VardaValar1: Just starting.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Arien. : )
VardaValar1: Phar, anything you want to mention? Did you hear from any Valarites in
ArPharazonV: well, I heard from Arien :-)
VardaValar1: That's one!
AriehnV: I have been online on my characters in the High Guard and seen Calaron :-) our Phara here
AriehnV: and i know that Mackie has been online since he is in my contact list
VardaValar1: That's Theoden, very good to know, as I'm working up the list of 2010 members.
AriehnV: but he doesnt use the valar channel anymore :-(
VardaValar1: ahh, then I should email him.
AriehnV: both the Rogue Ariehn and the younger Paladin Finduilasse are making progress
AriehnV: Ariehn is 75 and almost three quarters now
AriehnV: and Findu is 46
VardaValar1: Grats : )
VardaValar1: Is the Valar Guild branch there completely inactive now?
AriehnV: just the shadow exists and the valar guild as such is only a bank guild
VardaValar1: Ok, thanks.
VardaValar1: WoW Lothar server:
VardaValar1: We also have a bank there, but luckily are more active than Europe.
VardaValar1: This last week we've had Eonwe, his brother as a helping friend, Elwing, Fangorn, Bilbo, Sauron, and myself.
VardaValar1: The same group also played on Uldaman server
, keeping our Hordiness exercised.
moving up on the types of runs we can make as our various characters
level. I have been a slacker there, hanging out too much on LotRO.
VardaValar1: That is where most of the guild is that games. Happily, it takes gamers on both sides of the water. : )
VardaValar1: and it has Middle-earth, making it our natural stomping grounds. :-)
VardaValar1: We are setting up for the Mirkwood expansion, trying to clear out epic quests and deeds for traits.
VardaValar1: Fainan completed the last of the epic quests, finally, and thanks Eomer and Gorlim for the help on the three-man instance. : )
TulkasValar61: I'm 1/5 the way to finally getting a horse in LOTRO but man it is a slow go making money in that game:'(,
VardaValar1: We also need to be stockpiling potions, scrolls, and foods, although those seem to be getting eaten.
TulkasValar61: Pretty feebleO:-)
VardaValar1: You could probably use help with your gear, Tulkas?
VardaValar1: Be sure to use the Auction House, sell neat junk you come across. Stacks of resources that you don't need.
TulkasValar61: I am now just starting to find a couple of things Orome made for me when I was level 22
VardaValar1: Deeding can help you collect junk to vendor.
VardaValar1: Some characters make money fast, some don't.
TulkasValar61: find things to replacce the stuff orome made for me is what I intended to say :-) What exactly is deeding.. all the stuff I get on quests is
"bind on acquire"
VardaValar1: When you come back online, I'll try to give more pointers, but for now
VardaValar1: on the bottom left of your screen is an icon that shows you which deeds you are working on for traits.
VardaValar1: The traits are equipped at a Bard npc, found on the map as a lute icon.
VardaValar1: When killing monsters, junk drops, some of it is in the form of items that you can sell at the Auction House.
VardaValar1: Also, you may be able to sell critted items that you make, on the AH.
VardaValar1: It's nice to walk in, check your mail, and find money. : )
VardaValar1: You probably know most of this.
really need to work on that...crafting stuff...I think I can make a
bronze ingot so far and light leather,,but that is about it :-[
VardaValar1: Those sell well on the AH.
VardaValar1: Are you a tailor?
TulkasValar61: not yet
VardaValar1: Maybe we'd better talk in-game or on the side window. We took over the chat. : )
TulkasValar61: apologies all round
VardaValar1: No worries, usually WoW takes over the chat. Nice change. : )
VardaValar1: A quick mention of the Forum role-play game:
VardaValar1: a new post was made today. Feel free to respond, o fellow players. : )
AriehnV: my Arienwyn got to lvl 32 btw :-)
ArPharazonV: *cough* I'll try.... not tonight though
VardaValar1: Congrats fellow LotRO player!
AriehnV: how much does a horse cost?
VardaValar1: Might take a peek at the forurm though
VardaValar1: 4g 700 or is that 200 silver.
