ArPharazonV: gonna save and send
(6:24:37 PM) AriehnV: its in the silmarillion according to the article reffering to the orin of Eagles
(6:24:38 PM) ArPharazonV:saved
(6:24:51 PM) AriehnV: all right Phara sleep well :-)
(6:25:02 PM) VardaValar1: Namarie, Phar!
(6:26:24 PM) Indis: OK
I found the reference in Aule and Yavanna: ...and before the Children
awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the
Lords of the West.
(6:26:25 PM) VardaValar1: The Treason of Isengard has a lot of references
(6:26:49 PM) ArPharazonV:sent
(6:26:59 PM) VardaValar1: Aye, that reference is just for the non-Maiar, good one.
(6:27:02 PM) VardaValar1: Thanks Phar : )
(6:27:16 PM) Indis: And then discussion of the fact that the trees will
not be high enough but that the eagles will prefer the mountaintops.
(6:27:23 PM) VardaValar1: but one could speculate that they could be Maiar also.
(6:27:40 PM) Indis: yes, if the Istari were Maiar, so could be the Great Eagles
(6:27:42 PM) VardaValar1: Possibly a mix.
(6:28:14 PM) VardaValar1: Since some at least of the eagles were apparently born, possibly not all were Maiar.
(6:28:59 PM) Indis: Maiar could have progeny (Luthien)
(6:29:11 PM) ArPharazonV:Maiar have not shown any progeny among themselves though
(6:29:31 PM) ArPharazonV:Luthien was as mortal (well, for lack of a better term) as her father
(6:29:44 PM) VardaValar1: Ainur to Ainur do not have progeny, but outside, it happened.
(6:30:08 PM) ArPharazonV:so if all Eagles started as Maiar, no new ones
could've been born unless they crossed with other birds for example
(6:30:13 PM) Indis: the fact that it isn't documented doesn't mean it couldn't or didn't happen
(6:30:36 PM) Eonwe Valar: Taking a physical form, Ainur were capable of all things an incarnate being is capable of.
(6:31:18 PM) Eonwe Valar: The original conception in BoLT and for a
time even up to early drafts of LotR was that the Valar did have
(6:31:42 PM) Indis: the original Eonwe was a child of Manwe, as I remember
(6:31:47 PM) ArPharazonV:True. But that idea was quickly thrown out the
window, and I wonder if Maiar amongst themselves were any different.
(6:31:49 PM) Eonwe Valar: Aye, Fionwë
(6:31:51 PM) ArPharazonV:Aye, Fionwe
(6:32:13 PM) VardaValar1: :-)
(6:32:17 PM) ArPharazonV:if the Maiar can only have children with the Children (again, for lack of a better term)...
(6:32:20 PM) AriehnV: they certainly served as messengers for Manwe and Eonwe about the on-goings in Middle - Earth
(6:32:30 PM) Eonwe Valar: Well, if it made it to the early drafts of LotR, it wasn't thrown out *that* quickly :}
(6:32:34 PM) ArPharazonV:then theoretically, a Vala could have progeny with lesser races too?
(6:32:50 PM) Eonwe Valar: If one desired, then yes.
(6:33:06 PM) VardaValar1: Most of the Valar were already spoken for, but some were single.
(6:33:08 PM) Indis: they probably recognized the can of worms it would open, though
(6:33:10 PM) Eonwe Valar: That's one of the theories of orcs, actually.
(6:33:12 PM) VardaValar1: Aye, Indis.
(6:33:18 PM) ArPharazonV:It is?
(6:33:30 PM) Eonwe Valar: Something I came across during my Dwarf article.
(6:33:33 PM) ArPharazonV:Morgoth as father or something?
(6:33:41 PM) Eonwe Valar: No, Maiar who served Morgoth.
(6:33:48 PM) ArPharazonV:Ah. Good. More plausible.
(6:34:07 PM) Indis: /
(6:34:20 PM) Eonwe Valar: as they procreated though, they and
succeeding generations dwindled in native power, and became stuck to
their incarnate form.
(6:34:45 PM) Indis: the result of inbreeding?
(6:34:51 PM) ArPharazonV:Heh.
(6:34:58 PM) Eonwe Valar: It's one of the ideas Tolkien considered, and even cited Melian in the discussion.
