Valar Guild

April 18, 2010 Sunday Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by:
Ar-Pharazon and Varda.

Attending: (6)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, arwenv1, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, TulkasValar61, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
    New member: Malva-(V)
        Ulmo-(Valar) offered help with LotRO raids. Help him plan by putting your interest and info on our forum under LotRO/Raids and Quests.
       Other folk who are willing to help run quests or raids are Indis-(V) and Malva-(V).
    WoW AD
    StarCraft beta
    Second Life
    Dragon Age
    "Children of Hurin"
    Christopher Tolkien: does he have an opinion on LotRO, the various movies? What would JRRT's feelings have been?
    How JRRT worked on setting up the world for the free people if they could defeat Sauron.
    Segued into: What could have gone into the sequel if JRRT had gone ahead and written "A New Shadow" as he started to.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Golden One. :-)
ArPharazonV: Been a good day today! Got 3 achievements, my last ICC pattern, and finally my bracers today in WoW
ArPharazonV: and I watched a Harry Potter movie ;-)
VardaValar1: lol - great progress plus icing on your cake!
TulkasValar61 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: We have a bunch on LotRO, but most don't seem inclined to come here much.
VardaValar1: Aiya Tulkas! :-)
TulkasValar61: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: This is one of the smallest meetings yet. Think we had one once with just two. :-)

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: New member:
VardaValar1: Malva "Headstrong" Brandybuck-(V) joined us on the 12th.
VardaValar1: We've been gaming with her for quite some time in LotRO and she decided she wanted to put her young Guardian with us.

VardaValar1: Any other member news anyone would like to mention?
ArPharazonV: I got a new Tolkien-book this week!
VardaValar1: O cool! Which one?
ArPharazonV: Children of Hurin
ArPharazonV: looks good so far, though I'm disappointed there aren't more dragon-illustrations in it :-)
VardaValar1: Nice. That's the first in a long time that's written in the style of a regular novel.
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: I don't want to toss in any spoilers, but would love to hear your comments when you're ready!
VardaValar1: We'll just have to come up with our own dragon pics.
ArPharazonV: hehe
TulkasValar61: Who is the author?
VardaValar1: Christopher Tolkien, using the notes from JRRT.
VardaValar1: The credit says JRRT.
VardaValar1: and says edited by Chris
TulkasValar61: cool
VardaValar1: Alan Lee did the illustrations.
VardaValar1: I actually blew money on a hardback. : )
ArPharazonV: I got a paperback one, from the same publisher as all my other ones, to fit in on the shelf, which it does nicely :-)
VardaValar1: That's why I usually prefer paperbacks - got hasty.
VardaValar1: AIM says Tulkas is typing.
VardaValar1: Maybe it's confused with LotRO typing.

TulkasValar61: Has Chris ever voiced an opinion on LOTRO? When you love a book, hard cover is the way to go..I own a beautiful set of Patrick Obrien's Aubrey/Maturin stories. Cost me a mint, but would definatley be one of the first things I would grab in a house fire ;-)
VardaValar1: hehehe
VardaValar1: Chris didn't like movies being made, so I would guess he wouldn't like LotRO. I don't know. He works very hard at getting all the details exact and the media have to ignore his meticulous work.
VardaValar1: Hardbacks are more durable and more likely to have illustrations.
TulkasValar61: I have to wonder if his father would have been as strict...His whole worlds brought to life in a manner he likely could not even imagined
VardaValar1: JRRT worked with the folks making the animated movie.
VardaValar1: He understood some of their problems and some of the cuts you see were his recommendations.
VardaValar1: Such as removing Bombadil, and leaving Saruman captive in his tower or stopped in some way at that point.
VardaValar1: I think he would have loved the atmosphere of the live movies. The beauty of them.
ArPharazonV: JRRT advised the removal of the Scouring?
TulkasValar61: While I own the collectors edition of the trilogy, I have not seen the animated one since when I saw it in the thatre at its release..Im guessing early 80's
VardaValar1: No, he advised cutting back Saruman.
ArPharazonV: Hmm. I considered Saruman integral to the Scouring though. It would just lose a lot of power.
VardaValar1: I picked up the taped version, and the animated Hobbit.
VardaValar1: I agree.
VardaValar1: They didn't make it to the Scouring, so it was a moot point.
ArPharazonV: true
VardaValar1: He was trying to help them find ways to squeeze it down and not wreck it.
VardaValar1: I think one major error in the live movies, maybe to make it less gruesome, is Gollum in Mt. Doom holding the Ring. He was holding Frodo's finger with the Ring, which caused his downfall.
VardaValar1: Literal on that downfall.
TulkasValar61: They didnt finish it..or there was a planned sequel that never got off the ground...I am fumbling here, have a nasty flu bug so my head isnt all that functional
VardaValar1: They didn't complete it. Finance problems.
VardaValar1: Lot of spring colds going on. Crazy up and down weather.

