Valar Guild

March 2, 2008 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe, and Varda

Attending: (8)
    AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Fladrifv, Gelmir-(V)/Shaggyjoe, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet, Olwe-(V)/FallenGlory, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
How loyal was Sauron to Morgoth?

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Fladrifv: :P
ArPharazonV: Aiya Flad
Fladrifv: hoi mike
ArPharazonV: this is going on the transcript, since I always save from beginning
ArPharazonV: so English would be recommended :-)
Fladrifv: whell at last they will learn dutch then after all ;-)
ArPharazonV: haha
ArPharazonV: any idea when daylight saving starts?
Fladrifv: again?
ArPharazonV: or ends... or whatever
Fladrifv: didnt we have that isue just a while ago?
ArPharazonV: isn't that somewhere in March?
ArPharazonV: oh...
Fladrifv: yieks time flies!
ArPharazonV: oh, look at this,
ArPharazonV: march 30
Fladrifv: but not for america
Fladrifv: they will be at 9th of march
ArPharazonV: true, true
ArPharazonV: oh, hang on a minute, does that mean the meeting will start at a different time from next week onwards?
ArPharazonV: Americans turn the clock an hour forwards, so it's a specific time an hour earlier, right?
ArPharazonV: so logically, the meeting would start, for us, an hour earlier?
Fladrifv: aye
Fladrifv: brb
Fladrifv has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
FallenGlory has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Shaggyjoe has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: heya Gelmir
Shaggyjoe: Good Afternoon, folks.
Fladrifv has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: I'll be chairing the meeting today. Varda and family are out to a movie. Let's give it a couple more minutes to see if anyone else comes in.
Fladrifv: Aiyata
Eonwe Valar: Heya Fladrif
ArPharazonV: Aiyata Flad :-)
Eonwe Valar: If you see anyguild members on and not in here, please send an invite.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's get this rolling.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Members:
Eonwe Valar: As mentioned already, Varda and family are out to see "Jumpers."
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
Shaggyjoe: I'm trying to get accepted as an adult transfer student into Kennesaw State University.
Shaggyjoe: Here's to hoping that it goes well. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Good luck, Gel, but I'm sure you'll do fine getting in :}
Eonwe Valar: Do you have a major planned yet?
Shaggyjoe: Computer Information Security Specialist
Shaggyjoe: Bachelors.
Eonwe Valar: Cool
Shaggyjoe: I think it's a cool sounding major title lol
Eonwe Valar: I'm trying to go after the security certification at my university as well.
Shaggyjoe: Right on, strong field to get into.
Shaggyjoe: Outlook is extremely high over the next 5 to 10 years.
Shaggyjoe: need that is.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
Eonwe Valar: Ok, onwards.

Eonwe Valar: Web:
Eonwe Valar: Nothing new at this time, but I'm sure Varda's still working on getting some stories etc up for the Stories page and the Encyclopedia.
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Nothing new concerning the Games Page at this time.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Gilraen.
Star of Phaet: Aiya :-)

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: LotRO
Eonwe Valar: Ancalagons been organizing trophy runs for the kinship house. It began this Friday with a trip into Carn Dum.
Eonwe Valar: Those going with him were Amroth, Beleg, Morwë, Oromë, Ulmo, and Varda
Eonwe Valar: They also went in Saturday.
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Lothar: Afraid I was to busy with real life, as is usual this semester, to get a chance to go in at the standard time, but coming in later I saw that there were a few who made it in.
Eonwe Valar: No report from Uldaman, but Elwing's told me she's been working on her Horde character there.
Eonwe Valar: Do we have anything from Argent Dawn?
ArPharazonV: hmm, no, don't think so, can't recall
ArPharazonV: don't think I've done much of significance in the last week, anyway, not sure about Arien...
Eonwe Valar: Ok, Thanks Phar.
Shaggyjoe: I still play on Andorhal
Eonwe Valar: Any other business?
Shaggyjoe: On occasion with RL friends, we have a 39 twink guild that has ~30 members and we frequently get on just to go to the BG and have some fun if anyone is interested they can contact me for more information.
Shaggyjoe: We arena with our 70's too and run heroics but are not raiding.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Shaggyjoe: I scared him off. ><
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiyata :-)
Shaggyjoe: welcome back.
Eonwe Valar: Bah, got booted.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks
Eonwe Valar: Did I miss anything after saying "Any other business?"
Shaggyjoe: Yeah
Eonwe Valar: Please repeat.
Shaggyjoe: I was just saying that I play on Andorhal with some RL friends, we have a 39 twink guild with ~30 members. We are very active in the BG's it's great fun that doesn't require too much work to obtain.
Shaggyjoe: We also arena and run heroics with our 70's on occasion but don't raid. If anyone wants to come join us we are all very friendly and open to anyone who wants to play with skilled players.
Shaggyjoe: Thought I'd toss that out there. :-)
Eonwe Valar: We do still have an official branch on Lothar. I would've kinda liked to unite our Guild members there, but that doesn't seem to be working out too well.
Shaggyjoe: Yeah, I would have stayed with yall but it's pve!
Shaggyjoe: and alliance. icky
Shaggyjoe: I still have Gelmir there though.
Eonwe Valar: We have a Horde server: Uldaman. Not many are on it at a time, but it's there.
Shaggyjoe: ah okay.
Eonwe Valar: Amusing it was asked for and then not much used, heh.
Shaggyjoe: need those numbers to make it stick.
Shaggyjoe: I know what it's like to see something get started and then, abruptly die. :\ quite sad.
Eonwe Valar: As for the PvE, I can't really help there but to say that not everyone wants to play in a place with the risk or getting ganked at any second, heh
Shaggyjoe: it's not as bad as people play it out to be.
Shaggyjoe: It's quite fun questing along side alliance in peace.
ArPharazonV: maybe alliance don't gank as much as horde ;-)
Shaggyjoe: If you avoid the known "gank" area's you can do just fine.
Shaggyjoe: Ha!
Eonwe Valar: That's the problem, one has to miss an entire part of the world to not have the experience ruined.
Shaggyjoe: Tarren Mill is the only bad area.
Eonwe Valar: We used to have huge Tarren Mill battles back in the day that lagged the area, so fun can be had on normal servers in that respect as well.
Eonwe Valar: Just not as fun since the changes to ruin town raiding, heh.
Shaggyjoe: Been playing for years though, I can honestly say that most of wow at the point is redundant, at least to me, and the only non-static part of it has become the PvP.
Eonwe Valar: I'm not really much into PvP in WoW anyway. I think fighting games do a better job for that and are more based on skill than gear. So, I would be one of those people not interested in levelling on a PvP server :}
Shaggyjoe: So I'm jaded :-)
Shaggyjoe: Yeah no kidding.
Shaggyjoe: Gear is the limiting factor and also the biggest factor in success. It's the truth.
Eonwe Valar: I say that as someone who has tried PvP, by the way. I'm not discounting it out of hand.
Shaggyjoe: Indeed not, I understand your points entirely and agree.
Shaggyjoe: I'm just stuck on it. lol
Shaggyjoe: Besides being a 39 twink lock is broken.
Eonwe Valar: It's fun sometimes for what it is, but it is mostly gear-based, not skill-based.
Shaggyjoe: Yeah.
Shaggyjoe: I'm waiting patiently for SC2!
Eonwe Valar: The possible exception being Arena, in which players are supposed to fight other players of approximately equal level.
Eonwe Valar: SC2 will be great :}
ArPharazonV: they should give you 1 xp point for every horde you kill or every bg you win
Shaggyjoe: You better bet I'll be spear heading Valar's branch if the position is avail.
ArPharazonV: that should kill the twink business outright
Shaggyjoe: Arena is just as bad to be honest.
Shaggyjoe: My rogue is sitting at 345 resil atm, with S1-S3 gear and the rest PvP and I'm still behind the curve.
Shaggyjoe: Reason I quit the first time. :\
Shaggyjoe: The game IS gear.
Shaggyjoe: Time = Gear
Shaggyjoe: Time = sucess
Shaggyjoe: it's sad. :-(
Shaggyjoe: People with lives can't really devote the time needed to be on the top of the curve.
Eonwe Valar: Well, it's the standard MMO model, which is only in recent years starting to change.
Shaggyjoe: True.
Shaggyjoe: I need to restart my rig real quick, my mouse cursor is frozen and I can't see where it is half the time. Really annoying. Can I get a reinvite when I get back on?
Eonwe Valar: There's much potential in the MMO category though.
Eonwe Valar: Sure.
ArPharazonV: well, there's the problem with pvp in general
Fladrifv has left the room.
Fladrifv has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: player vs player competition
Shaggyjoe: Oh I can't miss this.
ArPharazonV: if you're not on top of the curve, it's useless
Shaggyjoe: NOT useless just hard.
Fladrifv: its useless any way
Shaggyjoe: I was on TOP of the curve in arena in S1.
ArPharazonV: well, still
Shaggyjoe: It's not impossible to get back up but it's very difficult.
Shaggyjoe: last season I was almost back to a 2k 2v2 rating.
ArPharazonV: there's little room *at* the top, and everyone's ambition to get there
ArPharazonV: at least pve you can do side by side
Shaggyjoe: Ah.
Shaggyjoe: Well to be honest the TOP is occupied by Raiding Guilds Arena teams that trade off wins and losses to "inflate" their points.
Shaggyjoe: at least last season was that way.
Shaggyjoe: Make the system work for you is their motto.
ArPharazonV: my point is more general... you have to stay at or near the top to enjoy pvp the most
ArPharazonV: for pve, that's not necessary
Shaggyjoe: Not if you twink :-)
ArPharazonV: therefore, more people can enjoy it
Shaggyjoe: the 39 bracket is really quite fun :0
Eonwe Valar: I enjoy Battlegrounds. They have less stringent gear requirements, heh.
Shaggyjoe: Ah yes, but honestly how many times can you run uldaman before you get tired of killing scripted encounters with troggs?
Eonwe Valar: Depends on how many friends I'm running it with, heh.
Shaggyjoe: Point.
Eonwe Valar: I don't mind going back into an instance with rfriends, not so interesting by myself.
Eonwe Valar: You know, I bet we have enough Guild members spread across the US servers to at least run Karazhan if they were all 70... Going to have to find that out in the GP Mass Update this summer...
Eonwe Valar: Sorry, thinking aloud.
Shaggyjoe: Not a bad idea
Shaggyjoe: Heh I'm soooo sick of kara though lol
Shaggyjoe: I do need the Badges for my dagger though.
Shaggyjoe: like 103?
Eonwe Valar: I did like the fact that they are making all PTRs available to all players though. It portends well for our Erupoean plays being able to join us on Lothar.
Shaggyjoe: thats only 5 runs
Shaggyjoe: Oh..
Shaggyjoe: Thats cool
Eonwe Valar: *European. and eventually
Shaggyjoe: too bad it's not static.
ArPharazonV: just a matter of timezones, really
Shaggyjoe: Would it be that hard to link all the servers together and just let groups form cross server and then have their own instances?
ArPharazonV: by the time the Americans want to raid, the Europeans will be sleeping
Shaggyjoe: Or waking up
Eonwe Valar: Well, we'd have to run through normal instances and then Heroics first quite likely, so by the time we got to Karazhan you should be ready for it again :}
Shaggyjoe: ><
Shaggyjoe: I have nightmares about getting people keyed.
Eonwe Valar: We did for a while have US members who came in during the day, able to game with the European members, but you make a good point.
Shaggyjoe: lol
Shaggyjoe: okay going to restart so I can do my application
Shaggyjoe: brb
ArPharazonV: most people in Europe tend to do most of their raiding in the evening, mildly put
Eonwe Valar: Elatan was on Lothar for a while, unfortunately I guess he didn't see enough of those that were able to be on during the day.
ArPharazonV: I assume the same goes for the US
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Eonwe Valar: It was at least worth hoping, anyway, that we could have the chance of gaming together.
ArPharazonV: gaming, sure
ArPharazonV: raiding, probably not
Eonwe Valar: Like we used to be able to do in D2, able to trade items back and forth and such.
ArPharazonV: hah... funny you should say that
Eonwe Valar: Help eachother out if we happen to be on at the same time.
ArPharazonV: today was mail-day with me and my alts... I always tend to send a lot of gear and patterns and stuff to my alts, and once a month it all gets automatically returned and I have to resend it all over again
Eonwe Valar: hehe
AriehnV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: so I spent half an hour sending gear, patterns, gems, reagents, etc... to 9 different alts
Eonwe Valar: Hehe
AriehnV: aiya all
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Well, we should probably be getting to Tolkien chat :}
ArPharazonV: speaking of gems, and once a month
ArPharazonV: March was a good month for me with my Consortium-gem reward, which I picked up today
Shaggyjoe has left the room.
ArPharazonV: 2 greens and 4 blues!
AriehnV: ooh hehe dont let me stop you ^^, just returned from a useless hunt in winterspring
Eonwe Valar: Congrats
ArPharazonV: Arien, do you have any AD report?
ArPharazonV: I couldn't remember if we did anything...
Eonwe Valar: We've just been talking a long time about WoW.
AriehnV: i see
AriehnV: no i am afraid not .. nothing valar related , ... some solo activity on the hunter and the druid who is in valar shadow .. both successfully growing in strength
Eonwe Valar: Valar shadow?
AriehnV: Pharazons High guard :-)
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: OK, gotcha.
AriehnV: been tanking with a guild mate , a healer in a couple of instances
AriehnV: was fun but that was it :-)
Eonwe Valar: Ok, thanks Arien.

Eonwe Valar: Now, for the real question: Got a Tolkien topic? :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, then you get mine.
Eonwe Valar: Ok everyone, wake up and prepare for Tolkien :}
AriehnV: books at the ready
Eonwe Valar: *Opens window and lets sun shine in*
Eonwe Valar: How loyal was Sauron to Morgoth?
AriehnV: hard to tell with the likes of him ... they were as ready to betray each other as themselves
Eonwe Valar: The Silmarillion says that Sauron "was only less evil that his master in that for a long time he served another and not himself..."
AriehnV: obedience probably much more due to fear than gratefulness
Eonwe Valar: Then again it also says that Sauron had a part in all of Morgoth's evil.
Eonwe Valar: (Referring to the Valaquenta for those interested)
AriehnV: i guess Morgoth used him as his main tool
AriehnV: ambassador and also acting ruler for him
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: The quote I give seems to suggest that at some point he stopped "serving another." Thoughts?
Eonwe Valar: *gave
ArPharazonV: maybe, as Morgoth was banished, Sauron continued his works, but no longer actually in his service, but more because it suited him
ArPharazonV: employing the reference to Morgoth in advising Pharazon, for example, might have been more a useful tool than a sign of obedience
ArPharazonV: as Sauron himself grew more alike to Morgoth in power and ideas, he may not have needed Morgoth's mastery anymore
Eonwe Valar: I doubt he greww in power alike to Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: *grew
AriehnV: in how far? Both were looking for mastery and destruction , not referaining from torture and slavery
ArPharazonV: well, obviously not that close in power as Morgoth once had, but he did grow in power, and thus become more like Morgoth
ArPharazonV: *became
ArPharazonV: the armies he employed personally would grow from the first age to the third age, until he had armies of many thousands
AriehnV: maybe Morgoth was even more extreme in his ways .. and he destroyed or tried to destroyed befeore the other Ainu were finished creating their works
AriehnV: Sauron kept his servants alive and allowed them to grow their food .. some preservation was needed
Eonwe Valar: Aye, there were even farmlands in the heart of Mordor, around the inland sea of Nurnen.
AriehnV: he used dead and undead .. but not merely
ArPharazonV: Morgoth used dragons and orcs, and used them in war with the Exiles for 600 years
ArPharazonV: I'm sure he had some way of keeping them alive
ArPharazonV: besides man-flesh...
AriehnV: aye *shudders* .. we know that they used bread
AriehnV: and animals of some sort .. even if they were likely to be slimy bah
Eonwe Valar: Probably not a whole lot of place to grow food way up North with all the bitter cold he'd created up there.
Eonwe Valar: he being Morgoth in this case.
ArPharazonV: we don't know much about the North at all
ArPharazonV: for all we know they could have been eating polar bears and seals and orcas and walrusses
AriehnV: fish maybe they used too i guess , bears and wolves too .. they are hardy creatures who can survive low temperatures
ArPharazonV: orcs eating orcas... ehrm... scratch that
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth's servants seemed to have a problem with the open seas. That's why in the First Age everyone fled to the Havens.
ArPharazonV: true
Eonwe Valar: *with the seas period.
ArPharazonV: but still, my point stands... they had to eat, right?
ArPharazonV: no matter what it was they did eat?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
AriehnV: true .. the sea was ruled and mastered by Ulmo one of his main foe
AriehnV: *foes
Eonwe Valar: Food probably came from the lastd he held in Beleriand and on the other side of the BLue Mountains.
Eonwe Valar: *lastd = lands
AriehnV: aye from the people he had enslaved their
AriehnV: tribute
AriehnV: slavery ... destruction .. torture .... high triutes (some call it overtaxcation) - cruelty in general - a tendency to destroy rather than preserve ... the use of negative emotions
Eonwe Valar: They both pretty well walked the same path.
AriehnV: not to mention murder ... war .. treachery and lies
AriehnV: thinking there of gollum and how he was drawn to Mordor
AriehnV: i think it is Gandalf or Aragorn .. i am not sure who said *all evil creatures are drawn there*
AriehnV: --------------> mordor
Eonwe Valar: Sounds like it was from "A Shadow of the Past" When Gandalf is talking to Frodo.
Eonwe Valar: Shall we call it here, or does anyone have more to add?
AriehnV: i think you are right :-) .. i guess in the end it does not matter who is more evil than the other ... both Morgoth and Sauron were darkness it self
AriehnV: it cannot coexist with light
Eonwe Valar: Hehe
ArPharazonV: so would Sauron have needed to serve Morgoth in the end, or would his own agenda be enough to continue Morgoth's work?
Eonwe Valar: In the end, all evil serves Morgoth's designs.
Eonwe Valar: I suppose the question could be asked, "How actively is Sauron working to get Morgoth back into the world."
ArPharazonV: true
Eonwe Valar: But that wouldn't necessarily reflect anything either, if he knew Morgoth was going to be able to get back anyway.
Eonwe Valar: In which case, his main goal would be to bring the world under dominion in preparation for Morgoth's return.
ArPharazonV: well, I wonder what he wanted to accomplish with Numenor... he was doing a good job corrupting them, he could have used them for his own ends to control the world, eventually giving Melkor a chance to return perhaps
ArPharazonV: instead, he sent Pharazon against the Valar, thereby getting revenge against both Numenor and the Valar, but not weakening the Valar in any way and sacrificing what could have been a good way to bring Melkor back
ArPharazonV: well, Morgoth, Melkor... whatever
ArPharazonV: so in that way one could say he served his own ends rather than his master's
Eonwe Valar: I think his primary goal with Numenor was to destroy Numenor as a power base, and to "cause emotional damage" to the Valar, for a lack of better way to put it.
Eonwe Valar: Hurt the Valar because they have to respond to the Numenorean invasion, to put it simply.
AriehnV: acting out of his own desire for revenge
ArPharazonV: which he did, of course, and he succeeded in that
ArPharazonV: but it brought him no closer to releasing Morgoth back in the world
AriehnV: nah chucked himself into nothingness for a long time
AriehnV: ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth didn't like the Edain either, and the Edain were the forefathers of the Dunedain.
ArPharazonV: harvesting and completely subducing the Numenoreans to his own control could have been a lot smarter, who knows, after a couple of millenia they might have been capable of greater damage in Valinor
ArPharazonV: which, if sufficient enough, might be enough to let Morgoth back
Eonwe Valar: Perhaps.
AriehnV: that is because of the struggle and influence of the other valar in Aman and their loyals
Eonwe Valar: The only way to get Morgoth back would be to assault the Doors of Night.
AriehnV: their actors in Middlearth and Numenor .. there always were some Faithful around#
ArPharazonV: so while he destroyed Numenor, and hurt the Valar, he already had Numenor in his palm at that time... I believe he could have done much greater damage even, especially to the realm of the Valar
ArPharazonV: and would assaulting the Doors of Night not be a lot easier if the Valar or the Valar's watch on the Doors were weakened?
Eonwe Valar: The Valar knew what was going on in Numenor, apparently.
ArPharazonV: IMO, Sauron's goal, if he wanted to bring back his master, would be mastery of the West, or at least more influence, to reach the doors of night
Eonwe Valar: I don't think their watch would've waned, and it would've taken a long long time to get the proud Numenoreans into the fold serving with a bunch of orcs.
ArPharazonV: and for that, the Numenoreans would have been a very nice tool if he hadn't thrown them at Valinor almost immediately
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
AriehnV: he never thought to keep a puppet loyalty to the Valar for the public to see
AriehnV: or even tried to deceive the Valar .. he pulled them to his side straight away .. far from the path the valar had shown
ArPharazonV: IMO, he was impatient and too eager for his own revenge... as an unaging being, surely he could have waited
Eonwe Valar: I think as far as he was concerned, the Valar retreated back into Aman, and he saw what it took to get them to come out.
ArPharazonV: and in that way failed to put his master's best interests over his own
Eonwe Valar: It says in the Akallabeth that even he wasn't expecting what happend to Numenor.
Eonwe Valar: So maybe he did have long-range plans for the Numenoreans, but was trying to get rid of Pharazon to create a power vacuum into which he could step.
Eonwe Valar: Since he was already Pharazon's chief advisor, it wouldn't take much effort to step into therole of Numenor's King, by whatever title he decided to use.
ArPharazonV: it says his goals were the defeat of Pharazon and the death of the Numenoreans... exactly as to what Numenoreans are referred, but if it wasn't just Pharazon's fleet, and Elendil on the east coast preparing to leave, he could have i
AriehnV: and shot sonewhat toof far ^^
ArPharazonV: indeed a larger purpose
ArPharazonV: but if he referred to *all* Numenoreans, his purpose was surely to see them dead
ArPharazonV: the manner in which it happened surprised him, though
Eonwe Valar: He saw no problems using the Black Numenoreans for his own purposes in later years.
Eonwe Valar: Or even before that, since some Nazgul came from that group.
ArPharazonV: no, he didn't, but they were too few in number to have as much of an effect as the entire Numenorean nation could have had under his control
ArPharazonV: so it is possible that he had a longer goal, for which in the end only the Black Numenoreans remained... and that he just intended to be rid of Pharazon
ArPharazonV: but Pharazon was approaching old age and death anyway, and had no descendants
ArPharazonV: (at least, children are never mentioned)
ArPharazonV: so wouldn't that have been a sufficient power vacuum?
Eonwe Valar: Hmm
ArPharazonV: he could just have waited, bided his time, stepped in after Pharazon's death of age
ArPharazonV: instead of risking, and losing, the entire kingdom
Eonwe Valar: Maybe the shock of a "natural" death wouldn't have been enough?
Eonwe Valar: You make a good point.
Eonwe Valar: There were still people who could've stepped in at the time. Tar-Miriel was still a Ruling Queen, even if power was usurped by Pharazon.
AriehnV: sauron also didnt see his own limits .. maybe he thought his efforts were enough .. just didnt recknon with those who stayed loyal to Eru
AriehnV: he was blind in his pride
Eonwe Valar: She was still alive, so if Pharazon died before she did, she could've regained some control.
ArPharazonV: Tar-Miriel wasn't with Pharazon... if Pharazon and his fleet would have perished, but Numenor remained, as to his apparent purpose
ArPharazonV: she still could have stepped in
AriehnV: well she didnt really accept him, did she
ArPharazonV: in fact, the Valar's power would have become more apparent to the Numenoreans, who might shift back into the Faithful side a bit
AriehnV: so would he have listened?
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, wasn't Sauron left as Regent when Pharazon set sail?
ArPharazonV: so by all means, if Sauron had longer-term-goals for Numenor, I don't think the assault on Valinor would have been beneficial to those goals no matter what the outcome was
ArPharazonV: unless Pharazon actually *won*, but Sauron could not have been expecting that
ArPharazonV: so I can only conclude that he was either rash and impatient... or he served his own ends instead of working on his master's return
ArPharazonV: and the latter seems a bit more likely to me
AriehnV: so in that case he wouldnt have served his master .. that is another - coming back to the intiial quote - which would put him on the same level of evil with Morgoth
AriehnV: not *less evil than his master*
ArPharazonV: he was less evil than his master because he served another *for a while*
ArPharazonV: that while could have been over by the end of the Second Age
ArPharazonV: or "for a long time" I think the quote was, sorry
Eonwe Valar: "for long he served another"
ArPharazonV: right, that
Eonwe Valar: I don't think Morgoth would've been too displeased by Sauron's decision though.
ArPharazonV: of course, by the end of the Third Age, Sauron became even more like his master in evil
Eonwe Valar: Corrupting men is a bit dangerous anyway. There's always that small chance they might do something to redeem themselves, heh.
ArPharazonV: forgoing sublety for force, darkness for beauty
ArPharazonV: ehrr the othe rway, sorry
ArPharazonV: forsaking sublety for force, beauty for darkness
Eonwe Valar: After Sauron's fair form was destroyed, he could no longer take on a form other than one of darkness.
ArPharazonV: the same was in a way true of Morgoth, he too got stuck in a dark form after pouring too much of his power away
ArPharazonV: in fact, by the time he met Ungoliant, I think he was already stuck in one form?
Eonwe Valar: Whether he could've shed his form or not isquestionable, but by choice he had become attached to it.
ArPharazonV: true, true... Sauron lost his good form involuntary
ArPharazonV: still, he too got stuck in a form he could not get out of, in a way.. and maybe he grew into it, as did his policies and his goals
ArPharazonV: and in the end he too left sublety and merely sought to bring his foes down by force
Eonwe Valar: I guess there's just something appealling about sitting on a dark throne rather than being trapped inside, heh.
Eonwe Valar: And aye
ArPharazonV: maybe the reason Sauron tried to dominate the world rather than destroy it, was because he foresaw he needed minions of some force to fight the Valar, whereas Morgoth could have done a good job without them?
Eonwe Valar: It did not stop him from using subtley and guile through his servants, just personally.
ArPharazonV: true, but in the end it all came down on his military force, unlike as with Numenor, though he may have intended to use force there as well until he saw he could not win that way
Eonwe Valar: Obviously he couldn't or he wouldn't have been so cowardly when the Valar attacked :}
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Sauron intended to decimate the Numenoreans, except none of his army would stand there and fight.
Eonwe Valar: He did send messengers to Erebor to learn of Bilbo though, and tried to tempt them with power and wealth rather than overwhelm them immediately.
Eonwe Valar: The reason Sauron moved so soon during the War of the Ring, actually, was because Aragorn made him move early.
ArPharazonV: how much good would overwhelming them have done, if his goal was to seek out Bilbo?
Eonwe Valar: Before that, Sauron was playing it pretty smartly.
ArPharazonV: Dwarves can't talk when they're dead
ArPharazonV: and as I recall from Thrain, they're remarkably resistant to torture
Eonwe Valar: For the Dwarves? Nothing. Nothing gained from tortuing them. From their humnan neighbors? Probably much more.
ArPharazonV: Dale? perhaps
ArPharazonV: but perhaps he did not think the Men would have had enough relevant information
Eonwe Valar: Sauron was sending them messengers as well, and Dale was worried.
ArPharazonV: true, true.. but maybe he wasn't ready to rely on human information alone, when he could have Dwarven information
Eonwe Valar: Attacking Dale and Erebor would've been playing his hand to soon.
ArPharazonV: and therefore tried to tempt them
ArPharazonV: anyway!
ArPharazonV: as much as I like this subject, obviously because it involves Numenor...
ArPharazonV: I really should be off to bed
Eonwe Valar: Ok Phar.
AriehnV: ah it is very tempting and intriguing to keep talking like this for hours
ArPharazonV: just one more question
ArPharazonV: is daytime saving starting in the US next week?
Eonwe Valar: Good question,...
Eonwe Valar: I'll go check my calendar real quick. brb.
ArPharazonV: if so, I assume the meeting would start (for us) an hour earlier?
Eonwe Valar: March 9th for DST, aye.
Eonwe Valar: Setting clocks ahead, so yeah, think that'd be an hour earlier for you.
ArPharazonV: allright, good to know
ArPharazonV: saving and sending
ArPharazonV: if you continue on the subject with Arien or others, do save it!
AriehnV: ok i have to retreat too :-(
AriehnV: my slave driver cracked just the whip '_
Eonwe Valar: Really, I should turn my attention elsewhere.
ArPharazonV: ok, still, if anything happens, anyone shows up or anything
ArPharazonV: I expect you to save and send, Eonwe :-)
ArPharazonV (6:07:28 PM): saved
(6:07:48 PM) Shaggyjoe has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar (6:07:50 PM): I will :}
Shaggyjoe (6:07:59 PM): Thanks
Eonwe Valar (6:08:02 PM): Hey Gel, just saw you on my buddy list. Hope you haven't been waiting long.
Shaggyjoe (6:08:07 PM): I didn't have any of yall on my new buddy list :<
Shaggyjoe (6:08:12 PM): Hours
Shaggyjoe (6:08:13 PM): You fail
Shaggyjoe (6:08:14 PM): lol
Eonwe Valar (6:08:17 PM): Bah :}
AriehnV (6:08:41 PM): Rest thee all well my friends
Shaggyjoe (6:08:48 PM): And you. :-)
Eonwe Valar (6:08:51 PM): Sleep well Phar and Arien :}
Eonwe Valar (6:08:58 PM): Take care :}
AriehnV (6:08:59 PM): Namarie :-)
Eonwe Valar (6:09:14 PM): Our disucssion, Gel, was on how loyal Sauron was to Morgoth.
(6:09:28 PM) AriehnV has left the room.
(6:09:29 PM) VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1 (6:09:34 PM): Aiya
Eonwe Valar (6:09:37 PM): Heya
Eonwe Valar (6:09:57 PM): Our discussion was on how loyal Sauron was to Morgoth.
ArPharazonV (6:10:19 PM): Aiya Varda
Eonwe Valar (6:10:19 PM): It looks like we're wrapping up unless Gel and Varda have anything to add.
ArPharazonV (6:10:23 PM): just writing up the email :-)
VardaValar1 (6:10:28 PM): How loyal was he?
Eonwe Valar (6:10:32 PM): Aye.
Eonwe Valar (6:10:51 PM): The Silmarillion says he was only less evil than Morgoth in that "for long he served another and not himself."
Eonwe Valar (6:11:06 PM): It at least seems to imply at some point he wasn't serving Morgoth.
ArPharazonV (6:11:39 PM): transcript sent
VardaValar1 (6:11:40 PM): For a time, Morgoth was not around.
Eonwe Valar (6:11:55 PM): Or at least not putting Morgoth's purposes as priority over his own, more like a "well, if it so happens to serve Morgoth, great, but it's more important that it serves my purposes."
Eonwe Valar (6:12:26 PM): Well, he could "serve" Morgoth whether Morgoth is there or not :}
VardaValar1 (6:12:33 PM): He continued what Morgoth started.
ArPharazonV (6:13:07 PM): Namarie all!
ArPharazonV (6:13:17 PM): *points at Eonwe* save!
Eonwe Valar (6:13:28 PM): I will :}
VardaValar1 (6:13:40 PM): hehe
Eonwe Valar (6:13:49 PM): I've got two saves, one for before I got booted out and one after that includes the repost of the one thing I missed :}
VardaValar1 (6:13:51 PM): Probably not adding much more anyway.
ArPharazonV (6:14:06 PM): Still, I want to read it :-)
Eonwe Valar (6:14:09 PM): Gandalf served the Valar without them standing over his shoulder, for example.
ArPharazonV (6:14:10 PM): G'night!
VardaValar1 (6:14:18 PM): Will quilt :-)
VardaValar1 (6:14:23 PM): Good night
Eonwe Valar (6:14:26 PM): Sleep well :}
(6:14:31 PM) ArPharazonV has left the room.
VardaValar1 (6:15:16 PM): Aye, and Sauron was used to working with the other Valar as well, knew how to operate on his own.
Eonwe Valar (6:18:37 PM): I guess there's nothing else to add :}
VardaValar1 (6:19:15 PM): Sorry, Fladrif is showing me neat stuff too.
Eonwe Valar (6:19:28 PM): Our discussion centered around Numenor, and how Sauron could've more wisely utilized them towards serving Morgoth than simply sending them off to be destroyed.
Eonwe Valar (6:19:34 PM): NP.
VardaValar1 (6:19:36 PM): Okies, thanks for handling things while I had to be away!
VardaValar1 (6:20:06 PM): He was also working at driving a wedge between the Free Peoples and the Valar.
Eonwe Valar (6:20:12 PM): NP :} It's in my job description :}
VardaValar1 (6:20:19 PM): Thanks anyway :-)
VardaValar1 (6:20:39 PM): He didn't expect that huge a backlash.
Eonwe Valar (6:20:45 PM): Aye
Eonwe Valar (6:22:44 PM): Well, I need to turn my attention elsewhere, but I'll still stick around in channel.
VardaValar1 (6:22:52 PM): Great to see Olwe here again :-)
Eonwe Valar (6:22:54 PM): *Bangs Gavel*
VardaValar1 (6:23:01 PM): and Gelmir
VardaValar1 (6:23:04 PM): *jumps*
Shaggyjoe (6:23:12 PM): Hello
Shaggyjoe (6:23:20 PM): You enjoy the movie?
Shaggyjoe (6:23:23 PM): I was disapointed
VardaValar1 (6:23:41 PM): Depends on what you were expecting.
Shaggyjoe (6:23:54 PM): right after they introduce the characters and have an interesting Matrix'esq style fight scene, it ends on a note that suggested it is going to be a trilogy.
VardaValar1 (6:23:56 PM): It did have a complete story, but a lot of open-endedness.
VardaValar1 (6:24:18 PM): Could make it into a comic book series, book series, or into more movies.
VardaValar1 (6:25:17 PM): Photography, action quite good. Lots of big scenes, felt like it was best seen as a movie rather than DVD the first time at least.
VardaValar1 (6:25:44 PM): Real life is kind of like that, though. It could end where it did.
Shaggyjoe: aye
Eonwe Valar: Meeting portion sent.
VardaValar1: ok, thank you.
Eonwe Valar: MP.
VardaValar1: See you folks around. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}