Valar Guild

June 21, 2009 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00?)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (7)
    AriehnV (presided over Tolkien), ArPharazonV, FladrifV, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, luthienathariel, pallandovalar, VardaValar1 (presided over business meeting)

Meeting begins
    Bubble Tanks 2
    Chess, more chess
       Argent Dawn server
       Lothar server
       Uldaman server
    Arien's topic: Being caught between two worlds in the LotR.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar :-)
VardaValar1: updating AIM
ArPharazonV: aiya
VardaValar1: Happy Father's Day :-)
VardaValar1: I may crash during this update.
VardaValar1 has left the room.
FladrifV has entered the room.
FladrifV: hail arphar
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Varda was just here, but she's crashing or something due to updating aim
ArPharazonV: A-ha! I got my tier 8.5 chestpiece
ArPharazonV: *flexes*
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya - got the new AIM installed.
FladrifV: aiya
ArPharazonV: aiya
VardaValar1: Happy Father's Day, Fladrif :-)
ArPharazonV: Varda, I got my tier 8.5 chestpiece in WoW just now *nodnods* *bounces*
VardaValar1: Grats!!
VardaValar1: Having trouble inviting groups to the chat now. Must have a new setting for it.
VardaValar1: In the US at least, today is Father's Day. I can't stay long, lot of US won't be staying or coming.
FladrifV: ah ok
FladrifV: that explains :-)
VardaValar1: Still don't see a way to invite groups. Some update.
FladrifV: happy fathersday then for you
ArPharazonV: indeed, happy father's day!
VardaValar1: Doing every invite singly is not going to be good.
FladrifV: we can help
VardaValar1: Should not be like that.
VardaValar1: back
VardaValar1: The kids and I were gaming with Fangorn in WoW.
VardaValar1: for Father's Day.
ArPharazonV: midsummer fest?
FladrifV: midsommar fest
FladrifV: :-)
VardaValar1: Something we can all do together for Father's Day.
VardaValar1: Fangorn being the father.
AriehnV has entered the room.
luthienathariel has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien and Luthien :-)
AriehnV: aiye all :-)
luthienathariel: Mae govannen :-)

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
luthienathariel: and happy Tarnin Austa
VardaValar1: Aye, Happy Father's Day. :-)
luthienathariel: that, too
luthienathariel: I meant the Gates of Summer though
VardaValar1: Eonwe is at work right now.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Indis :-)
karakedi25: aiya!
karakedi25 has left the room.
VardaValar1: Since it's Father's Day, we need to keep this meeting short.
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: Nothing new to report for the website, some work that hasn't gone online yet in the Stories section.

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Did anyone do any gaming that wasn't WoW or LotRO? :-)
ArPharazonV: bubble tanks 2!
VardaValar1: Sounds cute
ArPharazonV: little online flash game where you're a small tank made of bubbles and travel through a large network of bigger bubbles
VardaValar1: Sauron and Gimli have been doing tabletop D&D.
ArPharazonV: you kill other tanks which leave bubbles, which you use to grow
ArPharazonV: if you get hit, you lose bubbles
ArPharazonV: if you get enough bubbles, you can tech out to a new tank-form
VardaValar1: Neat : )
VardaValar1: Any other?
ArPharazonV: nope, that's it for me... maybe Fladrif did some more chess?
VardaValar1: On to WoW while Flad is away.
VardaValar1: Anything to mention from Argent Dawn?
luthienathariel: *gives some pokon to Tree*
FladrifV: *tree awakes*
luthienathariel: ah
VardaValar1: Ok, Flad, go ahead.
luthienathariel: *pushes Tree to centre stage*
ArPharazonV: raiding going well, first kills all around in Ulduar... *and waves chestpiece around*
VardaValar1: Very good, Phar!
ArPharazonV: *walks off stage*
FladrifV: *tree feels a bit unconfortable on the stage*
FladrifV: championchip chess till waiting for next round
FladrifV: should be soonish
AriehnV: *have seen Menelvagor and Cala in valar channal* in betweeen shout
ArPharazonV: true!
ArPharazonV: I've seen both of you as well
VardaValar1: Very good. Seen Valandil or Helm?
luthienathariel: *can't hear what the Tree says*
ArPharazonV: 'fraid not
AriehnV: Helm might want to come after Wintergrasp in ten mins but who knows how long we take to lose or really hold it again
FladrifV: *walks away from the stage*
ArPharazonV: *cleans up the leaves from the stage*
VardaValar1: WoW Lothar and Uldaman have been busy, especially Uldaman server, with Fangorn, Elwing, Eowyn, Sauron, and Varda
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: back, I think
VardaValar1: We are trying to do WoW gaming today for Fangorn for Father's Day.
