Valar Guild

November 7, 2010 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (9)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv, galdorandwe, Gilraen-(V)/Iryenth, GwaihirValar, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    Daylight Savings Time ends in the USA.
    New story by Branwyn-(T)
    Bible Online
    Good and evil.
    Overall guild RP (not the forum RP). Email Varda if you wish to add to the discussion or say aye or nay.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
AriehnV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Iryenth has entered the room.
AriehnV: heya there aiya all :-)
ArPharazonV: Yes, no post yet. Mebbe I'll make it during this meeting.
Eonwe Valar: We'll begin the meeting shortly.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's begin.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Varda couldn't make it tonight.
Eonwe Valar: You all did make it :}
Eonwe Valar: Daylight Savings time has ended for the US.
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news?
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Looks like Varda made it after all :}
VardaValar1: Aiya. Back and forth from the keyboard.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda :}
ArPharazonV: Aiya

Eonwe Valar: If there's no more Membership news, then on we go to Web:
VardaValar1: I have news there.
Eonwe Valar: ok
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead.
VardaValar1: In the Tolkien Site under Stories,
VardaValar1: we now have "Beruthiel's Kittens" by Branwyn-(T).
VardaValar1: It's a short story set during the LotR in the Houses of Healing.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Varda :}
VardaValar1: My pleasure. : )

Eonwe Valar: I have no web news for the moment, so on to Gaming:

Eonwe Valar: WoW:
karakedi25 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: There's a new community Site for WoW.
karakedi25: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: All attention will be moving to the new site eventually, so you should probably get used to it now :}
galdorandwe has entered the room.
galdorandwe: Aiya
karakedi25: afk for a few minutes, and aiya Galdor
ArPharazonV: Same style as the Starcraft II sites. Don't really like the style compared to the old one. But I guess we'll have to get used to it!
Eonwe Valar: To see the new site, go to :
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I like the old way better too, but whatever :}
GwaihirValar: Its a much more efficient website I've noticed. My laptop loads the sc2 website and forums a LOT faster and more smoothly than the wow ones.
GwaihirValar: and for the brief period where my work didn't have them blocked, it did as well
Eonwe Valar: Hehe
Eonwe Valar: Also in WoW news, the Elemental Invasions have begun.
Eonwe Valar: The Twilight's Hammer cult has begun its machinations. You can help deal with the Twilight's Hammer via a quest line in the capital city of your faction (Stormwind/Orgrimmar)
karakedi25: bacl
Eonwe Valar: There's also a Feat of Strength you can get, if you destroy one of each type of elemental rift. It's not quite that easy to do right now, but from the way it sounds, give it a week or two and you'll be able to get it done easily.
AriehnV: cute story
ArPharazonV: Easiest way is to camp a known spot for up to an hour :P
GwaihirValar: well they spawn prettymuch every hour
ArPharazonV: Exactly, and always in the same places.
Eonwe Valar: Or as one of the CMs on the blizzard forums said "If you don't like the idea of camping elementals for a feat of strength, wait a bit until the elementals are camping you."
GwaihirValar: if you're on a pvp server, watch out for swarms of horde... my server has min. 12-14 horde at EVERY rift in northrend lol
ArPharazonV: You mean it's going to get worse, Eonwe?
GwaihirValar: yep, this is phase 1
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
GwaihirValar: there're 4 phases
Eonwe Valar: What Gwaihir said.
ArPharazonV: Ooh, can anyone give me a link to that?
ArPharazonV: or... give the transcript readers a link? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: To what? The info on the four phases or to the Blizzard CM saying the above?
ArPharazonV: The info on the four phases.
GwaihirValar: They didn't give any details, just vague stuff. The blue post literally just said there are four phases and this is phase 1
ArPharazonV: Aw, too bad. Guess I'll have to do some continuous snooping not to miss the next phases ;-)
Eonwe Valar: You can get the basic compiled info from wowwiki, or apparently the new wowpedia, formed by some guys who left wowwiki.
Eonwe Valar: But aye, they didn't give dates for the beginnings of the next phases. That would spoil the fun :}
GwaihirValar: is the link: "There are four stages of the event. We're on the first. This is only the beginning. " "I know. And I'm saying the elementals are merely leaking out at this point. It's but a small sign of a larger, more malevolent presence threatening to tear apart the land. If you don't want to camp elementals for one achievement, wait until they're camping you. " are the quotes lol
AriehnV: i ve found the earth one in northrend .. rather they found me lol
AriehnV: but how to find out where they spawn?
Eonwe Valar:,, or mmo-champion all have the places listed.
AriehnV: ah cool thanks
Eonwe Valar: Er, that is
Eonwe Valar: not
ArPharazonV: Hmm, wowwiki says something about elementals spawning in the cities, 300k health, civilians that are trapped in certain areas, and if you save the city you get portals to fight lieutenants of Cho'gall...
