a Fëanorian ability to get his way too.
ArPharazonV: Even if he would've sided with his own choice with or without that advice.
Eonwe Valar: Caranthir and Celegorm turned the entire population of Nargothrond into ninjas (loving stealth tactics being the point for my choice of word). Turin comes along and turns them back into warriors.
ArPharazonV: And gets the wrath of the Faoloke on them.
Eonwe Valar: That was because of the bridge mainly. Turin builts the city's demise when he built that.
ArPharazonV: Turin's problem was that he always thought he could win, and if not, he didn't mind to die trying, even if it cost the lives of everyone around him.
ArPharazonV: That's just reckless, in my opinion.
Eonwe Valar: Well, given that he won every time so long as his fate didn't come back to bite him, he was somewhat justified.
ArPharazonV: Eh, good point.
ArPharazonV: He let his victories get to his head.
Eonwe Valar: His fate didn't come back to bite him it seemed until everyone in the area knew who he was, and then all bets were off.
ArPharazonV: Heh.
Eonwe Valar: The lesson to take fro mthat is, as soon as you hear Turin is the awesome guy giving you all the victories, it's time to encourage him to move on.
ArPharazonV: Or run for your life.
Eonwe Valar: If you can.
ArPharazonV: Just follow the river south. Everyone else did.
ArPharazonV: "Heeeey, Turin is the guy who's been leading us to victory all these times." "..Wait, wasn't he the guy that got Nargothrond destroyed?"
Eonwe Valar: You'd think after a few of Turin's campaigns (since they'd obviously heard of his name) people would realize Turin's aid would be a double-edged sword.
ArPharazonV: In that case it was a good thing his name only came out after he was already liked by everyone.
VardaValar1: But it won't happen to us!
Eonwe Valar: Yeah, that's true.
Eonwe Valar: Both of the above :}
VardaValar1: He's our friend, he'll consider us!
Eonwe Valar: he seems to love his anonymity, but once his names out, he decides he should run the show.
Eonwe Valar: *but once his name's out
VardaValar1: My way or the highway?
Eonwe Valar: Seemingly, his way *and* a highway, given the size of the bridge he had built for Nargothrond :}
ArPharazonV: I'm starting to see similarities between Turin's sword and Frostmourne.
ArPharazonV: And Turin and Arthas, for that matter.
ArPharazonV: Buuuut let's not go there.
Eonwe Valar: Then again, he may have a "blaze of glory" attitude, deciding that once his name is revealed, his fate *will* catch up with him, so he wants to make it the biggest fight he can.
VardaValar1: Has to be quick, he figures?
ArPharazonV: "Now you know my name, you're fated to die before long. But let's get this place militarized and hold out as long as possible." And then that only helps to bring his fate sooner.
Eonwe Valar: In the end, his death is rather anti-climactic. He kills himself with his own sword.
ArPharazonV: It's interesting how the rejection of his fate only seems to hurry it along. Poor man never stood a chance.
TulkasValar61: well folks have to say good night, was afk for supper and a hot tub..Scrolled back to see what I had missed, Have a pleasant discussion
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Tulkas :}
TulkasValar61 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Well, when you have a Vala gunnig for you, it's rarely easy on you.
Eonwe Valar: *gunning

VardaValar1: Belated namarie, Tulkas
VardaValar1: mmm hot tub.
VardaValar1: Namarie from me too. I'll probably be on again later in LotRO.
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karakedi25: Thanks for a good discussion :-)
karakedi25: logging out now
ArPharazonV: yes, I should be going too.
karakedi25: namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie
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Eonwe Valar: Take care.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending
ArPharazonV: sent
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
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