February 10, 2008 Meeting
5pm EST (GMT - 5);
(GMT = 22:00)
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AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe, and Varda
Sarujil, AriehnV, ArPharazonV, arwenv1,
Eonwe Valar (presided 2nd half),
Fladrifv, VardaValar1 (presided 1st half).
Dirhavel's birthday was Feb. 5.
Fladrif's birthday is May 10; the birthday on the Forum is for the previous Fladrif.
New Music by Glorfindel
WoW: upcoming ability of Europe and Americas to game together.
LotRO: Book 12 update this coming Wednesday.
What do we know of Hobbits' impact on Arnor?
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Ar-Pharazon the Golden and first-in. :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya :-)
VardaValar1: Sure hope you can save the transcript as you usually do.
I'm on a different comp and it is not happy about my save attempts.
ArPharazonV: well, I'll try
VardaValar1: Thanks. You've been doing great. I'll try a few other ways.
VardaValar1: hah! It requires .html, just won't take .htm
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien :-)
AriehnV: Aiya , Varda and Ar Pharazon :-)
VardaValar1: Struggling with a different comp and AIM program.
AriehnV: oh dear , is it a new one?
VardaValar1: no, just diff than my usual one.
AriehnV: aha ... well , we are still losing packages on the broadband
connection but at least BT is on the go on it now .. the vans are out ,
or will be out again tomorrow
VardaValar1: That is good news. :-)
VardaValar1: All invites are sent now.
AriehnV: heaven knows how long it will take to sort out but hopefully
at least within the next week .. . this issue has been straining both
our patience quite a bit
VardaValar1: Too bad we can't just push a button and everything is instantly repaired. That's rl for you.
AriehnV: i know , Varda :-) i know , so we have to cope with it best as we can
Sarujil has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Anc! : )
VardaValar1: Rift raid coming up in an hour. I plan to be there.
AriehnV: hey anc :-)
AriehnV: nice , good fluck for it
VardaValar1: Thanks I think : )
VardaValar1: Cheer us on, send bandages. Thrang has not been kind to us.
Sarujil: yay three hours of thrang beatin us down, woohoo!
VardaValar1: We do good until the 4 shamans come out. You and I were the last to die. : )
Sarujil: once camronn went down it was pretty much over
VardaValar1: Suppose more tanks would help?
VardaValar1: Boudica wants to come.
AriehnV: had a go at Omen ye?
AriehnV: will send some sunlight to keep you warm during the fight at least .. or better need some cooling breeze
Sarujil: well, at the very least, keeping the tank that is on thrang alive is imperative
VardaValar1: Both could help.
VardaValar1: No one would argue with that. : )
AriehnV: i fear she is too small yet .... only level 24 :-( (hehe my warrior is called Boudicea)
VardaValar1: Interesting. : )
AriehnV: the auchindoun one
VardaValar1: You and Boudica can swap tales
VardaValar1: Since there are only 4 people showing up, we can do an informal meeting.
arwenv1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arwen : )
VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Membership News:
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe : )
arwenv1: Aiya :-)
VardaValar1: Fladrif and Dirhavel had birthdays this week. : )
Eonwe Valar: heya
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?
ArPharazonV: did he now? I could swear Fladrif's birthday's in May...
VardaValar1: If he comes, we can ask him. : )
VardaValar1: On the Forum calendar, it's listed as Feb 3
VardaValar1: We can ask him to fix it.
VardaValar1: I've been working on the Music page, carefully refraining
from tearing my hair out since it takes quite some time to grow it this
VardaValar1: In the good news, another music piece from Glorfindel is up!
VardaValar1: I highly recommend it, and it has lyrics. Written out, even.
VardaValar1: Here's his new music author's page with the latest piece:
VardaValar1: It is stuck in my head now.
VardaValar1: He has another beautiful and rather spooky piece,
Luthien's Spell, that seems to have uploaded three times to the server
and eats space, but also doesn't show.
VardaValar1: Maybe Eonwe can spot it.
