Valar Guild

March 15, 2009 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00?)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (7)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, arwenv1, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Feanor-(V)/IWF519, fladrifv, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    New Full Members in order of entering the guild:
    Games page
    What's behind a name link given by Fladrif and Arien.
    LotRO: major expansion adding Lothlorien on Tuesday.
    Warhammer Online: review by Arwen-(V), who plans on a fuller review for the Games page.
    Evil and good are called black and white. Some critics claim Tolkien did not use characters that had both good and evil, called grey (not to be confused with Wizards colors!) Two characters came under examination for such traits: Feanor and Turin, with a few digressions.
    Eonwe Valar: Homework assignment: Bring a topic to discuss to next week's meeting :} Tolkien topic, of course :}

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Eonwe Valar: We'll give it a couple more minutes, then we'll begin.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: again, all this stuff with daylight savings, means an hour more Naxx for me :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: just Sapph and Kel'thuzad left though
Eonwe Valar: I guess this is it tonight. For reference, attendance at this time is Eonwë, Pharazon, and Fladrif.
Eonwe Valar: Let's begin the meeting.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership
Eonwe Valar: Two new members.
Eonwe Valar: Both in LotRO, both tested by Varda.
Eonwe Valar: Looks like it just happened today too, since it's under today's date on the News Page.
Eonwe Valar: Lothiriel is the first, who then scouted Forlong.
Eonwe Valar: Too bad they're not here for their few words.
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, make that 3 new members. We can't forget about our new Halbarad.
Eonwe Valar: Varda's been busy this week, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: If I'm reading this right, the News page says he found the Games Page first. Nice to know it comes in handy, hehe :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Member News?
Eonwe Valar: Guess that's a no :}

Eonwe Valar: Web News:
Eonwe Valar: The Games Page work I've been doing is starting to come to fruition. First update is the way Gaming News is handled. Next will be changes to the menu and some back-end organizational changes.
Eonwe Valar: Feel free to check it out, but if it's working right you probably won't notice a difference :}
Eonwe Valar: Yet :}
Eonwe Valar: In the chance someone doesn't know the address for the Games Page, it's

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately I ended up working later than expected this Friday, and so got in late on Lothar.
AriehnV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: We didn't make it into Onyxia's lair. We'll see what happens next Friday.
AriehnV: aiya all :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien
Eonwe Valar: We're in gaming right now.
AriehnV: *nods and sits in background while picking locks *
Eonwe Valar: Uldaman: Afraid I didn't make it in here for gaming either. Elwing had been in though.
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Aside from Varda's bringing in three members this week, they've been running stuff too.
Eonwe Valar: Seems they at least got in a Tomb of Elendil run, and certainly more.
ArPharazonV: aiya Arien
Eonwe Valar: The next content patch for LotRO is coming on the 17th.
AriehnV: Aiya Phara :-)
ArPharazonV: *walks back to WoW* one boss left
arwenv1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Anyone play anything besides WoW and LotRO this week?
arwenv1: >.> I've been playing warhammer online :-)
ArPharazonV: a bit of Gruntz
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, didn't see Arwen walk in, but heya :}
ArPharazonV: by the way, I got my 35th to 37th exalted factions today in WoW ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
Eonwe Valar: Timbermaw rep gain has become amazingly easy. I got from half friendly to Revered in a couple of hours.
ArPharazonV: trying to finish Ashtongue, Arathor and Silverwing in the upcoming weeks to get Justicar *and* the Exalted title
Eonwe Valar: Helps I was the only one at that particular furbolg camp too :}
Eonwe Valar: Good luck :}
ArPharazonV: thanks
Eonwe Valar: Arwen, anything you'd like to tell us about Warhammer Online?
fladrifv: oh I missed webnews.. ill prospone it to next week then :-)
Eonwe Valar: I guess Arwen doesn't want to tell us about Warhammer Online :}
arwenv1: woops
arwenv1: War is fun :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe :}
arwenv1: Its similar to Wow, but enough dissimilar to be quite a bit of fun
arwenv1: has some interesting game mechanics, like public quests
Eonwe Valar: public quests?
