Valar Guild

June 6, 2010 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by:
Eonwe and Varda.

Attending: (9)
   Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, AriehnV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Finrod-(V)/TH0R0NGIL, fladrifv, Gilraen-(V)/Iryenth, Indis-(V)/ karakedi25, Menelvagor Valar, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    The Hobbit movies and directors.
    Did Feanor still have rights to the Silmarils that he crafted?

Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
3:42 pm
Sarujil has entered the room.
3:45 pm
Eonwe Valar 3:52 pm
Eonwe Valar (3:52:44 PM):
Eonwe Valar (3:53:24 PM):
Afk for a moment.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
3:56 pm
VardaValar1 3:56 pm
VardaValar1 (3:56:39 PM):
Aiya :-)
VardaValar1 (3:56:54 PM):
Eonwe and Ancalagon! :-)
VardaValar1 (3:57:14 PM):
We miss you in LotRO, Anc. :-)
VardaValar1 (3:57:20 PM):
at least, I do. :-)
Sarujil 3:59 pm
Sarujil (3:59:19 PM):
VardaValar1 3:59 pm
VardaValar1 (3:59:27 PM):
Hey :-)
Sarujil 3:59 pm
Sarujil (3:59:28 PM):
i miss it too. gotta get back in some time
VardaValar1 3:59 pm
VardaValar1 (3:59:51 PM):
We had a free weekend recently, and this fall they have a limited free to play.
VardaValar1 (4:01:00 PM):
People with paid play are in much better shape than those folks.
Eonwe Valar 4:01 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:01:44 PM):
Eonwe Valar (4:01:45 PM):
VardaValar1 4:01 pm
VardaValar1 (4:01:52 PM):
Right now we have 6 people playing in LotRO, not counting ones just in the friend channel.
VardaValar1 (4:01:56 PM):
Welcome back, Eonwe. :-)
Eonwe Valar 4:02 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:02:06 PM):
Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar (4:02:40 PM):
Sending out invites.
menelvagorvalar has been invited.
4:03 pm
th0r0ngil has been invited.
4:03 pm
TH0R0NGIL has entered the room.
4:03 pm
Eonwe Valar 4:04 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:04:11 PM):
Heya Finrod :}
Finrod 4:04 pm
Finrod (4:04:40 PM):
iryenth has been invited.
4:04 pm
Finrod 4:04 pm
Finrod (4:04:50 PM):
haven't been in here in a while, how you guys been?
Iryenth has entered the room.
4:04 pm
Eonwe Valar 4:05 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:05:00 PM):
Pretty good, and you?
Finrod 4:05 pm
Finrod (4:05:14 PM):
not bad
alwin0 has been invited.
4:05 pm
Eonwe Valar 4:05 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:05:24 PM):
Good to hear :}
VardaValar1 4:06 pm
VardaValar1 (4:06:20 PM):
Aiya Finrod!
Finrod 4:06 pm
Finrod (4:06:32 PM):
hey Varda
VardaValar1 4:06 pm
VardaValar1 (4:06:36 PM):
Just setting up a potential new member with our friend channel.
Eonwe Valar 4:07 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:07:07 PM):
I'll chair the meeting then :}
VardaValar1 4:07 pm
VardaValar1 (4:07:30 PM):
I just left LotRO, but feel free to run the meeting!
Eonwe Valar 4:07 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:07:43 PM):
Shall we begin?
VardaValar1 4:07 pm
VardaValar1 (4:07:45 PM):
*lazes back*
Eonwe Valar 4:08 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:08:17 PM):
Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar 4:08 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:08:31 PM):
Eonwe Valar (4:08:39 PM):
We're all here. A definite good sign :}
VardaValar1 4:09 pm
VardaValar1 (4:09:01 PM):
Aiya Gilraen : )
fladrifv has entered the room.
4:09 pm
Eonwe Valar 4:09 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:09:19 PM):
Any other member news?
fladrifv 4:09 pm
fladrifv (4:09:23 PM):
Gilraen 4:09 pm
Gilraen (4:09:28 PM):
Aiya all : )
Gilraen (4:09:32 PM):
no news here
Eonwe Valar 4:09 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:09:34 PM):
Heya :}
VardaValar1 4:09 pm
VardaValar1 (4:09:56 PM):
We have several who may be joining the Valar Guild that we're working with now.
VardaValar1 (4:10:18 PM):
That's all I had. :-)
VardaValar1 (4:10:25 PM):
Aiya Fladrif!
Eonwe Valar 4:10 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:10:26 PM):
Congrats and good to hear :}
Eonwe Valar 4:10 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:10:45 PM):
If there's no other member news, on to Web :}
Eonwe Valar (4:10:59 PM):
Go ahead Varda.
VardaValar1 4:11 pm
VardaValar1 (4:11:11 PM):
A new story is up, put online today.
VardaValar1 (4:11:19 PM):
"Refuge" by Branwyn-(T)
VardaValar1 (4:11:42 PM):
Not very long if you folks want to take a peek, but more than a drabble.
VardaValar1 (4:12:21 PM):
Meriadoc-V sent an amusing link, said to watch for the cameo at the end of the YouTube:
VardaValar1 4:13 pm
VardaValar1 (4:13:30 PM):
We could use more stories, articles, and especially art from any members who like to do that sort of thing. : )
Eonwe Valar 4:14 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:14:10 PM):
I've things in the writing process :}
VardaValar1 4:14 pm
VardaValar1 (4:14:10 PM):
I'm done.
Eonwe Valar 4:14 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:14:14 PM):
Thanks :}
VardaValar1 4:14 pm
VardaValar1 (4:14:15 PM):
Eonwe Valar 4:15 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:15:17 PM):
Games Page: Soon, you shall see,.. well, not the *end* of my labours, but certainly the current stopping point:}
VardaValar1 4:15 pm
VardaValar1 (4:15:36 PM):
Should be interesting.
Eonwe Valar 4:16 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:16:07 PM):
I expect to have my current work done within the month, barring other considerations :}
Eonwe Valar (4:16:21 PM):
Maybe sooner if all goes well :}
Eonwe Valar (4:16:52 PM):
I do see the end in sight, though :}
Eonwe Valar (4:17:08 PM):
So, be watching the Games Page! :}
VardaValar1 4:17 pm
VardaValar1 (4:17:12 PM):
The sneak previews boded well.
Eonwe Valar 4:17 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:17:49 PM):
AriehnV has entered the room.
4:18 pm
Eonwe Valar 4:18 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:18:22 PM):
VardaValar1 4:18 pm
VardaValar1 (4:18:23 PM):
Aiya Arien! Just hit Gaming.
AriehnV 4:18 pm
AriehnV (4:18:29 PM):
Aiya :-)
Eonwe Valar 4:18 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:18:37 PM):
Since it has the biggest news, we'll beging here.
