Valar Guild

May 17, 2009 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00?)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (8)
    ArPharazonV, arwenv1, Eonwe Valar (presiding), FladrifV, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, luthienathariel, pallandovalar/orodrethV/oessala, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    Today is Eonwe's birthday
    Games page
    Tolkien Site: Stories
    Gnostic lectures
    Department of Defense blocks our web page
    Eve Online
    Fladrif's topic: the world of Middle-earth started with melodies
    Forum RP

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: fishing for Pinchy, hang on :-)
VardaValar1: No worries
ArPharazonV: but yeah, raid ended half an hour early and I'd already done 25 dailies today
ArPharazonV: so thought I'd get some achievement-fishing in
VardaValar1: Fun :-)
VardaValar1: I just started a Death Knight, playing with the Eye, noticed the time and came here.
ArPharazonV: :-)
ArPharazonV: sharing the place with an orc and a human though... not so good
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: afk
VardaValar1: /afk
ArPharazonV: think Ivé got an understanding with the human, but the orc... fishing in my circles..
ArPharazonV: with only 3 casts per circle that's not really efficient
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
arwenv1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya
FladrifV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya all 3
FladrifV: Aiya
FladrifV: Aiya all 5
ArPharazonV: yourself as well? :-)
FladrifV: ...its a good habit to greet yourself....
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: aiya
FladrifV: whether or not habbit is with one or 2 b
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: 1
ArPharazonV: the one with 2 bs is spelled with an o
karakedi25: (need to run out of instance and turn in, and then can be with you)
Eonwe Valar: Heya Indis.
karakedi25: *waves*
pallandovalar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Pallando.
ArPharazonV: Aiya Pallando
Eonwe Valar: We'll give it a couple more minutes then begin.
VardaValar1: back
Eonwe Valar: Welcome back :}
ArPharazonV: allright, will quit my Pinchy-fishing for today and log out
VardaValar1: Aiya Arwen, Eonwe, Fladrif, Indis, and Pallando :-)
ArPharazonV: ooh, alphabetized too
orodrethV has entered the room.
oessala has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: and here we have the other 2 pallandos
pallandovalar: Aiya me.
orodrethV: Aiya.
oessala: aiya.
pallandovalar: I'll stop now.
pallandovalar: Hey, I'm not the one who invites them!
ArPharazonV: eh, schizophrenic conversations always liven op a chatroom
pallandovalar: /me looks at Varda
ArPharazonV: *up
VardaValar1: /me looks back at the Pallando's with a grin.
orodrethV: So that's it, eh? We're just cheap entertainment?
VardaValar1: Only if Pallando says so.
oessala: Is that all we're good for?
Eonwe Valar: Dance puppet! :}
VardaValar1: Meeting padding?
pallandovalar: Get up, get on up
orodrethV: get up, get on up
oessala: and dance!
ArPharazonV: if one starts calling himself Smeagol and another Gollum....
arwenv1: run for the hills!
pallandovalar: I can't believe I just did that. I'm going to go run myself over with a car.
Eonwe Valar: I'd worry more if one starts callign himself Slinker and the other Stinker, because then there's Sam in there somewhere too, and that'd be weird.
VardaValar1: Rather you didn't, Pal :-)
VardaValar1: Invitations completed, got a saved window working.
Eonwe Valar: OK guys, let's begin the meeting.
ArPharazonV: it's allright, Varda, there's 3 of him, so if one of them goes to jail for running over the second there's still one left
karakedi25: just hide your lembas from both of them
VardaValar1: Gollum wasn't too fond of lembas.
karakedi25: yes, but he destroyed it while they were in Mordor, making them starve faster
pallandovalar: Yes, but which one? We're not all as nice as the other.
VardaValar1: Eonwe will be chairing tonight. No particular reason, we just play musical chairs. : )
orodrethV: He's a right jerk, you know.
VardaValar1: Power ploy.
luthienathariel has entered the room.
VardaValar1: by Gollum I mean. : )
Eonwe Valar: He destroyed the lembas in the movie, not in the book :}
VardaValar1: Luthien! Suilad! Going to brave the gamer talk? : )
karakedi25: I thought he did in the book too
luthienathariel: suilad ..
ArPharazonV: I don't think so...
ArPharazonV: Aiya Luthien
Eonwe Valar: No. Sam was there to guard it if he tried :}
karakedi25: I'll check when I get a chance
luthienathariel: the Tree told me it was web time first ;-)
VardaValar1: They hurt him to touch.
VardaValar1: True, Web comes before gaming.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's get the meeting moving :}
VardaValar1: Eonwe will be chairing, haven't quite started.
FladrifV: see you cant turst an old ent
FladrifV: eh trust
luthienathariel: :-)

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Now we have :}
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
VardaValar1: /cheer
Eonwe Valar: We're here :} Congrats :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other membership news?
pallandovalar: I actually made it on time?
VardaValar1: That is news. : )
FladrifV: Im not treeish for a moment
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Grats, Pallando and Flad! : )
ArPharazonV: hehe
Eonwe Valar: If there's no more member news,..

Eonwe Valar: Web News:
Eonwe Valar: Things are coming along in getting the Games Page back in working order on the new server.
VardaValar1: (We have no idea when Alatar will switch us to the new server.)

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien Site / Stories:
Eonwe Valar: "Cell Number Eight" by Cassia-(T) and Siobhan-(T). Art and part of the poetry by Cassia-(T).
Eonwe Valar: Any other Web news?
luthienathariel: yes - I may have one
VardaValar1: The sequel to that is partly up, but the webwork isn't complete, so it's hard to read.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Varda.

