September 14, 2008 Meeting
5pm EST (GMT - 5);
(GMT = 22:00)
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AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Transcript work by: Eonwë
Arien-(Valar)/AriehnV, Arwen/arwenv1, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv
Yavanna's creations and the Melkor element.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar : Heya
ArPharazonV : Aiya
Eonwe Valar : I may have to make this a quick business meeting (in 30 minutes, I know :}). Can you cover the Tolkien part?
ArPharazonV : isn't Varda going to be here?
Eonwe Valar : She was in hurricane Ike's path, so I don't even know if she has power right now.
ArPharazonV : ouch
ArPharazonV : well, give me a topic and I'll see what I can make of it, but in my hands it won't turn out very good
Eonwe Valar : Lucky for you I have a topic :}
ArPharazonV : let's just wait a bit and see
ArPharazonV : maybe Arien or Menelvagor will be here
Eonwe Valar : Most of the discussion will probably be speculative anyway.
Eonwe Valar : On the topic I have.
ArPharazonV : allright, we'll see then :-)
Eonwe Valar : If anyone else is feeling talkative, you may be able to let discussion go for a few minutes before even proposing the question, hehe.
ArPharazonV : :-)
Eonwe Valar : It all starts with a quote from the Sil,...
Eonwe Valar : Chapter 2, "Of Aulë and Yavanna" :
Eonwe Valar : (Insert small lead-in to explain the context of the quote)
Eonwe Valar : "'All have their worth,' said Yavanna, ' and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot.'"
Eonwe Valar : Provacative statement #1:
Eonwe Valar : For all her concern over Aulë's Dwarves chopping down trees, she doesn't seem to think much about the fact that some of her Kelvar (animals) eat other Kelvar :}
ArPharazonV : well, as long as its her creations :-)
Eonwe Valar : hehe
ArPharazonV : and as she said, the Kelvar aren't defenseless
ArPharazonV : well, anyway, I'll not discuss now
Eonwe Valar : Aye, save it :}
ArPharazonV : let's wait until meeting
Eonwe Valar : I wasn't trying to discuss, was trying to type it up so you have it to reflect on for Tolkien in case I have to go quickly. I'll hopefully be able to introduce it at least.
ArPharazonV : indeed :-)
Eonwe Valar : Look like it's time to send out the invitations according to my clocks :}
ArPharazonV : I think your lists are more up to date than me :-)
ArPharazonV : *mine
arwenv1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar : Apparently you're already in the channel :}
Eonwe Valar : Heya Arwen
ArPharazonV : since when is that a problem? I'm usually in the chatroom by the time you enter but you still manage to invite me anyway :-)
Eonwe Valar : hehe
Eonwe Valar : Well, it didn't let me invite you this time :} it told me you were already here :}
Eonwe Valar : You know, I could do a whole spin on the (Shakespeare's?) St. Cripsin's Day speech concerning my Tolkien topic, but no, I don't know if it's that good :}
ArPharazonV : I'm not sure I know that speech
ArPharazonV : under that name, anyway
Eonwe Valar : Did a quick search. Aye, it's from a Shakespeare play: Henry V, it looks like.
Eonwe Valar : It's been used in a few commercials lately, one of them a game commercial for some FPS.
ArPharazonV : any memorable lines I could know?
Eonwe Valar : For the advancement of Shakespeare, I'll just give you the entire speech as it is in my other window :}
Eonwe Valar : This day is called the Feast of Crispian:
Eonwe Valar : He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Eonwe Valar : Will stand a-tiptoe when the day is named,
Eonwe Valar : And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
Eonwe Valar : He that shall see this day and live t'old age,
Eonwe Valar : Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
Eonwe Valar : And say "To-morrow is Saint Crispian":
Eonwe Valar : Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars
Eonwe Valar : And say "These wounds I had on Crispin's day."
Eonwe Valar : Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
Eonwe Valar : But he'll remember with advantages
Eonwe Valar : What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Eonwe Valar : Familiar in his mouth as household words
Eonwe Valar : Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Eonwe Valar : Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Eonwe Valar : Be in their flowing cups freshly remembered.
Eonwe Valar : This story shall the good man teach his son;
Eonwe Valar : And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
Eonwe Valar : From this day to the ending of the world,
Eonwe Valar : But we in it shall be remembered;
Eonwe Valar : We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
Eonwe Valar : For he today that sheds his blood with me
Eonwe Valar : Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
Eonwe Valar : This day shall gentle his condition:
Eonwe Valar : And gentlemen in England now abed
Eonwe Valar : Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
Eonwe Valar : And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
Eonwe Valar : That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.
ArPharazonV : pre-battle speech by the sound of it?
Eonwe Valar : At 4, scene 3, Henry V
Eonwe Valar : Aye, Battle of Agincourt, according to the source.
Eonwe Valar : I need to read more Shakespeare, heh. Last Play I read was Cyrano de Bergerac, and it's been a few years.
AriehnV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar : Hye Arien :}AriehnV
: Aiya Eonwe :-)
ArPharazonV : I haven't read any Shakespeare since I started on Hamlet some years go, it melted my brains
ArPharazonV : or was it MacBeth...
ArPharazonV : I think it was the latter
ArPharazonV : anyway, been too long
Eonwe Valar : I think I have a copy of Hamlet sitting around here somewhere, been meaning to read it.
AriehnV : has anyone heard of Varda? how did it go with the storm with her? Is she all right?
Eonwe Valar : And Macbeth is doubtless in one of my British Lit books.
Eonwe Valar : Haven't heard anything from her.
Eonwe Valar : I'm sure they're all fine, but likely without power right now.
AriehnV : aye likely
ArPharazonV : surely! let's not get pessimistic
Eonwe Valar : Ike passed almost right over them, or was slated to, from what I was seeing on the weather trackers around landfall.
ArPharazonV : that can't be good
Eonwe Valar : Well, it went further east of me than it was slated to as well, so that may be a good sign for them.AriehnV: i hope they are all right
Eonwe Valar : Either way, I'm praying for them, and if it's your thing, you're welcome to as well. If not, well wishes will do I suppose :}
AriehnV : so do i and so i have :-)
ArPharazonV : *wishes well*
Eonwe Valar : :}
Eonwe Valar : So, shall we start the meeting? Looks like it's just we four, despite how many outstanding invitation I have.
Eonwe Valar : All those people are going to wish they'd been here for my Tolkien topic, hehe :}
Eonwe Valar : (Hence the St. Crispin's Day Speech reference :})
Eonwe Valar : Speaking of which, the last few lines starting with "We happy few" should be familiar from recent use.
ArPharazonV : yes, I recognized that line
ArPharazonV : not sure from what context though
Eonwe Valar : Used in a PS3 commerical for a game, used in "Band of Brothers" mini-series,..
Eonwe Valar : Wikipedia names other places you may know it from.
Eonwe Valar : Age of Empire 2: The Conquerors Expansion featured selections from it as well apparently.
Eonwe Valar : Anyway, let's get the meeting rolling.
ArPharazonV : I have that. I played it for a while. Not a lot though.
ArPharazonV : maybe I should find those cds again...
Eonwe Valar : :}
: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar : Varda and family, last I heard Friday, were hunkering down preparing for hurricane Ike.
Eonwe Valar : Storm track had it passing close to them.
Eonwe Valar : It veered further east from me than it was slated to, however, so I only got some wind and not really all that much rain. Sun's out today.
Eonwe Valar : I'm sure Varda and family are fine, just without power right now. Fangorn had got home in plenty of time and they stocked up on supplies.
ArPharazonV : well, that was some good luck for you then
Eonwe Valar : Aye
ArPharazonV : ah, good
Eonwe Valar : We'll have more details when Varda's able to get back in contact.
Eonwe Valar : Any other membership?
ArPharazonV : well
ArPharazonV : I noticed Menelvagor back online in WoW, even applying to a raidgroup I'm friends-status in, so I guess he's quite active again, I assume we'll see him in these meetings more frequently again
ArPharazonV : but for me, nothing so far
Eonwe Valar : I hope so. Hope meeting some of us in person didn't scare him, hehe.
Eonwe Valar : I kid, of course :}
Eonwe Valar : Games Page Mass-Update still in full swing. If you didn't send in your info yet, please do so soon. No answer is not an answer :}
Eonwe Valar : Even if you think you don't need to send in info, if you haven't you do :}
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv : Aiya
ArPharazonV : Aiya Flad
fladrifv : sorry for being late, had to burn some garden garbage
Eonwe Valar : Friday, Ancalagon was slated to lead a "Carn Dum Tower Prep Run" in LotRO, but as I have no reports on that, I can't say how it went. I was in WoW at the time, of course :}
Eonwe Valar : That's ok, meeting moving along quickly, will get to Tolkien soon :}
Eonwe Valar : WoW: Sauron, Eowyn, Bilbo, and Fangorn were all in WoW for a while on Friday, till about 2am our time Sat (3 Eastern).
Eonwe Valar : Elwing as well, pardon.
Eonwe Valar : Not all were on that late, but the last to log out was around that time as I recall :}
Eonwe Valar : Eowyn, Sauron, and Bilbo went into Blackrock Spire.
Eonwe Valar : I think Fangorn and Elwing were in Shadowmoon.
Eonwe Valar : Anyone play anything besides WoW of LotRO?
Eonwe Valar : of = or
ArPharazonV : yepper
Eonwe Valar : Of course Phar did :}
Eonwe Valar : What'd you play this week? :}
ArPharazonV : mostly some small games though, I spent most of my time in WoW...
ArPharazonV : but I am on the verge of installing a new and promising small game
ArPharazonV : similar to Katamari Damacy for those who know it, but for the pc, called Tasty Planet
Eonwe Valar : Interesting.
ArPharazonV : I'll report about it next week :-)
Eonwe Valar : Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar : Oh, for those who may not know, a recent patch for Starcraft and Broodwar allows us to set the games up to be played without the cd in the drive.
arwenv1 : teehee
arwenv1 : I played Warhammer online some
arwenv1 : and some diablo
Eonwe Valar : Cool :} Warhammer Online any good from your perspective?
ArPharazonV : not quite so recent, I've been playing that way for months, Eonwe :-)
arwenv1 : I like it a lot :-)
ArPharazonV : still, it's the *most* recent, anyway
Eonwe Valar : Aye, I knew it wasn't ercent, but not everyone updates BW as often as they should, hehe.
Eonwe Valar : ercent = recent
Eonwe Valar : Or rather, recent in the patch announcement meant that it was recent compared to otehr patches, not in release date, if that makes sense.
ArPharazonV : fair enough :-)
Eonwe Valar : Thanks for the link to the trailer, Phar.
Eonwe Valar : Arwen, you do know what I'm going to do know, right? :}
ArPharazonV : (I should run now before he asks you to write a review)
Eonwe Valar : know = now, bah..
Eonwe Valar : Exactly, hehe :} Prod Arwen for a review :}
Eonwe Valar : We do need more reviews for the Games Page though, unless everyone is happy re-reading mine over and over again, or the approximately 3 by other authors that have been up there for the last few years.
Eonwe Valar : I mean ,you do like the games you play, don't you? :}
Eonwe Valar : Ok, enough prodding for reviews. Any other gaming news?
ArPharazonV : WoW, 3.0 patch
ArPharazonV : is bound to come soon, because you can already download portions of it with the downloader in the background
Eonwe Valar : Aye, that's coming, and is moving to the background downloader, should be on the PTR soon if not already.
ArPharazonV : so far it's already at about 1g
ArPharazonV : 3.0.2 ptr just arrived I think
Eonwe Valar : I'm actually hopeful about Ret Paladins, but then I was hopeful when BC came out too, so we'll see :}
Eonwe Valar : The most important thing , of course, is that I enjoy playing my Ret Pally :}
Eonwe Valar : Oh, one more LotRo thing since Phar reminded me by mentioning the 3.0 WoW patch.
Eonwe Valar : A Dev diary on the Runekeeper is now up. Sounds interesting.
ArPharazonV : oh, when I say 1g I mean 1gb or gigabyte :-)
ArPharazonV : not one gold!
Eonwe Valar : I figured, but thanks for the clarification :}
Eonwe Valar : Ok, if there's no more gaming info, we can move into tonight's Tolkien topic :}
Eonwe Valar : One last reminder to get your gaming info in for the Games Page Mass-Update if you haven't already. i need it by Sept 30th to be in the fresh page.
Eonwe Valar : Tonight you have no choice. You get my topic :}
Eonwe Valar : Our topic starts with a quote from the Silmarillion.
Eonwe Valar : It comes from Chapter 2: "Of Aulë and Yavanna."
Eonwe Valar : Aulë had just finished the Dwarves and had them blessed by Eru. Yavanna was complaining that the Dwarves would have no love of the things she had created.
Eonwe Valar : Dwarves chopping down trees to fuel their forges and such.
Eonwe Valar : Aulë tells her the Children of Eru will do the same thing, "though, not by the purpose of Eru, without respect or without gratitude."
Eonwe Valar : This causes her to go to Manwë to verify what Aulë's just said, and Manwë confirms it. Of course, that's no comfort to Yavanna.
Eonwe Valar : So here we come to the quote:
Eonwe Valar : "'If thou hadst thy will what wouldst thou reserve?' said Manwë. 'Of all thy realm what dost thou hold dearest?'
Eonwe Valar : 'All have their worth,' said Yavanna, 'and each contributes to the worth of others. But the kelvar (animal-life) can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar (plant-life) that grow cannot.'"
Eonwe Valar : Now, I find it interesting that in all of this, Yavanna didn't seem to mind much that some of her kelvar were eating other kelvar :}
Eonwe Valar : Comments?
ArPharazonV : well, as long as its her creations that's doing it :-)
ArPharazonV : and, as she said, Kelvar are not as defenseless
ArPharazonV : survival of the fittest seems a bit fairer among the Kelvar ;-)
Eonwe Valar : So Yavanna's creatures can eat eachother, but Eru's children and Aulë's Dwarves aren't allowed to eat her creations? :}
ArPharazonV : might seem a bit fairer to her!
ArPharazonV : still, when the talk is about the children and the Dwarves, it's about the defenseless Olvar
ArPharazonV : and not just about food
Eonwe Valar : I don't see mountains going around eating precious metals :}
ArPharazonV : so it puts an extra edge on the matter
fladrifv : I think it was fine by her as long as it helped the total to get better
AriehnV : i agree with Fladrif , certainly Yavaneeh was aware that the Kelvar would depend on each other and the Olvar in order to survivie
AriehnV : she knew they would not go about killing and destroying mindlessly just for the fun of killing
AriehnV : or even take pleasure in doing so
fladrifv : unlike some other on the planet
AriehnV : your thinking about Isengard , Ent?
fladrifv : *releaves a deep hum* yes
fladrifv : and many other examples
ArPharazonV : *hides all his ships* no mindless chopping down trees here, nosirry!
fladrifv : why dont you swim oh mighty one of numenor?
Eonwe Valar : So she was ok with kelvar killing kelvar, but not with HUmans/Elves doing so?.
AriehnV : *sends many golden rays to make entings grow faster to chase the Numenorean destroyer*
Eonwe Valar : Hehehe
fladrifv : it would be more fair if she allowed elves to kill kelvar as much as they needed to survive
ArPharazonV : or in the words of the Eru-equivalent of the Silmarillion parody when Sauron attacked Aman with a fleet of ships..
ArPharazonV : Geeh, I didn't know that wood stuff could float, it looks so heavy!
ArPharazonV : or something among that wording
Eonwe Valar : Those are some good comments, and Phar's helps lead into the next part of my topic.
Eonwe Valar : Let's consider something perhaps a bit radical, if only for a moment.
Eonwe Valar : Phar mentions that in the passage the Dwarves are mentioned, it concerns primarily the olvar, the plant-life, trees specifically. Perhaps she is not concerned about kelvar eating kelvar because it was not part of her design.
Eonwe Valar : perhaps the carnivorous nature of some animals was introduced in Melkor's discord.
Eonwe Valar : Thoughts for/against that? :}
ArPharazonV : still, even other Kelvar would need to eat Olvar
ArPharazonV : unless they lived on air alone
Eonwe Valar : Aye.
Eonwe Valar : hehe
AriehnV : or if they werent Carnivores to start with they would need to eat something unless the Ainur would create some Manna like things that rain from the sky
Eonwe Valar : Many plants produce something edible (fruit) when encourages kelvar to grab it and spread the seed of that fruit elsewhere.
Eonwe Valar : when = which
AriehnV : true didnt think of that :-) so its really a give and take between Kelvar and Olvar in that sense
ArPharazonV : ah, yes, right
Eonwe Valar : Unless a herd of an animal gourges on a place, plants can usually spring back from losing a few leaves.
Eonwe Valar : *gorge
Eonwe Valar : Any more thoughts against this?
Eonwe Valar : Or for it?
ArPharazonV : hmmm
ArPharazonV : so it wouldn't be the same unless animals went off with entire trees or plants, right?
Eonwe Valar : It should be noticed that melkor tends to be assocaited with carnivorous animals.
Eonwe Valar : hmm?
ArPharazonV : that would explain why Dwarves and the Children would be frowned upon
ArPharazonV : they tend to take the whole tree down
ArPharazonV : anyway, how about Manwe's eagles? they don't eat leaves
Eonwe Valar : Aye.
Eonwe Valar : I was hoping I wouldn't have to point that one out myself :} Thank you, Phar :}
Eonwe Valar : That does seem to bring this line of thought into question. Manwë's eagles are presumeably uncorrupted.
Eonwe Valar : The question would be, at what point would such a drastic change have had to be introduced?
AriehnV : does that mean they do eat leaves? Thorongil and his lot certainly didnt... but they were not Manwe's eagkes just desednded from them
Eonwe Valar : Thorondor :}
AriehnV : lol you know me and names lol
Eonwe Valar : :}
AriehnV : aye Thorondor
ArPharazonV : she shines down on so many, hard to keep track of em :-)
Eonwe Valar : Thorondor was the King of the Eagles in the First Age, and Manwë's emmisary in Middl-eArth.
Eonwe Valar : hehe
Eonwe Valar : *Middle-Earth
Eonwe Valar : I have a quote barely in remembereable in the back of my head, and I have no recollection which of the HoME books it's from, so I'll try to give a short version.
Eonwe Valar : Melkor poured much of his strength into Arda, corrupting the very earth. Anything made/drwaing life from it would take on that corruption (I think that's how it goes in this quote, more or less).
Eonwe Valar : *drwaing =drawing. I'm going to have to start typing slower, hehe.
ArPharazonV : sounds a bit like Morgoth's Ring in which the principle was that he poured so much of his force into Arda itself, that it became his equivalent to Sauron's Ring
Eonwe Valar : Sounds about right.
ArPharazonV : Morgoth's Ring is... HoME 10?
Eonwe Valar : Aye.
Eonwe Valar : Of course Melkor/Morgoth himself became lessened because of this,
ArPharazonV : but it would have been impossible to diminish him like Sauron was diminished at the end of the War of the Ring
ArPharazonV : without destroying Arda itself
Eonwe Valar : Enter Fionwë, hehe
Eonwe Valar : Makes that "destroys the world to destroy his foe" make alot more sense if considered with that.
ArPharazonV : hehe, true
Eonwe Valar : Honestly, Manwë's Eagles is one of the best arguments against this idea that I can think of, but I think considering the concept espoused in Morgoth's Ring makes it plausible, although perhaps not more plausible
Eonwe Valar : than Yavanna setting it up that way in the first place.
Eonwe Valar : Kelvar killing other kelvar, even for food, does seem like something Melkor would cook up, though, doesn't it?
AriehnV : aye it would suit his personality
ArPharazonV : indeed :-) but still
ArPharazonV : the Children of Eru were not of Melkor's influence, and yet they too ate meat,right?
ArPharazonV (5:36:52 PM): same thing as with the Eagles, only their emphasis on having nothing to do with Melkor seems even greater
Eonwe Valar : Beren refused to eat meat.
ArPharazonV : he did? don't remember that....
ArPharazonV : but, apparently, significant in its own way :-)
Eonwe Valar : I don't remember enough about Morgoth's ring to speak authoritatively on all of its contents, but I tend to think that the hora (body).
Eonwe Valar : is the stuff of the earth, it would suggest a level of the "Morgoth element" in the physical form
Eonwe Valar : hora = hroa
ArPharazonV : as in its desire for meat :-)
Eonwe Valar : I don't recall if Elves ate meat. Wouldn't be surpised if it was done (probably mentioned in the Hobbit in conjunction with the Mirkwood Elves, don't remember), but most of what we see Elves eating in LotR is plant-based.
Eonwe Valar : At least as far as I recall.
AriehnV : well the Elves of Mirkwood hunted deer
Eonwe Valar : Which again is an article in itself, heh.
Eonwe Valar : Thanks Arien, so the Elves of Mirkwood at least ate meat.
Eonwe Valar : I'm afraid my time has run out, but if anyone would like to continue the discussion in After-meeting, I'm sure Phar would be happy to send in a copy of the meeting minutes with the further discussion included :}
ArPharazonV : will do!
ArPharazonV : hmm, have been playing this game throughout the meeting for a bit now, I love it so far
AriehnV : and .. i do seem to remember that Orome taught the Elves in Cuivienen to hunt?
ArPharazonV : oh, yes, I think so
Eonwe Valar : I hope the topic has been of interest, whatever your thought on the subject are.
ArPharazonV : Orome himself is a riddle in that case, as God of the Hunt
ArPharazonV : so to speak
Eonwe Valar : Aye, but the Hunt of what? Animals to feed on, or servants of Morgoth?
ArPharazonV : it is said he himself hunted within his own forests in Aman
Eonwe Valar : Seems to me he came to Middle-Earth for the latter.
ArPharazonV : oh, that's trueAriehnV: Ihehe all i am hunting now is sheep :-)
AriehnV : need to count them .. :-)
AriehnV : but likely not .. am tired enough as it is
Eonwe Valar : Ok, well let's bang the gavel then and let everyone who reads this discussion be jeaslous that they were not here on Kelvar Discussion Day :}
Eonwe Valar : *jealous
ArPharazonV : hehe
Eonwe Valar : *bangs gavel*
AriehnV : :aye it was Eonwe thanks to you
Eonwe Valar : Aftermeeting..
AriehnV : Namarie for now :-)
Eonwe Valar : Glad to hear it :} I thought if nothing else, it would be thought-provoking.
Eonwe Valar : Sleep well :}
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar : Take care all, good night, sleep well, and read Shakespeare :}