VardaValar1: Have to be level 35, so start making money now. : )
AriehnV: aye i know she has got round 400 s right now or thereabouts
VardaValar1: 1 gold = 1000 silver
VardaValar1: You're getting there.
AriehnV: :-) i read your post Varda
VardaValar1: Speedy. : )
AriehnV: but since we were posted asleep lol ic ant post
VardaValar1: I didn't understand that.
VardaValar1: Oh, Frali!
VardaValar1: He is still clutching onto the pole, we hope?
AriehnV: aye sure
VardaValar1: Might feel something tugging, like that guy hanging onto him? : )
AriehnV: he ll be cuddling his elven maid alas
VardaValar1: Do we feel up to one round of Tolkien trivia?
VardaValar1: Whoever's available for it, please say aye or an equivalent. : )
AriehnV: aye why not :-)
ArPharazonV: Started my true reread of Lotr
this week (although most of the time was spent browsing through tangents and appendices)
ArPharazonV: so maybe I know a little bit more :-)
VardaValar1: Sounds fun, Phar. Good to hear.
VardaValar1: So, three of us?
VardaValar1: Anyone else up for some Tolkien trivia
VardaValar1: Ok, Arien, Ar-Pharazon, then Varda.
VardaValar1: Arien, your question. : )
in Middle Earth did Aragorn and Arwen meet before where they pledged to
each other? .. to give a tip what i mean .. think ... a golden place
ArPharazonV: Lothlorien, aye, but I'm not sure of the exact place within Lothlorien
ArPharazonV: though I suspect it is mentioned in Lotr, and was the place where Arwen laid herself to rest
VardaValar1: That would be Caras Galadhon.
ArPharazonV: brb, fetching rotk
VardaValar1: If we got someone to crack a book, we have done well. : )
thought actually of Cerin Amroth , because when the fellow ship reaches
there Aragorn is visibly touched by the place and definitely holds
memories of spending time there with her
VardaValar1: ahh, thanks!
ArPharazonV: the place I thought of was..
ArPharazonV: yes, Cerin Amroth, it was there that she died
VardaValar1: You are right, Arien
VardaValar1: Aye, thanks Phar
fladrifv has left the room.
ArPharazonV: so while I had the location right, I just forgot the name ;-)
AriehnV: but i was not sure
ArPharazonV: still better than nothing!
VardaValar1: Best to ask a question that you know the answer to so you can tell us if we are right. : )
AriehnV: how to ask the question :-) but thought of it since i was listening to Arwen's song on you tube :-)
VardaValar1: Phar, your turn
AriehnV: aye go
VardaValar1: Nice way to think of it!
I must say good night for a short while...dinner is almost ready and I
need to clear my puter and all its associated cooling aparatus from the
ArPharazonV: Allright, who was the only one of the Ringwraiths to be named by Tolkien himself, and what was his rank among the nine?
VardaValar1: Namarie, Tulkas!
ArPharazonV: namarie, Tulkas!
VardaValar1: Khamul, 2nd
AriehnV: Namarie Tulkas
TulkasValar61 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: knew it was too easy ;-)
VardaValar1: I just happened to know it.
VardaValar1: There was a time when Valar Honors were not allowed to participate in answering.
VardaValar1: We're not reallly that great though. : )
karakedi25: in and out, guys
VardaValar1: My go
karakedi25: I'll participate when I can
VardaValar1: Hiya - good luck in the instance!
VardaValar1: What is the meaning of Legolas' name?
karakedi25: not in instance, and quest done. Turns out I'm 2 behind the guy we're helping, so less motivation
ArPharazonV: all I remember is "Greenleaf"
VardaValar1: Can anyone beat that?
karakedi25: lass is leaf, lai as in laiquendi
VardaValar1: golas is a collection of leaves, as in foliage.
fladrifv has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Welcome back
VardaValar1: The first part refers to the green of spring-time.
ArPharazonV: so his name means spring-green foliage?
VardaValar1: The idea of a fresh and good beginning.
VardaValar1: Fladrif, did you want to add a trivia question for us?
VardaValar1: Indis got the last one right. : )
VardaValar1: I just added some extra to it.
karakedi25: Should I bring up the conundrum
I had for last week?
karakedi25: I thnk it's a little inconsistency that Tolkien may have overlooked
VardaValar1: Sure, right after Flad's question or his request not to do one.
ArPharazonV: unless he's asleep and rooting again :-)
VardaValar1: He just entered, figured he might be present. But maybe not.
VardaValar1: Okies, Indis. He's not moving yet. Go ahead.
VardaValar1: He can ask his afterwards if he's around.
OK, the elves are widely known as Eru's Firstborn, even to the Ents.
However, I believe it's Gandalf who describes the Ents to Theoden as a
power that walked the world before the Elves or any other sentient
peoples. The ents are sentient, so how do we reconcile the
inconsistency. Eru in fact made the ents in response to Yavanna's plea,
so in a way, they're children of Eru as well.
karakedi25: question mark after inconsistency
VardaValar1: Elves are said to have talked to the trees and awakened them.
VardaValar1: It could be that they were the trigger to start the ents into operation, but the ents were already present?
ArPharazonV: a bit like the Dwarves perhaps, who were created in a bit of the same context as the Ents
ArPharazonV: created and brought to sleep/hibernation, until the Elves came and woke them up
difference between the Children of Eru and the others, is that Eru made
them and put them in places that the Valar did not know of, and
awakened them in his own good time.
VardaValar1: The Ents would have been creations of Yavanna, like the trees.
ArPharazonV: but describing them as a power that "walked the world" might be problematic
fladrifv has left the room.
could be, but they are described as 'walking the world before the
Elves' (or something like that), so they may not have had speech but
they were probably sentient
karakedi25: Actually Eru made the ents at Yavanna's request because she wanted the trees protected from men and dwarves.
VardaValar1: The Valar saw the other beings made by Eru as their brothers and sisters. This would not include Ents.
VardaValar1: Re-read Of Aule and Yavanna
VardaValar1: Eagles and Ents were invented in the song about the same time.
karakedi25: that's where it is
karakedi25: but the reference to their antiquity is in ltor
AriehnV: i always saw the ents as Guardian Spirits who dealt with Nature as such , especially forests and forest wildlive
karakedi25: that's possible--sub-maiar
VardaValar1: I remember the reference, aye.
VardaValar1: I kind of thought Bombadil was similar to the Ents in his origin and function.
AriehnV: aye definitely under the supremacy of Yavanne
VardaValar1: Yavanna is the one who sang up the Ents though, so the Ents cannot be Children of Eru.
karakedi25: I don't have a reference at hand, but my memory is that Eru created them at her request
VardaValar1: Ok, I'll go dig it up.
karakedi25: relayed through Manwe
VardaValar1: it's from Manwe quoting Eru:
karakedi25: It's my impression that Bombadil is more than the ents--perhaps a maia himself
the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it
will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and
the olvar, and
VardaValar1: some will dwell therein,
VardaValar1: and be held in reverence,
karakedi25: OK, that's it
VardaValar1: and their just anger shall be feared.
karakedi25: sub-maiar, sounds like
considered, given a vision by Eru Iluvatar as he did so, then told
Yavanna of what he had learned: "When the Children awake, then the
thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from
afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will
dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be
feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while
the Secondborn are young."
Then he speaks of the eagles separately of
eagles flying before the Children awake. When speaking of where the
eagles and the others will be housed, he says," "But in the forests
shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees."
VardaValar1: So the spirits from afar
would be Maia, as there is no reference that I know of to a sub-Maia.
VardaValar1: There are greater and lesser Maiar.
ArPharazonV: so the Ents would be some form of lesser Maiar?
VardaValar1: Thank you Phar. [note: meant Arien for the quote
karakedi25: perhaps lesser Maiar then
ArPharazonV: and yet they are able to multiply
VardaValar1: I agree with Arien, that it sounds like a form of Maiar.
ArPharazonV: or well, they were, before the Entwives left ;-)
VardaValar1: "some will dwell therein
VardaValar1: so some enter bodies.
karakedi25: so could Melian--no reason why Ainur cant reproduce
VardaValar1: Melian had Luthien.
VardaValar1: Thanks Indis :-)
ArPharazonV: yes, but that was with a non-Ainur
ArPharazonV: I thought the Ainur were incapable of reproducing among themselves, but apparently that's just the Valar?
VardaValar1: The Ainur don't normally reproduce. It's a special thing that happens when embodied apparently.
VardaValar1: The Ainur don't reproduce among themselves.
ArPharazonV: ah, of course.... the spirits inhabit physical, mortal bodies, and that's why they can reproduce
ArPharazonV: and when they reproduce, new Maiar come from Eru to inhabit the new Entlings?
VardaValar1: The new fea coming into the new bodies are not likely to be Ainur, so we have a new being entirely.
VardaValar1: Luthien was not a Maia.
ArPharazonV: no, but neither was her father
VardaValar1: All body stuff.
ArPharazonV: I'm talking about unions of 2 Maiar... but I guess that works also
VardaValar1: Melian and Thingol both had bodies.
VardaValar1: The ents had bodies.
VardaValar1: The new bodies would be given fea the normal way, normally. : )
ArPharazonV: hmm, hm, that's a good possibility
VardaValar1: The idea of Eonwe being the son of Manwe and Varda was dropped because such beings did not have children.
karakedi25: Anyway, I guess my conundrum is answered
karakedi25: Apologies for the digression
VardaValar1: Made a great discussion, thank you for bringing that up!
ArPharazonV: Not completely, Indis, if there was indeed a mention
ArPharazonV: that they walked the land before the Elves did
ArPharazonV: it would still contradict the statement that the spirits would only come to inhabit them *after* the Elves awakened
VardaValar1: The other thing is, was he being poetic or not?
VardaValar1: Regular trees walked after a time.
VardaValar1: I agree, that is a troublesome statement.
VardaValar1: The Sil
are not going to always agree.
VardaValar1: The Sil
was a collection of old notes that Christopher tried to put into an orderly read.
no reason Tolkien had to be completely consistent all the time--his was
a work in progress for a long long time, with multiple versions
karakedi25: yes, and the oversight may have been Christopher's
VardaValar1: What JRRT would have written as his Silmarillion
is open to endless debate. : )
VardaValar1: JRRT had so many notes and hard to read that it's astounding how well Christopher did.
VardaValar1: Paper shortage not a help. : )
karakedi25: and it was Gandalf who said it, so not too likely to be poetic under the circumstances
what JRRT would have written is an odd topic to think about, as he was
making drastic revisions even in the last years of his life
VardaValar1: Gandalf said a few things that were rather odd now and then. : )
ArPharazonV: which were not used in the published Silmarillion
karakedi25: sounds like a good speculative topic for another meeting :-)
VardaValar1: Aye, JRRT was still making revisions, not ready to die. But once something is published, like the LotR
, it is canon for us.
I'm starting to think that the Silmarillion
's power lies in the fact
that it was never established: his work is not one book, but all its
versions and developments
VardaValar1: Aye, it's like any mythology, a living, contradictory, and growing thing. : )
ArPharazonV: it is composed of not only the published tales, but also the versions in Unfinished Tales
and the History of Middle Earth
VardaValar1: Right, and more notes not yet published.
ArPharazonV: the published book is only the tip of an iceberg of fantastic literature :-)
VardaValar1: Christopher did his best to put the final version in the Sil
for us to work with. : )
karakedi25: in both senses of the word
ArPharazonV: true, Indis ;-)
also had the advantage of knowing the actual man and what he talked
about, outside the notes. What his intentions were.
if we had only known the published versions, a lot of its power would
have escaped us: I'm glad Christopher published the other material as
karakedi25: Christopher grew up with the story
ArPharazonV: *the published version of the Silmarillion
karakedi25: JRRT tested the LotR
chapters on him
karakedi25: or with him
VardaValar1: This has been a wonderful discussion and I will be very happy to put the transcript online. : )
VardaValar1: Christopher had a right to put in his own oar, in my opinion, yet was careful not to if he could.