Eonwe Valar (4:19:04 PM):
It seems this fall, Lord of the Rings Online will be moving to a Free-to-play model.
VardaValar1 4:19 pm
VardaValar1 (4:19:23 PM):
It's an addition to what we already have.
VardaValar1 (4:19:44 PM):
Free-to-play is pretty limited, but lets a player go to the level 50 cap.
VardaValar1 4:20 pm
VardaValar1 (4:20:17 PM):
Here's a ton of actual info, not just rumors:
Eonwe Valar 4:20 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:20:18 PM):
Current subscribers/lifetime members will become "VIP"s with full access to game content and priority in login queues, among other things.
Eonwe Valar 4:21 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:21:12 PM):
Aye, most of the stuff you'll want to know should be connected to that link.
VardaValar1 4:21 pm
VardaValar1 (4:21:18 PM):
Priority log-in made me wince. I'd rather it be whoever showed up first in line.
VardaValar1 (4:22:02 PM):
Otherwise it's pretty reasonable.
Eonwe Valar 4:22 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:22:33 PM):
It makes some sense they'd want to reward those who keep an active subscription after it goes free-to-play.
VardaValar1 4:22 pm
VardaValar1 (4:22:41 PM):
Eonwe Valar 4:23 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:23:24 PM):
Any other LotRO news you'd like to report, Varda?
VardaValar1 4:24 pm
VardaValar1 (4:24:15 PM):
The gang has been pretty active, both gaming and crafting. Seems as if more folks are showing up.
VardaValar1 (4:24:26 PM):
Not sure why, just, they are. :-)
Eonwe Valar 4:24 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:24:34 PM):
Summer is starting... :}
VardaValar1 4:24 pm
VardaValar1 (4:24:55 PM):
Indis has a new battery and is back to the internet, from Egypt.
Eonwe Valar 4:25 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:25:01 PM):
Some age groups have a freer schedule about now :}
VardaValar1 4:25 pm
VardaValar1 (4:25:11 PM):
That helps!
Eonwe Valar 4:27 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:27:24 PM):
Eonwe Valar (4:27:57 PM):
Blizzcon tickets are sold out, so I hope those of you trying to go got yours.
Eonwe Valar (4:28:11 PM):
And if you did, a blurb about it on the Games Page would be nice *cough* :}
VardaValar1 4:28 pm
VardaValar1 (4:28:35 PM):
Is that in California?
Eonwe Valar 4:28 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:28:48 PM):
Information on a new battleground coming in Cataclysm:Twin Peaks, has been unveiled.
Eonwe Valar (4:28:53 PM):
Aye, it'll be in California.
Eonwe Valar 4:29 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:29:46 PM):
To make sure my above statement is clear, Twin Peaks is the name of the Battleground.
Eonwe Valar (4:30:36 PM):
As for Blizzcon, if you haev DirectTV, you can watch it as a pay-per-view event.
Eonwe Valar (4:31:11 PM):
Not the same as being there, but... :}
Eonwe Valar (4:31:45 PM):
Eonwe Valar 4:32 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:32:52 PM):
I popped in a couple of times this week, did a couple of heroic dailies, and finally got my second piece of T10. Had I been doing the daily this entire time since 3.3 launched instead of working on the Games Page, I'd probably be looking at 4 pieces :}
Eonwe Valar (4:33:37 PM):
The usual suspects were also on, Bilbo, Elwing, Eowyn :}
VardaValar1 4:34 pm
VardaValar1 (4:34:11 PM):
Sauron, Fangorn, myself, Schlep, Bofur, and Nod were also on.
Eonwe Valar 4:34 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:34:53 PM):
D'oh, also meant to mention Bofur and Nob. Didn't catch you or Fangorn on.
AriehnV 4:35 pm
AriehnV (4:35:24 PM):
sounds intriguing this Twin Peaks
Eonwe Valar 4:35 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:35:33 PM):
Thanks for adding to the list, Varda :}
Eonwe Valar (4:36:17 PM):
In addition, I will be doing cleaning on the Guild bank this week, so if you see something you can use in there, get it now.
AriehnV 4:36 pm
AriehnV (4:36:52 PM):
New Roumours been added as to when Cata might be launched .. according to PC gamer at the beginning of winter (although speculations hint towards October for conference for a launch)
AriehnV 4:37 pm
AriehnV (4:37:12 PM):
but nought official just as yet
Eonwe Valar 4:37 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:37:45 PM):
I never trust guesses of release dates until Blizzard makes them official :}
VardaValar1 4:38 pm
VardaValar1 (4:38:20 PM):
Speculating is part of the game, right? ;-)
Eonwe Valar 4:38 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:38:27 PM):
Eonwe Valar (4:38:34 PM):
er, that should be a link, ignore it.
Eonwe Valar (4:38:42 PM):
VardaValar1 4:39 pm
VardaValar1 (4:39:04 PM):
Bad link, bad.
Eonwe Valar 4:39 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:39:16 PM):
It got caught up in a link I had copy/pasted that shoved its styling onto that text.
Eonwe Valar (4:39:44 PM):
Uldaman: I popped in for a little bit here, but didn't do much.
VardaValar1 has left the room.
4:39 pm
Eonwe Valar 4:40 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:40:16 PM):
Anyone play anything besides WoW and LotRO?
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
4:40 pm
VardaValar1 4:40 pm
VardaValar1 (4:40:34 PM):
ooops. Wrong button. : )
Eonwe Valar 4:40 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:40:42 PM):
Welcome back :}
Eonwe Valar 4:41 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:41:31 PM):
Any other gaming news before we move on to Tolkien then?
Eonwe Valar (4:41:47 PM):
Feel free to whisper me Tolkien topics :}
Finrod 4:42 pm
Finrod (4:42:10 PM):
I still play D2 sometimes
Finrod (4:42:10 PM):
VardaValar1 4:42 pm
VardaValar1 (4:42:14 PM):
O cool!
Eonwe Valar 4:42 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:42:20 PM):
Cool :}
Finrod 4:42 pm
Finrod (4:42:28 PM):
am right now actually, first time in a couple years
AriehnV 4:43 pm
AriehnV (4:43:00 PM):
Well i tried to get into the free trial of StarTrek online that was with the PC gamer magazine , but the magazine has failed to provide an authenticication coad for those free trials and they seem to have serious log in trouble
AriehnV (4:43:11 PM):
just watching the forum
VardaValar1 4:43 pm
VardaValar1 (4:43:29 PM):
karakedi25 has entered the room.