arwenv1: which are like.. mini events that happen in a certain area
arwenv1: yup
arwenv1: like.. one of them, one of the easy ones, you enter an area with a bunch of spiders
arwenv1: and the game informs you that you've entered the area of a PQ
arwenv1: and its at the first stage, and the goal of this stage is to kill 30 of one kind of spider, and 15 of another
fladrifv: sounds awfully familiar
arwenv1: and so some may already be killed, or something, but you start killing spiders, till the 30 of one is killed and the 15 of another
arwenv1: well, it is a quest :-)
arwenv1: but in this there can be any number of people helping
fladrifv: but how to deal with more then 30,,,some cant kill a spider then :-)
arwenv1: and once you get the first stage down, the next stage comes, in the spider one, you have to free 15 townspeople from webs
arwenv1: then after the 15 are free, the next stage (usually final) spawns.. and its usually a boss sort of mob to kill
Eonwe Valar: So it's kind of like WoW's World events ie. Scourge Invasion original, Sunwell Isle, Opening of Ahn Qiraj in that respect.
arwenv1: and the spider one is an easy PQ, so you can two man it if you have enough levels and such
arwenv1: and you blast the spider, and then the event is over, and a reward chest spawns, and the game ranks people's contributions
arwenv1: how much damage they did, how much healing, how many quest objectives they completed
AriehnV: sounds good
Eonwe Valar: Sounds interesting.
arwenv1: and asigns them a ranking, and then everyone rolls, and if you ranked in the first set with high contribution, you get a weighted roll.. like first place has +500 to their roll added
Eonwe Valar: I'm guessing it's not a 0-100 roll then :}
arwenv1: and then everyone who won a prize bag gets to claim a bag from the chest, and then you can pick your reward out of the bag
arwenv1: no.. its something like 1-1000 or 1-1200
arwenv1: I think the later
arwenv1: and each prize bag has a range of rewards, usually a nice piece of equipment, or nice components for professions, or just some money, so you can choose what you want
arwenv1: I've done quite a few PQ's for the profession items :-)
arwenv1: and the professions are different in that it doesnt have set recipes
arwenv1: you throw things together and see what happens =P
arwenv1: and bolstering is awesome really
arwenv1: it allows people who aren't the same level to pvp together with similar stats
arwenv1: in teir 1, if you're under level 8, you are 'bolstered' to level 8 in terms of stats and skill abilities, so you can still reasonably participate
arwenv1: and skills, when you level and go to learn a new spell or whatnot, you only have to learn it once
arwenv1: then each time it levels, the power of the spell increases with you
arwenv1: so no retraining things
Eonwe Valar: No learning different "ranks" at the trainer then.
arwenv1: true :-)
arwenv1: and they have what they call RvR realm v realm
arwenv1: they have open rvr areas (like world pvp) but you capture objectives and such, and then quick scenarios (like bg)
arwenv1: and they use instead of honor points, renown, which you level in ranks, so my bright wizard is rank 12, renown rank 8, or in war shorthand r12rr8 :-)
Eonwe Valar: Oh, joy, shorthand :}
arwenv1: and those determine what rewards you can buy, etc
arwenv1: :-) every game has shorthand
arwenv1: I also like.. that they restrict things to teirs
Eonwe Valar: Anything you've seen yet that's less than ideal?
arwenv1: you dont have higher teir people coming to lower tiers to off people in the open rvr areas or in general
arwenv1: because if they try to engage in rvr in lower tier levels they turn into a chicken :-)
Eonwe Valar: So the whole world is to some extent what Blizzard would call "phased" then.
Eonwe Valar: Oh, then no :}
arwenv1: yes, there are things that are less than ideal, there are still some class issues in balance
arwenv1: and the graphics seem less clean than wow
arwenv1: but with wow's graphics being kinda cartoony, it achieves a very nice smoothness
arwenv1: the graphics may be a bit under lotro's too
arwenv1: but there are some awesome bits, like what I've said
arwenv1: and classes, like.. um.. warrior priest
arwenv1: who is a melee healer :-)
ArPharazonV: arrrrgh, Kel'thuzad wipe on 5%
arwenv1: different cool mechanics that allow you to do better heals after you've done some offensive spells
Eonwe Valar: Yeah, that was all the rage to talk about on the Blizzard Paladin forums in BC :}
ArPharazonV: will read up on this when we're done
arwenv1: Good luck, Arpharazon!
Eonwe Valar: Thanks for that report on Warhammer Online, Arwen :}
Eonwe Valar: Guess I can't convince you to type it up in a review for the Games Page? :}
arwenv1: You're welcome!
arwenv1: sure
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
arwenv1: I can do that =P maybe find a few extra things to add :-)
Eonwe Valar: That'd be great :}
Eonwe Valar: Anything you think would be good for someone to know when trying to decide on whether or not to play it, whether positive or negative, would be good.
arwenv1: okay :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: OK, we've come to the moment between business and Tolkien. Fladrif, are you here and did you still want to pose what you had? I'm curious to know what it is :}
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya! I apologize for not catching the time!
