Valar Guild

Janurary 25, 2009 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00?)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (11)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, arwenv1, CaranthirV, Elladan-(V)/Bior the Ythling, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv, Luthien-(T)/luthienathariel, Menelvagor Valar, pallandovalar/orodrethv/oessala, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
Tolkien: the palantiri

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: booh.
ArPharazonV: eek
Menelvagor Valar: cryptical dutch shark!
ArPharazonV: what?
Menelvagor Valar: haaj
ArPharazonV: ah
ArPharazonV: hey
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya :-D
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar and Menel :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: I haz some personal Tolkien news, will share it when you want me to
VardaValar1: Is that under Membership or Tolkien? :-)
ArPharazonV: no idea
ArPharazonV: which is why I'm asking
VardaValar1: Need more data. Want it as a side tell?
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Varda
VardaValar1: Aiya Menel :-)
VardaValar1: Ready to help us with the rp again, Menel? :-)
VardaValar1: There's Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Eonwe.
VardaValar1: Aiya Fladrif and Eonwe :-)
ArPharazonV: aiya both
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, I've been looking at the RP very regularly of late.
ArPharazonV: just got my last Dungeon-Elder in WoW, getting the last one in Eastern Kingdoms and then I think I'll log for the meeting
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya all :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Arien
Eonwe Valar: Arien's the new one here :} I was saying heya to her :}
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien
VardaValar1: Eonwe has the chair tonight. :-)
Eonwe Valar: OK ladies and gents, let;'s begin the meeting.

Eonwe Valar: Elen sila lumenn omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: I assume college classes are starting up for some of you or have already :}
VardaValar1: True. Eowyn and Sauron are in full swing in University
Menelvagor Valar: exam tomorrow :-D
ArPharazonV: end of period for me, 2 exams on Thurs and Fri for me and then we're done
AriehnV: good luck then Menel
AriehnV: and phara
Menelvagor Valar: thanks.
Eonwe Valar: Good luck Menel :}
Eonwe Valar: Congrats Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: Ulmo's computer is down. He hopes to build a new one and be back with us soon.
Eonwe Valar: Morwe, Alatar, and Beleg are all experiencing health problems, so please be understanding in-game. We salute them for still coming in and playing!
Eonwe Valar: And Gorlim's birthday was this week, so Happy Birthday Gorlim :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
Bior the Ythling has entered the room.
Bior the Ythling: Aiya! :-)
VardaValar1: I had an email from a person in the Netherlands who sounded interested in joining. Think one that Arien contacted.
VardaValar1: Heya!
Eonwe Valar: Heya Elladan :}
ArPharazonV: yay netherlands
Eonwe Valar: Cool Varda :} Hope he decides to stop in at a meeting :}
ArPharazonV: for such a small country, we sure show up everywhere
AriehnV: ah cool Shawret has he mailed you indeed?
VardaValar1: He didn't give me a name. I think my email may have been too long and I'd better send a shorter one. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
AriehnV: hehe i had convos with two folks of my guild actually but may be i put that into gaming :-)
VardaValar1: This one actually went to the trouble of emailing, so that sounded good.
VardaValar1: I'm done.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Varda :} I hope he decides to join :}

Eonwe Valar: Web:
Menelvagor Valar: emails... brings back memories *smile*
ArPharazonV: *grin* I remember my first email to Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Looks like we have a new review for our Reviews page that isn't available there yet, only through the news page.
Eonwe Valar: "Tom Shippey, Roots and Branches, Walking Tree Publishers, Zollikofen (Switzerland), 2007, pp. 416".
Eonwe Valar: Article by Franco Manni-(T)
luthienathariel has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Luthien : )
luthienathariel: hey
Eonwe Valar: It's a review translated from Italian into English.
Eonwe Valar: Arveleg runs our BOoks and Reviews site, but the review will be available at the above link until he gets a chance to add it in.
Eonwe Valar: Also, a new link..
Eonwe Valar: Star Wars as told by someone who hasn't seen it
Eonwe Valar: Is that on the links page now, Varda, or just on the news page?
Menelvagor Valar: I've seen that :-)
Menelvagor Valar: it's definitely worth a belly rumble :-D
ArPharazonV: I liked it, but it wasn't worth re-watching in my opinion
ArPharazonV: nothing special
ArPharazonV: but maybe I'm just spoiled
VardaValar1: Just News and his Author's page
Eonwe Valar: OK, thanks.
VardaValar1: oh, the Star Wars
Menelvagor Valar: I think you're right Pharzie :-)
VardaValar1: Just News
VardaValar1: Some have been asking the same treatment for LotR.
Eonwe Valar: In other Web News, I've been working behind the scenes on the Games Page, as usual, hehe.
Menelvagor Valar: Please noo!
luthienathariel: do you know Star Wars in ASCII animation?
Eonwe Valar: You might get to see the results of my work in the next couple of weeks. The question is if you'll notice any difference :}
Menelvagor Valar: As good as the movies were, they were still garbled up enough for someone to make it in the star wars version would be absolutely horrible to watch.
VardaValar1: Sounds like something fun to look at, Luthien
luthienathariel: it is
CaranthirV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: That does it for web.
VardaValar1: Aiya Caranthir!
CaranthirV: Aiya
AriehnV: aiya there
Menelvagor Valar: That actually looks rather cool Luthien :-)
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: OK, that was odd.
Eonwe Valar: And heya Caranthir.
orodrethv has entered the room.
pallandovalar has left the room.
oessala has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya orodreth
ArPharazonV: Aiya Pallando and Caranthir
AriehnV: Pallando i mean :-)
Eonwe Valar: Another quick piece of Member news before we move into gaming:
Eonwe Valar: Varda tells me Elladan mentioned he joined a campus ministry this week, and they've been keeping him busy :}
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
VardaValar1: sure hope someone else is saving this. Accidentally close it.
VardaValar1: Hantalye. :-)
ArPharazonV: will make a quick temporary save
Eonwe Valar: I'm saving to the best of AIM v 6's ability, hehe.
ArPharazonV: done
ArPharazonV: even if I fail now at least I've got the first part
VardaValar1: Great! My first save attempt had a fail.
Eonwe Valar: Good luck with all that busy - ness, Elladan :}
Bior the Ythling: mmm thank you very much :-)

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: I've been experiencing some bad connections in WoW this week.
Eonwe Valar: Since the patch. Anyone else having similar problems?
ArPharazonV: only thing that's happened to me
ArPharazonV: is getting stuck inside an instance because there were no extra servers available
Eonwe Valar: hehe, great.
ArPharazonV: but that was more instance-crowdedness with the Lunar Festival going on than anything else, probably
AriehnV: aye my framerate is playing high wire since the patch actually and sometimes real bad lag in northrend the higher level areas
Menelvagor Valar: I've had no issues whatsoever, that is until I hooked up my laptop to the same internet supply :-D
Eonwe Valar: Hopefully this will get taken care of soon.
ArPharazonV: lag's been around for weeks for me since I've got downloads running constantly, downloading a few series of gigabytes long ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Hehe
Eonwe Valar: Good luck to us all until it does.
ArPharazonV: didn't notice anything extra since the patch
Eonwe Valar: Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: I saw Elwing, Fangorn, and Eowyn were on earlier in the week, and caught Arwen on yesterday. Unfortunately I had to work Friday night, so I missed any fun then, and due to the problems would've likely given up on playing anyway.
Eonwe Valar: Uldaman:
Eonwe Valar: Report from Varda directly off the news page:
Eonwe Valar: "Fun was had in the weekly Wednesday get-together of Horde. Fangorn, Elwing, and Varda together leveled characters and ran their three lowbies in an adrenaline rush of a run from Silverpine well into Desolace for the cookbook."
VardaValar1: :-)
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Last Sunday after the meeting, Varda, Arien, and I got together to save Lalia and find a woman's two sons in the Barrow Downs.
Eonwe Valar: Read Maedhros' poem about Lalia mentioned last week. It's appropriate :}
VardaValar1: In LotRO, we are also doing a lot of high level stuff. Lowbie stuff is always going on too.
Eonwe Valar: Afterwards, Varda and I got together for some other quests in the Lone Lands.
Eonwe Valar: And aye, others were on doing higher-leveled stuff :}
VardaValar1: Helegrod run yesterday, intended for 50's originally. Did Moria instances also, for 58-60's.
VardaValar1: Don't think any of you here are into Moria questing so I'll leave that be for now.
VardaValar1: Done.
Eonwe Valar: Thank you for the report Varda :} I thank you for not going into tooo much detail, because I hope to find out for myself what's there some day :}
Eonwe Valar: But sharing a bit is fine, as I for one am interested in what we're doing :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
AriehnV: do u want to know about the conversations i had on Auchindoun?
AriehnV: on wednes
AriehnV: as
Eonwe Valar: Are they in some way related to us or something we might be interested to know?
AriehnV: u might be interrested to know since i found out there were two members of my guild there very keen on Lotr
AriehnV: and tolkien
Eonwe Valar: ok
VardaValar1: I talk to people about joining all the time, that have read LotR. Some will read the site for fun.
AriehnV: i think both guhys might do that and maybe join for a meeting
VardaValar1: Be sure to get their AIM names and put them on your buddy list for invitations.
AriehnV: i hope anyway , since one probably contacted u, that will be Morthas i think since Shawret is from Poland
AriehnV: Morthas was really enthusiastic on wednesday he has read all the me related books has some collectors stuff and has
AriehnV: read tolkien biographies
AriehnV: he told me he waanted to study "Tolkienology* at university in oxford lo.
Eonwe Valar: Cool
AriehnV: thats when i pointed him towards the valarguild
AriehnV: i think they have to download aim both of them but shawret seems to have web problems after a powercut
AriehnV: ok thats it :-) carry on
Eonwe Valar: I hope they both decide to drop in.

Eonwe Valar: And with that, we move into Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Seems as if the Americas would find it easier to drop in, but it doesn't seem to be so. The meeting tends to be around 4-6 pm for them.
Eonwe Valar: While you all are thinking up and whispering me Tolkien topics for discussion, we have a piece of Tolkien-related news.
Menelvagor Valar: which, depending on the person is like around the end of a normal sunday day job and somewhere around dinner.
Eonwe Valar: Luthien, you have something you'd like to share?
luthienathariel: ah yes
luthienathariel: hi
luthienathariel: but it is not yet uploaded .. that thing is very slow.
luthienathariel: I made a video about Eärendil
luthienathariel: I'll give the URL as soon as it has finished loading.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Luthien.
luthienathariel: yw
Eonwe Valar: Phar, you have some Tolkien-related news?
ArPharazonV: yeah
ArPharazonV: this week I bought some more Tolkien-books, the first in years
ArPharazonV: I've now got Letters, Journeys of Frodo and the Atlas of Middle-earth
VardaValar1: Journeys of Frodo?
ArPharazonV: browsing through them for a bit, they all seem to have some nicely ordered information, and are nice to accompany rereads
ArPharazonV: aye, a book containing maps of the Fellowship's journey through Middle-earth, based on descriptions
ArPharazonV: 51 maps
ArPharazonV: together with information on how they're made and what information was used and other information about that part of the journey
ArPharazonV: it'll be nice to keep it alongside Lotr as I'll reread the books
Eonwe Valar: Atlas is certianly nice. I use it for reference in the RP as far as travelling goes.
ArPharazonV: I was under the impression that it would be known among the Valarguild but you're the second person who's asked what it is, so apparently it's not that common :-)
ArPharazonV: and yes, the Atlas is nice
ArPharazonV: I'm sure I'll make good use of it for my Second Age project
Eonwe Valar: Journey of Frodo sounds familiar to me. Thought I might have it, but no, I have Walking with Frodo :}
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure when I'll read Letters but I'm thinking of having it accompany a reread of the Complete History, trying to go through the years together
ArPharazonV: I'm also considering buying The Maps of Tolkien's Middle-earth, an assortment of large maps with booklets as far as I can tell, and the Guide to Middle-earth
ArPharazonV: trying to make a nice meta-Tolkien books collection
ArPharazonV: I've got those 2 in a "shopping cart" in a Dutch store already
ArPharazonV: but I'm also looking for some other books which I have not been able to find easily in the Netherlands
Eonwe Valar: I've got the Maps and the guide .The guide is a good general reference, but it does have some glaring errors in some places :}
Eonwe Valar: Like an entry for Half-orcs that says the term was never used :}
VardaValar1: Robert Foster's is still one of the best fast references: The Complete Guide to Middle-earth.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that's the one I have.
ArPharazonV: Pictures by Tolkien and the Adventures of Tom Bombadil continue to elude me, I did find similar books on the website of a Dutch store Luthien linked me, but they seem to be old editions etc and I'm not really looking for a heavily priced collector's item like that
ArPharazonV: yes, that's the one I meant
ArPharazonV: so if any of you have any hints on where to find them or easily order them without having to use creditcards etc...
VardaValar1: Some old editions are just used books and may be cheap.
ArPharazonV: I have here a Tom Bombadil first edition for 300 euros
ArPharazonV: that's a bit too much for me :-)
VardaValar1: I look around local used book stores and ask for a flag on particular books so that they phone if it comes in.
Eonwe Valar: That's a first edition :}
ArPharazonV: so I'm looking for something more reasonable
Eonwe Valar: Aye, used bookstores are good.
ArPharazonV: something newer if possible, but I'm starting to fear that nobody publishes them anymore
VardaValar1: Tried the book publishers?
VardaValar1: They have online sites.
VardaValar1: Houghton Mifflin
ArPharazonV: hmm, how can I find the names of the publishers...
ArPharazonV: ah
luthienathariel: maybe you could ask the guy who operates that store
VardaValar1: Look on the book's spine
ArPharazonV: how can I check the spine if I don't have the books? well, I suppose I could visit the store
luthienathariel: or I could do that for you
luthienathariel: it is around the corner here
VardaValar1: ok, Houghton Mifflin, Ballantine, Del Rey
ArPharazonV: if you could that would be great, Luth
luthienathariel: do remind me though
VardaValar1: Those are right here on my shelf.
VardaValar1: Look up those publishers online.
ArPharazonV: houghton mifflin seems to have neither of the books
ArPharazonV: checking ballantine now
Eonwe Valar: Shall we move to Tolkien chat now? Menel has a topic.
ArPharazonV: sure
VardaValar1: My Letters is by Houghton Mifflin
Eonwe Valar: Ok Menel, goe ahead.
Eonwe Valar: *go
VardaValar1: Also they recently put out Children of Hurin, so they are still interested.
VardaValar1: done
ArPharazonV: but if anyone knows anything, let them contact me or say it on the forum
ArPharazonV: and yes, they have those, but I can't find either bombadil or pictures
VardaValar1: The Tolkien Reader includes The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.
VardaValar1: I'm done, Menel. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: And why do you tell me? *smile*
Eonwe Valar: Your Tolkien topic :}
VardaValar1: Eonwe called on you a minute ago.
Menelvagor Valar: oh right, sorry, it got lost in the vast amount of bookstore, publisher and book information you have been throwing around for the past 20 minutes :-D
ArPharazonV: pff, it's half a screen up
Menelvagor Valar: Anyways.
Menelvagor Valar: I'm on my laptop, and not even on my games computer do I have my screen rotated 90 degrees.
Menelvagor Valar: But as I was saying: Anyways.
Menelvagor Valar: I was watching (and still am for part of it actually) the appendices of the LotR extended edition DVD...
Menelvagor Valar: And there was something that I picked up that I found rather interesting.
Menelvagor Valar: One of the people there did some explanation on the Palantiri.
Menelvagor Valar: He said, and that's the way I interpret it, that the Palantiri in the books were, when used, constantly giving misinformation to their users.
Menelvagor Valar: The very least of that is that the information that they gave was misinterpreted by all those using them (at least in LotR).
Menelvagor Valar: Also, I do say books, because he did talk about Denethor using a Palantír, which only small indication was given of in the movies.
Menelvagor Valar: So with all that as a prelude, the question is, what do we actually know about the Palantíri?
VardaValar1: (This sounds like the info from the recent book review we put up by Franco Manni on Tom Shippey's book.)
VardaValar1: During Lord of the Rings, Sauron and Saruman had taken control of two of the Palantiri, and Sauron corrupted them by having them show what he wanted seen.
Menelvagor Valar: That might be possible, though I did not read those reviews, or catch the name of this person in question on the dvd :-)
VardaValar1: Careful editing of anything gives misleading info if desired.
Eonwe Valar: The Palantiri themselves were created by Elves, so they were not designed with the giving of misinformation in mind.
Eonwe Valar: They were gifts to the Numenoreans, which were taken by the Faithful when that land was destroyed.
Eonwe Valar: The implication I got when reading about Saruman getting caught by Sauron is that he was looking just a little to closely towards Mordor with the Palantir while Sauron was also using his.
Eonwe Valar: *little too closely
VardaValar1: aye and got caught
Eonwe Valar: The stone on Minas Tirith (the Anor stone) was dangerous because it was closely attuned with the stone Sauron had (the Ithil stone).
Menelvagor Valar: That still strikes me as a bit odd.
Menelvagor Valar: Considering that Sauron is ever described as a spiritual force, or at most a big flaming eye.
Eonwe Valar: Those two stones seemed to have a natural tendency towards connecting with eachother.
VardaValar1: Gollum said Sauron had one finger missing on his blackened hand.
Menelvagor Valar: Now how would he be able to actually "use" a Palantír, except by attuning it to him somehow?
Eonwe Valar: What Varda said. She said it faster and more succinctly, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: He had a physical form.
Menelvagor Valar: Hmmm... again, too long since I read.
Eonwe Valar: I'm about due for a full reread too, but I've been going through for the RP and for my paper on Dwarves.
ArPharazonV: so he made himself some sort of body? I thought he would be bodiless until he got the Ring?
Eonwe Valar: He was weakened for a long time without the Ring, but while it existed not utterly defeated.
VardaValar1: He could no longer make a fair form.
Eonwe Valar: Him "taking shape" again in MIddle-Earth seems to be literal as well as metaphorical.
ArPharazonV: hmm, allright
Menelvagor Valar: Well, him not being able to take a fair form again was when he "caused" the downfall of Numénor.
Eonwe Valar: It took him almost an entire age to recover enough of his former power to manifest physically again.
ArPharazonV: yes, and he still had a more unpleasant form in Mordor when Elendil and sons came after him
ArPharazonV: and after he lost the Ring there, he became bodiless for a while
Menelvagor Valar: After the second age and the end of Sauron's reign of terror in Middle-Earth, I did think he lost his bodily form until the Ring would be on him again.
VardaValar1: He built himself up in Dol Guldur, known as the Necromancer.
ArPharazonV: thought the same as Menelvagor
Eonwe Valar: Gollum seeing Sauron in a body seems to squash that thought :}
Menelvagor Valar: but good points there of course.
Menelvagor Valar: very good, "almost" to the point of endeniable *grin*
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Back to the Palantiri though.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, there were 7 in total if I remember correctly.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Menelvagor Valar: plus 1 Master stone which stayed behind in Eressëa.
Eonwe Valar: There was one in the Tower Hills that only looked towards that stone.
ArPharazonV: 3 in the North, 4 in the South
Eonwe Valar: The one at Osgiliath was the master stone for the ones in Middle-Earth though, as I recall.
Eonwe Valar: Or at least for the south.
Menelvagor Valar: There was 1 in Minas Anor, 1 in Minas Ithil, 1 in Osgiliath, 1 in Orthanc.
ArPharazonV: the ones at Annuminas and Amon Sul were lost with the king of Arnor in the north
ArPharazonV: the one in Orthanc and Minas Anor remained until the War of the Ring
ArPharazonV: *ones
ArPharazonV: the one in Osgiliath was lost, the one in Minas Ithil was taken by Sauron
ArPharazonV: or his minions in any case
Menelvagor Valar: Annuminas, Amon Sul (or Weathertop) were two in the north, and I believe the last one was more attuned to the Master Stone, and was located in the west, in the Grey Havens and would look out to sea.
Eonwe Valar: It would likely have been much worse had Sauron had the Osgiliath stone.
ArPharazonV: not in the Grey Havens, but at one of the Towers
Eonwe Valar: Aye
ArPharazonV: in the Tower Hills
Menelvagor Valar: Ah, yes of course, higher up is better for good seeing :-)
Menelvagor Valar: So, do we actually know what happened to those lost at Amon Sul and Annuminas?
ArPharazonV: yes, they sank in the bay of Forochel
Eonwe Valar: Aye
AriehnV: so they would be still down there at the time of the war of the ring
AriehnV: wouldnt sauron be interested in recovering then?
Eonwe Valar: He had one.
ArPharazonV: they had been gone for over 1000 years
Eonwe Valar: That's all he needed for the moment.
ArPharazonV: who says they would still be in place? they could have ended up far in the ocean
ArPharazonV: and do we have to assume Sauron knew what had happened to them in the first place?
VardaValar1: Ulmo was one that Sauron feared, and that was his element.
Menelvagor Valar: Besides, those were used for the north, and as is told all over the LotR, although Sauron always aimed to rule and subjugate the entirety of Middle Earth, his main attention and main hatred was always focused on Gondor.
AriehnV: dont think it really would have been ia problem unless Ulmo still resided in the water a
Eonwe Valar: His more pressing matter was recovering the Ring. Best not to give Ossë, or worse, Ulmo, a reason to become directly interested in his doings.
AriehnV: true enough
ArPharazonV: besides, his power in the North had been greatly diminished after the defeat of Angmar, not long after the Palantiri were lost
Menelvagor Valar: I wouldn't count on Ulmo becoming more directly involved Eonwe.
Menelvagor Valar: Nor Ossë for that matter.
ArPharazonV: perhaps he would not even have had the forces in place to after them
ArPharazonV: *to go
Menelvagor Valar: I think it is somewhere said in the telling about the Istari, that the Valar did not want to chance to become active in the war against the Shadow once more.
Eonwe Valar: Ossë I'm sure we be more than happy to sink a few boats full of orcs looking for something in the open seas.
Menelvagor Valar: True :-)
VardaValar1: How were the orcs to search so deep?
Eonwe Valar: Sauron would devise a way, if he had enough time.
ArPharazonV: it's Sauron.. he'd find a way, maybe employ some big fish-monsters?
Menelvagor Valar: But then again, there is no indication of the boats of the Corsairs of Umbar being sunk, so why not those? :-)
VardaValar1: They were just in a river, and would be taken care of. Prophecy.
Menelvagor Valar: Personally, I think Ulmo and Ossë kind of left the shores alone, except for the "natural" stuff, and Sauron would fear Ulmo enough not to try to do anything in Ulmo's domain.
Menelvagor Valar: Otherwise Sauron would have searched for the Osgiliath stone.
AriehnV has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: That one would have been much more valuable to him than both ones from the north together.
ArPharazonV: the Osgiliath stone was lost in a flowing river, there's no telling where it could have gone to
Eonwe Valar: In all of the Wars of Beleriand, Morgoth's forces did not use or try to capture ports on the sea.
Menelvagor Valar: And there is no "flowing" water in a bay?
ArPharazonV: the chances of the Osgiliath stone being lost to the sea are a lot larger than those lost in the middle of a bay
ArPharazonV: not as fast, and not as one-directional
AriehnV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: it was lost on a shipwreck and shipwrecks don't tend to move around a lot after having sunk
Menelvagor Valar: Pharzy, the workings of sea currents in bays are actually a lot more unpredictable than those of a river mouth.
Menelvagor Valar: that doesn't mean its contents could not have been washed away.
ArPharazonV: of course it could have
AriehnV: right .. i am sorry to leave at this point but else i am going to sink elsewhere tomorrow at work
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
AriehnV: i have to go i fear :-(#
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie Arien :-)
ArPharazonV: but the chances of those being lost are likely smaller than the chance of the Osgiliath-stone being lost
ArPharazonV: Namarie Arien
AriehnV: Namarie for now :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: in any case, Sauron never tried (or never succeeded in any case) in locating those 3 stones
Menelvagor Valar: never tried for as much as I think :-)
Eonwe Valar: The Palantiri would probably be together in a box of some sort, in a safe place. They probably would've stayed inside the ship, especially since it seems the ship was driven into the ice, and then had ice piled onto it by the storm.
Eonwe Valar: I don't think that wreck moved very far.
Menelvagor Valar: But for the rest, I think the Stones themselves showed as much as the wielder could make them see, provided no one else would be interfering with what the stone would project.
ArPharazonV: oh yes, they were definitely dependent on those who looked into them
Menelvagor Valar: Which is indicated by what is said in the books about the Orthanc and Minas Tirith stones.
Eonwe Valar: Aye on that Menel, and I beleive they tended to show what was near other stones.
Menelvagor Valar: That only one of great will could wrest them away from Sauron's will.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, which is likely what trapped both Saruman and Denethor.
Menelvagor Valar: However, both Denethor and Saruman were of great will, and they would not easily be trapped, so it was Sauron who allowed them to see certain things and not others.
Eonwe Valar: Saruman might've been better off had he not looked quite so close to Mordor, but Denethor's doom was practically certain, since as we've already mentione,d the Ithil and Anor stones were closely attuned.
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Eonwe Valar: That may also have been something that helped in some measure in Aragorns contest for control of the Palantir.
Eonwe Valar: *aragorn's
Menelvagor Valar: Perhaps, but regardless of atunement, they were both solidly under the control of Sauron's will.
Eonwe Valar: It would've been a rougher time had Aragorn had tried that with the Anor stone, yet another good reason Aragorn did not go there just yet.
Menelvagor Valar: and Aragorn, whether he had claimed the throne at that point or not, had already showed himself of great willpower and beyond that, he was of almost pure Numenoréan blood.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, there are many good reasons why Aragorn was able to contest Sauron's will via the Palantir.
Eonwe Valar: So, summarizing what we have here so far...
Eonwe Valar: 7 Palantiri, made by Elves so not designed with the intention of spreading misinformation (though used by Sauron in that manner),..
Eonwe Valar: The line of Elendil were the rightful users/owners of those Palantir and as such had a legitimate claim to them..
Eonwe Valar: Typically they could show things nearby to themselves or to other Palantiri.
Eonwe Valar: Those with strong will could direct them to see what they wished to see.
Eonwe Valar: Am I leaving anything out?
Menelvagor Valar: "or wished others to see" I would add in your last line.
Menelvagor Valar: other than that, that's the basic jist of it :-)
ArPharazonV: yes, seems a good summary
Eonwe Valar: Well, after a manne rI would agree. Sauron was able to color Denethor's perception of events via the Palantir.
Eonwe Valar: Shall we call it here with that summary, or is there any more we can add?
Menelvagor Valar: Nothing I can add at this point.
luthienathariel: (ahhhh *jumps in*) :D
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Luthien :}
Eonwe Valar: Anythign you can or would like to add or comment on about the Palantiri here at the end of things, Luthien? :}
luthienathariel: I have not really followed it, sorry
luthienathariel: I'm tired
Eonwe Valar: NP, just thought I'd ask. You can read later :}
luthienathariel: k :-)
Eonwe Valar: With that then,.... *raises gavel high and swings around his head a few times*
Eonwe Valar: *bang*
luthienathariel: ouch

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting :}
luthienathariel: *ears numbed*
Eonwe Valar: All are free to pay more attention to whatever they were already doing, or stay and chat more if they wish :}
Menelvagor Valar: hihi thanks.
Menelvagor Valar: I'll be going back to my studies then :-)
VardaValar1: Good job keeping to the subject of the palantiri. :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Bior the Ythling has left the room.
fladrifv: saved, namarie all
ArPharazonV: namarie Flad!
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Fladrif :}
Eonwe Valar: Good to see you :}
fladrifv: sorry for inactivity, have some exams tomorrow
VardaValar1: Night night!
CaranthirV: Namarie as well
Eonwe Valar: Test well :}
Eonwe Valar: Take care Caranthir :}
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well :}
fladrifv has left the room.
CaranthirV has left the room.
orodrethv: I was here the *entire* time.
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: just had nothing to contribute, hm? :-)
orodrethv: yeeees
ArPharazonV: well, I'm off to bed, saving and sending