(6:35:09 PM) AriehnV: they dont seem powerful enough for that
(6:35:23 PM) VardaValar1: When
one remembers that one generation in was enough to make Luthien mortal,
it might not have taken long to degenerate quite a bit.
(6:35:45 PM) Indis: Luthien wasn't born mortal, and she had powers from her mother
(6:36:08 PM) VardaValar1: She married a mortal, and became mortal.
(6:36:24 PM) ArPharazonV:(mortal not meaning "aging" here)
(6:36:52 PM) Indis: it's true that she's not an Ainu
(6:36:57 PM) ArPharazonV:I'm off folks! Please save this part of the discussion as a transcript :)
(6:37:18 PM) VardaValar1: Melian was an Ainu, her offspring was not, but more of an elf.
(6:37:27 PM) VardaValar1: So there is one step down already.
(6:37:30 PM) Indis: something of a super-elf
(6:37:45 PM) ArPharazonV:Namarie!
(6:37:50 PM) Indis: namarie!
(6:37:51 PM) VardaValar1: Very beautiful, strong in song-power.
(6:37:54 PM) VardaValar1: Namarie :-)
(6:38:24 PM) ArPharazonV left the room.
(6:38:31 PM) VardaValar1: But the super-elf if we want to say that, married a mortal and became mortal.
(6:38:40 PM) Indis: by choice
(6:39:13 PM) VardaValar1: So
if the orc idea of starting by crossing Maiar out had been used, it
might not take long to degenerate, as the stock would not be all that
(6:39:31 PM) Indis: and it would be inbred
(6:39:37 PM) VardaValar1: One wonders if those folks would have any hope of choice.
(6:39:42 PM) Indis: small genepool
(6:39:43 PM) AriehnV: aye
.. the orcs had no choice i guess , and even if they were Maiar pressed
into service of MOrgoth , he is likely to have used fear and threat and
maybe temptation to lure them#
(6:40:06 PM) Indis: /1
(6:40:22 PM) VardaValar1: Also true if orcs came from corrupted elves, with the outcrossing to evil men.
(6:40:30 PM) VardaValar1: Mortality comes in again.
(6:41:10 PM) Indis: the orcs were made 'in mockery of the Children'
(6:41:25 PM) VardaValar1: In mockery of the elves, right.
(6:41:31 PM) VardaValar1: Trolls in mockery of the ents.
(6:41:49 PM) Indis: I believe the quote is 'in mockery of the Children,' but I'd have to find it
(6:41:56 PM) VardaValar1: Originality was not something the bad guys handled well.
(6:42:12 PM) AriehnV: the Nazgul in mockery of the dragons?
(6:42:18 PM) AriehnV: or Eagles?#
(6:42:24 PM) VardaValar1: Fell beasts?
(6:42:43 PM) AriehnV: aye their mounts i mean
(6:43:05 PM) Indis: ok, it's mockery of the Elves in Of the Coming of the Elves
(6:43:06 PM) VardaValar1: Dragons did seem to be with Morgoth - can't think of any before that. Need to check.
(6:43:38 PM) Eonwe Valar: Dragons were bred by Morgoth. What stock they were bred from is the question.
(6:44:01 PM) VardaValar1: One hopes they didn't use corrupted eagles in the mix.
(6:44:30 PM) VardaValar1: Back to our friend, Landroval-V. What does he need to rp his character?
(6:44:33 PM) Eonwe Valar: Since wings were a later addition, I doubt it.
(6:44:46 PM) Indis: Melkor was quite the corrupt bioscientist, which fits with Tolkien's suspicion of science
(6:44:49 PM) Eonwe Valar: We've discussed size and we've disccused origin.
(6:44:51 PM) VardaValar1: Ancalagon, the Black Dragon, got his wings somewhere.
(6:45:37 PM) VardaValar1: Landroval himself, however. What relatives, was he one of the Maiar or an intelligent bird?
(6:46:02 PM) VardaValar1: What did he do in the books?
(6:46:04 PM) Eonwe Valar: I
don't know if I'd say Tolkien was suspicious of "science." he used the
word "sciences" a few times describing Dwarves' knoweldge in some part
(6:46:13 PM) Eonwe Valar: *some parts of
(6:47:03 PM) Eonwe Valar: I stand by my opinion on Huan with this one: intelligent animal.
(6:47:06 PM) Indis: I believe he rescued Frodo and Sam
(6:47:18 PM) Indis: together with gwaihir
(6:47:29 PM) VardaValar1: and one other named eagle. : )
(6:47:35 PM) VardaValar1: (Also a server name)
(6:48:08 PM) Eonwe Valar: And
aye, he rescued Frodo and Sam, he fought at the Black Gate,.. well
"fought" being more like grabbing orcs and letting them fall, but still
(6:48:23 PM) Indis: sounds like pretty effective fighting to me
(6:48:50 PM) AriehnV: hmm that was Meneldir
(6:48:57 PM) Indis: Meneldor?
(6:49:04 PM) AriehnV: Menldor it is aye
(6:49:04 PM) Eonwe Valar: Meneldur as I recall.
(6:49:19 PM) AriehnV: hehe ok that ll be it ^^ me and names
(6:49:50 PM) Eonwe Valar: Nope, seems it was Meneldor. Meneldur was the fifth king of Numenor.
(6:50:12 PM) Indis: Meneldor was one of the Eagles who helped at the fight at the Black Gate ..
(6:50:15 PM) Eonwe Valar: One letter changes alot :}
(6:50:38 PM) Indis: italics were in the quote I picked up from Google
(6:51:06 PM) VardaValar1: There is an unnamed eagle who brought tidings to Gondor.
(6:51:08 PM) Indis: it was also the name of the live server during closed beta
(6:51:13 PM) Eonwe Valar: I just grabbed the Complete Guide to Middle-Earth :}
(6:51:24 PM) Eonwe Valar: *grabbed my
(6:51:55 PM) VardaValar1: This eagle tells Minas Tirith of the fall of Sauron and that their King will come back to them.
(6:52:08 PM) VardaValar1: and the Tree renewed.
(6:52:23 PM) VardaValar1: "The Steward and the King" RotK
(6:52:54 PM) VardaValar1: "he bore tidings beyond hope from the Lords of the West"
(6:53:16 PM) Indis: that definitely sounds like one of the great eagles
(6:53:57 PM) VardaValar1: Yes, it says "there came a great Eagle flying"
(6:54:14 PM) AriehnV: i remember
(6:54:38 PM) VardaValar1: As I've just been reminded, don't forget to check on the forum rp and see if we want to add anything.
(6:55:26 PM) VardaValar1: I had forgotten that reference, caught me by
surprise whilst page flipping, one more reason to use the books. : )
(6:56:39 PM) VardaValar1: An interesting bit about the eagles going to Frodo and Sam is
(6:57:00 PM) VardaValar1: that they rode a wild wind.
(6:57:10 PM) VardaValar1: cold blasting gale.
(6:57:26 PM) VardaValar1: It drove back the darkness and the ruin of clouds.
(6:57:47 PM) VardaValar1: With that mess out of the way, Gwaihir could spot them.
(6:58:04 PM) VardaValar1: Wind, of course, belongs to Manwe.
(6:58:37 PM) VardaValar1: Every time we hear of wind in the story being mentioned strongly, it behooves us to pay attention.
(6:58:48 PM) VardaValar1: As when it blows away such smoky figures as Saruman's and Sauron's.
(6:59:45 PM) VardaValar1: Ash had still been falling from the volcano.
(7:00:12 PM) VardaValar1: Gwaihir's very name, Windlord, reminds us of the wind.
(7:00:42 PM) VardaValar1: Gwaihir is Landroval's brother.
(7:01:48 PM) VardaValar1: Gwaihir is "greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the descendents of old Thorondor..."
(7:02:07 PM) VardaValar1: Landroval was surely no slouch with Gwaihir for a brother. : )
(7:02:36 PM) VardaValar1: It wasn't just three eagles out there.
(7:03:14 PM) VardaValar1: Behind those two, "in long swift lines came
all their vassals from the northern mountains, speeding in a gathering
(7:03:20 PM) VardaValar1: *on
(7:03:58 PM) VardaValar1: "Straight
down upon the Nazgul they bore, stooping suddenly out of the high airs,
and the rush of their wide wings as they passed over was like a gale."
(7:04:31 PM) VardaValar1: The Nazgul left then, but because they were called away by Sauron.
(7:04:48 PM) VardaValar1: "The Field of Cormallen" RotK
(7:05:53 PM) VardaValar1: Does anyone remember the wind blowing away Sauron's last appearance?
(7:06:11 PM) Eonwe Valar: Aye.
(7:06:52 PM) VardaValar1: "...black against the pall of cloud, there
rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling
all the sky.
(7:07:26 PM) VardaValar1: "Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast, threatening hand,
(7:07:28 PM) Indis: yes, I remember. Much more dramatic than Saruman's end
(7:08:11 PM) VardaValar1: 'terrible
but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it,
and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell."
(7:10:44 PM) VardaValar1: After
that, Aragorn had to deal with the confused forces of Sauron, but
Gandalf called Gwaihir and asked him to bring his brother Landroval,
and another of their folk who was most swift.
(7:11:02 PM) VardaValar1: Meneldor was the one chosen by the eagles for his speed.
(7:11:16 PM) VardaValar1: also mentioned as young.
(7:11:49 PM) VardaValar1: Do we want to look at the Hobbit or are you all pretty well ready to leave? : )
(7:12:39 PM) AriehnV: i ve got the hobbit down here i dont mind#
(7:12:50 PM) VardaValar1: You're still awake! yay!
(7:13:09 PM) AriehnV: hehe aye i ve been checking those passages in LotR
(7:13:12 PM) VardaValar1: The eagles' story is told a bit out of order, as Bilbo learned it out of order.
(7:13:26 PM) VardaValar1: Easy side-tracking there!
(7:14:25 PM) VardaValar1: In
the H, "The Return Journey", the Eagles had been suspiciously watching
the mustering of the goblins, something that even the mountains could
not completely hide.
(7:14:51 PM) AriehnV: I
remember though from the Hobbit that the Eagles were described as a
proud and almost ferocious people , even a bit arrogant , but not
(7:15:15 PM) VardaValar1: They gathered in great numbers , under the Eagle of the Misty Mountains.
(7:16:12 PM) VardaValar1: "...at length, smelling battle from afar they had come speeding down the gale in the nick of time.
(7:17:19 PM) VardaValar1: "They
it was who dislodged the goblins from the mountain-slopes, casting them
over precipices, or driving them down shrieking and bewildered among
(7:18:07 PM) VardaValar1: "It
was not long before they freed the Lonely Mountain, and elves and men
on either side of the valley could come at last to the help of the
(7:18:32 PM) VardaValar1: "But even with the Eagles they were still outnumbered."
(7:18:39 PM) VardaValar1: That's when Beorn comes.
(7:20:25 PM) VardaValar1: After
most of the actual battle is over, some stay to help hunt the fleeing
goblins, but most return to their eyries at first light of morning.
(7:20:53 PM) VardaValar1: "Dain has crowned their chief with gold, and sworn friendship with them for ever."
(7:22:14 PM) VardaValar1: Apparently Bilbo had been first to spot the
Eagles as they first came and the elves heard his cry and took it up.
(7:22:32 PM) VardaValar1: That looks pretty much like all I see about them.
(7:22:59 PM) Indis: didn't they rescue Gandalf et al. at one point in the Hobbit?
(7:23:17 PM) Eonwe Valar: From the wolves, aye.
(7:23:28 PM) VardaValar1: From the trees with the wolves and goblins all around,
(7:23:36 PM) VardaValar1: and the dwarves and hobbit too.
(7:23:44 PM) VardaValar1: I meant all at the Battle of Five Armies, pardon.
(7:24:31 PM) VardaValar1: "Out of the Frying Pan into the Fire" aye
(7:25:48 PM) AriehnV: "away from the computer into the bed " more likely ;-)
(7:26:14 PM) VardaValar1: Gilraen
is here, I can't invite because it says already have a session since
she is chatting with me. Eonwe, could you do the honors for Iryenth,
(7:26:31 PM) VardaValar1: It's only 6:26 here. : )
(7:26:42 PM) Eonwe Valar: Hmmm.
(7:26:43 PM) AriehnV: hehe 00.26 :-)
(7:26:55 PM) VardaValar1: Poor Arien and Fladrif. : )
(7:27:03 PM) VardaValar1: Flad probably is asleep, aye.
(7:27:15 PM) Eonwe Valar: I thought Gilraen was on my list of Valar Guild members, but apparently she's not..
(7:27:15 PM) Fladrifv: wakes up
(7:27:22 PM) Fladrifv: to see the time is there to sleep
(7:27:31 PM) VardaValar1: Iyrenth is the name she's using now
(7:27:34 PM) VardaValar1: She said:
(7:27:36 PM) VardaValar1: Aiya. Just got back from dinner for Gwai's father's birthday.
(7:27:44 PM) Fladrifv: namarie all
(7:27:54 PM) VardaValar1: Namarie, sorry you missed the eagle chat.
(7:27:54 PM) Indis: namarie, Flad
(7:28:02 PM) AriehnV: Namarie Ent and all Valarites :-)
(7:28:16 PM) AriehnV: ivery enjoyable tonight as usual
(7:28:16 PM) Fladrifv: namarie Arien
(7:28:28 PM) AriehnV left the room.
(7:28:43 PM) VardaValar1: Namarie
(7:28:47 PM) VardaValar1: belatedly
(7:29:10 PM) Eonwe Valar: Is that an "L" or an "i" at the beginning of Iyrenth?
(7:29:46 PM) VardaValar1: i
(7:31:46 PM) Eonwe Valar: Well
in theory she's in my list, but I don't see her, so as soon as I can
figure out how to get a blank chat invite, I'll send one.
(7:32:23 PM) VardaValar1: Iryenth
(7:32:27 PM) Fladrifv left the room.
(7:32:43 PM) VardaValar1: She's still chatting with me, so she's on.
(7:32:55 PM) VardaValar1: Try a copy paste of the name I just put up?
(7:33:08 PM) Eonwe Valar: I have to find the invite selection first :}
(7:33:36 PM) VardaValar1: Details :-)
(7:33:39 PM) Eonwe Valar: OK, finally found what I was supposed to do in this version.
(7:34:15 PM) Eonwe Valar: It says iryenth is not available.
(7:35:00 PM) VardaValar1: For me it says already in a session with her.
(7:35:24 PM) Eonwe Valar: OK, for reference for those who need/ want to know, a few things about AIM v7.0
(7:36:03 PM) Eonwe Valar: 1.)
You can invite a person to the current chatroom by entering their name
in a text box that sits right above the list over people in the
(7:36:38 PM) Eonwe Valar: It's not very obvious, but that spot to the left of the "add" button is a text box.
(7:36:44 PM) VardaValar1: ah hah! Didn't see that. Been clicking the name or using the menu at the top of the buddy list.
(7:37:13 PM) VardaValar1: I see a tiny word Menu with a down arrow on the right of it.
(7:37:18 PM) Eonwe Valar: 2.) You save a chatroom by right-click the chat and selecting "Save this conversation" from the menu.
(7:37:53 PM) VardaValar1: Add is just to the right of the list of people in the room.
(7:37:59 PM) VardaValar1: on top.
(7:38:00 PM) Eonwe Valar: 3.) In the menu mentioned in 2.), you can also turn off the block form of the chat.
(7:38:57 PM) Eonwe Valar: On my screen, the add button is sitting on
top above the list of people, with the "menu" option in the title bar.
(7:39:14 PM) VardaValar1: yay, check marking Block improved the look, aye.
(7:39:25 PM) Eonwe Valar: That is, the Menu option is in the title bar, the "add" button is not.
(7:40:31 PM) Eonwe Valar: Show
Im "Bubbles" is the toggle ability in the menu, on and text is in
blocks, off and it's like it was in the previous versions.
(7:41:37 PM) VardaValar1: She's trying to come in on her own, seems to show the room, but not going anywhere.
(7:41:41 PM) VardaValar1: Sounds like last week.
(7:42:43 PM) VardaValar1: She's in 6.9, said she didn't like the newest version.
(7:43:13 PM) Eonwe Valar:I had trouble inviting myself in from the old version, but Phar invited me just fine, so I don't know.
(7:47:45 PM) VardaValar1: I'm going to put in some quotes from the Hobbit, "Out of the Frying-pan Into the Fire".
(7:47:55 PM) VardaValar1: After their rescue:
(7:48:03 PM) VardaValar1:
"Gandalf, who had often been in the mountains, had once rendered a
service to the eagles and healed their lord from an arrow-wound."
(7:48:36 PM) VardaValar1:
"The Lord of the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men
lived. 'They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew,' he said,
'for they would think we were after their sheep. And at other times
they would be right.
(7:48:47 PM) VardaValar1: "
No! We are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay
our thanks to you, but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the
(7:48:55 PM) VardaValar1: The party mentions hunger and the eagles
quickly hunt food for them: rabbits, hares, and a small sheep.
(7:49:06 PM) VardaValar1: hmm, a small sheep. ;-)
(7:49:36 PM) Eonwe Valar::}
(7:50:03 PM) VardaValar1: The next chapter "Queer Lodgings" continues
with the eagles, including Bilbo riding an eagle's back, who asks him
not to pinch.
(7:50:25 PM) VardaValar1: 15 eagles
(7:51:12 PM) VardaValar1: A handy rp item here tells the proper farewell and response between eagles.
(7:51:56 PM) VardaValar1: "Farewell!" they cried, "wherever you fare, till your eyries receive you at the journey's end!"
(7:52:33 PM) VardaValar1: "May the wind under your wings bear you where the sun sails and the moon walks."
(7:53:49 PM) VardaValar1: It
says the Lord of the Eagles became in after days the King of All Birds
and wore a golden crown, and his fifteen chieftains golden collars
(made of the gold that the dwarves gave them)
(7:54:09 PM) VardaValar1: Bilbo saw them again high and far off in the battle of Five Armies.
(7:54:36 PM) VardaValar1: So, would the Lord of the Eagles be Gwaihir?
(7:54:58 PM) Indis: How long did the eagles live?
(7:55:13 PM) Indis: if they were of part ainur kind, might live for a long time
(7:55:28 PM) Indis: and perhaps they were like the Dunedain, long-lived without being ainur
(7:55:52 PM) Eonwe Valar:Thorondor himself seemed to be around for much of the First Age of the Sun.
(7:56:24 PM) Indis: so Gwaihir himself might have appeared in the HObbit
(7:57:47 PM) Eonwe Valar:Gwaihir did.
(7:58:42 PM) Indis: going to be joining a raid in LotRO, so very much
in and out (mostly out) during the rest of the meeting, probably
(7:59:13 PM) VardaValar1: Its
interesting reading the Hobbit again after reading the other books,
knowing things about them that were only in the back of JRRT's mind
then, or not thought of at all yet.
(7:59:30 PM) VardaValar1: This is the point at which I planned to stop, now that we looked at the Hobbit.
(7:59:42 PM) VardaValar1: No one seems to be adding more now, so let's call it here.
(7:59:51 PM) VardaValar1: After-meeting.
(8:05:46 PM) VardaValar1: Someone please send a transcript
(8:06:00 PM) VardaValar1: Mine apparently didn't save and Eonwe is having trouble also.
(7:12:07 PM) VardaValar1: ok, found a way to save.
(7:12:28 PM) VardaValar1: Indis and Eomer are hoping to send a copy, so we should have something to work with. : )
(7:12:30 PM) VardaValar1: Namarie!
(7:13:41 PM) Eonwe Valar:Take care and have fun.
(7:13:46 PM) VardaValar1: You too : )
(7:14:12 PM) VardaValar1: Oscars starting soon.
(7:14:16 PM) VardaValar1 left the room.
(7:14:31 PM) karakedi25 left the room.
(7:17:27 PM) IWF519 left the room.
(7:31:40 PM) Eonwe Valar:What a pain this saving problem is.
(7:34:50 PM) arwenv1: j,,
(7:34:52 PM) arwenv1: er
(7:34:54 PM) arwenv1: I can save what I have
(7:34:57 PM) arwenv1: but I entered late
(7:35:33 PM) Eonwe Valar:I'm sure Varda wouldn't mind whatever she can get, just in case.
(7:54:36 PM) Eonwe Valar:OK, think I'll call it here. Take care and have a good night.
(7:54:49 PM) Eonwe Valar left the room.