Valar Guild

November 28, 2010 Sunday Meeting

5pm EDT (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (7)
    Ancalagon-(V), AriehnV, ArPharazonV, arwenv1, Eonwe Valar, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1 (presiding)
Meeting begins
       WoW video short
    LotRO: Nov update Monday
    Guild Wars
    Eve Online
    Topic: LotR: The two main sides have very different philosophies. Sauron's side is mostly into monolithic activity, while the free peoples operate in small ensembles, duos, and sometimes even alone yet work together. Can we come up with examples of these two opposing philosophies? One operating solely under the boss, the other with a lot of individual and small group activity?
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar :-)
VardaValar1: Anc is at dinner
VardaValar1: I just "upgraded" AIM, trying to figure it out now.
ArPharazonV: just been blazing through the new Westfall quests, it's a good story!
VardaValar1: Cool!
VardaValar1: Fangorn is in WoW now, Eowyn and Schlep in BroodWar and then going to WoW.
VardaValar1: What name do you see me as, Phar?
ArPharazonV: VardaValar1
VardaValar1: Thanks :-)
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Trying to find the menu area
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)
AriehnV: aiya :-)
VardaValar1: says Options and has an arrow.
ArPharazonV: wouldn't know, I'm still on the old 5.something version
VardaValar1: Found it there
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya!

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Good to see you folks, and hope you're having a great Thanksgiving weekend. :-)
VardaValar1: I have no other membership news at this time.
VardaValar1: Anyone else?

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: Nothing new on the Tolkien Site. How about for Gaming, Eonwe?
Eonwe Valar: Nay.

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: I seem to have done something silly with my notes and didn't put up any LotRO news. We did have a lot of people and did have fun getting together in instances.
VardaValar1: (Fangorn says hi!)

VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: Eonwe, would you like to make a report?
Eonwe Valar: Sure.
Eonwe Valar: First, patch 4.0.3 was released, changing Azeroth.
Eonwe Valar: Welcome to the World of Deathwingcraft :}
ArPharazonV: he hath crafted the world well, indeed
ArPharazonV: got rid of that annoying statue as well!
Eonwe Valar: Second, we had a member request at least an attempt on ICC, so we're scheduled to meet tonight at 7pm Eastern, 6 Central, and we'll see how many guildies we'll have as to whether we'll give it a go.
ArPharazonV: Ooh, good luck. It's a fun place.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, it is, and aye, it's going to be interesting if we go in there :}
AriehnV: it is i like it actuaally .. but not uncle professor ..
Eonwe Valar: Third, Pilgrim's Bounty is at an end, so I hope you all took the chance to get your cooking skill up :}
AriehnV: good luck with that
Eonwe Valar: Finally, we're 8 days away from the release of Cataclysm.
Eonwe Valar: That should be it of my report.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe.
VardaValar1: Any other games played this last week?

VardaValar1: StarCraft/BroodWar has been popular with the Laytonrim.
VardaValar1: November update for LotRO happens tomorrow.

ArPharazonV: Guild Wars here, another mission done, and the next one's supposed to be even harder :P
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar.
VardaValar1: Grats :-)

VardaValar1: Eve have any action?
VardaValar1: Menel, Pallando, and Arien seem to be mostly running with other groups, but keep in contact with the friend channel.
AriehnV: yes i have seen Menel this week a couple of times
AriehnV: and once Pallando on his pirate
AriehnV: atm i am semi afk since some uncareful miners have been provoked by some pirates steeling their ore .. and landed us in a war ... an that after two months in the game and 2 weeks in the corp .. must be a record
AriehnV: and it seems some of the other guys are close by
VardaValar1: Which corp?
AriehnV: EC Riders is my corp
VardaValar1: ok, we'll understand why you're quiet. :-)
AriehnV: and the others are Wolf Pack Groupies
VardaValar1: Any other games we want to mention?
AriehnV: i just have to keep an eye on whats going on in the fleet chat

VardaValar1: If not, let's move to Tolkien
VardaValar1: The two main sides have very different philosophies.
VardaValar1: I'm in LotR mainly here, but it could move to other books.
VardaValar1: Sauron's side is mostly into monolithic activity, while the free peoples operate in small ensembles, duos, and sometimes even alone yet work together.
VardaValar1: Can we come up with examples of these two opposing philosophies? One operating solely under the boss, the other with a lot of individual and small group activity?
ArPharazonV: Monolithic... is that another way of saying he does things big scale?
ArPharazonV: or that everyone directly responds to him?
VardaValar1: Means all under one boss as if part of one body.
VardaValar1: Aye
arwenv1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Sauron is not into much individual initiative, except in the case of some of the bosses that work directly for him.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arwen :-)
arwenv1: hello :-)
ArPharazonV: Well, there's the Council of Elrond as an example, where the free peoples came together to discuss and cooperate... while Sauron did everything his own way :-)
VardaValar1: True
ArPharazonV: Less of "What do you think?" and more of "Go do what I tell you!"
VardaValar1: The council of Sauron is go do that!
VardaValar1: Saruman started operating more in Sauron's fashion as time went on. He started off in the small, independently operating group of Istari.
ArPharazonV: A result of this might be that those of the free peoples working together, actually work together, knowing that what they're doing is for the best, and what they want to do...
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: while Sauron's armies, not getting any say in the matter, are prone to fight among themselves and bickering about their masters
VardaValar1: The Ringwraiths were so utterly controlled that they could be sent for actions more approaching ensemble and individual action, but it was only in seeming.
ArPharazonV: They could take initiative, but only for their master's cause.
VardaValar1: Aye, not for any cause of their own.
ArPharazonV: In contrast to the Orcs, who served Sauron more out of fear, they were actually quite loyal
ArPharazonV: Or maybe it had something to do with Sauron controlling their Rings.
Eonwe Valar: Easy to be loyal to a Dark Lord who holds that which your will is bound to.
ArPharazonV: Aye!
VardaValar1: The free peoples cause was the same for both individual and group, making it seem as if they were working for some central power, but there was no central power really.
VardaValar1: It was a central idea instead.
Eonwe Valar: Good point.
Eonwe Valar: Although, there was a central mover :}
ArPharazonV: Free peoples were on the defensive. They knew that if they didn't work together, they'd not stand a chance.
Eonwe Valar: The central mover being Gandalf :}
VardaValar1: Gandalf became a central mover, but that was not the original intention. He was supposed to be one of five advisors. He continued to act mostly as an advisor.
VardaValar1: The other Istari had freedom of choice too, and chose to do other than what they were sent for. Left Gandalf holding a big bag.
ArPharazonV: Well, it's not his fault that his boss turned, two colleagues wandered off to the East, and his only remaining fellow advisor took to the trees :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, all 5 wizards were supposed to be movers, inspiring the Free Peoples and aiding them with counsel to combat Sauron. When 4/5 go off and do their own thing, it's easy for Gandalf to look really important :}
ArPharazonV: Would have been quite interesting to see what happened if all 5 were still wandering the western lands of Middle-Earth to move things against Sauron
VardaValar1: They might have specialized in different races or areas, or moved among them?
ArPharazonV: 5 Gandalfs wandering about, all working together, spread out over the lands? Imagine what they could've done.
VardaValar1: With just one, maybe the free peoples had a better chance to learn to act for themselves.
Eonwe Valar: Well, supposedly the two who went East were moving things against him in the East. I believe somewhere it says they weren't completely unsuccessful, though there's also questions of *when* they were sent to Middle-Earth.
ArPharazonV: Yes, I think that's somewhere in the History
VardaValar1: It's mentioned that the Blue Wizards set up cults in the east, but it doesn't say cults of what.
ArPharazonV: It had been suggested that they were working against Sauron from the East, and without them, his Easterling armies would have been far greater.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: So, Gandalfs of the East? :-) Nice thought.
Eonwe Valar: So there had to have been some amount of resistance to his rule in the East, even if not necessarily to the extent of the West.
VardaValar1: Gandalf didn't set up a cult though.
Eonwe Valar: And aye.
VardaValar1: Cults are less conducive to individuality.
Eonwe Valar: Gandalf didn't bring any kool-aid :}
VardaValar1: Don't drink the Kool-aid!
VardaValar1: Even sons of kings and ruling stewards in the west were apparently traveling alone at times. Odd really.
Eonwe Valar: He brought newspaper headlines :} "Hey guys, you've got enemies on your doorstep. Get to it!"
VardaValar1: Information, that's the way!
ArPharazonV: No wonder they called him Stormcrow :-)
VardaValar1: Aye :-)
Eonwe Valar: And Lathspell :}
Eonwe Valar: Or at least Wormtongue called him that.
VardaValar1: Not his biggest fan.
Eonwe Valar: And the news he brought was ill indeed,.. for Grima's puppet-reign :}
VardaValar1: Lathspell - "ill news"
ArPharazonV: Such a swell guy, that Wormtongue.
VardaValar1: As for individual/ensemble action, the Fellowship was major on that.
VardaValar1: They could operate together or broken in smaller groups, yet continue their mission.
VardaValar1: They didn't have to have an overall leader, just the mission.
VardaValar1: Agreement on an idea.
ArPharazonV: When together, they did have a "leader" of sorts, but he was more of a guide.
VardaValar1: To lead is to show the way.
ArPharazonV: oh, sorry, you said "didn't have to have", I misread it for "didn't have"
VardaValar1: extra "have" snuck in there.
VardaValar1: The term "leader" has sometimes come to mean boss that has to be followed, rather than agreed to be followed.
ArPharazonV: Well, a leader tends to lose his functionality if everyone else goes their own way, so it's understandable.
AriehnV: a leader is just as good as his followers and advisers
VardaValar1: And the group is in trouble if they lose a leader who tells them what their every move must be.
VardaValar1: Gandalf could go away and yet Thorin's Company or the Fellowship could still function as intended.
VardaValar1: He set them on the path and they were glad when he did come back.
ArPharazonV: that's because Thorin made a good leader as well :-)
VardaValar1: Aye, so we could say there were sub-leaders.
VardaValar1: Thorin, Aragorn.
AriehnV: frodo was a leader as well ..
VardaValar1: True.
Eonwe Valar: Arien beat me to it, hehe.
AriehnV: :-D
Eonwe Valar: Frodo's decision of where to go set the direction for anyone travelling with him.
VardaValar1: Even for Gandalf, in a fashion.
Eonwe Valar: He leaned on the guidance of Gandalf and Aragorn when he could, but when it came to the point where the road had to split, it was up to him which path to take.
VardaValar1: Aye!
ArPharazonV: Which way's Mordor, Gandalf, left or right?
VardaValar1: Like Phar and Arien commented earlier, the whole group can give input as advice.
VardaValar1: Ask Merry, he looked at the map.
VardaValar1: Gandalf wanted the dwarf and elf to quit bickering and help him look for a way into Moria, and they both did their individual ways of hunting.

VardaValar1: A quick topic switch:
VardaValar1: Menel and Indis have both posted to the RP if you'd like to check on that.
ArPharazonV: today?
VardaValar1: Estarion is now wearing shorts.
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: Nov 23 was the last one.
ArPharazonV: allright, then I'm still up to date
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Does anyone else have any more comments, suggestions?
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Nice post, Indis. :-)
VardaValar1: We just finished the Tolkien chat pretty much.
VardaValar1: About ready to go into After-meeting.
karakedi25: ah thanks. Have you decided what comes next in the RP?
VardaValar1: You mean in general? No changes to the previous planning that I know of.

ArPharazonV: Well, for aftermeeting, I'll present a link to some WoW video shorts, quite funny, about the adventures of a bear.

karakedi25: anything new added before I came in?
VardaValar1: Nope. Mostly it was actual Tolkien discussion.
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar

ArPharazonV: I too am wondering about the RP. We've pretty much all posted now, but left without a thread to follow despite the fact that we have to continue west. Did we have any plans for Auros of Fainan to lead the way further?
ArPharazonV: *besides the fact
Eonwe Valar: We're heading to Rivendell.
VardaValar1: We have a lot of baddies and patrols mixing it up out there. We might let Estarion catch his breath at least, then continue to escort Auros when it calms a bit.
ArPharazonV: Well I was mostly referring as to who of us should be further moving the story at this specific time.
VardaValar1: We have a little farther to go through Mirkwood's forest, then we'll be outside in a new area.
karakedi25: you mean, let Estarion make friends with his horse? :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, my last post had Auros more or less seeing how long it would take to get some intel on the road ahead, and the company commander telling him h'es going to have to wait.
VardaValar1: Estarion, that's a horse You sit on it facing the same way it is.
VardaValar1: No stirrups or bridle, good luck!
Eonwe Valar: My next post will kick us back onto our journey, if that helps, Phar.
VardaValar1: Stirrups are actually a big help when trying to swing a weapon or throw a spear. Archery, not so bad.
VardaValar1: For a lance, you really want stirrups.
ArPharazonV: oki, Eonwe, that was what I was mostly wondering. If we want to have some interaction time before then, that's fine with me too :-)
VardaValar1: We may be glossing over a lot of the rest of the trip to get to Rivendell, then after that start the new/expansion rp for Angmar.
ArPharazonV: we might have been better off naming this chapter "Departure from Mirkwood" or something and saving a new chapter for Rivendell.
ArPharazonV: It's a long trip and we've already made it the longest chapter so far, I think?
Eonwe Valar: IN pages, it's tied with Part 2 for length.
ArPharazonV: Feels weird to "gloss over" so much of the tale. Much we could experience between Mirkwood and Rivendell, near the Anduin or in the Misty Mountains :-)
Eonwe Valar: It's only 4 posts longer than part 2.
VardaValar1: True. The problem is it has little to do with the main plot.
ArPharazonV: Well yes, but it's titled as the journey of Rivendell, and we're probably not even halfway.
ArPharazonV: *journey to
VardaValar1: What high points would we like to be sure to mention?
VardaValar1: We can have scenes in each of those spots.
ArPharazonV: Anduin? Carrock? Mountain passes?
Eonwe Valar: Plus, we dealt with the primary antagonist of the chapter, perhap the current arc. Kind of anticlimactic to get into to much trouble after that.
VardaValar1: Aye.
ArPharazonV: I wasn't really aware we were really going after a "main plot" business with a main villain (who will be coming back in the second arc anyway)... more considered it a travelling journal of sorts, with side events and stories to tell everywhere we go, like in an MMO
VardaValar1: We can still have scenes in the main locations, just not heavy action.
ArPharazonV: of course there's a main plot, but I didn't think we were trying to keep it bound to that main plot
VardaValar1: It was originally a substitute for LotRO during our ten year wait. :-)
ArPharazonV: Which is an MMO, and as such, I doubt it's centered on one line of quests with nothing but empty terrain between the main events ;-)
VardaValar1: Meet some Stoors? :-)
ArPharazonV: Hah, that'd be nice. Or run into Beorn!
ArPharazonV: If he's still alive. Been a while.
Eonwe Valar: Well, there's is a primary storyline presented in Volumes, Books, and Chapters :}
ArPharazonV: Well, the same is true with post-Shattering WoW from what I've seen, most zones are going through a linear questline now,a nd leading to each other more than they used to
ArPharazonV: but there's always room for flavor areas, sidequests, and smaller events everywhere, and I would assume that goes for most MMOs
ArPharazonV: even Guildwars has that, and it's the most linear MMO I've ever seen ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I think the idea to keep in mind is we shouldn't drag it out just to drag it out. If we can develop characters or character interaction, great. If we're just spending 10 posts per place to say "Look at the scenery! It's so scenic!" Then we can probably do without that.
VardaValar1: The scenes need some kind of purpose, aye.
ArPharazonV: Hmm, if you say so :-)
VardaValar1: Calion is going to need to find himself again. He's going through a rough time right now. This might be of help to him.
VardaValar1: Fainan's never been far outside of Mirkwood. Needs to adjust to it.
ArPharazonV: I think the journey will do him good.
VardaValar1: Aye :-)
VardaValar1: Estarion needs to get more integrated into the team somehow before we make it to Angmar.
VardaValar1: We need more of a group feeling. Right now it's a bunch of individuals going the same way.
VardaValar1: Time to develop it.
VardaValar1: The scenes don't have to be long to do that.
VardaValar1: How do we go about that?
Eonwe Valar: I just don't really want the story to turn to LotR-ball Z. We spending a long time travelling/training, then suddenly appear, blow everything away with a 40-page battle that take up all of 20 real-time minutes were it done at regular speed, then back to travelling/training.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: I was hoping we'd be wandering over Angmar's ruins quite a while. It's a big place and be a bit tough, like archaeology.
ArPharazonV: Makes sense. But to me it would seem that a good way to prevent that would be to have smaller scenes on places with no combat action, smaller interactions, kind of cut up the flow from actionpacked A to actionpacked G by inserting smaller stops at B to F.
karakedi25: Meren hasn't left MW either. She'll want to spend some time in Rivenell.
VardaValar1: Pardon, I need to get off the computer. Namarie!
karakedi25: namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but we have to actually take advantage of the chance for development at points B though F for them to be useful.
karakedi25: agreed. I'd like to see us gain some cohesion
ArPharazonV: Sounds good to me. We could have some group bonding and conversation scenes at some of those.
VardaValar1: That was fast programming. I'm back. : )
Eonwe Valar: WB :}
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
VardaValar1: Would you folks like to call it for the night?

Eonwe Valar: Probably a good time to. About time for those of us who are going to try to gather for ICC to head that way.
ArPharazonV: Ah, good luck!
VardaValar1: Namarie
karakedi25: ICC?
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Icecrown Citadel.
karakedi25: ah
Eonwe Valar: Top raid of WoW right now. We're going to give it a try if we have enough.
Eonwe Valar: Take care all, good night, sleep well, and have fun :}
ArPharazonV: you too
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
karakedi25: namarie
karakedi25 has left the room.
Ancbeard has left the room.
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
AriehnV has left the room.
arwenv1 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Alone right now, but... sssaving and sending