Valar Guild

February 15, 2009 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00?)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (8)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv, luthienathariel, Menelvagor Valar, Thranduil-(V)/Gamatzgamatz, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    Fangorn, Meriadoc, Varda
    World of Goo
    Disagreement with forum rules leads to Luthien-(T)'s quitting the overall guild in an email after the meeting.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Eonwe Valar: I'll be chairing tonight. We'll begin in a couple of minutes.
ArPharazonV: okidoke
Eonwe Valar: Please send an invite to anyone on that you don't already see here.
ArPharazonV: logged in WoW right now so I can get one more shot at the last candy for Love is in the Air achievement ;-) will be the last of the year though, I don't think I'll get it
Eonwe Valar: Good luck :}
ArPharazonV: I'm sure you got it on the first day? :-)
Eonwe Valar: Nope. I had trouble even getting the guards to give me stuff.
ArPharazonV: Heh.
ArPharazonV: been reading the forum for WoW the last few days, the Northamerican general discussion forum is filled with anti-candy-threads
ArPharazonV: can't say I blame em
Eonwe Valar: I've been having bad latency since 3.0.8 came out, which I'd almost thought was fixed right before 3.0.9 came out.
ArPharazonV: Hwell, my quest for the violet drake has been stopped dead in its tracks, I guess
Eonwe Valar: Better luck next year.
ArPharazonV: but I haven't been all unlucky, I'm now owner of a white polar bear mount from some dailies in Storm Peaks this week
Eonwe Valar: Congrats
ArPharazonV: and the Jar from the Frenzyheart got me a costume today
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's go ahead and begin the meeting. Everyone who's coming's had a chance.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Varda and Fangorn are off visiting Merry. They should be back sometime today.
Eonwe Valar: Any other Member news?
Eonwe Valar: Ok, then onward we go.

Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: There's a new article in the Tolkien Encyclopedia:
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves: Information from the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings by Eonwe-(Valar)
Eonwe Valar: This is part one of my intended full article. Part 2 will be information beyond LotR and the Sil, namely UT and HoME.
ArPharazonV: did you include the Hobbit? :-)
Eonwe Valar: It's meant to be a general article on Dwarves, so I tried to avoid going too much into the histories of the individual Dwarves kingdoms except where it would be of interest about Dwarves in general.
Eonwe Valar: I.E., the first meetings between Elves and Dwarves.
Eonwe Valar: No, I didn't include the Hobbit. That story focuses on the line of Durin, so I ignored it for now. I "might" see if there's anything about Dwarves in general I can glean from it at a later time.
ArPharazonV: hmmz
Eonwe Valar: Of course, anyone who wants to try and do that before me is welcome to do so :}
Eonwe Valar: The article is broken into several sections for easier reference as well, by the way, so if you were looking for, say, Relations with the Elves, there's a section for that.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: OK, am I back now?
ArPharazonV: yep
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
luthienathariel has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: OK, what was the last thing I said and since then?
Eonwe Valar: Heya Luthien
luthienathariel: heya
ArPharazonV: Eonwe Valar: The article is broken into several sections for easier reference as well, by the way, so if you were looking for, say, Relations with the Elves, there's a section for that.Eonwe Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: nothing said since then
Eonwe Valar: ok
Eonwe Valar: So recap of web news: New general article on Dwarves by yours truly.
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves: Information from the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings by Eonwe-(Valar) for a link for luthien if she's interested.
Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
ArPharazonV: you'd already linked it, but sure :-)
Eonwe Valar: Luthien wasn't here when I linked it :}
luthienathariel: :-)
luthienathariel: thaks
luthienathariel: +n
Eonwe Valar: MP :}

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
ArPharazonV: oh, missed Luthien coming in
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
luthienathariel: Suilad!
Eonwe Valar: Lunar festival Over, Love is in the Air festival already ending for some of us, ending early tomorrow for the rest of us.
luthienathariel: what's that?
luthienathariel: is that game related?
Eonwe Valar: It's an in-game event, aye.
luthienathariel: oh ok
Eonwe Valar: WoW = World of Warcraft.
luthienathariel: thanks.
Eonwe Valar: Lothar: My Scribe is now lvl 58, so that mean's he's been able to move up into Outland Inscription. He's at 350 now.
ArPharazonV: sorry Luthien, we know how you hate it :-)
fladrifv: is there no way we can drag you into the light side of gaming luth?
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Auros (my Paladin) ran through the classic 5-man dungeons he somehow didn't get credit for towards the achievements Friday night, including making a run into Orgrimmar to do Ragefire Chasm.
luthienathariel: oh I dont hate it!
luthienathariel: I just don't get it.
luthienathariel: I think that I would love to like it.
luthienathariel: sounds like lots of fun
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Uldaman:
Eonwe Valar: Last Sunday, Varda, Elwing, Sauron, and Eonwë all popped onto the Horde server. I think just about all of us got at least one level while there :}
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Varda, Caranthir, and I got together with a guild-friend in LotRO(Lord of the Rings Online) to do some quests in the North Downs
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
ArPharazonV: *thinks* not really, too preoccupied with new period of college starting this week as well as the WoW event
Eonwe Valar: Good luck with that :}
ArPharazonV: but then again, I have excuses like that every week
Eonwe Valar: With all your classes and workload :}
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: oh, it's allright, this is the first period where I actually enjoy all 3 courses, they're more lined up with my specialty
VardaValar1: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Ok, well if there's no more gaming reports, we can go to Tolkien :}
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda :}
ArPharazonV: or well, my specialty, I don't have a specialty yet, but I mean my special interests within the study
Eonwe Valar: You're catching the tail-end of gaming.
VardaValar1: Quick mention. We're trying to do LotRO Sat and Sun mornings for group stuff.
VardaValar1: Done
Eonwe Valar: Both are out for me, but good luck :}
VardaValar1: We also play other days. : )

Eonwe Valar: OK, Tolkien time :}
Eonwe Valar: Has everyone had a chance to at least glance at part 1 of my general Dwarves article?
VardaValar1: I did. : )
Eonwe Valar: This first question doesn't require having read it all, so if you've just clicked the link and taken a look, that counts :}
fladrifv: where is my world of goo time! ....
Eonwe Valar: hmm?
fladrifv: sorry, just wanted to mention that I discovered world of goo
fladrifv: once again sorry for the interuption :-)
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, now I want to know at least "what" that is :} Game? Web Page?
fladrifv: its a puzzle game
Eonwe Valar: Ah, thanks :}
fladrifv: very addictive and delivered without drm
Eonwe Valar: Curiosity sated :}
fladrifv: and runs on all platforms
Eonwe Valar: drm I presume means Digital Rights Management or something similar for those who may not know?
VardaValar1: On the forum, you can weigh in on whether you think Tolkien's characters are 1-dimensional at:
VardaValar1: Tolkien's Characters 1-Dimensional?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I partly weighed in :}
VardaValar1: You started it. : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, everyone's had a chance to at least look at the article, so now here's a question, and answer honestly :}
Eonwe Valar: How many of you didn't know there was *that* much available for a general article on Dwarves? :}
VardaValar1: Dwarf mansions I hadn't thought of.
ArPharazonV: I knew there was a lot, especially in the "later" books
luthienathariel: ppl who say they're 1-dimensional should just read more. Like the Sil.
ArPharazonV: but I didn't know there was information on so many topic
VardaValar1: Or actually read the LotR, aye, Luthien.
ArPharazonV: s
luthienathariel: I think there's a whole lot of character development taking place
Gamatzgamatz has entered the room.
Gamatzgamatz: aiya!
Gamatzgamatz: hey guys
VardaValar1: Aiya Thranduil : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye, alot of the Dwarf stuff I kinda knew in the back of my head, but it was when I started putting it on "paper" that it's like "Wow, we have more and varied info about Dwarves than I thought."
Eonwe Valar: Heya Thranduil.
ArPharazonV: hey Thran
Eonwe Valar: Our opening topic is a discussion on our Encyclopedia's new general article on Dwarves.
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves: Information from the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings by Eonwe-(Valar)
Eonwe Valar: With just a quick glance over the article, you can answer the first question.
Eonwe Valar: "How many of you didn't know there was *that* much available for a general article on Dwarves? :}" Answer honestly :}
Gamatzgamatz: <---
VardaValar1: He had a surprise bit for all of us, or more than a bit. Well done, Eonwe!
Gamatzgamatz: most definitely, well done.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, that's the next question :} If you've had a chance to more than just glance over it, was there anything in there that surprised you to learn, or that caught your eye?
Eonwe Valar: Varda answered already mentioning the Dwarf mansions.
ArPharazonV: hmm, nope, don't see anything that comes as a surprise or which I don't remember reading earlier
Gamatzgamatz: i never knew dwarf women want a dwarf man that they can't have... so they will have no other. even though it should be expected that in this sense dwarves and elves (and some men) follow this tradition
VardaValar1: I think ahead of what I might include in an article that comes in, and the mansions I had not thought of, so it caught my eye.
ArPharazonV: well, I guess I didn't know that Dwarves helped build Nargothrond but it pretty much stops there
Eonwe Valar: Well, Elves tend to pair up early in life, and don't seem to go through "infatuation" if I recall "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" correctly.
luthienathariel: correct
luthienathariel: :-)
Gamatzgamatz: mm hm
Eonwe Valar: So the Petty-Dwarves actually being the first inhabitants of Nargothrond and alot of the lands the Noldor later laid claim to held no surprises for you :}
VardaValar1: Tend to marry around 100 and don't mess around with non-lifemates as I recollect. [Note: Elves]
luthienathariel: (*mm hm* <- what does that mean?)
VardaValar1: Means "yes"
Eonwe Valar: It's is an affirmative answer usually :}
Gamatzgamatz: agreement
luthienathariel: thanks
ArPharazonV: well, I knew the Petty-Dwarves were a lot more numerous long before the known events
ArPharazonV: so a surprise? no... but some of the information does seem new or at least forgotten
VardaValar1: "a lot of the lands"? The elves had all of Beleriand and into the the lands east of the mountains that were the border of that.
Eonwe Valar: "a lot of the lands the Noldor later laid claim to"
Eonwe Valar: Thingol told the Noldor where they could dwell, which were essentially lands he did not hold sway in by Maedhros' comments.
VardaValar1: Aye, pretty much. Seemed reasonable.
Eonwe Valar: Which turns out to be lands the Petty-Dwarves had long claimed, though now they had nowhere near enough people to hold them.
VardaValar1: And they kept themselves hidden, so no one knew much of any claim.
AriehnV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien :}
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien : )
AriehnV: Aiya Eonwe and Varda :-) aiya all
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: We're in Tolkien chat, discussing the new general article on Dwarves :}
Eonwe Valar: First question was to answer honestly on if you knew there was as much info for a general article on Dwarves as is in there.
Eonwe Valar: That only requires a quick glance. Second question requires a little more reading:
VardaValar1: This is just the first part of the article using only LotR and Sil.
Eonwe Valar: What info in the article caught your eye, or was surprising to learn (or put more simply, did you get something from the article you don't recall reading before)
ArPharazonV: the Sindar didn’t know what they were and hunted them.
ArPharazonV: interesting, vaguely remember this, but it is a bit drastic
ArPharazonV: hunting dwarves like they're a kind of boar or something
fladrifv has left the room.
ArPharazonV: hmm, dwarf-meat..
fladrifv has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: it also seems unsindarin to shoot at anything that doesn't look familiar
Eonwe Valar: They thought they were the only speaking things in Arda. I think they were hunted more like the minions of Morgoth.
luthienathariel: It disturbed me a bit when I read it, and it does not make sense
VardaValar1: The petty-dwarves by that time were shriveled and hunched-over and unpleasant, appeared to be from the Enemy.
ArPharazonV: Noldorin, perhaps, but Sindarin?
luthienathariel: yea
Gamatzgamatz: hey arien
Eonwe Valar: Aye, they'd become diminished.
Eonwe Valar: One thing I'd forgotten, or just not focused hard on in other readings, was how the Dwarves met the Noldor.
Eonwe Valar: The Dwarves had stopped traffic into Beleriand, and it was Noldor who went into the Blue Mountains who'd come across them.
VardaValar1: (In defense of the Sindar, they did trade with the regular Dwarves.)
Eonwe Valar: Seems the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod tried to stay out of the war with Morgoth as long as they possibly could.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, and once they knew what the Petty-Dwarves were, they stopped hunting them.
luthienathariel: In defense of the Sindar, they did trade with the regular Dwarves.) - so it was the "pettiness" that was their undoing ...
Eonwe Valar: The choice to stop trade rather than just arm their caravans into Beleriand better is an interesting choice for a race described as "warlike of old."
VardaValar1: The regular dwarves came much later than the petty-dwarves.
ArPharazonV: stopped trade, hm?
ArPharazonV: stopped trade with whom, I wonder?
Eonwe Valar: The Sindar.
ArPharazonV: so they traded with the Sindar before the Noldor found them?
Eonwe Valar: Aye
ArPharazonV: and the Sindar didn't even bother to mention "Hey, by the way, there's a race of short people living in yonder mountains if you happen to go near there"?
Eonwe Valar: The Dwarves who made their mansion in the Ered Luin came into Beleriand during the second age of Melkor's captivity.
Eonwe Valar: *mansions
VardaValar1: In a way, the petty-dwarves may have helped the Sindar accept the regular dwarves who came later.
VardaValar1: We don't know. We do know the regular dwarves didn't think much of the petty-dwarves, so maybe the Sindar did mention them.
Eonwe Valar: Saying Petty-Dwarves became secretive must be saying alot, considering Dwarves are already pretty secretive themselves.
VardaValar1: hehe - true
luthienathariel: Eonwë - to answer your Q: yes
Eonwe Valar: It was after the Sindar started trading with the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains that the Sindar stopped hunting the Petty-Dwarves, so something must've been said between the two.
Eonwe Valar: The one asking if anything caught your eye/surprised you to learn, luthien?
luthienathariel: oh sorry, no, the first one
luthienathariel: just noticed it
Eonwe Valar: The first one was did you know there was so much available on Dwarves for a general article :}
ArPharazonV: actually, I meant whether the Sindar mentioned the normal Dwarves to the Noldor, if you say that the Noldor only discovered their existence when travelling to the blue mountains?
Eonwe Valar: Ah
ArPharazonV: or did they know they existed, but simply hadn't met them yet?
Eonwe Valar: That's an interesting question.
luthienathariel: "did you know" <- yes. Sorry.
AriehnV: the other question is why the Petty Dwarves diminished ...had they been allied with Morgoth once or was it just that they were greedier than the *regular" dwarves>?
AriehnV: and became then corrupt
AriehnV: or what might have caused that diminuation?
luthienathariel: I wondered about that too
Eonwe Valar: On whether the Noldor knew Dwarves were in the Ered Luin: "Of the Return of the Noldor"
ArPharazonV: they could have, as a race or line, come in contact with the minions of Morgoth while he was captive
luthienathariel: and be made "petty". How cruel.
VardaValar1: Quote from the article: In origin they were Dwarves who were banished “in ancient days” from great Dwarf-cities in the east (possibly including Khazad-Dum, though no actual city is named). They’d found their way into Beleriand long before Morgoth’s return to Middle-earth.
ArPharazonV: made dealings with them, were disapproved of by the other dwarves, and cast out
Eonwe Valar: "Now the people of Caranthir dwelt furthest east... and they climbed the heights of Ered Luin and looked eastward in wonder, for wild and wide it seemed to them were the lands of Middle-Earth..."
ArPharazonV: then travelled in the wild, turned to their minion"friends" and diminished in their influence
VardaValar1: Aye, there were plenty of minions to do corrupting, Phar. Good point.
luthienathariel: Plenty of minions to pettify?
ArPharazonV: a mountain of minions
Eonwe Valar: It doesn't seem to me the Noldor knew they'd find Dwarves there, or that they were looking for them.
VardaValar1: Aye Luthien. : )
luthienathariel: *looking up "minions"*
ArPharazonV: Morgoth's minions, in this case
ArPharazonV: helpers, slaves, subordinates, henchmen
luthienathariel: ah: Minion:a servile or fawning dependant
ArPharazonV: right, that
luthienathariel: k
Eonwe Valar: On the Petty-Dwarves: if the influence of the Rings couldn't affect Dwarves, reducing them to wraiths, I'm not sure Morgoth could affect them in such a way either, seeing as they were made specifically to withstand Morgoth and his evil.
ArPharazonV: servants would be a good word, yes
ArPharazonV: I honestly do not see how they can have diminished or cast out if Morgoth didn't have something to do with it... maybe the remaining dwarves were more resistant to Sauron's powers, seeing as he was ultimately just a minion himself
VardaValar1: Even among the best people, some will turn out less good. For instance, Caranthir the Cruel was born in Valinor.
VardaValar1: Maybe these were some of the less good of the dwarves, turned out for pettiness (small-mindedness).
Eonwe Valar: As far as becoming dminished in smith-craft, I think I can answer that part easily.
VardaValar1: Among the first elves, the culls were more easily frightened and less noble, running from Orome and being caught by minions of Morgoth to turn to orcs.
Eonwe Valar: Before the Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod learned Cirth from the Sindar, they seem to not have had their own writing system, or not much of one at least. Thus, smith-craft and the like would be passed down through training and oral tradition.
Eonwe Valar: If there is no chance to pass that information down before the carrier of said information dies, so does that craft.
ArPharazonV: reinventing the wheel, eh
Eonwe Valar: The Dwarves of Erebor ran into similar problems, lamenting there were many great works they no longer knew the secret of.
Eonwe Valar: Seems to say smith-craft specifically was passed down by training, lest writing it down mean someone else can learn their secrets.
Eonwe Valar: As for the "dminished in stature, bowed shoulders, furtive steps etc" I'd tend to say a combination of poor diet living in the wild (on top of Dwarves preferring to focus on their crafts rather than cultivation of food) mixed with dodging Orcs.
Eonwe Valar: *and other servants of the enemy.
VardaValar1: True. This is how knowledge was lost in the Middle Ages, when a master died before passing on a secret to his apprentice.
Eonwe Valar: In the same place it says the Petty-Dwarves had little love for Elves, it says they hated Orcs.
Eonwe Valar: *feared and hated" even.
Eonwe Valar: The Dwarves of the Blue mountains had trade to give them Provisions they might not otherwise have gotten, and Dwarves further east eventually had Men with whom they could trade their smithcraft food provisions.
Eonwe Valar: Petty-Dwarves did not have such an advantage, being hunted by both Orcs and the only potential allies they might've had at the time, the Sindar.
Eonwe Valar: Oh, another comment,.. seems the Dwarves of the Ered Luin were trading with Elves east of the Mountains as well, since they brought rumours to Thingol of those Eldar's concerns about Morgoth's minions.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: oops
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, seems I was disconnected briefly.
VardaValar1: Welcome back
Eonwe Valar: Was anything said since my "Oh, another comment.."?
VardaValar1: Ered Luin were trading with Elves east of the Mountains as well, since they brought rumours to Thingol of those Eldar's concerns about Morgoth's minions.Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: I left out the first line, pardon.
ArPharazonV: just an "oops" between you leaving and entering :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe, ok
Eonwe Valar: If we have nothing more under this topic, I have one more question to pose, and them we can bang the gavel so our European members can get some rest if they like.
Eonwe Valar: topic = question
AriehnV: it was an interesting and compact article , neat work, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: rest would be nice
ArPharazonV: hey, look at this, I might be able to log in one more time for gift ;-)
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: dcd again?
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Considering that this part of the general article is only on LotR and the Sil, is there anything in these books (and since Phar mentioned it earlier, let's throw The Hobbit in here as well) that should be mentioned as pertinent to a general article on Dwarves that is not already there?
VardaValar1: The Hobbit is quite heavy on dwarf main characters. Will you be moving into that some?
Eonwe Valar: The Hobbit focuses on the Line of Durin, one of my reasons for ignoring it actually.
Eonwe Valar: I was trying to avoid too much specific history on any one line.
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
AriehnV: aiya Menel
VardaValar1: Aiya Menelvagor : )
ArPharazonV: aiya Menel
AriehnV: hows things Menelvagor? we were just about to bang the gavel i think Eonwe has written a new article about dwarves
AriehnV: and it was discussed more or less with open questions we still might have and what caught the eye
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, am I still here?
AriehnV: yeees :-) you are i think eonwe aye
Eonwe Valar: There's Menel..
Menelvagor Valar: Hey, you can see me now, that's good :-)
VardaValar1: you are now, Eonwe. : )
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Arien :}
ArPharazonV: oh, by the way, before I start saving and sending
ArPharazonV: Varda, did you notice I said 2008 last week? :-)
Gamatzgamatz: hey menel
ArPharazonV: haven't had a chance to check the site this week (too much stuff going on) but I hope you changed it somehow :-)
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves: Information from the Silmarillion and Lord of the Rings by Eonwe-(Valar) for a link to our new general article on Dwarves, Menel...
Eonwe Valar: Guess I'm back now..
ArPharazonV: yep
Eonwe Valar: For your later consideration, Menel, here are the questions posed for discussion today..
VardaValar1: 2008? Sounds like something I do now and then. : )
ArPharazonV: yep
Eonwe Valar: 1.)(Requires only light glance over the article. Be honest :} ) Did you "know" there was so much info to be had for a general article on Dwarves? :}
ArPharazonV: I'm now wondering if I headed my exams a few weeks back with a date saying 2008
VardaValar1: : )
ArPharazonV: ah yes, useful for the transcript-readers
Eonwe Valar: (Answers for this include mine: "I *knew* the info, but then putting it togetheron 'paper' it was like 'Wow, we've got more and varied info than I thought' :}")
VardaValar1: The variety is pretty amazing, and that's just the LotR and Sil! : )
Eonwe Valar: 2.)(Requires slightly more reading) Was there anything that surprised you/caught your eye in this article?
Eonwe Valar: (or put more simply, did you get something from the article you don't recall reading before)
Eonwe Valar: 3.)(Requires knowledge of what's in these books as well as the article)Considering that this part of the general article is only on LotR and the Sil, is there anything in these books (and since Phar mentioned it earlier, let's throw The Hobbit in here as well) that should be mentioned as pertinent to a general article on Dwarves that is not already there?
Eonwe Valar: Since you just got here, I won't make you answer these :} Unless you had a chance to read the article during the week :}
luthienathariel: (sorry for the delay) 2) no, although I'm unsure about the marriage bit
Menelvagor Valar: *goes quiet for a bit while reading the article*
luthienathariel: and 3) maybe the part about that the Rings given to the dwarves by Sauron (then naming himself 'Lord of Gifts' - I think it was Annatar)
luthienathariel: were the basis for the seven - what's the word again
luthienathariel: hoards?
Menelvagor Valar: meaning they are loyal to friends and do not easily forgot when they’ve been wronged ------ "forgot" should be "forget"
Eonwe Valar: Any responses for 3.)?
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: 2nd sentence in the 2nd paragraph in creation / description.
VardaValar1: found it, now fixing. Thanks Menel!
ArPharazonV: I'm off to bed
ArPharazonV: 6 and a half hours before the alarm goes
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending
luthienathariel: 6.5 hrs? that is plenty
ArPharazonV: it is, but I wouldn't want to make it less
luthienathariel: true
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: Correction online.
ArPharazonV (6:10:25 PM): saved  [Note: times in CST. Please add one hour for EST.]
VardaValar1 (6:10:27 PM): Hit reload/refresh.
luthienathariel (6:10:28 PM): oh I forgot something. I am working on a Sindarin translation of the song of Beren and Luthien
AriehnV (6:10:50 PM): nice one Luthien :-)
AriehnV (6:11:13 PM): You should get in contact with Valandil
luthienathariel (6:11:16 PM): I'm still discussing it with some others
luthienathariel (6:11:20 PM): who's he?
AriehnV (6:11:50 PM): he is a european Valar guild member as well and an ardent student of elven languages
luthienathariel (6:12:00 PM): oh I'd like to
luthienathariel (6:12:13 PM): wow, Eonwe keeps "leaving the room" it says here
VardaValar1 (6:12:17 PM): Tell him to get in AIM and look up Luthien too. : )
Menelvagor Valar (6:12:20 PM): Of their fate after the Last Battle, the Dwarves believe that Eru will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. They will then aid Aulë in remaking Arda.  ----- pertaining to question 2, I didn't know that, or can't recall. -> Death and Fate last sentence.
luthienathariel (6:12:22 PM): without getting in
VardaValar1 (6:12:25 PM): He's having major connection problems.
AriehnV (6:12:35 PM): bleh
VardaValar1 (6:12:46 PM): I remember it, Menel. If that helps. : )

luthienathariel (6:12:50 PM): how can I contact him?
Menelvagor Valar (6:13:07 PM): he can still be contacted in private messages it seems.
ArPharazonV (6:13:12 PM): And sent!
ArPharazonV (6:13:15 PM): Namarie all
VardaValar1 (6:13:17 PM): Aye, Menel
VardaValar1 (6:13:19 PM): Thanks Phar!
Gamatzgamatz (6:13:21 PM): namarie
luthienathariel (6:13:22 PM): Garo hîdh
AriehnV (6:13:25 PM): Namarie Phar :-)
AriehnV (6:13:42 PM): i think u can send him private message on the forum if nothing else works
Menelvagor Valar (6:13:51 PM): Well, there's more than a few things that I would not have remembered if not reading the article, but all of it except for that rings a bell :-)
VardaValar1 (6:13:55 PM): Send him a tell in AIM
ArPharazonV (6:13:59 PM): be sure to save everything else, Varda
ArPharazonV (6:14:05 PM): I don't think Eonwe's stable enough :)
VardaValar1 (6:14:10 PM): I think we're winding down
ArPharazonV (6:14:17 PM): still
VardaValar1 (6:14:19 PM): I'm chatting with Eonwe on the side. That stays stable.
ArPharazonV (6:14:23 PM): Menel's answer, Luthien's translation
luthienathariel (6:14:29 PM): varda, do I have an account in the forum?
VardaValar1 (6:14:40 PM): Put Eonwe Valar in your buddy list, click his name. He's on now.
ArPharazonV (6:14:40 PM): there's some things you'll want to add after my save
VardaValar1 (6:14:58 PM): Will do, Phar : )
AriehnV (6:15:04 PM): i am not sure whether he has an email address or whether he decided to keep it private
ArPharazonV (6:15:11 PM): Namarie!
VardaValar1 (6:15:20 PM): He has one
VardaValar1 (6:15:26 PM): It's on the Membership page.
VardaValar1 (6:15:39 PM): He's always tried to be easy to reach for us.
VardaValar1 (6:15:51 PM): You can talk to him right now on the side.
ArPharazonV (6:16:14 PM): tsk... Eonwe spamming the meeting
ArPharazonV (6:16:17 PM): not very Valar-like!
Menelvagor Valar (6:16:21 PM): The caves of Nargothrond (which “Of the Ruin of Doriath” tells us was called Nulukkizdin by them) were discovered first by the Petty-Dwarves, and they’d begun its delving.    -----  I recall it also says in the Sil that the petty dwarves were driven from Nargothrond by the Elves.
VardaValar1 (6:16:27 PM): Luthien, have you ever set up a forum account? If not, go ahead. We did have another Luthien-(V).
luthienathariel (6:16:33 PM): no, I do not
luthienathariel (6:16:38 PM): dont know how to get in
luthienathariel (6:16:46 PM): is it separate?
ArPharazonV (6:16:54 PM): adieu
Menelvagor Valar (6:17:06 PM): Also, for some reason I recall it being not only Nargothrond, but also the caves of Doriath, which names I cannot seem to recall.

AriehnV (6:17:08 PM): Namarie people :-) time for me to go as well
luthienathariel (6:17:11 PM): is the other Luthien-(V) still active?
ArPharazonV (6:17:12 PM): and for those WoWers still on their last candy, good luck with it
ArPharazonV (6:17:24 PM): I failed mine, trying again next year
VardaValar1 (6:17:28 PM): We did not remove her from the forum.
VardaValar1 (6:17:33 PM): Good luck next year, Phar!
ArPharazonV (6:17:43 PM): thanks
Menelvagor Valar (6:17:46 PM): ah, just found that in the next two sentences.
ArPharazonV (6:17:48 PM): *waves*
Menelvagor Valar (6:17:50 PM): Night Phar :-)
Gamatzgamatz (6:18:00 PM): i will have to leave as well, finishing up a paper. namarie to all
AriehnV (6:18:01 PM): (got my first pvp epic necklace .. and a nice epic mace from heroic nexus on me pali .. sidenote ;-) _
AriehnV (6:18:08 PM): Namarie :-)
VardaValar1 (6:18:09 PM): Use any name you like for your name to log in, but you might want to use Luthien-T for the display name.
ArPharazonV (6:18:12 PM): I got a wolvar-costume, Arien ;)
VardaValar1 (6:18:16 PM): Very good. : )
ArPharazonV (6:18:21 PM): 5 minutes every half hour, very nice
VardaValar1 (6:18:42 PM): I believe you put in luthienathariel. I'll look.
Gamatzgamatz (6:18:49 PM) has left the room.
AriehnV (6:18:51 PM) has left the room.
ArPharazonV (6:19:05 PM): better than the 10 minutes every hour for the iron dwarf costume, since I'm feral and shapeshifting cancels the form, I hardly ever get through the full 10 minutes, whereas 5 minutes is much more doable
luthienathariel (6:19:28 PM): aw, my name has been taken
ArPharazonV (6:19:39 PM): aw
luthienathariel (6:19:49 PM): Quelle Impertinence!
ArPharazonV (6:20:01 PM): well, Wolvar-Pharazon (Wolpharazon?) says goodnight!
VardaValar1 (6:20:13 PM): hehe - good night!
ArPharazonV (6:20:18 PM) has left the room.
VardaValar1 (6:20:19 PM): I think you took it, Luth
luthienathariel (6:20:25 PM): I did?
luthienathariel (6:20:26 PM): LOL
luthienathariel (6:20:59 PM): can you check that?
VardaValar1 (6:21:05 PM): checking, but I don't see luthienathariel. I do see Luthien
VardaValar1 (6:21:11 PM): Email is hidden
luthienathariel (6:21:18 PM): oh with capital L
VardaValar1 (6:21:36 PM): Zero posts.
luthienathariel (6:21:39 PM): Error: Invalid username/password combination. Please try again.
VardaValar1 (6:21:39 PM): aye
VardaValar1 (6:21:50 PM): Could be the other Luthien, but you can try it.
VardaValar1 (6:22:10 PM): You need Luthien T or some version thereof, then you can be sure it's yours. : )
luthienathariel (6:22:13 PM): can you see the registration date?
VardaValar1 (6:22:37 PM): ahh, it's not you.
luthienathariel (6:22:38 PM): if she never uses it, I could just as well use it
luthienathariel (6:22:47 PM): but I am me
VardaValar1 (6:22:47 PM): It's Canada, Jun 22, 2006
VardaValar1 (6:23:14 PM): Also shows you're a T member, nice to know.
luthienathariel (6:23:25 PM): if she's not using it, can I use it?
luthienathariel (6:23:39 PM): I could do that in the sig line
luthienathariel (6:23:49 PM): the T thing
eonwevalar (6:23:50 PM) has been invited.
luthienathariel (6:25:36 PM): I mean, after three years membership with zero posts you can rely that it is an inactive account
eonwevalar (6:25:56 PM) has been invited.
luthienathariel (6:25:57 PM): please? :)
luthienathariel (6:26:10 PM): pleaseplease :) :) :) :) :) :) ?
VardaValar1 (6:26:36 PM): She has come to meetings, just didn't use the forum.
VardaValar1 (6:26:42 PM): but we could do it this way
luthienathariel (6:26:57 PM): forum and meetings seem to be separate though?
VardaValar1 (6:26:59 PM): You log in with whatever you like, and we give you the Luthien display name.  [Note: Confusion arose here.]
VardaValar1 (6:27:03 PM): No
luthienathariel (6:27:04 PM): oh ok
luthienathariel (6:27:07 PM): that's cool
VardaValar1 (6:27:08 PM): Not separate.
VardaValar1 (6:27:25 PM): Better if you use a T to tell you apart, but we can see about it.
luthienathariel (6:27:25 PM): thank you!
luthienathariel (6:27:40 PM): I will put it in my sig line. But you'll see
VardaValar1 (6:28:46 PM): Now struggling with the forum.
VardaValar1 (6:29:02 PM): Did you put Eonwe Valar in your AIM buddy list yet?
luthienathariel (6:30:03 PM): me?
VardaValar1 (6:30:06 PM): Yes.
luthienathariel (6:30:07 PM): no
VardaValar1 (6:30:12 PM): Please do.
luthienathariel (6:30:15 PM): sorry, I was doing the forum thing
luthienathariel (6:30:22 PM): what's the handle?
VardaValar1 (6:30:25 PM): Luthien, I need you to use the T. [Note: result of a side discussion between two forum admins. Attempt to correct confusion. Bombs.]
VardaValar1 (6:30:26 PM): Eonwe Valar
luthienathariel (6:30:39 PM): nothing else?
VardaValar1 (6:30:41 PM): We will someday have another Luthien-(V)
luthienathariel (6:30:57 PM): sorry, I just registered with username melleth
VardaValar1 (6:31:02 PM): Just like Menelvagor Valar
VardaValar1 (6:31:05 PM): That is fine
luthienathariel (6:31:15 PM): but can you give me the display name like you said?
VardaValar1 (6:31:15 PM): The display name is what I'm talking about.
VardaValar1 (6:31:28 PM): I just changed her to LuthienEx  [Note: two forum admins agreed we need to fix the problem of inactives who still use the display names of actives. Adding the Ex is one admin's attempt to deal with it on the spot.]
VardaValar1 (6:31:37 PM): But please don't confuse the issue.
VardaValar1 (6:31:54 PM): When we get a Luthien-(V) again, she should be using Luthien.
luthienathariel (6:32:03 PM): why?
VardaValar1 (6:32:08 PM): You would be Luthien-(T) or Luthien-T
luthienathariel (6:32:16 PM): ??
luthienathariel (6:32:31 PM): no, sorry.
luthienathariel (6:32:34 PM): thanks.
VardaValar1 (6:32:36 PM): That is how we set up the system years ago so we could let Tolkien-onlies use the same names as Full Members.
luthienathariel (6:32:43 PM): k, I understand that
VardaValar1 (6:33:04 PM): Great!
luthienathariel (6:33:04 PM): but it goes against my feeling.
VardaValar1 (6:33:18 PM): We had to set up a system to tell them apart.
luthienathariel (6:33:31 PM): Yes, I understand that
VardaValar1 (6:33:41 PM): Not my rule. The whole Council at the time decided on it.
luthienathariel (6:33:42 PM): but I don't want to make my name different
luthienathariel (6:33:45 PM): sure
luthienathariel (6:33:49 PM): I am not blaming you
VardaValar1 (6:33:57 PM): We have others with different names.
luthienathariel (6:34:05 PM): I just do not want it, so then I cannot join the forum
Menelvagor Valar (6:34:19 PM): Good, the only thing Varda could ever be accused of is putting too much time and heart into the Valar Guild.
VardaValar1 (6:34:20 PM): You are trying to force me.
luthienathariel (6:34:21 PM): sorry if this is silly
luthienathariel (6:34:25 PM): no I am not!
luthienathariel (6:34:26 PM): please!
luthienathariel (6:34:34 PM): I do not.
luthienathariel (6:34:37 PM): Please.
VardaValar1 (6:34:39 PM): It is silly, and bribery. You are above that. Think please.
luthienathariel (6:34:49 PM): no it is NOT silly, and not bribery.
luthienathariel (6:35:03 PM): I just want to be true to what I feel
luthienathariel (6:35:09 PM): I wish you'd respect that
VardaValar1 (6:35:10 PM): You are ignoring what we worked hard to do and set in place to avoid confusion over years.
luthienathariel (6:35:18 PM): how can you say that
VardaValar1 (6:35:20 PM): I wish you'd respect us.
luthienathariel (6:35:22 PM): I do not force you
luthienathariel (6:35:32 PM): I just do not want to go along with it
VardaValar1 (6:35:36 PM): You are trying to, however.
luthienathariel (6:35:39 PM): no I am NOT
VardaValar1 (6:35:41 PM): Then don't.
VardaValar1 (6:35:54 PM): Try something else, like Luthienathariel.
Menelvagor Valar (6:36:14 PM): Luthienathariel, you are, at least in my opinion, pushing things very hard.
luthienathariel (6:36:30 PM): It is simply that you have a rule that I do not want to go by, so then I cannot do that thing. What is so hard about that? It is just a pity for myself, that I cannot join, but I am the only one who suffers from that.
VardaValar1 (6:36:38 PM): We already know you by that name. You are used to it, so Luthienathariel should work.
luthienathariel (6:36:39 PM): not you
VardaValar1 (6:37:25 PM): It would make a fine display name, you are already using it and we know you that way.
Menelvagor Valar (6:38:11 PM): Also, saying "If I can't have this, then I won't do that", is in most forms an act of extortion.
VardaValar1 (6:38:16 PM): Then you can leave out the T also.
luthienathariel (6:38:17 PM): i do not push anything. I just stick to what I feel comfortable with. I wish you would not make it such an issue! It is not that important.
VardaValar1 (6:38:40 PM): Why not use Luthienathariel without the T?
luthienathariel (6:38:52 PM): @ Menelvagor: you are now absolutely making this something it is not.
luthienathariel (6:39:14 PM): you all have things that you for some reason or another do not feel comfortable with
Menelvagor Valar (6:39:21 PM): I am not at all saying that you are doing anything of the kind, only that it seems that way to me.
luthienathariel (6:39:24 PM): and what is the point?
VardaValar1 (6:39:41 PM): I just explained the point. It avoids confusion.
luthienathariel (6:39:42 PM): just that I will not be in that forum. Is that such a large issue then?
luthienathariel (6:39:54 PM): my goodness.
VardaValar1 (6:40:04 PM): What's so bad with using luthienathariel?
luthienathariel (6:41:16 PM): it has gone beyond that
luthienathariel (6:42:01 PM): now
VardaValar1 (6:42:04 PM): ok, you made your choice. No worries.
VardaValar1 (6:42:13 PM): *bangs gavel*
Menelvagor Valar (6:42:14 PM): The point is that to me, you seem to make you using the forum, and whether you do or not is your business, part of a condition of your own. That is just something that rubs us (and sorry if I speak out of turn Varda) the wrong way.
VardaValar1 (6:42:18 PM): After-meeting
luthienathariel (6:42:24 PM): accusing me of extortion???
luthienathariel (6:43:22 PM): just once more: you state that i have to hand in my name if someone else comes along.
Menelvagor Valar (6:43:27 PM): Look, you are making this as big as you want to. I am not accusing you of anything, just of how I view it.
luthienathariel (6:43:33 PM): so then I say "no thanks"
luthienathariel (6:43:35 PM): that is ALL
luthienathariel (6:43:46 PM): Period.
Menelvagor Valar (6:43:46 PM): And about a dozen other messages.
luthienathariel (6:43:49 PM): OK?
VardaValar1 (6:44:38 PM): No one said that, Luthien.
VardaValar1 (6:44:52 PM): Your name is Luthien-(T). No one else's unless you quit.
VardaValar1 (6:45:15 PM): If a Luthien-(V) comes along, and you both say Luthien, we have confusion.
luthienathariel (6:45:23 PM): "VardaValar
When we get a Luthien-(V) again, she should be using Luthien."
VardaValar1 (6:45:36 PM): That is correct. That is the rule on the Forum.
luthienathariel (6:45:43 PM): ok, and that is fine
VardaValar1 (6:45:51 PM): The name with no letter on it is the Full Member.
luthienathariel (6:45:55 PM): and I even respect it
luthienathariel (6:46:09 PM): I just do not want it myself. Is that bad or silly or bribery?
VardaValar1 (6:46:12 PM): Or you can use an odd name like Luthienathariel and not put a T on it.
Menelvagor Valar (6:46:17 PM): then why the big deal about using -(T)?
VardaValar1 (6:46:42 PM): I am not arguing with you. I'm telling you the system.
luthienathariel (6:46:51 PM): now look - may I choose myself with what I feel ok and what not? Even if you think it is silly?
luthienathariel (6:47:00 PM): I know the system
luthienathariel (6:47:06 PM): we are not talking about it
luthienathariel (6:47:12 PM): I respect the system.
VardaValar1 (6:47:23 PM): Good. Glad you understand that we have a way of keeping down confusion. Let's stick to it.
luthienathariel (6:47:24 PM): I just do not *want* the system, so I do not *enter* the system.
VardaValar1 (6:48:01 PM): Then you don't respect it very much, really.
luthienathariel (6:48:12 PM): that is so not true.
Menelvagor Valar (6:48:13 PM): I agree.
luthienathariel (6:48:33 PM): who says I need to be a member?
VardaValar1 (6:48:37 PM): No one.
luthienathariel (6:48:43 PM): precisely
VardaValar1 (6:48:43 PM): It is a privilege.
luthienathariel (6:48:47 PM): yes
luthienathariel (6:48:58 PM): and if you enter it, you have got to stick to the rules
luthienathariel (6:49:01 PM): all agreed
Menelvagor Valar (6:49:06 PM): Varda, I am about to say something that may or may not be entirely diplomatic, I request permission to say what I have in mind right now.
luthienathariel (6:49:21 PM): what I just do not get is why I cannot choose to not enter it
VardaValar1 (6:49:28 PM): You can take it to a side channel maybe? I think we said all we need to say.
VardaValar1 (6:49:42 PM): You can and did choose.
VardaValar1 (6:49:45 PM): It is done.
VardaValar1 (6:49:50 PM): Good night, all. : )