Valar Guild

July 11, 2010 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by:
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (10)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, fladrifv, Galdor-(V)/galdorandwe, GwaihirValar, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, Menelvagor Valar, TulkasValar61, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
    Voted to keep meetings in AIM even after LotRO goes free to play.
    Galdor-(V)'s Few Words.
    Link: Born of Hope online movie
    WoW Realid
    Second Life: Fladrif's one year anniversary party.
    Master of Orion
    Menelvagor's topic: How did the Doom of the Children of Húrin affect the Doom of the Noldor? (and possibly vice versa?)

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya to Ar-Pharazon the Golden!
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: OK, that was different..
TulkasValar61 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya Eonwe
TulkasValar61: well Hello good people.
VardaValar1: You got invited as that the being different, Eonwe? : )
VardaValar1: Aiya Tulkas!
Eonwe Valar: I didn't see an invitation, didn't click anything, and was just starting to type in the channel name for my invitation to everyone, and next thing I know, I'm here.
VardaValar1: Aye, we get some surprised folk in here sometimes. :-)
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)
AriehnV: Aiya all :-)
VardaValar1: I wonder if it would even be possible to have a meeting in LotRO. It would be distracting.

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
TulkasValar61: Ventrillo?
VardaValar1: Membership:
AriehnV has left the room.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Ventrilo makes it tough when several want to talk at once, or to scroll back. Or to leave a few minutes and come back. But we could.
VardaValar1: Some of you may not be aware that we now have Ventrilo.
Eonwe Valar: The point of moving out of games was to give everyone a chance to come to meetings whether or not they played a game. Moving back into a game would just be taking a step back.
AriehnV: i think that was my problem when i was on vent .. , too many speaking at the same time
VardaValar1: If all of us are in the same game due to free to play, we could use a game. But would it be too distracting?
TulkasValar61: it is always difficult to make a change, it took me almost 6 months to swithch from battlenet
AriehnV: and i am not used to pressing a button all the time while i speak
VardaValar1: A large number never did switch.
VardaValar1: We never got back up to the average number of 20.
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv: :-(
Eonwe Valar: Just because it's free doesn't mean everyone will go there. Battlenet was free, after all.
fladrifv: :-(
VardaValar1: Right this minute, the only one of us here who doesn't have LotRO is Phar, and that could be fixed this fall. Flad said he'd probably use it mainly to chat.
fladrifv: :-(
VardaValar1: Aiya Flad!
VardaValar1: You made it, why the long face, ent-buddy?
fladrifv: we lost...
ArPharazonV: Because the Netherlands lost.
fladrifv: sorry for the interuption varda
TulkasValar61: There was a game???
VardaValar1: Grats for getting so far!
VardaValar1: That is fine. I asked. :-)
ArPharazonV: world championship football/soccer finals
fladrifv: *sits quietly in a corner and becomes treeish*
VardaValar1: Advantage of typing is we can see what we're all saying without trying to work through noise.
ArPharazonV: Oh yes. That's why I hate voicechat.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that too.
ArPharazonV: But I don't have a microphone anyway, so it doesn't matter for me
VardaValar1: I've been in raids where anyone not the the raid leader who was talking got in trouble.
VardaValar1: hah! We can keep Phar quiet! Would that be a reason? ;-)
VardaValar1: Talking is great for raids, maybe not so great for our meetings.
VardaValar1: Also, Arien would have to figure out my Texas accent.
AriehnV: and as far as battlenet is concerned ... we had to change for playing wow
ArPharazonV: There'll be a new battlenet though, which is supposed to include WoW.
AriehnV: but yeah i see the trouble for meetings with voicechat
Eonwe Valar: We changed from because we had people who were in other games and we wanted them to still be able to come to meetings.
VardaValar1: Most of the current guild is not in Battlenet, but in LotRO.
Eonwe Valar: As I understand it, some of them refused to use, some of them lost their CDs.
ArPharazonV: So what's keeping the LotRO-ers from joining us in AIM?
VardaValar1: True, some lost their CD's or they were broken.
VardaValar1: Same problem as the DAoC bunch, don't see a reason.
fladrifv: or why not move into lotro in the autumn
VardaValar1: Most here are LotRO players - only Flad and Phar are not.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: We were considering it, Flad.
VardaValar1: Aiya Gwaihir. :-)
ArPharazonV: this free to play thing... do you still need to purchase the game?
GwaihirValar: hello
Eonwe Valar: Again, just because LotRO is free doesn't mean everyone will automatically have it ( was free) and it doesn't mean everyone will *always* have access to it.
VardaValar1: Now there's Gwaihir and Gilraen, who don't play LotRO.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
AriehnV: and both are really very important to the meetings i d think its not a good idea
TulkasValar61: I am not a LOTRO player...I am a LOTRO fumbler...there is a sublte difference
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis.
karakedi25: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Fumbler or good at it doesn't matter if you can type. : )
AriehnV: aiya Indis
VardaValar1: AIM is a good place to find each other like the old Battlenet system, so we can switch to the game the other is playing.
GwaihirValar: a lot of games are blocked on cvertain networks so if a person is at university they may not have access to it
Eonwe Valar: The one thing we should have learned is that having a person act as a bridge doesn't work too well, and we can't program one for LotRO or WoW without breaking the ToU, if it's possible at all.
fladrifv: when lotro goes free I willjoin you there varda
VardaValar1: Good point, Gwaihir.
VardaValar1: We'll be glad to see you plant there when you like,, Fladrif!
ArPharazonV: is it just the sub that's free, or the game itself?
Eonwe Valar: Up to level 50 content is free, with certain limitations.
VardaValar1: The first part of the game to level 50 will be free in the fall.
ArPharazonV: both?
VardaValar1: Aye, it has limits.
VardaValar1: Some members refuse to use AIM, but we might be able to interest them in Trillian or Pidgin.
VardaValar1: AIM also allows the Tolkien-onlies to come in, if they should so wish.
TulkasValar61: I do not think we should bend to the will of the few who dont want aim...
VardaValar1: Trillian or Pidgin lets them get around using AIM.
TulkasValar61: I dont like aim myself but it is on my puter strictly for this
VardaValar1: Those programs let you come to AIM without actually being in it.
VardaValar1: Me too, Tulkas.
fladrifv: pidgin is perfect
fladrifv: *pidgin fan*
GwaihirValar: whereas I prefer aim to most of the alternatives lol
VardaValar1: AIM is on my computer strictly for meetings. This would also be true if I used Pidgin or Trillian.
ArPharazonV: I simply tend to stick with what I know. AIM works fine for me, and the version I use is great for transcripts. I've seen no need to even try Pidgin or Trillian.
Eonwe Valar: I've used AIM for class-related groups, but mostly I use it for guild stuff.
Eonwe Valar: It uses less memory than LotRO as well, meaning even computers that can't do modern gaming can join us at the meeting.
VardaValar1: Good point.
fladrifv: what chat client do ppl use else then aim?
fladrifv: its not that common in europe for example
VardaValar1: Trying to invite galdorvalar
TulkasValar61: I use my cell phone ;-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
AriehnV: yahoo chat, and a lot seem to use whatsit .. this ICQ
AriehnV: but i dont like ICQ at all lots of indecent spammers on there
VardaValar1: MSN, Google Chat, others are used.
AriehnV: aye msn as well
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, I used ICQ way back in the day before I joined the Valar Guild. I'm guessing whatever account I had is now dead :}
TulkasValar61: facebook
GwaihirValar: willing to bet my icq is long dead too... but the number was easy enough to remember that it stilol sticks in my head
GwaihirValar: despite it being nearly... god 10 years?
GwaihirValar: lol
VardaValar1: He didn't download AIM, just started using it. I didn't know that was possible. But it didn't support the chat so he's trying again.
GwaihirValar: he's just using the java aim off the website
VardaValar1: So do we generally prefer to keep meetings to AIM, even with the free LotRO coming in fall? Reasons against it being size, graphics, money, distractions?
GwaihirValar: seems to make sense
Eonwe Valar: Staying with AIM would be my vote.
TulkasValar61: If I had a vote I would vote to stay the same
VardaValar1: You all have a vote. : )
ArPharazonV: My vote is for AIM, but I don't think you expected anything else.
AriehnV: aye is the best solution i think, i vote for aim
VardaValar1: The only reason we were considering it was the free to play in fall, and that we tend to have more members in LotRO at meeting time than in the AIM meeting.
VardaValar1: Today is an exception.
Eonwe Valar: There's nothing stopping members in any game from using AIM or its alternatives, or our Forum, except themselves.
VardaValar1: They see no advantage to coming to AIM.
AriehnV: the trouble is u always have to alt tab between game and chat
Eonwe Valar: The problem is, Varda, if we end up at a point where we have more members in a game other than LotRO, will we move the meetings there instead?
VardaValar1: I would like to see people use the Tolkien threads on the forum. Those are never out of date, despite some people's comments to the contrary.
AriehnV: but if thats demanded too much for something that is close to their heart ... weel u know what i want to say
VardaValar1: If it's free to play, as we did in Diablo for so long?
VardaValar1: At least LotRO has Middle-earth.
TulkasValar61: But to play the devil's advocate...asking a bunch of people in an aim meeting whether we want to stop using aim is somewhat akin to asking a room full of beer drinkers if they want to switch to cola's
VardaValar1: Many of those here also play LotRO.
VardaValar1: I am not for using *any* game simply because it's too distracting.
Eonwe Valar: That was in bnet (slightly broader than just Diablo, ewven if only by one game at the time, hehe), and that's where we first formed. We moved out of bnet to accomodate multiple games.
VardaValar1: We would not hold a good Tolkien chat in that environment.
VardaValar1: Bnet in Diablo is where we started, and that really was a chat program outside the gaming area that we all had in common.
ArPharazonV: Could we save transcripts in AIM?
ArPharazonV: *in LotRO?
Eonwe Valar: I wouldn't advocate moving *back* to bnet with Starcraft 2, either.
VardaValar1: We can save them in LotRO, yes.
GwaihirValar: I agree Eo
ArPharazonV: in an easily used format?
VardaValar1: The main interest for us with LotRO is that we are a Tolkien fan club and that is set in Middle-earth, it has the ability to save transcripts.
VardaValar1: Better than our current new AIM, yes. Phar, your transcript is the only clean one due to having an old version.
VardaValar1: The new ones all translate into messy tables.
ArPharazonV: Ah. Hm.
VardaValar1: They look normal until trying to copy paste.
VardaValar1: StarCraft and other Bnet games have nothing to do with being a Tolkien fan club, really.
karakedi25: I would like to have meetings in LotRO for convenience and because it *is* Middle Earth, but there are some telling arguments against it, as described above.
VardaValar1: It is not all that convenient to quite a few of us.
VardaValar1: It requires a very good computer to run.
GwaihirValar: it requires having the software on your computer to run... and whether free or not, mmos are not small
karakedi25: I meant convenience for me, of course. The need for a good computer is one of the telling arguments against it.
Eonwe Valar: And a broadband connection.
VardaValar1: Aye, it's very large.
AriehnV: there would be a compromise option actually which might accomodate both parties
TulkasValar61: I would not be able to come to meetings when I am at I like to do when I can
Eonwe Valar: WoW at least can function to some degree on dial-up.
AriehnV: if i may suggest?
VardaValar1: AIM seems to be the best compromise between all groups at this time.
VardaValar1: Just jump in, Arien. : )
AriehnV: we could alternate .. one sunday here on aim and one sunday in Lotro
VardaValar1: AIM is free and doesn't take a lot of space, can use dial-up.
Eonwe Valar: Alternating would be too much of a pain.
VardaValar1: I fear we would have an even worse fall-out of people, as they come to one place by habit.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: One thing I make an attempt at is relaying to LotRO.
