Valar Guild

July 26, 2009 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00?)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (7)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, fladrifv, Indis-(V)/karakedi25, Menelvagor Valar, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
Membership happenings:
    Telchar-(V) is our new Full Member this week, from LotRO.
    Ar-Pharazon  will not be present at the next meeting, so another transcript saver would be appreciated.
    Games Page major work is complete. New projects and updating are next.
    Community frames: need guild input on a change already made. Should we go back to not opening the Forum, Links, and./or Games Page inside the main website frame?
    Various games
    WoW: Europe, Americas
    Forum role-play discussion

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1 (4:00:52 PM): Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: right on schedule eh? :-)
ArPharazonV: a Vala is never late....
VardaValar1: The aiya was. :-)
VardaValar1: lol
VardaValar1: I was looking for a way to invite a group the way we did in previous versions. Individually is slow.
VardaValar1: There is something called a blast group, to IM all of them at once individually.
ArPharazonV: hmm, don't know about that
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe and Fladrif :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya all.
ArPharazonV: Aiya both o' ya
VardaValar1: Ok, Eonwe showed me that the new buddy chat invitation is now at the top instead of on the group bar, under AIM.
VardaValar1: We still seem to be the only ones coming at the moment.

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: It's good to see you three. : )
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: We have a new Full Member: Telchar-(V), from LotRO.
VardaValar1: He was scouted by Falathar-(V) and tested by Melkor-(Valar).
VardaValar1: He survived. : )
VardaValar1: Does anyone have any further membership news?
ArPharazonV: well, this'll be my last meeting before I skip one :-)
ArPharazonV: but in 2 weeks I'll be here again!
VardaValar1: Missing only one is doing fabulously well. : )
VardaValar1: Who will be taking Phar's transcripting duties for next week?
VardaValar1: I can do it, just covered with bad timestamps.
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: Aiya all :-)
VardaValar1: Welcome, Arien : )
VardaValar1: Did you have any membership news?
AriehnV: just that my parents are well as far as things go .. my mum is on crutches and cant do housework
AriehnV: and we had fun using a big strimmer cutting high grass around the house :-)
AriehnV: thats it
VardaValar1: Have to keep the snakes from moving in. : )
AriehnV: havent seen any snakes in the Coolin Hills yet but i have heard rumours
AriehnV: but one might find the odd tourist .. or midge . grin
VardaValar1: hehe

VardaValar1: On to Web News:
VardaValar1: Eonwe, go ahead.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: The Games Page now has sortable tables for both our Lord of the Rings Online branch and our World of Warcraft branches.
Eonwe Valar: Also, the Links Pages are back up and working.
Eonwe Valar: So, that should be the last of the update work for the Games Page since switching to xml files for storing data.
ArPharazonV: hmm, nice work
ArPharazonV: what's the next project then? :-)
Eonwe Valar: From here on out I should have all new work for the Games Page :}
VardaValar1: Nifty. We can find someone by the name we're seeing on the game right then.
Eonwe Valar: I'm still deciding which of the many things I'd like to do to the Games Page is the more interesting one to do first :}
VardaValar1: That profession sorter is one they need to bring back in LotRO, handy thing.
VardaValar1: The (none) profession seems to come up on top, guess that makes sense.
Eonwe Valar: It's the way the xsl sort function sorts strings.
VardaValar1: Levels change so much that it would be hard to keep up with. Maybe just put it in when they hit max?
Eonwe Valar: Then it would be a long time before my characters had a level :}
VardaValar1: Oh, reminds me, one of our programmers said there's a way to stream the info off of the LotRO kinship info on the LotRO official site.
Eonwe Valar: If I keep them relatively up-to-date, then if not being perfect, it at least gives an idea at any one time what area the person is likely questing.
VardaValar1: That could save you a lot of updating if so.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, I'll see if I can look into that.
ArPharazonV: can keep them into categories, the levels I mean, like divide them in 5 equal categories...
ArPharazonV: what's max level now?
Eonwe Valar: 60
VardaValar1: 60, aye
ArPharazonV: then you can divide it into categories like 1-15, 15-30, etc.... would save some updating while still getting a general overview of the character's level
VardaValar1: I'm having some trouble reversing the sortable levels. It starts with the smallest.
ArPharazonV: instead of just mentioning it when they're max
VardaValar1: A range, neat idea.
VardaValar1: You can see we have quite a few max levels. : )
ArPharazonV: if you want you can make it 46-59 and save one for 60 so you know when it's actually maxed out
Eonwe Valar: It doesn't reverse
Eonwe Valar: All sorts are ascending in this version.
VardaValar1: Someone like Halbarad-(V) who has all his characters cross-guilded doesn't show in kinship, and is hard to track.
VardaValar1: okie dokie, long as we know how it operates
Eonwe Valar: Aye, which is why this only lists characters actually in the kinship :}
Eonwe Valar: Level I should probably switch to descending. That at least wouldn't be hard to do.
VardaValar1: If I give a list to you of members we call on at level 60 who are cross-guilded, would you like that included?
VardaValar1: We can table that for now. : )
VardaValar1: In a related web note, I may have made an error and need your comments.
VardaValar1: The frame navigation now puts all the sections inside the frame including the Games, Forum, and Links.
VardaValar1: We should probably stick to just who is willing to be in the kin for our list. This current system will be fine.
VardaValar1: Please take a look and see if you folks would prefer to drop the frames around Gaming, Links, Forum, or others that have been added.
VardaValar1: So far we have one vote for dropping the frame over Gaming.
ArPharazonV: I.... don't actually use frames much, and if I did I probably wouldn't notice them... so anything's fine with me
VardaValar1: Do you usually go in without frames then? It's also set up for that.
AriehnV: i ve just looked at both and i prefer without frames
AriehnV: looks nicer for me
VardaValar1: Thanks, good to know.
ArPharazonV: *shrug* for some reason I've got without frames on by default, so I just leave it at that
ArPharazonV: don't really prefer either way enough to change it
VardaValar1: To go into frames, you hit the Valar Guild gif on the starting up page.
VardaValar1: To go without frames, hit the links at the bottom.
ArPharazonV: *nod* I tend to do the latter
VardaValar1: Try hitting the Tolkien Site and see if you prefer the no-frames or the A-Z setup?
ArPharazonV: oh, right, that *is* useful
VardaValar1: You can change the size of the side frames.
VardaValar1: Ok, so maybe drop the frames for the community site and just leave them for the articles?
ArPharazonV: I tend to prefer to keep my options open, I mean, if you don't want frames, you can easily come in the other way, no?
VardaValar1: Aye, you can. It's set up for going both ways.
VardaValar1: You can skip the A-Z and any frames at all on the Tolkien Site also.
VardaValar1: Just hit No frames : )
VardaValar1: The site is a bit complicated and fiddly to try to accommodate the want-frames and don't-want-frames people.
ArPharazonV: so keeping both options open is not really an option?
VardaValar1: I already have all these options, and we also have Arveleg's tool bar.
VardaValar1: I was wondering which way people liked the most, so I could concentrate harder on it.
VardaValar1: I can return to the way of not using the frames to go around the Games, Forum, and Links page, merely jump you to it.
VardaValar1: If the frames are only useful for that one part of the Tolkien Site, I can pull back to just using them there.
VardaValar1: Ok, probably too tired from days of wrestling webwork on another site to think straight right now about any website. :-)
AriehnV: sounds good to me actually
VardaValar1: Any further web news?

VardaValar1: Gaming:
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya Menel.
VardaValar1: Which non-WoW and non-LotRO games have you folks been enjoying this past week?
VardaValar1: Aiya Menelvagor : )
Menelvagor Valar: Sorry, was a bit held up in Ulduar ^^
Menelvagor Valar: I've been playing Star Ocean on Xbox 360 ^^
ArPharazonV: ah, yes
ArPharazonV: I've been playing some other games too
Menelvagor Valar: One of the latest of the Squaresoft line :-)
ArPharazonV: but will mention when Menel's done :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Well, it's another RPG, land based real-time combat, includes magic (called symbology), but has nice story elements and aside from that it's land based it's actually in space, if that makes any sense ^^
Menelvagor Valar: Another successful Final Fantasy clone if I might say so :-)
ArPharazonV: so.... another planet, or in space represented by a land-terrain?
Menelvagor Valar: Planets so far.
Menelvagor Valar: haven't had any combats in actual space.
Menelvagor Valar: but I've just started this week, so it's still a bit early to tell :-)
Menelvagor Valar: And that concludes it :-)
ArPharazonV: reminds me of Rage of Mages in a bit....
ArPharazonV: * - in
ArPharazonV: which takes place in a fantasy world that's almost completely consumed by arcane magic of some kind (forgot the whole story) and what's left now is small kingdoms, like islands in an ocean, worlds on their own, and you end up travelling between them a bit
ArPharazonV: anyway
ArPharazonV: I played 2 games besides WoW this week, and one of them is about an hour of Warcraft 3 because my playing time running out caught me by surprise :-)
ArPharazonV: but that was short-lived, because the next day I got a new gamecard ;-)
ArPharazonV: just some custom maps on, a new and changed version of some of the maps I played years ago
ArPharazonV: the other game is Red Alert 3, which I installed a few days ago and have been playing for an hour or 2 every day
ArPharazonV: looks like a good game so far, a few different features than its predecessor but I think I can get used to it
Menelvagor Valar: Ooh... can you play that one online Pharzie?
ArPharazonV: there's also some features that remind me strongly of Battle for Middle-Earth 1 and 2 (also by EA games), most notably the style of the interface menus and the save-game system
ArPharazonV: hmm, that should be possible yes, though I'd probably need to open up a few firewall exceptions for the ports
Menelvagor Valar: cool. would love to play a game or two with you.
Menelvagor Valar: You know that RA3 has a co-op availability for story missions?
ArPharazonV: also, Red Alert 3 has a sort of "special powers" list for each faction which is similar to the Ring- and Evenstar-abilities from BfME 2, if you remember those
ArPharazonV: you can get points for kills, and with points you get new points you can put into those powers in special series
ArPharazonV: yeah, I noticed, only halfway through the Soviet campaign so far though, so I'd like to test them on my own first
ArPharazonV: you get an AI co-commander that way, which is helpful and annoying at the same time in my opinion, still haven't found a way to keep them permanently defensive so I can take the glory instead of them having decimated the enemy before I even get a decent-sized army ;-)
ArPharazonV: I mean, as it stands now, they'll have the enemy main base heavily under siege while I'm still working on the bonus objectives, which is a bit silly!
Menelvagor Valar: never had any trouble with that :P
ArPharazonV: maybe I should've gone for hard difficulty instead of medium :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I usually found myself doing all the work on my own, since the AI usually blew up their own stuff as soon as they more than a bucket of rust :-)
ArPharazonV: well, maybe it's just in the earlier missions that they're so competent then!
ArPharazonV: last mission I played, it ended with me having to guard a building we captured from the attacks by a huge enemy base.... so I gave my ally the order to attack that base ;-) they got completely slaughtered leaving me to do the defending on my own, but I managed
ArPharazonV: sacrificing my ally on a heavily fortified position is fun, I admit
Menelvagor Valar: haha :-)
ArPharazonV: so that pretty much ends my report, but my sources tell me that Fladrif has a few things to say in the "other games" section, so I hereby surrender the floor to the ent
Eonwe Valar: Fladrif, you there? :}
fladrifv: I am
fladrifv: *walks carefully on stage*
fladrifv: I just wanted to say that I finished part one of monkey island
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: How was it?
fladrifv: it was very funny but a bit simple
fladrifv: for the more then one winter old monkey players
fladrifv: waiting for part 2 will be released soon
fladrifv: next to this I won a sl chess championship and going strong in the other championship
VardaValar1: Woot! Way to go, Ent!
fladrifv: thank you Varda
fladrifv: that was all from out of the forrest
Menelvagor Valar: speaking of ents... nah, too specific wow news :P
VardaValar1: Ok, on to WoW
VardaValar1: hold it
VardaValar1: \
VardaValar1: Was Fladrif done?
