Valar Guild

April 27, 2008 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (11)
    ArPharazonV, arwenv1, Eonwe Valar (presiding), fladrifv, Gil-galad-(V)/Xseanzee disco, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet, GwaihirValar, Lungorthin-(Valar)/sauronjag, Menelvagor Valar, Pallando Valar/Oessala/OrodrethV, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    Web help: more editors and writers needed.
    Other games: request for others to join in
    Continued with the topic of LotR characters whose pride brought them down.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
fladrifv has entered the room.
fladrifv has left the room.
arwenv1 has entered the room.
sauronjag has entered the room.
sauronjag: hi :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Aiya all
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
Star of Phaet: Aiya folks :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Gilraen :-)
Xseanzee disco: heyyy
Menelvagor Valar: Hey Gil-Galad :-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: aiya Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: Give me a moment and we'll go ahead and begin the meeting.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
GwaihirValar: hey folks
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Varda! :-)
VardaValar1: Good to see you all. Please pardon my tardiness by your sweet graciousness. :-)
VardaValar1: Any having trouble with AIM?
Menelvagor Valar: Not that I know.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda :}
Eonwe Valar: It seems my invitations to Gwaihir and one other failed.
Pallando Valar has entered the room.
Oessala has entered the room.
OrodrethV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: I had a lot of invitations failing. : (
VardaValar1: Aiya Pallando and doppelgangers. : )
Pallando Valar: Aiya, just got back from a mini boot camp, getting squared away.
ArPharazonV: what version you on now, Varda?
VardaValar1: Same, highest this comp can go.
Eonwe Valar: One of these days I'll remember to try to upgrade before the meeting, heh.
ArPharazonV: I plan to hang on to this one until it dies *nod*
ArPharazonV: I mean, what're the odds it'll be blocked during meeting time, hm? ;-)
VardaValar1: on a Sunday, too.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's go ahead and begin.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership: Finals coming up soon, and for some of us it'll be our final finals :}
VardaValar1: Yay for the upcoming Graduates!
Eonwe Valar: I would be one of them, lucky me :}
GwaihirValar: grats
VardaValar1: Are you considering Master's?
Eonwe Valar: Not at this time. I think I should get out there and make some money/pay back loans first :} After that, we'll see.
GwaihirValar has left the room.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
GwaihirValar: Okay, I'm an idiot ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Welcome back Gwaihir :}
GwaihirValar: Was mid-typing... and because ya know, I play wow and wc3.... I pushed escape to clear out what I'd typed lawl
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: It worked. ; )
GwaihirValar: fair enough lol
VardaValar1: You're not the only one who pulls that. : )
GwaihirValar: I'll only be here for anothe 10 or so minutes, gotta go out shopping... but I'm here ;-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
GwaihirValar: unfortunately groceries don't buy themselves
GwaihirValar: /sigh
Eonwe Valar: Well have fun when you go :}
Eonwe Valar: Don't leave your coupons on the table and all that :}
ArPharazonV: you could buy them online, and stay here!
Pallando Valar: My final finals too, as it happens.
VardaValar1: *tries to check the freshness of that online fruit*
GwaihirValar: Ya, but then I get bottom of the barrel for fruits, meats, etc.
Eonwe Valar: Yeah, groceries are something I'd rather pick myself. no guarantee the person picking your groceries is looking out for you otherwise.
Eonwe Valar: Or pick in person, rather.
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
Menelvagor Valar: A bit of an update, aye.
Eonwe Valar: GO ahead.
Menelvagor Valar: Well, as you know I am planning a trip to the US coming summer.
Menelvagor Valar: And I will be visiting with quite a few people while I am around :-)
GwaihirValar: Scary ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: I'll be stopping by Varda and Eonwe of course, might try to stop by Arwen as well while I am in the vicinity, but have yet to talk to her about that :-)
VardaValar1: *plumps up the couch*
Pallando Valar: Come swing by San Diego, not that I'll be able to say hi por anything..
VardaValar1: She's on AIM right now, not sure if she's "live".
Menelvagor Valar: hopefully she can grab a few minutes when wiping *grin*
Menelvagor Valar: I'll drop by Sauronjag or Lungorthin as his name is in Guild :-)
VardaValar1: As priest, she tends not to allow such things. : )
Menelvagor Valar: hihi.
Menelvagor Valar: I've spent a lot of time healing and wiping when I myself went down *grin*
Menelvagor Valar: I'll also venture across the border into Canada, though I am not sure Gilraen has informed Gwaihir yet, though I suppose she has *grin*
VardaValar1: Gwaihir, hear that!?
Menelvagor Valar: And Pallando, I think that my schedule will be quite filled as it is now :-)
Pallando Valar: When will you be over?
Menelvagor Valar: The entirety of july.
GwaihirValar: Of course she's told me hehe
Pallando Valar: That'd be..marskmanship, swim, and prep for the crucible.
Pallando Valar: Yeah, I'd be kinda busy and tired anyways. :p
GwaihirValar: anyways
GwaihirValar: its time for me to be going now
Menelvagor Valar: I'll probably have melted by the time I return.
GwaihirValar: faretheewell good folks, I'll remain here lurking
Pallando Valar: Now, if you came in august, I'de be able to see you after graduation.. :-)
GwaihirValar: take care :-)
VardaValar1: Namarie, Eagle : )
Menelvagor Valar: I'm used to the sea climate over here in Holland, and it's rather temperate.
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie Gwai.
ArPharazonV: Namarie Gwai!
Menelvagor Valar: and I think it gets quite unbearably hot in the summer here.
VardaValar1: Texas in summertime is not especially temperate.
Pallando Valar: I'm gonna be running every day, all dy, for three months in 80+F weather.
Menelvagor Valar: And my plan is to spend 2 weeks in Florida and about a week in Texas besides.
sauronjag: understatement of the year~
Pallando Valar: You think you're gonna melt. I'm from minnesnowta.
Menelvagor Valar: So yes, I do gather that when I get back here in Holland, I'll spend a week or two in the fridge to cool down *grin*
Pallando Valar: It SNOWED here over the weekend. Yes, in the second-to-last week of APRIL.
Menelvagor Valar: does here in Holland sometimes.
VardaValar1: Snow? I saw that on LotRO today.
Menelvagor Valar: But that's it from me :-)
VardaValar1: Canada should help you cool off.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Menel. And don't forget the sun screen :}
Pallando Valar: Normally I don't mind, but we didn't to do a ton of stuff over the weekend cause of it. Oh well.
Menelvagor Valar: Well, I have heard from another friend of mine in Canada that it can get quite hot there during the summer as well :-)
ArPharazonV: well, that's because in the Netherlands we're at sea, isn't it?
Eonwe Valar: If that's it for Member News, let's move to Web News:
ArPharazonV: the sea tends to temper the climate somewhat, while in countries like Canada the climate can be a little.. continental
Menelvagor Valar: plus we're at 52 degrees lattitude (I think)
ArPharazonV: true, but still
Menelvagor Valar: Southern US is more like 30'ish.
ArPharazonV: in places like Canada it can be colder than the NL in the winter and warmer in the summer, in the same regions..
ArPharazonV: someone, try inviting Fladrif, mine fails
VardaValar1: ok
Eonwe Valar: I can't send an invite to Fladrif.
ArPharazonV: *nod* same
VardaValar1: Me either
Pallando Valar: Yeah, minnesota is -20 winters, 100 summers. (F), too lavy to convert to C. :p
ArPharazonV: something about his software not accepting invites or something
Eonwe Valar: Yeah.
VardaValar1: Bet he upgraded.
ArPharazonV: oh, he switched to another client now
Menelvagor Valar: I invited him earlier, he got in, and immediately dropped out.
fladrifv has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya Flad
fladrifv: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Yay! You made it! What happened?
fladrifv: my client crashed, now Im back to the good old pidgin, kopete didnt work too well
OrodrethV: pidgin woot
Eonwe Valar: Ok guys, let's get back to the meeting.
Eonwe Valar: Varda has some member news.
VardaValar1: About like y'alls member news. : )
VardaValar1: The family's main gaming comp was "repaired", then
VardaValar1: went back to Blue Screen of Death, then "repaired", then BSoD today.
VardaValar1: It's one of those intermittent bugs, hard to pin.
VardaValar1: We'll be around as we can. Five on one gaming comp for now. : )
VardaValar1: Sauron and Eowyn will be on their own tonight, though.
VardaValar1: That's it.
sauronjag: haha, sounds like a gaming center
Eonwe Valar: Sorry to hear about your computer, Varda.
VardaValar1: It is, and a webwork center. : )
VardaValar1: We get guests sometimes too that play.
VardaValar1: Some bring their own comps. : )

Eonwe Valar: Web news:
Eonwe Valar: As a rarity, you have a day today with no web news :}
arwenv1: hehe
VardaValar1: My fault, not putting it up fast enough. Sorry folks.
Eonwe Valar: Stuff in the works, but nothing ready to be put up or announced.

Eonwe Valar: Gaming News:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: I've seen several people on in the moments I've been on, including Sauron, Elwing, Eowyn, Fangorn, Bilbo.
Eonwe Valar: I managed to get Exalted with the Shattered Sun Offensive this week, and since I had nothing better to do with 1000 gold at the time, I donated it to them and became Auros of the Shattered Sun.
VardaValar1: (I've been on too, not when Eonwe was though.)
VardaValar1: Wow, Auros!
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, I've seen Arwen on as well.
ArPharazonV: oh, grats
ArPharazonV: ....we were at 99% last I heard, so we might be there right now...
Eonwe Valar: I believe Lothar's still working on the ALchemy Lab.
ArPharazonV: *shrugs* I'll donate the gold tomorrow
Eonwe Valar: The monument was up pretty quickly.
ArPharazonV: we haven't even started on the lab yet... or maybe we have, I can't tell now :-)
ArPharazonV: I'm sure it was... with so many exalted people paying 1000g, it's bound to go quite fast, if they go by the system of 1000g being worth 100 10g donations ;-)
Eonwe Valar: If you've done the quest "Know Your Roots," you're working on the lab.
ArPharazonV: no, no
ArPharazonV: we were at 99% when I left, and that was about... 3-4 hours ago?
ArPharazonV: 99% to take the harbor, that is
Eonwe Valar: Ah, ok.
ArPharazonV: so we *could* be in the next phase now
ArPharazonV: we've been going at about 3-4% for the last week, so it's possible
ArPharazonV: Sunday evenings always tend to the busiest anyway
Eonwe Valar: Uldaman:
Eonwe Valar: We've had some activity there, from Varda and family.
VardaValar1: and Elwing. : )
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, and Elwing.
VardaValar1: Theodwyn has been around too, but I keep missing her.
Eonwe Valar: Argent Dawn:
Eonwe Valar: Anything to report, Arien?
Menelvagor Valar: I do not think Arien is here Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: Bah, Arien isn';t here, is she?
Eonwe Valar: My apologies, I should read the role closer.
Eonwe Valar: Phar, anything?
Eonwe Valar: role = roll
ArPharazonV: ehr... thinking, not that I know of... in fact, Arien may be spreading her wings to other servers, I don't think she likes AD much
VardaValar1: Arien has us spoiled by being such a regular. : )
ArPharazonV: the behavior, general grouping, basically the AD attitude... I too think it's been going downhill, but I wouldn't know why it would be different on other servers
ArPharazonV: but apparently she knows more, she already has friends on other servers I think
ArPharazonV: so she and Helm might be migrating.. probably not chars, but their activities anyway.. I think she mentioned a server name but can't recall it
ArPharazonV: anyway, you'll just have to ask her that yourselves if she's here next week
VardaValar1: The Horde one?
ArPharazonV: not sure, wracking my brain but it's not helping
sauronjag: side-note: does anyone have horde on Sargeras?
Eonwe Valar: Not I. Our Horde Server is Uldaman, so that's where I am if I play Horde at all generally.
VardaValar1: She is on Lightbringer.
VardaValar1: Argent Dawn is the European Alliance server, Lothar is the one for the Americas, and Uldaman server is for Horde in the Americas.
ArPharazonV: the Americas...
ArPharazonV: that sounds so... Latin
ArPharazonV: not Italy-Latin, but Spanish Latin, that is
VardaValar1: Including North and South American continents.
ArPharazonV: *nod*
VardaValar1: Hey, I live on the border. : )
ArPharazonV: still, the word has a certain ring to it
VardaValar1: Includes Canada saying it that way also.
VardaValar1: Back to Web,
Eonwe Valar: Well as I recall, the term "America" is a latinized version of the name "Amerigo", from "Amerigo Vespucci"
VardaValar1: does anyone here have some training in English, as in able to do some editing?
VardaValar1: Aye, Italian.
ArPharazonV: true
ArPharazonV: don't mind me, just being impulsive in stating my thoughts
ArPharazonV: should go to bed soon
VardaValar1: Glad to have someone who is active. : )
VardaValar1: So, no English majors, minors, or writing nuts in the room?
VardaValar1: okie dokie.
Menelvagor Valar: Uhm...
Menelvagor Valar: I am currently still studying English, so I guess that applies to me :-)
VardaValar1: Thank, but you don't sound very available. : )
Star of Phaet: what is it for, Varda?
Menelvagor Valar: I am quite available :-)
VardaValar1: I am falling behind on working on the various aspects of the Tolkien Site.
Menelvagor Valar: just in july I will be somewhat unavailable... ish :-)
VardaValar1: It takes some careful editing work.
Menelvagor Valar: I'd be happy to take some load of your shoulders.
Eonwe Valar: Studying English as just to study it, or towards a degree, out of curiosity?
Menelvagor Valar: towards bachelor degree.
VardaValar1: English as your Bachelor's?
Menelvagor Valar: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: Though I must admit I have fallen behind quite a bit this year.
Menelvagor Valar: but I do have my propedeuse from college in an English teacher's degree, which if fully completed counts as the same as a bachelor's degree in university.
VardaValar1: I'll be talking in side windows so as not to slow down the meeting any more.
Eonwe Valar: Ok
Menelvagor Valar: okidoke.
Eonwe Valar: Let's carry on then.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, now we get to LotRO... :}
VardaValar1: ok : )
VardaValar1: LotRO has just had a giant expansion, free.
VardaValar1: Added the Forochel region, fishing, and much more fun stuff.
VardaValar1: Also
VardaValar1: since it is the one year anniversary,
ArPharazonV: a year already, eh
VardaValar1: the $199 lifetime membership is again being offered.
VardaValar1: Grab it whilst you can. : )
Menelvagor Valar: I have :-)
VardaValar1: Yay!
VardaValar1: We have groups getting together that are and have been at the top of the level cap and we can do quite a bit. : )
VardaValar1: End report.
Menelvagor Valar: luckily I was still in my one-month free period, so I could change it and save 100 bucks in the process.
ArPharazonV: very Dutch!
Menelvagor Valar: I do not think anyone in the world would turn away from saving 100 bucks Phar.
Menelvagor Valar: Dutch influence reaches far I suppose *grin*
ArPharazonV: still, we're known for it :-)
Eonwe Valar: I'm saving myself alot of money for having got the Founders deal :} I never have to pay for monthly fees again for LotRO :}
Eonwe Valar: If the game goes 5+ years, I'll have saved oodles :}
Menelvagor Valar: founder's deal takes around 16 or so months to pay itself back.
Eonwe Valar: if you're comparing to the $9.99 founders deal, aye.
Menelvagor Valar: nope, normal.
Eonwe Valar: The point for me is that it's a fee I don't pay.
Menelvagor Valar: founder's monthly deal comes to around 20 months.
Menelvagor Valar: Very true :-)
Eonwe Valar: I'm not going to pick apart how long it takes to have actually meant anything, because to me it meant no further fees right from the start.
Menelvagor Valar: I do that, comes with being me :P
Eonwe Valar: And seeing as I don't always have time to play LotRO, I'm not paying a fee for a game I don't get to play alot.
ArPharazonV: maybe it's a Dutch streak, Menel :-)
Eonwe Valar: Eh, I've seen alot of people on the LotRO forums do it. So much so that it got annoying seeing it after a while. Pardon.
Eonwe Valar: Eh, the point is that at some point it saves money :}
ArPharazonV: fair enough :-)
Eonwe Valar: Ther eare some nice changes in the patch, like some quest log changes that would be nice for WoW :}
Eonwe Valar: You can tell how far your groupmates are on a quest.
VardaValar1: True. The quest log has been worked over, very nice as you get used to it.
ArPharazonV: anyway, I'll be logging in a few mins, have to get up early... but the next 2 meetings I'll be able to stay longer as mondays will be off for various holidays
VardaValar1: Thanks for coming!
Eonwe Valar: Cool and sleep well Phar :}
ArPharazonV: I could list the games I've been playing besides WoW if you want, it wasn't just Starcraft ;-)
Eonwe Valar: We're almost to that part.
Eonwe Valar: In fact, I think we've covered LotRO.
ArPharazonV: I know, but I wasn't sure how long the lotro part was going to go on, and I have to leave soon, so I thought I'd mention it... not to rush you or anything, but... well, just so you know
Eonwe Valar: Anyone play anything besides WoW or LotRO?
ArPharazonV: ...Yes! What a surprise!
Eonwe Valar: (There you go Phar :})
ArPharazonV: I've been very ambitious this week and I plan to continue this until I'm away for Spain, and then some more when I come back
ArPharazonV: playing through 3 games at once, or at least their campaigns
ArPharazonV: I rotate them, switching every time I finish a scenario, so I can play through and still get some variation
ArPharazonV: so currently I'm in the middle of the Protoss campaign in Starcraft: Brood War, the Alpha campaign of Warzone 2100, and the Tha'roon campaign of War Wind
ArPharazonV: all 3 RTSes, but it's still getting used to each game again over and over :-)
ArPharazonV: all 3 having different styles of RTS as well, can get quite confusing
ArPharazonV: but I do my best!
ArPharazonV: by the time I'm done I should have Starcraft and Warzone finished, and three quarters along War Wind... after that I'll probably go War Wind 2, and then... only time can tell
ArPharazonV: I've even been contemplating poking my head back into Guildwars, though I'm like... 3 expansions behind
ArPharazonV: and, of course, if anyone wants to join me in *any* of these games, or Warcraft 3, or something else I may have, for multiplayer...
ArPharazonV: just need to contact me
ArPharazonV: I'm in AIM and MSN pretty much.. all the time
ArPharazonV: and with that I shall end my report, gonna save and send transcript
ArPharazonV: *gets off the floor*
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Phar.
Eonwe Valar: If there's nothing else for gaming, we can move to Tolkien. Send me topics now.
ArPharazonV: saved
ArPharazonV: and sent!
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Phar.
ArPharazonV: Namarie all, have fun with Tolkien, and be sure to let me read it when it's done :-)
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well.
fladrifv: namarie
Menelvagor Valar: I have played another game this week *smile*
Eonwe Valar: Which game would that be?
Menelvagor Valar: Mass Effect on Xbox 360.
Eonwe Valar: Ah
Eonwe Valar: Any good?
Menelvagor Valar: Sure is.
Menelvagor Valar: It's an RPG FPS type.
ArPharazonV has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: The game takes place in a vast universe in which you do your missions, there is 1 main mission, with several sub-branches and quite a few secondary missions.
Menelvagor Valar: Combat changes between vehicular combat and bird's flight view fps.
Menelvagor Valar: fps = first person shooter for future and past reference btw.
Menelvagor Valar: In between missions there is a lot of interaction with various denizens of the universe and there's generally 3 ways one can respond.
Menelvagor Valar: As a renegade, pretty much harsh and evil like, neutral and goody two shoes.
Menelvagor Valar: It is however completely possible to act evilly in one conversation and perfectly civil in the next.
Menelvagor Valar: This will not affect your light / dark side "score" other than that one or the other will go up.
Menelvagor Valar: Most generally the choices you make will not have a very significant impact on game-play, aside from a few conversations in the main storyline.
Menelvagor Valar: Characters can be set up as the "tank" type, "engineer" type and "biotic (mentalist)" type or anything anywhere in between.
Menelvagor Valar: You always have a squad of 2 other people with you, who all have their own personalities, and you can get to know them better by talking to them after storyline missions.
Menelvagor Valar: This will also increase your general knowledge, which is extensive and includes many social and technological features which has no impact on the game other than to give you some further insight into the workings of the universe.
Menelvagor Valar: And that's pretty much it.
Eonwe Valar: Sounds Interesting.
Menelvagor Valar: In a nutshell anyways :-)
Eonwe Valar: Hehe
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Menel.
Eonwe Valar: Ok guys, you get my topic :}
Menelvagor Valar: Also, after completing the game, you can go again with the same character, do things different than before, etc. etc.
Eonwe Valar: Is that a successive replay on the same saved game, or a new saved game?
Menelvagor Valar: same saved game.
Menelvagor Valar: So you continue with all your skills and equipment (whether equipped or in your general storage) you have at the end of your first run-through.
Eonwe Valar: Ok. Ninja Gaiden did that on Original XBox and I enjoyed that aspect, since I got to get weapons like the Dark Dragon Blade at the start to actually use in the new round.
Eonwe Valar: Well, not quite that though.
Eonwe Valar: I had to refind all my health, but I got to keep my scarabs, so I only needed to grab the few I missed.
Eonwe Valar: Sounds like an interesting game.
Eonwe Valar: Feel free to write up an review for the Games Page :}
Eonwe Valar: an = a
Menelvagor Valar: Well, with a successful play, you also unlock a greater difficulty and if you replay the entire game on that difficulty, you can unlock an even worse one :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I'll try, but no promises.
Eonwe Valar: Sounds like Ninja Gaiden there too :} Ninja Gaiden is notorius for being tough, heh :}
Menelvagor Valar: Well, I haven't really found it all that tough after hitting lvl 50.
Eonwe Valar: Increasing difficulty is a good idea for replayability in console games in my opinion.
Menelvagor Valar: but then again, I do play as Soldier, so pretty much I go in hard and fast, my assault rifle blazing.
Eonwe Valar: hehe

Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's get to Tolkien. Everyone still here, say "I love Elves." :}
Eonwe Valar: Or we could stick with "Aye." :}
VardaValar1: I love Elves, aye!
Menelvagor Valar: I have a splitting headache.
Menelvagor Valar: I still love Elves though.
Eonwe Valar: Everyone else is sleeping?
Eonwe Valar: *clangs cymbals together*
Menelvagor Valar: auch!
Eonwe Valar: Oh well, we still end up with my topic.
Eonwe Valar: last week we discussed people with whom pride was a problem, but we never got to discuss how it brought them down.
Eonwe Valar: People mentioend were:
Eonwe Valar: Boromir, Denethor, Sauron, and Bilbo.
Menelvagor Valar: Pride leads to animosity, animosity leads to sharp axes, sharp axes leads to detached heads (aka headaches), headaches (or detached heads!) leads to downfalls.
Eonwe Valar: Saruman was also mentioned.
Eonwe Valar: So, how did pride bring these people's downfall?
Eonwe Valar: I dare someone to figure out how pride brought about Bilbo's downfall :}
Menelvagor Valar: I would say that depends on your definition of downfall.
Menelvagor Valar: I don't think Bilbo actually went down.
Menelvagor Valar: Though he did land himself into some very irksome situations.
VardaValar1: Bilbo really didn't know what he had. Gollum was probably the same way but then he did learn and that it was trying to return to Sauron.
Eonwe Valar: "downfall: n. 1. a sudden fall to a lower position or standing. 2. something causing this." Think that covers it :}
Menelvagor Valar: I don't think that covers any of Bilbo's nettlesome situations.
Menelvagor Valar: He did get into a pickle after exiting the Misty Mountains, but that was behavior induced by the Ring.
Eonwe Valar: I think we agreed last week Bilbo was an exception rather than the rule, but I thought I'd give the chance for someone to try and fit him in anyway :}
Menelvagor Valar: Bilbo also got himself into quite a bit of trouble by stealing the Arkenstone.
Menelvagor Valar: But that was because he reasoned it was for the better.
Menelvagor Valar: But the only part of pride which almost! led to his demise and led to the partial destruction of Esgaroth, was his name-game with Smaug.
VardaValar1: He tried to be too clever for his own safety.
Eonwe Valar: Aha, a good point. he got overconfident there.
Menelvagor Valar: but other than that, I don't quite see where Bilbo would fit in with pride and downfall.
Menelvagor Valar: or pride at all to be honest.
Eonwe Valar: Well, there's that whole part with Bilbo never connecting his longevity with the Ring,..
fladrifv: :-)
Menelvagor Valar: true.
Menelvagor Valar: but isn't that part of the Ring's influence?
Menelvagor Valar: To instill suchs thoughts in its bearers as to never connect it directly to itself?
Eonwe Valar: We he had noticed he couldn't stand to be parted from it.
Eonwe Valar: We = Well,
Menelvagor Valar: Yes, but was that out of his own mind thinking of that, or the Ring exerting such influence on him?
Eonwe Valar: I suppose there is also to consider he was a descendant of the Old Took..
Eonwe Valar: Which part, the noticing it or the fact that he couldn't stand to be parted from it?
Menelvagor Valar: The Ring, though imbued with part of Sauron's malginant will is still an inanimate object and until Gandalf's confirmation, there were very few tell-tale signs of what it was.
Menelvagor Valar: the noticing, though I just remembered that with one or other conversation with Gandalf he mentions being restless when he does not have the ring close to him.
Eonwe Valar: Noticing is notcing :}
Eonwe Valar: *noticing
Eonwe Valar: I agree with what Varda said earlier, that he didn't know what he had at the time, but after learning, you'd think he'd put two and two together.
sauronjag has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Gandalf mentions at some point that there will still be some residual effect.
Eonwe Valar: The desire for it at times and the extended life, aye.
Eonwe Valar: Not a good idea for him to ever get it back, basically.
Eonwe Valar: The Nazgul really did Frodo a favor on Weathertop. Opened his eyes to the Ring's dangers. He couldn't fall into Bilbo's "and why should I give it up at all?" after that.
Menelvagor Valar: I think the full realization came at Bruinen.
VardaValar1: He already knew by Bruinen, not thinking too clearly by then.
Menelvagor Valar: very true that.
Menelvagor Valar: afk for a few minutes. getting ready for bed. hopefully my headache will subside a bit.
VardaValar1: Hope you feel better.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, shall we discuss the others, or does anyone think they're obvious?
VardaValar1: If they are obvious, we can point them out quickly. Yay us!
Eonwe Valar: Hehe :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's start with Boromir.
Eonwe Valar: How did pride bring him down?
VardaValar1: Two-fold answer there.
VardaValar1: His father's pride in his eldest son, and his own pride both existed.
Eonwe Valar: The obvious one: He couldn't see he was falling into the Ring's trap.
VardaValar1: The father's pride also fed the son's pride. And even Faramir's looking up to him added to it.
VardaValar1: He thought Gondor was all that was really holding back the darkness, so that was pride.
VardaValar1: Since he believed that, Gondor had to be the most important thing for the free people's security.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, he didn't acknowledge contributions by Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Rivendell, The Rangers,...
VardaValar1: Gondor was starting to fall.
VardaValar1: Who? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: So he was ripe to grab a powerful weapon/defense sitting at the table by him and traveling with him.
VardaValar1: Faramir was intended to go instead, probably because he was not in that pride situation, and Gandalf had taught him the contributions of others.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
VardaValar1: Boromir might have seen some contribution from the others, but so small as to be negligible in his opinion.