Eonwe Valar: Go ahead, Luthien.
luthienathariel: there's a series of three lectures on "J.R.R. Tolkien: An Imaginative Life" on
luthienathariel: if anyone's interested ...
luthienathariel: :-)
luthienathariel: that's all ...
VardaValar1: Thanks, Luthien.
luthienathariel: yw
Eonwe Valar: Thanks, Luthien.
luthienathariel: yw2'
karakedi25: bringing it up now to look at

Eonwe Valar: Pallando has brought something,... interesting, to our attention.
Eonwe Valar: Apparently our web pages can't be accessed from DoD internet connections.
Eonwe Valar: DoD = Department of Defense, The US government.
VardaValar1: Is there any chance of finding out why?
pallandovalar: Yeah, right.
Eonwe Valar: I'm curious how long it's been that way.
ArPharazonV: fantasy is considered a threat to the US government *nod*
Eonwe Valar: Maybe someone just doesn't like Tolkien? :}
pallandovalar: I'm sure we're on some list somewhere with the "gaming" or "recreational" tag or something.
karakedi25: USG organizations often block sites that they think might either be illegal (not you) or distract employees from work
karakedi25: gaming would be a likely one
luthienathariel: it's probably an unamerican activity - JRR being a brit ....
pallandovalar: But I find it highly amusing that we're on that list and maddox and *facebook* arn't.
pallandovalar: Tomorrow I should see if 4chan is..
VardaValar1: Just our stories and things could distract people from working.
ArPharazonV: how about armorgames? :-)
pallandovalar: armorgames is. :-(
ArPharazonV: aww
VardaValar1: Any site nearly would be distracting for reading, wouldn't it?
pallandovalar: I've had to go to some out-of-the-way sites to waste tim-er, I never would even try that.
Eonwe Valar: Wonder if they block w3schools and now,... :}
pallandovalar: Hey, I could waste time productively. I'll check tomorrow.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
FladrifV: oh I do have some news aswell
VardaValar1: Thank you. Maybe we could get unblocked if we understood the problem
VardaValar1: Some European countries blocked us for the word, Members. : )
Eonwe Valar: w3schools is barely useful, but is a great resource for php., so I imagine government IT guys getting annoyed if they needed a quick reference.
Eonwe Valar: That's odd too, getting blocked for the word "Members" :}
Eonwe Valar: Considering it's hard to have a group that doesn't have "Members" :}
VardaValar1: It blocked a lot of organizations.
VardaValar1: Only our front page showed up!
karakedi25: someone was truly mindless
luthienathariel has left the room.
VardaValar1: So I'm wondering if it's some word like that causing the US block, that we could repair.
pallandovalar: Eonwe: blocking is nothing. DoD has issued a "you can no longer use flash drives" directive around 6mo ago. Yay burning CDs for one-time-use.
Eonwe Valar: heh
pallandovalar: Varda: Like I said, I'm sure it's just because we're listed somewhere as a "gaming" site.
VardaValar1: Afraid people will swipe "secrets" on their flash drives?
VardaValar1: Gaming is a word on our front page.
pallandovalar: People lose flashdrives with classified info and so on..
VardaValar1: and CD's with classified info.
VardaValar1: Leaks are Us.
Eonwe Valar: Some people lose papers with classified info,... :}
FladrifV: no it probably has to do with that flash drive virus of lately
pallandovalar: On the other hand, my school here practically ran on flash drives, and ipods were an integral part of the experience. Both nixed, basically. It's stupid.
FladrifV: we have the same policy curently within our company
pallandovalar: Eonwe: Don't use that logic stuff on the USG. It'll just hurt.
VardaValar1: Couldn't they rig a scan for the viruses for when the plug-in is detected?
pallandovalar: Hurt your brain. I mean.
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: Logic is for Vulcans?
ArPharazonV: the US government sneers at logic, hmm...
VardaValar1: No one else may join that club.
VardaValar1: Arwen slipped away to slow-cook barbecue. : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Well, thanks for bringing this to our attention Pallando :}
Eonwe Valar: Let us know how those other checks go :}
VardaValar1: So the better our tech gets, the less we may use it?
pallandovalar: As a card carrying employee of the USG for just about a year now, I can vouch that logic and it, and particularly logic and DOD have nothing to do with each other.
pallandovalar: Will do.
VardaValar1: heheh Pallando. We believe you.
Eonwe Valar: Vote for logic :}
VardaValar1: Maybe we could at least rig it so you can get into the Tolkien Site or News.
karakedi25: The State Department has banned personal thumb drives for some time. It's more to do with what it might bring in than what it might take out.

Eonwe Valar: Fladrif has some Web news.
pallandovalar: I can jsut do that when I'm in my room.
FladrifV: aye for the older people here
VardaValar1: We have separate News pages for each part of the Tolkien Site.
FladrifV: atleast here in sweden its over 21
FladrifV: I found a supplier of mead
FladrifV: or as its called here mjöd
VardaValar1: Come to the SCA where people make mead. : )
ArPharazonV: hm, mead...
karakedi25 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: It's over 21 in the USA as well.
FladrifV: I have tested quite a few self made and
ArPharazonV: I drank mead when I was at the interactive archaeological open-air museum called Archeon not too far away here in the Netherlands....
FladrifV: well dont know like a little more steady brew
ArPharazonV: it wasn't bad
VardaValar1: I've been over 21 for a while now.
Eonwe Valar: Lies :}
ArPharazonV: 3 years over myself ;-)
VardaValar1: Only problem is I don't drink.
