Valar Guild

January 27, 2008 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (11)
    Members: Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, AriehnV, ArPharazonV, arwenv1, Eonwe Valar, Fladrifv, Gelmir-(V)/Shaggyjoe, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet, Glorfindel-(V)/VegetableMannn, VardaValar1 (presiding)
    Friend: Srekal86

Meeting begins
    Small comparison of LotRO and WoW crafting
    Discussion on WoW crafting and raiding.
    Gregory Bassham says that after studying Tolkien, he found six important lessons to being happy.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1: Anc! Aiya :-)
Sarujil: hey varda
VardaValar1: Working away at something?
Sarujil: havent seen you in a few days
Sarujil: merry and i are finishing up book 2
VardaValar1: Great!
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: I helped him pass Book 6, ch 6 and go on into Gabilshathur yesterday.
VardaValar1: I haven't been on today though.
VardaValar1: Aiya Phar : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Bilbo's had my LotRO comp and I've been pretty busy with rl.
Sarujil: hey phar
Sarujil: varda i got a new decoration for my house on roheryn. its very interesting, you should check it out :-)
VardaValar1: Sounds intriguing.
VardaValar1: Maybe after the meeting and making supper. The comp may be free then.
Sarujil: going to go eat dinner. should be back in oh about 15
VardaValar1: Merry added more to the Rep info on the Forum. Nice :-)
VardaValar1: Okie dokie. Any suggestions for Tolkien chat?
VardaValar1: You can be thinking about it. ;-)
VardaValar1: Thanks for listing more houses!
VardaValar1: I need to make a quick check on my daughter, brb.
AriehnV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
AriehnV: woops :-) and aiya
Shaggyjoe has entered the room.
VardaValar1: back and heya :-)
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya all.
Star of Phaet: Aiya
arwenv1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Hiya Eonwe, Arien, Gelmir!, Gilraen, and Arwen. :-)
VardaValar1: Gelmir, still playing Eve?
VardaValar1: Menelvagor and Pallando don't seem to have seen you over there.
Shaggyjoe: Hello
Srekal86 has entered the room.
Shaggyjoe: No, I haven't played eve in almost a year I would think, I've been playing Hellgate London, my 39 twink lock on WoW, and Neverwinter Nights two
VardaValar1: Sounds like a lot.
VardaValar1: Hellgate good? I was considering it.
Shaggyjoe: But with school and my band I don't get to play as much as I would like.
Shaggyjoe: Oh it's great.
Shaggyjoe: I don't understand the poor reviews.
Eonwe Valar: I think Pallando said he plays Hellgate:London too, if you're interested, Gel.
VardaValar1: Pallando signed up for the marines, puts a crimp in playing. : )
Shaggyjoe: Diablo 2, mixed with a FPS, toss it all into a dark post - apocalyptic setting and you've got hellgate.
Shaggyjoe: Oh really?
VardaValar1: Sounds intriguing. Old Diablo team supposed to have put it together.
VardaValar1: Aye, put his letter on the News if you want to read it sometime. He's been accepted.
Shaggyjoe: Yep
VardaValar1: at least as a recruit.
Eonwe Valar: True, Pallando did, pardon.
VardaValar1: Let's get started. : )

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: A star shines on the hour of our meeting.
VardaValar1: Membership report:
VardaValar1: Any of you want to tell member news?
VardaValar1: We have a potential recruit planning to join on LotRO, not formally in yet.
AriehnV: Holiday started :-)
VardaValar1: Congrats, Arien! Getting to play more?
VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: oops
VardaValar1: Gorlim's birthday was Jan 20, under Membership news. : )
ArPharazonV: congratulations Gorlim!
AriehnV: congrats , Gorlim :-)
AriehnV: aye hoping to play more but i hope for better web connections
VardaValar1: That really helps a gamer, or surfing for research.
AriehnV: very annoying for a high level char
VardaValar1: Good luck getting your new connection soon!
AriehnV: cheers :-)
VardaValar1: How many of you have started back to college?
arwenv1: I did :-)
VardaValar1: Sauron of course, just headed back up there after a weekend at home.
VardaValar1: Go Arwen!
VardaValar1: Eonwe is back too, trying to do his programming homework right now.
VardaValar1: Srekal the Quiet is in college too. : )
VardaValar1: Web:
ArPharazonV: I started back at college, but the second period is over now
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar. : )
ArPharazonV: one week of exams, then a free week, and then third period starting!

VardaValar1: Story writers top the busy group. Need to see more articles.
VardaValar1: Branwyn-(TV)'s "Lost and Found"
AriehnV: o ;
VardaValar1: Gandalf and young Faramir.
VardaValar1: Another story from Jay of Lasgalen is in my email, continuing about Ori learning Elvish.
VardaValar1: And another novel in the Mellon Chronicles series is slowly being formatted and put online, should be up this coming week.
VardaValar1: Outside our group but interesting, Srekal told of a timeline his group is working on in Tolkien Gateway:
VardaValar1: It can be used along with our timeline for your reference work.
VardaValar1: Any other web news?

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: What games did you folks play this last week that weren't WoW or LotRO? : )
VardaValar1: (Gelmir is back in college too)
Shaggyjoe: hehe
ArPharazonV: some flashgames on the internet, and Populous: The Beginning
Shaggyjoe: I'm playing some text only RPG's at
VardaValar1: Sounds fun
Shaggyjoe: Great fun :-)
arwenv1: I played a flash game as well :-) Addictive little thing.
VardaValar1: Which one?
arwenv1: its called Filler
VardaValar1: Thanks
VardaValar1: With a name, we can try to Google it. : )
VardaValar1: Thanks again.
arwenv1: its there :-) was finding the link
ArPharazonV: I've been quite a fan of the game 3d logic, lately
ArPharazonV: products_id=205
VardaValar1: There we go. Now maybe you folks have some new flash games to try. : )
VegetableMannn has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: the first is 3d logic, the other one is 3d logic 2
VardaValar1: Aiya Glorfindel. Didn't recognize you right off, pardon. : )
AriehnV: nice screen name :-)
VardaValar1: Thanks, Ar-Pharazon. : )
VardaValar1: Any other games you'd like to mention for this week before we go to WoW?
VardaValar1: Glor, you're in college too?
VardaValar1: On to WoW:
VardaValar1: Arien, would you like to make the Argent Dawn server report?
AriehnV: aye i can
VardaValar1: Thanks
AriehnV: small as usual but there is one :-)
VardaValar1: Bet it beats Uldaman's. : )
AriehnV: today the two bears, Calaron and Finduilasen, joined forces in Hellfire Peninsula to decimate raging colossi
AriehnV: Unfortunately there was not time for much more as the elder druid had to follow a call to the distant battle fields in Arathi
AriehnV: but Finduilaswen got ascertained that the larger task ahead will follow with his help too
AriehnV: else just to add that my game play got much hindered by lag and high latency lately but at least periodically playable on higher ground
AriehnV: thus endeth my report
VardaValar1: Thank you, Arien. : )
VardaValar1: Uldaman server: I think Elwing has been gaming there some, and some guild-friends, but I haven't been on there this week and have no email report from Elwing.
VardaValar1: Lothar server:
VardaValar1: That one has been busy. : )
VardaValar1: Fangorn, Eowyn, Bilbo, Galdor, and myself have been on.
VardaValar1: Arwen has been on working with other guilds, but in our friend channel and chatting with us. : )
VardaValar1: She's a great gem-cutter too.
VardaValar1: I've been making bags and working up to the 20-slot slowly, but getting there.
VardaValar1: LotRO:
Shaggyjoe: Gelmir is still sitting around the campfire in Hellfire telling stories of how he stood infront of Ragnaros the fire lord, and the lord of the Blackwing locked in mortal combat. :-)
VardaValar1: Last week we took time off from formally invading the Rift and worked on a bunch of Book and Chapter quests, most rewarding, and reaching some more GM (highest level) crafters.
VardaValar1: Sounds fun, Gelmir. : )
Shaggyjoe: There's crafting in LoTRO?
VardaValar1: For our Rift questing, we made it to Thrang and think we have him figured out. Balrog next.
VardaValar1: In LotRO, crafting is extremely big.
VardaValar1: You can make stuff at the highest level that often beats raid gear, at least even.
Shaggyjoe: Really?
VardaValar1: We also have housing: personal and kin.
Shaggyjoe: Thats awesome, glad to see they dont pigeonhole you into raiding to get good gear.
Eonwe Valar: Assuming you don't have to raid to get the items to craft the good gear? :}
VardaValar1: Some of us checked out Roheryn test server and found some great new stuff coming up for houses, clothing appearance, etc.
VardaValar1: No, we don't have to, Eonwe. : )
Eonwe Valar: Ok :}
VardaValar1: You can also spend your time farming potatoes if you prefer. : )
ArPharazonV: what's taters, precious
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: They actually have "taters"
VardaValar1: You can farm them or gather them in the fields.
VardaValar1: Anyone can gather the occasional wild crop item scattered about, like blackberries, or pick up honey.
Shaggyjoe: sure beats spending months farming end game instances for items needed to upgrade crafted items to stay on par with drops from the very raiding you do for the "mats".
VardaValar1: Cooking can be done at ovens or at campfires, depending on the food.
VardaValar1: ewww, Gelmir.
ArPharazonV: *agrees with Gelmir*
Shaggyjoe: Ie all the end game crafted items in WoW.
ArPharazonV: I know what you mean, I made myself belt and boots from SSC/TK...
arwenv1: I don't find they take months of farming =o
ArPharazonV: first you need to get the patterns from the instances.. then you need to get the mats from the instances... then you can make the stuff that's on par with the instances
arwenv1: though the belts you have to raid for, for the nether vortexes
ArPharazonV: exactly
ArPharazonV: same goes for the hearts of darkness from BT/Hyjal now
arwenv1: though I usually farm what I find easy and profitable to farm, then just sell it and buy the things I find hard to farm.
Shaggyjoe: I don't have time to "farm" anymore.
arwenv1: :-) I'm not bothering with BT/Hyjal stuff yet
arwenv1: I think I have 2 upgrades to t5 equiv gear left.. or 3, and just waiting for us to get Kael down
Shaggyjoe: With college, work, my trumpet, car and social life I have time to get on a few hours a night to socialize with my online friends and to play the slew of rpg's i'm playing.
ArPharazonV: I'm trying to, but don't have a raidgroup [WOW] at the moment... I'm friends-status with a group who just started BT/Hyjal, though, and they're starting altraids to TK/SSC soon
ArPharazonV: so I might be able to join those
arwenv1: but Arena and pvp are nice supliments for crafted/farmed things
arwenv1: Nice :-)
ArPharazonV: trying to get on the list for it by convincing raidleaders I should be on it :-)
Shaggyjoe: I was leading SSC when my guild collapsed.
arwenv1: hehe, my raidgroup is learning the kael fight, and going into SSC again (Our druid tank who did some of the bosses had a month inthe hospital) so we're just getting into it
Shaggyjoe: 2nd time I've burnt out raiding so I threw in the towel. All of my good gear came from Arena anyway.
VardaValar1: Do you know why it collapsed?
ArPharazonV: when our group collapsed at the end of August, we'd done all of SSC except Vashj and we'd gotten down Voidreaver in TK
ArPharazonV: Vashj was wearing us down a lot, made us quite irritable
ArPharazonV: when our leader decided to step down... nobody took over... so we just decided to disband
ArPharazonV: quite a shame
arwenv1: in SSC, we've done The Lurker Below and Hydross, working on Morogrim, in TK, all but Kael :-)
arwenv1: that is sad =(
ArPharazonV: Vashj is a raidkiller... in many ways
VardaValar1: Why is it so hard to get someone to take over?
ArPharazonV: I know of several groups who fell apart at that point in progress
arwenv1: I havent even looked at the fight, but if its anything like Kael, I can see why
ArPharazonV: well, our own leader was quite famous, she had dragged us through the lvl 60 endgame as well, and nobody was quite looking forward to filling her shoes
ArPharazonV: also, as I said, the group was already quite agitated and brittle from Vashj and other incidents
Shaggyjoe: Yeah, it's the normal problem with "semi-casual" raid guilds. Half our guild was into hardcore progression, the other half wanted to just raid occasionally, so we had a "core group" each raid and filled the rest with casuals.
Shaggyjoe: but when it came time to learning fights that required a little bit of prior knowldge we spend many many nights training and re-training casual players while us core players were wanting to progress.
arwenv1: In a guild of 30-50 active people, the guild leader puts up with a lot of stuff.. mainly whining and moaning about lots of things :-)
VardaValar1: ouch
Shaggyjoe: ack my aim is messy
Shaggyjoe: long post. to sum it up, core players got tired of wiping, it got too expensive to teach people the fights if they only raided once a week.
arwenv1: and orgainzing getting 25 people together at one time, several times a week is crazy :-)
ArPharazonV: we'd already lost several core people to arguments and fights within the group... people were starting to pick on each other...
ArPharazonV: I don't blame her for stepping down... she's just a normal member of anothe raidgroup now, and enjoying it... quite fed up with leading
VardaValar1: Thanks.
ArPharazonV: she'd earned it, of course, after everything she'd done for us :-)
VardaValar1: : )
ArPharazonV: too bad it meant the end of the community
arwenv1: Its crazy, but when those 25 people do get together, and everyone does what they should, and you finally get a boss down, thats an awesome feeling.
ArPharazonV: oh yes, definitely
arwenv1: There is nothing else quite like it in Wow :-)
ArPharazonV: I remember shaking in my chair when we first got Nefarian down in Blackwing Lair
Shaggyjoe: lol
Fladrifv has entered the room.
Fladrifv: Aiya!
Shaggyjoe: I remember shaking with rage because it was always the druid call when I would try to tank him!
arwenv1: Aiya :-)
arwenv1: hehe
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Shaggyjoe: Hello
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: Aiya Ent : )
ArPharazonV: yes, druids shouldn't tank Nefarian... that druid call is a killer ;-)
arwenv1: and even though you wipe a lot learning and doing progression, its awesome to see progress, to know that you keep getting better :-)
ArPharazonV: maybe looking at the calls, paladins would be the best tanks for Nef
ArPharazonV: don't think we ever tried that though...
ArPharazonV: prot-paladins weren't all that good yet in that time
arwenv1: Never done Nef, only started raiding after BC, but the class calls on Hexlord are aweful
ArPharazonV: oh yes, I've had my first encounters with Hexlord Malacrass in the last few weeks... haven't gotten him down yet
arwenv1: We got him down friday, and then Zul'jin to 41% :-)
ArPharazonV: dragonhawk boss is great fun, though, if you know what to do
arwenv1: was awesome
arwenv1: yes!~
ArPharazonV: oh, nice
arwenv1: My favorite is Lynx boss though
arwenv1: as a healer, it has a great rythem to the fight
ArPharazonV: hmm, I find Lynx a bit boring... but I'm always either tank or melee dps (feral druid)
arwenv1: and its challenging without being hairpullingout crazy :-)
ArPharazonV: what do you think of eagle?
arwenv1: Eagle is a bit annoying, but there is a thing that can give you an edge
arwenv1: if someone who is melee dps or tank turns down their game sound and turns ambient sound up, you hear crickets during the normal time
arwenv1: and almost exactly 5 seconds before the electrical storm, you hear rain
ArPharazonV: ah
ArPharazonV: well, we have several addons that give warnings for it etc
arwenv1: When we figured that out, its a lot easier to get everyone
arwenv1: in at the right time
arwenv1: DBM and Bigwigs give warnings
ArPharazonV: we usually gather up 10 seconds before the storm just to be sure
ArPharazonV: aye, DBM is what we use
arwenv1: but they are frequently just estimates
ArPharazonV: true
arwenv1: and you go in and take static charges again and again, when you dont need to
ArPharazonV: hmm... I'll suggest that to the group some time
arwenv1: this way, you just go in when the storm is going to happen, then go out right after
ArPharazonV: *nod*
arwenv1: makes healing much less crazy :-)
ArPharazonV: still, dragonhawk's my favorite
arwenv1: :-) cool
ArPharazonV: we've recently started a new strategy for the smaller dragonhawks
arwenv1: I end up healing the dragonhatcher paladin tank
ArPharazonV: we usually try to deplete one complete side in 2-3 waves
arwenv1: ahh :-)
ArPharazonV: it works great
arwenv1: We kill one hatcher, let the other hatcher hatch all on one side, aoe them down, then repeat on the other side
ArPharazonV: by the time they're all released, you only have to fight like a quarter of em
arwenv1: :-)
ArPharazonV: yeah, we try to do the same, but in twice as many waves, to prevent them from running over our casters
arwenv1: that mass hatch when he hits his soft enrage is crazy, yes
arwenv1: we have a paladin tank them
ArPharazonV: we don't always have a paladin... I got most of them last time with aoe shouts etc
arwenv1: occationally a few get loose, but its generally a straight forward thing :-)
ArPharazonV: a few swipes
arwenv1: cool :-)
arwenv1: we have a couple paladin tanks, which is good
ArPharazonV: *nod*
arwenv1: though if we're running two ZA groups at once, we might have a druid second tank
ArPharazonV: most spectacular bit has to be the bombs he throws, though :-)
ArPharazonV: that moment they all go boom... very nice
arwenv1: that is an awesome graphic :-) like flame eggs
arwenv1: What did you guys do on Morogrim?
arwenv1: Thats our current stuck, atm
ArPharazonV: oh, we usually had a druid tanking Morogrim, for the damage spikes
arwenv1: We do that, our problem is with the murlocs
ArPharazonV: also, 2 paladins would take care of the murlocs, by healing themselves when they showed up for initial aggro and then consecrating
ArPharazonV: also, a warlock or 2 with that mass stun helps
arwenv1: hmm, we have a hard time getting the paladins to get aggro on the murlocs
ArPharazonV: not sure what we did, but I think the paladins were just fine
arwenv1: even with healing aggro, the druid tends to get the murloc aggro
ArPharazonV: occasionally someone would get a murloc or 2, but we usually got it right
arwenv1: :-) Maybe we need more practice
ArPharazonV: maybe :-)
ArPharazonV: try to top off the tank right before they come, and keep healing down before the paladins have them
arwenv1: probably have people casting Prayer of mending or someone in the melee group doing something with aoe threat
ArPharazonV: perhaps
arwenv1: I've been in the tomb healer section and have had to heal from fade somewhat
ArPharazonV: hmm, not sure what our healers did there
AriehnV: it is very interesting to hear but ... i think , isn t there a topic missing?
arwenv1: =o eek
arwenv1: Sorry, got distracted
AriehnV: *grins broadly* , happens
arwenv1: You know, enthusiastic gamers :-)
VardaValar1: Sounds like a nice cross-pollination of ideas between Europe and the Americas.
arwenv1: We should talk more, ArPharazon :-)
VardaValar1: : )
ArPharazonV: I just like reminiscing, really ;-)
arwenv1: hehe
ArPharazonV: sure, that sounds good, we could teach each other a few things
VardaValar1: Might help on your respective raids next run.
VardaValar1: Ready for a quick bit of Tolkien, then free chat time?
arwenv1: :-) sure

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Gregory Bassham says that after studying Tolkien, he found six important lessons to being happy. : )
VardaValar1: A quick list of them are:
VardaValar1: 1. Delight in simple things
VardaValar1: 2. Make light of your troubles.
VardaValar1: 3. Get personal.
VardaValar1: 4. Cultivate good character.
VardaValar1: 5. Cherish and create beauty.
VardaValar1: 6. Rediscover wonder.
VardaValar1: You might think of some more. He felt these were the most stressed, at least.
VardaValar1: .
VardaValar1: I think it's delightful that anyone searched Tolkien's works for his ideas on happiness and contentment. : )
VardaValar1: 1. Delight in simple things. Can you think of any examples of those?
VardaValar1: in Tolkien, I mean. : )
Sarujil: food, to hobbits
ArPharazonV: the Hobbits' mentality to food and farmland, yes
VardaValar1: bright clothing
Sarujil: round doors
VardaValar1: ohhh, nice. : )
VardaValar1: Parties
ArPharazonV: presents :-)
Shaggyjoe: sleep
Shaggyjoe: I delight in sleep :-)
VardaValar1: Passing the same present all around
Sarujil: mushrooms and pipeweed
VardaValar1: The hobbits had minimal government, kept life simple.
VardaValar1: Singing cheerful songs about bathtubs and such familiar things.
Sarujil: they also like geneology, thats not very simple :-)
ArPharazonV: mushrooms...
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Family-related
ArPharazonV: any examples that *don't* relate to hobbits?
VardaValar1: Elves in Tolkien often were quite merry. They would laughingly greet people, tease.
VardaValar1: They loved song and poetry
Shaggyjoe: it always kind of struck me that elves saw the world from a different set of "eyes" as men and the other sub races did.
Sarujil: but what was simple about elves?
VardaValar1: They liked gathering together in the Hall of Fire to listen to song and poetry, a kind of party to them.
Shaggyjoe: So from that point of view you could say that elves saw the good in everything, and by everything I mean the way that leaves fall from a tree, or the way that ripples on a lake reverbate when a fish jumps.
AriehnV: starlight, they loved the stars
VardaValar1: Mirkwood elves feasted in the woods in simple surroundings, and their presence lightened the shadow, kept away spiders.
VardaValar1: Aye, they would wait for Valacirca to rise and would then sing.
VardaValar1: They came together in halls to enjoy food with each other.
VardaValar1: Well said, Gelmir
ArPharazonV: and wine, if I remember the Hobbit...
AriehnV: the love in beauty i think was there .. look at the how the first elves designed Tirion
VardaValar1: Dorwinion was a special wine for the king's table, but they had all sorts of wine. Aye
VardaValar1: Elves were originally designed for beauty and enjoyed it in anything they saw or made.
AriehnV: and i know its a hobbit one again but ye just CANT forget pipeweed and smoking ;-)
VardaValar1: Which Gandalf picked up. ;-)
Shaggyjoe: indeed
Shaggyjoe: lol
Shaggyjoe: passed that habbit onto me as well. :P
VardaValar1: They had many simple pleasures that they liked to share. Hiking, feasting, singing.
AriehnV: elves that isd
VardaValar1: I only smoke in LotRO. Love to make smoke rings, butterflies, birds in smoke. : )
AriehnV: i found the scene in the Fellowship movie very cute
VardaValar1: Elves really loved nature.
AriehnV: where Gandalf and Bilbo sit in front of the house
ArPharazonV: where Gandalf makes a ship out of smoke?
ArPharazonV: impossible, I say!
AriehnV: aye
Shaggyjoe: he sooo cheated. ^.~
VardaValar1: Wizardly of him. : )
AriehnV: possible or not it is cute
VardaValar1: hehe Gelmir
VardaValar1: But he also had fun amusing Bilbo with it. : )
ArPharazonV: of course he cheated, he had CG supporting him >.>
Shaggyjoe: haha
ArPharazonV: or is it... magic!
AriehnV: its magic of course
VardaValar1: Light and Magic. : )
VardaValar1: 2. Make light of your troubles.
AriehnV: :-)
VardaValar1: This is often behind the hobbits' remarkable powers of recovery.
AriehnV: aye i think so it would have been to amuse bilbo to drive away the shadow of his departure and there was more than one
VardaValar1: When separated, Merry misses Pippin's unquenchable cheerfulness.
VardaValar1: Aye, Arien.
VardaValar1: Merry and Pippin sit on the ruin of Isengard chatting and eating.
AriehnV: and aragorn pulls frodos legs just when he cured him of a deadly injury
AriehnV: or merrys sorry
AriehnV: my bad
VardaValar1: Good one. : )
ArPharazonV: when was that?
VardaValar1: Halls of Healing
AriehnV: Tkhe houses of healing
AriehnV: in Minas tirith
VardaValar1: Humor is mixed in all over as a way to deal with the darkness.
VardaValar1: But besides humor, they had something bigger that helped.
VardaValar1: Sam looked up from the darkness of Mordor and saw a star of beauty that caught his heart, reminding him that the Dark Shadow was only a small and passing thing.
VardaValar1: There was light and beauty forever beyond its reach.
AriehnV: the light that fell on the old kings statue on the crossroads
AriehnV: *they cant win forever*
VardaValar1: Those who kept up their own spirits also kept up the spirits of those around them who could not see it right off.
VardaValar1: Very good. Aye.
Sarujil: the whole 'gollum do you want to be the hero?' fantasy
VardaValar1: There you go.
VardaValar1: 3. Get Personal.
ArPharazonV: that sounds so wrong...
ArPharazonV: let's get personal
VardaValar1: Hobbits had a huge capacity for friendship.
VardaValar1: Maybe we can come up with a better way of saying number 3. : )
VardaValar1: The whole Fellowship brought out the concept of friendship and how important it was.
VardaValar1: Between people and peoples.
AriehnV: *the social factor*
VardaValar1: That might be better, aye. : )
VardaValar1: For peoples to come together, first individuals have to be able to make friendships.
ArPharazonV: Gimli and Legolas...
Shaggyjoe: Well having someone to rely on when you personally might not see the light of the tunnel is unvaluable.
Shaggyjoe: That rings true in our lives just as much as it does in story.
VardaValar1: Aragorn was raised by elves, so he already had a strong insight and feeling for them, yet he was also the leader of human rangers, and they protected all in their area, including hobbits.
Shaggyjoe: Common grounds brought two of the most unlikely people together and created an extremely strong bond.
Eonwe Valar: Think you mean "invaluable" Gel :}
VardaValar1: Aye, Gelmir and Eonwe. : )
Shaggyjoe: never said I was an english major :P
VardaValar1: Just need to get the concepts down. Doing good. Never hurts to get spelling help. : )
Shaggyjoe: yeah *in* thanks. I'm not rereading what I'm typing lol
VardaValar1: Hardly anyone had heard of hobbits. Thanks to personal friendships, they received protection for the Shire from the new High King.
VardaValar1: for the hobbit lands, I should say. : )
VardaValar1: The Woses came out well for helping Theoden-king.
AriehnV: wonder whether more *outlanders* visited the shire after the beginning of the fourth age
ArPharazonV: dwarves and elves maybe, but the big folk were not allowed in there I think
AriehnV: meaning non hobbits
ArPharazonV: not even Aragorn allowed himself to go in, they had to meet him at the east gate
VardaValar1: Aye.
VardaValar1: Powerful friendships are what held the fellowship together over far more than their one year spent in destroying the Ring.
VardaValar1: They continued their friendships their entire lives.
AriehnV: aye
VardaValar1: This helped rebuild their world after saving it.
VardaValar1: 4. Cultivate Good Character
Shaggyjoe: is there any further explaination to what he means?
Shaggyjoe: Other than "be a good person"
VardaValar1: aye
ArPharazonV: make other people into good people?
VardaValar1: In "Letters", Tolkien says he wanted to encourage good morals. It's shown in his main characters in how well such morals work in practice with each other.
Shaggyjoe: I see that as "If you wish to lead a happy and full life, you have to start by leading your life as an example to the many. -
Shaggyjoe: Treat others as though they are your brother or sister, and respect everyone, even those that don't deserve your respect."
Shaggyjoe: aye, morals I suppose is a better way to sum it up. ha
VardaValar1: Intimate and supportive relationships, a focus beyond the self.
ArPharazonV: you get all that from "cultivate good character", Gelm?
VardaValar1: Many good ways to say this. : )
AriehnV: its a bit of a mind juggle though
Shaggyjoe: Well to first cultivate good character inside yourself, you have to have the strength of will to show others HOW a "good" or even "godly" person acts.
AriehnV: which dosnt make it wrong
VardaValar1: Being a complete jerk keeps a person from having pleasant relationships and being happy. : )
Shaggyjoe: In that sense, through your benevelence (sp?) towards others you create in yourself the moral and ethical strength that is needed to live that life.
ArPharazonV: benevolence if I'm not mistaken.. I'm no English major either, though
VardaValar1: People need to feel appreciated. Give them that and it gives them strength.
Shaggyjoe: and through strengthening others you yourself are strengthened.
VardaValar1: Aye!
VardaValar1: They appreciate you back. Feedback loop strengthens the group.
Shaggyjoe: afk a few, i'll return.
VardaValar1: 5. Cherish and Create Beauty
VardaValar1: Even ruins of beautiful creations such as architecture are still uplifting.
ArPharazonV: I think Lothlorien is one of the most striking examples of point 5
VardaValar1: Aye. : )
ArPharazonV: the 3 Elven rings, in general
VardaValar1: Rivendell is one also.
ArPharazonV: were specialised in that very same
ArPharazonV: Fangorn could probably also fall into that category, as Saruman tried to burn it down and the ents fought back hard to preserve their forest
VardaValar1: Good example.
VardaValar1: The remnant of an ancient forest that once stretched very far.
ArPharazonV: maybe the Scouring of the Shire too, as the Hobbits came back they found their lands stripped of beauty and they brought it back
VardaValar1: Beauty can be lofty as in stars or closer such as Tom Bombadil's pleasant house and Beorn's honey cakes.
VardaValar1: Aye, the Party Tree became even greater as the only Mallorn west of Lothlorien.
VardaValar1: Everyone had common cause and came together to rebuild.
VardaValar1: Minas Tirith was even better after the rebuilding, instead of facing a continued slow decline.
VardaValar1: Having beauty around one, such as green forests, uplifts the soul. Reek and broken ruin of Mordor proves the point by being opposite.
VardaValar1: 6. Rediscover Wonder
VardaValar1: Instead of being self-absorbed, people can become fascinated by the amazing things around them, discovering new things.
AriehnV: see sam to start with :-)
ArPharazonV: and the mumakil? ;-)
AriehnV: *this is it* - sam sais in the film
VardaValar1: Humans are said to quickly become satiated with beauty, or good, while elves have an endless capacity for enjoying it, because they are much less self-absorbed.
AriehnV: *whats is it * _ *if i go one step more this is further than i have ever beeen in my live*
VardaValar1: This prevents their immortality from becoming boring.
AriehnV: something like that
VardaValar1: Aye, pretty much what he said.
VardaValar1: And Frodo helps him make that one step over the line : )
AriehnV: what s that saying .. some philosopher came up with it .. *even the longest jouney starts with a step* or more the other way round i guess is *the journey that never gets started takes the longest*
VardaValar1: Fits well.
VardaValar1: And that was our concluding point. : )
VardaValar1: Thank you all for coming.
ArPharazonV: no problem!
VardaValar1: *bangs gavel* just because it has a nifty percussion sound.

VardaValar1: After-meeting!
ArPharazonV: after I finish reading through the batch of Discworld books I bought a few months ago, I should go re-read Lotr again
ArPharazonV: I find I'm forgetting a lot of details and instead only refer to the movies
VardaValar1: Good plan. : )
VardaValar1: That's a good time. Now you can rediscover the wonder. : )
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: Soooo much was left out of the movies that it can be startling to do the re-read. : )
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: I need to go make supper like a proper hobbit. : )
VardaValar1: Nice group here again, 11 of us tonight. : )
VardaValar1: Have fun chatting at will. : )
VegetableMannn: =)
Eonwe Valar: Take care Vardqa.
Eonwe Valar: Varda even.
ArPharazonV: enjoy your meal!
VardaValar1: Thanks : )
AriehnV: good night everyone :-) and thanks for the nice meeting
AriehnV: Namarie
AriehnV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: I'll save and send
VardaValar1: Thanks, Ar-Pharazon.
VardaValar1: We may have to consider letting you out of that cave someday. : )
VardaValar1: The name of the book we used tonight was "The Lord of the Rings and Philosophy". ed Bassham and Bronson.
VardaValar1: Cheers.
ArPharazonV: allright
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Shaggyjoe: peace yall
Shaggyjoe has left the room.
Srekal86 has left the room.
VegetableMannn: can someone translate "the fall of nargothrond" to me in elvish