March 9, 2008 Meeting
5pm EST (GMT - 5);
(GMT = 22:00)
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AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharazon and Varda
Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, ArPharazonV, arwenv1, Elwing
V, Eonwe Valar, Fladrifv, Glorfindel VG, Farmer Maggot-(V)/thesirg3,
Proposal to add Tengwar to Unicode.
Meeting begins (in Before-meeting)
Membership (in Before-meeting)
Outpost 2, StarCraft, WoW, LotRO
How did Tolkien came to know horses so well, and how did it show in his writing?
How a ring of air could raise the Bruinen. Continued on to other rings of power both Greater and Lesser.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Yay Phar!
ArPharazonV: I *knew* it started an hour earlier today...
arwenv1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: You settled that last meeting. :-)
VardaValar1: Heya Arwen :-)
thesirg3 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
thesirg3: I'm not around for too long
VardaValar1: You're here at all! That's cool. :-)
Eonwe Valar: heya
thesirg3: I came across this the other day...
thesirg3: Proposal to encode Tengwar in Plane 1 of ISO/IEC 10646-2
thesirg3: proposal to add Tengwar to Unicode
VardaValar1: oh wow : )
thesirg3: they denied the Klingon proposal though
Fladrifv has entered the room.
VardaValar1: In order to provide a
standard Tengwar character coding for such scholars and enthusiasts, it
has been suggested that this character set be included into the Unicode
standard and ISO 10646.
VardaValar1: end quote
VardaValar1: Think of the security. Almost as crazy as Navaho coding.
Eonwe Valar: Is that a serious proposal or a joke one? I've heard some joke RFCs pop up around April Fools.
VardaValar1: Mix Tengwar and Klingon. : )
ArPharazonV: what *is* Unicode, exactly?
thesirg3: I think it's a serious proposal
Eonwe Valar: Considering that one would have to be able to understand
Tengwar to crack it, I'd say it's more secure than more actual
VardaValar1: Eonwe would be in wide demand as a Tolkien coder.
thesirg3: Unicode is a standard for mapping bytes to characters
thesirg3: it encompasses all the human languages
VardaValar1: Maybe that's why Klingon didn't make it. : )
ArPharazonV: pff, Tengwar is Elvish...
thesirg3: it also has a ton of symbols
VardaValar1: Studied in Gondor too. But aye.
Sarujil has entered the room.
thesirg3: music notation
VardaValar1: Aiya Anc : )
ArPharazonV: true, but I guess there were humans in Star Trek who studied Klingon too
Eonwe Valar: And at least the original version had no vowels.
VardaValar1: Tengwar coding has been proposed. : )
VardaValar1: Maybe the Klingon proposal wasn't done well enough?
thesirg3: http://www.unicode.org/charts/ -- shows which scripts are encoded
ArPharazonV: hmm, upgrading Java, hope it doesn't need to reboot my pc
VardaValar1: I've got the first part of the chat covered, Phar.
Elwing V has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Elwing : )
ArPharazonV: oh, it completed without requesting so, so all's well!
Elwing V: Aiya Varda!
VardaValar1: Get DeepGroover-(TV)'s birthday party taken care of? : )
Eonwe Valar: Heya Elwing
Elwing V: We're doing that tonight - putting on the Lobster bib :-)
VardaValar1: ohh fun : )
VardaValar1: We seem to have done Membership and some Web in
Before-meeting, fun way to do it when we're a smallish group like this.
VardaValar1: Any more Membership news?
VardaValar1: Now they dry up. : )
VardaValar1: Hi from Eowyn.
VardaValar1: Web news:
VardaValar1: The Tengwar script proposal just mentioned : )
Elwing V: Hi Eowyn!
VardaValar1: More Tolkien Site stories online for your reading enjoyment.
VardaValar1: 6 more stories from Branwyn-(TV)
VardaValar1: I hope to get caught up eventually. : )
VardaValar1: Quite a range of characters: Lobelia, Theodred and
Grimbold, Imrahil with young Boromir and Faramir, and horses. : )
VardaValar1: The list is on the news, but if anyone wants, I'll happily list them off here.
VardaValar1: Any want the urls here?
VardaValar1: Any further web news? Eonwe maybe?
Eonwe Valar: Not from me, sorry.
VardaValar1: Did anyone game outside WoW or LotRO this past week?
VardaValar1: Did anyone game inside WoW or LotRO this past week? : )
VardaValar1: (LotRO here)
Eonwe Valar: I popped into WoW for a few moments last night.
Eonwe Valar: Got some quests done on my Priest.
VardaValar1: How's the connection looking?
VardaValar1: Long moments. ; )
ArPharazonV: I gamed outside WoW, sorry
Eonwe Valar: Cable looks great :}
VardaValar1: Dracxil getting to game any?
VardaValar1: ok, on to WoW reports.
Elwing V: I WoWed some : )
VardaValar1: Argent Dawn have a report?
VardaValar1: Phar, did you want to report on your outside WoW gaming?
ArPharazonV: don't think so, Menelvagor contacted me to say he was back, but we knew that already ;-)
VardaValar1: Nice to have it confirmed that it's really him.
ArPharazonV: eh, it's not a problem, I have done some gaming and I am planning on some gaming, nothing worth mentioning I guess
VardaValar1: Seen Valandil or others?
ArPharazonV: Arien online, but we didn't group together
ArPharazonV: as for the other game, it has
multiplayer, but the main multiplayer servers are down because it's a
rather old game, and while there are other ways I don't know many
people who play it :-)
ArPharazonV: it's called Outpost 2
ArPharazonV: but when I'm done with its campaigns I think I'll be going into Starcraft for a bit, so who knows, we could meet up in that time
VardaValar1: Sauron said he preferred the 2-D StarCraft graphics to the new ones. Maybe they'll improve.
ArPharazonV: Maybe! Me, I'm looking forward to a game with the style of
Starcraft but the features/improvements of Warcraft 3 and beyond
ArPharazonV: I mean, they learned a lot since the first one, and while
I wasn't too fond of Starcraft-gameplay, the combination could be golden
VardaValar1: We'll hope. : )
ArPharazonV: as for the graphics I don't know
ArPharazonV: but go ahead, I'm done now I think ;-)
VardaValar1: Thanks for reporting, Phar : )
VardaValar1: WoW Lothar: we know Eonwe made it on last night with his priest.
VardaValar1: Eowyn, Fangorn, Bilbo, and Sauron played during the week.
VardaValar1: Arwen was on I think, thanks for hanging out in Valar channel. : )
VardaValar1: Gelmir has been around - rejoined us in Lothar. May have reported that last week.
VardaValar1: Uldaman server. Elwing, do you have a report?
Elwing V: I was on Wed even a bit
VardaValar1: Excellent. What area?
Elwing V: Mostly I do my hunter there
VardaValar1: That is the troll? I came in for a bit, but not on Wed, with my troll hunter too. : )
Elwing V: I am between undercity and barrens areas mostly
Elwing V: my hunter there is blood elf - RoseRedDawn : }
VardaValar1: So, you are a contributor to the infamous Barrens chat?
Elwing V: not sure...possibly - several I see are "infamous" :-)
VardaValar1: On to LotRO
VardaValar1: We've been having the start of the latest festival.
VardaValar1: It got off to a shaky start, but the programming was smoothed out.
VardaValar1: Now we can attempt to walk a fence while drunk, attempt to
collect flowers for love and barter, and wonder about Secret Admirer
notes popping into our mailboxes from the game.
VardaValar1: New cosmetic abilities have been added.
VardaValar1: We can continue to wear our regular stat outfits, with either of two differently equipped skins over it.
ArPharazonV: there's sure a lot of festivals in that game, hm?
VardaValar1: Aye. Change of seasons tend to do it.
VardaValar1: Spring now.
VardaValar1: On to Tolkien!
Elwing V: festivals are fun...sometimes over too quick for all the stuff you can do in them
VardaValar1: We've had a request from a group of equestrians for a big article on Tolkien and horses.
VardaValar1: How Tolkien came to know horses so well, how it showed in his writing.
VardaValar1: They want to put the article on their website for other horse enthusiasts. We get to keep it as well. : )
VardaValar1: Does anyone have anything they would like to see included?
ArPharazonV: I'd like to see Bill the Pony ;-)
VardaValar1: For sure!
VardaValar1: What made you like Bill?
VardaValar1: Aren't you the one who wanted to put him up for Maia status instead of storage for Sam? : )
ArPharazonV: doesn't ring a bell
VardaValar1: Someone suggested it a few years back, brought it up now and then as a running joke.
VardaValar1: I know we have some horse nuts in here. Any more
suggestions for what you'd like to see mentioned about Tolkien and
ArPharazonV: why do I like Bill... loyalty, strength despite such a weak appearance, and that sad moment at Moria I guess
VardaValar1: He improved under the Fellowship's care, even during such a hard journey as a pack animal.
VardaValar1: Gandalf put a spell on him to guard him as well as he could on the way home alone.
Elwing V: I'd like to see something about the horses the Nazgul rode, how they got them for example
VardaValar1: Aye. They stole black horses from Rohan, then trained them in Mordor.
Elwing V: Rohan had all or mostly mearas breed, I thought, so doesn't
seem like they'd be easily trainable for that purpose, unless they were
done rather like elves to orcs
VardaValar1: The contact from the equestrian group was surprised at all
the little details in LotR showing JRRT really knew horses.
VardaValar1: Rohan had mostly horses. Mearas were rare.
ArPharazonV: of course, if you're gonna steal horses, might as well make it Mearas
Elwing V: didn't they still look mostly like normal horses? Nazgul steeds, that is
VardaValar1: Aye, Nazgul horses were real horses.
Elwing V: Nazgul horses, to be exact (fel steeds sure didn't look like horses! : )
VardaValar1: They lent their physical senses to the Ringwraiths.
VardaValar1: Here's one of the comments from the letter, where JRRT shows detail that a horseman would know:
VardaValar1: tightening girths, riding light and "with spare horses lightly burdened."
VardaValar1: "Giving his reins to Merry, he ran forward and embraced the newcomer." (Only a horseman would think of that.)
VardaValar1: "The horses would not pass the threatening stone, until the riders dismounted and led them about."
VardaValar1: "And indeed the love
that the horses of the Rangers bore for their riders was so great that
they were willing to face even the terror of the Door, if their
masters' hearts were were steady as they walked beside them.
VardaValar1: But Arod, the horse of
Rohan, refused the way, and he stood sweating and trembling in a fear
that was grievous to see....."
VardaValar1: Stopping now. : )
Elwing V: I imagine JRR probably rode about some on his own thru countryside he would later adapt to shire and etc
VardaValar1: He was in WW 1, a time when horses were commonly used. As well as in WW 2.
ArPharazonV: oh, right, cavalry was still used in that time, right?
ArPharazonV: before the whole jeep/tank thing really caught on
VardaValar1: Aye, cavalry was in WW 1.
VardaValar1: My grandpa used to tell stories, as a WW 1 cavalry scout. : )
Elwing V: groups now would have them mostly for parade usage or "historical reenactment" I guess
VardaValar1: And the Salt Grass Trail Ride. : )
VardaValar1: That's kind of a parade though, aye.
VardaValar1: Horses are still used to handle cattle.
VardaValar1: Rodeos too.
Elwing V: still good for crowd control if that gets to be a problem
VardaValar1: Aye, police use them. Find the public is friendlier if on horseback.
VardaValar1: It's been about an hour. Would you folks like to return to other activities now? Always great to see you.