4:43 pm
VardaValar1 4:43 pm
VardaValar1 (4:43:55 PM):
Aiya Indis :-)
karakedi25 4:43 pm
karakedi25 (4:43:59 PM):
AriehnV 4:44 pm
AriehnV (4:44:04 PM):
but if they manage to sort this bungle up out i ll let you know my impressions :-)
AriehnV (4:44:12 PM):
aiya indis :-)
Eonwe Valar 4:44 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:44:42 PM):
Heya Indis, and good luck Arien :}
Eonwe Valar (4:45:16 PM):
Every now and then I still play the ME mod, but as it only works for LoD v1.10, my copy of D2 is a bit behind the times :}
Eonwe Valar 4:46 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:46:13 PM):
Ok, let's go to Tolkien :}
Eonwe Valar (4:46:20 PM):
Varda, you had some news here as well?
VardaValar1 4:47 pm
VardaValar1 (4:47:13 PM):
As you've all probably heard, Guillermo del Toro was set to direct The Hobbit, both movies.
VardaValar1 (4:47:57 PM):
They had most everything set up to go, but MGM which is the studio working with New Line, would not greenlight it for a go because they were going bankrupt. So
VardaValar1 (4:48:12 PM):
instead of asking del Toro to work 3 years, they wanted 6.
VardaValar1 4:48 pm
VardaValar1 (4:48:32 PM):
He had other contracts and couldn't do that, and had to bow out of being director.
VardaValar1 (4:49:00 PM):
He intends to continue helping with the screenplay and other things, but can't direct.
VardaValar1 (4:49:23 PM):
PJ has a similar problem of already being under contracts for other movies. But
VardaValar1 (4:49:46 PM):
if he has to, he plans to try to find a way out of them and direct the Hobbit if necessary.
VardaValar1 (4:50:07 PM):
This is his statement on the
VardaValar1 4:51 pm
VardaValar1 (4:51:35 PM):
I'm done.
Eonwe Valar 4:51 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:51:44 PM):
Thanks Varda.
Eonwe Valar (4:51:57 PM):
A shame to here that. Maybe they should hire you to direct? :}
Eonwe Valar (4:52:08 PM):
here = hear
VardaValar1 4:52 pm
VardaValar1 (4:52:31 PM):
rofl - I'd rather see an expert do that.
Eonwe Valar 4:52 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:52:35 PM):
Eonwe Valar (4:53:24 PM):
OK, if no one else has a Tolkien topic, you get mine :}
VardaValar1 4:54 pm
VardaValar1 (4:54:09 PM):
O, and Indis is in Egypt right now and should be asleep. : )
Eonwe Valar 4:54 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:54:21 PM):
Eonwe Valar (4:54:45 PM):
You mean chatting Tolkien isn't rest enough? :}
Eonwe Valar (4:55:13 PM):
Ok, here we go.
karakedi25 4:55 pm
karakedi25 (4:55:30 PM):
but she's not
karakedi25 (4:56:06 PM):
(asleep that is)
AriehnV 4:56 pm
AriehnV (4:56:30 PM):
but in Egypt
Eonwe Valar 4:56 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:56:31 PM):
Fëanor. The Simarilli. We are told that by their evil deeds the Sons of Fëanor have lost their right to them. What about Fëanor? They are his creation, the work of his hands, after all. Go :}
VardaValar1 4:58 pm
VardaValar1 (4:58:23 PM):
Since they are hallowed, Feanor is no longer able to touch them. Maybe, if he would ever get over himself he might become able to touch them again.
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
4:59 pm
VardaValar1 4:59 pm
VardaValar1 (4:59:08 PM):
But a right to them? Questionable.
karakedi25 4:59 pm
karakedi25 (4:59:10 PM):
And if he ever gets out of mandos
Menelvagor Valar 4:59 pm
Menelvagor Valar (4:59:18 PM):
karakedi25 4:59 pm
karakedi25 (4:59:25 PM):
Aiya Menel
VardaValar1 4:59 pm
VardaValar1 (4:59:44 PM):
Aiya Menel :-)
Eonwe Valar 4:59 pm
Eonwe Valar (4:59:46 PM):
Heya Menel :}
Eonwe Valar (4:59:55 PM):
Just for you, a repeat of the topic at hand :}
Menelvagor Valar 4:59 pm
Menelvagor Valar (4:59:59 PM):
Seems like I missed what might be an interesting discussion :-)
karakedi25 5:00 pm
karakedi25 (5:00:09 PM):
It just started
Eonwe Valar 5:00 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:00:10 PM):
Fëanor. The Simarilli. We are told that by their evil deeds the Sons of Fëanor have lost their right to them. What about Fëanor? They are his creation, the work of his hands, after all. Go :}
Menelvagor Valar 5:00 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:00:49 PM):
It is not by their evil deeds, but by their very creation that they lost their rights to them.
Menelvagor Valar 5:01 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:01:19 PM):
For the Silmarils were the only things in the entirety of Arda that hold within them the lights of Telperion and the other Tree ^^
karakedi25 5:01 pm
karakedi25 (5:01:45 PM):
Perhaps it's like publishing a book nowadays: one loses one's rights to the book's revenues but retains authorial credit.
Menelvagor Valar 5:01 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:01:46 PM):
so, not exactly by their creation, but by the destruction of the Two Trees.
Eonwe Valar 5:01 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:01:51 PM):
Eonwë, as I recall, says it's because of their evil deeds :}
Eonwe Valar (5:02:15 PM):
And I don't mean me, I mean me, if you get what I mean :}
Menelvagor Valar 5:02 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:02:26 PM):
hehe :-)
Menelvagor Valar (5:02:36 PM):
Well, you are right and wrong.
VardaValar1 5:02 pm
VardaValar1 (5:02:40 PM):
It's like saying the Valar lost all rights to the light in the Silmarils that they made, because Feanor captured it.
Eonwe Valar 5:03 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:03:00 PM):
Here we go...
Menelvagor Valar 5:03 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:03:09 PM):
Quite true, that's why Eonwë is right.
Menelvagor Valar 5:03 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:03:28 PM):
But the thing is, they lost the sole rights to the Silmarils.
karakedi25 5:03 pm
karakedi25 (5:03:33 PM):
Did Yavanna hold rights to the Two Trees because she made them (with Nienna, of course)?
Menelvagor Valar 5:03 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:03:50 PM):
As all of Valinor gained the right to hold and treasure them after the Trees were destroyed.
Eonwe Valar 5:03 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:03:52 PM):
"But Eonwë answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fëanor formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the Havens."
Menelvagor Valar 5:04 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:04:27 PM):
And that's the quote that corroborates with the right part :-)
karakedi25 5:04 pm
karakedi25 (5:04:54 PM):
So one might say that Feanor similarly lost his right by virtue (?) of the Kinslaying at Alqqualonde.
VardaValar1 5:05 pm
VardaValar1 (5:05:23 PM):
Feanor knew what he was doing at the kinslaying, unlike the ones who came after and thought he'd been attacked.
Eonwe Valar 5:05 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:05:42 PM):
I'm not sure it can be construed that far. Eonwë at woirst does not deal with that issue in his statement, and at best admits that Fëanor would have a claim.
Eonwe Valar (5:06:50 PM):
Fëanor drawing his sword upon Fingolfin with certain intent to do his brother harm did not revoke Fëanor's claim to his work.
Menelvagor Valar 5:06 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:06:55 PM):
the first page of the "Flight of the Noldor" bespeaks what I mean.
Menelvagor Valar (5:07:19 PM):
It's a long part, but I'll try to distill what I mean.
Menelvagor Valar 5:08 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:08:22 PM):
Basically, at some point during what is named "a great concourse at the Ring of Doom", Yavanna says:
Menelvagor Valar (5:09:32 PM):
"Even for those who are mightiest under Ilúvatar there is is some work they may accomplish once, and once only."
Menelvagor Valar (5:09:57 PM):
She then says that it was so with the Light of the Trees, and that had she but a little of that Light, she could revive the Trees.
karakedi25 5:10 pm
karakedi25 (5:10:20 PM):
Again I ask, did Yavanna claim rights to the Two Trees because of that?
Menelvagor Valar 5:10 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:10:31 PM):
I am getting there.
karakedi25 5:10 pm
karakedi25 (5:10:40 PM):
If not, wouldn't Feanor's claim be weakened?
Menelvagor Valar 5:10 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:10:57 PM):
Manwë then asks Feänor to grant Yavanna's Wish.
VardaValar1 5:11 pm
VardaValar1 (5:11:09 PM):
Feanor understood the concept of being able to make something once only and it was important to him. But he didn't care about the rights of others like Yavanna or the Teleri who had done the same.
Menelvagor Valar 5:11 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:11:19 PM):
and the quote that will answer your question Indis:
VardaValar1 5:11 pm
VardaValar1 (5:11:24 PM):
He burned the white ships, knowingly.
Menelvagor Valar 5:12 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:12:26 PM):
"Then Tulkas cried: 'Speak, O Noldo, yea or nay! But who shall deny Yavanna? And came not the light of the Silmarils from her work in the beginning'?"
Menelvagor Valar 5:14 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:14:01 PM):
So, in essence, the greater right of their creation is not attested by Manwë, nor by Aulë (who in the next sentence says that it is a greater thing asked than what one might imagine)...
Menelvagor Valar (5:14:31 PM):
However, it does show that their creation could not have come to pass without Yavanna's work, thereby granting minor rights to Yavanna.
Menelvagor Valar (5:14:49 PM):
However, Vala though she may be, the greater right still stood.
Menelvagor Valar (5:15:11 PM):
That's my view on it at least.
VardaValar1 5:15 pm
VardaValar1 (5:15:13 PM):
Thus the Valar asked for the favor, and did not force it.
karakedi25 5:16 pm
karakedi25 (5:16:10 PM):
And Yavanna didn't assert her claim.
Menelvagor Valar 5:16 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:16:10 PM):
Aye, for they were not of the same heart as Melkor, forcing their will upon others.
Eonwe Valar 5:16 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:16:18 PM):
I'm not quite sure I'd agree, or at least not put it that way, Menel. Give me a moment and I'll try to put it into words...
karakedi25 5:16 pm
karakedi25 (5:16:35 PM):
And there we come to the heart of Feanor's evil: he sought to force his will on others.
Menelvagor Valar 5:16 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:16:50 PM):
Not exactly.
VardaValar1 5:17 pm
VardaValar1 (5:17:19 PM):
Free will, one of the main themes.
Eonwe Valar 5:19 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:19:18 PM):
When someone creates something, they are free to do with it as they wish. If they give someone else that which they have made, do they then have the right to take it back, should they decide it could be better used? I would say no.
Menelvagor Valar 5:19 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:19:39 PM):
His heart was driven by rage and hatred towards Melkor, which in turn drove him to think thoughts unbecoming of the Eldar, one of which such thought he shows at the very meeting I just recounted.
VardaValar1 5:19 pm
VardaValar1 (5:19:45 PM):
If something is given, it is given. The end.
VardaValar1 (5:20:39 PM):
But one may ask for aid in time of need.
Eonwe Valar 5:20 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:20:40 PM):
When Yavanna created the Trees, she was free to do with them as she wished, but she made them for the lighting of Aman, and wished them to be available to all.
AriehnV 5:20 pm
AriehnV (5:20:51 PM):
The Valar asked the stones back to heal their land if i remember right , or was it to save the saplings .. i cant remember , but the silmaril were needed for a vital task
karakedi25 5:21 pm
karakedi25 (5:21:04 PM):
Save the trees
AriehnV 5:21 pm
AriehnV (5:21:21 PM):
Save the trees aye that was it
VardaValar1 5:21 pm
VardaValar1 (5:21:22 PM):
Save the trees to give the light that was needed by all.
Menelvagor Valar 5:22 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:22:28 PM):
Feanor: "It seemed to him he was beset in a ring of enemies, and the words of Melkor returned to him, saying that the Silmarils were not safe if the Valar would possess them. 'And is he not Vala as are they,' said his thought, 'and does he not understand their hearts? Yea, a thief shall reveal thieves!'"
Eonwe Valar 5:22 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:22:28 PM):
Fëanor made use of a freely available resource to create something of his own. He in turn was free to do with that as he wished. It's certainly no wonder that Aulë had great sympathy for him in such a decision as unmaking that which Fëanor had made.
Menelvagor Valar 5:22 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:22:59 PM):
Aye Eonwë :-)
Menelvagor Valar 5:23 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:23:49 PM):
For Aulë himself had great trouble destroying what he had wrought, and that was exactly why Ilúvatar took pity on him, and allowed his creation to exist.
karakedi25 5:23 pm
karakedi25 (5:23:58 PM):
At least as interesting is his sanity. The quote above that begins "It seemed to him..." sounds like paranoid thinking of the first order.
Eonwe Valar 5:24 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:24:00 PM):
His rights to do with the Silmaril as he wished were not in question at any point by anyone except Tulkas. Otherwise, all of Middle-Earth should be wary, lest Yavanna decide to repossess their wood houses :}
Menelvagor Valar 5:24 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:24:40 PM):
I agree.
VardaValar1 5:25 pm
VardaValar1 (5:25:10 PM):
Sauron-(Valar) says owning and worthiness are different.
Menelvagor Valar 5:25 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:25:12 PM):
to both Eonwë and Indis :-)
Menelvagor Valar (5:25:46 PM):
ah, my favourite evil person... and he is quite right to :-)
Menelvagor Valar 5:25 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:25:57 PM):
evil has its ways to be right I suppose *grin*
Menelvagor Valar (5:26:03 PM):
VardaValar1 5:26 pm
VardaValar1 (5:26:05 PM):
Menelvagor Valar 5:26 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:26:07 PM):
gah... too*
Eonwe Valar 5:26 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:26:13 PM):
If the ability to touch something decided one's rights over said item, we must all question the ownership of our stones when the burners are on. Someone with tougher figures could come in and lay claim to it.
Eonwe Valar (5:26:18 PM):
*tougher fingers
AriehnV 5:26 pm
AriehnV (5:26:18 PM):
ah well lets take that to start ... ,
Eonwe Valar 5:26 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:26:31 PM):
stones = stoves, bah.
Menelvagor Valar 5:26 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:26:37 PM):
I figured :-)
karakedi25 5:26 pm
karakedi25 (5:26:57 PM):
Feanor's right to the silmaril's at the time of the death of the Two Trees was not in question. The issue is more his right after evil deeds comparable to those of his children in response to the oath he imposed on them.
Menelvagor Valar 5:27 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:27:09 PM):
Aye, but that is exactly why Manwë and the other Valar would not lay claim to them, even if the creation was preceded by another creation.
AriehnV 5:27 pm
AriehnV (5:27:19 PM):
Feanor used something that was vital and holy for both Valar and Elves ..., now what is holy exactly? Pure , Set apart , worthy of adoration#
Eonwe Valar 5:27 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:27:21 PM):
As for Fëanor, I don't think he cared so much what others did, unless it in some way affected him. That is when he wished to have his way.
AriehnV 5:27 pm
AriehnV (5:27:51 PM):
A wielder of such an item or items containing such a substance should shure be holy too and fulfill these qualities?
Menelvagor Valar 5:27 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:27:57 PM):
For the creation itself, apart from being made possible by another creation, takes precedence, for in that second creation (the Silmarils) lay different techniques used, that were but from the creator only.
AriehnV 5:28 pm
AriehnV (5:28:35 PM):
with the kinslaying Feanor forestalled any such if he ever had them
karakedi25 5:28 pm
karakedi25 (5:28:40 PM):
*silmarils minus apostrophe--gah!
VardaValar1 5:28 pm
VardaValar1 (5:28:41 PM):
Theoretically Feanor could repent and become worthy again, but his ego would never allow that.
Menelvagor Valar 5:29 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:29:14 PM):
Menelvagor Valar (5:29:43 PM):
and his sons would not recant their oaths, not even until the very end, not even Maedhros, who was the gentlest among them.
karakedi25 5:30 pm
karakedi25 (5:30:13 PM):
In modern terms, if a mad scientist invents (or genetically alters) a virus that will cause a devastating plague, where do his rights and those of society to protect his rights fall?
Eonwe Valar 5:30 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:30:47 PM):
He has the right to keep his virus to himself :}
VardaValar1 5:31 pm
VardaValar1 (5:31:34 PM):
The oath was the plague really, not the silmarils.
Menelvagor Valar 5:32 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:32:01 PM):
I think a more apt comparison would be if someone invented a new form of electricity, based on what we currently know, and then suddenly all electricity, but for that new form to fail.
Eonwe Valar 5:32 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:32:03 PM):
The scenario with Fëanor is different though. He is not forcing some evil tool of dominion ( i.e. The Ring) upon anyone. He simply wishes to keep his possessiosn to himself.
karakedi25 5:32 pm
karakedi25 (5:32:06 PM):
similarly, Feanor might have held the ME equivalent of copyright/patent on the silmarils, but when he appeared to be a danger to the world, might he not be constrained?
Menelvagor Valar 5:32 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:32:25 PM):
In modern terms, the greater good would be imposed onto the creator, and his rights stripped from him.
karakedi25 5:32 pm
karakedi25 (5:32:40 PM):
In the name of his rights he *did* force his children to take an oath that ended up damning them
Menelvagor Valar 5:33 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:33:04 PM):
it was still their sons choice, forced or not.
Eonwe Valar 5:33 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:33:18 PM):
They took the oath freely the first time. He forced them to swear it thrice more on his deathbed.
Menelvagor Valar 5:33 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:33:47 PM):
his sons' choice*
Menelvagor Valar 5:35 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:35:13 PM):
Not to deviate from the topic, but out of sheer interest, whose topic was this? :-)
karakedi25 5:35 pm
karakedi25 (5:35:15 PM):
it was the choice of the kings to who became the nazgul to accept the rings of power, but to whom is the ultimate evil attributed? Not to them, but to Sauron.
Eonwe Valar 5:35 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:35:19 PM):
This was mine :}
Menelvagor Valar 5:35 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:35:43 PM):
No, Indis.
Menelvagor Valar (5:36:04 PM):
The evil of the creation, and the evil that was done onto the Kings of Men were bestowed upon Sauron.
Eonwe Valar 5:36 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:36:04 PM):
When they became Nazgul, they became bound to his will, unable to act against it in any significant way, if in any way at all.
Menelvagor Valar 5:36 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:36:18 PM):
VardaValar1 has left the room.
5:36 pm
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
5:36 pm
Menelvagor Valar 5:36 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:36:27 PM):
They lost their free will entirely.
Eonwe Valar 5:36 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:36:32 PM):
Not all of the Men given the Rings were evil as I recall.
karakedi25 5:37 pm
karakedi25 (5:37:00 PM):
effectively, by conscience and fear of the void in the event of a broken oath, Feanor's children became bound to his will, in a lesser way
Eonwe Valar 5:37 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:37:06 PM):
They became Nazgul faster or slower based on their own intentions and their native will, paraphrased roughly.
Menelvagor Valar 5:37 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:37:28 PM):
Aye Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar 5:37 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:37:50 PM):
Oaths limiting one's free will is not in question :}
Menelvagor Valar 5:38 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:38:13 PM):
Oaths do not limit free will in my opinion.
Eonwe Valar 5:38 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:38:14 PM):
Limiting after a fashion, I suppose I should rather say.
karakedi25 5:38 pm
karakedi25 (5:38:14 PM):
Perhaps what Feanor did was worse, in that his children became bound to his will--even posthumously--because of what was mostly good in them (keeping of promises, honor)
Menelvagor Valar 5:38 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:38:54 PM):
they did not honor Feänor by continuing his legacy tbh.
karakedi25 5:39 pm
karakedi25 (5:39:11 PM):
which legacy?
Menelvagor Valar 5:39 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:39:14 PM):
they lost honor by stealing the Silmarils after the War of Wrath.
karakedi25 5:39 pm
karakedi25 (5:39:37 PM):
they lost honor by setting the ends above the means
Menelvagor Valar 5:39 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:39:44 PM):
Eonwe Valar 5:39 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:39:48 PM):
There was still some talk of how they could get out of the oath, and I think there would've been leeway, if they sought it.
Menelvagor Valar 5:40 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:40:18 PM):
thus the limiting to their free will they imposed upon themselves by setting the oath above "what is right".
Menelvagor Valar (5:40:40 PM):
they knowingly imposed such limitations upon their own thoughts.
Eonwe Valar 5:40 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:40:49 PM):
"If Manwë and Varda themselves deny fulfilment of an oath to which we named them in witness, is it not made void?"
VardaValar1 5:41 pm
VardaValar1 (5:41:19 PM):
But Eru was also part of that Oath.
Menelvagor Valar 5:41 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:41:33 PM):
Yes, but not necessarily in the eyes of the oath-taker.
Eonwe Valar 5:41 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:41:40 PM):
They also swore by Iluvatar, but if his emissaries in Ea would deny fulfilment, would that also not make their oath void?
Eonwe Valar (5:42:21 PM):
Manwë knows best the mind of Eru of all the Valar. I've argued this before, but if Manwë says it's void, I think it's safe to say Eru says it's void :}
Menelvagor Valar 5:42 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:42:29 PM):
Unfortunately, I must also be advocate of the devil here.
karakedi25 5:42 pm
karakedi25 (5:42:43 PM):
Not unless they applied to Eru (which Manwe could do) for a release from the oath for Feanor's sons
Menelvagor Valar 5:43 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:43:11 PM):
It could be construed, in some way that Morgoth's dark seeds, which he planted in Feänor might have affected him in ways more than he thought (and I think we would agree on this as much).
karakedi25 5:43 pm
karakedi25 (5:43:26 PM):
What is surprising is that they had not done this as a contingency measure before the War of Wrath
Menelvagor Valar 5:43 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:43:43 PM):
but it is also possible that Feänor himself sowed Morgoth's seeds in his sons.
Eonwe Valar 5:43 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:43:44 PM):
Done what?
karakedi25 5:43 pm
karakedi25 (5:43:55 PM):
as in, assuming we win, can we abrogate the oath to get Feanor's children out of the impossible bind they're in?
Eonwe Valar 5:44 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:44:08 PM):
Who's to say they didn't?
Menelvagor Valar 5:44 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:44:17 PM):
Menelvagor Valar (5:44:23 PM):
I think it was nullified.
Menelvagor Valar (5:44:29 PM):
let me try and look it up :-)
Eonwe Valar 5:44 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:44:48 PM):
Once the story turns to the Noldor in Endor, we really don't know what the Valar were working on in Aman, barring some brief scenes.
Eonwe Valar (5:45:12 PM):
Would the Sons of Fëanor faced some sort of penance? I have no doubt.
karakedi25 5:45 pm
karakedi25 (5:45:31 PM):
But not necessarily an unbearable one
Eonwe Valar 5:45 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:45:40 PM):
I think a way out of their more condemning oath would've been made.
Eonwe Valar 5:46 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:46:17 PM):
Assuming they were repentant.
karakedi25 5:46 pm
karakedi25 (5:46:32 PM):
very likely, but wouldn't your namesake have been empowered to offer it, had they addressed the matter before launching troops?
Eonwe Valar 5:47 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:47:19 PM):
Not necessarily.
Eonwe Valar (5:48:15 PM):
A general pardon may have been issued to the Noldor, with Eonwë given orders that the key players in the exile were to be brought before the Valar.
Eonwe Valar 5:48 pm
Eonwe Valar (5:48:44 PM):
*the Noldor = the general Noldoring populace
Eonwe Valar (5:48:49 PM):
Eonwe Valar (5:49:41 PM):
Particularly those who did participate in the Kinslaying at Alqualonde. Since the first crime was committed on Aman, it might be deemed to bring them there for justice.
Menelvagor Valar 5:50 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:50:28 PM):
well, I just read about the part just after the Kinslaying :-)
Menelvagor Valar 5:51 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:51:22 PM):
As far as I can tell...
Menelvagor Valar (5:51:54 PM):
The Noldor were given one last chance to forsake their oaths, and their quest by Mandos himself, upon the northernmost borders of Valinor.
Menelvagor Valar 5:54 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:54:48 PM):
Only Finarfin and many of his people then forsook the Noldorin march and returned to Valinor and received pardon.
Menelvagor Valar (5:55:36 PM):
Of course, it is not recounted what would have happened if any of the kinslayers would have returned, for Finarfin and his people were in the reargard of the Noldorin host and only came upon Alqualondë after it was conquered.
VardaValar1 5:56 pm
VardaValar1 (5:56:48 PM):
The ones who were not guiltless were afraid to return.
Menelvagor Valar 5:57 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:57:44 PM):
some were, yes.
Menelvagor Valar 5:59 pm
Menelvagor Valar (5:59:04 PM):
others, like Turgon and Fingon were "bold and fiery of heart, and loath to abandon any task they set their hands to, until the bitter end, if bitter it must be".
VardaValar1 5:59 pm
VardaValar1 (5:59:43 PM):
and others, like Galadriel, wanted to make a kingdom of their own in the new lands.
Menelvagor Valar 6:00 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:00:16 PM):
Aye, but that is not recounted in this particular passage.
Menelvagor Valar 6:02 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:02:32 PM):
Galadriel is recounted in the part where Feanor tries to persuade the Noldorin to join him.
Eonwe Valar 6:03 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:03:32 PM):
Eonwe Valar (6:04:18 PM):
The discussion is dying down. Shall we wrap up for the evening with final comments?
Eonwe Valar 6:05 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:05:30 PM):
I would say we can carry into After-meeting for those interested, but rarely is it anyone takes that up :}
Menelvagor Valar 6:05 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:05:50 PM):
it says: "but Galadriel the only woman of the Noldor to stan that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the the words of Fëanor had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm of her own will."
Eonwe Valar 6:06 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:06:42 PM):
Interesting that Galadriel was the only one, given the Aredhel seemed to have a fairly fiery attitude as well.
Menelvagor Valar 6:06 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:06:56 PM):
generally after-meeting means making dinner, getting to games, bed, etcetera :-)
Menelvagor Valar (6:07:25 PM):
true :-)
Menelvagor Valar 6:07 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:07:33 PM):
but she was not set to rule a realm :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:08 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:08:02 PM):
Galadriel didn't get ger own realm right away either :}
Eonwe Valar (6:08:13 PM):
ger = her
Menelvagor Valar 6:08 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:08:25 PM):
true, and of course, we do not know Aredhel's thoughts that day :-D
Eonwe Valar 6:08 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:08:39 PM):
VardaValar1 6:09 pm
VardaValar1 (6:09:13 PM):
Galadriel wanted to rule Lorien and pulled herself back from being called a queen, just a lady. Part of trying to make it back to Valinor and still have what she wanted.
karakedi25 6:09 pm
karakedi25 (6:09:34 PM):
Galadriel wanted the opportunity to fulfil her capacities, more than revenge, I suspect
Menelvagor Valar 6:09 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:09:44 PM):
she didn't want revenge.
Menelvagor Valar (6:09:59 PM):
it shows by the fact that she didn't swear any oaths.
Menelvagor Valar (6:10:08 PM):
or at least it was not foremost on her mind.
karakedi25 6:10 pm
karakedi25 (6:10:14 PM):
no, and I'm not sure I'd describe her as 'fiery,' either
karakedi25 (6:10:32 PM):
she seems rather cool and collected, even calculating, to me
Menelvagor Valar 6:10 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:10:36 PM):
Except for maybe at the Mirror of Galadriel *wink*
Menelvagor Valar (6:11:30 PM):
She was crafty, as all Noldor are.
VardaValar1 6:11 pm
VardaValar1 (6:11:53 PM):
Sounds like a play on words. :-)
Menelvagor Valar 6:12 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:12:13 PM):
and Tolkien clearly differentiates the craftiness of words and skill when he describes the Noldor and Fëanor in particular.
Menelvagor Valar (6:12:50 PM):
Aye Varda :-)
Menelvagor Valar (6:13:42 PM):
Tolkien describes the Noldor as being more drawn to Aulë and by lack of remembering stuff I have just read "making stuff".
Menelvagor Valar 6:14 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:14:24 PM):
their language also changed much, for they ever yearned to name new things, or name things better in both what they made or imagined.
Menelvagor Valar (6:14:55 PM):
and of Fëanor it is said: "He was mightiest in word and skill".
Menelvagor Valar (6:15:30 PM):
Which I suppose might pertain to all Elves, but most likely to the Noldor, as that particular section was of the Noldor.
Eonwe Valar 6:15 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:15:34 PM):
Now that would be an interesting "fight" to see, one for the ages: Fëanor debating Saruman :}
Menelvagor Valar 6:15 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:15:46 PM):
Fëanor would win hands down :-)
Finrod 6:15 pm
Finrod (6:15:55 PM):
in a debate?
AriehnV 6:15 pm
AriehnV (6:15:56 PM):
Well, , my dear fellow valarites , as fascinating as this discussion is , i am afraod , my capability to read and write suffers from inform of more and more frequent
Finrod 6:15 pm
Finrod (6:15:58 PM):
i dont think so
VardaValar1 6:16 pm
VardaValar1 (6:16:10 PM):
Good night, Arien. : )
AriehnV 6:16 pm
AriehnV (6:16:11 PM):
my god i d like to see that :-D
Eonwe Valar 6:16 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:16:18 PM):
Saruman is a Maia in origin. It would be a tough call I think.
Eonwe Valar 6:16 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:16:24 PM):
Sleep well Arien :}
karakedi25 6:16 pm
karakedi25 (6:16:27 PM):
Goodnight, Arien
Menelvagor Valar 6:16 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:16:29 PM):
Sleep well Arien. even in the summer, the sun must set at some point :-)
Finrod 6:16 pm
Finrod (6:16:34 PM):
in a battle of words, few could defeat saruman...
VardaValar1 6:16 pm
VardaValar1 (6:16:36 PM):
Saruman had the gift of Voice. Interesting.
VardaValar1 (6:16:52 PM):
Feanor had immense charisma.
Finrod 6:16 pm
Finrod (6:16:56 PM):
AriehnV 6:17 pm
AriehnV (6:17:01 PM):
NN :-) i shall have the pleasure of reading this on the news board :-) Namarie :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
6:17 pm
Eonwe Valar 6:17 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:17:06 PM):
Fëanor *did* fight *multiple* Balrogs though, so I think he could handle himself in a debate with Saruman.
karakedi25 6:17 pm
karakedi25 (6:17:07 PM):
But Feanor had great linguistic gifts of his own, in addition to charisma
Finrod 6:17 pm
Finrod (6:17:15 PM):
but 1 on 1 he would still have been under the wizard's spell
Menelvagor Valar 6:17 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:17:21 PM):
True, but I clearly recall it being said that Fëanor was so fiery of spirit that it (nearly) matched one of the Maiar.
Finrod 6:17 pm
Finrod (6:17:24 PM):
yes Eonwe, but that was a fight
Menelvagor Valar 6:17 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:17:37 PM):
And towards the end, Saruman was much diminished in power.
Eonwe Valar 6:17 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:17:43 PM):
It shows the strength of his spirit.
Menelvagor Valar 6:17 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:17:50 PM):
and his will.
Eonwe Valar 6:17 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:17:53 PM):
Finrod 6:18 pm
Finrod (6:18:02 PM):
certainly Menel, but that is still only nearly, and Saruman had a greater gift of words than a normal maiar
Menelvagor Valar 6:18 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:18:32 PM):
in fact, if Saruman had debated with Fëanor in Valinor, while he was still in "Maia form", I do not doubt Saruman would win.
Eonwe Valar 6:18 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:18:37 PM):
And the debate would be in the bag for Fëanor if Saruman made even one slip. Fëanor pretty quickly pierced through all of Morgoth's veiled words the moment Morgoth brought up the Silmarilli.
Finrod 6:18 pm
Finrod (6:18:45 PM):
Menelvagor Valar 6:18 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:18:52 PM):
but Saruman the Wizard... that's a different matter entirely.
Finrod 6:19 pm
Finrod (6:19:08 PM):
but that is because he had an extreme weakness for the Silmarils, and was overly protective of them
Finrod (6:19:21 PM):
Saruman would have been too smart to mention them by name
Eonwe Valar 6:19 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:19:27 PM):
And Morgoth made a mistake.
Finrod 6:19 pm
Finrod (6:19:36 PM):
Finrod (6:19:49 PM):
morgoth was more a warrior than a debator
Eonwe Valar 6:19 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:19:52 PM):
Mentioning at all would be enough, but it wouldn't necessarily have to be *just* the simarilli.
Eonwe Valar (6:20:16 PM):
Other matters touched Fëanor deeply besides the SIlmarilli.
Finrod 6:20 pm
Finrod (6:20:40 PM):
Eonwe Valar 6:21 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:21:08 PM):
Fëanor held out on linguistic debates, arguing for certain pronunciations, just because they were the preference of his mother.
Menelvagor Valar 6:21 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:21:52 PM):
Eonwe Valar 6:21 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:21:57 PM):
I can't create those characters in AIM, sorry :}  You'll just have to settle for my somewhat vague description :}
Menelvagor Valar 6:22 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:22:09 PM):
I just found another passage that might cause an upheaval of the original topic :-)
VardaValar1 6:22 pm
VardaValar1 (6:22:44 PM):
You're on a roll tonight, Menel. : )
Eonwe Valar 6:22 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:22:55 PM):
Saruman would have to walk the line between berating and agrandizing Fëanor carefully, but if anyone is up to it, he would be :}
Menelvagor Valar 6:23 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:23:25 PM):
"For Fëanor began to love the Silmarils with a greedy love, and grudged the sight of them to all save to his father and his seven sons; he seldom now remembered that the light within them was his own."
VardaValar1 6:24 pm
VardaValar1 (6:24:22 PM):
"was not his own"
Menelvagor Valar 6:24 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:24:44 PM):
was not his own, aye.
