Valar Guild

December 19, 2010 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Indis-(V)/karakedi25, Menelvagor Valar, and VardaValar1
Meeting begins
    Battlenet 2.0 is about to include StarCraft2 to allow chat capabilities.
    Christmas-style festivities began in WoW and LotRO.
    LotRO: considering afternoon runs on Monday for small groups, due to time difficulties. Wednesday is for high level instance runs.
    Magic, sub-creation
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya Menel.
Menelvagor Valar: hey Pharzie... want to know how much dmg your savage defense reduces?
Menelvagor Valar: as I suppose you're still tank :-)
ArPharazonV: isn't it on the ability?
Menelvagor Valar: nope.
Menelvagor Valar: says 35% of your attack power.
ArPharazonV: yep
Menelvagor Valar: and your attack power is variable, as well as your mastery increases the total amount.
ArPharazonV: which says 32%
ArPharazonV: it's easy math, really
Menelvagor Valar: and how much mastery do you have?
ArPharazonV: 8.00
Menelvagor Valar: righto.
Menelvagor Valar: ok, then, how much damage do you reduce?
ArPharazonV: that should be... 67% of my ap? two thirds, approximately?
Eonwe Valar: We'll give it a couple more minutes, then begin the meeting. Gwaihir, GIlraen, and Galdor have invitations. If you see anyone else not here that's on and doesn't have an invitation, please send them one.
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure what your point is going to be, but I'm looking forward to it.
Menelvagor Valar: I can give you the exact numbers :-)
Menelvagor Valar: not percentages :-)
ArPharazonV: Well it depends on my ap doesn't it?
Menelvagor Valar: yes, but that is calculable :-)
ArPharazonV: it's.. in the game, though
Menelvagor Valar: yes, but you don't exactly have time to check your AP while fighting, now do you?
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Varda :-)
ArPharazonV: Why would I care right when I'm fighting how much I'm going to absorb? It's too late to do anything about it and it shows up in the combat log anyway.
Menelvagor Valar: ?key=tnx_5GRQGZUnNtIbTkXDNpQ# gid=0
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar, Eonwe, and Menel. :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya Varda
Menelvagor Valar: because it helps you determine how good your tank really is :-)
Menelvagor Valar: and thus which stats you will have to focus on :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda.
ArPharazonV: I don't have access to the spreadsheet.
ArPharazonV: Nice try though!
Menelvagor Valar: now you do :-D
ArPharazonV: nope, still don't
Menelvagor Valar: forgot to change viewing privileges to anyone with the link :-)
Menelvagor Valar: try closing your browser and reopening the link.
ArPharazonV: closing the window's not enough? my browser takes ages for all the tabs to load
Menelvagor Valar: window then.
ArPharazonV: *tab, I mean
Menelvagor Valar: tab, or whatever it's called.
ArPharazonV: Nope! Still nothing. Fine, restarting the browser, but this had better work.
Menelvagor Valar: weird...
Menelvagor Valar: OcI#gid=0
Menelvagor Valar: right... doh.
Menelvagor Valar: the link changes when using a different authorization setting ...
ArPharazonV: Yeah, now it gets to wait a few minutes while my browser reloads.
Eonwe Valar: OK gents, let's start the meeting. Whisper me if you have news for any section so we can speed the meeting along a bit.
Menelvagor Valar: rI/edit?authkey=CIKonroO#
Menelvagor Valar: and that there is the mathemathical equasion behind it :-)
AriehnV has entered the room.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
ArPharazonV: I'm supposed to change the stats or something?
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: We're all here :}
VardaValar1: Huzzah : )
AriehnV: aiya all :-)
VardaValar1: Not sure if this should be mentioned, but yesterday the eye doctor diagnosed me with early onset cataracts. I'm fine right now, and probably won't need an operation for 10-15 years, but may be getting foggier over that time.
AriehnV: blerks
ArPharazonV: Eek. Good luck with that, I suppose?
VardaValar1: Thanks
VardaValar1: Increased font size should be plenty to handle the internet stuff, no worries. : )
ArPharazonV: Okidoki.
ArPharazonV: Don't think boldness will help much.
AriehnV: i ll be thinking of ye , Varda, but at least its relatively easy treatable .. but i am medicophopic i fear anyway but i hope ye dont suffer from that hehe
Eonwe Valar: I am sorry to hear that. I hope they take much longer to settle in than that.
Menelvagor Valar: ctrl-scrolling should increase / decrease the size of the letters in IE at least :-)
VardaValar1: Okies, in other news...
