ArPharazonV:
we don't raid, way too small for that, those of us who do raid raid
with other communities that don't require you to be guilded (though I
did throw an alt into that community's guild to get access to free
tanking flasks)
AriehnV: but my main reason to be there is that i know i can trust the members :-)
ArPharazonV: but we're always willing to help our guildmembers out if we have the time for it :-)
AriehnV: and they are friendly
AriehnV: :-)
AriehnV: I also saw that
Valandil had logged his hunter in the Valar Guild recently
AriehnV: and sent him mails to Caradhron and Orophin that i am still active and gave him the names of those three characters
AriehnV: so he can get touch if he wants
VardaValar1: Good to know Valandil is still in the guild. That puts him as a member for 2010, thanks.
AriehnV: aye he logged thursday i think
AriehnV: but i missed him
VardaValar1: Is
Helm still with us?
AriehnV: i guess you can put him on friend list
AriehnV: not raeallly a guild member
VardaValar1: We don't keep a friend list on the site.
AriehnV: ok but i wouldnt count him as guild member at the moment [
note: she later said in a side window, yes, he is still an overall guild member]
VardaValar1: Not much to guild with in Europe, I guess.
VardaValar1: He's welcome to help with the Tolkien Site or come to the AIM meetings.
AriehnV: he is not really in LJRRT with as we are , not as daft
VardaValar1: Same for any of the others.
VardaValar1: He doesn't have to be daft, just like it. : )
VardaValar1: okies, thanks.
GwaihirValar: I was afk, sorry about the silence
VardaValar1: They are all welcome in LotRO with us too. : )
VardaValar1: Welcome back, Gwaihir. : )
GwaihirValar: on the subject of gaming, I've been playing a bit of that new
League of Legends... its pretty fun, and its nice and free
VardaValar1: A plus!
VardaValar1: They are also welcome on the Forum, or to email.
VardaValar1: Gilraen still gaming any?
pallandovalar: I am here now, but am listening to vent to know if I have to alt-tab back.
VardaValar1: Good idea!
VardaValar1: Pallando, would you like to tell about
Eve during your few minutes free? : )
pallandovalar: Sure.
pallandovalar:
Pallando is ever closer to his goal of a Slepnir Command Ship, and both
he and my main have plenty of isk and I also have lots of time to help
someone who wants to join up. :-)
pallandovalar:
Dec 1st we see a new expansion that is going to make my chosen race
FOTM. I've been waiting for this for years. I am going to be playing as
much as I can.
VardaValar1: Thank you, very generous. If they will just join with you instead of against? : )
VardaValar1: What is FOTM?
pallandovalar: Now's the time to join and get while the gettings good. :-)
pallandovalar: Flavor of the Month
pallandovalar: and in particular it will improve my 2 favorite ships, the next expansion.
pallandovalar: and it's promised to change the face of the conquerable outer regions.. be a good time to get in. :-)
pallandovalar: These times they are a-changin'.
VardaValar1: hehe
pallandovalar: But yeah, happy to help anyone interested/anyone with questions.
pallandovalar: And that's it.
VardaValar1: Thanks, Pallando. : )
VardaValar1: In
WoW [
general], the Day of the Dead is going today and tomorrow.
VardaValar1: Also, be sure to merge with Battlenet before Nov 11 if you want to keep playing WoW.
ArPharazonV: and get a nice penguin pet!
VardaValar1: hehe - aye
ArPharazonV: I did it last week (or was it the week before...)
VardaValar1: The
Lothar and
Uldaman gang have been active this past week, and some are online right now.
VardaValar1: We've been running some of the Northrend dungeons and lower ones like Scarlet Monastery, and building up crafting.
VardaValar1: In
LotRO, we are getting ready for the Mirkwood expansion.
VardaValar1: Working up traits with deeds, trying to finish up the epic book quests in Volume 2, and getting geared for the high level areas.
VardaValar1: Does anyone have any more gaming or business?
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VardaValar1:
Tolkien!
VardaValar1: Did the articles suggest any topics that you'd like to consider?
VardaValar1: Power causing corruption?
VardaValar1: What Tolkien considered the "realm of Faery" to be like in Middle-earth?
VardaValar1: Or would you be more interested in the end of Arda? : )
Eonwe Valar: I haven't read those articles yet, but on the "simple" theme of
power causing corruption, my counterpoint would be Manwë :}
VardaValar1: Not a simple theme. Great counterpoint!
VardaValar1: What kept Manwe from falling to corruption with so much power?
ArPharazonV: if it wasn't simply the pureness of his nature of creation
ArPharazonV: it might be the responsibility of "leading" the struggle with his brother, who did fall into corruption
VardaValar1: How about the desire to complete Eru's vision as shown to him and the others?
VardaValar1: Morgoth wanted to control the vision, but Manwe wanted to make it come about.
VardaValar1: Since Morgoth didn't invent it, he would have to destroy it eventually, by his thinking.
VardaValar1: Yet the Valar had a huge part in bringing it to being.
VardaValar1: Each of the Valar had their own interests that they saw coming to life.
VardaValar1: but they had to work for it.
VardaValar1: Others, the Maiar, wanted to help with those things that certain Valar imagined and worked with them.
VardaValar1: Some of the Maiar had power nearly equal to the Valar (not Aratar), yet they were Maiar because they did not initiate.
VardaValar1: Morgoth did not seem to initiate, or help, just corrupt and try to take over.
AriehnV: do u think Sauron was one of those? i know that he was a firespirit like my namegiver
Eonwe Valar: He initiated the discord... :}
Eonwe Valar: No, Sauron was a Maia of Aulë.
VardaValar1: That could be seen as corrupting the music.
ArPharazonV:
It helps that the Valar and Maiar were "born" into their power, the
article seems to mostly relate on normal human(oid)s who gained their
power later in life
AriehnV: and must have been fairly power ful to be considered useful for Morgoth
VardaValar1: Aye, Sauron was one of those crafting at first, a great one, and later corrupted by the power offered by Morgoth.
VardaValar1: Morgoth lost a lot of his power giving it to minions and putting it into Arda.
ArPharazonV: indeed, Sauron's corruption came not from his own power, but by the extension of this power offered by Morgoth
AriehnV: Sauron made the same mistake witth the ring ...
ArPharazonV: not having power, but gaining power, seems to do most of the corruption
VardaValar1: Sauron, like others, was seduced by the offer of more power.
AriehnV: aye
VardaValar1: Good pointi, Phar.
VardaValar1: *point
Eonwe Valar: I would say desiring rather than gaining. Gets more to the heart of it.
VardaValar1: Aye.
ArPharazonV:
perhaps, but gaining as well, as I glanced from the article, corruption
does most of its damage when the person already has the power
VardaValar1: In the article, those people did not start with the power, but got it later.
ArPharazonV: Well yes, but the effects of their corruption is not visible until they have already gained it.
VardaValar1: Gollum got the Ring, Dorian Gray got the painting, Jekyll got the potion that turned him to Hyde.
VardaValar1: Wanting the Ring, Gollum killed to get it.
AriehnV: and got killed .. for the same reason
ArPharazonV: true, there are exceptions
VardaValar1: Gandalf and Galadriel refused the Ring, knowing the offered power would corrupt them.
AriehnV: the desire for the ring was his destruction in the en
ArPharazonV: but looking at the first piece about the one from Plato's book
VardaValar1: but they wanted it.
AriehnV: d
ArPharazonV: that was mostly about after he gained the powr
Eonwe Valar: Desire for power causes one to do anything to get it. Once they have it, there's less need for pretense.
ArPharazonV: *power
ArPharazonV: I agree, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: do both actions count as corruption?
AriehnV: indeed .. i think of the black sisterhood in the book i just finished .. its the same reallyu
Eonwe Valar: Saruman, Sauron, Melkor. What do they have in common? They were powertful beings who were not satisfied with the power they had.
AriehnV: a
shadow sister hood that longs for power destroying and killing almost
everything that the Real Wise Sisterhood stood for . , just a memory
Eonwe Valar: Both actions, Phar? desiring power and...?
AriehnV: (Book is City of Sorcery by Marion zimmer bradley as explanation)
ArPharazonV: doing anything to get power, and having less pretense after gaining power
Eonwe Valar: Well, the phrase "when you can do what you want, you will be who you are" comes to mind..
VardaValar1: It's one of the reasons you can see personality so quickly when gaming with someone you don't know in real life. : )
ArPharazonV: that implies that everyone is corrupted but are only holding back because they don't have the power not to :-)
Eonwe Valar: No, it implies that you will see a person's true nature when they percieve that they will face no consequences.
VardaValar1: What Eonwe said. : )
ArPharazonV: hmm, true, you didn't say that everyone acted so badly
Eonwe Valar: Internet anonimity being a good example.
ArPharazonV: still, those who can be corrupted start out corrupted
Eonwe Valar: Melkor didn't start out corrupted.
ArPharazonV: because that which would "corrupt" them only brings out their own selves?
VardaValar1: A weak person who could have been corrupted, given strengthening influences, can become a fine person.
ArPharazonV: hmm... let me rephrase myself before we go further into this
Eonwe Valar: ok.
VardaValar1: Melkor became corrupted, seeking out the sacred flame on his own and getting away from the presence of Eru and his brothers.
ArPharazonV:
a person who *would* be corrupted by power is implied, by that
statement, to already start out corrupted but only holding back because
he doesn't have the power not to hold back...
ArPharazonV: because whatever would corrupt him apparently only releases his true self
VardaValar1: Corruption is weakness allowed to rot.
VardaValar1: If strengthened, he has a chance to not become corrupt.
VardaValar1: But it is a moral strength, not the power Morgoth offered.
VardaValar1: They
may feel their own need for strengthening in the moral sense and think
that such power will help them, not understanding their real needs.
Eonwe Valar: Melkor became Morgoth through a series of his own choices and then an unwillingness to turn from what he had done.
VardaValar1: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: I have two quotes to share, now that I've found them..
VardaValar1: Fire when ready!
Eonwe Valar: Of
Manwë, it's said in "Of the Beginning of Days" : "Manwë has no thought
for his own honour, and is not jealous of his power, but rules all to
peace."
Eonwe Valar: The Ainulindallë has this:
Eonwe Valar: "When
therefore Earth was yet youn and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and
he said to the other Valar : 'This shall be my own kingdom; and I name
it unto myself!'
ArPharazonV: gonna go to sleep soon, so I'll leave you to it in a few minutes
VardaValar1: Opposing attitudes there. Thanks for the quotes!
Eonwe Valar: But
Manwë was the brother of melkor in the mind of Iluvatar, and he was the
chief instrument of the second theme that Iluvatar had raised up
against the discord of Melkor... And Manwë said unto Melkor: 'This
kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others
have laboured here no less than thou.'"
ArPharazonV: starts to lean to socialism
ArPharazonV: we've all worked at it, so it's shared property?
Eonwe Valar: Manwë doesn't say to Melkor "No, this is my kingdom." He points out that Melkor has no right to claim all of it as his own.
VardaValar1: Manwe points out that they all worked hard on it, gently points out that Melkor wasn't much help.
Eonwe Valar: No, it's more declaring the innate right to the fruits of one's own labour, Phar.
VardaValar1: Aye.
ArPharazonV: Hmm. Perhaps.
Eonwe Valar: Melkor wants what the others have worked on, Manwë says he has no right to it.
VardaValar1: Sounds very non-socialist for something written by an Englishman. : )
ArPharazonV:
Let's say there's similarities to both. Tolkien was always good at
staying neutral like that, appealing to followers of many philosophies.
VardaValar1: Something of a monarchist too.
Eonwe Valar: I don't know. He lays a pretty strong foundation of free will.
VardaValar1: His heroes are mostly great leaders, even Sam becomes Mayor multiple times. But all have to earn it.
ArPharazonV: Of coure he does. Free will is considered by all those same followers to be a virtue.
ArPharazonV: Its application, however....
ArPharazonV: which is another part of his genius
Eonwe Valar: Not every philosophy supports the propsition of free will was my point :}
Eonwe Valar: *proposition
ArPharazonV: most that are generally accepted, however, do
VardaValar1: Not really.
AriehnV: if i have it right in mind Melkor was busy destroyoing what the others had created
ArPharazonV: but let's not get into that
VardaValar1: Too many want absolute power in government, like Sauron.
Eonwe Valar: Melkor's philosophy was essentially "If I can'thave it, no one can."
ArPharazonV:
Sauron was a dictatorship. Dictatorships are usually only accepted by
those dictating or on the dictators' payroll. Not exactly the
"generally accepted" that I meant.
ArPharazonV: But as I said, this is way too far from the topic than I want to go.
VardaValar1: That would be the topic where you need to get some sleep before tomorrow. : )
ArPharazonV: true, I suppose
AriehnV: sounds an option >:-)
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript
VardaValar1: *bangs gavel*
top
VardaValar1:
After-meeting!
VardaValar1: Any rp mentions?
VardaValar1: Also, Turgon was wondering why people didn't use the forum more.
VardaValar1: Might want to say hi to him. :-)