VardaValar1: So he thought he knew, but did not really comprehend.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, and he wasn't thrilled about finding out the Heir of Isildur stilled lived.
VardaValar1: Right. Took what he reasonably expected to be his birthright.
VardaValar1: This gave a nice, big chink in the armor of a decent man for the One Ring to attack.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
VardaValar1: Once out from under the Ring's influence, he came back to himself quickly and realized what he had done.
Menelvagor Valar: Unlike his father though, he did have great compassion for others and showed that in the end.
VardaValar1: Aye, his father saw subjects and tools.
Menelvagor Valar: Which, considering he had a realm on the cusp of destruction, was not entirely a character flaw.
Menelvagor Valar: Plus, he was under the influence of the Palantír and thus Sauron's will as well.
Menelvagor Valar: Sauron could exert more direct influence on Denethor than the Ring could on Boromir.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, and he began using that after his wife died.
fladrifv: Namarie all
Menelvagor Valar: Of course, being men in which the Blood of Numenor still ran strong, this was no easy feat.
Eonwe Valar: Take care Fladrif :}
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie Fladrif.
VardaValar1: Fladrif, good night. : )
fladrifv: for what is left of the night :S
Menelvagor Valar: still 4 hours of night left :-)
Menelvagor Valar: But it's also apparent that with people in high places, it's all the more devastating when they are being influenced by the enemy.
fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: They have ways of influencing more lives because of their placement. True.
Menelvagor Valar: At least 3 times this happened, Denethor, by ways of the Palantir, Boromir, via the Ring and Theoden by Grima.
Menelvagor Valar: In two of those situations it was Gandalf who barely in time could hold things together.
VardaValar1: That is why the enemy attacks the minds of highly placed people, for maximum effect.
Menelvagor Valar: In Theoden's case, he was able to cure him of the curse that was laid upon him, but Denethor was either too strong willed or too much under the influence of Sauron to be brought to reason.
Menelvagor Valar: Most likely a mix of both.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye Varda.
VardaValar1: Also, Denethor was already locked into his final self-destructive path. He could not believe Gandalf's words of hope after seeing what he thought was proof against them.
Eonwe Valar: Nice how Boromir transitioned so well into Denethor :}
Eonwe Valar: Topic-wise that is.
Menelvagor Valar: That's easy for us.
Eonwe Valar: Had Denethor been willing to listen to Gandalf, aye, things may have ended differently.
Menelvagor Valar: They are closely related in this as in many other things, and us being us, we tend to move on and in deeper :-)
VardaValar1: And I am multi-tasking and can be drawn sideways easily. ; )
Menelvagor Valar: I''m off to bed.
Menelvagor Valar: I hope I can doze off and my headache won
Eonwe Valar: Sauron being able to affect people in high places certainly increased his pride.
Menelvagor Valar: 't disturb me for a few hours.
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well ;}
VardaValar1: Rest well. : )
Menelvagor Valar: highly doubtful, but thanks nonetheless.
Eonwe Valar: Since it's down to me and Varda for the chat is seems, I guess we can adjourn for today and let everyone be about their business.
VardaValar1: Sauron is hard to really know, as we don't see him up close.
Menelvagor Valar: He is the best example though.
VardaValar1: How much was pride, and how much was strategy?
Menelvagor Valar: his pride in his orcs and defenses and power let him get caught off-guard by a simple hobbit.
Eonwe Valar: Strategy would've been to hold some of his vast army back in Mordor, just in case.
Menelvagor Valar: But with that, I bid you farewell. Namarie!
VardaValar1: His belief that no one would destroy the Ring, but would try to use it, would be his main problem on strategy.
Eonwe Valar: Surely it didn't take his uncounted numbers to crush a few thousands of soldiers.
VardaValar1: That is where his worldview and pride wrecked him.
VardaValar1: Namarie. : )
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: Guess I should let you study for finals. : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs Gavel*

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting :}
VardaValar1: Namarie all. : )
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}