Valar Guild

September 2, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon, Fladrif (Netherlands' time), and Varda

Attending: (5)
    Members: Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, ArPharazonV, Fladrifv, Pallando Valar, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting begins
       New one sent in during the meeting by Fladrif.
    Website needs work. Do we want to go with a wiki? Problems in navigation of the website, due to using two systems at the same time.
        (Previously meeting mentioned Forum colors are hard to read and they might be better in the same color as the main site.)
    Eve Online: news and offer from Pallando-(Valar)
    Posted a discussion topic to the Forum, riddles are still going.
    More discussion about improving the website

(10:31:25 PM) Sarujil entered the room.
(10:31:25 PM) Fladrifv entered the room.
(10:31:37 PM) Fladrifv: Aiya
(10:46:41 PM) Sarujil: hi
(10:46:51 PM) Sarujil: mostly afk :-) dinner
(10:54:37 PM) Fladrifv: happy looting :)
(10:56:11 PM) Pallando Valar entered the room.
(10:56:28 PM) Pallando Valar: o/
(11:00:33 PM) Fladrifv: Hey
(11:02:18 PM) ArPharazonV entered the room.
(11:02:22 PM) ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Won't be long
Fladrifv: how long is not long?
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
Fladrifv: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: maybe 10 minutes, maybe an hour
ArPharazonV: I need to get up in 6 and a half hours, so...
VardaValar1: Sauron just turned over his computer to let me on. Thanks Sauron.
VardaValar1: I'll probably have to retract my riddle, btw.
VardaValar1: Maybe we can run a short meeting, pardon phone
VardaValar1: back

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: We have been slackers on recruiting and need to work on that. /smackhead
VardaValar1: Any other Membership news?
VardaValar1: Several need to leave soon, so we will press onwards quickly : )

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: We have a story in line to put up, and Fladrif is about to send one in. : )
VardaValar1: We could also use some new articles if anyone would like to work on those.
VardaValar1: I still don't have a comp of my own to work on and am working around some other people to put up things, so please bear with me.
ArPharazonV: still working on it, nearly done with my Numenor-research, though I won't be able to do a lot about that in the next week
VardaValar1: We can also post to the Forum and old Discussion Board
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar
VardaValar1: No deadline. : )
Fladrifv: Deadlines are always yesterday ;-)

VardaValar1: We have a comment from one member that our site isn't "pretty" enough to draw people to post to us rather than other places,
ArPharazonV: don't remind me, I bet I'll have lots of deadlines before the end of the month...
VardaValar1: and that we aren't easy enough to post on.
VardaValar1: Any comments there? Do you feel we need to be easier to post on? prettier? other?
Fladrifv: in one way or another its good to have a barier for the posted things
Fladrifv: allthough a style change and uniformity would be nice
ArPharazonV: this person failed to mention at what points we need improvement, I take it?
ArPharazonV: besides pretty and easier
ArPharazonV: color-changes? log-in protocol?
VardaValar1: He built a site for us as a wiki site
VardaValar1: I'll be taking a closer look
VardaValar1: I've been told before we should go wiki with moderator
VardaValar1: I even tried to do it once
Fladrifv: how flexible is wiki to not end up with ynwp
VardaValar1: Found out I can't get rid of part of the wiki stuff after experimenting with it.
VardaValar1: ynwp?
Fladrifv: yet another wiki page :-)
VardaValar1: There's already moderated wiki Tolkien stuff out there, notably Srekals
VardaValar1: Ours [non-wiki website] at least allows copyright
VardaValar1: Guess I'll experiment with it a bit more, wanted to know how you guys felt.
VardaValar1: What part of the site do you find jarringly not uniform?
Fladrifv: the switch from intro to other pages and back
VardaValar1: (Someone please save this transcript, I'm on an odd comp)
Fladrifv: ends up in another page
VardaValar1: Are you using the menu?
Fladrifv: yes :-)
VardaValar1: What pages are you talking about? Encyc?
Fladrifv: uhm ok I do not want to offend people
Fladrifv: I just want to state some things that I think can be done better...
VardaValar1: Not offensive, need to know where to work
VardaValar1: Aye, big mess at the moment
Fladrifv: I know but to be sure :-)
VardaValar1: Then you can email me instead of a public transcript if that would be easier for you?
Fladrifv: activating frames on for example
VardaValar1: Ok, what is the problem there? Seems to work.
Fladrifv: frames color are a bit odd
VardaValar1: The black background? The text?
Fladrifv: aye sometimes it stays the own style
Fladrifv: and sometimes it adapts to the style of the page
VardaValar1: Sorry, could you give an example?