VardaValar1: If so, please paste in the URL so I can swipe it for the page. : )
VardaValar1: Any further web news?
VardaValar1: Any games this week that weren't WoW or LotRO? : )
VardaValar1: What? : )
ArPharazonV: bit of The Incredible Machine 3, bit of Populous: The Beginning, and a large variety of online flashgames which I've been trying out
VardaValar1: Sounds fun. : )
ArPharazonV: also tried to get Warlords 2 Deluxe going, but it doesn't seem to work in windows xp
ArPharazonV: something with memory and other things
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar. Maybe it likes another OS, aye.
VardaValar1: On to WoW
VardaValar1: Arien has a report for Argent Dawn server. : ) Go ahead.
AriehnV: Indeeed :-) we have both good and bad news
AriehnV: .i prefer to start with bad so it leaves no sour taste
AriehnV: adn end with good
AriehnV: so .. lets begin
AriehnV: Menelvagor has retreated permanently from WoW and sold his account
VardaValar1: Did he say what the problem was?
AriehnV: he was bored with the game
AriehnV: three years in the game .. i guess , too many high levels
AriehnV: too much raiding
AriehnV: nothing new for him anymore i think
VardaValar1: Tell him to come to LotRO. :-)
AriehnV: no other communication line but aim now i am afraid
Eonwe Valar: And the Forum.
AriehnV: he will stay in our big Valar guild just but just left wow
ArPharazonV: I still have him on msn
AriehnV: which brings me to the positive bit ..
AriehnV: or something like it ;-)
AriehnV: as he was the guild leader of the branch with all the functions there was need for a new one
AriehnV: and my priest Ahrienn took over the sceptre
AriehnV: being a holy priest with some discipline she is interested in restoring life
Eonwe Valar: Good luck with recruiting Tolkien fans.
AriehnV: so i will give five months time for a try to recruit people for our guild branch :-)
AriehnV: once our connection is sorted that is
VardaValar1: Aye, good luck to you.
AriehnV: cheers can do with it
AriehnV: but i want at least to be able to say that i tried it
AriehnV: go down in glory or some such ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I meant that in a good way if it sounded bad.
AriehnV: its all right :-) i understood it in a good way
AriehnV: there has also been some grouping going on
AriehnV: first Calaron and Finduilaswen teamed up to use the seed of revival in Hellfire
AriehnV: a quest on behalf of the younger drood
AriehnV: then Ardanna, my laggy tank and Aeremehtar teamed up to deal with some ogres, yetis , Elementals and nAGAS in Feralas
AriehnV: no bigger problems there after some .. say hindrances to get to each other but we managed
AriehnV: thus endeth my report :-) (small addition .. Ard is 48 now and Findu 64 :-)) )
Eonwe Valar: Congrats.
Eonwe Valar: Varda had to go afk for a moment, so yours truly is now chairing.
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately, I wasn't able to make it to Lothar this Friday due to classwork, so I have no report from Lothar.
Eonwe Valar: I do, however, have some general news, which once you hear it, I'm sure you all will see how it may suggest good things in the future.
VardaValar1: Bilbo was on Lothar Friday raiding, Fangorn and Bilbo quite active together part of the week.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Varda.
Eonwe Valar: My news is a quote from the WoW US Forums:
Eonwe Valar: "With the 2.4.0 PTR, we will be allowing US, EU and Korean
players to access all available PTR realms. Players will be able to
choose which test realm they wish to play on without being restricted
Eonwe Valar: We currently plan to make all PTR realms available in this way for all future patches."
AriehnV: *wooohoot *
Eonwe Valar: PTR = Public Test Realm.
Eonwe Valar: A patch is released to these before it hits the normal servers.
Eonwe Valar: The immediate impact is that we could perhaps use the same
PTR if Guild members across the oceans wanted to at least be able to
get together every now and then while these servers are up
AriehnV: hmm does that mean we will be able to play together? US and europe?
VardaValar1: Aye, on a test server. We need to pick one. : )
Eonwe Valar: The future imnpact is that with this step, Guild members
from around the world may eventually be able to join us on Lothar.
Might be a while off yet, but this at least makes it seem more
AriehnV: nice :-)]
VardaValar1: We have a nice guild house there with several paid pages.
VardaValar1: er, bank
Eonwe Valar: Well, I'd pick the US PTR since it's the middleground.
Eonwe Valar: paid bank pages, aye :}
AriehnV: how wil this work? will they be in the realms list?
Eonwe Valar: One sec, pardon.
Fladrifv has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Fladrif! Heya!
VardaValar1: We had a burning question about you, Flad. Was your birthday Feb 3? : )
Fladrifv: hehe, luckely I was far away from the fire then
Fladrifv: no sorry I have mine on 10 may
ArPharazonV: see! *points finger*
VardaValar1: Thanks. Might see if it's listed wrong on the Forum.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, PTRs usually are signed up for either on the Community
site or through account management, if memory is serving me as well as
it should be.
VardaValar1: Phar let me know it was wrong. : )
Fladrifv: I actually registered on the forum on my birthdate :-)
Fladrifv: Date Registered:May 10, 2004, 1:50am
VardaValar1: Thanks, Eonwe. That is big news for our WoWites. : )
VardaValar1: LotRO general news: The big Book 12 update
is going to be Wednesday, servers down 6am to noon minimum, but Roheryn
test server will be up where we also have a Valar branch.
VardaValar1: More specific news, a number of us are positioned to jump
into Book 12, others closing in on it, and more are almost ready to do
our bit of raiding.
VardaValar1: A lot of folk have very high level crafters, Grand Masters, and are doing a great job.
VardaValar1: We are about to start our third day of Rift raid in about
10 minutes, so I leave you all in Eonwe's capable hands. : )
Eonwe Valar: I guess that does it for our LotRO news then :}
Eonwe Valar: Just a remember about the WoW PTR for those who decide to try it out:
Eonwe Valar: er, reminder, not remember
AriehnV: ok Varda have fun :-)
VardaValar1: Thanks : )
Eonwe Valar: join channel Valar to find other members. That's our Guild friend channel on both Uldaman and Lothar, and I assume Argent Dawn as well.
use /join Valar. After that, you can use the number assigned to that
chat for the day instead of typing Valar. Use /chatwho valar to see who
else is present in the channel.]
[Note: LotRO also, use /joinchannel Valar and enable UserChat number in your tab filter.]
AriehnV: aye indeed and Aeremethtar, that is Valandil, has joined us there
Eonwe Valar: We can also set up a forum post under WoW general so those
getting on the US PTR to be able to get with other guild members around
the world will know who to look for.
Eonwe Valar: Sometimes they only let you transfer a character to the PTR, sometimes they have premades.
Eonwe Valar: Sometimes both.
AriehnV: ah cool
AriehnV: i hope i can figure out how
Eonwe Valar: Pretty sure it's done through Account Management.
Eonwe Valar: They usually put a link on the Community Site when it's available though.
Eonwe Valar: So if you follow that link when it's up, I'm sure it'll give better instructions.
AriehnV: ok great :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: If there's no more news in this column, we can move to
Tolkien and I can challenge your knowledge of the three books I know we
have all read :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, Tolkien:
Eonwe Valar: My question is simple, but don't let that stop you from grabbing your books.
Eonwe Valar: In fact, the more places you can site for this info, the better :}
Eonwe Valar: *cite
Eonwe Valar: What do we know of Hobbits' impact on Arnor?
Sarujil: supposedly they sent some archers to help fight
VardaValar1: They became the ones that the remnants of the Numenoreans protected.
Sarujil: in lotro you can actually find their arrowheads in the ruins of fornost :-)
ArPharazonV: well, they did send a handful of archers to a battle.. the last battle with the Witchking, if I"m not mistaken
ArPharazonV: but not sure if that was at Fornost?
Eonwe Valar: Norbury from Hobbit accounts, but aye :}
ArPharazonV: anyway, some pack of hobbits we all know did destroy the Ring, which ultimately had a positive effect on Arnor
ArPharazonV: or at least, prevented a negative effect
Eonwe Valar: Let's look more at their impact from approximately Shire Reckoning 1 to The death of Smaug.
Eonwe Valar: We al,l know the last part very well.
Eonwe Valar: How did they come to live in the Shire in the first place?
ArPharazonV: ok, Shire Reckoning 1... 2 brothers set out from Bree and locate a nice open place called the Shire
Sarujil: wasnt it marcho and blanco or something?
Eonwe Valar: Aye
ArPharazonV: I *believe* they got permission from the king at... norbury... to settle there, but I could be mistaken
Sarujil: rings a bell
Eonwe Valar: Apparently they preserve no knowledge of their original home (-Prologue)
Eonwe Valar: So, why were they allowed to settle the area that became known as the Shire?
Eonwe Valar: You can all open your books and/or offer insight or thoughts :}
ArPharazonV: well, I suppose the King at Norbury wasn't using it very
much, and he allowed the hobbits to live there as long as they would
maintain the bridges and roads to accomodate messengers from coming true
ArPharazonV: through, sorry
AriehnV: they lived in the upper vales of Anduiln originally between the Eaves of greenwood the great and the Misty mountains
Sarujil: wonder if any hobbits hung around...
Eonwe Valar: Aye, some of their old legends mention the darkening of Mirkwood it seems.
VardaValar1: The hobbits may not have taken as much damage as others
VardaValar1 has left the room.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: damge from?
Eonwe Valar: *damage
ArPharazonV: we know Gollum's people hung around for a while after the migrations, Anc
Eonwe Valar: That might've been before the migrations.
AriehnV: it seems that it were the fallohides that came in the
westlands of Eriador between the Misty Mountains and the mountains of
lune who established links with the dunedain
ArPharazonV: since it was quite a while later, about 500 years before
the war of the ring unless I'm mistaken, that the ring was found and
Gollum was cast out
Eonwe Valar: Flipping to Tale of Years in RotK for that info now.
AriehnV: they were noted for being more adventourous, more skilled in songs and languages than handiwork
AriehnV: and more friendly with Elves and men
ArPharazonV: third age, 2463, Eonwe
AriehnV: they preferred also more the hunt than the tilling of the soil
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, Iretract my statement based on the Tale of years.
Eonwe Valar: Does seem there were still Hobbits out as far east as the Anduin after the founding of the Shire.
Sarujil: could be something interesting for lotro to explore, hobbits east of the misties. but thats off topic :-)
AriehnV: 1601 of the thrid age the fallohide brothers, marcho and
Blanko set out from Bree and , having obtained permission from the high
king at Fornost, they crossed the brown river Baranduin with a great
following of hobbits
ArPharazonV: in fact, if I have my facts straight from Unfinished
Tales, the Nazgul did indeed start their search for the Shire on the
east side of the mountains
ArPharazonV: if they hadn't, they would have reached the Shire a lot sooner
ArPharazonV: but alas, I appear not to have UT on me right now...
AriehnV: all that was demanded of them was that they should keep the
Great Bridge in repair , and all other bridges and roads , speed the
king's messngers, and acknowledge his lordship
ArPharazonV: 2 pieces of lotr, silm, hobbit... *searches*
VardaValar1: 2 pieces. Sounds like my books. Tape is your friend.
ArPharazonV: no, no, I mean fellowship and rotk :-)
ArPharazonV: 2 out of 3
AriehnV: Argelebb II was the king in Fornost then according to the prologue
Eonwe Valar: The Hobbits of the Shire maintain that they sent bowmen to
the last battle at Fornost, but no records of men mention them. Any
Fladrifv: nighty all, I will try to be less treeish next time
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Fladrif :}
Sarujil: probably because it was the last battle. not a whole lot of people made it outta there
ArPharazonV: according to a lotr parody I have sitting on my shelf it's
because it was never sure on whose side they fought that battle...
Sarujil: arvedui fled north to forochel if i remember right, and was lost there
ArPharazonV: buuut concerning the actual book I think we can consider it likely that they were on the side of Men
VardaValar1: I'll go with that, Phar : )
AriehnV: As to why there were no actual records kept of the battle is maybe because Hobbits were never a warlike people
Eonwe Valar: It was the last battle at Fornost against the Witch-King,
and they won, so a good number of people had to have made it out.
AriehnV: and also they didnt have a real cling to keeping records straight apart from family history of course
AriehnV: that is genealogy
Fladrifv has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Well, this is something the Hobbits thought it important to keep known :}
Sarujil: i remember pippin saying something to fangorn about how the
hobbits always seem to get left out of the old songs and tales. maybe
men didnt deem them significant enough to write down
Eonwe Valar: That's a possibility.
AriehnV: i guess froj
VardaValar1: Anc has a very good point
VardaValar1: and Anc is tanking some big nasties as he types :-)
AriehnV: from the bits and pieces handed down from generation to generation in the big familiies some sort of tradition was kept
Eonwe Valar: It doesn't seem the Hobbits sent anyone to help defend Fornost in the first place, though,.. or did they?
Sarujil: why do you say that?
Eonwe Valar: It doesn't mention anyone being sent in the Prologue. Any
citations saying they did elsewhere? Any reason to believe they did?
AriehnV: *to the last battle at Fornost with the Witch - Lord of Angmar
they sent some bowmen to the aid of the king , or so they maintained,
though no tales of Men record it.*
Eonwe Valar: That's the last battle. I'm referring to the battle at which Fornost was lost to begin with.
Eonwe Valar: Well wwwwww to you too :}
Sarujil: so.... was it lost before the last battle?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that's why Arvedui had to flee.
Eonwe Valar: Gondor had its own problems and could send no help. The Elves apparently had their own issues as well.
Sarujil: so who fought the last battle then? sorry my memory is a little fuzzy and i dont have enough hands to check the books
ArPharazonV: maybe the Men at the last battle saw the hobbits as little
orcs, and shot them before they could explain their presence...
Eonwe Valar: Flipping to Appendix A for reference.
ArPharazonV: after they realised it were their allies, they thought...
let's not mention this to anyone, as far as we're concerned, they never
Eonwe Valar: Here's somethign that relates to hobbits, so I'll throw it in as an aside:
Eonwe Valar: "It is said that Angmar was for a time subdied by the
Elvenfolk coming from Lindon; and from Rivendell, for Elrond brought
help out of the Mountains out of Lorien.
Eonwe Valar: It was at this time that the Stoors that had dwelt in the
Angle (between Hoarwell and Loudwater) fled west and south, because of
the wars, and the dread of Angmar, and because the land and clime of
Eriador, especially in the east,
Eonwe Valar: worsened and became unfriendly. Some returned to
Wilderland, and dwelt beside the Gladden, becoming a riverside people
Eonwe Valar: ok, now fastforwarding to Arvedui's days..
Eonwe Valar: Well, not quite all the way there. Hobbits "suffered
greatly" from the plague that came during the days of Argeleb II.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, now here we are at Arvedui's reign.
Eonwe Valar: TA 1974
VardaValar1: This could be a good article.
Eonwe Valar: Angmar attacked Arthedain before the end of winter.
AriehnV: the power of Angmar arose again and the witch king came upon Arvedui before the end of the winter
Sarujil: it seems to me from the appendix that arvedui was driven out
of fornost when it fell to the witch king, and never returned. after
that the north kingdom ended
Eonwe Valar: He captured Fornost, and "drove most of the remaining Dunedain over the Lune."
VardaValar1: All those bits like "most" are interesting.
Sarujil: so there was no battle at fornost after arvedui was driven
away, not that the hobbits could have sent aid to the king for anyway
AriehnV: for a while Arvedui was hiding for a while in old dwarf -
mines near the far end of the mountains, but he was driven out at last
by hunger, to seek the help of the Lossoch , the snow-men of Forochel
Eonwe Valar: Aha! here we go
Eonwe Valar: Next page, Phar for Hobbit contributions :}
ArPharazonV: well, it's getting late here, I should be off to bed
Eonwe Valar: "The Shire-folk survived, though war swept over them and most went into hiding.
AriehnV: to the help of the king the hobbits sent some archers which never returned
ArPharazonV: I can't be saving the rest of the conversation, so I hope someone does *looks at Eonwe*
Eonwe Valar: To the help fo the king they sent some archers who never returned.;
Eonwe Valar: and others went also to the battle in which Angmar was overthrown.
AriehnV: hehe beat ye this time :-)
Eonwe Valar: (of which more is said in the Annals of the South).
Eonwe Valar: "
Eonwe Valar: I've got it covered, Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: So, Hobbits went to the fall of Fornost and to its recapture.
ArPharazonV: so it would seem
ArPharazonV: but those at its fall never came back
Eonwe Valar: Aye
ArPharazonV: arvedui and the dunedain were driven out, but the hobbits
died... guess when they *do* fight, they don't retreat very easily
Eonwe Valar: I think we can see that aspectin Sam easily :}
AriehnV: ayeTHE COURA
Eonwe Valar: *aspect in
VardaValar1: Frodo wouldn't quit. His friends stuck to him no matter what.
AriehnV: ge of the fhobbts is hard to awake but once it is roused they are fighters to recken with
VardaValar1: Pippin and Merry
Sarujil: so, the retaking of fornost was in 4th age?
AriehnV: ((sorry for the hiroglyphs but had a thick book under the elbow while typing))
Eonwe Valar: No, third age
ArPharazonV: ehr, I think fornost was pretty much retaken after the last battle at which the Witchking was defeated
VardaValar1: Third Age is the time of the War of the Ring
Sarujil: sigh im confuzzled
Eonwe Valar: The next year in fact,
ArPharazonV: but they didn't come back to live there until the fourth age
ArPharazonV: too few people left, I guess, and too many bad memories
Eonwe Valar: TA 1974 during the winter, it fell. TA 1975 Eanur, the
last king of GOndor, came up with a mighty fleet to strike back at
Eonwe Valar: *Earnur
Sarujil: it doesnt say anything about that in my book :-( i think its defective
Eonwe Valar: This is in the Appendices.
Eonwe Valar: Appendix A right now.
ArPharazonV: the north annals indeed stop before the last battle, indeed, but the south annals tell more of the story
Eonwe Valar: "But when Earnur came to the Grey Havens there was joy and
great wonder among both Elves and Men. So great in draught and so many
were his ships that they could scarecely find harbourage,
ArPharazonV: the transcript is sent
ArPharazonV: and now I shall retire to my cave...
AriehnV: rest well , noble one :-)
Eonwe Valar: though both the Harlond and the Forlond also were filled;
and from them descended an army of power, with munition and provision
for a war of great kings.
Eonwe Valar: Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a small sending-force of the whole might of Gondor.
Sarujil: ok so i think i got it now
ArPharazonV: be sure to save this, Eonwe, I want to read ;-)
Sarujil: the last battle you refer to is this one that earnur fought
Eonwe Valar: Most of all, the horses were praises, for many of them
came from the Vales of Anduin, and with them were riders tall and fair,
and proud princes of Rhovanion."
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Phar and will do :}
Sarujil: but since the mention of hobbits going to the aid of the king
was listed in the north kingdom section, but the south annals dont
specifically mention hobbits
Sarujil: sorry, worded clumsily, but im writing while i fight a fire orc
Eonwe Valar: Aye, no specific mention of hobbits.
Eonwe Valar: Take care Phar :}
AriehnV: Namarie :-)
ArPharazonV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: It says Cirdan summoned everyone who would come to him out
of Lindon and Arnor, so that probably brought in the second round of
Hobbits who went to the fall of Angmar.
AriehnV: it is hard to get out of this .. it is very interesting ...
but i dont want to disturb Bruce in deep slumber by coming up in an
AriehnV: and i do have to work unfortunately if late but ..
Eonwe Valar: I think we've covered the main points of Hobbit contributions to Arnor at this point.
Eonwe Valar: Unless someone would like to add something?
Eonwe Valar: Ok, then..
Sarujil: ok so, in the prologue, which is the specific mention of the
hobbits who went to war but werent recorded, it says the last battle at
fornost with the witch king of angmar.
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Sarujil: this isnt the same 'last battle' that earnur fought
Eonwe Valar: It is.
Sarujil: it cant be, the battle that earnur fought was outside of carn dum, not at fornost
Eonwe Valar: Earnur was sent with a small force to aid Arnor, but was
too late. When he arrived, Cirdan gathered everyone out of the North
that he could, and the army marched on Fornost to roust the Witch-King.
Eonwe Valar: The Witch-King fled towards Carn Dum, but was cut off by a contingent out of Rivendell.
AriehnV: so they would have been in two different contingents
Sarujil: they cant fight the witch king in two places at once :-)
AriehnV: if i see things right the witch king was caught in a fork movement
Sarujil: theres one other thing the prologue states that makes me think
the hobbits who were not recorded were at arvedui's battle:
Eonwe Valar: They fought the forces of the Witch-King at Fornost. The
Witch-King was at Fornost. When the Witch-King saw the battle going
badly, he retreated towards Angmar.
AriehnV: one troupe was follwing him while the other one came from the direction he was fleeing
Sarujil: it says that after that last battle at fornost, the north
kingdom ended. the north kingdom officially ended with the loss of
arvedui, before earnur came up form the south
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, it was both Gondor's cavalry and a force up out of Rivendell that stopped the retreat of Angmar.
AriehnV: i see Ancs point
AriehnV: if the hobbits went to Fornost but never returned .. because Fornofst fell
Eonwe Valar: Aye
AriehnV: but Arvedui hid in the hills and led a guerilla war more or less
AriehnV: against angmar right?
Sarujil: for a little while, before he went to forochel
Eonwe Valar: It doesn't say none returned in the Prologue though, it
says none returned in the Appendix, where it specifies those who went
to the defense of Fornost.
AriehnV: then Earnur came from the south and joined his soldiers with fighters from rivendell
Eonwe Valar: The Hobbits might've just lumped the two groups together as "We sent archers."
AriehnV: and they drove him seemingly off for a while
Sarujil: well at the battle where the witch king was defeated, it wouldnt have been the defense of fornost
AriehnV: aye i agree
Eonwe Valar: Ok, back to Prologue.
Eonwe Valar: "To the last battle at Fornost with the Witch-King,...But in that war the North Kingdom ended."
Sarujil: in the timeline it says north kingdom ended in 1974, earnur arrives in eriador in 1975
AriehnV: by which time the remains of the hobbit archers were already falling to dust :-(
AriehnV: unless some of the archers had stayed behind in rivendell and
coming up with that troupe from there and Earnur but were forgotten to
be mentioned in the records
AriehnV: even though i cant actually imagine that an already very small
contingent would be devided again unless there were some wounded which
need to rest .. which is a possibility after a dangerous journey
Eonwe Valar: It also says "After Avedui the North Kingdom ended." in
the Appendix, but I think the point is that Hobbits sent Archers to the
Sarujil: it seems like the hobbits went to both battles of fornost, but
the men/elves didnt record them being there at either one
Sarujil: the reason that they werent recorded at the first last battle
is likely because fornost fell, and the hobbits either died there or
fled with arvedui to the north and were lost with him in the ice bay
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Ancalagon. The Appendix section on Arnor states
that.Hobbits went to both the defense of Fornost and to the last battle
against the Witch-King.
Sarujil: so the question is, why werent the hobbits recorded as being present in the second last battle?
AriehnV: the answer is 42 :-)
AriehnV: so basically wrong question lol but i am getting silly which
is pointing to the fact that i should retreat honorably while i can
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
AriehnV: you too :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
Sarujil: quite likely no hobbits were present at the battle with the
witch king in angmar, when he tried to flee to carn dum. hobbit cavalry
would not have been able to keep up, like why merry wouldnt accompany
the rohirrim to gondor
Sarujil: why merry couldnt, wasnt allowed to
Eonwe Valar: Archers would have a keen eye though, and archers are a standard part of armies of the day.
Eonwe Valar: It says they sent archers to both fights.
Sarujil: thats true, but the reason the witch king didnt reach carn dum
is because gondorian cavalry overtook him. not likely there were
hobbits in that cavalry
Eonwe Valar: Once the Witch-King retreated from Fornost, it would be a matter for infantry and cavalry.
Sarujil: yeah but like you said, there was also a battle at fornost, where the cavalry wouldnt have been as useful
Eonwe Valar: Ok, to make sure we're on the same page here, let me recap.
Sarujil: seems most likely to me that the hobbits were at fornost both times, never at carn dum :-)
arwenv1 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: It doesn't say they were :}
Sarujil: im just trying to establish history :-)
Eonwe Valar: And as far as I can tell, neitehr did I :}
Sarujil: maybe the hobbits died at fornost 2nd time too, and during the
whole 'hey everybody lets go chase down witch-king' they never received
a proper burial or anything
Eonwe Valar: Ok, there was a battle in the winter of 1974 in which
Fornost fell to Angmar. Hobbits were there, but never returned to the
Eonwe Valar: Earnur led a force of Gondor and the remaning forces of
Arnor and Lindon in 1975 to retake Fornost. hobbits joined this fight
too, presumably as archers since that's what the Appendix suggests.
Eonwe Valar: The appendix pointed out that the first group never
returned, but the last of mentioning the same thing the section time
seems to indicate there were Hobbit survivors the second time around
(which would be another good sign of victo
Eonwe Valar: *ry if the Hobbits survived, heh)
Sarujil: if the hobbits survived it seems likely they would have
attended the victory celebrations. and you know how memorable hobbits
are at those things...
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Maybe they just went on home after elevensies? :}
Sarujil: maybe they went on home because the men and elves didnt have elevensies...
Sarujil: they were hungry! didnt stick around to be counted !!
Eonwe Valar: Beregond at first sight thought Pippin was a human
child.The same may have been thought by thetypcial Arnorian soldier.
Sarujil: aha we have solved the mystery
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Sarujil: hobbits dont usually get above 4 feet ... seems a little short even for a really young soldier
Sarujil: i think the food idea is better
Eonwe Valar: Archers wouldn't be in so much danger as infantry, and the
standard for soldiers in such times tends to be "anyone who can pick up
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves aren't much taller.
Eonwe Valar: Or maybe they thought they were pukel-men, heh.
Sarujil: we dont really know if there was a battle at fornost going on at the same time as carn dum
Eonwe Valar: Ghan-buri-Ghan's people tend to be short.
Eonwe Valar: The carn dum battle was a result of the battle at Fornost.
Eonwe Valar: And it actually says that the Witch King never actually
made it as far as Carn Dum, so at best he was within sight of it.
Sarujil: well i call it the battle at carn dum, not in carn dum :-)
Eonwe Valar: Depending on distance from Fornost to Carn Dum, he might
not even have made it within sight, assuming the Witch-King also had
infantry in the group he was retreating with.
Sarujil: i cant really refer to the books at this moment...
VardaValar1: We are really busy in raid sorry
Eonwe Valar: hehe. I've supplied as many quotes as I could in the discussion. :}
VardaValar1: You did great :-)
Sarujil: cant really take the time to scroll up either hehe
VardaValar1: Anc is being a wonderful tank too :-)
Eonwe Valar: NP :}
Sarujil: im barely even doing anything at all :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, I'm going to let you two focus completely over there :} I need to turn my attention elsewhere as well.
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*
Eonwe Valar: After-meeting :}
VardaValar1: Oh, an After-meeting!
VardaValar1: I happen to be dead atm :-)
VardaValar1: Please save, I would really like to go back over this stuff, looked intriguing.