Menelvagor Valar (6:25:05 PM):
sorry, must have forgotten to add so simple a word with so heavy a meaning in my haste to complete the quote :-D
Eonwe Valar 6:25 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:25:22 PM):
Still, it was a freely given resource. In the end though, all rights to Being, property, and existence belong to Eru :}
Eonwe Valar (6:26:20 PM):
Oh, speaking of Eru,...
Eonwe Valar (6:26:39 PM):
and of "holy" things :}
Menelvagor Valar 6:26 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:26:47 PM):
hehe :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:26 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:26:52 PM):
I saw somethign the other night that *has* to be sacrilege :}
Eonwe Valar (6:27:11 PM):
An Undead Warlock named Iluvatar.
Menelvagor Valar 6:27 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:27:38 PM):
And why would a Forsaken Warlock be sacrilege?
Eonwe Valar 6:28 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:28:01 PM):
Because it's Undead, and it's a Warlock, and you can't get any further from "holy" than that :}
Menelvagor Valar 6:28 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:28:06 PM):
for even the most evil may yet have their place in Iluvatar's designs. (hints at Gollem)
Menelvagor Valar (6:28:23 PM):
Except that the Undead aren't exactly evil.
Menelvagor Valar 6:28 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:28:54 PM):
they may not be living, but they do not serve the scourge, nor seek to advance their own agenda's beyond anything what the other living races might do.
Menelvagor Valar (6:29:07 PM):
Eonwe Valar 6:29 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:29:27 PM):
I could turn this into a Warcraft discussion, but I'd rather not in light of that we still have a Tolkien discussion :} I just thought I'd share that.
Menelvagor Valar 6:29 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:29:39 PM):
In fact, I would call a Black Dragon named Iluvatar more of a sacrilege ^^
Menelvagor Valar (6:29:47 PM):
sorry :-)
Menelvagor Valar (6:29:57 PM):
just had to pick up on it because you started it :-D
VardaValar1 6:30 pm
VardaValar1 (6:30:06 PM):
Thanks, must've made you jump to see that. :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:30 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:30:13 PM):
If you have time in After-meeting, we can get into Warcraft :}
VardaValar1 6:30 pm
VardaValar1 (6:30:18 PM):
And you a paladin. :-)
Menelvagor Valar 6:30 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:30:26 PM):
I always have time :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:30 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:30:48 PM):
Menelvagor Valar 6:31 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:31:07 PM):
the question is rather if I my interest has been piqued enough to make time, or I'm not too tired :-)
Menelvagor Valar (6:31:31 PM):
and considering your perfect choice of topic for tonight, I am wide, wide awake :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:31 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:31:37 PM):
VardaValar1 6:32 pm
VardaValar1 (6:32:14 PM):
Agreed! Great topic. :-)
Menelvagor Valar 6:32 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:32:26 PM):
One of my favourites!
Menelvagor Valar (6:32:56 PM):
but that should be easy to guess, considering the first name I took when joining the Guild :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:32 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:32:58 PM):
I'll be sure to stir up some more trouble with a similar topic next week then :}
Eonwe Valar 6:33 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:33:15 PM):
I have one in mind :}
Eonwe Valar (6:33:31 PM):
*jost down next week's topic*
Eonwe Valar (6:33:35 PM):
Menelvagor Valar 6:33 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:33:46 PM):
I'm not sure whether I can make next week :-(
Menelvagor Valar (6:33:56 PM):
Might have a long board game planned next week.
Eonwe Valar 6:34 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:34:32 PM):
Might have to link this and next week's Tolkien discussion to the Forum then.
Eonwe Valar (6:34:46 PM):
Let trouble get stirred up there :}
Menelvagor Valar 6:34 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:34:52 PM):
cool :-)
Menelvagor Valar 6:35 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:35:18 PM):
just remind me via pm when you put it up on the forum :-P
Eonwe Valar 6:35 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:35:25 PM):
Menelvagor Valar 6:35 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:35:49 PM):
Eonwë, I am sure you remember the name I first picked when joining? :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:35 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:35:56 PM):
I can put this week's topic up now, and then add a link later when Varda gets the news up :}
Eonwe Valar (6:36:08 PM):
Fëanor as I recall :}
Menelvagor Valar 6:36 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:36:10 PM):
Good idea :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:36 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:36:14 PM):
Which then became Turgon :}
Menelvagor Valar 6:36 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:36:28 PM):
became Maedhros before Turgon :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:36 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:36:58 PM):
Writing some of these name lines is like writing a genealogy, hehe...
Menelvagor Valar 6:37 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:37:18 PM):
Well, I seem to still remember why I picked those names :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:37 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:37:34 PM):
.Eonwe fka Valacirca fka Aragorn isn't so bad, but then we get like...
VardaValar1 6:37 pm
VardaValar1 (6:37:54 PM):
Menelvagor Valar 6:38 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:38:02 PM):
Eonwe Valar 6:38 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:38:02 PM):
Menelvagor fka Turgon fka Maedhros fka Feanor, and suddenly you're expecting to see a bunch of "begat"s :}
VardaValar1 6:38 pm
VardaValar1 (6:38:21 PM):
Beats my gender change. : )
VardaValar1 (6:38:36 PM):
Faramir > Varda
Eonwe Valar 6:38 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:38:40 PM):
Eonwe Valar (6:38:48 PM):
And a massive power-up too :}
Menelvagor Valar 6:38 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:38:53 PM):
all that, plus aka Erentiris, Elenvanya, Menelmacare, Elenhaya, Erentiris, Ondolinde, Anarore, and, Morningsong.
Eonwe Valar 6:38 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:38:57 PM):
I don't think they make fire-flowers in that size :}
Menelvagor Valar 6:39 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:39:13 PM):
and then some others :-)
Menelvagor Valar 6:39 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:39:41 PM):
hahaha :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:39 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:39:42 PM):
(Super Mario Bros Reference for those perhaps too young to remember it :})
Menelvagor Valar 6:40 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:40:16 PM):
collect 3 fire flowers and 3 green toadstools in a row and you get a super duper sized fire throwing mario :-)
Menelvagor Valar (6:40:37 PM):
sorry, red toadstools :-)
Eonwe Valar 6:40 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:40:43 PM):
VardaValar1 6:40 pm
VardaValar1 (6:40:45 PM):
Menelvagor Valar 6:41 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:41:03 PM):
great game if it wasn't so terribly slow and bad on graphics :-P
Eonwe Valar 6:41 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:41:23 PM):
I had an Atari 2600 back in the day.
Eonwe Valar 6:41 pm
Eonwe Valar (6:41:50 PM):
One of my aunts had a Collecovision.
Menelvagor Valar 6:41 pm
Menelvagor Valar (6:41:50 PM):
I was still toying around with my model train set those days :-P