VardaValar1: Old Man Phar. : )
FladrifV: that is not a problem
FladrifV: its easy to share with you then varda
ArPharazonV: I usually don't drink either, but on very special occasions for very appealing drinks I don't mind tasting it....

Eonwe Valar: Any other Web news?
VardaValar1: That I'm grievously backlogged in the Stories site, and in need of much more on the Articles section. : )
Eonwe Valar: Ok, you heard Varda :} Get working on Articles everyone :}
Eonwe Valar: After the meeting :}
Eonwe Valar: Stay here for the meeting :}
FladrifV: *started running already*
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: don't be hasty, Flad!
karakedi25 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Make sure your character has something reasonable in the Site, and either write or request articles on him/her.
karakedi25: um...did I get kicked out of something?
ArPharazonV: welcome back Indis
ArPharazonV: 't wasn't me!
VardaValar1: You may have accidentally hit a wrong button, common problem.
Eonwe Valar: Sometimes AIM disconnects people randomly.
karakedi25: could well have happened, either one

Eonwe Valar: World of Warcraft:
Eonwe Valar: This might be of particular interest to Mountain Dew drinkers in the United States...
VardaValar1: All males in my household.
Eonwe Valar: On June 15th, there are two limited edition flavors of Mountain Dew Game Fuel coming to stores in the USA. I'm sure you can guess what they are from where this news is appearing.
Eonwe Valar: Alliance Blue and Horde Red.
VardaValar1: lol
Eonwe Valar: Alliance is supposed to be a Wild Berry flavor, and Horde will be a cherryish flavor.
VardaValar1: Horde wins again!
VardaValar1: Actually, Mountain Dew is a lemon-lime drink. If they could make it more limey or more lemony, that would be nicer.
pallandovalar: ..there's going to be a point, some decades down the road, which historians will use every wow-related thing as "this is where you could see the end coming even then..".
Eonwe Valar: That would be, but they're busy exploring other flavors, hehe :}
VardaValar1: Wonder how WoW got them to do that.
VardaValar1: lol Pallando!
pallandovalar: /me sees the end
Eonwe Valar: Probably Mountain Dew came to Blizzard to ride the money train.
VardaValar1: Arda Reborn!
Eonwe Valar: Mountain Dew also put out the Halo 3 Game Fuel a few years ago.
Eonwe Valar: As they infomercials say though,... "But wait, there's more!"
VardaValar1: /smackhead
Eonwe Valar: If you go to the Mountain Dew site and register, you get an in-game WoW companion.
Eonwe Valar: Get other people to register, and you get "coins" that are supposed to be good for something.
VardaValar1: Ok, who has the url? : )
ArPharazonV: that free?
Eonwe Valar: And supposedly, someone wins something every 15 minutes :}
Eonwe Valar: It is free so far as I can tell :}
oessala: Pallando's raving about the end of the world now. Mentioned something about a fallout shelter. We're kind of worried, but it'll pass over, hopefully.
ArPharazonV: so what's the catch?
VardaValar1: That you have just gone through their ads and have to get on WoW.
VardaValar1: Advertising stunt
ArPharazonV: sounds interesting
ArPharazonV: is it US only?
Eonwe Valar: "You could enter to win a variety of great prizes every 15 minutes, plus an Alienware Notebook or a trip to Blizzcon 2009!!"
arwenv1: yes
Eonwe Valar: It is US only, aye.
arwenv1: US only as far as I know
ArPharazonV: aww...
ArPharazonV: no new pet for me
VardaValar1: What is their problem!
Eonwe Valar: The web site appears to be:
ArPharazonV: ...I knew there was a catch :-(
Eonwe Valar: Now that you all know about it and have the link, here's another interesting piece of news:
Eonwe Valar: It seems Arthas: Rise of the Lich King made it onto the NY Times best Seller list.
Eonwe Valar: Seems there's less excitement about that :}
VardaValar1: lol
Eonwe Valar: Ok, on the gaming front in WoW:
ArPharazonV: oh, that's the booklet, right?
Eonwe Valar: That's a book :}
ArPharazonV: right, right
VardaValar1: WoW people read! Very good to hear. : )
VardaValar1: /duck
Eonwe Valar: Blizzard can get people to do anything it seems, from buying Dell to buying Mountain Dew to reading :}
VardaValar1: to chasing them to LotRO! /re-duck
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Lothar server:
Eonwe Valar: Crusader Auros is exalted with the Oracles now, and Kalasul my Holy Priest is halfway to 72.
Eonwe Valar: Uldaman server: Seems we've been busily stocking our bank tab there :}
ArPharazonV: Crusader, hm? :-)
ArPharazonV: finished with the Tournament as well, then?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I got the Crusader title last week :}
VardaValar1: Also working hard on the next tab and crafts.
VardaValar1: and leveling, etc. Group of Valarites on Uldaman server right now.
Eonwe Valar: I'd popped in on Uldaman earlier in the week, saw Sauron and Fangorn working at getting Sauron plenty of Thorium for his blacksmithing :}
Eonwe Valar: Oh, they are reducing the cost of the Argent Hippogryph from 250 to 150 Champion's Seals. Means I can buy mine as soon as the change goes through :}
VardaValar1: Grats!
VardaValar1: Seems like they are making a lot of things easier.
ArPharazonV: *nod* same, I'm on 145 seals after today :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, they plan on sticking more items in the vendors for Champion's Seals, that'll probably be worth alot more.
Eonwe Valar: Considering that you can only get 5 Champion's Seals a day right now, 250 is a big much for a *mere* epic flying mount.
VardaValar1: (Mt. Dew wants a lot from us. Our real address, a registration, drag more people onto their site for tokens.)