ArPharazonV: it's still quite early for me
Elwing V: horses generally considered a "noble" beast - some places
(Arabia for ex) used to (maybe still do) consider them as part of
family ... literally
ArPharazonV: but I'm just not very knowledgeable on horsies :-)
VardaValar1: You know your Tolkien, and you know some of the horses in his works.
VardaValar1: Shadowfax, Roheryn, Strider, Fatty Lumpkin...
VardaValar1: Anyone think of some more? Nice to hear other voices.
Elwing V: Ok, Strider may get a little "beastly" now and again, but he's not a horse! :-)
Elwing V: works like one maybe :-)
VardaValar1: hehe - Frodo named his pony Strider in Aragorn's honor.
Elwing V: hmmm...honor for the pony :-)
VardaValar1: Also to show fondness for his Ranger friend.
Elwing V: "I'll think of you, Aragorn, when he carries me thru marshes and bogs and ... " hee
VardaValar1: Swishtail, Bumpkin, Wise-nose belonging to Merry and renamed by Bombadil.
VardaValar1: Ok, I'm going to turn you guys loose into After-meeting. : )
VardaValar1: Free chat. Toast marshmallows. All that kind of fun. : )
thesirg3 has left the room.
VardaValar1: Folks might get together for some gaming now. : )
VardaValar1: I'll be heading back to LotRO probably.
ArPharazonV: I'll stick around for a bit, in case anyone shows up, and save/send when I go to bed
ArPharazonV: in case I screw up before then, I hope you've got everything so far, Varda :-)
VardaValar1: Thanks. Elwing and I got going on side chat. : )
ArPharazonV: or well, I could just save now
VardaValar1: I do, thanks.
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Glorfindel. Welcome to After-meeting.
ArPharazonV: wow, that's the first time in a long time I check my watch for the date and I *don't* have to think a day back
ArPharazonV: it's not even midnight yet :-)
Glorfindel VG: after meeting already huh
VardaValar1: Aye, time changed to an hour earlier and we didn't have a
lot of business. Tolkien's horse knowledge was the subject but didn't
take off too well.
Glorfindel VG: aw poor horses
VardaValar1: Did you have any comments? Maybe on Asfaloth? : )
VardaValar1: Bell jingling harness intended to lure in Black Riders maybe?
Glorfindel VG: hehe unfortunately no
Glorfindel VG: lure in black riders ey
VardaValar1: Elves usually went bareback. What was with all the fancy harness, and bells?
VardaValar1: Must have been a sneaky lure. Maybe trying to get Aragorn to notice him. : )
Glorfindel VG: so friends could hear perhaps as they did
Glorfindel VG: and forsight that a hobbit may need to right him
Glorfindel VG: hehe
VardaValar1: Lure the nazguls with bells and Frodo right into the Bruinen! Let Elrond raise the river with his air ring (also strange).
ArPharazonV: pff, it can be done with air...
VardaValar1: It was indeed. : ) How do you figure he did it?
ArPharazonV: whip up a good wind, maybe remove air pressure above the water so it fills up the space above
ArPharazonV: put in some air pockets below
ArPharazonV: all about getting water to move by changing its direct environment
ArPharazonV: in all, it was probably wind-related
VardaValar1: That would give some great waves as it mentioned too. The
ones the horses and riders appeared to be in due to Gandalf's illusion.
Glorfindel VG: gandalf helped too
Glorfindel VG: maybe galadriel could raise the anduin and silverlode if she needed :o
VardaValar1: Seems likely!
VardaValar1: Just makes those marchwardens keep busy.
VardaValar1: We don't get to see much of what Galadriel did. That is a real possibility.
Glorfindel VG: would be a great defense
VardaValar1: Ok, I'm off. Have a great rest of the day!
Eonwe Valar: Take care
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Elwing V: the elf rings
corresponded to fire, air and water, didn't they? were there really
only 3 "elf lords" when they were made, or was earth (element) not
considered so important?
ArPharazonV: earth was mainly the domain of Aule, I think, the
Dwarves.. the Elves probably didn't feel they had much to do with it
Elwing V: trees I would think would be related to earth element over the others tho
Elwing V: they did love those
ArPharazonV: trees... life... more a combination of elements than tied to any one, I think
Elwing V: that's just assuming they actually had influence over the
element - maybe they were just called ring of "air" etc because the
jewel in them looked like aspect of that element...
ArPharazonV: trees rose into the air, for example, and need water to survive
Elwing V: fire would be red, maybe amber; air would be clear or white (cloudy); water probably blue
ArPharazonV: the ring of fire was meant to arouse the fire in men's hearts, or something like that
Eonwe Valar: Celebrimbor only made 3 rings by himself, and their intent was for healing and preservation.
ArPharazonV: and... he figured... earth didn't need to be healed and preserved?
Elwing V: if they hadn't been under Sauron's influence, what if
anything, would the rings to Dwarves and Men do? just look pretty, or
also some form of magic?
ArPharazonV: it would give them the strength to rule their people and boost their nations, I think
Eonwe Valar: All of the Rings of Power were originally Elven Rings. I
don't believe any were intended for other races by the Elves.
Eonwe Valar: That's part of what made them dangerous to mortals.
ArPharazonV: many of the riches of the Dwarves were founded on their
Rings, I'm not sure that was solely due to Sauron's influence
Eonwe Valar: Perhaps the "earth" was taken care of in the lesser rings.
ArPharazonV: to be honest, when I first read about the Arkenstone, I
considered the option of the Dwarves having uncovered a silmaril...
ArPharazonV: so who am I to talk about Dwarven riches..
Elwing V: the dwarf ones were the only ones that ended "lost" I think - we know what happened to the ones for Men and Elves
Elwing V: sort of...what happened to the rings of the Ringwraiths after they were defeated?
ArPharazonV: do we? what happened to the Rings of Men after the fall of Sauron?
ArPharazonV: I'm still convinced that Sauron himself held the Rings of the Ringwraiths in his possession, based on some texts
Eonwe Valar: Aye, the only ones that survived into the Third Age. The
Silmarillion implies that there were many more of the lesser rings than
we hear about in the poem, and Gandalf implies this somewhat as well.
ArPharazonV: so when his tower collapsed, they would have been lost somewhere in there
Elwing V: I have the impression that the Ringwraiths dissolved or poofed out of existence or something after Sauron went AAUUGH
ArPharazonV: aye, probably, but that might just have had to do with the power of the One
Elwing V: so did the rings fall off and were just junk after that or did they "unmake" also?
Eonwe Valar: After the One was destroyed, the Nazgul rings would've been useless anyway.
Fladrifv: Aiya!,sorry was a little delayed...
Eonwe Valar: If the three Great Rings were useless after Sauron's fall, any others would've lost their potency as well.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Fladrif.
Eonwe Valar: We're in Aftermeeting now.
ArPharazonV: though a Tolkien-topic :-)
Fladrifv: sigh.. slightly delayed :-)
Elwing V: still seems a shame on the Elf rings...if they were able to
sneak around his influence in the first place (they did use them, if
subtlely) seems they could have continued to get some good out of them
Eonwe Valar: They didn't use them while Sauron held the One Ring.
Eonwe Valar: Had Sauron got his Ring back, at best they would've had to stop using theirs again.
Eonwe Valar: At worst, everything they'd sought to perserve with their rings would be unmade.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, the worst case would've happened anyway, sicne
after getting his ring back, Sauron would've overrun Middle-Earth.
Eonwe Valar: *sicne = since
Elwing V: Sail those ships!!
ArPharazonV: what if they'd sent the One Ring over the sea, would they have been able to use the Elven Rings?
Eonwe Valar: It would've done no good. The Valar would've refused entry.
Eonwe Valar: Those trying to take it to Aman, would've ended up sailing
around the world, which would've prolonged the inevitable.
Elwing V: maybe could have gotten a little Valar assistance to get the thing to Mt Doom that way at least :p
Eonwe Valar: Sauron had all the time he needed. It was the Free Peoples who were pressed for time.
Eonwe Valar: That's what Gandalf was there for :}
Eonwe Valar: The Istari, or Wizards, were all the assitance the Valar were going to give.
Eonwe Valar: *assistance
Elwing V: ok a point in Valar favor for sending him back new and improved :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: still, what if they *had* been able to send the Ring away,
for some reason, or keep it safe for a short time in any other way
ArPharazonV: would they have been able to use their 3 in the meantime?
ArPharazonV: well, for anything bigger than raising a river?
Elwing V: Sauron was still getting strength and having orcs and such make big messes of the world
Eonwe Valar: Since the power of the Three were in healing and preservation, they would've been useless as weapons of war.
Elwing V: it might have been worse if the good guys had had to spend
even more time fighting the minions before they could face the main bad
Eonwe Valar: Even assuming that the flood could be made larger and more
dangerous somehow using the ring, Elrond couldn't hope to fight forever.
Eonwe Valar: Sauron had been actively waging war on Arnor and Gondor
for a couple thousand years, to the point that Arnor was mostly a
wilderness and Gondor couldn't hope to stand before Sauron's full might.
Eonwe Valar: Gondor didn't even have the manpower to hold all of its
lands, which is why it gave Calenardhon to the Rohirrim in the first
Eonwe Valar: All of Middle-Earth would've eventually fallen to Sauron,
because with the Ring in existence, he had all the time he needed.
ArPharazonV: true, true
Glorfindel VG has left the room.
Elwing V: Would he have taken more physical a form
if he had gotten the ring back? That would seem to make him more
vulnerable (like the first time when his hand was whacked off).
Eonwe Valar: Apparently, he had already taken a physical form again, since Gollum could see his hand was missing a finger.
Eonwe Valar: (The finger cut off by Isildur to remove the One Ring at the end of the Second Age.)
ArPharazonV: in any case, he would have been less vulnerable in
physical form *with* ring, than without it and it headed straight to
Eonwe Valar: You are correct, sir :}
Elwing V: I'm so used to the reference of "the eye" that I don't think
of him having more to his form than that - maybe he switched back and
forth; I suppose he could do such a thing
ArPharazonV: it's interesting though, that even while changing back and
forth he would still hold scars and wounds like a missing finger
Elwing V: It is getting close to our dining time - my brother's Bday
eat out tonight : ) so I must adjourn this interesting
discussion...happy chatting and all!
Eonwe Valar: Take care Elwing :}
Eonwe Valar: Happy birthday to your brotehr :}
Elwing V: Namarie :}
Eonwe Valar: brother even
Elwing V has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: I think the Eye was more a result of him using the Palantir.
Eonwe Valar: When Denethor used the Palantir, there were "strnage
lights" in the tower at Minas Tirith. WOuld make sense for something
similar with Sauron using the Palantir he had.
ArPharazonV: still, and this might just be the movie, but didn't Frodo see the eye without ever looking into the Palantir?
ArPharazonV: like at Amon Hen, or in Galadiel's mirror?
Eonwe Valar: Fair enough.
Eonwe Valar: My point was more that it was not a physical form assumed
by him, but more of a... hmm, can't find the right word...
Eonwe Valar: But aye, as I recall now, the Eye was seen by Galadriel, Frodo, and possibly by anyone wearing a Ring of Power.
Eonwe Valar: Galadriel makes a comment that it cannot yet see inside Lothlorien, somethign like that.
Eonwe Valar: She says she knows what Frodo sees because she also sees it in her mind.
ArPharazonV: ok, so.... I'm off
Eonwe Valar: Take care Phar
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well.
ArPharazonV: saving and sending