Menelvagor Valar: or rather, it's a zoom function :-)
VardaValar1: Eowyn and Schlep aka Faramir-to-be have moved to Arizona and got their internet set up. Now if they can just peer over the boxes, we may be seeing them around again in the gaming world. : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Congrats to them in their new home :}
Menelvagor Valar: yayzers :-)
Menelvagor Valar: what Eonwe said :-D
VardaValar1: That's all my Membership news, until more comes to mind. ;-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other membership news?
Menelvagor Valar: well, I have something, though it's not exactly news :-)
Eonwe Valar: I almost wonder if I should say go ahead :}
VardaValar1: We could say keep it short? ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year (albeit a bit in advance)!!
VardaValar1: Yay!
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Merry Christmas all indeed :}
ArPharazonV: Merry Christmas!
Menelvagor Valar: short enough? *winks*
VardaValar1: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year ahead of time to you all as well!
Eonwe Valar: Safe journeys to those who are travelling :}
VardaValar1: Nice job, Menel. A record for short for you! :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I can be concise... sometimes.
Menelvagor Valar: though my reputation now compels me to find out how I can overly elongate that message ^^
VardaValar1: Or can you shorten it even more! *gasp*
Eonwe Valar: MC :}
Menelvagor Valar: MCaHNY!?
Eonwe Valar: OK, time to move to Web news.
ArPharazonV: HH
Menelvagor Valar: hmmm... sounds like an Irish surname... McAhny :-P
ArPharazonV: Happy Holidays!

Eonwe Valar: Web:
Tolkien Site:
VardaValar1: Sorry, I've been a slacker this week.
VardaValar1: Got to thinking about old articles needing completed from the Hobbit, elven king line, working on Kings navigation, and yet nothing got on the screen!
Menelvagor Valar: thinking is more than half the job!
Gaming Site:
Eonwe Valar: I've recently had an extrenal hard drive die on me, so my own webwork has been stalled for now.
VardaValar1: ack!
Eonwe Valar: *external
Eonwe Valar: Luckily it was *only* an external hard drive, or I wouldn't be here right now.
VardaValar1: *whew*

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: Starcraft 2:
Eonwe Valar: I move it up front because I remembered that I didn't mention this last week: public testing for patch 1.2 is going on.
Eonwe Valar: This patch is supposed to bring chat channels to bnet 2.0
VardaValar1: Have to catch up to LotRO sometime. ;-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: Aiya
AriehnV: aiya Indis :-)
Eonwe Valar: That's the most important addition, at least to me. For other changes, see:
Eonwe Valar:
Menelvagor Valar: MCaHNY Indis!
karakedi25: ????
Eonwe Valar: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year :}
ArPharazonV: Old MCaHNY had a farm..
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Menelvagor Valar: did that in side chat to avoid cluttering :-P
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Menel :} A few more people and it would certainly get messy us all trying to say that :}
Menelvagor Valar: tihi :-)
Menelvagor Valar: think I may have discovered a new slang word :-D
Eonwe Valar: Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: We've been working on all the new Cataclysm stuff. The Lothar branch is level 3, and we've got a couple of guild achievements :} The hope for a couple of us is to run a few Cataclysm dungeons tonight after the meeting.

Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Servers will be down tomorrow for maintainance, but should be back up in plenty of time for the Monday run.
Eonwe Valar: Varda, would you like to add any reports for LotRO?
VardaValar1: Should only be down about an hour. But oh the horror!
VardaValar1: Sure, thanks. : )
VardaValar1: The Monday runs tend to not have enough people on at the 8pm EST time, although it's looking as if we could do some nivgy afternoon running. We still try though.
karakedi25: chances are I can be around for a planned afternoon run on Mondays
VardaValar1: So Monday we ran some three-mans, hoping we'd have enough people popping in and out to run several with different folks.
VardaValar1: It's more of seeing how it goes right now, before we put anything down as scheduled. Trying to get people like Orome who can't make it at all to the late night runs, see what happens.
VardaValar1: The Yule Festival has begun, as of Tuesday, quite different in some ways. And it has a new horse, which I *must* get. ;-)
VardaValar1: The Wednesday run was a 6-man Annuminas and Ulmo has since studied it with some other group runs so he thinks we can do better next time.
karakedi25: It does look ince
karakedi25: *nice
VardaValar1: We plan to do the Annuminas run next Wednesday, although Melkor can't come.
VardaValar1: And we're as usual willing to help each other any time we can get a group up. :-)
VardaValar1: Impulse runs are fun too. : )
karakedi25: absolutely
VardaValar1: That's my news. : )
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
karakedi25: I might add that at least 3 of our members have done the hardest boss in LotRO, repeatedly now.