Fladrifv: I think to not make this too boring and long that a little group should work together to define what way we should go with the site :-)
VardaValar1: We are about to go with php and css
VardaValar1: I finished puttting in menus as we had started on them.
VardaValar1: All the menus should be black background, not shifting
Fladrifv: nice
VardaValar1: But you say they are shifting?
Fladrifv: nowadays all browsers suport more or less css
VardaValar1: But others want to go wiki
VardaValar1: and others want to go with other programs entirely
Fladrifv: other programs?
VardaValar1: I mainly want to get the content out there
VardaValar1: like E-Fiction
Fladrifv: the good thing with wiki will be the time save
VardaValar1: Everyone has some different idea.
VardaValar1: Time save for whom?
Fladrifv: the one designing it
VardaValar1: Me. I get to transfer all those files.
VardaValar1: No matter how we change it, I have to do massive changing.
VardaValar1: So don't think of it as saving me time. But how to best serve the user.
VardaValar1: php and css require me to do massive changes too.
Fladrifv: I think priority one is to make sure the user will not get lost
VardaValar1: ok, bored you all now.
VardaValar1: I agree.
VardaValar1: I tried to set up several systems of navigation to handle the various complaints.
Fladrifv: 2nd do not follow any fashion our site needs to survive those strange fassion things :-)
VardaValar1: We even have a search engine.
ArPharazonV: the authentication of the content is important too, though? we don't want people adding unmoderated nonsense, or worse, editing articles to make them worse :-)
VardaValar1: I am sweating that out, Fladrif.
ArPharazonV: I know Wiki's infamous for that
VardaValar1: Right, So any system still requires a moderator.
VardaValar1: Right, Phar.
Fladrifv: I agree phar
VardaValar1: I now even moderate the old Discussion Board.
VardaValar1: The only place not really moderated is the new Forum.
ArPharazonV: if we're going to include the encyc in this, we need to make sure you cannot change the articles of another user
VardaValar1: We hit it after the fact.
VardaValar1: I still don't understand what it is that Fladrif saw changing on the menu. I need to fix it.
VardaValar1: If you mean lack of same menu on Gaming, that is to jump it to Eonwe's section and his own style of menu.
Fladrifv: no my fonts grow :-)
VardaValar1: Ok. Not on mine. So I need to investigate that.
VardaValar1: That happening to anyone else?
ArPharazonV: seems fine to me
VardaValar1: I will go through and re-work all the menus and try to find the problem, if I have to completely remake them.
VardaValar1: Is that the only thing bothering you?
VardaValar1: If you see more later, please feel free to email me
VardaValar1: I need this kind of help for quality control
VardaValar1: Who else is saving?
ArPharazonV: I could try, but it won't be much
Fladrifv: the other thing is the getting lost thing :S
VardaValar1: Where are you getting lost?
Fladrifv: if I go into links
VardaValar1: The Links page?
Fladrifv: from the frame
Fladrifv: itappears within the frame
VardaValar1: Not on mine. :-(
ArPharazonV: ehrr?
Fladrifv: or if I go to the forum I need to go back with my browser
VardaValar1: Frame disappears completely for me going into Links
ArPharazonV: frame's fine in my links page
Fladrifv: aye sometimes depends where you came from it seems
VardaValar1: The Forum is supposed to be outside the frames. Do you want it inside?
VardaValar1: Where is the Links going crazy for you?
VardaValar1: Each spot I tried wipes out frames completely.
VardaValar1: Phar, you still see a frame when on the Links page?
ArPharazonV: yep
ArPharazonV: same frame on top of the page
ArPharazonV: well, a few less links there on the frame
VardaValar1: Not supposed to be any frame at all on the left side.
ArPharazonV: left side?
ArPharazonV: ohh, that frame
VardaValar1: There are only frames on the side. None elsewhere
ArPharazonV: yes, when I enter the links section, there's a frame on the left side
VardaValar1: Fladrif asked me previously to cut down the number of links on the top.
ArPharazonV: but not if I click links from the frame itself
VardaValar1: When in frames, one is supposed to use the frames links.
ArPharazonV: yes, I get that now ;-)
VardaValar1: When not in frames, one is supposed to use the non-frames links.
VardaValar1: Trying to make it workable both ways seems to be the cause of confusion?
ArPharazonV: yes, but when in frames, you can also use the non-frame links
VardaValar1: Correct
ArPharazonV: and if you go to the links section through the non-frame links, the frame is still there on the left side
VardaValar1: Didn't think you guys wanted them disabled.
ArPharazonV: but if you go to the links section throught the frame links, the frame disappears
ArPharazonV: *through
VardaValar1: The frames also has a link to let you remove the frames.
VardaValar1: So if it gets to be a mess, you can clear it.
Fladrifv: :-)
ArPharazonV: and if you click frames from the non-frame links, you get frames inside frames!
Fladrifv: ok I cant reproduce the mess I created...:-(
VardaValar1: So you guys want me to make it just frames or just not frames?
Fladrifv: I would say no frames at all :-)
ArPharazonV: I really don't mind the way it i snow
ArPharazonV: *it is
ArPharazonV: I like having the choice
VardaValar1: You can run it with no frames completely.
Fladrifv: ah I found my getting lost thing
VardaValar1: Just don't use the frames if you don't like them. You have the option.
Fladrifv: aye I will :-)
VardaValar1: Others told me they prefer the frames very much.
VardaValar1: So I have both options available.
VardaValar1: But I needed the quality control help
ArPharazonV: well, I have to go
VardaValar1: Bye Phar
Fladrifv: Namarie Phar
Fladrifv: and gl!
ArPharazonV: thanks
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
ArPharazonV: I'll save and send, but...
ArPharazonV: someone else needs to get the rest!
ArPharazonV: I'm sure Ancalagon's up for the job ;-)
VardaValar1: Flad, maybe it's just me, but I don't see anything on your post.
VardaValar1: You there, Ancalagon?
Fladrifv: this better?
VardaValar1: Now I see you : )
Fladrifv: ok so formatting went off
VardaValar1: You say the green bar at the top seems to move?
Fladrifv: not the bar itself
Fladrifv: but the order and amount on the links on it :-)
VardaValar1: Aye, that was for you from an earlier complaint of too many links at the top.
VardaValar1: Where does the order change?
Fladrifv: on about
ArPharazonV: yes, the amount changes a lot indeed
VardaValar1: The number of links changes because of previous requet. Should I put them all back in?
VardaValar1: Making sure they remain in the same order? I had them by subject of the page up.
VardaValar1: I can rework it.
Fladrifv: seems better indeed sorry for the inconvience....
ArPharazonV: well, saving
VardaValar1: There is nothing convenient about maintaining a website. : )
VardaValar1: Ok, so put all the links back on top but keep the order the same?
Fladrifv: aye :D
(12:07:46 AM) ArPharazonV: saved
(12:07:48 AM) VardaValar1: hehe - same as it used to be. ok. I'll get on that
(12:07:55 AM) VardaValar1: Phar, thank you!
(12:08:15 AM) VardaValar1: If the first part of Anc's transcript is lost, we can quilt yours in.
(12:08:40 AM) VardaValar1: ok, I now have a good idea what to work on. Thank you!

(12:08:43 AM) VardaValar1: Gaming:
(12:09:01 AM) VardaValar1: Pallando wanted me to copy/paste this:
(12:09:19 AM) VardaValar1: Pallando Valar: I have a message from eve (I still exist!): The Eve alliance tournament is happening, previous days & continuing schedule is here:
(12:10:41 AM) VardaValar1: Are you guys seeing the copy/paste?
(12:10:49 AM) Fladrifv: I do
(12:11:08 AM) VardaValar1: Pallando Valar: some of the commentary interesting for those who don't know eve, some not
(12:11:21 AM) VardaValar1: Pallando Valar: plenty of explosion, though. :-) the extras page also has the cool trailers for eve, I reccommend no other destiny and the revelations II trailer
(12:11:29 AM) ArPharazonV: we are
(12:11:40 AM) VardaValar1: Pallando Valar: right, 14 day trial avail and drop me an e-mail or im if you want to know more!
(12:11:51 AM) ArPharazonV: I didn't get the link though
(12:11:53 AM) VardaValar1: Finished copy/paste.
(12:12:17 AM) VardaValar1:
(12:12:29 AM) ArPharazonV: :)
(12:12:29 AM) VardaValar1: It got banned.
(12:12:40 AM) VardaValar1: add http:// in front and you have it.
(12:12:43 AM) ArPharazonV: yeah, aspx seems to be banned, aye
(12:12:51 AM) ArPharazonV: happened to me a few meetings ago
(12:13:04 AM) VardaValar1: but leaving off http seemed to work.
(12:13:12 AM) VardaValar1: Interesting
(12:13:31 AM) VardaValar1: I think we can drop the WoW and LotRO reports for this particular group.
(12:13:47 AM) ArPharazonV: Namarie all!
(12:13:48 AM) VardaValar1: And you guys need to leave, right?