Eonwe Valar: *big much = bit much
ArPharazonV: hmm, that means I've been at it for 29 days....
Eonwe Valar: Any other WoW news before we move to LotRO news?
ArPharazonV: I got Crusader too, last monday ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
ArPharazonV: I'm also starting my leatherworking again, at 441 skill now
Eonwe Valar: When I start moving Urion up the levels again, he's going to have alot of Northrend leather and nothing to do with it...Besides send to Elwing or put on the AH :}
VardaValar1: We have a couple of leatherworkers. Bank some of it?
Eonwe Valar: Would have to make room for it :}
Eonwe Valar: I think Fangorn's leatherworker is in Northrend as well, so he could probably use some of it.
Eonwe Valar: Good luck on getting those last 9 levels, Phar :} Those are the tough ones :}
Eonwe Valar: *9 points, rather :}
ArPharazonV: yep, I know
ArPharazonV: I'm also collecting arctic furs to get the last patterns from the vendor in Dalaran at this point
ArPharazonV: 3 patterns to go
Eonwe Valar: Good luck :}
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: I know we've had alot going on here. Think we had two turtle runs minimum this week?
VardaValar1: Only one Turtle run can be done in a week, resets Thursday. We run them on Monday.
Eonwe Valar: ok
Eonwe Valar: Ah that's right, LotRO has raid timers just like WoW.
VardaValar1: I didn't put up the loot pile we got last run
karakedi25: count me in if I'm back in time tomorrow
karakedi25: (flying home from California tomorrow, probably home by 8 or so EDT)
Eonwe Valar: Travel safely :}
VardaValar1: 1st Age Guardian Great Axe, two radiance coins, 2nd Age Guardian Spear, Javelin of Filikul.
karakedi25: thanks
Eonwe Valar: Cool :}
VardaValar1: If you're feeling up to the run and there's an open spot, you'd be most welcome. : )
VardaValar1: We've been adding more folk to the friend channel, some will probably join if only with an alt or overall, and some may join completely.
VardaValar1: In any case, more to game with. : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
karakedi25: I haven't seen a signup for it on the forum
VardaValar1: We've also been doing a number of heavy-duty book runs.
karakedi25: is there a place they're announced?
VardaValar1: Would you sign-up as a stand-by? No one has been signing up when I put it on the forum.
VardaValar1: LotRO: raids and quests
karakedi25: yes, I don't see anything new there
VardaValar1: It's an every Monday run, the turtle.
VardaValar1: I can put it up, if you think it would be any help. Seemed pretty ignored so far.
karakedi25: (btw, what's the name of the friend channel. I'd like to get my minstrel Isaniel on it)_
VardaValar1: Every Monday around 8:30 pm EDT
karakedi25: then there's no way to sign up in advance?
VardaValar1: I'll whisper it to you
VardaValar1: I will put it up for you to sign up, give me a sec
Eonwe Valar: Other Gaming News:
Eonwe Valar: Fladrif has some :}
FladrifV: As usual,
FladrifV: I made some progress with my tournament
FladrifV: I finished the first rounds as first
FladrifV: still one game in progress but that one is invain,
FladrifV: nothing can stop an ent *grin*
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
FladrifV: oh for all outsiders Im talking about chess
Eonwe Valar: Glad to hear you're doing well in the tourney :}
karakedi25: outsiders?
FladrifV: if I only make it to the finals now
karakedi25: good luck
FladrifV: uhm I ment people that where not that well informed
Eonwe Valar: I assume he means those who didn't already know he was in a chess tourney :}
FladrifV: aye
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
Eonwe Valar: Guess not :}

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: Does anyone have a Tolkien topic they'd like to discuss, or shall we go straight to the RP?
FladrifV: well
VardaValar1: I'd most prefer Tolkien discussion, but if we need to talk rp, we can do that.
FladrifV: mabye
ArPharazonV: if we're going for Tolkien, we might want to bring in Luthien again
FladrifV: I had something in mind
VardaValar1: Luthien is welcome anytime. I doubt she would be interested in the rp talk.
FladrifV: may I tell my idea for discussion?
pallandovalar: No one has contacted me in Eve! Still have oodles of money to give to people, too. :-)
ArPharazonV: exactly, which is why said if we're going for Tolkien discussion
Eonwe Valar: If we have a Tolkien topic, we can certainly discuss that :}
pallandovalar: nothing other than that fro me, sorry.
pallandovalar: whooops, didn't hit enter I guess.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Pallando :}
Eonwe Valar: q
VardaValar1: Pallando, thought you were lost in space. Did you ever get set up again?
Eonwe Valar: I'd hoped all the RP contributors would be here for the RP chat, but seems we're short both Arien and Menelvagor.
FladrifV: *senses he is beeing ignored*
Eonwe Valar: No, I was getting ready to call on you Fladrif :}
FladrifV: *grin* sorry for me being a bit hasty today
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead with your topic :}
FladrifV: it will be loosely related to the links luth gave
karakedi25: We'll start calling you Quickbeam, you know ;-)
FladrifV: the world of middle earth started with melodies
FladrifV: notes and eventually a song
FladrifV: do we see any paralels with this and other myths of how the world is / was formed
FladrifV: for example the northen myths starts of with a deepfrozen cow
Eonwe Valar: Speaking of Luthien, did anyone send her an invite? ;}
ArPharazonV: I have now
VardaValar1: Flad, would you like to be our official Luthien caller? )
FladrifV: I will
VardaValar1: We tend to block people by sending several invites at once.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
FladrifV: *ringing*
pallandovalar: I was never /lost/ in space.. I felt like all of my stuff was lost, for sure. but yeah, I'm back up and running.
FladrifV: side note, tolkiens vision fits nicely within the string theory
VardaValar1: Just trying to find a way to say it. Floating in space with nothing.
luthienathariel has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiyata :-)
VardaValar1: So Flad, you want to compare creation myths, not talk about music across the various mythologies?
luthienathariel: Aur vaer :-)
VardaValar1: Hail
FladrifV: aye
FladrifV: the first one
VardaValar1: Is it a comparison, or just telling them? : )
FladrifV: does any one know how the greeks started?
FladrifV: its for my part very interesting by just telling
ArPharazonV: I remember something about Gaia and Thetis...
ArPharazonV: or is it Tethis...
VardaValar1: Can we relate these stories to Tolkien at all?
FladrifV: is that nesesarely?
VardaValar1: He was trying to set up a mythology for England, as other countries had their own but England did not, sort of lost.
VardaValar1: This happens to be a Tolkien fan club, so it would be nice to have some slight relation to Tolkien. : )
ArPharazonV: ahh, Chaos, it started with Chaos...
karakedi25: England's original one would have been Nordic, as can be seen in Beowulf, but it got overlaid by Christianity
FladrifV: and zeus was born out of chaos?
VardaValar1: No
Eonwe Valar: Chronus was the father of Zeus and the other Greek gods.
ArPharazonV: zeus was the son of Chronus.... there was some story there with eating his own children etc...
Eonwe Valar: Obviously the Valar are not the Greek Gods :}
Eonwe Valar: And Eru is not Chronus :}
FladrifV: they shared the same point, the start of everything
Eonwe Valar: There's no equivalent to the Titans in Tolkien's mythos.
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ArPharazonV: oh my....
ArPharazonV: there he goes again
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pallandovalar: Well, Greek creation myths are pretty varied.
pallandovalar: Depends on who you ask.
pallandovalar: You have to realize that just about every town had its own local variations.
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ArPharazonV: so far it seems Chaos -> Gaia and Uranus -> Titans including Chronus -> Zeus
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ArPharazonV: there seems to be a tiered descendancy here which can't really be compared to Eru and the Valar
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FladrifV: tolkien does not really explain the birth of the master gods
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ArPharazonV: Eru created the Valar and from there everything else...
VardaValar1: As in how Eru made them?
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ArPharazonV: unless he's talking about the birth of Eru himself...?
ArPharazonV: but every story must have a beginning state from which something can be created
VardaValar1: Eru was not a made or born being.
VardaValar1: Chaos was the beginning for some, out of which came something.
ArPharazonV: what was the origin of Eru? or of Chaos? or of the frozen cow for that matter?
VardaValar1: But no one asks where Chaos comes from.
VardaValar1: Eru had no beginning.
karakedi25: similar to the Bible, Eru just was
ArPharazonV: "turtles all the way down"
karakedi25: hehe
VardaValar1: Aye, Tolkien was Catholic, and based Eru on the Christian God.
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: actually a fitting analogy
pallandovalar: I don't have my copy of the Theogony here, but from what I recall it went Chaos -> Eros/Gaia/Uranus/a whole host of other stuff like Nyx -> Gaia/Chronos -> titans -> olympians
karakedi25: yes, the parallels are very clear pretty much all through the creation story, mutatis mutandis
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pallandovalar: of course aphrodite was actually not a child, as gets real wierd and confusing, even if you just go by the theogony. Kids marriny parents and siblings and children..which does explain the insanity and schizoprenia of the olympians, I guess.
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ArPharazonV: have to wonder why half of them weren't born with 11 toes
FladrifV: hehe interesting thought
VardaValar1: Eonwe can't invite himself in, I can't invite him in. Just like before he upgraded.
FladrifV: use
FladrifV: saying it once more :-)
VardaValar1: I actually downloaded that, have to remember to pull it up.
ArPharazonV: I think we're all using various versions of AIM, but only Eonwe seems to have the issue
ArPharazonV: makes me wonder if it's client-side only
ArPharazonV: if it's just him, and whether settings on the pc that have little to do with AIM are causing the problem
ArPharazonV: has he tried it from another computer?
VardaValar1: His brother has a computer in his room. Dracxil.
VardaValar1: He seems to stay on fine for a while, then kerblooey.
VardaValar1: I gave him your suggestions.
VardaValar1: So we know of Chaos as something that seemed without beginning. Any others?
FladrifV: chaos is a nice start though
FladrifV: it is vital for every beginning, from a noncondition towards a growings structure
FladrifV: its maybe because we always seek structure and order
pallandovalar: I can't think of any more parallels besides the general "there's a god for the earth" with greek mythology.
VardaValar1: Generally we see things tending towards chaos, rather than chaos tending towards order, but there might be pockets of disorderly order in it? :-)
ArPharazonV: *grin* entropy
karakedi25: actually isn't nature a process of anabolism (order/information) and catabolism (entropy, disorder) more or less in balance?
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ArPharazonV: hmmm... I learned the theory behind it earlier this year but it was all a bit confusing...
karakedi25: information theory
karakedi25: not as in IT, but Shannon et al
karakedi25: really good clear book about it called Grammatical Man (forget the author, read it years ago)
ArPharazonV: but it's something about order desintegrating into disorder without input from external effort, which takes energy from elsewhere meaning there's disorder forming there...
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ArPharazonV: and in total, order decreasing in the universe
pallandovalar: Thermodynamics teaches us that entropy wins.