Eonwe Valar: Heya and NP :}
Eonwe Valar: We're about to transition into Tolkien.
Eonwe Valar: Arwen just got done sharing a good chunk of info on Warhammer Online with us.
Eonwe Valar: Fladrif had something he wanted to propose during web, but missed Web news and seems he'll be missing his chance again, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: Or just something he wanted to say perhaps "Prospone" can go either way :}
AriehnV: i think he s stuck in the whats behind the name page lol
VardaValar1: Thanks Arwen!
AriehnV: this one
AriehnV: thought u might want peep thou its got nothing to do with valar or tolkien but for after :-)
VardaValar1: I'm bringing in a new member, still working on a name.
fladrifv: thanks ariehn for giving the page
fladrifv: that was what I wanted to mention :-)
Eonwe Valar: So you're going for 4 in one week? :}
Eonwe Valar: Ah :}
IWF519 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks to you both then :}
VardaValar1: Hail and welcome :-)
IWF519: Hail and well met! :-)
VardaValar1: This is Sunday, so three today. : )
IWF519: i feel a bit out of place with my name :/
Eonwe Valar: Hail and Welcome to the Sanctum of Valar :}
fladrifv: welcome
VardaValar1: We have new members Lothiriel-(V) and Forlong-(V) today.
VardaValar1: And this gentleman about whom we needed to ask about his name.
Eonwe Valar: Has he already taken the test?
VardaValar1: Have any of you seen Feanor on at all this year or late last year?
VardaValar1: He passed beautifully, with good extra discussion of themes.
Eonwe Valar: Excellent :}
VardaValar1: Arien, Phar, Fladrif, have any of you seen Feanor at all?
AriehnV: aiya there :-)
VardaValar1: This year or even the last half of last year?
IWF519: Aiya, mae govannen
Eonwe Valar: Don't beleive I have, but checking the Forum for activity.
VardaValar1: Thank you. He used to be in WoW Europe.
AriehnV: no i havent seen him at all Eonwe
IWF519: well, i dont want to make too much trouble, i can pick another name. lord knows theres plenty :-)
VardaValar1: I think both of those names are falling into disuse, would be great to have an active member take one.

Shifted towards Tolkien discussion while discussing the name for a new member:
ArPharazonV: Feanor?
ArPharazonV: don't think I know him
IWF519: he doomed the Noldor ,
IWF519: :-)
VardaValar1: He means the player. : )
fladrifv: didnt he also create the palantiri?
IWF519: i believe it was the Silmarils
IWF519: though im admittedly rusty
fladrifv: luckely mine are not sensitive for rust...
ArPharazonV: I meant the player, yes
Eonwe Valar: I beleive it's UT that says he had a hand in the Palantiri.
AriehnV: U know him maybe under the character name Eol#
VardaValar1: I agree, Eonwe.
VardaValar1: No problem on Feanor. IWF just chose Eomer.
AriehnV: Eomer :-D
AriehnV: welcome Eomer , its a good name
IWF519: thank you
Eonwe Valar: Hail and welcome to the Valar Guild, Eomer :}
ArPharazonV: and yeah, he made the Palantiri, or at least it was suggested he did
IWF519: thank you much
arwenv1: Greets and cheers :-)
ArPharazonV: though it might have been mentioned in the Silmarillion too... chapter.. 7 or something?
Eonwe Valar: Pretty sure it wasn't in the Sil.
IWF519: Feanor, swore the Oath, and wrought the Kinslaying though right?
Eonwe Valar: 3 kinslaying came of that oath.
Eonwe Valar: *kinslayings
Eonwe Valar: Can anyone name them all?
VardaValar1: Feanor made the oath, and caused the kinslayings thereby, and the downfall of Finrod to Sauron. True.
IWF519: first came with the shipburning
ArPharazonV: Alqualonde, Doriath and...
ArPharazonV: mouths of Sirion
Eonwe Valar: Yikes,.. I misplaced my Sil.
IWF519: no worries i have one here , though i will not open it :-)
Eonwe Valar: By the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, Fëanor proved himself a hypocrite.
Eonwe Valar: He was chasing down Morgoth for the very thing he was now doing to the Teleri.
ArPharazonV: "and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwe."
Eonwe Valar: That was in the Sil Phar?
ArPharazonV: Silm chapter 6, of Feanor
VardaValar1: (Lothiriel just commented that they are now married.)
Eonwe Valar: Ok, fair enough, sounds like there's a reference even if it doesn't outright call them Palantiri.
ArPharazonV: *nod* it seems to imply the Palantiri
IWF519: that is unmistakable
Eonwe Valar: they who are now married?
fladrifv: palantiri maried?
VardaValar1: In the books, Lothiriel and Eomer were married. Passing on a comment from LotRO.
Eonwe Valar: Aha.
fladrifv: does anyone know who was watching by use of the palantir from the master stone?
Eonwe Valar: Wives, friends, and enemies are issued automatically upon entering Valar, hehe :}
VardaValar1: hehe - aye!
Eonwe Valar: That is a joke, in case someone thought I was serious for some reason :}
VardaValar1: Thanks to the mention of Feanor, in a side conversation, the concept of is there any shade of grey in Tolkien came up. Is it all black and white?
IWF519: Turin is what I feel a shade of grey
ArPharazonV: Feanor's a shade of grey, sure, though he darkened towards the end
ArPharazonV: one could say that Pharazon is a shade of grey, though from the outside he might seem all black
IWF519: I feel if Literary scholars read Silmarillion their perspective of Tolkien would be way different
ArPharazonV: Turin's a shade of grey, definitely
VardaValar1: If they read LotR or the H, it would be too. ;-)
IWF519: :-)
Eonwe Valar: How is Turin a shade of grey?
ArPharazonV: what about Denethor?
fladrifv: May I vote for the trolls that turned into stone in the H.
ArPharazonV: even Boromir, for that matter
Eonwe Valar: Let's examine why they are shades of grey.
IWF519: he was embittered by his exile, and quite homicidal
IWF519: but ultimately he did what was right
Eonwe Valar: Homocidal? He didn't go around randomly killing people as I recall.
ArPharazonV: Turin? well, perhaps not randomly
IWF519: well, when that one brigand he decapitated
ArPharazonV: but he did grab his sword as first resort on a number of occasions
Eonwe Valar: HIs killing was generally limited to the servants of Morgoth.
ArPharazonV: including the brigand, and Saeros, and Brandir?
Eonwe Valar: A number of those occasions found him in a position where grabbing his sword was a smart move. Unfortunately for Beleg, Turin he acted before he thought.
Eonwe Valar: Brandir was slain unjustly, aye, Saeros was accidental if no less cruel (though Saeros was not innocent either).
Eonwe Valar: Which brigand?
IWF519: i have to find my copy
ArPharazonV: dunno, IWF mentioned it, but I do vaguely recall the situation :-)
ArPharazonV: but as I have my silm here, hang on
ArPharazonV: it does not appear to be in the Silm, but maybe it's mentioned in the detailed UT story
IWF519: it is
IWF519: that is where i recall it
IWF519: i cant find it ATM
Eonwe Valar: That's likely an older version of the story then.
VardaValar1: Or in Children of Hurin?
ArPharazonV: actually, unfinished tales is, in the case of Turin, more recent than the Silm
ArPharazonV: how about Brodda? was that justified?
VardaValar1: We do go with Sil as canon, but that does not prevent using the rest for this discussion. : )
IWF519: :-)
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Brodda as I recall was the man who was given rule over Hitlum when Morgoth overran it?
ArPharazonV: yep
ArPharazonV: and Turin came there looking for his mother and sister, found them gone already when he came to Brodda's halls, and killed him in a fit of rage
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Pardon, wrong key.
ArPharazonV: Brodda might not have been a good guy, but I don't think he was slain for the right reasons
IWF519: Turin ultimately let his blade do the talking so to speak. whether justified or not
Eonwe Valar: My Sil just turned up, hehe. One sec.
VardaValar1: Turin couldn't just ask Brodda where Morwen was, he had to do it at swordpoint.
IWF519: but did he have to ultimately kill him?
VardaValar1: So when Turin realized he had been fooled by Glaurung, he had his sword in hand and went into one of his rages. Brodda was wayyy to close. No, he should not have killed him like that.
VardaValar1: Then he slew the other Easterlings guesting at Brodda's house.
ArPharazonV: and then he left Hithlum, leaving what remained of his people to be even more in trouble with the Easterlings found out their leader was dead...
IWF519: i suppose it is not unreasonable to think any of us may of acted in such a manner, that is why i feel it is a shade of grey
Eonwe Valar: It doesn't seem Brodda had done anything at the moment to provoke him, but considering the first few paragraphs of that chapter talk about how Turin's people were enslaved and treated badly by Brodda's people, I doubt Brodda was all sunshine and lollipops (hehe :}) in the interim.
VardaValar1: It was a shade of grey. His killings also cleared the way for Morwen.
VardaValar1: Brodda deserved the death, as did the Easterlings, so that may have been why Turin did not even try to hold back his berserk mood.
VardaValar1: hehe Eonwe
IWF519: but his lack of composure shows that he cannot be trusted by either free people or servants of the enemy
VardaValar1: Aye, he was a dangerous, two-edged sword.
VardaValar1: He meant well.
VardaValar1: So he was grey.
Eonwe Valar: Turin was one of the few people who could wine about his fate and hit pretty clear the mark... Morgoth did everything in his power to make Turin's life miserable to torture Hurin.
IWF519: alas the road to hell is paved with good intentions
Eonwe Valar: *whine
VardaValar1: Morgoth was back of so much of what was going on in Turin's life, true.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: He would be right to be paranoid.
IWF519: a Great and tragic literary character that will never get the recognition he deserves
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: In one version, after death he and his sister join the Valar. Turin kills Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: Yikes, I think I blinked out for a second there.
VardaValar1: Yes you did. But this time you made it back!
Eonwe Valar: What was said since my comment on Turin?
VardaValar1: VardaValar1: Morgoth was back of so much of what was going on in Turin's life, true.Eonwe Valar has left the room.VardaValar1: He would be right to be paranoid.IWF519: a Great and tragic literary character that will never get the recognition he deservesEonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
VardaValar1: My pleasure. :-)
VardaValar1: Sure hope Phar is getting the transcript!
IWF519: he reminds me of a Clint Eastwood character
ArPharazonV: that's the plan, yes
ArPharazonV: but I think Flad has been here from the start too
VardaValar1: Flad, feel free to send in transcripts too! : )
ArPharazonV: one wonders if what Turin went through was mostly Morgoth's doing, or his own doing in reaction to Morgoth's doing?
ArPharazonV: and does there have to be a difference?
VardaValar1: Those berserk rages make me wonder. Are those part of Turin or a curse from Morgoth?
IWF519: Tolkien once said, those who flee their destiny only find a straighter path to it
VardaValar1: Morgoth could play with the timing.
Eonwe Valar: Except, Turin had times of peace when no one knew he was who he was.
VardaValar1: Aye. Like Eru said that whatever Morgoth did would end up working for Eru.
ArPharazonV: make a nice thunderstorm on the night Beleg tries to rescue Turin... and boom
Eonwe Valar: It was when his identity was revealed that everything started getting messy.
IWF519: So i beilieve he was doing everything he could not to be the Doombringer, but ultimately he made it happen
VardaValar1: So we're pretty much in agreement? Turin makes a good shade of grey character?
VardaValar1: He meant to do good, but had Morgoth against him and berserk rages, so that he did both good and evil.
Eonwe Valar: If we're judging the person and not the actions themselves,...
ArPharazonV: a tendency to burst out in berserk rages is the person, though, not just the actions
VardaValar1: Actions are the fruits of the person. But Turin also had good actions.
IWF519: he slayed Glaurung.
ArPharazonV: did he also take out Mim? don't remember the details, but I'd think it's likely...
IWF519: the dwarf?
ArPharazonV: aye
Eonwe Valar: Hurin killed Mim, but considering Mim had betrayed Turin I'd say that's fairly just.
ArPharazonV: ohh, right
IWF519: aye
ArPharazonV: Mim guarded the hoard of Nargothrond when Hurin met him
IWF519: right
IWF519: and deceived Hurin as to his son's whereabouts
VardaValar1: Wasn't it Beleg that killed Mim? I'll look it up.
Eonwe Valar: No, it was Hurin.
Eonwe Valar: In the Sil version at least.
VardaValar1: Hurin is right.
ArPharazonV: then how did Turin and Mim part? did Mim bring the servants of Morgoth to his home or something?
Eonwe Valar: Yes.
Eonwe Valar: Mim was caught by orcs just like Turin had caught him earlier.
Eonwe Valar: He pulled the same deal to get out with his life.
ArPharazonV: Mim didn't really have a reputation of stealthiness, did he? :-)
Eonwe Valar: Apparently not. :}
VardaValar1: Beleg just ran off Mim, didn't get to kill him.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
ArPharazonV: he showed better restraint than Turin did, then :-)
Eonwe Valar: Not really. I think Beleg was buried under a pile of bodies at the time :}
ArPharazonV: meh, I forget all the details....
VardaValar1: Mim was caught by orcs, promised to lead them to his home if they spared his life and did not kill Turin. So they captured Turin in a net.
ArPharazonV: 's been too long
VardaValar1: Not everyone was quite dead when Mim checked. Beleg was hurt but alive.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: Mim was going to kill him with a sword.
Eonwe Valar: Scratch the buried under bodies part I mentioned.
VardaValar1: The sword Anglachel. : )
Eonwe Valar: Moreover, he was going to use Anglachel.
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
VardaValar1: Beleg managed to get up and take away the sword, thrust it at Mim, who ran.
VardaValar1: Beleg would have died but he was an elf and a master of healing, and survived.
Eonwe Valar: "Mighty among the Elves of Middle-Earth." Aye.
VardaValar1: That's when he went to look for Turin.
VardaValar1: Not so sure that was restraint on Beleg's part, as he cried out vengeance on Mim. : )
ArPharazonV: hmm
VardaValar1: Beleg was just too injured to catch up.
IWF519: likely
VardaValar1: I'm using the Sil, "Of Turin Turambar", for those looking it up.
IWF519: mim was not a very nice dwarf. quite spineless
ArPharazonV: perhaps that was why he was one of the last ones left at the time
VardaValar1: The Petty Dwarves were exiled from the other dwarves for being so sub-par. : )
ArPharazonV: the rest got themselves killed by having a spine
Eonwe Valar: All his people were exiles from Dwarf mansions in the far east, exiled for unspecified reasons.
VardaValar1: Aye. That would probably have been another chapter by itself!
IWF519: perhaps another book even
Eonwe Valar: Mim and his two sons were the last of the Petty Dwarves. His people were quite doomed.
VardaValar1: They were leftovers from a time of writing when the dwarves were villains, an early version. Such things add interesting complications to what might have been a straightforward plot line.
VardaValar1: No females. Aye. They would have had to find a dwarf lady of the regular dwarves to continue, and that was extremely unlikely.
ArPharazonV: they could kidnap one?
VardaValar1: They were few, picky, and rarely came out from underground.
IWF519: they would still gave to try and find one to kidnap
VardaValar1: I'll bet they hoped to some day, Phar. Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Assuming they could overpower one, hehe.
VardaValar1: So once again the destruction of the Petty Dwarves due to meeting Turin turned out to be a good thing.
ArPharazonV: not for them, it wasn't
VardaValar1: heh - Mim would agree with you, Phar.
ArPharazonV: it was just quickening the inevitable, to the end
VardaValar1: Was Mim grey or not?
Eonwe Valar: I doubt they had any hope of repeopleing their lands. Dwarf women did not travel often, so unless they thought 3 Petty-Dwarves could challenge the might of Nogrod and Belegost,...
IWF519: perhaps you could say the same if the elves were destroyed as such
Eonwe Valar: Mim was tragic, but certainly not grey.
IWF519: all his actions were of corruption
VardaValar1: He did ask that the orcs not kill Turin, as part of the deal. But that was not much good to find.
ArPharazonV: he showed no redeeming qualities, aye
IWF519: though that may not be the right word
fladrifv has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's examine one more before we let the Europeans get some sleep :}
Eonwe Valar: Fëanor.
VardaValar1: Sounds good. : )
IWF519: ooo
Eonwe Valar: I say he wasn't grey.
IWF519: well Feanor acted out of Morgoths deception
ArPharazonV: you say he was black?
IWF519: he was good, just deceived
Eonwe Valar: Yes.
Eonwe Valar: Whatever good he had was lost in bitterness early on.
ArPharazonV: he swore an oath and had his sons swear an oath which led to kinslaying early on and would lead to more kinslaying in the future, but showed no signs of redemption
VardaValar1: So if he started with any goodness, would that make him grey at some point?
VardaValar1: No remorse, aye. That is black.
IWF519: well, i suppose it depends on how far the fall
Eonwe Valar: No, because then Morgoth is grey.
Eonwe Valar: And Morgoth is most certainly not grey.
ArPharazonV: Morgoth was grey at some point though :-)
IWF519: though Morgoth was corrupt since the beginning
VardaValar1: I just said at some point, not always.
IWF519: he always wanted to defile the songs
ArPharazonV: Morgoth was not corrupt since the beginning, but he had ambition and curiosity, and venturing out into the deep regions of space corrupted him
fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: Morgoth was not created corrupt, but fell, wanting the power of Eru to create life. He already had the power of the other Valar.
ArPharazonV: when the time came for the song, he was already corrupt
Eonwe Valar: Saying "grey" assumes a mix of good and bad.
IWF519: but what kind of mix. good actions and bad intent? or the other way around?
VardaValar1: Morgoth became black pretty fast. : )
ArPharazonV: if the switch from all good to all bad is immediate, there would be no shade of grey :-)
Eonwe Valar: The question is what actions? If the actions are bad, it doesn't matter what came of them.
VardaValar1: Morgoth seems to have been centered too much on self from the beginning, so he had only a short distance to fall.
ArPharazonV: so Morgoth started out grey?
Eonwe Valar: Fëanor's actions were measured with the philosophy that the end justifies the means, and this is philosophy in direct contradiction to Eru's design.
fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe.
ArPharazonV: it would seem Fladrif has trouble getting in
VardaValar1: If he gets more than one invitation, it will cause a problem. Who all has invited him back?
IWF519: though I still feel Feanor was acting out of deception
ArPharazonV: I'd invited him but it failed
IWF519: he is still at some fault,
VardaValar1: Yours and mine may have collided.
ArPharazonV: he was already failing before my invite
ArPharazonV: he'd already "left" twice
VardaValar1: Feanor was too centered on Feanor. That put him in jeopardy.
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth make the mistake of hitting to close to Fëanor's heart when he spoke of the SIlmarilli, and at that point Morgoth and his designs were laid bare to Fëanor.
IWF519: much like Morgoth
IWF519: 'self-centered that is
VardaValar1: Aye. If Feanor was not supposed to trust the other Valar, then he had no reason to trust Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: After that, deception is not an option for Fëanor.
IWF519: and by then Feanor was bound by his oath
ArPharazonV: Feanor might have been deceived, but his own personality made him more vulnerable to this
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar.
Eonwe Valar: No, the oath didn't come until later.
VardaValar1: aye, the oath was later.
IWF519: when you say spoke of the Silmarilli, you mean their creation ?
Eonwe Valar: He swore the oath, had his sons swear it, then on his death bed had them swear it 3 more times.
Eonwe Valar: I mean when Fëanor was at his fortress-home of Formenos, and Melkor came to visist.
Eonwe Valar: *visit.
IWF519: ok
Eonwe Valar: Fëanor up on a parapet, Melkor down below trying to convince Fëanor he was concerned for him.
IWF519: i recall now.
IWF519: one the one hand Feanor saw through it, but at the same time was tempted
Eonwe Valar: He had considered if he could trust Melkor to help him leave Aman up until Melkor mentioned the Silmarilli. At that point it was all over.
AriehnV: very interesting discussion but i fear i have to go :-(
AriehnV: i ll read it up next weak :-)
Eonwe Valar: Do we have any more to say on Fëanor?
IWF519: well i am unsure what to think, i fell he leans more toward black than grey
VardaValar1: I agree, Eomer.
IWF519: feel*
IWF519: in both actions and intent
Eonwe Valar: Eru pretty well lays down the primary law when he tells Aulë during the Dwarf-creation that "Of a gift I gave thee tine own being only."
Eonwe Valar: *thine
VardaValar1: He's much more black, caused all manner of grievous horror, had no remorse, was self-centered, did not care what he was doing to his sons and his people for his own glory.
IWF519: the gift of making life?
ArPharazonV: black is, when not pure black, also a shade of grey :-)
ArPharazonV: if he leans towards black he's still grey
Eonwe Valar: This means the wills of other "beings" should be respected. Fëanor rejected this, as did Morgoth.
VardaValar1: Feanor turned black.
IWF519: or to the whole world for that matter
AriehnV: Namarie for now :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
VardaValar1: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: the gift of life, Eomer.
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv: back?
VardaValar1: Only Eru could make life. Aule created robots in a wish for the promised brothers. He repented, and Eru gave them life.
ArPharazonV: yay, welcome back
VardaValar1: Welcome back, Fladrif!
IWF519: Eru showed pity on Aule
fladrifv: I found it already strange...20 minutes of silence
IWF519: because he saw that his creation was not of spite, but of honor and respect
VardaValar1: Aye. Eru had compassion. That seems to be one of the most important traits to Tolkien. : )
Eonwe Valar: As Aulë originally made the Dwarves, they could only exist out of his being, as they had none of their own, Aulë not having the right or ability to give "being" to other creatures.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eomer.
Eonwe Valar: Eru gave the Dwarves being but did not change them in any other way.
IWF519: It was a moving chapter
VardaValar1: Much happened in it, and a lot of feeling.
IWF519: but where do we stand on Feanor?
Eonwe Valar: I say he's a bad guy.
IWF519: who utter lacked any of the traits Eru praised
Eonwe Valar: The philosophy of "end justifies the means" was rejected by anyone considered wise by the time of the Third Age, recognizing the importance of each individual to choose their actions.
IWF519: very true. because more often than not. the means indicate the ends
Eonwe Valar: Fëanor, however, used this philosophy, and, funnily enough, swore an oath naming Eru to attempt to legitimize it.
VardaValar1: Such an oath could not be lifted or forgiven by the Valar. So he really got in over his head.
Eonwe Valar: It didn't take into account the rights of other peoples, only the concerns of the person exercising it.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
IWF519: he had forsaken himself, his kin and much of the world
VardaValar1: He foresook all except himself, and didn't realize that was destroying himself, so aye.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiyata, meldo. : )
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: Glad i got back in this week though.
Eonwe Valar: So what'd I missed since me calling Fëanor a hypocrite?
VardaValar1: True! Last couple of weeks a crash meant you were out. : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe Valar: It didn't take into account the rights of other peoples, only the concerns of the person exercising it.Eonwe Valar has left the room.IWF519: he had forsaken himself, his kin and much of the worldVardaValar1: He foresook all except himself, and didn't realize that was destroying himself, so aye.Eonwe Valar has entered the room.VardaValar1: Aiyata, meldo. : )
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, so my callign Fëanor a hypocrite didn't make it..
VardaValar1: Feel free to do it now. : )
Eonwe Valar: No matter, I was only repeating what I said at the start.
Eonwe Valar: Eonwe Valar: Furthermore, as I mentioned in the chat leading into the discussion, Fëanor acted hypocritically by doing to the Teleri what Morgoth had done to him, another action justifiable only in the philosophy he adopted.
VardaValar1: Proper circle to make completion.
VardaValar1: True.
VardaValar1: The ships of the Teleri were as precious and unique to them as the silmarils were to Feanor.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
IWF519: well, it would seem there was not much corruption or deception. and in that case Feanor was very much black
Eonwe Valar: He demanded his rights while denying them to others.
VardaValar1: But Morgoth only stole the Silmarils. Feanor burned the ships.
IWF519: he was a fascist
IWF519: Morgoth coveted the Silmarils as did Feanor. As did the Teleri to their ships
IWF519: Feanor saw little past his own desires
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Since we've come full circle, let's bang the gavel here.
VardaValar1: The Teleri would share their ships when they saw a good reason.
VardaValar1: ok
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*
IWF519: aiding Feanor was no good reason
IWF519: *listens*
Eonwe Valar: Homework assignment:
Eonwe Valar: Bring a topic to discuss to next week's meeting :}
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien topic, of course :}
Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting begins now:
IWF519: I must be off
VardaValar1: Thank you for joining in!
IWF519: It was a pleasure for sure
IWF519: finally I have someone to talk about these things with :-)
Eonwe Valar: Take care Eomer, and hope to see you here next week :}
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Namarie!
IWF519: Namarie
IWF519 has left the room.
VardaValar1: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}
ArPharazonV: I'll be leaving soon too, will save in a bit
VardaValar1: Thank you, Golden One. : )
Eonwe Valar: OK, time for a Gandalf Look-alike contest. Anyone who looks like an old man wins :}
VardaValar1: I can change to nearly any shape, but maybe not that gender. Have to check.
VardaValar1: How about if we look like Olorin? :-)'
Eonwe Valar: Nope, too hard for the Elf judges :}
VardaValar1: Ok. : )
Eonwe Valar: Elves don't always even know *if* there's a Maia around, let alone *which* Maia it is :}
VardaValar1: They do seem to recognize a Maia when they see one, if it's at least visible.
VardaValar1: Must be something in the elvish fea that recognizes, not so pent inside the hroa.
ArPharazonV: did they recognize Gandalf as a maia?
ArPharazonV: well, I'm sure Cirdan did, but the others?
Eonwe Valar: Elrond and Galadriel knew I suspect.
VardaValar1: Legolas reacted when he saw Gandalf and the Balrog both.
VardaValar1: He bowed to Gandalf the White. Remember him doing that for anyone else?
ArPharazonV: hmm, true
ArPharazonV: still, he's Elven nobility
ArPharazonV: did the Elven populace recognize Gandalf
ArPharazonV: ?
Eonwe Valar: Noldor maybe.
VardaValar1: I think you are asking if the Silvans knew? We don't have any examples of Gandalf being around them.
Eonwe Valar: Not sure about Nandor and the others.
ArPharazonV: the Noldor of Rivendell, whatever Elves lived at the Grey Havens...
VardaValar1: Legolas was Sindarin.
ArPharazonV: the Elves of Lothlorien?
VardaValar1: They mourned Gandalf as if he were extremely great.
ArPharazonV: but how great? :-)
VardaValar1: Galadriel certainly knew. She could have told her people something.
ArPharazonV: ok, saving and sending
Eonwe Valar: OK