(12:14:02 AM) VardaValar1: So we can call it and use the Forum for Tolkien : )
(12:14:08 AM) VardaValar1: Namarie, Phar!
(12:14:28 AM) ArPharazonV: oh, try discussing Anc's silm riddle!
(12:14:30 AM) VardaValar1: Anc is at a party, leaving this up
(12:14:38 AM) VardaValar1: He is not really available
(12:14:38 AM) ArPharazonV: ah, ok
(12:14:42 AM) ArPharazonV: *waves*
(12:14:47 AM) Fladrifv: *wave*
(12:14:53 AM) VardaValar1: *wave*

(12:14:59 AM) Fladrifv: recieved my mail varda? [story]
(12:15:05 AM) ArPharazonV left the room.
(12:15:14 AM) VardaValar1: Yes, thanks!
(12:16:03 AM) VardaValar1: I should be able to work with that.
(12:16:30 AM) VardaValar1: On the pages again,
(12:16:51 AM) VardaValar1: Some spots I had a problem with a space that insisted on popping up at the top of the page.
(12:17:16 AM) VardaValar1: That makes the bar position appear to move. Maybe I can find the problem on the HTML editor and fix that.
(12:17:27 AM) VardaValar1: Just needed a reminder to do it. :-)
(12:17:43 AM) VardaValar1: Do we have any more business?
(12:18:00 AM) Fladrifv: change the dark and light flips ;)
(12:18:22 AM) Fladrifv: make the home always go to the same home
(12:18:44 AM) VardaValar1: Dark and light flips? You lost me.
(12:19:30 AM) VardaValar1: The Home should be going to
(12:19:46 AM) VardaValar1: from Membership pages.
(12:19:55 AM) VardaValar1: but not from Tolkien Site pages.
(12:20:00 AM) Fladrifv: or to
(12:20:12 AM) Fladrifv: or is that unlogic?
(12:20:40 AM) VardaValar1: Why would you go there? That lacks links needed to go to the other pages?
(12:21:39 AM) Fladrifv: just feels little strange that you do not end up on the entry page anymore
(12:21:40 AM) VardaValar1: The Tolkien pages don't say home, but say Tolkien Site
(12:21:55 AM) VardaValar1: So I should put a link to the entry page?
(12:22:08 AM) VardaValar1: It could say Entry : )
(12:22:54 AM) VardaValar1: I could have it just on the Home page?
(12:23:09 AM) Fladrifv: or remove the home
(12:23:20 AM) Fladrifv: it does not add any new things
(12:23:31 AM) VardaValar1: The Home page was supposed to have the complete set of links
(12:23:52 AM) Fladrifv: I see
(12:23:57 AM) Fladrifv: that makes sense :D
(12:23:59 AM) VardaValar1: Remember that the other pages were supposed to have fewer links, only for that area.
(12:24:14 AM) VardaValar1: But if I put them all back, then the Home page has no use.
(12:24:24 AM) VardaValar1: So I could then shift it to entry.
(12:24:36 AM) Fladrifv: or add all links to the entry
(12:24:39 AM) VardaValar1: There will be no picture spot either.
(12:24:53 AM) VardaValar1: Click the Valar Guild gif
(12:25:21 AM) Fladrifv: that one can link to news
(12:25:22 AM) VardaValar1: That puts you onto frames instantly
(12:25:42 AM) VardaValar1: You assume people want to go to the News first. Not true. Some do and some don't.
(12:26:08 AM) VardaValar1: Or maybe you mean put the News as the spot on the right of the frame.
(12:26:19 AM) VardaValar1: You also wanted to run the site with no frame.
(12:26:40 AM) Fladrifv: aye I can use the entry links for hitting direct hte place i need
(12:26:54 AM) Fladrifv: the inbetween home is a little confusing or not?
(12:27:12 AM) VardaValar1: You are the one telling me if it is. It's not to me because I made it. : )
(12:27:34 AM) Fladrifv: ok for me its a little strange to have 2 home's
(12:27:37 AM) VardaValar1: If you hit the News link, you can ignore Home
(12:27:56 AM) VardaValar1: What do you want from the pages? News and Tolkien?
(12:28:33 AM) Fladrifv: aye I can use back and use the entry :)
(12:28:44 AM) Fladrifv: that works for me
(12:29:12 AM) VardaValar1: Why do you need the entry once you are where you want to go?
(12:29:33 AM) VardaValar1: The entry was created as an easy way for people to remember where we are. : )
(12:29:48 AM) VardaValar1: Much easier than remembering the name of the Home page
(12:30:53 AM) VardaValar1: I could say go to
(12:31:04 AM) VardaValar1: or could say
(12:31:15 AM) VardaValar1: They remember the short one.
(12:31:25 AM) Fladrifv: but the later one could link to the first one :)
(12:31:45 AM) VardaValar1: Sure. I can add an entry link to the Home page. Not a bad idea.
(12:31:48 AM) Fladrifv: but ok maybe im the only one that is browsing over a site and not going one way to destination
(12:32:17 AM) VardaValar1: If one person has a problem, it usually means ten others are too that did not speak.
(12:32:35 AM) VardaValar1: Would that entry point on the Home page fix it?
(12:34:01 AM) Fladrifv: yes
(12:34:17 AM) Fladrifv: allthough I still think the home is totaly unnesesarely ;)
(12:34:46 AM) VardaValar1: If I put all the links on every page, it will be unnecessary.
(12:35:01 AM) VardaValar1: I can then put the News where the current Home is
(12:35:17 AM) VardaValar1: We can drop the picture completely.
(12:35:32 AM) Fladrifv: and use entry as base
(12:35:33 AM) VardaValar1: I used to change it every week, and thought I might do an image rotator.
(12:35:57 AM) Fladrifv: or use home as entry and rotate image once in a while
(12:35:58 AM) Fladrifv: :)
(12:36:11 AM) VardaValar1: Entry is not good for anything except a quick way to remember where the site is.
(12:36:36 AM) Fladrifv: is it hosted on different servers?
(12:36:55 AM) VardaValar1: Those two pages happen to be on the same server.
(12:37:04 AM) VardaValar1: The picture is on a different server.
(12:37:10 AM) Fladrifv: otherwise the index.html can link direct automatic to
(12:37:41 AM) Fladrifv: I think the thing is that the site feels to have 2 faces
(12:37:41 AM) VardaValar1: I can put what we currently see as home on the
(12:37:53 AM) VardaValar1: It has three or more, if you get picky. : )
(12:38:19 AM) VardaValar1: And some people choose to come in on a particular point of the Tolkien Site only and ignore the general News.
(12:38:45 AM) VardaValar1: But I need more than one person to say they want this change on the entry.
(12:39:02 AM) VardaValar1: If it is agreed, then I will do it.
(12:39:11 AM) VardaValar1: Silly meeting with only two people talking. : )
(12:39:16 AM) Fladrifv: orcourse :)
(12:39:25 AM) Fladrifv: hehe more power ;)
(12:39:34 AM) VardaValar1: Hard to make group decisions.
(12:39:41 AM) VardaValar1: No, it means delay.
(12:39:53 AM) VardaValar1: I can do it all the way I want to and ignore all of you guys : )
(12:40:01 AM) VardaValar1: But I want to work for the group, not just me.
(12:40:08 AM) Fladrifv: *looks to the sky*
(12:40:28 AM) Fladrifv: what evillness is upon us! ;)
(12:40:28 AM) VardaValar1: You need to seek your sleep? : )
(12:40:48 AM) VardaValar1: Evilness of people not coming to the meetings?
(12:41:01 AM) Fladrifv: no you grabbing the absolute power
(12:41:12 AM) VardaValar1: I already have it. I share it around. ;-)
(12:41:30 AM) VardaValar1: Or you guys can make your own site and ignore me. :-)
(12:41:31 AM) Fladrifv: hey that is not how dictators should act ;)
(12:42:06 AM) VardaValar1: Advantage of a group. If you don't like the leader's way but someone else's, go with the other.
(12:42:19 AM) Fladrifv: aye
(12:42:21 AM) VardaValar1: But the group must agree or it is just a disjointed mess.
(12:42:31 AM) Fladrifv: *pats varda* you do fine
(12:42:37 AM) VardaValar1: I try really hard.
(12:42:45 AM) VardaValar1: Thanky
(12:43:03 AM) VardaValar1: I do need those people who want all the changes to come to meetings.
(12:43:04 AM) Fladrifv: its just those ents that trouble your life istn it *grin*
(12:43:16 AM) VardaValar1: Nope. The ones who don't come to meetings make it very hard.
(12:43:25 AM) VardaValar1: But we muddle through.
(12:43:30 AM) VardaValar1: I need to go too. : )
(12:43:35 AM) Fladrifv: Namarie
(12:43:35 AM) VardaValar1: Thanks for your input!
(12:43:38 AM) VardaValar1: Namarie!
(12:43:40 AM) Fladrifv: *bows*
(12:43:53 AM) Fladrifv: ill save the script
(12:44:00 AM) VardaValar1: Thank you!!!!