GwaihirValar: Thats a later phase
ArPharazonV: I've... not seen that in the first phase. Guess it's still coming, or I've completely missed it.
Eonwe Valar: It's coming.
ArPharazonV: Allright.
Eonwe Valar: Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: I already got my Feat of Strength for hunting down the rifts :} I had a couple despawn on me as I walked up, so it took longer than it sounds :}
ArPharazonV: *grin* I just did it by sitting next to portalspots (usually with other people, we had at least 2 dozen people at the water rift) and browsing the internet with sound on in the background
Eonwe Valar: Mostly the usual suspects were on during the week: Fangorn, Sauron, Bilbo, Gimli, Bofur, and Nob. I believe I caught Merry and Elwing on during the week too.

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: An update is supposed to be coming this month, and a Developer Diary on the Rune-keeper changes was released.
karakedi25: There are some really nice changes for the Lore-master.
karakedi25: Not major, but little things that have been real annoyances, and not necessary.
karakedi25: We'll be able to summon our pets to us when they get stuck.
karakedi25: For example.
Eonwe Valar: That'll be useful, aye.
karakedi25: As will (for both LMs and minstrels) being able to do the melee FM moves from range, like hunters and RKs.
karakedi25: One of our major debuffs will work on everything, not excluding dead and worm-kind.
karakedi25: and so on
karakedi25: None of it's game-breaking.
Eonwe Valar: Monday questing took the group of Galdor, Gildor, Indis, Nimrodel, Tulkas, and Varda into the Great Barrows.
karakedi25: Galdor, can you think of anything else?
galdorandwe: sorry..been afk
karakedi25: We had a Wednesday quest, too. I think it was to Tham-i-Mirdain for the library and the school.
fladrifv has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya Ent
fladrifv: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Wednesday questing took Nimrodel, Pippin, and Landroval into Mirobel, and Galdor, Melkor, Nimrodel, Pippin, and Varda to Elsteldin for bounties.
karakedi25: The usual suspects, including those listed above, showed up over the week.
Eonwe Valar: Anything anyone who was there wants to add to the info of those runs is welcome.
Eonwe Valar: As Indis is doing :}
karakedi25: And speaking personally, my main, Alasse, got her chestpiece in Barad Guldur last night from the first boss.
karakedi25: (hard mode)
galdorandwe: Gildor, Nimrodel, Beregond, Melkor and I did an instance in Uru today with a non-kin player who was a good fit for the group. It was my first time to Uru...Champs and th Gurads got their quest items
karakedi25: for the non-lotro people, Uru is Urugarth, an instance area in Angmar.
galdorandwe: Nimrodel, Indis, Melkor, Gildor and Astald have been running Neil's Bounties regularly these days. We've kept sub-lvl 60 LI's slotted for bringing them up to max and creating relics. It's been very helpful. I get the feeling it's a nice trip down memory lane for some of the veteran players.
karakedi25: yes, but very useful
galdorandwe: Eomer and Pippen have come along for some of those as well.
Eonwe Valar: Glad to hear you are all having fun :}
galdorandwe: Eomer has been bringing Khori, his 65 Champ out for those. He plays that toon well...reminds me of Avengelina :-)
karakedi25: definitely
karakedi25: having fun, that is
Eonwe Valar: Is there any other gaming news?
Eonwe Valar: Now would be a good time to whisper Tolkien topics as well.
galdorandwe: Ahem.
ArPharazonV: Did another GW mission last night, heading deeper into Kryta and starting to meet up with the Shining Blade rebels... but failed the next mission and didn't retry it yet
Eonwe Valar: Galdor?
galdorandwe: yes.
Eonwe Valar: You said "Ahem" ?
galdorandwe: as in..I already sent you some topic ideas.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but I want to make sure everyone knows they have the opportunity :}
Eonwe Valar: Everyone has the opportunity to send the chair topics to discuss for Tolkien chat. The chair then picks the topic(s) for discussion from those.
Eonwe Valar: Is there no other gaming news?
galdorandwe: well, there have been some glitches with the Lotro lately...
VardaValar1: (Varda was on WoW the past week too. Scrolling back.)
VardaValar1: We had a Tolkien topic leftover from last time, but don't have to do it. Trying to remember it.
galdorandwe: I crafted some relics and kept them in my vault for future use, but they were gone when I went back to get them. It was very strange, almost like they had a shelf-life. I asked around. I guess this sort of thing has happened before according to Tulkas....

ArPharazonV: Well, I could tell you that I joined an Alliance in that bible online game a few days ago... we haven't had much interaction yet, no joint combat operations or resource trading or anything... but it still feels more secure to be in a group. Maybe it'll make people think twice before attacking me.

ArPharazonV: Varda, wasn't that topic building on the topic we did do last week?