Eonwe Valar: I should point out WInterveil is going in WOW, now that I've remembered it *cough*
VardaValar1: hehe
karakedi25: That's the Lieutenant of Barad Guldur, and the members are Ulmo, Malva, and Indis.
ArPharazonV: who is the hardest boss? just out of lore curiosity..
ArPharazonV: ah
VardaValar1: Amroth has also.
karakedi25: OK, didn't know that. Anyway, I'm forgetting his name, but it's in apocrypha if not lore.
VardaValar1: The game is very far from finished. Next fall, we move out to the Isengard area, with much more room to grow over time.
Eonwe Valar: And hopefully to new places between now and then :}
Eonwe Valar: Or at least new quests :}
VardaValar1: Definitely, new place and quests.
VardaValar1: We're pretty much done for LotRO news.
Eonwe Valar: THanks :}
Eonwe Valar: OK, does anyone have any other gaming news? Now is also the time to whisper me Tolkien topics.

ArPharazonV: No Guild Wars for me this week, I've been neglecting most of my other online business to get a move on in Cataclysm, where I'm still doing lowlevel zones. I have been spending a bit of time on some flashgames online though, notably on the Physicsgames site I'd linked some time ago.
Eonwe Valar: OK, if that's it for gaming, then on to Tolkien :}
VardaValar1: SC/BW for me and Fangorn.

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: Since everyone here is a contributor to the RP, how about we discuss the merits/possibilities of Indis suggestion of a side-quest from last week.
VardaValar1: Beorning-related? Wild men for something unusual?
VardaValar1: The wild men are quite neglected, as they are not a major group, but eventually were given a portion of Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: The center bit between Thranduil's and Celeborn's domain, if I remember right
ArPharazonV: *domains
VardaValar1: Aye. :-)
VardaValar1: Mostly we think of the Woses when we say wild men, but this is a different group.
AriehnV: i(quick insert ... i ve seen both Calaron and Theoden in the Valar Chat on AD .. been through Vashir on Urwendi and the Worgen has reached lvl 20 heading towards Duskwood .. insert end)#
ArPharazonV: *nod* poked Arien for the meeting earlier ;-)
VardaValar1: Thank you both. : )
karakedi25: I think the Beornings are less 'primitive' than the Woses. They've had more exposure to other Mannish civilizations.
VardaValar1: I wasn't sure Theoden was still with us, thank you a ton for that. : )
karakedi25: I'm thinking of something that's damaging/sickening their bees. Possibly something emanating from either Dol Guldur or our sorcerer.
ArPharazonV: I don't see the Beornings keeping bees and ponies, I'll give you that.
VardaValar1: I don't consider the Beornings primitive, but maybe eco-nut were-bears. : )
ArPharazonV: *the Woses
Eonwe Valar: I was under the impression Calaron was our "sorcerer"?
ArPharazonV: yes
ArPharazonV: He might have his old body lying around somewhere still, but he's definitely inside Calaron now.
Eonwe Valar: Well, his old body would have to be dead at this point.
karakedi25: Calaron is occupied by the sorcerer, but isn't the sorcerer.
ArPharazonV: Coma, suspended animation, cryogenics... maybe dead. Probably dead.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Calaron himself is not literally the sorcerer. I figured that was understood so I didn't bother making the distinction.
karakedi25: If he's driven out of Calaron, he'd be a 'houseless' spirit, and would have to be dealt with.
karakedi25: (lest he possess someone else)
Menelvagor Valar: Good thing Sauron never got his hands on this possessing thing :-D
karakedi25 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: I'm chalking it up to the fact that no mortal or elf body would be strong enough to hold him!
Eonwe Valar: It'd have to be someone foolish enough to volunteer his-or-herself, if I remember the section on the Houseless as well as I think I do.
AriehnV: i would imagine that he needs to be faced at the end of the story or towards the end i d guess ..
AriehnV: he sounds like an "endboss"
ArPharazonV: Yah, we'll face him in Angmar. I've got plans. Many plans.
Menelvagor Valar: he sounds like the Lich King :-D
ArPharazonV: *rubs hands*
AriehnV: hehe
ArPharazonV: many... many plans...
Menelvagor Valar: double pun intended :-D
Menelvagor Valar: I have one plan.
Eonwe Valar: Anywa,y my point in bringing Calaron up was that if he the Sorcerer, he wouldn't be heading southwards towards the carrock, but northwards towards Angmar, possibly Gundabad.
Menelvagor Valar: sneak, knife, stick, end.
ArPharazonV: Aye. Sorcerer's not to be found for this sidequest. His effects might be lingering though.
Menelvagor Valar: doubtful.