VardaValar1: Welcome back, Indis. :0
VardaValar1: :-)
karakedi25: thanks
VardaValar1: In LotRO,
VardaValar1: A new expansion is coming out Tuesday, and we've been running more high level instances with all Valar.
VardaValar1: Indis, did you want to tell about LotRO a little?
karakedi25: not prepared to, but I guess I can say that we have been working on building our teamwork and learning some of the instances in Moria for acquiring radiance gear...
karakedi25: and it has been tough but fun. We have begun with what seem like the easiest ones, and they have been a lot of work. I'm happy to see us doing this.
VardaValar1: Lot of leveling and crafting for members, Indis being a main crafting helper. Well done. :-)
karakedi25: I especially like the development of teamwork, and as a newbie to the kinship, I find it a good way to get to know kinmates.
AriehnV: And Indis has been helping my burglar too on wednesday :-)_
karakedi25: Indis approves of burglars ;-)
karakedi25: (she has one herself)
AriehnV: Her main and someone else of the new members took me around great barrows again
karakedi25: yes, that was fun
AriehnV: second half next week ;-)
AriehnV: need to pick up that quest from adso
karakedi25: lots of ghosties and ghoulies await you :-)
AriehnV: hehe :-)
karakedi25: so that is kind of it from my point of view...Varda may have jmore to say
VardaValar1: Ok, no, trying to make a quick meeting.
VardaValar1: Any other news so we don't go tooooo fast? :-)
VardaValar1: Fladrif, you had some more news?
AriehnV: no none from me nor shadow who is peering over my shoulders  [Note: Shadow is a cat.]
FladrifV: the match with menel ended in my favour
luthienathariel: *pushes tree back*
FladrifV: maybe some rematch planned later
AriehnV: grats Ent :-)
FladrifV: so anyone else, step forward for a challange
luthienathariel: chess only?
FladrifV: *leaves the stage thanks for your extra time*
luthienathariel: ok
ArPharazonV: come over here and I'll play a game of chess with you ;-)
luthienathariel: lol
FladrifV: other games are welcome
ArPharazonV: when are you bringing that hardware over anyway!
FladrifV: soonish
FladrifV: !
luthienathariel: yeahish
luthienathariel: ;-)
FladrifV: *pushesh arphar to side window*

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
ArPharazonV: *gets pushed off by a tree*
FladrifV: lol
VardaValar1: Arien will be conducting the Tolkien chat, has a nifty topic.
VardaValar1: I have to leave, but would dearly like to see how the chat came out!
luthienathariel: :-)
karakedi25: Is someone keeping a log?
FladrifV: chat reports can be send
VardaValar1: Eonwe has an internet problem and is at work, probably won't be in.
ArPharazonV: good luck and have fun, Varda!
luthienathariel: have a good father's day Varda!
FladrifV: Ill log
ArPharazonV: and I'm sure both Flad and I are logging transcripts
AriehnV: aye good fathers day Varda
luthienathariel: I am always loggin
karakedi25: Enjoy, Varda ;-)
VardaValar1: Phar generally sends the log, but others can be helpful. Email to Varda.
VardaValar1: Thanks, enjoy the chat!
VardaValar1: Namarie
luthienathariel: ie you
FladrifV: have fun varda
VardaValar1: Your floor, Arien. :-)
AriehnV: Tolkien:
karakedi25: *wave*
FladrifV: its already dark here...
ArPharazonV: like the sun needs a stage to be noticed...
luthienathariel: yep and that on the Gates of SUmmer
AriehnV: here its light
VardaValar1 has left the room.
AriehnV: thus we have darkness and light at the same time
ArPharazonV: yin and yang?
FladrifV: where ever you go its always light ariehn
AriehnV: :-) which takes me to the topic of tonight
AriehnV: darkness and light .. shadow and sunshine .. sacrifice and victory
AriehnV: No sacrivfice , no victory , eh?
AriehnV: Last week i was watching a clip on you tube
AriehnV: a song called Between two worlds
AriehnV: Flad do u have the link ready?
ArPharazonV: *drumroll*
FladrifV: ill find it for you comming up
AriehnV: I d like u to watch that clip and discuss what u see and take from it
FladrifV: this one?
AriehnV: thats the one
AriehnV: the song is by Hammer fall but u will recognise the scenes :-)
ArPharazonV: this is the same song mentioned last week?
AriehnV: thats the same song aye but the topic never had a chance to come up
AriehnV: so i thought we might take it up now
AriehnV: or do u have a better idea?
ArPharazonV: I believe we did end up with a topic about sacrifice but I don't mind continuing :-)
AriehnV: i thought that the clips show quite well that everything that was connected with the ring comes at a great cost
AriehnV: or we see both good and bad coming from it but .. i mean its the one ring? can there be anything good?
karakedi25: I suggest that the song itself is addressing what it must be like to be enslaved to the ring.
AriehnV: i wonder itr would be could to be able to find this out how the song was inspired
AriehnV: but to stay at tolkien how in the book do we see this bi polarity?
ArPharazonV: being between 2 worlds? caught in personality and interests/
ArPharazonV: ?
karakedi25: conflict between selfish and more prosocial impulses
karakedi25: some get caught in the former and are vulnerable to losing a sense of self
ArPharazonV: the Ring corrupted Boromir to conflict with his interests, but his motives were never actually selfish: even in trying to take the Ring he thought he was doing the best for his people and Middle-Earth
ArPharazonV: brb, making food
karakedi25: selfish in that case in that he dismissed the bigger point of view for one that was based on a limited view of how to conduct conduct...
karakedi25: possibly based on a limited system of 'honor'
karakedi25: so he was, if not selfish, highly parochial
AriehnV: hmm .. i think the ring blurred his perception
AriehnV: it made him only see what it wanted Boromir to see
karakedi25: Boromir was a man of action, not reflection, and so he might have been more vulnerable to temptation...
karakedi25: and I can't help but suspect that he was drawn to the idea of power for himself, whether directly with the ring, or indirectly through the power of Gondor.
AriehnV: aye i guess it would have led there
AriehnV: thinking as the ring itself is a most powerful thing .. eventually it would take over control of Boromir and thus Gondor be under the rule of the Dark lord
AriehnV: that was no doubt the plan
karakedi25: assuming Sauron was aware of Boromir and his membership in the fellowship
karakedi25: that's another place where Boromir was limited--he didn't really listen when told with a great deal of evidence that the ring would take over it's bearer for the benefit of Sauron
karakedi25: In any case, we could say he lived between two worlds: his better nature and good will vs. the profound temptation of the ring and power.
karakedi25: Remember, Tolkien says in a number of places that people take power derived from evil with the intention of using it to do good, but they become corrupted in the end, and the Ring is a concrete way of illustrating that
AriehnV: indeed
AriehnV: how did it work on Frodo?
karakedi25: my view is that he took on the Ring as a burden, so it's work on him was slow and insidious, and against his will. However, being in Mordor intensified its effect, and Frodo broke.
karakedi25: *its work
karakedi25: that and deep fatigues
karakedi25: -s
AriehnV: mhh it was however a lot faster on him as on bilbo the ring finder
karakedi25: because he took it to Mordor, and his mental and physical being were highly stressed...
karakedi25: and he was more closely exposed to it daily
karakedi25: Bilbo thought it was a trinket. Frodo knew it was powerful, and he knew it could be used for good.
AriehnV: it could be used or couldnt?
karakedi25: He thought it could be
karakedi25: Does anyone else want to participate?
ArPharazonV: back from food
AriehnV: Aiyata golden one
ArPharazonV: and one must understand that Sauron gained a lot of strength between Bilbo's finding of the Ring and the Fellowship's quest
AriehnV: we are discussing how the ring worked on the fellow ship on each member or some of them , dont think we get through all , alas , dont want to take the meeting for ever
ArPharazonV: as he grew stronger, so did the Ring
ArPharazonV: and therefore Frodo was more easily broken in the end
karakedi25: Bilbo was protected all his life. In contrast, Frodo had none except his will and Sam, under dreadful circumstances.
karakedi25: And Galadriel's gift.
karakedi25: My guess is that Tolkien would have said that any of the Second Born (among which we can include Hobbits) would have broken.
karakedi25: And the more powerful the sooner.
ArPharazonV: Think about Bree... it's still pretty far from Mordor, and Frodo wasn't under that much stress... yet
ArPharazonV: but when he used the Ring, he was already more under attack by it than Bilbo ever seemed to be
karakedi25: of course the Nazgul were around then
ArPharazonV: that's true, that's true
karakedi25: as far as I know, they never came near Bilbo
AriehnV: and if i understand it right two of their most powerful leaders were in bree
ArPharazonV: would their presence have strengthened the Ring, or simply influenced its effect?
karakedi25: either one, I'd think, with similar results
AriehnV: the ring obviously called out to them and made Frodo more vulneRAble for them#
karakedi25: also, Frodo never fully recovered from his Morgul-blade wound.
ArPharazonV: that was way after the incident I mentioned though :-)
AriehnV: that attack was bout a fortnight after the attack at the inn?
karakedi25: yes, but it contributed to his later breakdown....and the incident in Bree was indeed the malign influence of the ring
karakedi25: and was yet another event burdening Frodo's memories
karakedi25: Another thing that was different for Bilbo and Frodo is that B didn't have to worry about the welfare of companions in the same way as F did. Bilbo was an employee; Frodo was the leader of the group of four.
karakedi25: And felt responsible not to endanger them
ArPharazonV: I wonder if Frodo worrying about not letting the Ring influence him did not have the opposite effect
ArPharazonV: the more he worried, the weaker his mind became
karakedi25: it certainly could have reduced his resistance and mental resourcess, as anxiety often willl
ArPharazonV: *nod*
AriehnV: *agrees a hundered percent*
ArPharazonV: Bilbo of course had no such worry... by not knowing the effect of the Ring, it had less effect on him?
AriehnV: true bilbo didnt know what he had
ArPharazonV: ignorance is bliss *smile*
karakedi25: So if we think about Frodo's journey, we can see stress, worry, and pressure ascending to a kind of crescendo in Mordoe
AriehnV: certainly in this case
karakedi25: yes, Bilbo was blissfully ignorant
karakedi25: The Hobbit is, after all, a light-hearted story, in spite of the violence and adventures.
karakedi25: LOTR is not.
ArPharazonV: add to that the fact he got closer and closer to Sauron during that journey, who had also been growing in power
karakedi25: And the Sil even less so.
ArPharazonV: and it's no wonder why Frodo cracked after having the ring less than 20 years while Bilbo held on to it for 60 ;-)
pallandovalar has entered the room.
karakedi25: yes, so much explains his breakdown in the Cracks of ,Doom, where the pressure must have been all but unbearable.
AriehnV: Aiya Orome :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya Pallando
karakedi25: Welcome Orome :-)
ArPharazonV: the Ring would immediately assert a power over the holder, making him increasingly unable to let it go or destroy it... even Bilbo was troubled by that
karakedi25: yes, it would immediately begin to fray resistance
AriehnV: we are discussing the ring and its effect on bilbo and frodo , and had Boromir before u canme
ArPharazonV: The thing is that Frodo only had the chance to destroy it when he got to Mount Doom
ArPharazonV: before that, it was a thing of the future, and he wanted to keep it on him to that moment
ArPharazonV: he was eager to have the Ring one way or another, which only conflicted with his goal of destruction the moment came to let go
karakedi25: quite true, but no sane person would have made that journey without the intention of destroying it
karakedi25: Frodo lost his sanity briefly at the end.
ArPharazonV: there's a difference between planning to do something and actually doing it
karakedi25: yes, and the conflict was overwhelming
ArPharazonV: and while he may have primarily intended to destroy the Ring, there was also part of him that wanted to keep it as his own
karakedi25: *nod*
ArPharazonV: the conflict of interests only actually manifested itself when he was at his destination
ArPharazonV: so it's no wonder why he cracked at that same spot
karakedi25: it was probably working even before that, but he wasn't conscious of it
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: or he was conscious of it, but thought he would be able to overcome it when the time came to overcome it
ArPharazonV: which he didn't
karakedi25: I guess we can't know that though
AriehnV: i think he doubted the whole way but he knew that there was no other way to get rid of the ring
AriehnV: than to destroy it , he knew it and was concious of the possible cost
karakedi25: yes, he must have felt somewhat trapped
ArPharazonV: *nod*
AriehnV: he was willing to sacrifice himself for the good of iddleearth
karakedi25: As Boromir was not
AriehnV: mind u .. he would have failed in the end without Gollum a most curious means of accomplishing the whole thing
karakedi25: yes, and Tolkien foreshadowed that throughout, with remarks about the value of mercy and the idea that Gollum still had a role to play
ArPharazonV: indeed
AriehnV: indeed
AriehnV: gollum is a very interesting figure
AriehnV: utterly wretched .. driven by his own hunger for the ring , to have it back
karakedi25: an example of the corruption of the Ring on a being of little innate power
AriehnV: but in this way he was also the one to push Frodo over his limits , maybe when nothing else could have driven him on
ArPharazonV: and yet, partly a good creature, loyal to his master and his own word... he wanted to be free of it but ultimately couldn't let it be destroyed
ArPharazonV: kind of like Frodo perhaps
karakedi25: We could see him as Frodo's shadow, in a way--in the literal and Jungian senses
AriehnV: remember the last climb up the slope to the cracks of Doom?
karakedi25: yes, mostly
AriehnV: frodo was almost too weak and too willingless to go on
AriehnV: Gollum jumped at him and tried to force the ring from him
ArPharazonV: which was just the boost Frodo needed to go on
ArPharazonV: interesting... it was an attack on his ownership of the Ring, yet it propelled him forward on his goal to get rid of it
karakedi25: Also an attack on his mission, with which he was identified.
karakedi25: (in his own mind)
ArPharazonV: I think the dual nature of Frodo's feelings for the Ring was already showing there
karakedi25: in some ways, Gollum, as one of hobbit origin as well, personified the dark side of the duality
ArPharazonV: in a way, perhaps he already cracked, but still he was able to push onwards
karakedi25: or at least was cracking
ArPharazonV: yep
karakedi25: *can't believe she's indulging in litcrit*
ArPharazonV: litcrit?
AriehnV: *gg* ur doing very well and i love this disussion
karakedi25: literary criticism
AriehnV: and i guess we could lead it to ad infinitum
AriehnV: but .. *points to watch*
ArPharazonV: well, that's a large part of the Tolkien-meetings, really :-) or at least what we strive for in the Tolkien part
karakedi25: ok, just not something I've done a lot of
AriehnV: i think we covered the way the ring worked on Boromir, Frodo, Bilbo and Gollum quite well
AriehnV: shall we call it?
karakedi25: That might be enough for the time being.
AriehnV: *bangs gavel* aftermeeting
karakedi25: Unfortunately we don't have two of the major players in the roleplay to discuss that :-(
karakedi25: Thanks for leading a fun discussion, Ariehnv
AriehnV: I thank you both for taking part in it and for our silent listeners
AriehnV: Phara u have saved it ?
ArPharazonV: yep
ArPharazonV: but I'll save again before I leave
AriehnV: cool :-)
AriehnV: Namarie for now folks rest well and see u next sunday
karakedi25: Take care, Ariehn :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
karakedi25: goodbye all :-)
karakedi25 has left the room.
luthienathariel: :-)
ArPharazonV: note that this'll probably make the transcript ;-)
ArPharazonV: unless we tell Varda to cut it off
luthienathariel: lol
ArPharazonV: heh, Guust Flater.. I think I have an album lying around somewhere
luthienathariel: he's brilliant
luthienathariel: I was testing my newly acquired scan/print/etceterer
ArPharazonV: ah, neat
luthienathariel: k, something completely different ...
ArPharazonV: hmm, I've been browsing and updating myself on my favorite webcomics... and two of my favorites just got some *very* interesting plottwists
luthienathariel: oh
ArPharazonV: it's a good day :-)
luthienathariel: which are those?
ArPharazonV: in this case, Goblins, and College Roomies From Hell (I only saw the last 3 updates today)
luthienathariel: (btw that YT link is a handpainted abstract animation movie)
luthienathariel: ah
ArPharazonV: abstract, hmm...
ArPharazonV: it does seem a bit... how's the word...
ArPharazonV: psychedelic?
luthienathariel: that would be rather avant la lettre :D
ArPharazonV: I think the main bad guy in Goblins just had the tables turned on him....
luthienathariel: oh
ArPharazonV: but no spoilers!
luthienathariel: *pfew*
ArPharazonV: granted, there are other villains being alluded to, but... this was major *grin*
ArPharazonV: nice youtube movie, but I find it gets boring after a few minutes
luthienathariel: oh
ArPharazonV: but that might be my taste, or the fact that I'm getting tired :-)
ArPharazonV: I'll re-watch it tomorrow
luthienathariel: :-)
FladrifV: namarie!
ArPharazonV: namarie
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript