Valar Guild

October 24, 2010 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon, Menelvagor, and Varda.

Attending: (10)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, fladrifv, Galdor-(V)/galdorandwe, Gil-galad-(V)/Xseanzee disco, Menelvagor Valar, mimvalarguild, pallandovalar, VardaValar1 (presiding).

Meeting begins
    Gwaihir and Gilraen
       Runs, festival.
       Mim's account was hacked.
    Eve Online:
       Two new members for the Valar Guild corporation.
    Diablo 3:
       New character type announced.
    Eonwe's topic: the three Kinslayings.
    Link to a site with good elvish.
    Fine-tuning a rule for the Places trivia game.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
fladrifv has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
fladrifv: hoom boom aiya
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Gil-Galad.
Xseanzee disco: hey : )
Eonwe Valar: Been a while :}
Eonwe Valar: How goes it?
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
mimvalarguild has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar, Eonwe, Flad, and Gil-galad!
VardaValar1: Aiya Mim :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
mimvalarguild: Aiya Varda and guildies
ArPharazonV: Aiya, you're all early, I'm still fighting Lich King, but we're just about to wipe.
VardaValar1: Just now time. Aye, we're doing better than usual.
fladrifv: the legion once again stronger then the golden one
ArPharazonV: Best attempt 24% getting closer
VardaValar1: Good luck Phar!
ArPharazonV: ..Lich King is not Legion!
ArPharazonV: you've played Warcraft III, you should know :P
fladrifv: was
fladrifv: :-)
ArPharazonV: Already stopped being so when he merged with Arthas. TFT was Legion vs Lich King.
fladrifv: wanst wow a prequal to tft?
Eonwe Valar: No.
ArPharazonV: no, it's 4 years after tft
fladrifv: *waves the white flag* :-)
Eonwe Valar: WoW takes place 4 years after WC3: The Frozen Throne.
Eonwe Valar: Or rather, it begins 4 years after.
ArPharazonV: yep, and canonically about a year goes by for each expansion
Xseanzee disco has left the room.
fladrifv: falls back to his other point the golden one fell
fladrifv: :-)
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Poor Gil-galad just watched his computer unplug and eat a page of lab report, so he be a bit afk for a while! Good luck to you!
VardaValar1: Heya Arien. :-)
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
AriehnV: Aiya Varda and rest :-)
VardaValar1: Welcome back
Xseanzee disco: : )

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: We are amazingly still here and going strong after 13 years. Congratulations to you all!
VardaValar1: It's been amazing watching everyone just get better and better. : )
VardaValar1: Going to college, getting married, getting jobs, coming to Valar... :-)
ArPharazonV: I feel stagnated. I was in college when I joined and I still am.
VardaValar1: Any membership news?
VardaValar1: Go for that PhD. ;-)
ArPharazonV: A different study, but still!
VardaValar1: Six or seven degrees. ;-)
AriehnV: hehe i am banned from studying or a further school from my parents ^^
AriehnV: unless i can finance it myself and there is little hope of that
VardaValar1: Have to pay your own way, and yes, it can happen. Work for it, grants, some jobs pay for college.
AriehnV: aye but what i would want is a gaielic degree and work maybe for Coa
AriehnV: Commnunn na Gaidhlig or Sabhal Mor
ArPharazonV: I'm already paying for it from my own account. Apparently it's tax-friendlier. But I have enough to finish this year anyway :P
VardaValar1: See if they'll help finance your degree.
VardaValar1: Nice, Phar. : )
VardaValar1: If there's no further membership news?
AriehnV: dont know whether there is hope there and there been many funds cut and Gaelic was amongst them
AriehnV: anyhow :-) just have to toodle around for a bit heeh
VardaValar1: :-)
AriehnV: carry on :-)

VardaValar1: Web News:
VardaValar1: Sorry, I've not done much with the Tolkien Site this last week, and probably not much this upcoming week.
VardaValar1: We have a lot of wedding stuff going on.