ArPharazonV: *grin* and to think that it was all supposedly based on Bilbo's "Translations from the Elvish" or whatever it was called
AriehnV: i think so aye
karakedi25: the Sil
VardaValar1: Bilbo could mistranslate. : )
VardaValar1: Meriadoc had a lot of books out too.
actually, the Akallabeth
and other stories of the Second Age and
Numenor came from Peregrins' descendants' own research, it seems,and
not from Bilbo's book
karakedi25: Neither was a native speaker of Elven languages
ArPharazonV: they collected a lot of stories from Gondor
VardaValar1: Aye, the libraries were open to them as the king's close friends.
VardaValar1: He even had Merry and Pippin buried alongside himself.
ArPharazonV: but the Silmarillion
proper probably came from Bilbo
AriehnV: and Bilbo learned when he was already getting old , .. i guess Meriadoc picked it up when he was with the king in Gondor
AriehnV: he had access to the library there and probably Imladris too
ArPharazonV: aye, Meriadoc went to Rivendell on occasion as well
VardaValar1: Elladan and Elrohir kept Imladris open and operating, including the library.
VardaValar1: Rivendell was closer than Gondor too. : )
karakedi25: I wonder if they ever finally went West
ArPharazonV: so it was :-)
ArPharazonV: and Celeborn was there for a time as well, he might have shared some lore from the First Age
VardaValar1: True about Celeborn. He most likely did a lot of reminiscing in Rivendell, hopefully wrote a lot of it.
karakedi25: very likely
VardaValar1: It's not really likely that the twins went West, despite fanfiction to the contrary.
ArPharazonV: their fate was probably sealed as much as Arwen's, though under different conditions
karakedi25: presumably they had the option
VardaValar1: The children of Elrond were supposed to make their choice by going with him when he left. They did not go.
VardaValar1: Aye, they had the option, but didn't take it.
karakedi25: thus ultimately being mortal
VardaValar1: Aye, very long-lived, but mortal.
karakedi25: a lot of sadness in the ending of the Third Age, indeed
and Legolas left on their grey ship, but did not go instantly to
Valinor. They sailed around the coast and had *gasp* adventures.
karakedi25: heartbreaking for Elrond
VardaValar1: Fan fic needs to notice that set of story possibilities. : )
AriehnV: but also the beginning of a new era
VardaValar1: Eomer rode with Aragorn in the many small wars.
karakedi25: Even Tolkien became discouraged when he thought about the time after Aragorn and possibly Eldarion, though
VardaValar1: Legolas and Gimli most likely went along on those at times also.
karakedi25: (forgot the name of the unfinished story))
ArPharazonV: Even before his kingship, Aragorn had travelled far and seen many wars... too much room for fanfiction ;-)
VardaValar1: JRRT said the story was turning into just an action/adventure story, not enough for him.
karakedi25: also that people were becoming orcish in their thinking
VardaValar1: Fan fiction allows an expansion of the mythology, but should look at the body of work that it goes into.
karakedi25: I've read some rather good fan fiction
VardaValar1: Same. We've published some of it. : )
karakedi25: (the reference to becoming orcish may have been in his letters)
VardaValar1: It's been a meeting of over two hours, shall we call it now?
karakedi25: good meeting though
karakedi25: fun tolkien section
VardaValar1: Free chat. Tolkien chat may continue, and Europe can sleep if they can make it away from their keyboards while conscious.
AriehnV: :-) thanks folks aye
VardaValar1: Namarie, good friends!
AriehnV: Namarie all :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Think I'll go hunt the wild microwave oven.
ArPharazonV: I'll save and send and go sleep
VardaValar1: Thank you for your zillions of transcripts, Phar!
karakedi25: happy hunting
VardaValar1: *stalks microwave*
karakedi25: *gathers focus*
ArPharazonV: don't mention it, it's but a small effort every time
VardaValar1: It is an effort, and I truly appreciate your fair copies. Mine are a mess. : )
ArPharazonV: oh, I could have timestamps, but chose not to :-)
VardaValar1: I can't seem to turn them off.