Valar Guild

March 7, 2010 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Logs from Ar-Pharazon (transcript with no timestamps), Indis (transcript with EST timestamps fore to the start of the After-meeting), Arwen (transcript with CST timestamps fore), Eomer, and Eonwe. Webwork by Varda.

Attending: (8)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, arwenv, Eomer-(V)/IWF519, Eonwe Valar, fladrifv, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, VardaValar1 (presiding)
    Gilraen tried but was unable to enter the chat room.

Meeting begins
    A death in Arien's family.
    New members this week: Gwindor-(V) and Nellas-(V)
    Topic requested by Landroval-(V): Information from the books about the Great Eagles, especially as a help to role-playing.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: interesting...
ArPharazonV: what?
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Aiya Varda!
ArPharazonV: I'm still on the old AIM, to be honest.
VardaValar1: Tried Pidgin, but it wouldn't let me in.
VardaValar1: New one, here.
ArPharazonV: And I think I managed to invite Eonwe, right before he shut down for the new one.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: OK, I think I'm here now... again.
ArPharazonV: Aiya :-)
VardaValar1: Pidgin said it had an unexpected problem signing into an http:// with the oscars on it. Maybe because that's disabled on AIM on purpose.
VardaValar1: Yay!
Eonwe Valar: And I don't really like the look of this new AIM.
VardaValar1: I'm not keen on it either.
ArPharazonV: I'm still on the old AIM. The problems with the chatroom vanished somewhere in the middle of the past week, as I've been trying regularly.
Eonwe Valar: The screen is like a simpler version of the Games Page news. Doesn't work for a chat window in my humble opinion.
VardaValar1: Good description.
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: I would still have version 6, but my invitations were timing out before taking me into the channel.
VardaValar1: Yay Flad made it!
fladrifv: so it seems
fladrifv: beg murphy to stay calm
ArPharazonV: I'm back on 5.9 now, though it nags me about installing 6 every time I start AIM, since I downloaded the upgrade last week.
fladrifv: and have mercy this time
ArPharazonV: I've been looking into ways to disable that message, but I'm not sure if it's possible.
VardaValar1: The AIM problems seem to be clearing up. One hopes their team has been earning their paychecks this week. :-)
fladrifv: they are on water and bread for the rest of the month
VardaValar1: hehehe
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: Aiya all :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien!
VardaValar1: It's behaving pretty well so far. :-)
AriehnV: how is it going so far then :-) good good
Eonwe Valar: Trying to adjust to this new AIM look in v7.0
VardaValar1: It's very odd, but workable.
VardaValar1: Let's go for it. :-)

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: Do any of you have membership news?
AriehnV: hmm not much , only that the mother of my brother in law has died last saturday
Eonwe Valar: My condolences, Arien.
VardaValar1: Rough.
VardaValar1: Glad you could be here with us today.
ArPharazonV: indeed, condolences
AriehnV: cheers :-( as far as i heard she was very ill and maybe it was best for her
VardaValar1: We have cheerier news as well for the guild.
VardaValar1: Two new members joined the same day this week.
VardaValar1: A friend of Melkor's family took a test with Orome-Valar and came in as Gwindor-V.
VardaValar1: He used to be in the guild back in DAoC but forgot what name he had then, took this one because he liked the character. :-)
VardaValar1: He is playing with us in LotRO, new to the game and having fun learning it. Feel free to send him new guy stuff for his two characters.
AriehnV: i met him actually :-)
AriehnV: seems a nice guy
VardaValar1: I agree. :-)
VardaValar1: The same day, a young lady responded to one of my rare calls for new kin members, something I shouldn't make a rare thing. Sorry about that.
VardaValar1: She joined us as Nellas-V
Eonwe Valar: Others could scout *cough* :}
AriehnV: :-)
VardaValar1: She's in college and shares her computer with her family, but comes on a fair bit.
VardaValar1: One thing about scouting, it's good to do it at a time when you like to play so you can see them again. : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
VardaValar1: Fangorn is back til Wednesday, then will be gone to work for two weeks, so he's playing WoW very hard right now.
VardaValar1: That's all my Membership news. Anyone else?

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: My backup files are slowly being updated, and therefore letting me work on the encyc a bit, but mostly it's background stuff.
VardaValar1: I hope to be doing more with new articles and other content when that is all cleared up.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, did you have any web news?
Eonwe Valar: Still working on Games Page improvements :} One step forward, usually only half a step back at this point :}
VardaValar1: I hear that! hehe

VardaValar1: Gaming:
Discussion: Gaming reports, use forums, updating the Games page.
Various games, WoW, LotRO.

VardaValar1: Gaming reports need to be kept down to what is relevant to the guild and the ones present, so that would be mostly what games we played, and maybe who we saw in the kin online.
(5:31:05 PM) karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: Aiya!
karakedi25: I see it's fixed!
VardaValar1: Aiya INdis
Eonwe Valar: Heya Indis.
VardaValar1: Aye, the AIM people seem to have stablilized things this week. :-)
VardaValar1: I'll repeat that last bit.
AriehnV: aiya indis :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
karakedi25: good news!
VardaValar1: Gaming reports need to be kept down to what is relevant to the guild and the ones present, so that would be mostly what games we played, and maybe who we saw in the kin online.
VardaValar1: Go ahead, Indis.
VardaValar1: oh, you meant AIM. :-)
karakedi25: with lotro?
VardaValar1: All gaming reports.
karakedi25: yes, I meant AIM
karakedi25: have you discussed the others yet?
VardaValar1: No
karakedi25: why don't you go ahead and do that so I can get some tea :-)
VardaValar1: Originally the reports were intended to be about the one special game day for each game per week.
VardaValar1: I am trying to. Enjoy your tea. :-)
ArPharazonV: Originally? As in.. Diablo times?
VardaValar1: We had a particular day for each game.
VardaValar1: No, for each game.
ArPharazonV: Hmm.
VardaValar1: Wednesday was Uldaman server, Friday was Lothar server, Monday was LotRO.
Eonwe Valar: In Diablo times there was little reason to report about gaming done. We were all in the same game, more or less :}
VardaValar1: But that fell apart after a bit.
VardaValar1: Aye, no need then.
ArPharazonV: true, Eonwe
VardaValar1: So the gaming reports became very scattered of late, taking far too much time with too little content relevant for the group here.
VardaValar1: So until we get some pre-planned events to report, major group events, or pre-planned coming up, we need to keep it down to general reports and maybe who we saw.
VardaValar1: I rather doubt the WoW folk want to know who we see in LotRO, but I could be wrong about that. Second Life has as many Valarites as AD WoW now.
VardaValar1: Comments are invited at this time. Blaze away. : )
ArPharazonV: Which isn't very hard to accomplish, I could say..
ArPharazonV: though we're also 2 on Guildwars now *grins*
VardaValar1: I know at least four Second Life Valarites.
Eonwe Valar: I'd like more members (and I know I'm preaching to the choir when I tell this to those present) use the forums. No surprise who we see in different games if we're getting to know eachother through the forum (and hopefully meetings :})
VardaValar1: We had more than that on Guild Wars, but I don't think they are coordinating with the Games page.
VardaValar1: It helps to know game/server/ and player names to get together.
VardaValar1: Times would help if possible, but seems really difficult.
Eonwe Valar: I haven't recieved anything new since the GPMU, new members aside.
VardaValar1: When people mention a game they play in this chat, do you consider that something to update with?
ArPharazonV: maybe it should be considered GPMU worthy if the people who mention it also imply that they're going to play it longer term?
Eonwe Valar: It would be easier to send me a PM/IM or e-mail, so I don't have to pull open the files during the meeting to make sure I get that kind of information in the Games Page.
AriehnV: pfft cant log in Guild Wars atm , the game doesnt remember my account name
ArPharazonV: egad,not that again... had that a few weeks back, was some patch-issue
ArPharazonV: I'll try it
VardaValar1: We can say which games we played this week, starting with non-WoW, non-LotRO.
Eonwe Valar: I conduct the GPMU assuming that people who say they play a game are going to play it at least throughout that year. If that changes, or they add new games, I would certainly like to update that info between the GPMUs.

Various Games:
VardaValar1: I think it was this past week that I was on Second Life, much improved with the new comp. Also BroodWar with the family.

karakedi25: what is GPMU?
Eonwe Valar: GPMU = Games Page Mass-Update.
Eonwe Valar: I wipe the gaming slate clean and ask everyone to send in their current gaming info.
karakedi25: thanks
Eonwe Valar: Sometimes includes chunks of updates to the Games Page as well.

VardaValar1: Indis, did you want to mention your Second Life character name or just leave it as something you no longer play?
karakedi25: If we're still in non-wow, non-lotro, let me mention that I've had a character in SL for years.
karakedi25: But I haven't been there for a very long time.
karakedi25: My character's name is Kitra Kothari.
karakedi25: Used to have a landscaping business and sell plants that she made.
VardaValar1: Thanks. Just not something you want on the Games page, but ok to add to our buddy lists?
karakedi25: certainly
VardaValar1: okies
VardaValar1: Any other non-WoW non-LotRO games played this last week?
VardaValar1: Fladrif alive over there?
ArPharazonV: hmm, some Guildwars just now ;-)
karakedi25: he's sunk roots and gone to sleep
ArPharazonV: just to try to meet up with Arien in chat, but she didn't manage to get in
VardaValar1: This part of the report is where anyone is allowed to just say something freely.
VardaValar1: If we're done with that section, let's move on.

VardaValar1: Do we have any general news for WoW?
ArPharazonV: oh, and wow-related, I found an interesting live journal site that's dedicated to the mockery of ridiculously lorebreaking and other backstories in WoW
arwenv1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arwen. :-) Just started on WoW talk. : )
ArPharazonV: It really has some funny stuff, spent the last 2 weeks browsing the archives or so, and I don't think I'm halfway
VardaValar1: Address?
VardaValar1: Thanks
IWF519 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eomer : )
ArPharazonV: sometimes the language might not be up to Valar-standards, but for those who don't mind, it has some funny stuff
IWF519: Aiya!
karakedi25: Aiya, Eomer :-)
VardaValar1: Any other general WoW news or fellow Valarites you've seen?
VardaValar1: Lothar server has had Fangorn, Bilbo, Arwen, Eowyn, Eonwe, Sauron, Varda, and some guild friends.
VardaValar1: Did you see anyone else on Argent Dawn server?

VardaValar1: Ok, moving to LotRO.
VardaValar1: Indis has a report on the Volume 3 expansion. Go ahead, Indis.
karakedi25: The biggest recent thing is the new expansion, consisting so far of a prologue and the first 'book,' or major segment.
karakedi25: It begins with a call by Elrond and a tasking to muster the rangers to form the Grey Company. Has us chasing all over Eriador with various new instances and a new skirmish.
karakedi25: At the end, there's an indication that we will probably accompany the Grey Company on its trip south, so best bet is that the promised new landmass will be Enedwaith/Dunland
karakedi25: We've had very good attendance--Varda, Tulkas, Orome, Eomer, Pippin, new member Gwindor...
karakedi25: Landroval (the player), Gorlim, ....who else?
karakedi25: Eonwe of course!
VardaValar1: Nellas, also a new member
karakedi25: Lindir
karakedi25: me
VardaValar1: Faramir
AriehnV has left the room.
karakedi25: yes, Faramir for sure
karakedi25: Arien
karakedi25: who else?
VardaValar1: Gorlim
karakedi25: mentioned
VardaValar1: Nimrodel and Gildor daily
karakedi25: oh of course!
karakedi25: anyway, a very good showing
VardaValar1: I'm not in it right now to check the kin list, but that would show the recent week by sorting.
VardaValar1: Notes were added to the friend list, a big help.
karakedi25: yes, very big
VardaValar1: What about the new crafting stuff?
IWF519: the expansion also adds a new skirmish set in The Rift, a player favorite raid instance
karakedi25: I haven't tried them yet, but there are new high-end recipes.
IWF519: lots of new high lvl food
VardaValar1: Aye, that's quite a fun run. : )
karakedi25: yes, and it can be played by one, two, three, six, or 12 people
IWF519: and there were some alterations to jewelry recipes
karakedi25: the more people, the tougher it gets.
VardaValar1: New jewelry and cooking high end were the latest, others probably coming later. Also we craft relics for our Legendary Items.
karakedi25: Some of us tried with 6 in the Rift, and it was mean.
VardaValar1: The Rift 6-man is bugged - more Caerogs than intended are called at the end.
VardaValar1: It's under Known Issues.
karakedi25: ah, that was a bug? Good to know. It was impossible.
VardaValar1: Should be very fun once that is corrected.
karakedi25: I did it with 3, and there was only one Caerog. Much more manageable.
VardaValar1: Solo is good also.
karakedi25: That's all I have.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Indis and Eomer. : )

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: The planned topic is thanks to a question from Landroval-V.
VardaValar1: He wanted to know more about the great eagles, so that he could play his character better.
VardaValar1: We could be of help to him there, by collecting some of what we know or can find here for him, maybe even adding to our current articles.
VardaValar1: What is the origin of the great eagles of Manwe? : )
karakedi25: The Great Eagles come in the Silmarilion. They may be mentioned in the description of Manwe in the Ainulindale.
VardaValar1: Feel free to dig out your books, folks.
VardaValar1: What other books are they mentioned in?
karakedi25: Are Thorondur and his kin technically great eagles of the family of Gwaihir?
Eonwe Valar: Yes.
karakedi25: the Hobbit and LotR, where they are dei ex machina
VardaValar1: Thorondor is a great eagle predating Gwaihir, yes.
Eonwe Valar: Thorondor himself was big enough to carry 2 Elves, so I'd say it's a safe bet :}
VardaValar1: In the H and LotR, certain things must play out and be proven before the eagles are allowed to come.
ArPharazonV: hmmm... if I recall correctly, the Eagles came from Manwe in the same timeperiod as the Ents and Dwarves... serving as messengers and spies for Manwe and being generally goodside
VardaValar1: Feel free to get out books. : )
Eonwe Valar: The Eagles did bring word to Manwë upon Taniquetil.
karakedi25: I believe more than generally. Is there any evidence of an eagle going over to the dark side?
VardaValar1: Nope.
ArPharazonV: if they still answer directly to Manwe even in the Third Age, it could be a reason for their late interference
ArPharazonV: "Let the mortal races do things their way, if they manage to hold their own we'll send in some help to clean up"
ArPharazonV: well I recall the Eagles in The Hobbit to be fairly neutral and dangerous for those who do not treat them with due respect
ArPharazonV: so that's not wholly good side
Eonwe Valar: "For Manwë to whom all birds are dear, and to whom they bring news upon Taniquetil from Middle-Earth, had sent forth the race of Eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of the North, and to keep watch upon Morgoth; for Manwë still had pity for the exiled Elves.
ArPharazonV: I could go get some books from upstairs but I should be logging out soon anyway
Eonwe Valar: And the Eagles brought news of much that passed in those days to the sad ears of Manwë."
Eonwe Valar: Asentence later, it describes Thorondor as "King of Eagles, mightiest of all birds that have ever been, whose outstretched wings spanned thirty fathoms"
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: ooops did it again ^^
Eonwe Valar: This is in "Of the Return of the Noldor" when Fingon goes to rescue Maedhros, who is chained by the hand on Thangorodrim.
VardaValar1: 1 fathom is 6 feet.
VardaValar1: 1,83 meters
Eonwe Valar: Aye. That's one big bird :}
VardaValar1: 180 foot wingspan.
karakedi25: In "Of the Beginning of Days": Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world. Thus they brought word to him (Manwe) of well nigh all that passed in Arda....
karakedi25: that may be the first mention of eagles
karakedi25: and it may suggest that they are Maiar, though that's never specified.
VardaValar1: That does suggest that at least some of the eagles could be Maiar, although others are creations of Yavanna and Manwe's thought.
Eonwe Valar: I remember coming upon a very small piece in one of the HoME books comenting about the Kelvar and Olvar, but alas, I do not remember which one it was off the top of my head.
VardaValar1: That's how we got away with using some of the named eagles for Maiar names in the guild. ;-)
VardaValar1: In reference to eagles, you mean?
VardaValar1: BoLT2 has a lot of eagle references in the Index. Great for names too. : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye, it was a part on that specific part of "Of Aulë and Yavanna" concerning her talk with Manwë about the Kelvar and Olvar.
VardaValar1: That would be a different book then.
karakedi25: If it's in HoME, it would be an earlier draft.
VardaValar1: Shaping of Middle-earth has a lot of eagle references.
ArPharazonV: anyway, I'm gonna go to sleep soon
ArPharazonV: gonna save and send
(6:24:37 PM) AriehnV: its in the silmarillion according to the article reffering to the orin of Eagles
(6:24:38 PM) ArPharazonV:saved
(6:24:51 PM) AriehnV: all right Phara sleep well :-)
(6:25:02 PM) VardaValar1: Namarie, Phar!
(6:26:24 PM) Indis: OK I found the reference in Aule and Yavanna: ...and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.
(6:26:25 PM) VardaValar1: The Treason of Isengard has a lot of references
(6:26:49 PM) ArPharazonV:sent
(6:26:59 PM) VardaValar1: Aye, that reference is just for the non-Maiar, good one.
(6:27:02 PM) VardaValar1: Thanks Phar : )
(6:27:16 PM) Indis: And then discussion of the fact that the trees will not be high enough but that the eagles will prefer the mountaintops.
(6:27:23 PM) VardaValar1: but one could speculate that they could be Maiar also.
(6:27:40 PM) Indis: yes, if the Istari were Maiar, so could be the Great Eagles
(6:27:42 PM) VardaValar1: Possibly a mix.
(6:28:14 PM) VardaValar1: Since some at least of the eagles were apparently born, possibly not all were Maiar.
(6:28:59 PM) Indis: Maiar could have progeny (Luthien)
(6:29:11 PM) ArPharazonV:Maiar have not shown any progeny among themselves though
(6:29:31 PM) ArPharazonV:Luthien was as mortal (well, for lack of a better term) as her father
(6:29:44 PM) VardaValar1: Ainur to Ainur do not have progeny, but outside, it happened.
(6:30:08 PM) ArPharazonV:so if all Eagles started as Maiar, no new ones could've been born unless they crossed with other birds for example
(6:30:13 PM) Indis: the fact that it isn't documented doesn't mean it couldn't or didn't happen
(6:30:36 PM) Eonwe Valar: Taking a physical form, Ainur were capable of all things an incarnate being is capable of.
(6:31:18 PM) Eonwe Valar: The original conception in BoLT and for a time even up to early drafts of LotR was that the Valar did have children.
(6:31:42 PM) Indis: the original Eonwe was a child of Manwe, as I remember
(6:31:47 PM) ArPharazonV:True. But that idea was quickly thrown out the window, and I wonder if Maiar amongst themselves were any different.
(6:31:49 PM) Eonwe Valar: Aye, Fionwë
(6:31:51 PM) ArPharazonV:Aye, Fionwe
(6:32:13 PM) VardaValar1: :-)
(6:32:17 PM) ArPharazonV:if the Maiar can only have children with the Children (again, for lack of a better term)...
(6:32:20 PM) AriehnV: they certainly served as messengers for Manwe and Eonwe about the on-goings in Middle - Earth
(6:32:30 PM) Eonwe Valar: Well, if it made it to the early drafts of LotR, it wasn't thrown out *that* quickly :}
(6:32:34 PM) ArPharazonV:then theoretically, a Vala could have progeny with lesser races too?
(6:32:50 PM) Eonwe Valar: If one desired, then yes.
(6:33:06 PM) VardaValar1: Most of the Valar were already spoken for, but some were single.
(6:33:08 PM) Indis: they probably recognized the can of worms it would open, though
(6:33:10 PM) Eonwe Valar: That's one of the theories of orcs, actually.
(6:33:12 PM) VardaValar1: Aye, Indis.
(6:33:18 PM) ArPharazonV:It is?
(6:33:30 PM) Eonwe Valar: Something I came across during my Dwarf article.
(6:33:33 PM) ArPharazonV:Morgoth as father or something?
(6:33:41 PM) Eonwe Valar: No, Maiar who served Morgoth.
(6:33:48 PM) ArPharazonV:Ah. Good. More plausible.
(6:34:07 PM) Indis: /
(6:34:20 PM) Eonwe Valar: as they procreated though, they and succeeding generations dwindled in native power, and became stuck to their incarnate form.
(6:34:45 PM) Indis: the result of inbreeding?
(6:34:51 PM) ArPharazonV:Heh.
(6:34:58 PM) Eonwe Valar: It's one of the ideas Tolkien considered, and even cited Melian in the discussion.
(6:35:09 PM) AriehnV: they dont seem powerful enough for that
(6:35:23 PM) VardaValar1: When one remembers that one generation in was enough to make Luthien mortal, it might not have taken long to degenerate quite a bit.
(6:35:45 PM) Indis: Luthien wasn't born mortal, and she had powers from her mother
(6:36:08 PM) VardaValar1: She married a mortal, and became mortal.
(6:36:24 PM) ArPharazonV:(mortal not meaning "aging" here)
(6:36:52 PM) Indis: it's true that she's not an Ainu
(6:36:57 PM) ArPharazonV:I'm off folks! Please save this part of the discussion as a transcript :)
(6:37:18 PM) VardaValar1: Melian was an Ainu, her offspring was not, but more of an elf.
(6:37:27 PM) VardaValar1: So there is one step down already.
(6:37:30 PM) Indis: something of a super-elf
(6:37:45 PM) ArPharazonV:Namarie!
(6:37:50 PM) Indis: namarie!
(6:37:51 PM) VardaValar1: Very beautiful, strong in song-power.
(6:37:54 PM) VardaValar1: Namarie :-)
(6:38:24 PM) ArPharazonV left the room.
(6:38:31 PM) VardaValar1: But the super-elf if we want to say that, married a mortal and became mortal.
(6:38:40 PM) Indis: by choice
(6:39:13 PM) VardaValar1: So if the orc idea of starting by crossing Maiar out had been used, it might not take long to degenerate, as the stock would not be all that great.
(6:39:31 PM) Indis: and it would be inbred
(6:39:37 PM) VardaValar1: One wonders if those folks would have any hope of choice.
(6:39:42 PM) Indis: small genepool
(6:39:43 PM) AriehnV: aye .. the orcs had no choice i guess , and even if they were Maiar pressed into service of MOrgoth , he is likely to have used fear and threat and maybe temptation to lure them#
(6:40:06 PM) Indis: /1
(6:40:22 PM) VardaValar1: Also true if orcs came from corrupted elves, with the outcrossing to evil men.
(6:40:30 PM) VardaValar1: Mortality comes in again.
(6:41:10 PM) Indis: the orcs were made 'in mockery of the Children'
(6:41:25 PM) VardaValar1: In mockery of the elves, right.
(6:41:31 PM) VardaValar1: Trolls in mockery of the ents.
(6:41:49 PM) Indis: I believe the quote is 'in mockery of the Children,' but I'd have to find it
(6:41:56 PM) VardaValar1: Originality was not something the bad guys handled well.
(6:42:12 PM) AriehnV: the Nazgul in mockery of the dragons?
(6:42:18 PM) AriehnV: or Eagles?#
(6:42:24 PM) VardaValar1: Fell beasts?
(6:42:43 PM) AriehnV: aye their mounts i mean
(6:43:05 PM) Indis: ok, it's mockery of the Elves in Of the Coming of the Elves
(6:43:06 PM) VardaValar1: Dragons did seem to be with Morgoth - can't think of any before that. Need to check.
(6:43:38 PM) Eonwe Valar: Dragons were bred by Morgoth. What stock they were bred from is the question.
(6:44:01 PM) VardaValar1: One hopes they didn't use corrupted eagles in the mix.
(6:44:30 PM) VardaValar1: Back to our friend, Landroval-V. What does he need to rp his character?
(6:44:33 PM) Eonwe Valar: Since wings were a later addition, I doubt it.
(6:44:46 PM) Indis: Melkor was quite the corrupt bioscientist, which fits with Tolkien's suspicion of science
(6:44:49 PM) Eonwe Valar: We've discussed size and we've disccused origin.
(6:44:51 PM) VardaValar1: Ancalagon, the Black Dragon, got his wings somewhere.
(6:45:37 PM) VardaValar1: Landroval himself, however. What relatives, was he one of the Maiar or an intelligent bird?
(6:46:02 PM) VardaValar1: What did he do in the books?
(6:46:04 PM) Eonwe Valar: I don't know if I'd say Tolkien was suspicious of "science." he used the word "sciences" a few times describing Dwarves' knoweldge in some part of HoME.
(6:46:13 PM) Eonwe Valar: *some parts of
(6:47:03 PM) Eonwe Valar: I stand by my opinion on Huan with this one: intelligent animal.
(6:47:06 PM) Indis: I believe he rescued Frodo and Sam
(6:47:18 PM) Indis: together with gwaihir
(6:47:29 PM) VardaValar1: and one other named eagle. : )
(6:47:35 PM) VardaValar1: (Also a server name)
(6:48:08 PM) Eonwe Valar: And aye, he rescued Frodo and Sam, he fought at the Black Gate,.. well "fought" being more like grabbing orcs and letting them fall, but still :}
(6:48:23 PM) Indis: sounds like pretty effective fighting to me
(6:48:50 PM) AriehnV: hmm that was Meneldir
(6:48:57 PM) Indis: Meneldor?
(6:49:04 PM) AriehnV: Menldor it is aye
(6:49:04 PM) Eonwe Valar: Meneldur as I recall.
(6:49:19 PM) AriehnV: hehe ok that ll be it ^^ me and names
(6:49:50 PM) Eonwe Valar: Nope, seems it was Meneldor. Meneldur was the fifth king of Numenor.
(6:50:12 PM) Indis: Meneldor was one of the Eagles who helped at the fight at the Black Gate ..
(6:50:15 PM) Eonwe Valar: One letter changes alot :}
(6:50:38 PM) Indis: italics were in the quote I picked up from Google
(6:51:06 PM) VardaValar1: There is an unnamed eagle who brought tidings to Gondor.
(6:51:08 PM) Indis: it was also the name of the live server during closed beta
(6:51:13 PM) Eonwe Valar: I just grabbed the Complete Guide to Middle-Earth :}
(6:51:24 PM) Eonwe Valar: *grabbed my
(6:51:55 PM) VardaValar1: This eagle tells Minas Tirith of the fall of Sauron and that their King will come back to them.
(6:52:08 PM) VardaValar1: and the Tree renewed.
(6:52:23 PM) VardaValar1: "The Steward and the King" RotK
(6:52:54 PM) VardaValar1: "he bore tidings beyond hope from the Lords of the West"
(6:53:16 PM) Indis: that definitely sounds like one of the great eagles
(6:53:57 PM) VardaValar1: Yes, it says "there came a great Eagle flying"
(6:54:14 PM) AriehnV: i remember
(6:54:38 PM) VardaValar1: As I've just been reminded, don't forget to check on the forum rp and see if we want to add anything.
(6:55:26 PM) VardaValar1: I had forgotten that reference, caught me by surprise whilst page flipping, one more reason to use the books. : )
(6:56:39 PM) VardaValar1: An interesting bit about the eagles going to Frodo and Sam is
(6:57:00 PM) VardaValar1: that they rode a wild wind.
(6:57:10 PM) VardaValar1: cold blasting gale.
(6:57:26 PM) VardaValar1: It drove back the darkness and the ruin of clouds.
(6:57:47 PM) VardaValar1: With that mess out of the way, Gwaihir could spot them.
(6:58:04 PM) VardaValar1: Wind, of course, belongs to Manwe.
(6:58:37 PM) VardaValar1: Every time we hear of wind in the story being mentioned strongly, it behooves us to pay attention.
(6:58:48 PM) VardaValar1: As when it blows away such smoky figures as Saruman's and Sauron's.
(6:59:45 PM) VardaValar1: Ash had still been falling from the volcano.
(7:00:12 PM) VardaValar1: Gwaihir's very name, Windlord, reminds us of the wind.
(7:00:42 PM) VardaValar1: Gwaihir is Landroval's brother.
(7:01:48 PM) VardaValar1: Gwaihir is "greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the descendents of old Thorondor..."
(7:02:07 PM) VardaValar1: Landroval was surely no slouch with Gwaihir for a brother. : )
(7:02:36 PM) VardaValar1: It wasn't just three eagles out there.
(7:03:14 PM) VardaValar1: Behind those two, "in long swift lines came all their vassals from the northern mountains, speeding in a gathering wind."
(7:03:20 PM) VardaValar1: *on
(7:03:58 PM) VardaValar1: "Straight down upon the Nazgul they bore, stooping suddenly out of the high airs, and the rush of their wide wings as they passed over was like a gale."
(7:04:31 PM) VardaValar1: The Nazgul left then, but because they were called away by Sauron.
(7:04:48 PM) VardaValar1: "The Field of Cormallen" RotK
(7:05:53 PM) VardaValar1: Does anyone remember the wind blowing away Sauron's last appearance?
(7:06:11 PM) Eonwe Valar: Aye.
(7:06:52 PM) VardaValar1: " against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky.
(7:07:26 PM) VardaValar1: "Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast, threatening hand,
(7:07:28 PM) Indis: yes, I remember. Much more dramatic than Saruman's end
(7:08:11 PM) VardaValar1: 'terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell."
(7:10:44 PM) VardaValar1: After that, Aragorn had to deal with the confused forces of Sauron, but Gandalf called Gwaihir and asked him to bring his brother Landroval, and another of their folk who was most swift.
(7:11:02 PM) VardaValar1: Meneldor was the one chosen by the eagles for his speed.
(7:11:16 PM) VardaValar1: also mentioned as young.
(7:11:49 PM) VardaValar1: Do we want to look at the Hobbit or are you all pretty well ready to leave? : )
(7:12:39 PM) AriehnV: i ve got the hobbit down here i dont mind#
(7:12:50 PM) VardaValar1: You're still awake! yay!
(7:13:09 PM) AriehnV: hehe aye i ve been checking those passages in LotR
(7:13:12 PM) VardaValar1: The eagles' story is told a bit out of order, as Bilbo learned it out of order.
(7:13:26 PM) VardaValar1: Easy side-tracking there!
(7:14:25 PM) VardaValar1: In the H, "The Return Journey", the Eagles had been suspiciously watching the mustering of the goblins, something that even the mountains could not completely hide.
(7:14:51 PM) AriehnV: I remember though from the Hobbit that the Eagles were described as a proud and almost ferocious people , even a bit arrogant , but not malevolent
(7:15:15 PM) VardaValar1: They gathered in great numbers , under the Eagle of the Misty Mountains.
(7:16:12 PM) VardaValar1: " length, smelling battle from afar they had come speeding down the gale in the nick of time.
(7:17:19 PM) VardaValar1: "They it was who dislodged the goblins from the mountain-slopes, casting them over precipices, or driving them down shrieking and bewildered among their foes.
(7:18:07 PM) VardaValar1: "It was not long before they freed the Lonely Mountain, and elves and men on either side of the valley could come at last to the help of the battle below."
(7:18:32 PM) VardaValar1: "But even with the Eagles they were still outnumbered."
(7:18:39 PM) VardaValar1: That's when Beorn comes.
(7:20:25 PM) VardaValar1: After most of the actual battle is over, some stay to help hunt the fleeing goblins, but most return to their eyries at first light of morning.
(7:20:53 PM) VardaValar1: "Dain has crowned their chief with gold, and sworn friendship with them for ever."
(7:22:14 PM) VardaValar1: Apparently Bilbo had been first to spot the Eagles as they first came and the elves heard his cry and took it up.
(7:22:32 PM) VardaValar1: That looks pretty much like all I see about them.
(7:22:59 PM) Indis: didn't they rescue Gandalf et al. at one point in the Hobbit?
(7:23:17 PM) Eonwe Valar: From the wolves, aye.
(7:23:28 PM) VardaValar1: From the trees with the wolves and goblins all around,
(7:23:36 PM) VardaValar1: and the dwarves and hobbit too.
(7:23:44 PM) VardaValar1: I meant all at the Battle of Five Armies, pardon.
(7:24:31 PM) VardaValar1: "Out of the Frying Pan into the Fire" aye
(7:25:48 PM) AriehnV: "away from the computer into the bed " more likely ;-)
(7:26:14 PM) VardaValar1: Gilraen is here, I can't invite because it says already have a session since she is chatting with me. Eonwe, could you do the honors for Iryenth, please?
(7:26:31 PM) VardaValar1: It's only 6:26 here. : )
(7:26:42 PM) Eonwe Valar: Hmmm.
(7:26:43 PM) AriehnV: hehe 00.26 :-)
(7:26:55 PM) VardaValar1: Poor Arien and Fladrif. : )
(7:27:03 PM) VardaValar1: Flad probably is asleep, aye.
(7:27:15 PM) Eonwe Valar: I thought Gilraen was on my list of Valar Guild members, but apparently she's not..
(7:27:15 PM) Fladrifv: wakes up
(7:27:22 PM) Fladrifv: to see the time is there to sleep
(7:27:31 PM) VardaValar1: Iyrenth is the name she's using now
(7:27:34 PM) VardaValar1: She said:
(7:27:36 PM) VardaValar1: Aiya. Just got back from dinner for Gwai's father's birthday.
(7:27:44 PM) Fladrifv: namarie all
(7:27:54 PM) VardaValar1: Namarie, sorry you missed the eagle chat.
(7:27:54 PM) Indis: namarie, Flad
(7:28:02 PM) AriehnV: Namarie Ent and all Valarites :-)
(7:28:16 PM) AriehnV: ivery enjoyable tonight as usual
(7:28:16 PM) Fladrifv: namarie Arien
(7:28:28 PM) AriehnV left the room.
(7:28:43 PM) VardaValar1: Namarie
(7:28:47 PM) VardaValar1: belatedly
(7:29:10 PM) Eonwe Valar: Is that an "L" or an "i" at the beginning of Iyrenth?
(7:29:46 PM) VardaValar1: i
(7:31:46 PM) Eonwe Valar: Well in theory she's in my list, but I don't see her, so as soon as I can figure out how to get a blank chat invite, I'll send one.
(7:32:23 PM) VardaValar1: Iryenth
(7:32:27 PM) Fladrifv left the room.
(7:32:43 PM) VardaValar1: She's still chatting with me, so she's on.
(7:32:55 PM) VardaValar1: Try a copy paste of the name I just put up?
(7:33:08 PM) Eonwe Valar: I have to find the invite selection first :}
(7:33:36 PM) VardaValar1: Details :-)
(7:33:39 PM) Eonwe Valar: OK, finally found what I was supposed to do in this version.
(7:34:15 PM) Eonwe Valar: It says iryenth is not available.
(7:35:00 PM) VardaValar1: For me it says already in a session with her.
(7:35:24 PM) Eonwe Valar: OK, for reference for those who need/ want to know, a few things about AIM v7.0
(7:36:03 PM) Eonwe Valar: 1.) You can invite a person to the current chatroom by entering their name in a text box that sits right above the list over people in the chatroom.
(7:36:38 PM) Eonwe Valar: It's not very obvious, but that spot to the left of the "add" button is a text box.
(7:36:44 PM) VardaValar1: ah hah! Didn't see that. Been clicking the name or using the menu at the top of the buddy list.
(7:37:13 PM) VardaValar1: I see a tiny word Menu with a down arrow on the right of it.
(7:37:18 PM) Eonwe Valar: 2.) You save a chatroom by right-click the chat and selecting "Save this conversation" from the menu.
(7:37:53 PM) VardaValar1: Add is just to the right of the list of people in the room.
(7:37:59 PM) VardaValar1: on top.
(7:38:00 PM) Eonwe Valar: 3.) In the menu mentioned in 2.), you can also turn off the block form of the chat.
(7:38:57 PM) Eonwe Valar: On my screen, the add button is sitting on top above the list of people, with the "menu" option in the title bar.
(7:39:14 PM) VardaValar1: yay, check marking Block improved the look, aye.
(7:39:25 PM) Eonwe Valar: That is, the Menu option is in the title bar, the "add" button is not.
(7:40:31 PM) Eonwe Valar: Show Im "Bubbles" is the toggle ability in the menu, on and text is in blocks, off and it's like it was in the previous versions.
(7:41:37 PM) VardaValar1: She's trying to come in on her own, seems to show the room, but not going anywhere.
(7:41:41 PM) VardaValar1: Sounds like last week.
(7:42:43 PM) VardaValar1: She's in 6.9, said she didn't like the newest version.
(7:43:13 PM) Eonwe Valar:I had trouble inviting myself in from the old version, but Phar invited me just fine, so I don't know.
(7:47:45 PM) VardaValar1: I'm going to put in some quotes from the Hobbit, "Out of the Frying-pan Into the Fire".
(7:47:55 PM) VardaValar1: After their rescue:
(7:48:03 PM) VardaValar1: "Gandalf, who had often been in the mountains, had once rendered a service to the eagles and healed their lord from an arrow-wound."
(7:48:36 PM) VardaValar1: "The Lord of the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. 'They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew,' he said, 'for they would think we were after their sheep. And at other times they would be right.
(7:48:47 PM) VardaValar1: " No! We are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay our thanks to you, but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plains."
(7:48:55 PM) VardaValar1: The party mentions hunger and the eagles quickly hunt food for them: rabbits, hares, and a small sheep.
(7:49:06 PM) VardaValar1: hmm, a small sheep. ;-)
(7:49:36 PM) Eonwe Valar::}
(7:50:03 PM) VardaValar1: The next chapter "Queer Lodgings" continues with the eagles, including Bilbo riding an eagle's back, who asks him not to pinch.
(7:50:25 PM) VardaValar1: 15 eagles
(7:51:12 PM) VardaValar1: A handy rp item here tells the proper farewell and response between eagles.
(7:51:56 PM) VardaValar1: "Farewell!" they cried, "wherever you fare, till your eyries receive you at the journey's end!"
(7:52:33 PM) VardaValar1: "May the wind under your wings bear you where the sun sails and the moon walks."
(7:53:49 PM) VardaValar1: It says the Lord of the Eagles became in after days the King of All Birds and wore a golden crown, and his fifteen chieftains golden collars (made of the gold that the dwarves gave them)
(7:54:09 PM) VardaValar1: Bilbo saw them again high and far off in the battle of Five Armies.
(7:54:36 PM) VardaValar1: So, would the Lord of the Eagles be Gwaihir?
(7:54:58 PM) Indis: How long did the eagles live?
(7:55:13 PM) Indis: if they were of part ainur kind, might live for a long time
(7:55:28 PM) Indis: and perhaps they were like the Dunedain, long-lived without being ainur
(7:55:52 PM) Eonwe Valar:Thorondor himself seemed to be around for much of the First Age of the Sun.
(7:56:24 PM) Indis: so Gwaihir himself might have appeared in the HObbit
(7:57:47 PM) Eonwe Valar:Gwaihir did.
(7:58:42 PM) Indis: going to be joining a raid in LotRO, so very much in and out (mostly out) during the rest of the meeting, probably
(7:59:13 PM) VardaValar1: Its interesting reading the Hobbit again after reading the other books, knowing things about them that were only in the back of JRRT's mind then, or not thought of at all yet.
(7:59:30 PM) VardaValar1: This is the point at which I planned to stop, now that we looked at the Hobbit.
(7:59:42 PM) VardaValar1: No one seems to be adding more now, so let's call it here.

(7:59:51 PM) VardaValar1: After-meeting.
(8:05:46 PM) VardaValar1: Someone please send a transcript
(8:06:00 PM) VardaValar1: Mine apparently didn't save and Eonwe is having trouble also.
(7:12:07 PM) VardaValar1: ok, found a way to save.
(7:12:28 PM) VardaValar1: Indis and Eomer are hoping to send a copy, so we should have something to work with. : )
(7:12:30 PM) VardaValar1: Namarie!
(7:13:41 PM) Eonwe Valar:Take care and have fun.
(7:13:46 PM) VardaValar1: You too : )
(7:14:12 PM) VardaValar1: Oscars starting soon.
(7:14:16 PM) VardaValar1 left the room.
(7:14:31 PM) karakedi25 left the room.
(7:17:27 PM) IWF519 left the room.
(7:31:40 PM) Eonwe Valar:What a pain this saving problem is.
(7:34:50 PM) arwenv1: j,,
(7:34:52 PM) arwenv1: er
(7:34:54 PM) arwenv1: I can save what I have
(7:34:57 PM) arwenv1: but I entered late
(7:35:33 PM) Eonwe Valar:I'm sure Varda wouldn't mind whatever she can get, just in case.
(7:54:36 PM) Eonwe Valar:OK, think I'll call it here. Take care and have a good night.
(7:54:49 PM) Eonwe Valar left the room.