TulkasValar61: that woould gt confusing..
VardaValar1: I got one comment there, and that was surprise from Maedhros. He says to stick with AIM also, that he's not coming because he had to leave anyway.
karakedi25: And the alternate week wouldn't be available to the people without the game /system.
AriehnV: dont see no trouble but i would log in Lotro then one sunday :-P , why make a mountain out of a molehill?
TulkasValar61: hmmm too many vowels in one word and not enough in the other
VardaValar1: Aye, no need to make a big deal out of it. We can just stay in AIM.
VardaValar1: That would save money and space for those considering buying it just for a chat program.
ArPharazonV: I thought you said it was free?
VardaValar1: Free to play. No monthly.
ArPharazonV: But the actual game still needs to be purchased?
VardaValar1: I don't know about the initial download. Does anyone else know?
ArPharazonV: Allllright, I think I'll stick to AIM then in any case.
karakedi25: that would be free as well
Eonwe Valar: Computer upgrades and broadband routers would not be free, hehe.
VardaValar1: I think they let you just pick it up digitally.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe.
AriehnV: depends actually .. if it s like D& D online , it might be a free download
VardaValar1: I think they will make the initial game a free download.
Eonwe Valar: It'll be a free download. They want to hook you, so they have to set the bait.
TulkasValar61: Well are we going to see ORCs sporting adidas logos, where are they going to generate their income?
VardaValar1: lol - aye Eonwe
karakedi25: It already is, for the free 10-day trial
VardaValar1: Aye, Indis.
VardaValar1: It's a big download even for the 10-day.
AriehnV: and D & D online is a child of Turbine as well so it might be a hint
karakedi25: You will probably have to register a credit card, as you do now, for purchases in the LotRO Store.
VardaValar1: The same person who ran the set-up for D&D free to play and the store has been put in charge of LotRO.
VardaValar1: The purchases can also be made from things picked up in-game.
karakedi25: I'm guessing they will be very similar, if not alike.
AriehnV: aye#
TulkasValar61: There is a LoTRO store? or will there be?
Eonwe Valar: There will be, aye.
karakedi25: Yes, but I suspect they'll want a credit card.
VardaValar1: Ok, we're going to have a vote from you folks here in AIM. yes, there's a LotRO store coming.
karakedi25: Yes, there will be.
Eonwe Valar: Those with subscriptiosn will get a monthly amount of Turbine Points.
Eonwe Valar: *subscriptions.
VardaValar1: You can pick up stuff in the store by money or by things from in-game play.
Eonwe Valar: Those of us who are life-time members will get that as well without paying a cent.
VardaValar1: Aye.
karakedi25: and will keep whatever they have that others will have to spend Turbine Points (TP) one
karakedi25: *on
VardaValar1: We're digressing now.
TulkasValar61: Those of us who pay monthly will continue to pay monthly
VardaValar1: I would like everyone who wants to stick with AIM for meetings to type Aye.
AriehnV: aye
TulkasValar61: aye
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
ArPharazonV: Aye
VardaValar1: (I was abstaining til last.)
karakedi25: I don't exactly 'want' to, but I think it's the right thing if LotRO is the only alternative.
TulkasValar61: one more aye and we have a majority
VardaValar1: What alternative did you have in mind, Indis?
fladrifv: im ok with what ever client :-)
fladrifv: I will follow anyway
GwaihirValar: aye
VardaValar1: AIM includes the Pidgin and Trillian versions of AIM use.
VardaValar1: This is a vote between AIM and its versions vs free to play LotRO for meetings.
karakedi25: so aye (reluctantly)
VardaValar1: Indis, do you really want them to go to LotRO?
VardaValar1: Do you feel we could handle all the distractions and have a true meeting?
karakedi25: I would love to go to LotRO, but I see its great disadvantages
VardaValar1: Would you like to help relay AIM meeting info to LotRO?
TulkasValar61: perhaps in time we can revisit the issue
karakedi25: I don't mind doing it.
karakedi25: I'm also aware that if the suggestion were to go to WoW, I'd resist it.
Eonwe Valar: I'd resist it no matter what game it is. The reasons we moved to AIM in the first place were pretty specific.
AriehnV: so what point is there discussing that further right now? the matter has been decided
VardaValar1: AIM is decided for now.
VardaValar1: I would like to see people use the Forum more, from all groups, adding to the Tolkien threads.
VardaValar1: No one in LotRO responded to the vote request.
karakedi25: TBH, I don't think most of them think of themselves as members of a guild that goes beyond a lotro kinship.
Eonwe Valar: Which is a shame in and of itself.
karakedi25: It is, but that's my impression.
VardaValar1: Do you feel you are in one beyond the game, Indis?
VardaValar1: I'm not seeing activity in any direction in the guild on the Tolkien Site. This is the slowest it's been in years.
karakedi25: yes, because I come to meetings
karakedi25: and have made some contributions to the site, plus the roleplay
VardaValar1: This is a Tolkien Fan Club and Gamers group, not just a Gamers group.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Most emphatically, hehe :}
VardaValar1: So you have shown how a person can be in the guild in more than one way. : )
AriehnV: and i ;-) and Pharzi who has contributed to the guildsite and the roleplay as well
AriehnV: and everyone else who did that i forgot
fladrifv: for my part I would like live role plays :-)
ArPharazonV: Heh. But not much performance game-wise, when it comes to this Guild.
AriehnV: ah well .. guess we're beyond that now unless we make common efforts so we stand a chance :-)
AriehnV: but i know ur very busy and have preferences in gameplay which are not necessarily mine
AriehnV: but for all our differences we have the common interest and chat in here which llinks us
VardaValar1: You do some pretty cool ent rp live, Flad. : )
VardaValar1: Aye, Arien.
AriehnV: hmm could there be still ents in Mirkwood or only Huorns?
AriehnV: wondering if Flad would give an appearance hehe
AriehnV: sorry diverting
VardaValar1: Tulkas? You're running GS during the meeting? I'm afraid my tank is not able to do that much multi-tasking.
karakedi25: harder for a tank to be distracted
karakedi25: hunter can go on autoattack and pew-pew away from time to time
VardaValar1: If my dps is shooting indiscriminately, I may boot him. : )
VardaValar1: Ok, going to run through the rest of the business meeting rather quickly.

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: We have a very cool link to a web movie, pre-LotR, sent in by Eomer, called Born of Hope.
VardaValar1: Give yourself a little time to watch this. It's not quick and it's high quality.
VardaValar1 has left the room.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Welcome back :}
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Thanks :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya!
VardaValar1: I seem to have hit something wrong when trying to pick up the link.
VardaValar1: Aiya Menelvagor. : )
VardaValar1: Did the link get across for the movie, Born of Hope?
ArPharazonV: Aiyata Varda :-) And Aiya Menel
Menelvagor Valar: it's a sad, sad day.
VardaValar1: You Netherlanders got a very long way though!

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Eonwe had some general WoW news. Go ahead Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
ArPharazonV: Would you rather have lost to Germany instead, Menel? ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: we would have won then :-)
ArPharazonV: sure we would!
Menelvagor Valar: we would've.
Eonwe Valar: This week, Blizzard both announced and recanted their decision to integrate their RealID feature into the Fora.
GwaihirValar: thank goodness
Menelvagor Valar: a shame.
ArPharazonV: ah, they took it back?
Eonwe Valar: I, aye obviously Gwaihir, are quite pleased about the latter decision.
VardaValar1: That was fast. Did they say why?
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: Can't say I blame 'em. They got a lot of criticism.
GwaihirValar: there was a 3500 page thread on their forums complaining
GwaihirValar: in 3 days
Eonwe Valar: Because enough people voiced their concerns, I'd say.
GwaihirValar: and another 1200 on the bnet forums
Eonwe Valar: For those who don't know,...
Menelvagor Valar: over 10.000 forum users protesting.
GwaihirValar: I think 4700 pages of complaints is enough to change their mind ;-)
VardaValar1: Impressive.
ArPharazonV: I heard about a blizzard employee who posted his real name to show that he endorsed the decision.. and within minutes people had tracked down his address and phone number
ArPharazonV: makes you think, doesn't it?
Eonwe Valar: RealID (in the games) is a system that shows your real first and last name to anyone on your friends list, and anyone on your friends' friends lists.
VardaValar1: And he didn't expect that?
GwaihirValar: not at all surprising since they already knew his country and subregion...
VardaValar1: Facebook is bad about that too.
ArPharazonV: He did not, no. Apparently he thought it would be safe.
VardaValar1: Then it was an excellent test.
GwaihirValar: blizz developers names are already known anyways though they're already in the gamefiles....
GwaihirValar: the people may have already HAD that info
GwaihirValar: years ago
Eonwe Valar: The wanted to include it in their forua such that anyone who posted would be forced to display their real first and last name in their forum posts.
ArPharazonV: Well, still.
Menelvagor Valar: not necessarily the forum moderators though.
GwaihirValar: yep their names are all known too, they get credit
Eonwe Valar: *forua = fora
GwaihirValar: every blizzard employee's name is credited in some way
VardaValar1: Did they say why they wanted real names of children posted?
Menelvagor Valar: to be honest, I think it would be a powerful deterrent for people to act like beeping beeps.
GwaihirValar: I think they'll go with a persistent username, which will be much the same
VardaValar1: Cut being anonymous.
Eonwe Valar: In theory, parents would've disabled the child's account from posting on the Forum.
VardaValar1: Like, Gwaihir is a persistent username. : )
GwaihirValar: one that the user chooses the first time they post and cannot change, I mean
VardaValar1: Makes sense.
Eonwe Valar: I don't believe it would've deterred anyone at all, Menel. Alot of people who are jerks are going to be jerks simply because they don't have to look the person in the eye.
Menelvagor Valar: Still, there's nothing from stopping Blizz from sending a flamer or troll a personalized letter they should stop it :-P
ArPharazonV: ..Yes. Like a mean letter is going to impress them.
Eonwe Valar: The only people deterred would've been peoplem like me, who don't want their real name plastered everywhere just because someone else thinks it's a good idea.
VardaValar1: With a warning that they are on the fast track to being banned from the forum.
GwaihirValar: They can do that anyways though, by just sending an e-mail to the bnet account associated with it
VardaValar1: Aye
Menelvagor Valar: well, it's not the diehard idiots that matter anyways.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Blizzard CMs can see the account name already. This wasn't for the CMs.
Menelvagor Valar: it's the wannabe idiots that give the diehards their righteousness and power.
Menelvagor Valar: stop the wannabes, and you stop the diehards.... mostly.
Eonwe Valar: Compromising someone else's security for a false sense of forum cohesiveness was a poor idea in the first place.
Menelvagor Valar: I do agree on that.
AriehnV: hmm so whats going to happen anyway? with those who shared real id in game all ready? and by the way if somebody wants to compromise and account he ll sure find some way
Menelvagor Valar: the reasons may have been wrong, but in my opinion, as much as I dislike the idea, are right.
Eonwe Valar: The RealID in game is still in.
Eonwe Valar: It's just not coming to the Forums.
GwaihirValar: yep
GwaihirValar: because in game isn't mandatory
GwaihirValar: its 100% consented
Eonwe Valar: At least not in the foolish (putting it nicely) manner in which they had intended to bring it.
Menelvagor Valar: except that most people who are going to use that feature have no idea what they are really signing up for.
Menelvagor Valar: on the other hand, it serves them right.
ArPharazonV: There was a bug that allowed an addon to trace your RealID, even if you did not consent to it, I think.
Eonwe Valar: I've heard something about that, Phar.
ArPharazonV: I and some comm-friends disabled RealID in all, using the Parental Controls, so I think we're safe.
Menelvagor Valar: And a belatedly excuse me for my language.
Menelvagor Valar: One is never as safe as one believes to be.
ArPharazonV: Well, relatively safe.
Menelvagor Valar: aye,
ArPharazonV: I'm not using RealID in any way now, nor could I unless I changed it back in PC.
GwaihirValar: I really like the real ID in game, it lets me keep in touch with my brother on another server. Very handy.
Eonwe Valar: I have no intention of making use of RealID.
Menelvagor Valar: but even without the realid, a malevolent would be able to find out exactly who you are, where you live, and everything else you wouldn't want him to know.
Eonwe Valar: I know the character names of real life friends, and I can text/call them if I want to.
ArPharazonV: Oh, probably. But there's always risks involved.
ArPharazonV: The moment you step out your door you get the risk of getting shot through the head or getting hit by a car. Theoretically.
Menelvagor Valar: the internet, in any form, is the biggest security leak in the world.
Eonwe Valar: You can also make decisions to reduce that risk, Phar. Theoretically.
Eonwe Valar: The only winning decision for RealID on the fora was not to play, to paraphrase the movie "Wargames."
Menelvagor Valar: Anyways, I would suggest we get back to the matter at hand, not wild speculation of what may and may not come to pass.
Menelvagor Valar: most of it is a matter of personal opinion regardless.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, the point is that Blizzard recanted, and so some small portion of our privacy is safe for another few hours.
ArPharazonV: And I've already reduced the risk by disabling RealID, Eonwe ;-)
ArPharazonV: But as Menel said, the risk's still there, and will remain so.
Eonwe Valar: In other news, Blizzard has announced some big changes to their Mastery plans.
GwaihirValar: huge.
Eonwe Valar: As well as some major changes to the Talent trees.
ArPharazonV: Gigantic.
Eonwe Valar: For the sake of expediency, I point to the Games Page News for links.
Eonwe Valar:
VardaValar1: So, are we about to have WoW 2 without calling it that?
GwaihirValar: not exactly
Eonwe Valar: The Twilight Highlands has also been previewed. I'll have a link up on the Games Site news as soon as I can.
VardaValar1: Thanks
Eonwe Valar: That *should* be it for general WoW news.
VardaValar1: Thanks, Eonwe. : )
ArPharazonV: Hmm, there's some bits...
VardaValar1: Fladrif has some news too.
VardaValar1: I'd like to let him have the stage for a special thing that recently occurred. : )
ArPharazonV: There's previews on Hyjal and Stonetalon in Cataclysm too, that I've seen on Incgamers.
ArPharazonV: Want me to link them?
Eonwe Valar: Let Fladrif have the floor right now. We can get the links at the end of gaming :}
ArPharazonV: Okidoki.
fladrifv: hoom boom boom
ArPharazonV: It's awake!
fladrifv: yes king of numenor
fladrifv: a tree never sleeps, be on your guards in the forest
fladrifv: specially you
VardaValar1: Never? Well hardly ever. Night...
fladrifv: hehe
fladrifv: we had an interesting event in SL
GwaihirValar: time to go make dinner, was fun talking to everyone. Take care.
VardaValar1: Bon appetit and hi to Gilraen!
fladrifv: namarie gwai
GwaihirValar has left the room.
fladrifv: after being 1 year in sl
fladrifv: there is the common rezzdayparty
fladrifv: it happened I found a twin so we organised it together
fladrifv: theme use your imagination....
fladrifv: seldomly seen so many strainge fantasy creatures in one spot
Menelvagor Valar: SL?
fladrifv: oh sorry
fladrifv: Second Life
Menelvagor Valar: ah :-)
fladrifv: very open world with basically no limitation
fladrifv: s
fladrifv: and the final round of the chess tournament started
VardaValar1: What were a few of the fantasy creatures they built?
fladrifv: dragon trees
fladrifv: elves with tails
fladrifv: one eyed goblins
AriehnV: hmm dragon treez lol sounds intriguing
fladrifv: creatures that do not even exist in a fantasy world
ArPharazonV: elves with tails...
ArPharazonV: a bit like draenei, perhaps?
fladrifv: hard to explain ill find some screenshots
fladrifv: 12 games now to win for the chess championship
VardaValar1: Avatar? :-)
fladrifv: *with that said he walks of stage*
fladrifv: (yes some where navi too)
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Thank you, Flad. A few screenies for the Games page for Eonwe to pick through might be cool.
fladrifv: I will arange that
VardaValar1: Do we have any further business? Comments? Suggestions?
ArPharazonV: Want those links I mentioned?
VardaValar1: Yes, please, and thanks!
AriehnV: hey
AriehnV: cool still here
ArPharazonV: Allright, Cataclysm spoilers, with zone-maps!
ArPharazonV: for Hyjal
ArPharazonV: for Stonetalon
ArPharazonV: bit of a walk through the 2 zones, with a zone-map, descriptions, and screenshots including some characters that will feature
karakedi25: (going afk to feed cats etc.)
ArPharazonV: as well as comparing (in Stonetalon's case) the old and new versions, also mentioning what used to be there
ArPharazonV: So if you're interested, take a look :-)
VardaValar1: Thank you, we most probably will check those out.
VardaValar1: Do we have anything else to mention in business?
Menelvagor Valar: I have one minor thing :-)
VardaValar1: Go ahead.
Menelvagor Valar: Lately, I've taken up on playing MOO 3 (Master of Orion) again, and as it has a multi-player function, if anyone feels up for playing that. feel free to drop me a line :-)
ArPharazonV: ....Moo?
Menelvagor Valar: see brackets :-P
ArPharazonV: yes, but still... moo...
ArPharazonV: *shrugs and wanders off*
Menelvagor Valar: WoW!
Menelvagor Valar: *shrugs and wanders off*
ArPharazonV: yes, that's not a very pretty one either, but we've gotten used to it
ArPharazonV: at least WoW makes fun of moo
karakedi25: back
Menelvagor Valar: Cowabunga!
VardaValar1: We have been to the secret cow level, aye.
ArPharazonV: Thunderbluff is the cow level
VardaValar1: Now taking suggestions for a Tolkien topic.
VardaValar1: Go Taurens!

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Menelvagor has a topic, Go ahead, Menel.
Menelvagor Valar: It's a topic from the Silmarillion, one that has had a major influence in the history of Middle Earth.
VardaValar1: Everyone here is familiar with the Sil, so this topic should be fine.
Menelvagor Valar: The question is: How did the Doom of the Children of Húrin affect the Doom of the Noldor? (and possibly vice versa?)
Menelvagor Valar: Now, we all know that the Noldor re-entered Beleriand before the coming of men, and the first of the wars of the Noldor against Morgoth was backed up by several houses of Men just come out of the East, most notably that of Hador Goldenhead.
Menelvagor Valar: Húrin, grandson of Hador (I think) was, among men, one of the most strongest and most fervent supporters of the Edain.
Menelvagor Valar: Húrin, along with Húor, his brother, covered the retreat of Turgon and the Gondolindrim from the field of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
Menelvagor Valar: His valiant efforts, along with that of his brother and his people earned him the ire of Morgoth, who still thought of Turgon the most feared of his enemies.
Menelvagor Valar: Now, how does this stand with the Doom of the Noldor?
Menelvagor Valar: In his travels, Túrin came upon Doriath, but eventually (skipping a lot of story here) fled, due to a misconception about Dárion the Minstrel (I think that was his name, could be wrong).
Eonwe Valar: Turin's connection to Nargothrond's fall is quite stark.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: Hurin's stand prevented the discovery at that time of the secret home of Turgon's people, Gondolin.
VardaValar1: The eventual tricking of Hurin into revealing Gondolin does not change that he allowed it a long time of peace first.
Menelvagor Valar: Also, part of the Doom of Húrin's children was the fall of Dór Lomin, which made his nephew, Túor, raised by Elves in hidden caves eventually turn up in Nevrast, where he encountered Ulmo.
Menelvagor Valar: And still, all Húrin revealed of Gondolin was a general location.
VardaValar1: True.
Menelvagor Valar: it was not until Maeglin's treachery that the true location was revealed.
VardaValar1: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: But still, it was only near the end of the Noldorin campaign against Morgoth that Húrin was involved.
karakedi25: Of course through Tuor came Earendil, who brought about the ultimate pardon of the Noldor after the War of Wrath.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye!
Menelvagor Valar: But the pardon of the Noldor was not their doom though.
Menelvagor Valar: If I recall correctly, the Doom of the Noldor was basically that in the end, though their intentions were good, their actions would eventually result in woe.
VardaValar1: True. That was how the Valar got around the problem of the Doom.
VardaValar1: That even happened to Finrod.
Menelvagor Valar: Finrod Felagund, master of Nargothrond.
Menelvagor Valar: Who traveled with Túrin and was captured by Sauron if I recall correctly.
karakedi25: Earendil affected the Doom by being the instrument of its end.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, though it was not a direct result of the Doom of the Children of Húrin.
VardaValar1: Finrod lost the song battle with Sauron when Sauron brought up the Kinslaying, for one thing. And lost his kingdom and life.
Menelvagor Valar: Yet he gave his life to save Túrin, if memory serves.
Eonwe Valar: Beren
ArPharazonV: Beren, I think?
Menelvagor Valar: memory might be a bit erroneous :-P
VardaValar1: Aye, Beren.
Menelvagor Valar: Right.
Menelvagor Valar: Still, it only means that the only direct connection between the dooms of Húrin and the Noldor was in Nargothrond.
Menelvagor Valar: But it still reveals a weakness of Morgoth, in which the Noldor would be able to delay their Doom in my opinion.
ArPharazonV: I'm trying to remember if there was any link between the doom of Hurin and the fall of Doriath (which there was, I think.. Hurin brought the treasure?) but then again Doriath wasn't Noldor.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, Pharzie.
VardaValar1: The original question was how the Doom of the Children of Hurin interacted with the Doom of the Noldor. So maybe one question is who were the Children of Hurin?
karakedi25: Hurin and Turin spread joy wherever they went.
VardaValar1: We kind of got into a discussion of Hurin.
VardaValar1: lol Indis
ArPharazonV: Hurin and Turin did more to the benefit of Morgoth than any Orc ;-)
Eonwe Valar: They also did more to the hurt of Morgoth than most Elves, hehe.
Menelvagor Valar: Túrin was always loved and revered when he first arrived and stayed for a while, but in the end, Túring brought more woe upon the Eldar than the kinslaying did (well, as much at least).
karakedi25: In terms of interaction, the Doom of Hurin and his children would probably not have existed if it were not for the Noldor and their Doom. After all, allies of the Noldor were also affected by the wrong turnings and betrayals.
Eonwe Valar: True.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: but the original question was of the other way :-)
Eonwe Valar: To an extent at least. I think Hurin would've wound up pretty high on Morgoth's hit list, curse or no.
Menelvagor Valar: I agree.
AriehnV: My Excuses ladies and gents .. i was wondering why i got yawning so much until my rays fell upon the branch of the Ent
AriehnV: or rather the shadow that it cast
VardaValar1: Tis late for you. Or early, depending on how one looks at it.
VardaValar1: Rest well!
Menelvagor Valar: late, only just past 12, GMT :-D
fladrifv: rest well arien
Eonwe Valar: One does not stay up late. Nor does one go to bed early. One sleeps precisely when one means to :}
VardaValar1: /keyboard face
AriehnV: and you too, Valarites :-) Namarie for now :-D
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
AriehnV: Be well and stay in my light :-)
fladrifv: may you shine on the world soon again
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Namar... too late
VardaValar1: She can see it in the transcript. :-)
karakedi25: In that case, namarie Arien :-)
ArPharazonV: I guess that's true.
ArPharazonV: Namarie Arien!
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie Arien!
Menelvagor Valar: If you would allow me, I have a theory to my own question ^^
VardaValar1: The children of Hurin were Turin, Nienor, and Lalaith.
VardaValar1: Fire away, Menel. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: In so far as that the Noldor affect Húrin, that is clear, as Húrin's (sorry for abbreviating to just names) would not have come to pass without the Noldor's.
Menelvagor Valar: But the other way around is more obscure.
Menelvagor Valar: The only real connection is that of the Fall of Nargothrond.
Menelvagor Valar: However, Túrin, while serving as a Marsh Warden of Doriath kept the river Sirion relatively clear of Orcs and other spawn of Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: "March Warden" I believe you mean :}
Menelvagor Valar: Thereby earning respite for both Turgon of Gondolin, as well as Nargothrond and the havens of Círdan the Shipwright.
Menelvagor Valar: sorry :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Also, when among the people of Haleth, he was always an ardent hunter of all Orc parties, waylaying them whenever he could, much to the ire of their leader, but still earning some respite for the Noldor.
Menelvagor Valar: For in that time, the Orcs roamed free for most parts, except around the Echoríath, where the Gondolindrim held their vigil, and the strongholds of the Elves
Menelvagor Valar: Also, Hurin's doom meant the wounding of Glaurung, father of Dragons, even if it was in response to the slaying of Finduilas, Túrin's love among the Nargothrondians (sp?).
Menelvagor Valar: So it seems to me that Húrin's doom ties in with that of the Noldor in three ways. One obvious, and 2, less so.
Menelvagor Valar: The first we already discussed: Nargothrond and its fall.
VardaValar1: More than mere wounding.
Menelvagor Valar: The second, is that of what the doom of the Noldor entailed.
Menelvagor Valar: Túrin, although with the best intentions, in the end, only brought woe upon those he visited, not least of those his own sister, and his best friend, Beleg Strongbow.
Menelvagor Valar: The third one, is even less obvious.
Menelvagor Valar: Since, even though Túrin's efforts were valiant, and gave respite to many Noldorin people, in the end his efforts came to naught.
Menelvagor Valar: Yet, the respite he bought with his woe was eventually part of the pardon of the Noldor.
Menelvagor Valar: Even if not directly, Túrin managed to hold the lines on many borders to allow others to slip through Morgoth's nets, not least of which was Voronwë and Tuor.
Menelvagor Valar: that's it for my theory :-)
Menelvagor Valar: any thoughts?
VardaValar1: Galdor was another hurt by Turin.
VardaValar1: Currently trying to help Galdor-V enter the chat. :-) He's Galdorandwe, can anyone see him?
Eonwe Valar: Not in here.
ArPharazonV: Galdorandwe, I'll add him
VardaValar1: I mean online, not in here. Still trying to get him in.
Eonwe Valar: Got him in my buddy list now. Looks like I can see him.
ArPharazonV: he's online now
ArPharazonV: you inviting, Eonwe?
Menelvagor Valar: I tried inviting, but it gives me an error message.
Eonwe Valar: I'd assumed one was already attempted.
VardaValar1: The Group Chat option is not even showing on his name to me.
ArPharazonV: "The Chat invitation cannot be sent to the following person because his or her software does not support this feature or the person is not accepting chat invitations."
Menelvagor Valar: Hmm... I didn't think of Galdor in this discussion Varda.
Menelvagor Valar: That's another direct influence.
Menelvagor Valar: For Galdor also loved Finduilas.
Eonwe Valar: That's Gwindor Menel :}
Menelvagor Valar: gaaah.. :-P
Menelvagor Valar: dang my memory.
galdorandwe has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Galdor :}
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Galdor!
galdorandwe: took me literally 2 hours ot figure this out, LOL.
karakedi25: Aiya Galdor :-)
Eonwe Valar: You're in now, and that's what matters :}
galdorandwe: well, in between making dinner and eating. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Aye :-)
VardaValar1: But you made it!
Menelvagor Valar: We're currently discussing how and if the Doom of the Children of Húrin affected the Doom of the Noldor :-)
galdorandwe: can you all get me caught up on what's transpired with the Children of Hurin topic?
Menelvagor Valar: well, so far we have several things.
VardaValar1: Galdor was the father of Hurin and Huor.
Menelvagor Valar: 1) direct influence: Nargothrond.
VardaValar1: We have an hour of discussion to catch you up on. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: 2) minor influence: same end result: woe.
Menelvagor Valar: 3) indirect influence: Túrin's (and Húrin's) efforts assisting in what eventually became the War of Wrath and the pardon of the Noldor.
Menelvagor Valar: in a nutshell that is :-)
VardaValar1: Destruction of the remnant of the Petty Dwarves on the side.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Galdor, if you have anything to say on the matter, feel free to, all input is good :-)
galdorandwe: I seem to recall Hurin's cries giving away gto location of Gondolin ot Morgoth's servents after his imprisonment...has anyone toughed upon this?
Menelvagor Valar: slightly :-)
Menelvagor Valar: we also commented that it was only a general location.
Menelvagor Valar: it was not until Maeglin's treachery that the true location was revealed.
galdorandwe: sorry, my typing skills are full of holes...I make spelling errors constantly, LOL
Menelvagor Valar: no worries :-)
ArPharazonV: Practice is usually enough, and everyone makes mistakes now and then :-)
Menelvagor Valar: even Pharzie does :-)
ArPharazonV: Of course! I just try to catch them before I hit enter, but even that is a guarantee.
ArPharazonV: *not a guarantee
ArPharazonV: Hah. Speak of the devil.
Menelvagor Valar: and he's as perfect as you can imagine a dead (or hibernating) person to be :-)
Menelvagor Valar: when it comes to Tolkien topics anyways.
Menelvagor Valar: grammatically... that's a different issue *winks at Pharzie*
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: Well, you know. A king needs to know a bit about his people's history. ...And their future, apparently.
Menelvagor Valar: Say, Galdor, may I ask you something?
galdorandwe: sure.
Menelvagor Valar: Well, I am a notoriously bad readed of news and email and such, so I was wondering, how'd you manage to find us? :-)
galdorandwe: I was looking up images of the Valar on Google and believe it or not, your site was one of the first ones to pop up. I checked it out and was impressed at the member's admiration of Tolkein and his works. I never knew as many people out there like his works as much as i did...I know that must come across as a bit cheezy, but it's the truth. The rest, as the say, is history. After a few e-mails with Varda, a few days to get the LoTRO software, and 2 days to download everything, I was in my own little Middle earth advanture...LOL.
VardaValar1: He's leveling fast in Middle-earth, took to it very well. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
galdorandwe: The Geeks shall inherit Middle earth, right :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Not cheesy at all Galdor :-)
VardaValar1: If not the geeks, then the munchers of pie.
Menelvagor Valar: I remember much the same, although what I found was the old Google discussion board :-)
VardaValar1: We used to get most of our members coming in from the web site. Hasn't been true lately, so you've gone back to the traditional way!
Menelvagor Valar: Gogo Galdor!
Menelvagor Valar: Now, this may really sound cheesy... but still...
Menelvagor Valar: Welcome home! :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Have you met many of the valarites yet?
galdorandwe: Are they back-up singers, like the Ikettes?
Menelvagor Valar: hehe.
Menelvagor Valar: Valarites are the members of the Valar Guild :-)
galdorandwe: Here's a question: My memory is a little fuzzy, so help me out. Is there something in this whole topic about Turin, a curse and his sword having a conversation with him about it?
Eonwe Valar: It happened after he slew Brandir and found out he had married his sister.
Menelvagor Valar: Hmm... it might have an impact on it, I haven't heard that one yet :-D
Eonwe Valar: It was part of his Doom, not sure it would've really been related to or impact upon the Doom of the Noldor.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, but how does that tie in with the Doom of the Noldor?
galdorandwe: The dragon he slew was the same one that sacked Nargothrond, yes?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Glaurung.
VardaValar1: Glaurung, right.
Menelvagor Valar: Glauring, father of Dragons, aye.
VardaValar1: The curse was laid on Hurin's family by Morgoth.
Menelvagor Valar: auch... a bit out of my league.
VardaValar1: The sword, made by Eol the Dark Elf, could and did talk a few times, and was angry at Turin for having been used to kill Beleg (by accident).
Menelvagor Valar: I don't play much, my highest is a lvl 35 hunter called Menelmacare.
VardaValar1: The sword was Anglachel.
Menelvagor Valar: whoops... wrong chat :-P
ArPharazonV: I think I'll be off to bed now, gonna send and save transcript.
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Phar.
galdorandwe: good night.
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie Pharzie... don't forget the RP ^^
Menelvagor Valar: Say, Galdor, and sorry for the change of subject, but do you happen to RP?
VardaValar1: Good night, Phar!
VardaValar1: RP is Role-play
VardaValar1: Play more, Menel. ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: I should... still can't say goodbye to my Druid though.
Menelvagor Valar: I love tanking too much :-P
VardaValar1: Don't have to.
ArPharazonV (7:32:05 PM):saved
VardaValar1 (7:32:29 PM):Thank you, Golden One. :-)
Menelvagor Valar (7:32:31 PM):LotRO seemed to agree with me, when the Red Maiden tried to kill me pretty much all the time when I was in Garth Agarwen the other day :-)
Menelvagor Valar (7:32:59 PM):Thank you, oh Sleepy One *grin*
ArPharazonV (7:34:17 PM):and sent
Menelvagor Valar (7:34:23 PM):welcome back :-)
ArPharazonV (7:34:25 PM):so, Namarie all!
Menelvagor Valar (7:34:31 PM):And Namarie once more :-)
ArPharazonV (7:34:31 PM):See you next week.
VardaValar1 (7:34:38 PM):Moving to:

VardaValar1 (7:34:42 PM):After-meeting!
VardaValar1 (7:34:45 PM):Free chat.
Menelvagor Valar (7:34:52 PM):weeee. :-)
VardaValar1 (7:34:56 PM):Next week then. :-)
galdorandwe (7:35:20 PM):Well, this has been a nice introduction to the whole meeting thing. Thanks everyone.
Menelvagor Valar (7:35:32 PM):No problem Galdor.
Menelvagor Valar (7:35:40 PM):Always happy to make a new member feel welcome.
Eonwe Valar (7:35:55 PM):Glad you could make it in, Galdor :}
Menelvagor Valar (7:36:16 PM):Aye :-)
VardaValar1 (7:37:58 PM):I need to do some family stuff for a bit, but this AIM chat can be left up all week if you like, or you can close it at any time.
VardaValar1 (7:38:18 PM):See you folks later!
Eonwe Valar (7:38:24 PM):Take care Varda :}
Menelvagor Valar (7:38:33 PM):Depending on how long I keep my comp on without restarting, this chat could be up for a long, long time... Eonwe can attest :-)
VardaValar1 (7:38:37 PM):hehe
Eonwe Valar (7:38:42 PM)::}
VardaValar1 (7:38:42 PM):Namarie for now!
Menelvagor Valar (7:38:52 PM):Namarie Varda.
VardaValar1 (7:38:58 PM):*drifts off into the aether*
Menelvagor Valar (7:38:59 PM):Give the tree a big hug for me.
VardaValar1 (7:39:05 PM):I would if I could!
galdorandwe (7:39:05 PM):I'll be completing quests in Evendim shortly....good night.
Menelvagor Valar (7:39:19 PM):as well as the Evil guy, the nice lady, the Hobbit, and any others attached to any of those :-)
VardaValar1 (7:39:21 PM):Timbridhil was deeding over there.
VardaValar1 (7:39:26 PM):hehe
VardaValar1 (7:39:30 PM):bye really now. :-)
Eonwe Valar (7:39:37 PM)::}
VardaValar1 (11:21:44 PM):Good night, gentle sirs.