ArPharazonV: that's very basic, and probably wrong in every way
ArPharazonV: but it works as an analogy
ArPharazonV: aye, thermodynamics
FladrifV: seems to get more and more stable
ArPharazonV: the course was called Physical Chemistry 1, and the first part was about thermodynamics
FladrifV: wonder what is inside the stable black hole though
karakedi25: systems with information (in the broad sense) have both processes.
pallandovalar: Fladrif: that's because a lower energy state is..well, a lower energy state. Everything tends to it. It's more stable.
pallandovalar: However, order is composed of things in high energy states.
ArPharazonV: right, right
ArPharazonV: ...something like that, it was
VardaValar1: I took PChem as well. : )
ArPharazonV: we tend to believe in structure and complexity because life is a very complex feature and seems to have grown complexer over time, but life is in fact a very unstable concept which requires a lot of input of energy just to remain in its current state
ArPharazonV: I suppose the same goes for civilization
pallandovalar: For a really, really simplistic anaoloy take a couple of building blocks. Build a tower. Knock it down. Easy. Now try and put it back together again. Takes more work.
FladrifV: but
FladrifV: if you wait 10000 years, you will have sand
pallandovalar: You can go through and calculate how much energy it takes to kock one block out as oposed to lifting 5 or whatever, but you might as well do that on a better example at that point. ;-)
VardaValar1: Guys, I declare this whole thing After-meeting, as it has nothing to do with Tolkien. : )
karakedi25: *wonders how she can connect this very interesting discussion with Tolkien*
pallandovalar: I have no idea, I was just chiming in on something that interests me.
ArPharazonV: as long as we're in aftermeeting, anyone watched the European Song Contest/Festival finals yesterday? :-)
FladrifV: ok I have to admit the only link was it was written
ArPharazonV: but if Fladrif can connect us back, let's try that
FladrifV: actually varda made the vital part, tolkien was a christian
FladrifV: that ends the search for connectivity
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pallandovalar: Luthien, where in cali were you?
ArPharazonV: Tolkien's mythology has integrated concepts of monotheism and polytheism, something I quite appreciate
ArPharazonV: one God creating and ruling over a pantheon which seems on equal footing with for example the Greek or Norse pantheons
ArPharazonV: looking at power and influence, I mean
VardaValar1: In Christianity, one god had angels and powers that he created and was over, and created Man. This is very close to the idea with Eru, the Ainur, and the created folk.
pallandovalar: Well, at least in the Greek pantheon, you need to realize that most things (esp. earth/sky/sun) were actually deities, vs Tolkien having them be objects and the gods just forces.
VardaValar1: other created folk.
VardaValar1: The Ainur saw the elves and men as their younger brothers.
pallandovalar: Important distinction, imo.
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VardaValar1: The sun in Tolkien was an object shaped by the Ainur with an Ainu steerswoman.
ArPharazonV: true, Varda, but the angels and powers of Christianity do not govern the world with such divided elemental power as the Valar, who in that aspect resemble more the classical pantheons
VardaValar1: Now you are getting more detailed. : )
ArPharazonV: there's not one leading angel who rules the skies with storms and lightnings *grin*
VardaValar1: I will not get into the Angel of the Air. : )
ArPharazonV: granted, there might be, but then I haven't heard of him myself
VardaValar1: Not in line with our topic, doesn't matter.
ArPharazonV: same goes for water, earth and crafts... there might be an angel of death....
ArPharazonV: *shrug* you're right
VardaValar1: Main thing is we can see a lot of bits of other mythology going into Tolkien's stories, including an improved version of pantheons.
VardaValar1: There is a sacred mountain.
VardaValar1: There are holy trees.
VardaValar1: The water of Vai is more ethereal and pure than normal water, part of Ulmo's home.
VardaValar1: Lots of fun stuff to play with.
VardaValar1: So, not enough to play with? :-)
VardaValar1: Indis was wanting to talk about the rp.
VardaValar1: Eonwe is still in a side window, said he had chocolate birthday cake.
VardaValar1: Pharazon, you still there?
karakedi25: not necessary if the people involved aren't here
ArPharazonV: his birthday?
ArPharazonV: yeah, I'm here
karakedi25: ooh we could talk about chocolate ;-)
ArPharazonV: I don't like chocolate >.>
VardaValar1: Pharazon and I are in the rp. Eonwe is in the rp and in a side window.
VardaValar1: I like chocolate. : )
VardaValar1: Sauron likes strawberry. : )
VardaValar1: What do you like in a cake flavor, Phar?
ArPharazonV: strawberry's good :-)
karakedi25: aw
karakedi25: lemon is also good
VardaValar1: Maybe we should reintroduce ourselves as our rp characters?
VardaValar1: In the forum rp, I play Fainan, Silvan archer and guide.
ArPharazonV: hi, Calion, son of Pharion *shakes hands*
VardaValar1: The "Cal brothers", played by Pharazon.
ArPharazonV: *nod*
karakedi25: hehe
ArPharazonV: as well as their pet wolf ;-)
ArPharazonV: Helvy!
VardaValar1: Eonwe plays Auros, the Noldo sent from Rivendell to search secretly to see if the path through Mirkwood or Erebor is safe for the Fellowship.
karakedi25: we have been talking about introducing a new character of mine--a Silvan elf probably named Meren
VardaValar1: Student of archaeology, interested in the ruins of Angmar where we're going, would like to learn more.
VardaValar1: She'll probably want to study whatever Elrond's library has on it before we go to the ruins.
karakedi25: Sent by Thranduil to help out on the Angmar/staff thing
VardaValar1: Did you request Thranduil to be the one sent when he perhaps enquired of your teacher who might be available and good at this?
karakedi25: no, the teacher recommended me
VardaValar1: I was hoping you had a fire in it and pushed for it, but ok. Are you somewhat reluctant to be coming?
karakedi25: no, I'm eager, but I'm also humble ;-)
VardaValar1: A humble person can still request to go.
VardaValar1: Sounds more like a confidence problem.
karakedi25: hmmm...not necessarily...
karakedi25: Meren is not of the aristocracy, though her family is good
VardaValar1: Fainan is not of the aristocracy either.
VardaValar1: But since my character is not a scholar, we may not know each other well. We would recognize each other, most likely.
VardaValar1: Maybe Fainan took some courses from you.
karakedi25: Fainan is a well-known master archer
karakedi25: that's possible, and possibly Fainan helped train Meren in archery, which she would need to know
VardaValar1: Just because Fainan is not in the scholarly profession does not mean getting away without an education. ;-)
ArPharazonV: and of course from Calion and Calaron it is to be expected to follow somewhat of an education :-)
karakedi25: nor because Meren isn't primarily a member of the defense forces doesn't mean she hasn't learned the basics and possibly a little more
karakedi25: so all three might know each other somewhat even if not well
karakedi25: and respect each one for their specialties
FladrifV: namarie all
VardaValar1: All of Thranduil's people have to be able to defend themselves from the intelligent spiders and the orcs, so they all learn some martial training, how to handle spider and orc's poisons.
ArPharazonV: namarie Flad!
VardaValar1: Namarie,
VardaValar1: ent!
karakedi25: take care, and don't let the huorns get out of hadn
karakedi25: *hand
karakedi25: namarie
FladrifV: they are already out of hand
FladrifV: otherwise they would have been called ents
VardaValar1: hehe
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karakedi25: wb Eonwe
VardaValar1: You made it!
Eonwe Valar: It "looks" like I'm here....
VardaValar1: Happy birthday!
VardaValar1: We see you!
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
ArPharazonV: happy birthday :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: So, I'm guessing I missed an aweful lot.
FladrifV: a tiny bit you can say
karakedi25: indeed, many happy returns
pallandovalar: You missed turning a comparison of Greek mythos and Tolkien mythos into entropy 101..
ArPharazonV: hehe
FladrifV: *grin*
Eonwe Valar: Hehe
orodrethV: It was all Pallando's doing.
oessala: Fladrif started it!
orodrethV: Oh stuff it.
pallandovalar: Great.
Eonwe Valar: So,.. Pallando the hydra? :}
FladrifV: *saved*
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VardaValar1: Crash
ArPharazonV: *sigh*
karakedi25: bah
VardaValar1: His connection failed, yet he is still ok in the side window.
orodrethV: ..was thinking more Scylla, actually.
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VardaValar1: Just looking at Menelvagor's posts again, as Estarion.
karakedi25: *nods*
VardaValar1: He says he was training in his town near Cuivienen.
VardaValar1: I'm wondering how old he intended Estarion to be?
VardaValar1: While he was training at home, in his town near Cuivienen, he had mastered fighting with one hand only, for it might be necessary when injured. Estarion now silently thanked his trainers for doing so, since his right arm was now useless.
VardaValar1: This is obviously the past, but that would make him seriously ancient.
ArPharazonV: why? I'm not sure how long the journey takes, but those towns near Cuivienen might still be around by the time of our story
ArPharazonV: it might not be *that* far in the past
VardaValar1: Not likely
karakedi25: The Cuivienen area is supposed to have been pretty much devasted
ArPharazonV: really?
karakedi25: I'm pretty sure it was. I've seen references to it's being lost.
karakedi25: I don't remember which war or series of wars did it
VardaValar1: It was on the eastern shore of Helcar, so it probably was sunk at the Changing of the World along with most of Beleriand.
ArPharazonV: you mean, when the world was made round?
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: because it was to the Eastern side?
VardaValar1: Did it become the Sea of Rhun?
VardaValar1: A much smaller sea. I need to do some digging.
VardaValar1: Sea of Rhun may have been its remnant.
VardaValar1: But I kind of doubt it.
ArPharazonV: it seems a bit... western to be Cuivienen, I was under the impression that Cuivienen was far more to the East
VardaValar1: Dorwinion was on the east of the Sea of Rhun, according to an atlas.
karakedi25: The land where the Quendi or Elves awoke. Its name (cuivië+nen) means 'water of awakening,' and it is said to have been on the shore of a large gulf in the inland Sea of Helkar in the far east of Middle-earth. The Awakening of the Elves took place in very ancient times, during the Years of the Trees, and Cuiviénen is known to have been destroyed (perhaps by natural forces) since then.
VardaValar1: I think we had better pull out a map.
karakedi25: from Wikipedia as looking it up in Tolkien would take a long time
VardaValar1: Indis, please state your reference?
VardaValar1: Wiki, thanks.
ArPharazonV: yes, "known to have been destroyed" seems a bit vague to me...
karakedi25: The first Sundering of the Elves took place when the Eldar departed from Cuiviénen to Valinor, leaving behind the Avari. It is unknown how long the Avari remained at Cuiviénen during the First Age, but it is certain that the Sea of Helcar ceased to exist after the War of Wrath, for "to Cuiviénen there is no returning"
VardaValar1: We look up things from original sources because we keep finding errors that people keep repeating from each other.
ArPharazonV: but perhaps more importantly, did Menelvagor know this when he made the reference? :-)
VardaValar1: I do remember the last line that you quoted.
VardaValar1: "to Cuiviénen there is no returning
karakedi25: I can look it up in Tolkien but it would take a while to do it
ArPharazonV: I don't, really... but maybe I will during the reread
karakedi25: since I'd have to look at several different sources
ArPharazonV: if I remember this conversation when I find it, I'll let you know the source
VardaValar1: Normally we spend a good bit of time during Tolkien discussions looking up stuff in the books; we got pretty fast.
ArPharazonV: I've got Silm, UT, Lotr, HoME and Letters, so...
VardaValar1: Anyway, like to see Menelvagor sometime and ask what he actually meant.
karakedi25: going to check the Letterws
karakedi25: *letters
VardaValar1: Phar, it's why we have transcripts. : )
ArPharazonV: of course, but if I don't remember, I won't remember to look it up ;-)
ArPharazonV: I'll start by saying I can't find it now in the last chapter of the Silmarillion of the War of Wrath, but it was only a quick scan
karakedi25: not in the letters
VardaValar1: oh, found something from another discussion, first battle of Beleriand is mentioned near the end of "Of the Sindar" Sil.
ArPharazonV: (2) The Silmarillion contains the line,Quote:In the changes of the world the shapes of lands and of seas have been broken and remade; rivers have not kept their courses, neither have mountains remained steadfast; and to Cuivienen there is no returning.
ArPharazonV: this is from a forum
ArPharazonV: at least it gives a source, though where in the Silm it would be I have no idea.. yet
orodrethV: someone remind me to finish archiving and editing that Beren and Luthien site next week. I've had it half finished for months.
karakedi25: In the changes of the world the shapes of lands and of seas have been broken and remade; rivers have not kepttheir courses, neither have mountains remained steadfast; and to Cuiviénen there is no returning. But it is said amongthe Elves that it lay far off in the east of Middle-earth, and northward, and it was a bay in the Inland Sea of Helcar;
karakedi25: Silmarilion, p. 19 in the edition I'm looking at
karakedi25: Chapter 3
ArPharazonV: ah yes, found it
VardaValar1: Thanks : )
karakedi25: looking now in Untold Tales
ArPharazonV: and yes, its destruction is definitely implied, and even if it is not, "no returning" would at least mean that it is impossible to reach in later times and nobody ever seems to have made contact with it again
karakedi25: Not there
karakedi25: (in UT)
ArPharazonV: so Menelvagor being raised there recently and travelling here from it is not an option, to say the least
ArPharazonV: or, Estarion, anyway
karakedi25: Could be in HoME, but that would be a long search
VardaValar1: In the Sil quote, that's general changes of the world, not the time of going from flat to round.
ArPharazonV: it would count as a "change of the world" though ;-)
ArPharazonV: though perhaps it was not meant as a reference to that particular change
karakedi25: no, probably more related to one of the wars with Melkor
ArPharazonV: I'd have to reread HoME, but the changing of the world to a round shape seems conceived after the main bulk of the Silmarillion was already largely put down
karakedi25: yes, and it's treated as an appendix (though that may be Christopher)
VardaValar1: Still looking.
ArPharazonV: and this particular reference may have been written long before the conception of Numenor's rebellion
ArPharazonV: or the consequences of the rebellion as we know them now, in any case
karakedi25: actually, the precursor to the Akallabeth is one of Tolkien's earliest fantasies, but he may not have integrated it until later
VardaValar1: Sil was taken by Chris from a ton of notes by JRRT also.
karakedi25: that's what I mean
VardaValar1: Wars with Melkor shortly after the other mention, tells of the Valar setting a guard over Cuivienen, and the many changes of the earth at that time.
VardaValar1: Doesn't say they did or did not protect Cuivienen completely or partially. Success or no? Still digging.
karakedi25: after the Eldar left, I thinl they didn't
karakedi25: *think
VardaValar1: It's there, a few pages on. I'm using the index and our page numbers are different, as we have different copies.
VardaValar1: aye, this set of wars was before the riding forth, so they did manage to protect it. The war was for the elves' sake, which is a reason Morgoth hated elves.
pallandovalar: /me cries at the cost of t2 items nowadays.
VardaValar1: Morgoth was imprisoned, yet the Valar still wanted the elves to leave Middle-earth for their safety. At least, part of the Valar wanted it.
karakedi25: yes, but after the Eldar left, the Valar pretty much lost interest in the Avari
karakedi25: and mostly the Sindar who didn't end up crossing the Sea
VardaValar1: Not much they could do to help them at that point.
VardaValar1: The Avari were sundered in that time from the Eldar, and met never again until many ages were passed.
VardaValar1: unquote
VardaValar1: Going back to the first spot you mentioned, very good, it has more on the location.
VardaValar1: Far off in the east of Middle-earth, and northward, and it was a bay in the inland sea of Helcar;
karakedi25: Yes, though I didnt quote it because I thought we already accepted that
VardaValar1: and that sea stood where aforetime the roots of the mountains of Illuin had been before Melkor overthrew it.
VardaValar1: No one is fussing at you. Just looked like an interesting bit to have on here for when we're digging up stuff.
VardaValar1: Tell you what, I think I'll go make supper now. : ) Let Phar get some sleep.
VardaValar1: No Menelvagor here.
VardaValar1: Namarie for now.
ArPharazonV: sleeeeep....
ArPharazonV: *snores*
VardaValar1: *chuckles*
VardaValar1: About 2am for you, good buddy?
VardaValar1: I'm keeping you up too late again, sorry.
ArPharazonV: it's nearing 3 am, to be honest
VardaValar1: eww
VardaValar1: Namarie : )
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karakedi25: we're starting a kinship meeting, so I'll log out as well
karakedi25: thanks for an interesting meeting on every topic :-)
ArPharazonV: indeed :-)
karakedi25: namarie
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript
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