VardaValar1: The wedding is next weekend. Family is coming in from all over, but that's Membership news, pardon. : )
VardaValar1: Question for you folks
VardaValar1: We had a link to some pictures of our Anniversary fireworks in LotRO. Are you having trouble seeing it? We're considering putting them elsewhere.
VardaValar1: It's the link on the News page.
ArPharazonV: Dropmocks?
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: that some sort of imagebucket thing?
VardaValar1: That kind of thing, yes.
ArPharazonV: imageshack/photobucket, sorry, I don't think imagebucket exists.
VardaValar1: That concept. : )
Eonwe Valar: Give it a minute, I'm sure it will now :}
ArPharazonV: haha
VardaValar1: Likely. : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe, do you have any web news?
Eonwe Valar: None for the moment.
VardaValar1: Thanks. He's always working on stuff though. : )

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: LotRO has been lively. We have 12 right now in our friend and kin channel.
VardaValar1: For the Monday run, we tried the new high level Great Barrows run, completing the first two legs and making everone on the run eligible to run the third one to the main boss without doing those first two legs again.
VardaValar1: The Wednesday run, we tried out the new Harvest Festival, including the Haunted Cellar. A guide is already up for it, and recommended by Turbine.
mimvalarguild: the haunted burrow is great fun :-)
VardaValar1: I scribbled down my own map going through, but it's not as fancy as that!
VardaValar1: Mim, would you like to tell a little about it?
mimvalarguild: I should also say that me, Nimrodel, Gildor, Beregond and Melkor attempted Fornost on level and made it about half way, my first time and a lot of fun
VardaValar1: Excellent!
VardaValar1: That's a long run to make.
mimvalarguild: Turbine did a great job with the haunted burrow, lots of trickery, effects and scares like a real fairground haunted house!
mimvalarguild: If you are claustrophic or get dizzy easily I would avoid, I needed a break after a few runs through the burrow
VardaValar1: I had no problem, but some folks do.
VardaValar1: We do have a lot of runs of which I'm unaware, so thank you for mentioning.
VardaValar1: phone
VardaValar1: back
mimvalarguild: It was nice to see some of the guild running earlier content, it will be a while till i hit 65
VardaValar1: We do try to run content from all over, depending on who's around and what mains need work.
mimvalarguild: I reached 40 today so thats getting closer :-)
VardaValar1: Main instance days are Monday and Wednesday and can be anywhere.
VardaValar1: Congratulations!

VardaValar1: Moving on to WoW, Eonwe, do you have a report?
Eonwe Valar: Nothign to report, no, besides that Hallow's End continues, as does the cog bug.
VardaValar1: What is the cog bug?
Eonwe Valar: Mouse over an interactive object and you get a cog showing you can interact wit hit. Problem is, this also has a good chance of freezing you right now.
mimvalarguild: Blizzard confirmed that my WoW account was hacked this week so that was a lesson learnt.
ArPharazonV: Very painful in the Horseman-fight, everyone's scared to click the pumpkin and summon him ;-)
ArPharazonV: Ouch, sorry to hear that, Mim.
VardaValar1: That's been happening a lot to us.
VardaValar1: Check your email carefully. Hit the Details on the bottom.
VardaValar1: Change your password.
mimvalarguild: Thankfully I only lost a lvl 14 so I had not invested much time in WoW but was thinking of joining for the next expansion.
ArPharazonV: We even had it in our raid, Eonwe. One person crashed from mousing over the fish feast food :-)
Eonwe Valar: Make sure you're not going to questionable websites, and remember Blizzard with NEVER ask for your password. If they needed to access your account, they can do it just fine without your help :}
mimvalarguild: all good info Eonwe
VardaValar1: and run a virus checker, especially for keyloggers.
ArPharazonV: Authenticator might help, though I've not yet gotten one myself. Just seems so much hassle to log in.
Eonwe Valar: The most recent scams I recall have involved whispering in game you saying either you've won something, or that your account is in danger of being suspended, both telling you to go to a website to confirm your information.
Eonwe Valar: I report any of those I get.
ArPharazonV: There's also emails going around saying the same thing. Though I haven't had them in a while.
Eonwe Valar: I haven't got many, fortunately.
Eonwe Valar: I haven't seen an e-mail like that in forever. I also don't use my WoW e-mail for anything but WoW.
VardaValar1: That's probably the best idea, Eonwe. Get a separate email just for WoW.
pallandovalar has entered the room.
mimvalarguild: I will try that next time too
pallandovalar: Aiay
VardaValar1: Aiya Pallando! : )
ArPharazonV: It wasn't my WoW-email though.
ArPharazonV: And it wasn't just mail about my warcraft account, I've had Aion-mails and Guildwars-mails as well. I don't even have the former game.
ArPharazonV: I'm wondering if it comes from being a member of some gaming forum or something.
VardaValar1: Didn't seem to be.
VardaValar1: Do we have any more WoW news?
VardaValar1: If not, Pallando has some Eve news for us. : )
ArPharazonV: I'm at 19/20 different masks now, been trick or treating all week :-)
Eonwe Valar: Nothing for the moment.
ArPharazonV: Of course the last one is going to take forever!
ArPharazonV: But I have one more week to go.
ArPharazonV: Other than that, no WoW news.
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar.

VardaValar1: Pallando, go ahead.
pallandovalar: Proud to announce that Arien has become the first member of the EveO branch besides me in the "official" Valar Guild corporation. [V G] Might be picking up a second soon.
VardaValar1: Fantastic!
VardaValar1: Congrats to both Arien and Pallando. : )
ArPharazonV: Congrats!
ArPharazonV: hmm, how many MMOs does that make for Arien?
AriehnV: hehe aye i am on a trial account for Eve atm
mimvalarguild: I will join once I get the game re-installed since I recently got a new comp
ArPharazonV: WoW, LotrO, GW, and now EveO? :-)
AriehnV: i ve got rid of GW actually to make space for Eve
ArPharazonV: Aw!
VardaValar1: Congrats on the new computer, Mim!
AriehnV: am on a trial account at the moment and considering a taking turn option lol , one month Eve and LotrO and one month WoW and Lotro , grin
mimvalarguild: with Eve your character can still progress if you are not logged in which is great
pallandovalar: hey, don't forget SC II. :p
AriehnV: aye indeed , the skills train without the player being online
mimvalarguild: there are some great API addons for EvE to fit ships and set skill training, I wasted many an hour (*ahem) at work with those
ArPharazonV: Hmm, too bad you can't work together with the Europeans in SCII, Pallando :-)
pallandovalar: I know. Bloody battlenet .5
AriehnV: at work .. tsk .. bah its the same with WoW .. i really feel like ganking Battlenet for that
AriehnV: i really hate this separation
AriehnV: gets my dander up ^^
mimvalarguild: SC2 is another game I should get back into ,never finished the single player campaign
VardaValar1: That's one thing D1 had over all the current games. It let us join up easily from all over. Hard to believe we've only gone backwards from that. Luckily there's a fix for it in LotRO. : )
AriehnV: true enough :-)
mimvalarguild: back later
VardaValar1: Bye Mim!
ArPharazonV: The first Bnet allowed cooperation. I'm sure it'll come in a future patch.
AriehnV: Namarie Mim :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie Mim!
AriehnV: lets hope so Phara , lets hope so
VardaValar1: Eonwe heard news about D3.
AriehnV: there always is hope ...
pallandovalar: That's all for my weekly eve-plugging. Join now, we have active people! I can give you gifts! It's lovely! There are space bunnies!
pallandovalar: ..well the last part wasn't true.
AriehnV: hehe at least some hopping Minmatar Rookies ^^
pallandovalar: Matari Victor!
AriehnV: Solshara is her name
AriehnV: from Gaidhlig , solshar .. spark

VardaValar1: Eonwe, would you like to tell us what you heard about Diablo 3?
Eonwe Valar: Sure.
Eonwe Valar: As you may know, Blizzcon is this week, and BLizzard has taken the opportunity to announce a new character class for Diablo 3: the Demon HUnter.
ArPharazonV: ..Right. People have been asking for a Demon Hunter class in WoW for years, and they put it in Diablo!
Eonwe Valar: for those interested.
Eonwe Valar: There was also alot more info for D3, but I'll let the interested parties take a look.
galdorandwe has entered the room.
galdorandwe: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: That's all that I have on D3.
VardaValar1: Thanks Eonwe
VardaValar1: Aiya Galdor
VardaValar1: Fladrif, did you want to give your report now?
AriehnV: i ve heard that Diablo was a spurned version of WoW or the other way round dpending .. but that i guess is another story which doesnt belong here ^^ just a genereal point of interest
AriehnV: go on Ent :-)
VardaValar1: Diablo was way before WoW.

fladrifv: *steps on stage*
VardaValar1: *strengthens the creaky stage*
fladrifv: I signed up for the next chess round
fladrifv: so all who got tired of the old reports
AriehnV: "lightens the stage up"
fladrifv: stay tuned for more
ArPharazonV: Look forward to new ones!
VardaValar1: Egad! Go Flad!
ArPharazonV: So. A new tournament then? You need to defend your title?
fladrifv: no I will do a step up
fladrifv: need to show the advanced group that they can not toss with an intermediate player :-)
ArPharazonV: Ahh. So that was just an intermediate contest.
AriehnV: its like footlbal leagues a bit ? first regional leage then national then second then premier?
fladrifv: yes, well just
fladrifv: only 1600 others
VardaValar1: No beginner contest?
fladrifv: that is 3 steps down
fladrifv: the idea is they have tournaments so ppl play against ppl of their own ranking
ArPharazonV: leagues
fladrifv: those ones with a too high ranking cannot join it
fladrifv: for sl things have been a bit slow, and im currently starting the openlife project again
fladrifv: by beta testing for an openlife fork
fladrifv: *hears the reinforcements giving up and steps swiftly off stage*
AriehnV: an Ent being hasty ? :-)
VardaValar1: Open life project?
fladrifv: its the opensource edition of the secondlife server
fladrifv: basically given you supreme powers

VardaValar1: Let's move on to Tolkien now.
VardaValar1: Eonwe and I have been having a side chat, and it would be great to include you all.
ArPharazonV: Sure. Don't have any other gaming myself, I mostly kept WoW on for an hourly visit to the innkeepers, so no SCII or GW.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, whenever you're ready, go ahead.
mimvalarguild: back
Eonwe Valar: I suppose we have to chats really. One I expect won't take long, and has some relevance to the latter, if not an exact connection.
Eonwe Valar: *two chats
VardaValar1: Both good ones. : )
mimvalarguild: did anyone see my trivia question? [Note: side window chat; see the Forum for several ongoing trivia games.]
Eonwe Valar: The first topic I would like to discussion is the Kinslaying(s). Sometimes, when reading certain things, I get the impression that some people boil it down to just an Elf version of "Ape shall never kill Ape," to use an apt "Planet of the Apes" analogy.
Eonwe Valar: So, I would like to discuss it in a somewhat more structured format that we usually do for chats, laying out the history and the aftereffects of the three kinslayings of the Elves, bracketing by a series of primary questions.
Eonwe Valar: So, to start: Who were the perpetrators of the three Kinslayings, and who were the victims?
Eonwe Valar: Elves and Elves is a bit general and obvious :}
ArPharazonV: Okay, let's start with the first one.
Eonwe Valar: That was the first one :}
ArPharazonV: Noldor, Feanor, sons of Feanor, and their followers were the perpetrators, the target was Alqualonde and the Teleri guarding their boats.
ArPharazonV: The first Kinslaying, I meant ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Gotcha :}
Eonwe Valar: There were also those among Fingolfin's group, the guys at the forefront.
Eonwe Valar: (Forefront of Fingolfin's group, of course)
ArPharazonV: They participated but did not know the full story of the assault, and regretted their actions later, I believe?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
galdorandwe: I recall Feanor trying ot take the boats...and Galadriel and Celeborn defending the Teleri (in UT)...the rest if a bit fuzzy...other than Galadriel taking the long way to Middle earth instead of the boats.
galdorandwe: I have not read Sil. in a few year, sadly. Perhaps that will be next after my run through Lost Tales 1&2, which I'm rereading now :-)
Eonwe Valar: I don't recall exactly the UT version, Celeborn she met in Doriath. Otherwise, he would've been a Noldo.
Eonwe Valar: *but Celeborn etc
VardaValar1: Fingolfin's group came late to the fight. They thought the Teleri had attacked Feanor's group to force them to remain in Valinor, and came to help. They found out late that it was Feanor's group that attacked, and many repented, returning to Valinor.
ArPharazonV: There were many theories about Celeborn and Galadriel meeting.
galdorandwe: UT tells it a bit different. There are SEVERAL conflicting items in their history. UT covers them.
ArPharazonV: The one in Alqualonde had Celeborn among the Teleri, as a kinsman of the king I believe.
pallandovalar: I remember Finrod & co were not part of the kinslaying, but I might be wrong - I'm remembering this from that really long fanfic.
ArPharazonV: And I think you, Varda, for putting the detail in my statement earlier :-)
galdorandwe: There is an account of them defending the Teleri during the kinslaying.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, we have the perpetrators of the first Kinslaying. What about the other two?
ArPharazonV: Well, the perpetrators of the latter two Kinslayings were always the sons of Feanor, though I believe diminished in number by the end.
pallandovalar: next one would be feanor against his own, correct?
ArPharazonV: The first target was Dior, the second was his daughter. The general target was the Silmaril.
galdorandwe: Were the Noldor "cursed" before the kinslaying or after? I seem to recall the Valar not wnating them to leave Valinor and getting upset about it.
ArPharazonV: The second Kinslaying took place in Doriath, already diminished after the war with the Dwarves and the fall of the Girdle of Melian, while the third was in the Havens of Sirion, where the refugees of hte second had fled.
Eonwe Valar: On a larger scale than just Dior and Elwing, the victims were the rebuilding Doriath and the Havens.
pallandovalar: I hold that they were never cursed, but either way the Doom was pronounced before the first kinslaying
Eonwe Valar: The Valar warned them against leaving, but said "freely ye came and freely ye shall depart"
galdorandwe: Doom... that's whatI was meaning
VardaValar1: What Eonwe said.
Eonwe Valar: So now that we have the main players, What caused these Kinslayings?
galdorandwe: I thought the first one was for transport out of Valinor.
pallandovalar: As the immediate objective, yes, but it wasn't what CAUSED it.
Eonwe Valar: Ultimately, it was to regain the Silmarilli. That was the endgame scenario, to regain the Silmarilli.
Eonwe Valar: The direct cause of the first was that Fëanor wanted the Teleri's ships, but the Teleri wouldn't give them up. Fëanor decided to take them, and his men got thrown off boats.
Eonwe Valar: When the Noldor got tired of being thrown off boats, swords were drawn, and since the Noldor were better armed, they were victorious.
ArPharazonV: The direct cause of the second and third was that Dior/Elwing had the Silmaril, but weren't to happy to release them to the Sons of Noldor at metaphorical gunpoint.
ArPharazonV: But no doubt you will add detail :-)
Eonwe Valar: The Teleri drove the Noldor back three times before Fingon came up with fresh troops to the battle, and Noldo and Teler alike were slain.
VardaValar1: Mandos's Doom number 1: Feanor had drawn sword against his brother in the presence of Manwe, and was temporarily banished from Tirion, but not Valinor.
VardaValar1: Eonwe's Warning from Manwe: He warned Feanor that the quest was folly leading to evil Feanor could not foresee. The Valar would neither aid nor hinder the quest. But Feanor himself was banished. Feanor laughed and said he would at least do hurt to Melkor and the march continued.
VardaValar1: Mandos' Doom number 2: Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains....Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman....
VardaValar1: (Short versions)
pallandovalar: I always interepreted Mandos' Doom as not a curse but a foretelling.
VardaValar1: That is what Doom means, aye. Destiny.
VardaValar1: On the House of Feanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from theWest unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also.
VardaValar1: That part sounds less friendly.
VardaValar1: Pardon for the wall of text.
Eonwe Valar: Eh, this is the Valar Guild :} We can read here :}
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: If you want the whole texts, they are on that link.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: The second and third Kinslayings were more directly caused because of the Oath: a Silmaril was in the hands of someone they could actually take it from, so the Sons of Fëanor acted. Phar's comments more or less described the rest.
Eonwe Valar: Dior's sons were left to die in the wilderness because of it.
Eonwe Valar: Elrond and Elros fared better, fortunately.
VardaValar1: Maedhros was having some difficulty with how badly things were turning out.
AriehnV: (just has to listen to "Nightfall" atm ... )
Eonwe Valar: So, since we've dug a tiny bit into it, what was the ultimate outcome of these kinsalyings? How did they effect the hirstory of Arda and of the Elves?
VardaValar1: It brought elves back from Valinor with greater knowledge and ability that were added into the general population.
VardaValar1: But it made them all go to the Sindarin language.
galdorandwe: On thing that eventually came about was the chaining of Melko. I believe that if the kinslaying had originally not occurred, Melkor might not have been defeated by the host of Valinor.
Eonwe Valar: All of the Eldar in Midde-Earth, anyway.
VardaValar1: Maybe the elves of Valinor got the desire to rule out of their system so they could be more at peace.
pallandovalar: Well, if we subscribe to the Beren theory of history, the ultimate cause was so that Beren would rescue the Simaril from Morgoth...
VardaValar1: Good one, Pallando.
pallandovalar: er, ultimate effect
Eonwe Valar: Had it not been for the Kinslaying, the Noldor might've arrived in Beleriand more unified and in greater number, and the Oath may not have had such a severe effect.
ArPharazonV: and prevented the other Kinslayings?
VardaValar1: One silmaril went with Earendil into the morning star.
VardaValar1: Two of the silmarils were lost.
Eonwe Valar: It was the Oath, not specifically the Kinslaying at Alqualonde, that tied the Valar's hands.
AriehnV: was it light of that one that was caught in the Phial Galadriel gave to Frodo?
VardaValar1: True about the Oath.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Arien.
VardaValar1: The light of Earendil's star (silmaril) was in that Phial, aye.
VardaValar1: Talk about power. :-)
ArPharazonV: so the power of the trees went from trees to silmaril to phial? :-)
VardaValar1: True
galdorandwe: Here's a side question related to Varda's last comment about power...would Ungoliant have actually been able to devour such gems?
VardaValar1: and was used against a Child of Ungoliant.
ArPharazonV: Hmm, good catch.
VardaValar1: Morgoth seemed to think she could.
Eonwe Valar: She devoured the light of the Trees, so yes.
ArPharazonV: Hah. Would've been something if Shelob devoured the Phial.
Eonwe Valar: Might've given her some indigestion at first, but Ungoliant could've got them down.
pallandovalar: hiiiii!
galdorandwe: which Silmaril was wreslted away from Melkor's crown?
galdorandwe: wrestled, reather
Eonwe Valar: the "a" silmaril :}
Eonwe Valar: It's not indicated there was a difference between them.
VardaValar1: Just one of the three on the crown.
Eonwe Valar: Only their ultimate destinations.
ArPharazonV: Wasn't it the biggest, central one?
ArPharazonV: I thought I remember something like that from Beren and Luthien.
Eonwe Valar: I was of the impression they were all of the same size.
VardaValar1: Time to flip through books. : )
VardaValar1: Sil, "Of Beren and Luthien"
ArPharazonV: Might as well. BRB.
pallandovalar: gg1
Eonwe Valar: "As three great jewels they were in form." is all it says about size in "Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor."
pallandovalar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Hmm. It appears not to be in the published version of the tale, so if it ever was there, it's not canon. Point conceded.
VardaValar1: In the chapter I just mentioned, no comment is made of a difference between the Silmarils.
VardaValar1: What a movie they could make just of Beren and Luthien.
mimvalarguild has left the room.
galdorandwe: if the light of the Silmarils was so strong, wouldn't one be able to see the light emmanating from under the sea if one cast it into the I recall one might have had happen to it?
VardaValar1: It went a long way down, and that's a good point, considering just the Elendilmir.
VardaValar1: I suspect that Ulmo would eventually have come into possession of the silmaril in the ocean.
Eonwe Valar: So, final question: What kind, if any, impact did these have on Elves in general? Is there anything on the kinslayings that indicates "Elf shall never kill Elf?"
ArPharazonV: Elf vs Elf was already frowned upon when Feanor took up a sword against his brother.
VardaValar1: (We need an article on the silmarils, none present in our Encyclopedia.)
VardaValar1: Thingol was so incensed about the Kin-slaying that he refused to allow Quenya to be spoken in Middle-earth, and was unwilling to let any of the Feanoriansonto his land.
VardaValar1: It made a terrible division.
VardaValar1: We know the Teleri fought back. They killed elves.
VardaValar1: Surely they fought back at the mouth of the Sirion.
Eonwe Valar: We know the Doom of Mandos said "slain unrighteously."
VardaValar1: So in defense, it is not considered unrighteous.
Eonwe Valar: We know Turgon had set a penalty of Death on those who came upon his kingdom and did not agree to remain there forever. It certainly occured to him than an Elf could've stumbled upon it.
VardaValar1: Dior himself killed some of the Feanorians in defense, and it was not considered wrong.
VardaValar1: You've proven your point that sometimes an elf may kill another elf.
VardaValar1: If orcs were considered a twisted and ruined version of elves, but were out to kill "normal" elves, that could only be defense.
VardaValar1: I mean, if elves killed orcs. heh.
ArPharazonV: Eol was an elf, and Turgon didn't spare him, if I recall.
AriehnV: as i recall Eol messed it up himelf a bit
Eonwe Valar: My point, in part, was that, aye, but larger, that the tragedy of the Kinslayings was not *merely* (and I say that not to detract from the tragedy of the act) because Elves killed Elves, but the "why"s, the motivations.
VardaValar1: Aye, and that death was done in accordance with law. Eol tried to kill Maeglin and hit the lady instead.
VardaValar1: Aye,
VardaValar1: Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: As I said, sometimes, from reading some things, I get the feeling that that fact is lost, and all that remains is that Elves killed Elves, and that was horrible.
VardaValar1: It was, but it paled beside the why.
VardaValar1: To kill a potentially immortal being? What a waste.
AriehnV: well i ll only hit the pillow now ^^ , interesting and fascinating though tonights discussion is :-\
VardaValar1: Rest well, Arien!
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well, Arien.
AriehnV: Namarie Valarites :-) be well
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ArPharazonV: so did we get to the second topic yet? :-)
VardaValar1: Nope. :-) We were moving towards it.
ArPharazonV: Ah
VardaValar1: The most important part was done.
Eonwe Valar: So everyone's still up for a second topic?
VardaValar1: We need to remember that it's not necessarily evil for one elf to kill another or to be traumatized over it. There are times when it's necessary.

VardaValar1: I need a quick break, will scroll. And yes. :-)
Eonwe Valar: It's almost like Elves and Humans are similar. Fancy that.
VardaValar1: We have Phar, Eonwe, Flad, Gil-galad, and me. But Gil needs to leave after his paper is done, two are nearly asleep.
Eonwe Valar: So who does that leave for the discussion? :}
Eonwe Valar: I assume Phar and Fladrif are the nearly asleep ones? :}
fladrifv: namarie
ArPharazonV: namarie Flad
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Fladrif :}
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Menel.
VardaValar1: back for a second
Menelvagor Valar: in aftermeeting yet?
Eonwe Valar: Btw, I'm been meaning to ask if you got that e-mail about the two boards on the Forum :}
VardaValar1: Eowyn, Arwen, and Schlep and Bilbo just arrived [in real life at the house, then more arrived after that.]
Eonwe Valar: I suppose we should be. Seems discussion is ended.
Menelvagor Valar: I have two points I'd like to add if I can :-)
VardaValar1: We were about to start another Tolkien chat, but we ran out of people.
VardaValar1: I'll be scrolling.

Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel* Aftermeeting now :}
Menelvagor Valar: first is I found a Tolkien fan site, which seems to be reliable where lore is concerned, they have a section for both books and movies, and upon browsing through them, it seemed to pan out.
VardaValar1: url please
Menelvagor Valar: The site also has a set of lists for "common" English names translated into ... Sindarin I think, but unsure, might be Quenya.
Menelvagor Valar:
VardaValar1: We have that
Menelvagor Valar: Okies, hadn't come across it yet, but then again, haven't particularly searched through the links yet :-)
VardaValar1: Aye, some good stuff
Menelvagor Valar: 2nd point is a question which I posed in the places name game.
Menelvagor Valar: Are regions / countries allowed, or are they not?
VardaValar1: Ancalagon says he's found it hard to come online since he got his new job. He's in LotRO now.
VardaValar1: afk
VardaValar1: I think it's ok.
Menelvagor Valar: And does anyone know who Narvi is exactly? I found a reference to him, but haven't had the time to explore more fully.
Eonwe Valar: He carved the doors on the west side of Moria.
Eonwe Valar: I think I asked that as trivia at the Anniversary meeting.
Menelvagor Valar: but is he dwarven?
Menelvagor Valar: and what exactly was his profession?
Eonwe Valar: He is a Dwarf, and if he had to have a profession, I'd say door-carver, if not stone-carver. I think Artificer might be a better term, if memory serves.
Eonwe Valar: He's a Dwarf. They're all smiths and miners :}
Menelvagor Valar: not necessarily :-)
Menelvagor Valar: they also have warriors :-)
Eonwe Valar: Eh, close enough :} They don't even bother with growing their own food, when they can avoid it :}
ArPharazonV: Hmm. Does chiselling small pieces of stone out of a large door fall under mining?
Eonwe Valar: You can be a wariror and a blacksmithing miner :}
Eonwe Valar: *warrior
Menelvagor Valar: true, true.
Menelvagor Valar: is good mining the materials and smithing your own armor and weapons :-D
Menelvagor Valar: especially if you're good at the second :-D
Eonwe Valar: Thrain said to Thorin as much after the Battle of Azanulbizar, that the hammer will keep the arm strong until it can wield larger weapons again or some such.
ArPharazonV: Mining seems such a tedious work. All that rock you have to go through to find the good stuff, and then you need to work on that too before you can use it...
ArPharazonV: I wonder how people even discovered it.
Eonwe Valar: By finding some above ground first, of course :}
Eonwe Valar: Get the easy stuff first, then work for the rest once you know it's there :}
ArPharazonV: Hehe, true. But stumbling on the purification of ore? must've been quite a discovery!
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Eonwe Valar: That's what competition can do for you :} First guy to make good ore can make better tools and weapons and make more money selling them :}
ArPharazonV: "Hey, you see this rock?" "Looks like any other rock" "Yeah, but if you do this and this, it becomes shiny metal!"
Eonwe Valar: "My copper knife can cut through STEAK!" :}
ArPharazonV: "Pfah! I *invented* steak!"
Eonwe Valar: ...I think Gwaihir's at Blizzcon right now at least. I think I recall him saying he and Gilraen were going.
ArPharazonV: well, I'll save and send transcript