ArPharazonV: Beornings: "Yeah, something's making our bees sick. We're thinking it's either from Dol Guldur, or some sorcerer we heard rumors of." Party: "Oh, yeah, we saw that sorcerer. He's not here, went off to Angmar. We'll head to Dol Guldur instead!"
Eonwe Valar: The Carrock is a bit far for his influence to extend, considering that his task has been concentrated on northern Mirkwood.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: Sorry, I seem to have logged myself out :-(
VardaValar1: Welcome back :-)
karakedi25: yjsmld
karakedi25: *thianks
karakedi25: *thanks darnitg
karakedi25: feh
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
karakedi25: you know what I mean
VardaValar1: hehe - hands just not quite centered on the keyboard. : ) No worries.
VardaValar1: Appendix B, all the wide forest between the territories of Thranduil and Celeborn after the war were given to the Beornings and Woodmen. (Not a quote, short version.)
Eonwe Valar: I IM'd Indis what she missed :}
VardaValar1: Thanks : )
Eonwe Valar: So that's who you mean by "Wild Men"
VardaValar1: How about that dark cloud that was in Mirkwood? The Carrock too far for it completely?
VardaValar1: Woodmen, my apologies.
VardaValar1: Gulhine or whatever it was called?
Menelvagor Valar: Gulhuine rings a bell.
Eonwe Valar: Depends on where the cloud is. If it was emanating from Dul Guldor, the Carrock, and we for that matter, look to be a bit far north to be seeing it personally.
ArPharazonV: Think that's it, yes.
VardaValar1: Other mention is The Shadow of the Past in the FotR, bare mention.
Eonwe Valar: Let's also not forget it's rained since we last spoke of this "Gulhuine."
VardaValar1: The Woodmen commented on rumors of Gollum.
VardaValar1: Aye, so maybe the bees were barely touched and hopefully improving, if touched at all.
VardaValar1: Does kind of help bring the story together, showing some connection.
VardaValar1: Bees can be quite delicate. The other animals were probably not affected? Maybe a little restless?
ArPharazonV: If they're already improving, what's our job then? :-)
VardaValar1: But that also means the cloud went all the way out to the river, and that's stretching it.
ArPharazonV: ..pun?
Menelvagor Valar: knowing Varda, not intended :-D
ArPharazonV: *grin*
VardaValar1: Maybe just the younger ones are improving? The older ones need saved? Or some of the eggs and larvae are sickly and our lore-master could help?
VardaValar1: Menel, you know me too well. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I've known you for over a decade... time tends to do that :-D
VardaValar1: I do pun on purpose, but often not on purpose. heh
karakedi25: help, but also help find the cause?
VardaValar1: The LM (you) may diagnose it as after-effects of the Gulhuine?
karakedi25: or maybe just some cures would be enough. Could do that too. Would be a short, non-violent side event.
karakedi25: and get us some lovely honey-cakes to take with us *yum*
VardaValar1: What a lovely reward that would be. They don't have to mention they were going to give them anyway and had a surplus.
Eonwe Valar: Would make our stayover in Beorning territoy worth it to the locals.
Eonwe Valar: *territory
ArPharazonV: A non-violent quest would be fun, yes.
karakedi25: Your Lore-master might send you off for some special herbs and such to cure the bees. :-D
VardaValar1: Needs to be short.
VardaValar1: Your experience in Mirkwood might have given you an idea of what mix to make.
VardaValar1: Maybe along the way we see signs of odd wilted edges, slightly confused behavior in animals?
karakedi25: sure
ArPharazonV: Confused animals. I have a hard time visualizing that. We talking about foxes eating grass or something?
ArPharazonV: squirrels running into walls?
VardaValar1: Foxes do sometimes eat grass, but aye, something weird. We could have it funny at the start, then it becomes more ominous.
VardaValar1: We realize this is what could come at us again if we don't stop this sorceror.
VardaValar1: Learning what we can on the small effects can give us an idea of what to do when hit with something stronger.
VardaValar1: Anyone else here? : )
ArPharazonV: *raises hand*
VardaValar1: Yay!
Eonwe Valar: I'm here.
Eonwe Valar: I was flipping to the forum for the RP as I consider the transition from our last post to our goal.
Eonwe Valar: *goal being our actions at the Carrock, for now.
karakedi25: I'm here
Eonwe Valar: It seems we first have to deal with Fainan's combat drills suggestion.
VardaValar1: The drills are intended to do as we go along.
karakedi25: Maybe the observations we make would happen as we do the drilling.
VardaValar1: We could be doing a drill and notice weirdness in some of the animals, like a squirrel not getting out of the way that should. But it's not rabid.
VardaValar1: What Indis said. : )
ArPharazonV: *stares at squirrel-corpse* Why didn't it move?? *cries*
VardaValar1: It could seem funny at first, the we realize it's getting over the lingering effects of the cloud.
VardaValar1: It's all a warning of what we need to prevent.
ArPharazonV: What kind of drills do you have in mind, anyway?
Menelvagor Valar: I have a bit of concern here.
Menelvagor Valar: aren't animals supposed to be "weird" around Elves anyways?
VardaValar1: Team fighting.
VardaValar1: Different weird, one strange to elves.
VardaValar1: Like tilting the head and running in circles.
Menelvagor Valar: that I can wrap my heard around :-)
Menelvagor Valar: not literally of course... that would be entirely too weird... even for us ^^
VardaValar1: (Known genetic defect in certain strains of rats. One such was used in Raiders of the Lost Ark.)
VardaValar1: Mr. Fantastic.
Menelvagor Valar: well, he was wrapping his neck and other parts... not his head ^^
VardaValar1: For a fantasy land, Middle-earth is remarkably straightforward.
ArPharazonV: Well, there's little "magic" as we know it from other fantasy.
VardaValar1: We can attack a hummock pretending baddies are behind it. Flanking manueuvers, guarding the one ahead or to the side of you, always keeping within eye contact.
Menelvagor Valar: that's because aside from the fantasy races, it's just like any other novel... a thousand times better written.
VardaValar1: and fantasy places like Lothlorien? Ring-affected.
karakedi25: and elf-affected. After all, elves did have some of what humans call 'magic,' innately. They called it 'art.'
VardaValar1: We're about to go meet were-bears with animal servants. : )
VardaValar1: Galadriel didn't think what she did should be lumped with what Sauron did, using the same word of magic.
VardaValar1: After all, she's shooting for redemption. She's a Lady of Lorien, not a Queen, although she's acting in the place of the queen.
VardaValar1: She wants to be accepted back into Valinor. If she's comparable to Sauron, that could be a problem.
VardaValar1: I don't see others complaining about the use of the word, but may have missed it.
Eonwe Valar: I think the Valar would understand the difference :}
VardaValar1: Aye. : )
karakedi25: Yes, and what Galadriel means by magic is the use of supernatural power to control others.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, through deception or display of force, among other things.
karakedi25: Not the elven powers to subcreate.
VardaValar1: Aye.
VardaValar1: She doesn't want to think those abilities might spring from the same source.
Eonwe Valar: Technically they don't since Galadriel's come from Galadriel, and Sauron's come from Sauron :}
Menelvagor Valar: I don't think the Elves create though... aside from inanimate materials.
Menelvagor Valar: they foster and guide growth into beauty.
Eonwe Valar: The Palantir are a creation.
Menelvagor Valar: inanimate :-)
ArPharazonV: inanimate materials... like the elven rope that lets go on its own? :-)
VardaValar1: What about the Mirror of Galadriel? Yes, it's inanimate, but not growth.
Menelvagor Valar: well, okay, some things are not exactly in that category :-)
Eonwe Valar: Elves don't create new Life, no. Even the Valar cannot give Being to their works.
VardaValar1: That rope also glowed in the darkness somewhat and burned Gollum with its touch.
VardaValar1: Only Eru gave life, aye. The Secret Fire of his being.
Menelvagor Valar: well, most things can be traced and correlated to in the real world.
VardaValar1: But Eru did make sub-creators.
VardaValar1: Writing a fantasy book is sub-creation. : )
Menelvagor Valar: viewing it in that light, then yes :-)
VardaValar1: The use of the creative ability should be adding to Eru's theme, and if that's not intended will be worked into the theme. Can't get out of the music. : )
Menelvagor Valar: "The Pattern weaves as it will" - Moiraine Damodred (and many others) - Wheel of Time.
karakedi25: Tolkien didn't exclude creation, but Eru's Children performed subcreation, or creation derivative from what Eru created.
VardaValar1: Vaire the Weaver. : )
karakedi25: But that could be quite remarkable, like the examples given above.
Menelvagor Valar: but then, even Melkor and Sauron sub-create, for they are also part of the Music, aye?
VardaValar1: They did, aye.
Menelvagor Valar: even though it's discordant, and thus of a different nature.
karakedi25: yes, they could subcreate. Presumably all the Ainur could.
VardaValar1: But Melkor lost his ability over time.
VardaValar1: Sauron was a fine student of Aule the Crafter.
Menelvagor Valar: well, even the Orcs create.
VardaValar1: Eventually Melkor could only corrupt, not do the great things he used to do.
Menelvagor Valar: but still, isn't that the same thing?
karakedi25: that's because he spent is creative power in trying to control all of Arda
Menelvagor Valar: I mean, to corrupt one thing to make another, isn't that the same, albeit with different intent and results, as simple "making" one thing out of another?
VardaValar1: It was not viewed as such in the books, from the way I read them.
Menelvagor Valar: to a pacifist, the creating of weapons would very likely be the corrupting of steel.
VardaValar1: Yet to others, protecting those same pacifists with their weapons and lives would be a good thing.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: What Morgoth did was pretty well agreed to be corrupt from any view.
Menelvagor Valar: so what I think makes the distinction the distinction between creation and corruption is intent.
Menelvagor Valar: (sentence sounds weird, but kinda intended that way)
VardaValar1: It was in the same category wherein evil lost the ability to fly.
VardaValar1: But your point is intriguing.
ArPharazonV: All a matter of semantics?
Menelvagor Valar: not exactly.
VardaValar1: Not to me, but I can see how it could look that way.
ArPharazonV: But if intent is the distinction, why was Morgoth able to make weaponry? :-)
Menelvagor Valar: his intent was to conquer and destroy.
ArPharazonV: Are you saying that if he had intended to make weaponry to protect his servants normally, he would not be able to succeed?
VardaValar1: Originally, Morgoth had a share in the gifts of all the other Valar, making him a great sub-creator. But then he began losing that and had to copy or twist.
AriehnV: a shovel can be used to dig earth and to build a heap of earth and it can be used as double handed mace :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Those who made weapons to fight him intended to conquer and destroy him, yes, but with the greater goal so everyone could live free for themselves.
VardaValar1: Sauron stepped in later as one who still had some creativity left.
Menelvagor Valar: but he also lost that.
karakedi25: Making things and creating/inventing things are different. Melkor didn't invent weapons.
VardaValar1: Both lost much of their power by putting it into their creations. Morgoth put much into Arda itself, his "ring".
AriehnV: and a fine one for that matter ... .. but i mean the same thing can be used for different purposes
AriehnV: i see Menels point
Menelvagor Valar: but I also see Varda's point :-D
AriehnV: *nods"
VardaValar1: It's a fascinating point.
Menelvagor Valar: Might I suggest it could be both at the same time?
VardaValar1: The demarcation of where creation leaves off and plagiarism or twisting begins.
Menelvagor Valar: If I remember correctly... was not part of Morgoth's intent to twist his enemy's creations into something vile and hated?
VardaValar1: Balrogs already existed, but Morgoth seduced them to his side. They apparently lost the power of flight and were therefore both mentally and physically twisted. But Morgoth did not create them; Eru did.
Menelvagor Valar: very true.
VardaValar1: Where does the creation and the plagiarism have a line?
Menelvagor Valar: Hard to tell...
Menelvagor Valar: weren't the dragons supposed to be the opposite of Yavanna's Ents?
ArPharazonV: weren't that the trolls?
Menelvagor Valar: not sure... will have to take the Sil for that.
Eonwe Valar: Trolls ->Ents
VardaValar1: Trolls/Ents.
VardaValar1: Pardon, Fangorn is chatting in rl. Now over to WoW with Sauron. At least it was about Tolkien's languages and naming. : )
Menelvagor Valar:
VardaValar1: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: I knew I wrote about that a while ago :-)
VardaValar1: That's a story. What really tickles me is you're citing your own story. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: it's been a while.
Menelvagor Valar: but what I wrote there is from the books :-)
Menelvagor Valar: and that Morgoth created the dragons was with the Ents in his thoughts.
VardaValar1: At one time Glarung was going to be a form of Sauron, as Tevildo was. One reason he was so intelligent and all over the place. Interesting character.
Menelvagor Valar: from letters?
Menelvagor Valar: as I don't seem to remember that anywhere being mentioned in the books I read.
Menelvagor Valar: might also be in histories of course.
VardaValar1: digging out Letters. Could take a while. I'd also like to see your mention of the dragons, as that's interesting too.
VardaValar1: Canon is trolls/Ents.
Menelvagor Valar: I will look it up.
Menelvagor Valar: and apologize in advance if I am wrong :-)
Eonwe Valar: The Trolls -> Ents comparison is made by Fangorn himself, so it's easy to find and reference.
Eonwe Valar: In reference to it being canon, not into looking it up, as I assume Menel was referencing the Dragons - > Ents for that.
Menelvagor Valar: I stand corrected.
Menelvagor Valar: the first mention of Glaurung in the Sil is his issuing forth, nothing about his creation.
Menelvagor Valar: I really must have made that up then.
Menelvagor Valar: silly me.
AriehnV: its a nice story tho
AriehnV: very interesting i think
VardaValar1: Aye, the comment was fine for drama in the story.
Menelvagor Valar: thanks ^^
Eonwe Valar: It's 6:20 and we have strayed somewhat for the original topic (which is fine, since we got into a Tolkien discussion) but I think it's time to bang the gavel and let those who need to depart to do so :}
Eonwe Valar: *Raises gavel into the air*
ArPharazonV: *pulls table away*
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs gavel*
VardaValar1: hmm, Glorund also

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting :}
VardaValar1: Eonwe can bang gavels on air, a fine Valar trait. :-)
ArPharazonV: Hmm, impressive.
Eonwe Valar: Being the Herald/son of Manwë helps :}
Eonwe Valar: You can't stop the sound of thunder :}
VardaValar1: Rolling, rolling.
Menelvagor Valar: haha :-)
VardaValar1: of Sauron: "No mortal with the Ring could have withstood him"
Menelvagor Valar: hmmm... I am rereading the paper I did on the World of Tolkien...
Menelvagor Valar: I have so far noticed at least a dozen grammatical or syntacitcal errors :-P
VardaValar1: Want to do a rewrite? : )
Menelvagor Valar: I think I might.
VardaValar1: It's on Arveleg's site.
Menelvagor Valar: but this is one of those mighty "might"s of mine :-P
Menelvagor Valar: which for some stupid reason I never get around to.
VardaValar1: I don't have control of that one, so you might do a cc on it. Long thing.
Menelvagor Valar: cc?
Menelvagor Valar: never mind :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I know what you mean :-)
VardaValar1: ok, this looks like JRRT was in some agreement with Galadriel, page 152 Letters.
VardaValar1: but he puts quote marks around it.
Menelvagor Valar: oh?
VardaValar1: Power is also an ominous word unless applied to the gods.
VardaValar1: In Eregion the elves came their nearest to falling to "magic" and machinery.
VardaValar1: I am not quoting, short version.
Menelvagor Valar: interesting.
VardaValar1: Preservation was more or less elvish, but enhancing the natural powers of the possessor approached "magic".
AriehnV: right Valarites think its time to head off west .. err upstairs i mean
Menelvagor Valar: such as the Rings of Power did?
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien.
VardaValar1: Namarie Arien :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Menelvagor Valar: Good night Arien.
AriehnV: you too once you get to it :-) Namarie
Menelvagor Valar: Say hi to Tilion for me? :-D
AriehnV: pfft he has to catch me for that first
VardaValar1: exactly what they're talking about, aye, Menel, Rings of "Power" note ominous word.
AriehnV: but then i might
VardaValar1: hehehe
VardaValar1: He's a bright fellow. : )
VardaValar1: Not as bright as you though.
Eonwe Valar: He also said somewhere that "Valar" would be better translated as "Authorities" rather than "Powers"
VardaValar1: not quote: enhancing the possessor's power approached "magic", a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination.
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: That gives a definition of one of the qualities of evil: lust for domination.
Menelvagor Valar: which is exactly why the Elves did not wear their Rings until Sauron was cast down in the first War of the Ring.
karakedi25: that was the essence of Tolkien's definition of evil I believe
Menelvagor Valar: or whatever it was called :-)
Menelvagor Valar: In other words, the distinction Tolkien made is different than mine :-)
VardaValar1: I'm still supposed to be finding where Glaurung was originally going to be Sauron but the story was changed. : )
Eonwe Valar: Melkor's M.O. was: 1.) Everything should be mine 2.) Everything that's not mine, gets destroyed.
VardaValar1: Above, the words after "magic" are a quote.
VardaValar1: Aye Eonwe. : )
VardaValar1: Since at the heart of things, things were not made by Morgoth, he was going to destroy everything.
Menelvagor Valar: I really wonder what would happen to the Dragons.
Menelvagor Valar: I'd really hate for them to be destroyed.
VardaValar1: Perhaps whatever Morgoth and Sauron made into dragons still remains.
VardaValar1: Like...lizards.
Eonwe Valar: Dinosaurs :}
Menelvagor Valar: They're majesitc, though absolutely not advisable to view them from up close... or a hundred miles off for that matter.
VardaValar1: Pteranodons? : ) Sometimes drawn like those and pterodactyls.
VardaValar1: Crocodiles remain, a bit smaller than early ones from dinosaur times though. : )
Menelvagor Valar: or just snakes cross-bred with dragonflies?
ArPharazonV: fel beasts?
VardaValar1: hehehe
Eonwe Valar: Glaurung was a wingless dragon. And don't reptiles keep growing as they age? I remember reading that somewhere.
Menelvagor Valar: they do.
Menelvagor Valar: up to a certain point anyways.
VardaValar1: Aye, slowly. But they seem to have a cut-off point as one kind of lizard is generally seen to grow larger than another.
Menelvagor Valar: and after that point only minimally.
VardaValar1: and turtles don't seem to age as we think of it.
VardaValar1: How about adding in bats for bat wings? : )
Menelvagor Valar: good point.
VardaValar1: That was some pretty crazy cross-breeding or whatever they did. Grafting on some?
Menelvagor Valar: so Morgoth took a couple hundred years to genetically engineer his lizards to grow incredibly large, and after Glaurung figured it better have wings too, and started a whole new strain cross bred with bats.
ArPharazonV: Interesting to breed very large lizards with bats. You'd need to breed the bats a lot bigger too. Unless you started over with smaller lizards breeding with bats, and then growing the result!
Menelvagor Valar: hmmm...
VardaValar1: That makes better sense, aye.
Menelvagor Valar: reading that paper of mine I came upon an interesting part :-)
VardaValar1: Here's a note on Elrond and Rivendell, nice for our RP maybe.
Menelvagor Valar: Anyone remember this: Zug zug! Dabu! Cleetok!
Eonwe Valar: Or you just make a couple of weaker Ainur take the form of a large creature, then their offspring pretty quickly become unable to incoporealize.
VardaValar1: work work
ArPharazonV: Warcraft II.
Menelvagor Valar: Warcraft I :-D
ArPharazonV: I as well?
VardaValar1: aye, orcs used "zug zug" for "work work".
Menelvagor Valar: I think so, but on retrospect, not sure.
ArPharazonV: I know it was II, at least, those quotes.
VardaValar1: Interesting, Eonwe. Might be right.
Menelvagor Valar: hmm... good point Eonwe.
VardaValar1: The ainur then leave the bodies, as they can go into a corpse to make a barrow-wight.
VardaValar1: That could explain a lot.
Eonwe Valar: That's one of Tolkien's considerations on how Orcs came to be, so it would likely work with other creatures as well. He's potentially depleting his spiritual manpower to increase his physical manpower, however.
Menelvagor Valar: haha :-)
Menelvagor Valar: uhm... is seriousity even a word?
karakedi25: seriousness
Menelvagor Valar: I figured.
Menelvagor Valar: dang... my knowledge of English was really bad back then :-)
karakedi25: actually in LotRO, there's a scene where spirits go into a dragon corpse to reanimate it.
VardaValar1: "Elrond symbolizes throughout the ancient wisdom, and his House represents Lore - the preservation in reverent memory of all tradition concerning
VardaValar1: "the good, wise, and beautiful. It is not a scene of action but of reflection. Thus
VardaValar1: "it is a place visited on the way to all deeds, or 'adventures'.
VardaValar1: "It may prove to be the direct road (as in The Hobbit); but it mya be necessary to go from there in a totally unexpected course. So
Menelvagor Valar: The Last Homely Home :-)
VardaValar1: "necessarily in The Lord of the Rings, having escaped to Elrond from the imminent pursuit of present evil, the hero departs in
VardaValar1: "a wholly new direction : to go and face it at its source."
VardaValar1: I'm thinking to work with this in our story, we would not have decided to go after the source in Angmar until after we went to see Elrond. Hard to rewrite for that at this point, but it's interesting to see how JRRT would have figured the plot.
Eonwe Valar: Well, you're going for council either way.
Eonwe Valar: *counsel
VardaValar1: Aye, Indis. It made good sense, like the way the barrow-wights operated.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe.
VardaValar1: ok, I don't remember where that reference to Glaurung/Sauron was. Doen't mean it doesn't exist.
VardaValar1: Once upon a time I would only read the H, LotR, and Sil to prevent getting the non-canon stuff stuck in my head. But now I take these risks and the memories are spread across an awful lot of books, mixed up from jumping around the references.
VardaValar1: Next step would logically be to read the whole mass in order. um, not going to happen soon I fear.
VardaValar1: and take copious notes. (one reason it's hard to be properly linear. But what does such and such say about that?)
VardaValar1: Ok, I'm going to go goof off now, game at something or other. : )
VardaValar1: clean up supper dishes
VardaValar1: Thanks for showing a Valie a good time!
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Well, that's it for me too.
Menelvagor Valar: Good night everyone, and thanks for the wonderful discussion :-)
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
karakedi25: Goodnight all
karakedi25 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript