Valar Guild

October 12, 2008 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon, Fladrif, and Varda

Attending: (11)
    Aerandir V, Ancbeard, Ariehn, ArPharazonV, Bombur-(V)/MrMonkey2002Blah, Eonwe Valar, fladrifv, luthienathariel, Menelvagor Valar, Pallando-(Valar)/OrodrethV, VardaValar1


You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: aiya
fladrifv has entered the room.
luthienathariel: aiya
fladrifv: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Eklasia has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Ahem, sorry, bit early yet :P
ArPharazonV: Aiya Menelvagor
fladrifv: Aiya
Eklasia has left the room.
ArPharazonV: who's Eklasia?
Menelvagor Valar: No idea, but he's in my Valar group...
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: sorry, had to install an update :-)
Ancbeard has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: WoW, everyone's early.
Eonwe Valar: Greetings all.
Eonwe Valar: And welcome back Menel :}
Menelvagor Valar: Hey there Eonwe :-)
ArPharazonV: ah, you made it :-)
Eonwe Valar: Made it to pre-meeting, yes :}
ArPharazonV: hmm :-)
ArPharazonV: I took the liberty of telling Menelvagor and Arien to come on time for the meeting, just in case ;-)
ArPharazonV: made sure an officer will be online!
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Good, because I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to stay long enough to conduct the meeting, and I don't think Varda will be in either.
Eonwe Valar: Well, not in in time anyway.
Eonwe Valar: Menel, I hope you can cover us :}
Eonwe Valar: Shouldn't be too long of a business meeting, so you could get to Tolkien chat quickly.
Eonwe Valar: Delve into the important questions of Tolkien lore, like why Hobbits have hairy feet :}
Eonwe Valar: And the rest is silence,.. :}
Menelvagor Valar: Yeah, I can cover it.
Menelvagor Valar: Just playing WoW while I still can :P
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Menel :}
Eonwe Valar: Make Phar recite a complete history of Numenor while you're at it :}
Eonwe Valar: Or better, an essay: "Why I got trapped in the Forgotten Caves." :}
Eonwe Valar: Then a lineage of All dragons from Ancalagon, and a history of the Ents from Fladrif,... in Entish :}
Menelvagor Valar: If you insist
Eonwe Valar: (I assume you all know I'm kidding :})
Menelvagor Valar: were you really?
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, I thought "complete history," "lineage of all dragons," or at the very least the "in Entish" would've given it away.
Eonwe Valar: All of those things would take an unreasonably long time, if the information was even available. I guess my kidding failed miserably, hehe.
Menelvagor Valar: It didn't. I just pretended not to notice :-)
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, ok :}
ArPharazonV: complete history of Numenor.... "Here's an island! Don't come near us" "We won't!" "Hey, I wish we were immortal" "Let's attack the Valar" "Sploosh"
ArPharazonV: anything else you want to know?
fladrifv: in entish....hooom booom rooooo boom bom booom roo.....etc...
Eonwe Valar: That's the abridged version :}
ArPharazonV: I prefer the term compact!
Eonwe Valar: Ok, I must be off now :}
Eonwe Valar: Take care all :} Good to see you all here and ready for the meeting :}
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
AriehnV has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Arien
AriehnV: aiya all
fladrifv: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: Ok, please invite anyone you have one your aim list who has a right to be here :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Anyone doing any invites?
ArPharazonV: inviting Pallando/Orodreth :-)
ArPharazonV: also have a bunch of names I'm not sure they're in the guild anymore...
AriehnV: noonon online on my list except you guys
ArPharazonV: one of you try inviting OrodrethV too, he's not getting in on my invite
Menelvagor Valar: k, let's start then :-)

Menelvagor Valar: Elen sila lumenn omentielvo!
Menelvagor Valar: First up is membership news I believe, it's been a while *grin*
ArPharazonV: *nod*
ArPharazonV: check news page for news!
Menelvagor Valar: Don't see any personal news though.
Menelvagor Valar: A bit of news from me then:
Menelvagor Valar: I will be moving homes soon, losing net access in the course of next week.
Menelvagor Valar: Don't know when I'll have it back again, but hoping around the release of WotLK.
Menelvagor Valar: Any other news? :-)
Menelvagor Valar: If not, moving on.

Menelvagor Valar: Web news:
Menelvagor Valar: In 2 days time there will be an online event which is meant to be a party for the Children of Húrin Paperback.
Menelvagor Valar: Details can be found on the news page.
Menelvagor Valar: Any other web news?

Menelvagor Valar: Moving on to Gaming News then:
Menelvagor Valar: WoW Lothar:
Menelvagor Valar: Sauron, Varda, and Bilbo showed up for the usual Friday, even if briefly.
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe Valar (22:53:16): Lothar: Gained a couple of levels on both my Druid and up-and-coming Proection Paladin.
ArPharazonV: oh, Menel, for webnews, don't forget Eonwe's games page update :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Ah, right :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Ack, now I have Eonwë's coloring :P
Menelvagor Valar: I suppose Eonwë is very busy with the GPMU (Games Page Mass Update), though of course I have no clue as to how he's doing with that *grin*
ArPharazonV: I meant of course as in the news :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Rightyo :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Thanks for pointing that out Arphie.
Menelvagor Valar: Okies, back to gaming then :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe Valar (22:52:03): Uldaman: Gain a level for my Hunter on Wednesday, Elwing was doing well in Stranglethorn.
Menelvagor Valar: WoW Europe. Anything to report?
ArPharazonV: unless Arien has some, I guess just some news for WoW in general
Menelvagor Valar: Go ahead.
ArPharazonV: well, for starters, this week we'll get patch 3.0, the first step towards the Wrath of the Lich King expansion (due to release a month from now)
ArPharazonV: includes a lot of gameplay changes, including all the new talents, many mechanics change, and, for some collectors under us good news, all mounts and small pets on their seperate page (similar to the keyring I believe)
ArPharazonV: which means we'll end up with a lot more space :-)
ArPharazonV: achievements should also make their entrance in this patch, giving everyone new goals to work towards
ArPharazonV: a lot of news was announced at Blizzcon this weekend, my second point, including a lot of upcoming information about Wrath and where we're going with the game, and dual-spec: the ability to set up 2 talent-specializations and switch
ArPharazonV: between them at low costs
ArPharazonV: I only tuned in for the last bits of it on Wcradio (a sort of radio-server accessible online and with most music-players like media player and winamp) but I heard some good stuff anyway
AriehnV: ah well i cant download that update i am always getting stuck at 96 %
ArPharazonV: ah, yes, my last point, returning to the patch...
ArPharazonV: there's a problem most people seem to have pre-downloading the update, or the last 5% of it anyway
ArPharazonV: the torrent downloader seems to corrupt the data and makes it unable to continue, the main screen of it should show an error about problems saving data
ArPharazonV: which makes you stuck at 95% or just above
AriehnV: [yep there is a fix suggested in the technical support forum but its too complicated for simple gamers like me
ArPharazonV: it is a very common problem and all over the technical forum, as well as a solution, to find the torrent file in your WoW folder and download it using another torrent program
AriehnV: i am rather for blizzi to fix it
OrodrethV has entered the room.
OrodrethV: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: like utorrent or the one I happen to use, bittorrent
AriehnV: Aiya Orodreth :-)
ArPharazonV: if you have one of those programs, it's just a matter of finding a few files and setting up destination folders, should not be *too* complicated if you take a few more looks at it
Ancbeard has left the room.
Ancbeard has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: let me see if I can find the link to the thread
OrodrethV: What are we torrenting?
ArPharazonV: WoW patch 3.0
AriehnV: lol it has something to do with a problem most people seem to have with that patch there
AriehnV: when downlading the patch i and many others get stuck on the last five percent
ArPharazonV: and that concludes my WoW report
AriehnV: insert on my behalf
Menelvagor Valar: Any from you Arien?
AriehnV: as Ar Pharazon and Menelvagor may have noticed i have started playing a bit more on Argent Dawn again :-(
AriehnV: ./:-)
AriehnV: that one i meant ]
AriehnV: Valandil has been on holidays but he is back so hopefully we will be able to meet up again
AriehnV: i am even thinking of retransferring one of my high levels to AD again
AriehnV: ./
AriehnV: I miss you too much :-)
ArPharazonV: hehe :-)
AriehnV: that concludes my small but fine report :-)
Menelvagor Valar: My own report is more of the usual, though I have transfered my mage off AD to play with some friends occassionally.
ArPharazonV: gondoline?
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
ArPharazonV: that explains the "friend not found" messages I've been getting...
Menelvagor Valar: hihi
Menelvagor Valar: Shall we move on to LotRO?
Menelvagor Valar: Okidoke.
Menelvagor Valar: Some gaming going on in LotRO as usual.
Menelvagor Valar: Mines of Moria, first "real" expansion has been announced.
Menelvagor Valar: release date is 18th of november
Menelvagor Valar: I'm not aware of the specifics of what the expansion will contain, but logic tells me it's at the very least the Mines of Moria *grin*
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Vard!
luthienathariel: Suilad all :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Excellent timing.
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
OrodrethV: Aiya Varda.
Menelvagor Valar: We were just on the Mines of Moria expansion for LotRO.
AriehnV: Aiya Varda :-)
VardaValar1: O cool. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Care to enlighten us all with your excellent knowledge on the matter? *smile*
luthienathariel: G'day Bruces / Sheila's
ArPharazonV: Aiya luthien :-)
VardaValar1: Participants aren't really supposed to tell anything about the expansion in a public place, such as a chat room or website.
VardaValar1: Maybe they won't mind if I say Huge and Awesome?
ArPharazonV: oh, I'm sure some things are publicly known? :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I mean the announced changes *grins*
VardaValar1: Sure. Feel free to look at their website. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: What can the lazy type of (non)reader expect? :P
VardaValar1: Two more slots for characters, and two more characters. :-)
VardaValar1: Three huge areas
Menelvagor Valar: Cool :-)
VardaValar1: Eregion, Moria, Lothlorien
VardaValar1: The map shows a lot more cool places to come like Rohan and Mirkwood and more.
Ancbeard: Legendary Item System :-)
VardaValar1: That is really big, aye. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Ancalagon! long time no see.
Menelvagor Valar: will there be a level cap increase?
VardaValar1: Weapons for each class that are trained up with slots.
VardaValar1: Yes, to 60
ArPharazonV: brb, food
Menelvagor Valar: Does Turbine have the same compunction to new items as Blizzard?
VardaValar1: The music is great, orchestral
Menelvagor Valar: As in, will old "super" items become obsolete with the first random item found in the new regions?
VardaValar1: No :-)
VardaValar1: Rift items are still great :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Good, I didn't expect it, considering that items don't have as great an impact on the game as WoW.
VardaValar1: Have you played LotRO, Menel? They do make a difference, of course. I'm Rift geared.
VardaValar1: mostly
Menelvagor Valar: I have played in the past.
VardaValar1: It's changed a lot
Menelvagor Valar: Not lately though.
VardaValar1: Oh, Rumil came back last night to LotRO. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: But from what I could see is that items have an impact, but not as much as in WoW.
VardaValar1: Meriadoc was on too, recently had about 5 ribs cracked due to trying not to step on the cat.
Menelvagor Valar: in WoW, gear is just about everything.
VardaValar1: True, Menel.
VardaValar1: Crafting is a much bigger deal in LotRO, and the storylines.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: Yes, WoW has storylines, but not so solidly into it.
Menelvagor Valar: And from what I could see, the best items (so far) have come from either crafting or storyline quest rewards.
ArPharazonV: back from food
VardaValar1: Some very nice things from Rift questing, and from special places that drop barter items.
Menelvagor Valar: welcome back.
VardaValar1: Thanks for chairing, Menelvagor!
ArPharazonV: Hantalye
Menelvagor Valar: My pleasure.
Menelvagor Valar: Of course, I forgot a few things.
VardaValar1: Add them in as you can. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: especially in membership news :P
VardaValar1: Elwing, Eowyn, and I just returned home from the movies, hi from all of us. : )
Menelvagor Valar: Special hi's back!
Ancbeard has left the room.
Ancbeard has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Of course, there is the fact that Eonwe and Varda contacted Ar-Pharazon stating that they would at the least be late or not coming.
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe dropped in during pre-meeting and left a few notes.
Menelvagor Valar: Arphie in turn made me download AIM, so I could be here for the meeting so he didn't have to do it :-)
Menelvagor Valar: As in chair :-)
ArPharazonV: well, I'm not an officer, am I, I shouldn't have to ;-)
VardaValar1: We like to have you here. Thanks for doing your Maia work!
ArPharazonV: besides, it's your responsibility to come to the meeting, whether I ask it or not!
Menelvagor Valar: It was about time I got back anyways.
VardaValar1: On LotRO, I should mention that for the expansion, the special pricing deal is back. $199 for lifetime.
Menelvagor Valar: Not that it's long lived, as I will lose net access for the next month or so.
ArPharazonV: only for current or former players I thought, Varda?
Menelvagor Valar: I should still have that *grin*
Menelvagor Valar: Nope, for new players as well, as long as they sign up for that deal early enough.
ArPharazonV: ah
Menelvagor Valar: Probably will last a month or two.
Menelvagor Valar: And, since I haven't been in on the meetings since uhm... July 6th I think...
VardaValar1: It does say "upgrade pricing"
Menelvagor Valar: hmmm... I wonder what that means exactly.
VardaValar1: Get in on it early, you can get the special pricing.
ArPharazonV: Current and former players of The Lord of The Rings Online who purchase an early digital (before Nov. 18) upgrade to Mines of Moria qualify for the following special early upgrade benefits:
ArPharazonV: current and former players!
Menelvagor Valar: Thing is, lifetime subscription isn't exactly life-time if you have to pay again with every expansion.
OrodrethV: Just like to say: everyone who bought into LotRO's founder package must be laughing at the Hellgate folks..
VardaValar1: Are you saying someone here didn't have it?! :-)
VardaValar1: It is not like that.
Menelvagor Valar: Goodie :-)
VardaValar1: You never pay a monthly fee again.
VardaValar1: You do buy an expansion but it's a one-shot price.
ArPharazonV: it means that you can get it if you have a normal subscription instead
Menelvagor Valar: Just like normal then. Good.
ArPharazonV: and yes, I assume you can continue to play under your life-time subscription whether you buy the expansion or not, but you won't be able to see Moria :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Hmmm... didn't I come to a meeting around the 20th?
VardaValar1: Nov 18 is the expected release date.
VardaValar1: I haven't been keeping the Membership page properly updated on meetings, sorry.
Menelvagor Valar: I just checked the news archive.
Menelvagor Valar: 20th of july was my last meeting.
Menelvagor Valar: And that from Winnipeg, Canada *grin*
VardaValar1: Come back and find yourself chairing. ;-)
ArPharazonV: already that long ago, eh..
Menelvagor Valar: aye, that long... shame on me.
VardaValar1: Happy 11th Anniversary :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, happy 11th!
Menelvagor Valar: I will be having my own 10th in a month and a half! Yay!
VardaValar1: yay!
AriehnV: happy 11th indeed
Menelvagor Valar: erm... 9th.
OrodrethV has left the room.
VardaValar1: yay that too : )
Menelvagor Valar: hihi :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Oh, and I definitely plan on visiting the States again in the future!
VardaValar1: That's a compliment. : )
OrodrethV has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Possibly as early as in 2 years time :-)
VardaValar1: Aren't we the evil horrible country you see in the media?
ArPharazonV: he's planning to make it better :-)
VardaValar1: ok : )
Menelvagor Valar: Country? yes. People? Absolutely not.
Aerandir V has entered the room.
Aerandir V: aiya
Menelvagor Valar: Though I have to admit, country is based on a lot of subjective opinions.
VardaValar1: ok, sorry, let's not foray into politics here. : )
ArPharazonV: Pallando/Orodreth says that he can read what we're all saying but his messages won't get through
VardaValar1: Heya Aerandir : )
VardaValar1: ouch
Menelvagor Valar: A lot of the US' "horribleness" is just a difference in culture.
oessala has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aww.. sorry to hear that Pallando.
oessala: hello, does this work?
MrMonkey2002Blah has entered the room.
VardaValar1: yes!
oessala: yay
VardaValar1: We can read you now, Pallando aka Oessala : )
VardaValar1: Hey Bombur! : )
oessala: So what I've been trying to say is that I have you beat, Menel. I haven't been in a meeting since may, at least. :p
Menelvagor Valar: lolz :P
AriehnV: heya Bombur :-(
Aerandir V has left the room.
AriehnV: :-)
Aerandir V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: wrong smiley again, Arien!
AriehnV: me and my typing :-(
AriehnV: /
AriehnV: right smily this time pfft has entered the room.
AriehnV: all right we covered lotro and wow then i take it :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Pretty much :-)
ArPharazonV: 2 Luthiens?
Menelvagor Valar: Let's continue *smile*
Menelvagor Valar: Any other games played?
AriehnV: indeed there ewere
ArPharazonV: yep, Fladrif and I played a number of Warcraft 3 games and Arien joined us at a time as well :-)
AriehnV: and pretty much enjoyed it even though i was the loser by far heehe
ArPharazonV: since Flad got his cds back we've been playing a lot again, though we have trouble finding good custom maps we could do with 2 or 3
AriehnV: the game was one as whole though
ArPharazonV: you just need practice, I'm sure!
AriehnV: and we were the victorious team
AriehnV: aye i am sure too , and time to build a decent army
ArPharazonV: that we were
ArPharazonV: Fladrif and I have been improving ourselves as well, trying to get our lost skills back, and defeated 2 "normal" AIs today, so we're progressing well
fladrifv: We sure do, so if you dare to challange us....feel free
fladrifv: *grin/
fladrifv: *trying to show that he is not treeish* has left the room.
ArPharazonV: *hands the floor back*
ArPharazonV: it's heavy, don't drop it
oessala: I'm up for war3
Menelvagor Valar: Any other news I have somehow missed?
oessala: means spending money at the intertubes cafe until I get my new computer in a few weeks, but I don't care, really..
oessala: oops, sorreh
Menelvagor Valar: that's membership news there Oro :-)

Menelvagor Valar: At any rate, I suppose it's time then to go into Tolkien chat!
Menelvagor Valar: I'll hand the gavel to Varda, as I will turn in to sleep the few hours that I can before school tomorrow.
fladrifv: namarie Menel
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie! And until next month!
VardaValar1: Thanks, Pallando. It's also gaming news.
AriehnV: Namarie Menel and thanks for taking the helm until now
Menelvagor Valar: Thanks Arien, and my pleasure.
VardaValar1: Did anyone already have a Tolkien chat suggestion?
ArPharazonV: Eonwe came up with a few but jokingly
ArPharazonV: including the complete history of Numenor, lineage of dragons, history of the ents in Entish, and the question why Hobbits have hairy feet :-)
ArPharazonV: maybe you can find inspiration in those for a topic?
VardaValar1: I have plenty of inspiration. Wondered if you guys had a topic. :-)
VardaValar1: I refuse to discuss in Entish. : )
VardaValar1: at least not in Old Entish.
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: Hobbits are strange though.
VardaValar1: They are supposed to be an offshoot of Men, migrated out of the East.
VardaValar1: Men first appeared in the East and were promptly taken over by Morgoth.
VardaValar1: Some rebelled and went west, met the Elves and became the Dunedain or Edain.
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: Hobbits were already a short and different people when they reached Rohan, suggesting they were different back in the East.
VardaValar1: But why they were so different is not told.
VardaValar1: Why elvishly pointed ears? Why short and chubby? Why hairy feet usually unshod as they were as good as shoes already?
ArPharazonV: it is said that those not of the Edain were shorter than the Edain, and it is possible that the Hobbits derived from them, though their kind nature would not be explained that way
ArPharazonV: supposing they're a *very* early offshoot and were never corrupted by the Dark Lord in the first place?
ArPharazonV: they seperated before Morgoth came to them?
VardaValar1: Perhaps in hiding first?
ArPharazonV: it would explain their sturdiness concerning the Ring
VardaValar1: That could work.
VardaValar1: Or they left right away not liking the way Morgoth talked or acted.
VardaValar1: Morgoth tends to lack subtlety, one reason he needed Sauron.
ArPharazonV: of all Men we have encountered, they are the most seperated, more than the Edain and the other Men were
ArPharazonV: could be
VardaValar1: I like your suggestion on their resistance to the darkness.
ArPharazonV: in that case they might have run into Avari rather early and learned agriculture?
VardaValar1: They may even have met the Entwives, who we know taught agriculture to men.
luthienathariel: (bwah, those pointy ears again *rolleyes*)
ArPharazonV: also possible
VardaValar1: Perhaps the hobbits' being in the Shire caused some Entwives to flee that way, after their lands were destroyed, becoming the Brown Lands.
ArPharazonV: maybe they *did* mingle with some Avari at the beginning, explaining the ears and the nimbleness and the prolonged longevity...
VardaValar1: hairy feet?
ArPharazonV: that could be an issue, yes ;-)
VardaValar1: Maybe they were an offshoot of the Pukel men, like Ghan-buri-ghan.
VardaValar1: Or some way in that line of Men.
ArPharazonV: the Pukel men mostly remained in the West, though, I think, while first Hobbit mention in the West was after they were already off-shot and crossing the Misty Mountains
VardaValar1: East, you mean, and yes.
ArPharazonV: no, I meant west :-)
VardaValar1: The Hobbits were already hobbitish when they started migrating.
ArPharazonV: the first ancestors of the Pukel-men are even mentioned in Beleriand, and the more recent Pukel-men seemed to have stayed rather west/south of the Mountains
VardaValar1: Ghan's people were near Gondor, where they were later given land by Aragorn.
VardaValar1: Anyway, the point is that they may have been of a similar ancestry?
ArPharazonV: perhaps, but then it would have to be before the Druedain arrived in Beleriand?
VardaValar1: Rather than needing an elvish crossing, one that should not have happened, as it is said there were only a few and they are known.
VardaValar1: Yes.
ArPharazonV: we don't know that, we know very little about the Avari in the East and any encounters they had with humanity
VardaValar1: I think it would be before any humans moved out of Morgoth's territory.
VardaValar1: That moves into an area in which I have nothing with which to speculate intelligently. : )
ArPharazonV: and any crossings that happened there would not have been reported in "main" Elvish literature
ArPharazonV: yes, of course, but it also means we can't *exclude* such events
VardaValar1: It seems pretty unlikely that a man and elf cross would be so short.
luthienathariel: true
VardaValar1: I could see a dwarf man cross more easily.
VardaValar1: But hobbits are still shorter than dwarves.
luthienathariel: yes
luthienathariel: and very different in nature too
ArPharazonV: that wouldn't explain the nimbleness (as reflected in their ability to disappear) or their.. well.... pointy ears
VardaValar1: We don't know if dwarf ears are pointed or not. : )
ArPharazonV: true, true
VardaValar1: I tend to go with the "not likely" crowd though.
ArPharazonV: still, a crossing might not be necessary
VardaValar1: I doubt there was a crossing.
VardaValar1: They are supposed to be a race of Men.
ArPharazonV: if they just *lived* among the Avari for some time, or in similar woods..
ArPharazonV: it might be enough to "evolve" some pointed ears into them, as well as said nimbleness
ArPharazonV: the shared lifestyle might bring about some similar appearance-changes
VardaValar1: They had to be good at hiding to keep hidden from Morgoth.
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ArPharazonV: yep
ArPharazonV: we don't know what pointed ears are good for, but whatever advantage Elves might have out of them may have worked for the Hobbits
ArPharazonV: simple natural selection in a way :-)
VardaValar1: We know the elves had more than one physical type when they were first awakened. Could have been true of men.
ArPharazonV: that is also possible!
VardaValar1: Hearing advantage, as when you cup your ears with your hands to improve reception.
VardaValar1: Or just to make them more beautiful.
ArPharazonV: true, true, thanks for demonstrating my point ;-)
ArPharazonV: if Hobbits went into hiding early on, they would have developed hiding skills and well-trained ears
VardaValar1: They may have been already partly built for it, then added to it by survival selection.
ArPharazonV: and if they met Entwives or Elves they might have picked up agriculture
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: *nod*
VardaValar1: Not much more we can add in the speculation, is there?
VardaValar1: Might need to do some more reading.
ArPharazonV: who knows, even the Hobbits might have split into 3 groups early, and some were more acquainted (that can't be spelled right..) with Elves and some with Dwarves?
ArPharazonV: although they all ended up in the same area east of the Misty Mountains
VardaValar1: The Hobbits did split into three groups fairly early: Stoors, Fallohides, Harfoots.
VardaValar1: Gollum's people were of the Stoor type.
VardaValar1: Harfoots were the most numerous.
ArPharazonV: but more likely is that they *arrived* there early and split up then under foreign influences
VardaValar1: Fallohides were the most adventurous and more comely.
ArPharazonV: instead of splitting up early and all 3 ending up at the same place
VardaValar1: The elves were made with three types to start.
ArPharazonV: yes, but these are already one sub-species of Men to begin with
VardaValar1: Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri (includes Sindar and Avar)
VardaValar1: Aye. Why not split up even more than the Elves?
ArPharazonV: an even bigger differentation among them from day 1 doesn't seem very likely to me
ArPharazonV: but it's possible
VardaValar1: Morgoth was big on messing with Eru's creations to make them his.
VardaValar1: He may have tried changes.
ArPharazonV: whatever the case, even if they were once a whole, the splitup could have occurred very early, not long after them leaving the main human population
ArPharazonV: sorry, evolution is one of my favorite topics, and just trying to apply trends and patterns I learned in the last year :-)
VardaValar1: Good to do.
ArPharazonV: of course, its mechanics might be completely different from Middle-Earth
VardaValar1: The when is tough.
VardaValar1: The easterlings and southrons were darker. Maybe adapting to the heat.
ArPharazonV: climate heat, or the heat of Morgoth's forces? :-)
VardaValar1: Humans with their quick lives would be able to develop new types much more quickly.
ArPharazonV: yep
ArPharazonV: and in any case, shooting off early before becoming corrupted would keep their longevity more intact
VardaValar1: Likely true.
ArPharazonV: those who fell under worse corruption and served under Morgoth are already known to have lesser lives, I think
ArPharazonV: even apart from the longer lifespan granted to the Edain by the Valar
VardaValar1: Hobbits were less corruptable because they were not ambitious to rule others.
ArPharazonV: Hobbits could simple be the other end of that line
VardaValar1: Aye.
ArPharazonV: and of course healthy agricultural food might help ;-)
VardaValar1: heeh
VardaValar1: True
VardaValar1: Hobbits are known to have large numbers of children, which allows for more types to adapt to situations.
ArPharazonV: hobbits might be less corruptable from the beginning, it's also possible they left early or even before Morgoth's arrival
ArPharazonV: even the Edain were corrupted at some point, and sought redemption from the start, that "original sin" as I'll call it played a part in all their history, coming to fruit once more in Numenor
VardaValar1: They certainly knew about Morgoth and seemed to be fleeing him or his forces, heading west all the time.
ArPharazonV: if hobbits weren't corrupted in the first place, it would explain their uncorruptability and unambitiousness now
VardaValar1: Not all the Edain fell to corruption. There were the Faithful.
ArPharazonV: or they might just have had a natural advantage from the first awakening, who can tell?
ArPharazonV: yes, but still
VardaValar1: Possible.
ArPharazonV: *before* the wars of Beleriand and the coming of the Edain there, they had already been corrupted
ArPharazonV: those 3 Houses we know of did not leave because they rejected Morgoth in the first place, they had accepted him already and now sought redemption
VardaValar1: Since Men seem to have awakened already under the shadow, they would have been in some danger of corruption.
ArPharazonV: exactly!
ArPharazonV: and that is where Hobbits might stand apart
VardaValar1: Eowyn asks if the StarCrafters would like to join up with her after this discussion.
VardaValar1: Aye.
ArPharazonV: not me I'm afraid, going to bed after this
VardaValar1: Fladrif?
ArPharazonV: Hobbits might have seperated before that shadow
ArPharazonV: explaining their purity in the Third Age
ArPharazonV: if they never accepted Morgoth in the first place they would be less susceptible to renewed corruption later
VardaValar1: It would sure help. :-)
VardaValar1: ok, I need to make supper for family and guests.
ArPharazonV: a race of men that ran into Elves before running into Morgoth...
VardaValar1: Thanks for a great discussion, Phar!
VardaValar1: They would be more like Elrond.
ArPharazonV: it could have been Hobbits :-)
VardaValar1: half-elves
VardaValar1: Not short hairy-footed types, most likely. : )
ArPharazonV: if their first influences were Avari...
VardaValar1: Hairy-footed Avari?
ArPharazonV: I thought we'd forgotten about crossings already? ;-)
ArPharazonV: influences, not genes!
VardaValar1: Book says offshoot of men. Not crossing.
ArPharazonV: I know, I know
VardaValar1: I think we are starting to repeat, then.
ArPharazonV: I was never talking about Half-elves in that last bit, I just meant if they ran into Elves earlier than they met Morgoth it could have produced hobbits
VardaValar1: Yes, the escaping early hobbits probably met Avari, Ents, Rohirrim.
ArPharazonV: I'm not saying anything about elf-man halfbreeds there :-)
VardaValar1: Men were apparently awakened already under the shadow.
VardaValar1: Maybe the hobbits were out on the edge.
ArPharazonV: there is a story somewhere.. I think book 10 or 11, that tells of the first story of Men and their encounters with Morgoth
VardaValar1: Less influence, better chance to run.
VardaValar1: The Andrath and Finrod one?
ArPharazonV: I don't remember the details but indeed there's a good chance that Hobbits were on the edge of things and never had much to do with Morgoth in the first place
VardaValar1: I may have her name wrong, started with an A. : )
ArPharazonV: yes, that one
VardaValar1: As Merry says, it can be good to be overlooked. : )
ArPharazonV: haha
ArPharazonV: it would explain a lot, at least
VardaValar1: Aye.
ArPharazonV: but still not the original question...
ArPharazonV: hairy feet? ;-)
VardaValar1: One of the different races of men, maybe including Ghan's folk and hobbits?
ArPharazonV: sure, they could have started out with hairy feet
VardaValar1: Ghan was a barefoot wonder too, I think. Have to re-check.
ArPharazonV: or they might have developed as they were on the run and had no time to sit and make shoes
ArPharazonV: and of course, hairy soles might be quieter in hiding than shoes
VardaValar1: Like moccassins.
ArPharazonV: *nod*
VardaValar1: I need to cook, you need to sleep. Namarie for now. : )
ArPharazonV: Namarie :-)
ArPharazonV: good discussion
VardaValar1: aye, thanks for chatting, Phar. :-)
ArPharazonV: I never thought so much about this subject before!
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: that's what Tolkien-sections are really for, though, I suppose ;-)
VardaValar1: Correct!
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AriehnV: all right enjoy and have fun L(
ArPharazonV: wrong "smiley" again ;-)
AriehnV: i have to go now i fear :-( earlies tomorrow
ArPharazonV: allright, Namarie
ArPharazonV: I shan't be long either, will be saving and sending soon
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
ArPharazonV: and I shall put it to all of you (points finger across the room) to continue this transcript if anything else interesting happens!
AriehnV: and dream of hairy feet
AriehnV: ;-)
ArPharazonV: :-)
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ArPharazonV: saving and sending