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: or... two weeks ago?
VardaValar1: two, I missed last time.
VardaValar1: Sorry, seems like I've been on the road a lot. Going to be on the road again tomorrow morning til late Thursday.
galdorandwe: "on the road again. Just can't wait to get one the road again..."
VardaValar1: hehe
GwaihirValar: I've gotta be away from the computer for a while... was a pleasure being here. if its still going on when I get back when I'll pop back in and see.
galdorandwe: Willie will be 78 in abou that. :-)
galdorandwe: Sorry for the digression.
ArPharazonV: I was more thinking about the Canned Heat song :-)
galdorandwe: Nice.
VardaValar1 has left the room.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: WB :}
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
VardaValar1: Thanks. Crashed and splatted. :-) Are we in Tolkien?
Eonwe Valar: We haven't started yet, but yes we are.
VardaValar1: Thanks : )
ArPharazonV: There was silence for a few minutes, discussing songs called "on the road again" ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Or to exemplify this.

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: Sorry, I've been discussing the potential topics with the proponents of each.
VardaValar1: We had a discussion going about the problems that we are seeing in fantasy and in fantasy games about characters and stories that don't fit into a good vs evil scenario, but seem to just be out for themselves or their interest groups.
VardaValar1: Tolkien actually has a true good vs evil, but also has some of the characters that fit into that mode.
VardaValar1: Galdor also has a topic.
ArPharazonV: I wonder if there really is a true good vs evil in Tolkien. The major stories are certainly framed that way, but he goes out of his way that those who are "evil" never started so, and ultimately became so to further themselves and reach their own personal goals.
VardaValar1: That suggests a way of looking at the nature of evil as being corrupted good.
ArPharazonV: Morgoth and his jealousy of the Valar and the act of Creation (to his hatred of all that the Valar created, including Arda) seems a prime example
ArPharazonV: a short summary, obviously
Eonwe Valar: Nothing starts evil because nothing is created evil.
ArPharazonV: Ultimately the question is, what did the original corruption?
ArPharazonV: One would think that there has to be one source.
Eonwe Valar: Evil is a corruption, perversion, or rejection of Good.
VardaValar1: All were free t choose their path. Some chose to serve the path that glorified themselves over others, and went downhill from there.
ArPharazonV: Can anyone recall how Morgoth was corrupted?
ArPharazonV: something about venturing into the Outside?
galdorandwe: Bombadil, Barliman Butterbur to name two, Varda, that don't fit into either category. I would argue that even though Bombadil assisted the Hobbits form the barrow wights, it was more out of a sense of responsibility rather than a good vs evil thing. He was there before good and evil were present in the world, it would seem. Also, Butterbur was a bit simple and didn't see much beyond what would profit his inn...
VardaValar1: Morgoth was like that.
VardaValar1: Bombadil did not seem to be in any way evil. Nor was Butterbur.
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth went out into the dark, and being impatient for creation decided that he should be to one to bring it about.
galdorandwe: Neither good, nor evil
Eonwe Valar: Putting it simply.
ArPharazonV: Did the dark influence him so? Or was it simply his self-imposed isolation that gave him another view of things?
VardaValar1: Aye, as Melkor, he wanted the Flame Imperishable so that he could create like Eru. He already had a measure of the power of all others.
VardaValar1: So Melkor looked outside for what was actually inside Eru.
galdorandwe: Chaotic Neutral, to borrow from Gary Gygax , if you will.
ArPharazonV: Chaotic? Not True Neutral?
VardaValar1: Bombadil was not evil, did seem good, but was turned inward into his own territory.
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ArPharazonV: I was always curious about the actual details about the "chaotic" part in an alignment..
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Eonwe Valar: Assuming the scale balances in the middle. But what if the scale balances at good? :}
VardaValar1: Butterbur was a busy man who meant well.
galdorandwe: True Neutral would imply a complete neutrality. Chaotic allowed for actions in both directions to fit your alignment...All my D&D characters went that way beacuse you could, in effect, never have alignmeny conflicts :-)
VardaValar1: Gandalf liked visiting his old friend Bombadil, calling himself a rolling stone and Tom a... what? mossy rock? A stay at home sort.
VardaValar1: My D&D's were lawful good. : )
Eonwe Valar: In Tolkien's world, all good is lawful :}
galdorandwe: You must have been a Paladin or Cleric..but most clerics were chaotic good....
VardaValar1: I did a Paladin.
VardaValar1: Also a hunter.
VardaValar1: Darkness was not evil, and did not cause Melkor's downfall.
galdorandwe: Butterbur also was about to get a scolding from Gandalf, according to the letter he left for the hobbits. Couldn't have been too good of a friend
VardaValar1: Butterbur was to be scolded for forgetfulness, not intentional evil.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, it was Melkor who made the darkness a thing of fear.
VardaValar1: Arwen Evenstar made night loved again for Mankind.
ArPharazonV: Gandalf made those threats often, I recall. I remember the scene with Sam overhearing his conversation with Frodo :-)
galdorandwe: My point was, he was neither good nor evil...going along with the post above you made about characters not fitting into either good, nor evil.
VardaValar1: Butterbur was good or Gandalf would not have entrusted the letter to him.
galdorandwe: One can be trustworthy without being good
ArPharazonV: I wonder how the Ents fit in. They were reluctant to get on anyone's side, because nobody was on their side...
galdorandwe: Good point
Eonwe Valar: Butterbur was human. He did not make evil choices that we are aware of. He did not willingly serve or seek for evil ends.
VardaValar1: I can't agree with that Galdor. You'll have to show why you say that.
ArPharazonV: and wasn't it for the threat to their own forest, they would not have interfered, I believe?
VardaValar1: Forgetfulness is not evil, in my book.
karakedi25: As for Morgoth, the seed of his corruption seems to have been inside him. He wanted the music to go his way, for his greater glory.
galdorandwe: I trust plenty of people I consider to be "not good". They, however, are very capable of getting a job done. I know some Italian friends who can get the "job" done you might not consider to be "good people"...if you catch my drift.
VardaValar1: One of the reasons a lot of us like Tolkien's works is that he does show good as being something desirable.
karakedi25: Good defined as altruistic, presumably, rather than merely lawful?
VardaValar1: Trust to do the job, I guess. As long as it is in their best interest.
ArPharazonV: self-sacrificing, from what I can see :-)
galdorandwe: Money talks...
VardaValar1: Lawful can be used by, for instance, lawyers to twist the law to one's ends, rather than for its intent.
VardaValar1: Money is not something that is a reward for doing good, but for doing a job.
ArPharazonV: Do we have any Lawful Evil examples in Tolkien? Evil tied to laws and rules and order?
Eonwe Valar: Good is attunement to Eru, for the simplest explanation. Eru lays out a pretty simple Law for all beings whom have Free Will.
ArPharazonV: I'm reminded of some Warcraft-topics I've followed on the forums. Titans vs Demons. Order vs Chaos... and yet both were not above destruction for their own purposes. Order/Chaos is indeed a wholly different axis than Good/Evil, something which D&D tries to portray clearly.
galdorandwe: My point is that Butterbur was a simple innkeeper. He had no clue what was going on outside Bree (with exception of minor events here and there that were not the big picture). He was neither tied to good nor evil from what I could tell. RE: the money topic...I brought it up regarding trust to get a job done, not goodness in an individual. Quite the opposite. My point was that "bad" people can be trusted if the conditions are right. Nothing more, nothing less.
VardaValar1: Evil: Melkor's will is law. Do it or else. Sauron's will was law, don't go outside it.
karakedi25: If anyone, Saruman might be.
ArPharazonV: Yes, Saruman did come to mind :-)
VardaValar1: Gollum might come close to such a character.
karakedi25: I would say that Butterbur was basically good, though weak. He chose to harbor the hobbits even when it became clear that they were targets for the black riders.
ArPharazonV: Galdor, are you of the opinion that you have to be actively on the side of Good (in conflict) to be Good?
Eonwe Valar: Eru to Aulė, upon creation of the Dwarves: "Thou hast from me as a gift ty own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle."
ArPharazonV: What if the Ents had refused to join the war alltogether? Would they not be Good?
VardaValar1: Butterbur seemed to mean well. He took care of his business, helped Strider protect the Hobbits by hiding them in another room. Ruined good bolsters! : )
VardaValar1: Butterbur could have chosen the easy road and let the Riders take the Hobbits.
ArPharazonV: I'd like to consider Butterbur as Neutral Good and Bombadil as either Neutral or Chaotic Good. According to the D&D system, that is. Not as according to the Law laid down by Eru.
ArPharazonV: But Good, either way.
Eonwe Valar: The law we draw from this is that it is against Eru's Will that a being be forced against its own will to do something. This protection extends to the fruits of one's actions as well. The work of one's hands cannot be taken without that person's consent. Notice it was not until Aulė offered up his creations to Eru that they were given Being.
VardaValar1: and Eru adopted the Dwarves then. : )
galdorandwe: Butterbur didn't trust Strider, for one. He did little to hinder the Black Riders. He was perhaps, content to not be involved...almost defining neutrality. He only delivered Gandalf's message, it would seem, out of fear. Does one need ot be on the side of good to be good? Well, in LoTR, there were clearly 2 sides. One was very clearly good, was was very clearly evil. Those that weren't on either side and did not knowlingly aid either side must beconsidered neutral by definition.
Eonwe Valar: The action of Good People is the conscious decision to consistently do good. That doesn't mean they don't screw up, and it doesn't mean they have it easy.
VardaValar1: Butterbur did indeed hinder the Riders in a big way, by misdirection.
ArPharazonV: And he wasn't aware that Strider was "Good" either ;-)
VardaValar1: He gave them another room so that the Riders attacked the original one, thinking bolsters were hobbits under the blankets.
ArPharazonV: To be Good does not mean that you automatically recognize others of the same alignment.
VardaValar1: Butterbur was uncertain of Strider's being good, and warned the Hobbits about him.
ArPharazonV: If he thought Strider to be Evil, his mistrust of him would be Good, no? ;-)
VardaValar1: True. Strider's "looks were against him".
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Eonwe Valar: Not everyone is as perceptive as they should be :}
Eonwe Valar: But Butterbur did seek to do Good, after his fashion. :}
karakedi25: Butterbur's motives were to do good and protect the hobbits.
VardaValar1: In the conversation with Frodo, Strider reacted figuring Frodo meant that he looked foul but felt fair. Sub in evil and good there.
ArPharazonV: Also, and it might be silly to keep going on this because Galdor's no longer in the room, but the "clearly" good and evil sides were not so "clear" at all. Only to the readers.
VardaValar1: True.
Eonwe Valar: Boromir, while seeking to take the RIng from Frodo, looked fair and felt foul. Sub in good and evil there :}
VardaValar1: and the topic was still interesting. Plus we have a transcript.
Eonwe Valar: So what about Faramir? Faramir's choice of what to do with Frodo.
ArPharazonV: Oh, I did not mean we should drop the topic. Only that it might be silly to directly reply to Galdor while he's no longer here to read it.
ArPharazonV: Faramir... now that's interesting.
ArPharazonV: One could say that if he had taken the Ring from Frodo and delivered it (or both) to his father, it would most certainly be Lawful.
ArPharazonV: But would it be Good?
Eonwe Valar: It was the law of Gondor that any strangers found in Ithilien be killed.
VardaValar1: Book Faramir was definitely a good character trying to do the best choice even if it was personally dangerous, as he had to go against his father's rules.
Eonwe Valar: The law itself wasn't unjust. It was meant to protect Gondor from servants of Sauron.
ArPharazonV: Can you say that if he had killed Frodo and taken the Ring to Gondor, he would not be Good as a person because of it?
Eonwe Valar: However, Frodo's mission was also one of good. Which means Faramir chose not between the lesser of two Evils, but the greater of two Goods :}
VardaValar1: Good questions the rules of their people's authorities if it goes against Eru. Also, Faramir could see the big picture and how it was good overall for his people as well.
VardaValar1: Nice, choosing between the greater of two goods. Great phrase.
ArPharazonV: Yes, I like that statement as well.
AriehnV: if he had killed Frodo and taken the ring i am not sure if he could have resisted the evil of it
AriehnV: probably not .. and getting corrupted changes good into evil by definition
AriehnV: just drawing back on what Varda said earlier :-)
ArPharazonV: Looking at the Ring and its owners, there were two ways to obtain it. One of them was by the death of its previous owner. This applied to Isildur, Gollum, and, if it had been so, Faramir.
ArPharazonV: Looking at what happened to the earlier two, I indeed could not imagine Faramir not going off the Good path if he took it by force.
karakedi25: We might say that Faramir was lawful, in that Frodo's mission was authorized by Gandalf and Elrond, both of whom he respected highly.
karakedi25: And he decided that their authority transcended that of Gondor.
Eonwe Valar: I would say he referred to a greater authority.
VardaValar1: Perhaps, or perhaps he was looking at the highest authority for his guidance?
VardaValar1: But aye, Denethor noticed that Faramir would watch Gandalf to make sure he was giving only the correct information to his father.
Eonwe Valar: The people of Numenor would not be alien to knowledge of Eru, and pointing back to the Prime Law, for lack of a better way to put it: Free Will.
karakedi25: so Denethor's resentment of Gandalf was understandable.
karakedi25: But at the same time, it does suggest that Faramir recognized a higher authority than Denethor.
Eonwe Valar: Sauron, and by extension the Ring, was an obvious threat to the freedom not only of GOndor but of all peoples.
VardaValar1: Aye. He felt that Faramir's love was halved, due to his being a "wizard's pupil".
ArPharazonV: And it resulted in Faramir taking Gandalf's authority over Denethor's, when he met Frodo in Ithilien.
ArPharazonV: I wonder what Denethor would've thought of his decision there.
VardaValar1: Allowing personal freedom is shown as good, and insisting on only the will of one authority is shown as evil.
ArPharazonV: Did Denethor ever find out his son let the Ringbearer pass?
ArPharazonV: Even if that one authority is Eru, Varda? :-)
Eonwe Valar: He had an inkling, yes.
VardaValar1: I think it was in Faramir's report, or his men's.
VardaValar1: Eru allows choice. He doesn't insist on forcing his rules.
Eonwe Valar: Denethor spoke as if he knew that Faramir had had a chance to obtain the RIng.
VardaValar1: Sauron and Morgoth did not allow choice if they could help it.
VardaValar1: Eru would get drastic for requested protection, as vs some Ar-Pharazon and his corrupted people.
Eonwe Valar: Sauron and Morgoth used promises of gifts and power at first, fear and force when the former would not avail.
VardaValar1: True. Then they slowly quit offering much of the more gentle persuasion technique. My way or the highway is what it became.
Eonwe Valar: It wasn't so much protection with Pharazon's fleet. The Valar couldn't bring themselves to act in force against Eru's children.
ArPharazonV: so they let Father do it instead...
VardaValar1: True. So Manwe turned over his authority in the matter to Eru.
Eonwe Valar: The Valar could've dealt with Pahrazon, no protection needed, but put the decision back in Eru's hands, and Arda was changed. The Valar, as a result, lost their physical residence in Arda.
ArPharazonV: Perhaps they felt themselves rejected by the Children, and resigned to no longer watching over them. They knew when they'd become unwanted.
ArPharazonV: Well, they still watched over them, but less obviously.
VardaValar1: True
VardaValar1: Some also continued to go to Middle-earth, notably Ulmo, although quietly.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, they took less obvious action in the affairs of Arda.
VardaValar1: They didn't have to be present to see and hear what was going on.
VardaValar1: This also let the Children have greater freedom of choice.
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VardaValar1: Seeing a gigantic Vala walking around the countryside might predispose one to behave when he might not otherwise.
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Eonwe Valar: Perhaps, but the Noldor didn't seem phased.
Eonwe Valar: *fazed
VardaValar1: heh - good point
Eonwe Valar: Ossė regularly came to the Teleri while they were in Beleriand, until they finally went to Aman.
ArPharazonV: Heh. They'd lived beside the gigantic Vala for a long time. They'd grown used to them ;-)
ArPharazonV: *Valar
VardaValar1: Osse also taught them, and they were on friendly terms. He didn't want to lose their companionship by their going to Valinor.
karakedi25: That was all before the world was changed.
Eonwe Valar: I don't really think the Elves (particularly the Noldor) got the feelign from the Valar that "this is my land and you'll do things my way" until Morgoth starting sowing seeds.
Eonwe Valar: *Morgoth started.
karakedi25: And they never actually got the feeling from the Valar. They got it from their distorted thinking, influenced by Morgoth
VardaValar1: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Aye. I assumed that was understood :}
VardaValar1: This crowd pretty well knows so aye. : )
Eonwe Valar: If the Valar were going to act like that, there'd be nowhere in existence Elves of Men could escape it, least of all in the Kingdom of Arda.
Eonwe Valar: *Elves or Men
VardaValar1: Anyway, the definiton of good that we seem to get from Tolkien is freedom of choice, but in a responsible manner. Don't use it to harm others for one's own benefit, like Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, with all rights granted by Eru come responsibilities.
ArPharazonV: With great power...
Eonwe Valar: Free Will is a great power :}
VardaValar1: comes great responsibility. -- Peter Parker, aka Spider-man. : )
ArPharazonV: *nod*
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: Uncle Ben said it first :}
ArPharazonV: Actually, wasn't it Uncle Ben? ;-)
VardaValar1: Go Uncle Ben! hehe
Eonwe Valar: That would be Ben Parker, not Uncle Ben the rice guy :}
VardaValar1: I make errors.
karakedi25: John Stuart Mill
VardaValar1: Varda trying to bring the elves to Valinor in an over-protective move, for instance. : )
karakedi25: or something like that
ArPharazonV: You were good at your specialty though *looks at the stars*
VardaValar1: Light is fun stuff. : )
VardaValar1: Varda was into all forms of light, but the stars were the one she's most known for.
AriehnV: softie .. plays with sparks .
Eonwe Valar: It was the Lamps before that.
Eonwe Valar: Well, on Arda. So I guess the stars were first, hehe.

VardaValar1: Anyway, this is another topic I'd love to mention, about the overall guild rp, (not the forum rp this time).
VardaValar1: hehe
AriehnV: Lamps are good .. and what is in them even better :-)
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VardaValar1: In other role-playing groups, they tend to have some story arc. Ours is a very complicated group because we span a lot of time and games.
VardaValar1: After considerable discussion, we came up with this. The final version was Eonwe's, if he'd like to mention it? Or I can.
VardaValar1: Feel free to add your thoughts.
karakedi25: *listens with interest*
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead. I'll chime in if I think it's necessary :}
VardaValar1: Thank you. You're great at helping me keep an even keel.
VardaValar1: At the end of the time of Arda, before singing the new Arda aright,
VardaValar1: each of us exist as personalities from our lifetimes in the Arda that is about to be gone.
VardaValar1: For instance, Gilraen is still Gilraen, but outside time.
VardaValar1: Gilraen must sing Arda aright, and now has a strong idea of what it should be like, but
VardaValar1: she needs to round out her knowledge for perfection, trying out other types of existence. This could be as a hobbit or a zerg, or both, as needed.
VardaValar1: Since we are outside time we have all the "time" we need to learn.
VardaValar1: So we can try many existences to pick up what we need to know. And may not need long in them or may enjoy staying in them even if we've already learned.
VardaValar1: So Gilraen may be anything at all in the time before.
VardaValar1: We are aware of each other in these forms, thus we have a form of communication outside the apparent forms.
ArPharazonV: A zerg?
VardaValar1: We may also find ourselves absorbed with interest in our forms and react like them, even knowing what we do.
VardaValar1: We can be farthest back or farthest forward in the time of Arda, and a zerg would be very far forward. Thus we include the space gaming.
ArPharazonV: Ah, I think I'm starting to understand.
VardaValar1: We might even indulge in speculation of what might have been instead.
VardaValar1: This covers Age of Conan, for instance.
ArPharazonV: or Diablo?
VardaValar1: Once all of us have learned the lessons we need, completed our studies, we can all be together (outside time) to sing Arda as it was intended.
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar. : )
VardaValar1: So Gilraen would recognize Eomer in any form, at some level.
VardaValar1: but she was originally Gilraen, but is now outside time, experimenting. Same for Eomer.
VardaValar1: This seems to cover everything we do. Any comments or suggestions?
VardaValar1: If you'd rather digest it a while and make comments at a later time, that's fine too. : )
Eonwe Valar: To put it simply in lore-fashion, we're seeking to fully understand our part in Ea by seeing the impact our decisions have made upon it.
Eonwe Valar: I'd really only considered LotRO for this, seeing as that's where it's needed, but I suppose it can extend after a manner to other games.
VardaValar1: It's needed overall.
Eonwe Valar: I'd thought our desire for friendly gaming compatriots and Tolkien chat was enough outside of a role-play reason for a specific game :}
ArPharazonV: So.. how does this apply to characters that are not involved in the Singing? Or do all evil (including Morgoth, already slain by Turin around that time) creatures take part in it?
VardaValar1: Most evil beings will have learned better by then, or be learning better in this overall study time.
Eonwe Valar: While I personally doubt Morgoth will be involved in the Second Music, I suppose that's got to be a handwave.
VardaValar1: Since we actually have Melkor-(Valar) playing in LotRO, we have him involved. I am having trouble remembering if he was involved in the books.
ArPharazonV: The last thing I remember is him coming back into Arda at the end, and being slain by Turin.
VardaValar1: Thanks Fangorn!
Eonwe Valar: I don't recall if it's specified off the top of my head, but it would seem like a bad idea to give him another chance to screw things up. I tend to think the Second Music is for those who have sought to do good, not those who purposely chose evil (Ruling out Morgoth, Sauron, and any other Maiar following Melkor at the minimum.)
VardaValar1: Fangorn just handed me an early birthday present, a 32 GB flash drive. : )
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
VardaValar1: Thanks :-)
VardaValar1: It seems to me from my faulty brain memory that Morgoth was not included. I wonder if Sauron, who was a Maia of Aule's for a time, could ever be reclaimable?
Eonwe Valar: For those interested, the quote I referred to for reference was:
Eonwe Valar: "Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each,.."
AriehnV: nice :-D grats :-))
Eonwe Valar: *the quote I used for reference
ArPharazonV: Congratulations Varda :-) When is your birthday?
VardaValar1: Nov 10
VardaValar1: I'll be 57, a tad younger than the real Varda. : )
AriehnV: so young :-)
Eonwe Valar: Sauron I think is unreclaimable. Sauron can't even take physical shape again and rebuild his power because he can't take his focus off his evil long enough to do so (going by Tolkien's thoughts on the matter in one of the HoME books)
VardaValar1: I have to agree, Melkor and Sauron are probably not going to see the new Arda.
ArPharazonV: Well, congratulations then, Varda :-)
ArPharazonV: So now I have to ask the question I was thinking of when I first mentioned the evil characters.
ArPharazonV: What about meee? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth, however, seems to have enough of Melkor left in him to rebuild his power at least for one last go.(also based on Tolkien's comments)
VardaValar1: What about orcs? They were born in evil and lived in evil and intended naught but evil, except for those that were elves once. And even most of those elves were the lesser ones that were frightened by Orome and unwilling to go see about him.
VardaValar1: Phar should be reclaimable. : )
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien waivered a bit on that as I recall. If memory serves, he didn't imagine that Morgoth could so wholly corrupt Eru's children that there was no absolutely no chance at redemption.
VardaValar1: Melkor was also a creation of Eru's.
Eonwe Valar: Melkor's fall was of his own choice though.
Eonwe Valar: The ruin of the orcs was orchestrated.
VardaValar1: Aye
Eonwe Valar: Assuming they came from Men or Elves.
VardaValar1: Sauron was misled and then couldn't bear to go apologize in Valinor.
VardaValar1: But the ones that were born as Orcs?
karakedi25: The question there might be what happens to them after they die. Do they go to their own version of the halls of waiting?
Eonwe Valar: Mislead? Not really. He went with Melkor because Melkor got things done, and Sauron was all about order.
karakedi25: (And what the role-play will mean for our Melkor and Sauron)
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure Tolkien considered where orcs went, I just can't bring a quote to mind right now.
VardaValar1: We have to bend it a tad for our Melkor and Sauron. We've said that our Melkor is Melkor as he was meant to be.
VardaValar1: I remember it too, Eonwe.
VardaValar1: It does show that Morgoth seduced many to him for his glory, power, and the assumption that he'd get things done, whatever that meant. : )
VardaValar1: It was the other Valar that really got things done. Morgoth was jealous of what they had accomplished and wanted to take it. But since he didn't make it, he wanted eventually to destroy it.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: Not enough glory in his name.
Eonwe Valar: If he couldn't have it, no one could.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: So, no more comments on the overall rp? Are you guys and gals ok with it or want to mull it over a bit?
VardaValar1: means, would you rather think about it for a while and comment at a later time?
Eonwe Valar: I don't have anything more to say on it, unless there's an interest in the wordy version of it, hehe. Varda put it succintly enough, and I've commented where I thought was needed :}
VardaValar1: Thanks, Eonwe. : )
ArPharazonV: I didn't even know the RP was needed ;-)
ArPharazonV: But it looks good, yes.
VardaValar1: We are considered a light RP group in LotRO. So we need an RP. Then it seemed right to include the whole guild in it and all our games, since we move around everywhere.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Phar.
Eonwe Valar: We're on the official unnoficcial RP server on Landroval, so it was needed there :}
ArPharazonV: Oh, okay.
ArPharazonV: Not playing LotRO, I had no idea :-)
VardaValar1: And why not explain how Ar-Pharazon could be chatting with Gilraen and Eonwe right here? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: The RP outside LotRO involves us acting in-character for our guild-names :}
Eonwe Valar: Like locking Pharazon and his army in some caves to be left there until the End :}
VardaValar1: It also explains why we act as both the Indis of the books and an elven lore-master in the game.
Eonwe Valar: And what Varda said :}
AriehnV: as i do sometimes
ArPharazonV: So in our newly invented RP situation I'm no longer actually in the Caves?
AriehnV: if yu have noticed ;-)
AriehnV: here in the chat
VardaValar1: You are in the Caves during the time of Arda, but outside of Arda at the end of time you are here chatting with us and trying out other lives, such as in WarCraft. : )
VardaValar1: Broaden your mind for the Song.
AriehnV: I like that story i have to say
AriehnV: but be that as it wants .. i have to go to bed now :-( still working tomorrow even if late
VardaValar1: Sleep well, and thanks for your vote, Sunshine!
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
Eonwe Valar: I think it's time to bang the gavel :}
AriehnV: May the road rise to meet you and the beams of Arda keep you safe while fighting darkness and all that it tries to engulf you
AriehnV: Anar even
AriehnV: beams of Anar
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*
AriehnV: Namarie all

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting :}
ArPharazonV: Namarie
VardaValar1: Namarie!
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VardaValar1: Well, that's four votes anyway. Eowe, Varda, Phar, and Arien are "for". : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: We have some LotRO folks who also liked it, but are not present.
VardaValar1: No nays yet.
VardaValar1: A lot of quiet though.
ArPharazonV: You seem to have covered all the options, as exemplified in our little sidechat.
VardaValar1: I try. :-) Been thinking about it for a good while.
VardaValar1: Eonwe came up with the near final form after a lot of discussion over the years with various ones, and I expanded it a little.
VardaValar1: We've been rp'ing a bit with this for 13 years, might as well sock it down.
VardaValar1: Ok, heading out for now. Let Phar get some rest, o chronicler of the meetings!
Eonwe Valar: Take care Varda, and have fun out and about :}
VardaValar1: Thank you. : )
VardaValar1: Hoping to slip into LotRO after getting a few more things done. Wish me luck! The list keeps lengthening, heh.
Eonwe Valar: Good luck :}
VardaValar1: Namarie, dear friends. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}
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karakedi25: a bit late, but I'm up for giving it a try
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ArPharazonV: saving and sending