ArPharazonV: his last statement seems to imply so
Menelvagor Valar: or he's just gone entish on us ^^

VardaValar1: Ok, on to WoW
VardaValar1: Argent Dawn, have you seen any of the folk we don't get to see?
Menelvagor Valar: I've seen Phar and Arien pop in and out, but that's about it.
AriehnV: Same story with Menal and Phara from me
VardaValar1: No Valandil, Helm, Galadriel, others?
AriehnV: i ve seen from the member list in the valar guild branch that Valandil hasnt been active for over t
AriehnV: a month
AriehnV: on all his characters
VardaValar1: Might be having a computer problem?
AriehnV: maybe .. or a time problem he seems to be very busy
AriehnV: dont know what he actually does
ArPharazonV: I'll check on his character in my guild, see if he's been online there
VardaValar1: Thanks, just hope he's ok. Times have been weird for everyone.
Menelvagor Valar: well, it is summer break.
VardaValar1: Aye. : )
Menelvagor Valar: perfectly possible he's on vacation somewhere.
VardaValar1: Anything else Europe wants to mention about WoW?
Menelvagor Valar: My Druid has specced out of bear tank for the first time in over 2 years *cries*
AriehnV: i have recreated my first Paladin Finduilasse (there is a story in the rp part on the wow Argent Dawn forum on the website)
AriehnV: *pats Menelvagor*
AriehnV: Finduilaswen and he have found a nice rp guild that seems to be very active .. Eternal Dusk
AriehnV: and the drood has gotten to level 75 .. and last but not least there is a new DK called Vahna in the valar channel
AriehnV: thats it from me :-)
VardaValar1: Who is running the Valar Guild branch in Europe?
AriehnV: (obviously from Vana)
AriehnV: me
VardaValar1: But aren't you busy with all those other groups?
AriehnV: there is nothing happening in Valar anyway its dead bank space
AriehnV: and i deleted my bonnets on auchindoun
ArPharazonV: ooh, bank space *ponders*
Menelvagor Valar: *pats Arien*
AriehnV: didnt work out as i hoped
VardaValar1: The Steel Bonnets? Did they all leave?
AriehnV: nah i dissolved the guild .. Online times didnt work out or people werent interested to get strong enought to raid either pve or pvp , they only wanted boosts or robbed the guild bank
AriehnV: there were a few exceptions like Helm and three others
AriehnV: but with four man you cant run Ulduar ;-)
VardaValar1: ouch, just out for what they could take from you.
AriehnV: aye and after we blocked the bank access for gold , most disappeared or became inactive
AriehnV: sad story but we had some fun and i found a few friends there
AriehnV: basically i found it unfair for them that they couldnt run raids or heroics with our guild
AriehnV: i felt that i stole their time and wasted mine
AriehnV: so i thought it best solution to disband it
VardaValar1: So the guild was just for the top level runs, no just questing and crafting together, I guess?
AriehnV: nah it was planned for that as well and there was cooperation in crafting , a lol but only trhe four or five of us
VardaValar1: That sounds about like our WoW group, just enough to make a group.
ArPharazonV: *shrug* 4 or 5 regular members is enough to keep a small casual guild alive, or mine would be dead a long time ago ;-)
VardaValar1: party, I mean.
AriehnV: but when i set whatever runs up people either didnt sign up at all , or when they signed up they didnt turn up
VardaValar1: We do an awful lot of our stuff as spur of the moment for small group things.
VardaValar1: When I try to set up times, people suddenly just disappear...
AriehnV: they didnt ask .. they werent interested , when we asked we sorted out some elite quests but couldnt get no five man together .. it was all very disappointing and frustrating
VardaValar1: ok, understood, sorry to hear that.

AriehnV: .i had pondered quitting wow for a while
VardaValar1: Maybe it's just the running things that is getting you down?
VardaValar1: You just need to join an established group?
AriehnV: its not me Varda .. i am trying to get things together to work as a group
ArPharazonV: *nod* might want to try just being a regular member in an established group, join things other people organize instead of trying to organize it all yourself
AriehnV: its not my fault
Menelvagor Valar: I agree Arien!
VardaValar1: No one said it was. Just maybe now it's time to take a breather?
ArPharazonV: it's not, but you don't have to be the one responsible for getting the group together
Menelvagor Valar: Well, Phar, if you really want to make something work, you do have to put effort into it.
Menelvagor Valar: And I believe Arien's done everything possible, it just didn't work out.
ArPharazonV: of course, but you don't have to try to be the leader all the time
AriehnV: thats why i am in Eternal Dusk now and do rp a bit (fun with Kandin and some other guy, we spent hours in an impromptu session in a cleared Karazahn .. grin)
ArPharazonV: unless you actually want to be in control, but that's another matter
Eonwe Valar: I believe the point is, sometimes even the leaders need a breather.
AriehnV: i never wanted to .. i always landed in that positon somehow *shrug*
VardaValar1: It happens when no one else wants to do it.
Menelvagor Valar: well, the weird thing with Argent Dawn, and in my small escapes to other servers, I haven't seen much difference, is that almost everyone is mostly interested in raiding, and very little else.
AriehnV: thats the way it is .. and usually i say lets try at least before we give up
ArPharazonV: well, I'm in a guild, 2 comm channel, 1 ex-comm channel, and an oldschoolraid channel
Menelvagor Valar: And I've seen large guilds putting random events together, and be quite successful, but if you have a guild with 100+ members, and 20+ turn up for an event, that doesn't bode well for smaller groups.
ArPharazonV: if I really want to go somewhere to some specific target location I can ask around in several locations, and if not, there's always someone making a group to somewhere
AriehnV: aye and the problem was also that a lot were alts of mains in established raid guilds so folk tended to spend more time on their mains
ArPharazonV: maybe the key to getting to do a lot is not organizing everything, but simply broadening your field of friends
Menelvagor Valar: Phar, it's still raids you're going to.
AriehnV: thats why i tried tto get that up to hold them .. to insitgate them to level up
ArPharazonV: true, but it's not my only interest, and it's definitely not the only target I *can* do
Menelvagor Valar: The entire atmosphere in AD revolves around raids, and there is a very very small minority that actually enjoys the game for the game and the social activities.
ArPharazonV: there's always people up for anything, including 5-mans, if you know enough people
Menelvagor Valar: And out of those, it's barely a handful who are interested in LotR, and out of that handful, half can't make it on any given day due to raids.
AriehnV: not if they always are stuck in Vault of A.. mpty bot or Naxx or ulduar
AriehnV: i have my online times too
Menelvagor Valar: exactly.
AriehnV: i still work
Menelvagor Valar: That's why I gave up a lot sooner than you did Arien.
Menelvagor Valar: So at the very least, you get my admiration for going on for as long as you did.
VardaValar1: I have a family, work, and do the website. It's a good thing I just like making friends. : )
AriehnV: we survived .. 8 months i think
AriehnV: The Bonnets i mean
AriehnV: longer than a lot guilds :-)
VardaValar1: Maybe you guys need to come to LotRO. Our guild has been going since the start of beta and is growing while others are cratering.
VardaValar1: Over two years.
ArPharazonV: my point is, *you* don't have to be the one to gather up the people in one small location to be able to do stuff, you don't have to blame yourself if it doesn't work out, and there's always other ways besides setting up a guild just to do 5-mans
ArPharazonV: and sure, a lot of people raid (including me), but any time you're not raiding you can always find groups to wherever you want to go if you can broaden your perspective outside the "guild" range
VardaValar1: You knew I was going to say that, and you can laugh now. : )
Menelvagor Valar: Pharz, does anywhere include a normal run to deadmines?
Menelvagor Valar: for example?
AriehnV: i made the mistake of not gearing characters up from scratch and couldnt find group who willing to help my characters .. :-( thats why i started my pali new
AriehnV: to avoid mistakes i made
ArPharazonV: *blinks* that's a bit harder, but that's more related to the focus of the game instead of the focus of the people, classic instances are always put to the back, but you should have no trouble finding 5-man instances in Northrend of perhaps even Outland
ArPharazonV: and you can always ask in the zone itself ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: Outland instances have gone mostly out of grace as well.
ArPharazonV: not if you know the right channels
Menelvagor Valar: well, that's the issue.
Menelvagor Valar: that's a very small minority.
ArPharazonV: true, but you don't have to be the one to get that minority together in the same place, because they're already organized
Menelvagor Valar: If you sit in regular looking for group for an hour, you'll find maybe 1 or 2 vanilla instances being asked for, a handful to a dozen TBC, 2 dozen normal northrend ones and half a million heroics and raids.
AriehnV: never mind folks life goes on wow goes on the fun goes on :-) each in our own way
Menelvagor Valar: How many of them like and have read LotR Phar?
ArPharazonV: it's not all up to *you*, you can easily take a breather and join other people's efforts when yours go wrong, because it doesn't all depend on yours
AriehnV: but so does the meeting and so does time
ArPharazonV: I did not realise that was part of the issue, Menel
ArPharazonV: those Bonnets, were they Lotr-oriented?
Menelvagor Valar: For the valar guild branch on AD it is Phar :P
AriehnV: nope lol the Steel Bonnets where a bit Scottish organised
ArPharazonV: yes, but we were not discussing that in particular I think, unless I completely missed the opening premise of the situation
AriehnV: after the border raiders of 12th to 18th century
Menelvagor Valar: Well, either I have misread the meaning, or you've indeed completely missed it ^^
Menelvagor Valar: But regardless, Arien does have a point :-)
ArPharazonV: what I gathered was that Arien was down and contemplating taking a break from WoW because her efforts to form groups/guilds for 5-mans and raids were not going well
ArPharazonV: there was no emphasis on Lotr or the Valar-branch
AriehnV: aye it was general wow aye , and Phara is correct
AriehnV: but i hope it wil change now within the new guild where i am just a member
AriehnV: the guys seem to be enough instance and raid experienced that they probably get runs together if they want them ;-)
ArPharazonV: and unless you actually want your group to emphasize what you want (in this case Lotr) there is no reason for you to have to organize everything you need, and there's nothing wrong with being a regular member to another group (or assemblage of channels in my case) to do your 5-mans and raids
ArPharazonV: indeed, Arien
ArPharazonV: and I hope you find what you're looking for in that group :-)
Menelvagor Valar: btw, phar, you know the propug channel? :-)
ArPharazonV: I've heard of it, though I make no use of it personally :-)
ArPharazonV: but it would be a good example of what I have been talking about
VardaValar1: So you found that making a group was hard even if it didn't have the LotR and courtesy requirements.
AriehnV: issht now boys
AriehnV: ;-)
AriehnV: aye that i did Varda
Menelvagor Valar: Never had any such problems myself really... at least, not where regular grouping is concerned.
AriehnV: but then politeness , courtesy was always requirement in my guilds :-D
AriehnV: not written down , but it was something i tried very hard to keep up and had a firm hand
AriehnV: a gentle but firm hand
AriehnV: Well friends, valarites , sorry to have held you up for so long#
VardaValar1: Ok, I get the point. You guys don't think the Valar branch is a possibility in WoW.
VardaValar1: Moving on.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, do you have a report for WoW Americas? I fear I have been away from all games this last week.
AriehnV: Namarie for now .. i move on too , have to i fear
AriehnV: getting sleepy
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Arien! have a good night, and I wish you a pleasant 2 weeks in WoW :-)
ArPharazonV: ..that is, if you still read this on the transcript ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately, I didn't get to spend much time in gaming either. A good chunk of my spare time was in working on the Games Page.
VardaValar1: So much for the rp discussion.
Eonwe Valar: I did, however, get Exalted with the Kirin Tor, and got my Traveller's Tundra mammoth for 16k gold.
VardaValar1: Woot!
ArPharazonV: oh, grats
ArPharazonV: still working on that, currently at 9k gold, working on Shen'dralar rep is a bit expensive ;-)
VardaValar1: My family has been on both Lothar and Uldaman, and I was on during the first of the week.
VardaValar1: We have been leveling, crafting, and questing together in both places.
VardaValar1: Elwing has been running with us both places and moving up very well.
VardaValar1: Dracxil showed up in the friend channel also. : )
VardaValar1: We chatted a bit. : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe's brother is always a delight to have around.
VardaValar1: LotRO:
VardaValar1: We have our regular Monday Nornuan turtle raid.
VardaValar1: We do the high level quests and low levels.
VardaValar1: We work on book quests.
VardaValar1: We do crafting for ourselves and each other.
VardaValar1: The kinhouse tends to be stuffed.
VardaValar1: We picked up a new member this week and others either are working on joining or sticking around in our friend channel.
VardaValar1: We have plenty of folks, and are doing well.
VardaValar1: Any further business?

VardaValar1: On to Tolkien:
VardaValar1: We wanted to do some quick rp talk, sorry we lost Arien.
VardaValar1: Who is present?
VardaValar1: Me
ArPharazonV: me
Eonwe Valar: I
VardaValar1: Ok, here's what we were considering, but we really needed Estarion and Frali for this.
VardaValar1: We are coming up to the Enchanted River, in a steady rain.
VardaValar1: The boat and bank will be slippery.
VardaValar1: Estarion or Frali could have trouble with a horse or pony, and slip.
ArPharazonV: into the water?
VardaValar1: Either into it or nearly into it, up to the rp'ers. : )
VardaValar1: A rescuer reaching for one could get pulled along.
VardaValar1: The water is diluted, so the people could be groggy rather than falling asleep.
VardaValar1: We are aware that there are spiders and orcs camping against the rain not far downstream on opposite sides of the river.
VardaValar1: This gives suspense.
VardaValar1: If we want, some of us can get washed downstream together into one or the other camp's area.
Menelvagor Valar: sorry, was afk for a short duration, back now :-)
VardaValar1: They can either have to try to sneak by with a lot of suspense, or we can engage for a fight.
VardaValar1: Please scroll.
VardaValar1: What happens will depend on how you want to play it as individuals. : )
Menelvagor Valar: read up :-)
VardaValar1: We have a strong chance here to do some characterization and working together.
Menelvagor Valar: sounds like an idea :-)
VardaValar1: I can just see Estarion or Frali slipping and the other one, afraid of doing just that, is very sensitive to this and reaches out.
VardaValar1: Splash, both go downstream together.
ArPharazonV: sounds interesting!
VardaValar1: The others can try to reach them while trying to be quiet about it.
VardaValar1: We can use the boat, and we can try to slip along the bank. Or both.
Menelvagor Valar: well, there's one minor issue for me :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I am a scout, trained to be highly mobile in bad weather and terrain, so I don't see why a slippery river bank would be any trouble for Estarion.
ArPharazonV: you're on a horse :-)
VardaValar1: Right, the horse may also be to the side of you.
ArPharazonV: could have trouble controlling it on the bank
VardaValar1: The two of you are the candidates due to difficulties handling the horses.
Menelvagor Valar: Well, that kind of depends on the manner of crossing.
VardaValar1: It's in the rain, a muddy slope, trying to get on a boat. Not easy.
ArPharazonV: you attempt dismounting to enter the boat, make a wrong move, drop off just into the water ;0
ArPharazonV: * ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: if there's a boat or some such, it would be easy to ferry the horses and the pony over first by those who are adept if not expert at handling the horses, before Estarion and Frali.
VardaValar1: Frali is the most likely to slip, Estarion is the most likely to quickly notice and grab for him, but his horse doesn't cooperate.
VardaValar1: Figure out what kind of mishap could happen.
VardaValar1: The horse or pony could get upset by the situation.
Menelvagor Valar: but I agree that if we'd ferry the horses and the pony over, and as frali would try to get into the boat and slips, Estarion would reach for him, and the same scenario happens :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well now, that was a loud thundering...
Eonwe Valar: I may have to go shortly...
Menelvagor Valar: okay.
ArPharazonV: could work
ArPharazonV: they wash off, we follow by boat
Menelvagor Valar: But thing is, Varda, I never had any intention of taking the horse close to a dangerous river crossing.
karakedi25 has entered the room.
karakedi25: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Ok, so we have some idea of where we want to go with this.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya!
VardaValar1: You're late. : )
ArPharazonV: we could have us sneaking up to a camp while you 2 are captured, or you two succesfully sneaking but our boat making a noise...
karakedi25: so I am
Eonwe Valar: I think if there was a reason for urgency, one person ferrying each horse/pony across would be less optimal.
karakedi25: glad you were still here
ArPharazonV: or we could even have you wash up in orc camp while we alert the spiders on the other side ;-)
VardaValar1: Sorry, movie quote just asked to be said. ;-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya Indis!
Menelvagor Valar: True Eonwe, but then again, you know as well as I do that taking a shortcut so to speak may land you into hot water :-)
VardaValar1: We were discussing having a mishap at the Enchanted River while trying to use the boat in the rain.
Menelvagor Valar: And while the spiders and orcs are camped down, it would be more prudent to take a slightly longer time crossing, rather than taking foolish chances with inexperienced riders.
Eonwe Valar: It's also a good way to fill in the time we need to take up before we can arrive in Rivendell. You estimated it at what, a week more than I did?
Menelvagor Valar: I believe I did, but then again, I also believe that I admitted it is highly possible you are right.
Menelvagor Valar: Especially considering you have expert knowledge on your side, and I have instinct :-)
Eonwe Valar: It's been a while, so we both probably need to go over those numbers again.
VardaValar1: The idea is to have some tension and a chance to bond with each other. We can just barely manage to sneak past both groups, just nearly blowing it.
Menelvagor Valar: On which side were the spiders camped?
VardaValar1: Calculation helps one's instincts improve.
VardaValar1: Near side.
karakedi25: Wouldn't the time to Rivendell need to be time moving, rather than having mishaps that will add to the time. And agreed about the need for building cohesiona and mutual dependence.
VardaValar1: Both groups are downstream.
ArPharazonV: "The passage can be made, but it must be done carefully against fast water. We must not leave the path even a short distance downstream on either side. Spiders are on this side and Orcs on the other.
ArPharazonV: spiders are on the east side
VardaValar1: We are trying to use more time for the story.
Menelvagor Valar: I agree Indis :-)
VardaValar1: We are trying to cause an incident to slow our speed.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, we're not going to be bumbling through Mirkwood, Indis.
Menelvagor Valar: But actually, if I remember correctly, it didn't take Bilbo and the Dwarves more than a day or two to cross Mirkwood.
ArPharazonV: nah, it took 'em weeks I think
Eonwe Valar: Time stricly moving though, will get us there before we need to be there, though, so we hav esome time to play around with.
Eonwe Valar: *strictly
ArPharazonV: ages upon ages, their food going completely empty
Eonwe Valar: Bilbo and the Dwarves left the path and got lost.
ArPharazonV: yes, but they ran out of food even before leaving the path
ArPharazonV: granted, they went on foot, and rather slowly towards the end
Menelvagor Valar: their food went out because they got themselves into the tunnels of the goblins with most of their gear still outside I believe.
ArPharazonV: they got a lot of food from Beorn
ArPharazonV: enough to fill up their packs
Menelvagor Valar: True.
ArPharazonV: and they were quite sparing with their food
VardaValar1: So are you guys saying we will not have a mishap at the river?
Menelvagor Valar: And it has been quite a while since I read the hobbit :-)
ArPharazonV: I'm reading it right now :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Actually, I think it would be a good idea :-)
ArPharazonV: at Thranduil's halls at the moment
Menelvagor Valar: Considering that Auros is probably setting a hard pace, normally it wouldn't take us more than a week or two to reach Rivendell.
karakedi25: Varda, I don't think that, but they're saying crossing Mirkwood could take quite a while, more than a couple of days.
ArPharazonV: the dwarves were on foot, though, and in unknown territory
ArPharazonV: we should be going a lot faster than them
Eonwe Valar: It's raining right now, so the going is slower than Auros would like.
VardaValar1: This is just a decision on whether we have a mishap at the river and how bad.
ArPharazonV: I think the Atlas puts the distance from the river to the western edge at... 140 miles or so?
karakedi25: I wouldn't expect this party to get lost. Delayed perhaps, but not lost.
Menelvagor Valar: aye, but still double or triple the pace of the dwarves, at least.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Indis.
VardaValar1: We are not talking about gettting lost, right.
VardaValar1: We know all too well where we are. ;-)
karakedi25: I understand, but we were comparing with Bilbo's party.
Menelvagor Valar: well, if it was Estarion and Frali who would have the mishap, getting lost is actually an option.
karakedi25: If one of the Mirkwood elves isn't with them, yes, possibly.
ArPharazonV: you get lost in the forest while we search after you by boat? could be an interesting scenario
VardaValar1: There's a big river to keep them in touch with where they are going.
ArPharazonV: surviving in the wilderness
VardaValar1: The rest of the party is almost immediately on your tail.
karakedi25: Estarion could probably manage in the forest better than Frali
Menelvagor Valar: undoubtedly :-)
Menelvagor Valar: considering he snuck up on the party just before the battle with the spiders unnoticed (or at least seemingly) :-)
ArPharazonV: yes, but both of you can get lost because you're new to the area
VardaValar1: You can't get lost by that river.
VardaValar1: Especially not Estarion.
ArPharazonV: you can if you wash up in an orc camp and have to run for your life :-)
karakedi25: might be a nice side story (and delay for the party) for Estarion and Frali to go off track from the river and get lost. Maybe briefly captured by orcs or the like.
karakedi25: yes, same thinking, ArPhar
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, besides, Estarion, as a scout would very likely to be able to read the lay of the land and come to understand the land while traveling through it, even if but a small part.
Menelvagor Valar: Estarion would not stray far from the river, except perhaps to skirt the orc encampment if they were camped close to it.
karakedi25: And if that happened, I can just see Auros getting more and more frustrated and irritable ;-)
ArPharazonV: I wonder if Auros would suggest going on without them
ArPharazonV: the mission before everything!
Eonwe Valar: That's a good questoin.
Eonwe Valar: *question
Menelvagor Valar: And Estarion would know that if he's swept downriver, no matter which side he emerged on, he would have to go upriver to get back to the others.
ArPharazonV: or at least to the crossing, aye
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: Auros could go on with a small group. but Fainan would be obligated to try to recover the party.
karakedi25: If this is the Enchanted River, how long would it take for those swept away in it to awaken?
Eonwe Valar: Auros is not without compassion, however.
Menelvagor Valar: well, if we use the method of crossing faster, which is more liable to mishaps, Auros might feel obliged to search for those swept downwards as well.
VardaValar1: They will not be asleep. The river is diluted by a long, heavy rain. They could be groggy.
Menelvagor Valar: at least for as long as he deems justifiable.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Menel. I'd considered that as well.
VardaValar1: Auros would not leave them if it looked like a fairly quick rescue, I'm sure.
Menelvagor Valar: I mean, if Auros felt that a small delay for a search and possibly rescue is not going to cause much trouble, he'd do it I think.
VardaValar1: These are small camps of orcs and spiders, not giant armies.
ArPharazonV: Auros knows there's camps of spiders and orcs downstream
ArPharazonV: he'd know that those washed down the river would be in danger
Menelvagor Valar: if the search would take longer than expected and jeopardized the time frame of the mission, Auros would abort it, even if he were to blame for the mishap.
Menelvagor Valar: At least, that's what I think Auros would do.
Eonwe Valar: Well, only from our perspective is there really a time frame for the mission.
VardaValar1: If it looked as if it would take a lot of time, Fainan would drag in some of the local patrollers for help.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: And if push comes to shove, we can always reform in Rivendell :-)
VardaValar1: Auros simply needs to report back sometime to Elrond, so he does need to be alive. : )
VardaValar1: That should not be necessary, we should be able to get together again much sooner than Rivendell.
Menelvagor Valar: Well, considering the darkening of the age, and the rise of Sauron, I would think that Auros' sense of urgency would grow with every passing day.
VardaValar1: This is only intended to be a short delay, not even a break-up.
ArPharazonV: if we got seperated in Mirkwood, would Estarion and Frali still have reason to follow us to Rivendell, instead of returning east?
Menelvagor Valar: I would.
Eonwe Valar: Frali has a reason.
VardaValar1: Chances are, our group could take either of the small camps especially by surprise.
Menelvagor Valar: You should remember the sparring match me and Auros had :-)
ArPharazonV: true
Eonwe Valar: Frali has messages to deliver to Rivendell. Given that Frali was essentially placed under Auros' care (from his perspective), that would likely be enough for Auros to spend a significant amount of time in the search, barring other concerns.
ArPharazonV: true
VardaValar1: Our main problem is that we lost Arien, and we needed her for this story arc for Frali.
VardaValar1: We can go ahead and start ferrying horses across.
Eonwe Valar: I guess we could link this chat in the discussion thread for Arien to know she needs to read it :}
ArPharazonV: if I see her in WoW in the next week I could point her to the transcript
VardaValar1: It will be on the transcript as usual. Thanks, Phar. : )
ArPharazonV: don't forget, this is my last meeting for 2 weeks, I won't be here for any discussion next week and I won't be posting or reading anything in that week
VardaValar1: So let's go ahead this week and start on the ferrying part.
VardaValar1: What day do you leave?
ArPharazonV: next friday, will be back a week later
VardaValar1: That should give us some posting time this week, then.
ArPharazonV: so this week we can get some posting done, yes, but not the week after
VardaValar1: At least maybe you'll have some action to look forward to. : )
VardaValar1: Shall we adjourn then?
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately I can't post right now. I must go afk for a bit.
ArPharazonV: I'll try to set up a post for myself tomorrow
VardaValar1: Tomorrow is fine. Europe needs to go to sleep. : )
Menelvagor Valar: Oh, same thing for me actually.
Menelvagor Valar: going on vacation august 2nd and due to return august 11th.
VardaValar1: So let's try to all check in tomorrow and see about making a very fun set of postings!
karakedi25: check in here?
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: So, shall I contrive some reason for Auros to wish for urgency?
VardaValar1: To the forum.
Menelvagor Valar: Forums I think :-)
Eonwe Valar: Enough urgency to override prudence, hehe.
Menelvagor Valar: Not necessarily Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: ok
VardaValar1: Auros, that could add to the tension, but not required.
ArPharazonV: I'll try not to get carried away with RA3 and take some minutes for the RP :-)
karakedi25: Would it make sense for Meren to be keeping a special eye on Frali, so she has a reason to react during the events?
VardaValar1: He could have some reason why he really wants to get on back, worrying.
Menelvagor Valar: if me and Frali were to cross last, and frali would slip when coming off the boat, there's your mishap, without urgency factor.
ArPharazonV: if you and Frali were to cross last, one of us would have to be on that side with the boat
VardaValar1: We would not leave Frali to last unless he kept hanging back and asking to go later, like saying ladies first etc.
Eonwe Valar: Given the current formation, Auros would probably have Frali and Estarion cross in the middle of the group order.
VardaValar1: Aye, that would be the logical path.
ArPharazonV: once we're all across with the boat, one of us would have to go back to pick you up
Eonwe Valar: Also given his current concerns.
VardaValar1: That also splits our group up neatly. ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: true, but still, if they were to cross together, you have the magical mishap waiting to strike ^^
ArPharazonV: boat doesn't magically travel to the other side
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: They would be together crossing even if they are in the middle group.
VardaValar1: Who will be helping Fainan take the horses across?
ArPharazonV: if we're more familiar with the boat, I doubt you'll see Frali and Estarion on the boat with 2 of them, instead of one of us with them
Eonwe Valar: I don't remember. WOuld there be some rope to pull the boat back to the other side?
Menelvagor Valar: And it's just pointing out possibilities mind you, it doesn't have to be that way ^^
ArPharazonV: that's also possible, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: but do we want to take that chance with a heavy rainfall and thus fast-flowing river?
VardaValar1: I think we should pulll out the Hobbit and check. Seems like there was a rope.
ArPharazonV: there was a rope, the dwarves used ropes to pull the boat back and forth
karakedi25: If not, we could make a temporary rig with rope and such
ArPharazonV: but *that* boat was lost downstream after Bombur fell
VardaValar1: I seem to remember a rope.
ArPharazonV: so I assumed we'd have another boat by now, with or without rope
Menelvagor Valar: it would have been replaced long since I think :-)
VardaValar1: And the boat would be replaced.
karakedi25: Presumably we would have planned for the crossing
ArPharazonV: yes, but would the boat?
VardaValar1: People have been crossing for a long time, so yes.
ArPharazonV: the Elves weren't the ones who attached the rope though
ArPharazonV: *would the rope
karakedi25: and if we've planned, it's based on the boat being there or not there
VardaValar1: The boat will be there.
ArPharazonV: yes, the boat will be there, but will the rope?
VardaValar1: It is a normal part of the crossing
ArPharazonV: the Dwarves used the rope, not the boat
VardaValar1: Look up the book.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, afk time for me. Please continue :}
ArPharazonV: sorry
ArPharazonV: I keep mistyping
VardaValar1: I loaned my copy and will have to get one from a friend.
Menelvagor Valar: btw, is the river completely covered with the canopy of the trees?
ArPharazonV: the Dwarves used the boat with the rope
ArPharazonV: but it was *their* rope
VardaValar1: I need to leave as well.
VardaValar1: I would expect however
karakedi25: no reason we wouldn't be traveling without a rope of our own
VardaValar1: that for rough crossings, elven rope would be available.
Menelvagor Valar: that the patrols would have some rope to help friendy people cross.
ArPharazonV: when the Dwarves and Bilbo came to the river, there was only the boat tied up with a short rope to the other side
VardaValar1: I also suspect a rope bridge might be possible for the light of foot.
ArPharazonV: it was the Dwarves who attached their own ropes
ArPharazonV: and used them to cross
VardaValar1: Fainan will certainly be carrrying rope. I always get some every D&D game. ;-)
karakedi25: Our party will have the means to get across and back, because as you say, rope will be available one way or the other.
Menelvagor Valar: True, but at that time, the Silvans were rather swept up in events around Dol Guldur and the evil spreading north from there I believe.
ArPharazonV: unless we decided to change to that same tactic (which I doubt, since both boat and rope disappeared after Bombur fell), there will not be a rope with the boat
ArPharazonV: and the only rope we can use will be the rope we have with us, yes
karakedi25: So the mishap will be that Frali and/or Estarion fall in and are swept downstream?
ArPharazonV: but it's not part of the standard crossing with boat, unless every elf crossing it has a rope with him
Menelvagor Valar: I would reckon it's a year or even several years since Bombur fell.
VardaValar1: Most likely the elves will have rope available for the boat to pull it at need.
ArPharazonV: which he is somehow able to retrieve (but hey, elvish rope)
ArPharazonV: it's about 80 years, Menel :-)
Menelvagor Valar: as said, long time :-)
Menelvagor Valar: One would reckon the elves had the means for the crossing with horses.
Menelvagor Valar: if nothing else, I would reckon Fainan or even Calaron bringing a rope for that very purpose.
VardaValar1: Their was surely a means for a lone elf to cross the river with his or her horse.
VardaValar1: *There
ArPharazonV: I think I had Calaron and his horse cross the river at some point
VardaValar1: This is a used path, not an abandoned one. So it has a system.
ArPharazonV: I remember a deer leaping across the river in the Hobbit :-)
ArPharazonV: go go horsies!
Menelvagor Valar: yes, but that was with a fairly steady river, this one is swollen with the rain.
Menelvagor Valar: and besides, Frali's pony couldn't make the leap.
Menelvagor Valar: and Estarion's wouldn't because of its rider.
ArPharazonV: so we'll use the boat with our own rope?
Menelvagor Valar: our own or elvish, it doesn't really matter.
VardaValar1: Don't have to assume the elves would not have rope handy near the boat.
Menelvagor Valar: we know we have the means, one way or the other :-)
ArPharazonV: our own would be Elvish :-)
karakedi25: our own would be elvish, no?
Menelvagor Valar: I meant from the other elves outside our party ya nitpickers :P
ArPharazonV: also true, Varda, we might have some rope hidden in a nearby stump or something
ArPharazonV: that the Dwarves didn't know about
Menelvagor Valar: or, to cut this entire discussion short, one of the patrols in the trees that weren't there at the time of the dwarves' crossing have some.
ArPharazonV: or we smarted up a bit and simply decided to put some rope inside the boat during the last 80 years
Menelvagor Valar: as you said Phar, there's a gap of 80 years in between, that's a lot of time to come up with something, even for Elves.
ArPharazonV: maybe even have it tied to two trees by default
VardaValar1: Most boats have a rope to tie up with, so don't worry about it.
ArPharazonV: or however that works
Menelvagor Valar: heck, 80 years would be sufficient for Ents to come up with something I'd reckon ^^
ArPharazonV: I tried to keep track of what they were doing with the rope but didn't succeed in that
ArPharazonV: and I'll no doubt fail again when we do it :-)
VardaValar1: Ok, I'm going to call it a night before my eyes fall out. We'll post tomorrow and this adventure should be a fun, active one.
karakedi25: I think we're agreed that rope will be available.
Menelvagor Valar: If my memory doesn't fail me, I think they "anchored" it with a hook or something and threw that at the boat.
ArPharazonV: right, going to sleep as well
VardaValar1: We don't even have to disturbe one spider or orc to make it very very tense!
VardaValar1: Best to have a way to pull it from both sides.
Menelvagor Valar: Totally agree Varda :-)
ArPharazonV: they used a rope with a hook, threw it to the boat on the far side, then throw a rope on a branch on the far side after pulling it in while keeping a rope on the near side which they used to bring back or something....
ArPharazonV: *shrug* very confusing
fladrifv: Namarie
Menelvagor Valar: well, as asked earlier, does the tree canopy spread over the river?
ArPharazonV: saving and sending transcript
Menelvagor Valar: if so, a lone elf traveling "over" the river could be simple enough of a means to get a rope to the other side :-)
ArPharazonV: I assume so, there's no mention of sunlight in the area, and considering the dark forest they just came from it would have gotten a mention
ArPharazonV: but the canopy might just be very high up
Menelvagor Valar: a good length of rope wouldn't care so much about that :-)
ArPharazonV: true
Menelvagor Valar: especially if the Elves considered leaving a long enough rope on the boat to be hauled back and forth at any given time too dangerous, especially with the orcs in the area.
ArPharazonV (7:15:12 PM): saved
Menelvagor Valar (7:15:27 PM): I wouldn't give the orcs the opportunity to use the boat, that's for sure.
ArPharazonV (7:15:39 PM): whatever comes next in this discussion (because I'm going to bed) will have to be Varda's transcript
VardaValar1 (7:15:45 PM): Have to consider that spiders can use rope and tree paths too, so they might be rigged as temporary.
VardaValar1 (7:16:02 PM): Good night, folks. :-)
Menelvagor Valar (7:16:04 PM): exactly my point Varda :-)
karakedi25 (7:16:07 PM): namarie
Menelvagor Valar (7:16:08 PM): Good night everyone :-)
karakedi25 (7:16:15 PM): namarie Menel
fladrifv (7:16:41 PM) has left the room.
ArPharazonV (7:17:45 PM): transcript sent
ArPharazonV (7:17:51 PM): namarie all
karakedi25 (7:18:04 PM): sleep well
ArPharazonV (7:18:37 PM): and remember, Elvish rope unties itself when you want it to!
VardaValar1 (7:18:52 PM): Right, and is very strong.
karakedi25 (7:18:54 PM): At least in the vicinity of Mordor!
ArPharazonV (7:19:14 PM): g'night
ArPharazonV (7:19:16 PM) has left the room.
VardaValar1 (7:19:30 PM): *bangs gavel*