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: Eonwe is doing amazing things that you should enjoy seeing when they come live.
VardaValar1: Sorting, names jumping to their info on the WoW or LotRO sites, and to our Membership site.
VardaValar1: Counting by people or by what they play.
VardaValar1: He's quite a programmer. :-)
VardaValar1: I can barely do a bit of HTML and javascript, and stand in awe. : )
VardaValar1: We hope it will be more useful to the group.
VardaValar1: It will also jump to our forum section that tells our latest schemes for gaming: planned questing.
VardaValar1: I've been doing background work on the Tolkien Site, so it should be nicer. We need more input from our members on articles, poems, stories, or whatever you enjoy messing with.
VardaValar1: Phar's dragon art. : )

TulkasValar61: Earlier Indis (i think) mentioned something Ulmo wrote? Was that on Lotro forum or ours ?
VardaValar1: We learned that some people find us through the gaming site, rather than the main site.
VardaValar1: Ours.
VardaValar1: I asked him earlier about maybe leading some raids for us, as he's an old hand, about all he's been doing.
VardaValar1: He kindly put in a forum note helping us get organized.
VardaValar1: We are now in Gaming/LotRO. : )
TulkasValar61: I teamed up with him way back when I first started...His irritation at my ineptness was palpable even 100's of miles away :-[
VardaValar1: Go to Lord of the Rings Online, and then to Raids and Quests.
VardaValar1: awww : )
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya
TulkasValar61: Aiya indis
VardaValar1: Figured you be in Forges. : )
VardaValar1: Ulmo's expertise will surely help in the upper level raiding.
VardaValar1: We do need to concentrate on our mains, as you have been, Tulkas. : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Get their traits, especially the current main ones, to 10.
karakedi25: I am in the forges, but I'll attend as much as I can
VardaValar1: Work on our gear. Crafting can help a ton there, as well as instances and skirmishes.
VardaValar1: Thanks for coming. : )
VardaValar1: LotRO has been very active, I'm happy to say. : )

VardaValar1: Phar, have you seen any of the other Valarites in WoW Argent Dawn?
ArPharazonV: Hmm...
ArPharazonV: I do recall someone saying hi in the valar-channel at some point, but I can't remember who it was now ;-)
ArPharazonV: prrobably Arien
arwenv1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: I hate to see it, but AD looks in bad shape. I'm so glad you still come to these meetings!
VardaValar1: Arwen! Heya!
arwenv1: Hello :-)
ArPharazonV: Oh, I guess Menel and Arien have other things on their mind. I know Arien's very regular in here, anyway.
ArPharazonV: oh, AD? Dunno. We disbanded the branch, and I'm doing a ton of stuff in WoW that has no Valar-connection at all.
VardaValar1: You always did. : )
VardaValar1: Arien is also in LotRO.
ArPharazonV: True, but I've been... very occupied this week, working on a load of new projects, mostly some pvp
VardaValar1: Menel has a character there, but plays WoW with his girlfriend, so we never see him.
VardaValar1: Any other games played this week?

arwenv1: the star craft beta :-)
VardaValar1: O wow!
VardaValar1: If there's a friend channel in it, you folks need to make Valar and get together sometime. : )
ArPharazonV: hmm, thanks for reminding me of other games, Varda, I'll just do my weekly Guild Wars login again ;-)
VardaValar1: You're welcome, lol.

VardaValar1: I was remiss, meant to drop into Second Life and surprise Fladrif, but haven't made it.
VardaValar1: I'll catch him yet!
ArPharazonV: hmm, he's online... didn't even notice, I just invited him

VardaValar1: Dragon Age and Warhammer... 40 K I think? being played by Bilbo and Sauron.
VardaValar1: Thanks!
VardaValar1: We can let him creak the stage if he can get in, then move to Tolkien.
VardaValar1: Any luck?
ArPharazonV: He's invited, not responding. I'll pm him.
VardaValar1: He had trouble last time.

VardaValar1: For Tolkien, I thought it was interesting how JRRT worked on setting up the world for the free people if they could defeat Sauron.
VardaValar1: The travel, meeting people they would not have otherwise.
VardaValar1: The world changed for the free peoples, not the same as it was before the War.
VardaValar1: What did you folks see on how JRRT set up the peace and new world?
AriehnV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien : )
AriehnV: aiyea :-)
VardaValar1: We just moved to Tolkien. The topic is: What did you folks see on how JRRT set up the peace and new world?
VardaValar1: That's as far as we've gotten, so it's still fresh for you!
ArPharazonV: well, he's got the elder, departing races playing less of a role, in order to set things up for Men...
AriehnV: He had various races working togeether, even races that *traditionally* were enemies
AriehnV: how exactly do u mean this question, Varda? Organisatory wise or story wise?
VardaValar1: Kingdom heads changed up. New ones formed and some were gone, like the Eldar Phar mentioned.
VardaValar1: Story. Not sure what you meant on the other.
VardaValar1: What you two said was exactly what I was looking for, hoping to bring it down to specifics from the starting generalities.
ArPharazonV: even Gandalf's role was as advisor and strategist, even though he could be quite powerful in combat, he left the majority of the combat action to Men
VardaValar1: The Fellowship set off a lot of meetings of people. It was like a huge thing crossing the world and changing it.
VardaValar1: Aye, the Istari were supposed to guide the free people to learn how to handle things on their own, not rule over them as Sauron and Saruman wanted to do.
ArPharazonV: That's true. Battle followed them, the Dark Lord's people were on his trail, and there seemed to be few locations they passed that didn't feel the influence of that.
VardaValar1: When Gandalf got left pretty much on his own, and was reborn as the White, he did do some fighting and commanding as well. Lucky he didn't slip to the dark side. : )
ArPharazonV: Hobbits come to Bree? Cue Black Rider raid. Hobbits come to Lorien? Cue Orcish invasion.
VardaValar1: Aye!
ArPharazonV: *Fellowship, in that latter case
VardaValar1: The Ring was stirring up any evil thing along the way. Sauron was calling in all the evil things, waking them, setting them in place.
ArPharazonV: I seem to recall Galadriel stating that the Fellowship brought evil with them, yes. She seems to have talked not only about the Ring itself but about the dark forces that follow it.
VardaValar1: The elves whose lands depended on a Ring went down about as much as the dependence had held them.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: So Lorien, held almost completely in stasis by a Ring, and losing Galadriel as well, went down hard.
VardaValar1: Part of the people moved to southern Mirkwood.
VardaValar1: Rivendell lost Elrond and his Ring, but it was not so isolationist.
VardaValar1: Elladan and Elrohir kept it going, and Celeborn was with them for a time.
VardaValar1: What about Mirkwood?
VardaValar1: What happened to Thranduil's people? They had no Ring dependence.
ArPharazonV: Unsure. Mirkwood's Prince went over the sea, though. There could have been some Mirkwood Elves following him later, saying "Maybe it's not such a bad idea".
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure if the looking at the sea-business is part of any Elf, or in this case because Legolas was Sindarin.
VardaValar1: Thranduil's people mostly remained, probably including Thranduil.
AriehnV: they probably either would have gone to Rivendell to join the Noldor and lost kin there , gone across the see or continued living in a clansed Mirkwood
VardaValar1: They even formed a colony under Legolas in Ithilien.
AriehnV: or Lothlorien
AriehnV: aye makes sense
ArPharazonV: True. The Mirkwood Elves seemed to have a lasting influence on Middle-Earth, in various places.
VardaValar1: The Sindar were especially susceptible to the sea-longing, just fine if they didn't see it, but it they saw it, they needed to go. They were of the Teleri, the sea-elves.
ArPharazonV: And yet I don't doubt that they became more reclusive at later times. It has always been one of Tolkien's core-concepts, as far as I can see, that the Elves basically disappeared into the background as a whole.
VardaValar1: The Noldor had a low-level longing all the time, but that made them more resistant.
VardaValar1: As long as mankind was friendly with the elves, the elves would be ok. Aragorn's kingdom was friendly.
VardaValar1: Later though, that would surely change.
ArPharazonV: Even from the Book of Lost Tales, the Elves had a concept about diminishing and disappearing from the eyes of Men, and the politics of the world.
VardaValar1: The silvans tended to keep quietly back in the forest.
VardaValar1: Legolas also gave them a returned tie to the Dwarves. But both Legolas and Gimli eventually left.
ArPharazonV: Though it can be considered that the mythology, as it stands in Lotr, was no longer meant to be a precursor to our own age (though I stilll think that likely) I doubt that the Elves would long continue to play an important role after the end of the Third Age.
VardaValar1: We can assume that the friendship or cooperation between elves and dwarves would continue for a long time. Although both groups might be distant from mankind.
ArPharazonV: Not even the Mirkwoodians.
ArPharazonV: That's true, yes. After all, the same would probably go for Dwarves, as I have just said for Elves.
VardaValar1: As far as I can tell, it was definitely supposed to be our history.
ArPharazonV: Aye. But we don't see any more Elves around, do we? :-)
VardaValar1: The dwarves and ents were running out of ability to have young.
VardaValar1: The elves would be in hiding in what forests remained, and some would fade into the landscape, literally if we go with some of the oldest stories.
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure if that goes for dwarves. The male/female ratio doesn't show any signs of having been different in the past.
AriehnV: Just close your eyes and you will see them too :-)
VardaValar1: The dwarves were already in trouble.
VardaValar1: Thanks Arien. : )
VardaValar1: The ents were in serious trouble.
ArPharazonV: They, as a population, merely seemed... stable, especially after most of their enemies disappeared (dragons, balrog, Sauron, orcs).
VardaValar1: But in the time of Aragorn's kingdom, things were good for all. The hobbits were in a protected area even.
ArPharazonV: They *were* in trouble, perhaps, but probably thrived again. I'm not sure the lack of reproduction affected them any more than it had always done since their origins.
ArPharazonV: Ents, though, are a different matter, yes. They lacked the ability to reproduce entirely.
VardaValar1: The dwarves had fewer women than men, and would choose only one male, and if she couldn't have him, would not marry. And other females only wanted to craft, not marry.
ArPharazonV: Yes. I'm aware of that part. But I didn't pick up on it being any better in their ancient past.
ArPharazonV: As far as I could tell, they weren't in any more "trouble" than they probably always had been.
VardaValar1: So we may have some elves and dwarves still, and hobbits, but in hiding and in low numbers. : )
ArPharazonV: Aye.
VardaValar1: We'll have to hope that the dwarf women were willing to have lots of kids to make up for the others.
VardaValar1: I was really just shooting for the time of Aragorn's kingdom, how the LotR events set up the place at that time, but this was interesting. : )
ArPharazonV: from what I could see, single children were rare. Most groups of siblings came in 2, 3, or more.
VardaValar1: Ghan-buri-ghan's people came out of hiding and had a place of their own.
ArPharazonV: Looking at the party of Dwarves Bilbo travelled with, they mostly seemed to consist of pairs of 2.
VardaValar1: The wild men were given a part of Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: Were they? I must've missed that. I thought they remained in the forests between Rohan and Gondor.
VardaValar1: Rohan and Gondor became close again.
VardaValar1: The wild men I meant were not Ghan's people.
ArPharazonV: ah, the Beornings, perhaps?
VardaValar1: The Beornings were safe again.
VardaValar1: Aragorn's marriage to Arwen reminded men that the other races were still there, as did the visitors.
VardaValar1: Faramir had a new princedom in Ithilien.
ArPharazonV: Arnor seemed to be gaining some structure again.
VardaValar1: Eowyn claimed she was going to be a healer.
VardaValar1: Aye, Arnor was part of the Reunited Kingdom.
ArPharazonV: Cities rebuilt, lone settlements (like Bree) incorporated again
ArPharazonV: I wonder what they did with Tharbad.
VardaValar1: Aragorn did go north now and then, stopping just outside the Shire to obey his own law.
VardaValar1: Tharbad was wrecked by flooding. Probably best not to build there again.
VardaValar1: But all was not completely peaceful.
VardaValar1: Aragorn and Eomer rode out together with their armies to keep the peace.
VardaValar1: I'd imagine other allies helped as well.
ArPharazonV: From where?
VardaValar1: Some roving packs of orcs, the men that worshipped Sauron, the southerners, cults of the Blue Wizards.
ArPharazonV: I meant the allies.
ArPharazonV: What kind of allies would they have had in those battles? Would the Elves and Dwarves have taken some military action with them?
VardaValar1: Allies like elves and dwarves. Dale was a bit far, but maybe if the trouble was in their area.
VardaValar1: Can you see Gimli and Legolas not taking their people to help Aragorn in the battles?
ArPharazonV: Aye, that's true.
VardaValar1: The south was probably quite a problem. Full of lies they'd been told.
ArPharazonV: I was just wondering how much Erebor, Mirkwood, or the Shire could've helped in the south.
VardaValar1: The east ran a long way up, and the orcs could've been anywhere they found cover.
VardaValar1: JRRT said he started another book sequel, but it was turning into a "thriller" and he didn't want to do that.
VardaValar1: Even Gimli and Legolas' leave-taking to Valinor wasn't simple. They had to go completely around the south end of the continent in their boat to reach just the Grey Havens.
VardaValar1: Shall we call ithere? We seem to have covered the topic pretty much.
ArPharazonV: Ah right. The New Shadow?
VardaValar1: Aye!
VardaValar1: That was his working title.
VardaValar1: I suspect the Blue Wizards would have been prominent.
ArPharazonV: was starting to look more like a "cult"-scenario, portraying human boredom that comes from peace, if anything
ArPharazonV: if it could've had more scale, like including the Blue Wizards, yes, it might've been a nice story
VardaValar1: We silly people should enjoy making things and exploring as much as fighting!
ArPharazonV: but from what I saw, it was going in a whole other direction from his other work, and perhaps it is best that he did not work on it further
VardaValar1: A glance at our games suggests otherwise, however.
VardaValar1: Ok, raising the gavel.
VardaValar1: *bang!*
ArPharazonV: :-)

VardaValar1: After-meeting!
VardaValar1: Play, eat, sleep, and enjoy the peace we have!
VardaValar1: Namarie : )
ArPharazonV: as an afterthought, though, I liked the fact that the New Shadow, as the "last" story in the franchise, existed, but unfinished
VardaValar1: It gave us something we should be playing with, adding to maybe.
ArPharazonV: it's quite symbolic about how life goes on continously
ArPharazonV: but you can never really finish everything ;-)
VardaValar1: We're still here!
VardaValar1: I'd like to see the Free Peoples come out to my stars. : )
ArPharazonV: A wake-up call that says "It doesn't end with Lotr. Life goes on. We just can't follow it anymore."
VardaValar1: The one they have now will wear out one day, and they need to find new homes.
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: As glacially slow as we are with our space programs, it's going to take a while.
VardaValar1: I was planning on going to the moon at least as a tourist! Foot-dragging lot.
VardaValar1: Namarie folks. : )
ArPharazonV: namarie
VardaValar1 has left the room.
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
karakedi25 has left the room.
arwenv1 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending