Valar Guild

September 16, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Eonwe and Varda

Attending: (9)
    Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, ArathornValar, AriehnV, arwenv1, Elwing V, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Fladrifv, GilraenV, Glorfindel VG

Meeting begins
    StarCraft 2
       Argent Dawn
    LotRO for the SuperNintendo
    Elwing's topic: What were the descriptions and actual uses of the Three Elven Rings?
    Ancalagon's riddle solved. Probably going to drop riddling from the trivia as it is driving people away with the added difficulty.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
arwenv1: I beat joo :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Fladrifv has entered the room.
Fladrifv: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya Fladrif
arwenv1: Aiya :-)
arwenv1: arg, the font is so night right, brb
arwenv1 has left the room.
arwenv1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, channel's pretty empty for 5 minutes before the meeting.
arwenv1: :-)
Sarujil has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Ancalagon
Sarujil: hi
Eonwe Valar: We'll begin in a couple of minutes.
Eonwe Valar: Varda's still having DSL issues, so she may not make it tonight.
arwenv1: ouch
AriehnV has entered the room.
arwenv1: Aiya!
AriehnV: Aiya there Arwen :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien
AriehnV: and aiya the rest of you
arwenv1: Hi Arien :-)
Eonwe Valar: Ok, this looks like more or less everyone. Let's begin.
Eonwe Valar: Start thinking up Tolkien topics.
Elwing V has entered the room.
arwenv1: Elwing! :-)
Eonwe Valar: Just in time for the beginning of the meeting Elwing :}
AriehnV: Aiya Elwing :-)
Elwing V: Aiya!
GilraenV has entered the room.
AriehnV: aiya Gilraen !
Eonwe Valar: Heya Gilraen. another one just in time for the meeting :}
GilraenV: Aiya folks :-)

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Varda and family still having DSL issues.
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
arwenv1: I'm back at school, WITH computer, and can start attending meetings/gaming again :-)
Eonwe Valar: Good to hear :}
Eonwe Valar: School usually means less gaming for me :}
Elwing V has left the room.
arwenv1: :-) Ididnt game at all during the summer, so even a little bit of gaming is more.
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
AriehnV: I have bought some new books :-D
Eonwe Valar: What kind?
AriehnV: Sauron defeated , the languages of Middlearth and Lord of the clans *blushes*
Eonwe Valar: Ah, good choices all.
AriehnV: The latter one being Thralls story
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Eonwe Valar: Sauron Defeated being book 9 of the History of Middle Earth :}
AriehnV: indeed :-)
AriehnV: think there might be some interesting stuff in there
Elwing V has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Quite likely :}
Elwing V: Aiya again :0 darn I hate when I hit the wrong key!
Eonwe Valar: Happens to us all :}
ArathornValar has left the room.

Eonwe Valar: Ok, on to Web news:
AriehnV has left the room.
ArathornValar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Updated Story: Roots Up: An Ent's Tale.
ArathornValar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: This is a story by Fladrif, for those who don't know :}
Eonwe Valar: Written for the Guild's 10th Anniversary :}
Eonwe Valar: New Story: Wedding Nerves by Jay of Lasgalen.

Eonwe Valar: That does it for Web news, on to Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: Starcraft 2: New Unit announced, the Protoss Mother Ship.
Eonwe Valar: World of Warcraft:
Eonwe Valar: For those who may not have heard, the next patch will be bringing voice chat directly into WoW, so no more need for third-party programs.
AriehnV has entered the room.
arwenv1: oh wow :-) cool!
Elwing V: ooh, aah
AriehnV: oops happens to me as well ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Of course, I doubt that's going to mean dial-up users are going to find it any less laggy to use, but we'll see I suppose :}
Eonwe Valar: They've also mentioned Guild banks as something they want to put in in the next few patches, or I assume Wrath of the Lich King at the latest, so that'll be nice tohave as well.
arwenv1: I read about that in an article begining of the summer, that they were planning it, it sounds very cool.
Elwing V: more bank space - yay!
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's move to the gaming reports.
Eonwe Valar: Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: Not much to tell unfortunately. I came in late due to having my truck worked on, and the only person's path I crossed was Elwing's.
Eonwe Valar: She was hunting for leather, and I was hunting for Aldor rep at the time.
Eonwe Valar: Oh, pardon, Bilbo was on for a bit as well, my apologies.
Eonwe Valar: That concludes the Lothar report.
[Note: during the week before the DSL went down, other gamers were Varda's, Fangorn's, Sauron's, Bilbo's, Eowyn's, and a guild-friend's.]
Eonwe Valar: Uldaman:
Eonwe Valar: Elwing's report as given on the news:
Eonwe Valar: I was on WoW from about 8:15 to 11:15; chatted a bit with Theodwyn (~10 level char of Vaire), she was running thru dungeon accompanied by high level of Vlmo.
Eonwe Valar: She commented I was first "guildie" she'd caught in awhile, thought maybe most were in other games more now. I said I thought school starting might be big reason for scarcity too.
Eonwe Valar: Report end :}"
Eonwe Valar: That about cover it, Elwing? :}
Elwing V: mostly; was on a lesser time Thur night...
Elwing V: saw both again - theyd had successful run thru dungeon on Wed :}
[Note: other members were on Lothar, unwilling to switch to Uldaman. Thirty lashes with a wet noodle.]
Eonwe Valar: Cool ;}
Elwing V: that's all
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: Argent Dawn:
Eonwe Valar: Your floor, Arien :}
AriehnV: thanks , Eonwe :-)
AriehnV: Ariehn , my younng priest was quite innocently helping *quickly* a paladin she met on the road with widow Stilwell when she saw a teddy tank coming on that was to be useful to her.
AriehnV: Said teddytank was Morningsong, Menelvagors druid :-) a rare catch indeed
AriehnV: Ariehn successfully enlisted her services to climb an orc tower in Redridge for a better view
arwenv1: :-)
Elwing V: tossing off orcs on the way up, I'm guessing :-)
Eonwe Valar: One second, seems Arwen isn't actually here...
Eonwe Valar: er, Arien
arwenv1: oh dear =o
Eonwe Valar: Does anyone here see Arien not in the channel? I need them to send Arien an invitation.
arwenv1: I see her in =o
Elwing V: her name in my "box" ...hmmmm
arwenv1: one sec
ArathornValar: I see her as Areihnv
arwenv1 has left the room.
arwenv1 has entered the room.
arwenv1: hmm, is she here now? I invited her.
Eonwe Valar: She can't accept the invitation.
Elwing V: sight on orc tower must have been so awesome, just thinking about it has her mezmerized...
AriehnV has left the room.
ArathornValar: looks like she timed out...
Eonwe Valar: She signed out. I suggested she do it.
Eonwe Valar: Only option I saw left.
AriehnV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Welcome back :}
Elwing V: welcome back!
Eonwe Valar: One ytou get settled in your chair again, you can continue :}
AriehnV: oops sorry for that
Eonwe Valar: *once
AriehnV: aim crashed on me
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Oh, it did crash? Thought you purposely signed out :}
Eonwe Valar: and looks like it happened again,.. not good.
arwenv1: :-)
Elwing V: seems to be coming a bad habit :{
arwenv1: ouch =o
Elwing V: of aim
Eonwe Valar: Arien's still having troubles. We may end up relaying the report through me to complete it.
Eonwe Valar: Beginning relay:
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: "AriehnV: After the visit to the orc cave and tower we carried on to dusk wood where Ariehnn assisted Morningsong in gathering the Defias docket and,
Eonwe Valar: with assistance of a stronger priest in the neighbourhood , we vanquished Elisabeth and earlier on
Eonwe Valar: : the guy that wanders around ... that 30 elite
Elwing V: he is a pain to keep track of!
Eonwe Valar: (Mor'ladim is who she means)
Eonwe Valar: At Raven hill cemetary
Eonwe Valar: thus found an entertaining night an end , and thus endeth my report."
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: lets try again
AriehnV: hello :-)
Eonwe Valar: Just relayed your report :}
Eonwe Valar: Thanks, Arien and welcome back :}
arwenv1: :-)
Eonwe Valar: Glad it finally let you back in :}
AriehnV: And me :-)
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately, I don't have a report. Was anyone here on LotRO for Monday questing?
ArathornValar: I was off all week with computer issues.. turned out to be dirty RAM, cleaned it off and the motherboard and can now play LOTRo, so I bought it ;-)
ArathornValar: .. can get an invite now that it's working (Ancalagon was trying to inv last week but I crashed)
ArathornValar: So if theres anyone on Landroval that can inv me I'm there ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I'm using dial-up so it takes me forever to do anything on LotRo, but I'll see what I can do after the meeting if you can't find a Maia or Vala on before then.
AriehnV: I can log on and invite you there
Eonwe Valar: There you go, that works :}
AriehnV: whats the name of your chatr again ?
AriehnV: middlearth1
ArathornValar: Arathornv...
AriehnV: hang on need to reactivate the account
ArathornValar: I have a couple other chars I created but was just trying them out.. may have a couple more later
Eonwe Valar: Ok, so no gaming report from LotRO tonight it seems. Guess that brings us to Tolkien chat.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, anyone do anything besides LotRO or WoW tonight?
Fladrifv: playing chess :-)
Eonwe Valar: er, this week, not tonight.
Fladrifv: want the whole list?
Eonwe Valar: A whole list isn't necessary, just a highlight if youwant to give it :}
Fladrifv: got some old games off the shelf
Fladrifv: lorto for the supernintendo is still a hard game to master :S
Fladrifv: -o :-)
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, I still pull that game out as well :}
Eonwe Valar: The main theme is catchy :}
Eonwe Valar: My brother and I used to kill Nazgul on that game :}
Fladrifv: I never came very far so I try to get there now
Eonwe Valar: The passwords can be hard to read, which is one of my major gripes about the game.
Fladrifv: hehe therefore I screendump them
Fladrifv: connect my snes to my computer :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Anythign else for gaming?
Eonwe Valar: If not, we really will move to Tolkien chat this time, so I hope you all have a Tolkien topic :}

Eonwe Valar: Ok, Tolkien chat :}
Eonwe Valar: Whisper me topics now or you get mine :}
Fladrifv: oh nooos! ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Everyone still at the keyboard say aye.
Fladrifv: eya
Elwing V: aye!
Sarujil: aye
arwenv1: aye :-)
Glorfindel VG: I
Eonwe Valar: Ok, you all got lucky :} Today's Tolkien Topic is front Elwing :}
Eonwe Valar: Your floor, Elwing :}
Eonwe Valar: front = from
Elwing V: ** bows **
Eonwe Valar: bah me and my many mistakes today.
Elwing V: I have a question(s) about the 3 elven rings...
Elwing V: in "guide to middle-earth" (my main ref) it says Gandalf had the "ring of fire" which I'm guessing referred mainly to red color, tho if it strengthened hearts...
Elwing V: that could be like "firing a person up" :-) Main question: what did the other 2 rings do?
Eonwe Valar: Each of the three rings had a jewel set in it as well.
Eonwe Valar: narya's (the ring Gandlaf wore) would've been a ruby.
Eonwe Valar: *Gandalf
Eonwe Valar: Or perhaps a bloodstone.
Elwing V: saffire for Vilya (like blue sky) - the "ring of air"
Eonwe Valar: Don't recall if it specifically said "ruby" but pretty sure it did.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Narya had the ability to strengthen the hearts of the Free Peoples, as it helped during the Siege of Minas Tirith when he patrolled the city.
Elwing V: Nenya - ring of water - with white stone (opal maybe) like foam from waves
Eonwe Valar: I believe it's typically understood that Narya also held sway with literal fire.
Elwing V: think that could have helped with the Balrog?
Eonwe Valar: It's possible.
Eonwe Valar: Ther eare also examples of Gandalf using fire.
Elwing V: he had a flair for fireworks :} (slight pun intended)
Eonwe Valar: Since he was a Maia, he likely could create fire on his own anyway, but Narya may have helped in some way.
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: The Three Rings in general were created for preservation rather than domination and power.
Elwing V: seems that Elrond and Galadriel used theirs for upkeep (safety) of their homes, but how exactly would that have been done?
Eonwe Valar: Both Rivendell and Lothlorien, where Vilya and Nenya resided respectively, were places where time seemed to stand still.
Elwing V: for Vilya, seems Elrond keep Rivendell mostly "hidden" - maybe the "air" ring could create a mist or fog to aid that?
Elwing V: or "cloud" minds to not realize what they might be getting close to
Eonwe Valar: Well, Elwrond has a bit of maia blood in him, and Galadriel is one of the original Noldorin Exiles, having lived physically among the light of the Two Trees in Valinor. Elrond of course was also decided from Noldorin exiles, so both
Eonwe Valar: *Elrond
Eonwe Valar: *so both had a measure of power already.
Eonwe Valar: decided = descended
Elwing V: maybe Galadriels ("water" ring) helped her with her "mirror" more than anything else
Eonwe Valar: Well, it's also interesting to note that Elrond used the river to drown the Nazgul, but he holds the Ring of Air.
Elwing V: if they are actually connected with the descriptive names they have
Eonwe Valar: I would note here that Rivendell is seen as a haven, a place of rest.
Eonwe Valar: the would "sulë" refers not only to wind, but to spirit as well.
Elwing V: "sule" another name for vilya?
Elwing V: that would be interesting...
Eonwe Valar: No, it's a root word in one of Manwë's names: Sulimo, which means "Lord ofthe Breath of Arda."
Eonwe Valar: roughly
Elwing V: ah
Eonwe Valar: Or at least refers to his role as such.
Eonwe Valar: The point being that Rivendell is a place of refreshing and recovery, not just of the body, but of the mind and spirit as well.
Elwing V: that gives an idea tho...
Eonwe Valar: Bilbo goes to Rivendell after his long stint of keeping the One Ring.
Elwing V: maybe along with a "ring of heart", there would be a "ring of spirit"
Eonwe Valar: I'm implying that Vilya fits that bill :}
Elwing V: and then the 3rd could be a "ring of mind" perhaps?
Elwing V: that would suit Galadriel well, as she could see in other's minds
Eonwe Valar: Well, perhaps, but that seems to be a trait of particularly gifted Elves, perhaps to an extent all Elves, anyway.
Elwing V: I would think just between Elves tho, not (say) Elves and Dwarves (could have avoided a lot of trouble if that was so....or maybe made it worse!)
Eonwe Valar: I think perhaps to say "desires" instead of "minds" would bring it closer to your hypothesis.
Eonwe Valar: Each of the Fellowship said it seemed like She knew what they wanted, and could offer it to them.
Eonwe Valar: Feel free to weigh in at any time, guys and gals :}
Elwing V: true - close contact between reading a "heart" and a "mind"
Eonwe Valar: Or are you all madly scrambling through your books? ;}
Elwing V: please- interrupt if you have ideas!
Eonwe Valar: For Nenya, the Ring of Water, it's symbolic power I would use the analogy of a well.
Elwing V: that's deep...sorry, couldn't resist :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehehe
Eonwe Valar: Whereas in Rivendell where one is given a chance to recovery in mind, body, and spirit for the next phase of their journey, in Lothlorien each one is confronted with a decision, a choice between what they desire and what they're com
Eonwe Valar: *committed to.
Elwing V: they also had a big decision to make in Rivendell - about what to do with the ring
Elwing V: they weren't resting terribly easy while that was there
Eonwe Valar: Well, that was a desciion made by consensus of the Council.
Eonwe Valar: *decision
Eonwe Valar: The choices made in Lothlorien were personal decisions.
Elwing V: they had some good rest in Lothlorien, tho it was marred by Gandalf's "death"
Eonwe Valar: And I think the Hobbits were getting along quite well in Rivendell :}
Elwing V: any place with full tables!
Eonwe Valar: Aye, without Gandalf and Narya to strengthen their hearts, they had to find resolve in themselves, possibly another necessity for the stay in Lothlorien.
Elwing V: a strength of mind, to set each to his own purpose
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately, one of them failed the test.
Elwing V: poor Boromir, so conflicted...
Eonwe Valar: Fortunately, he redeemed himself in the end.
Elwing V: yep, he made it as "a good guy"
Eonwe Valar: So, what do we have about the Rings?
Eonwe Valar: How can we sum up what we've said so far, in other words.
Elwing V: tuff order....
Eonwe Valar: Well, let's take it in peices.
Eonwe Valar: First, let's sum up the Three Rings in general.
Eonwe Valar: We know that they were created for preservation, not for domination.
Elwing V: they encouraged the positive inclinations of person's heart, mind, spirit...
Elwing V: that would have continued (hopefully) after the person was outside the direct influence
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately that didn't seem to hold true during the Siege of Minas Tirith.
Eonwe Valar: Of course, there were also Nazgul flying around.
Elwing V: and they assisted in safekeeping of the home area of their holders (Gandalf as wanderer not so much, but maybe Cirdan as original wearer used for making of Gray Havens)
Elwing V: that would have been (I guess) what would have "failed" when the One Ring was destroyed
Eonwe Valar: Cirdan may have had the general protection of Ossë/Ulmo, being on the sea.
Eonwe Valar: It doesn't seem Sauron's or Morgoth's minion's liked being around the sea much, seeing as the Noldor were never attacked from the Sea during the First Age.
Eonwe Valar: Mankind being a general exception.
Elwing V: they did seem to have a preference for fiery, dry desolate areas - the sea, nice and cool and wet, is teeming with life
Eonwe Valar: And the power of Ulmo, and Ossë, one of Ulmo's Maiar, has a mean streak about him. Not a good guy to get on the wrong side of, and Sauron's/Melkor's minions tend to make a good target without getting into too much trouble, heh.
Elwing V: true :-)
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, let's turn to Narya now. Original keep was Cirdan, given by Cirdan to Gandalf.
Eonwe Valar: Let's dig out Cirdan's words upon that gifting real quick.
Elwing V: possibly because Gandalf wandered around more, he'd make it more useful
Eonwe Valar: Well,on the surface, there was no indication Gandalf's path would be any different from any of the other Istari.
Eonwe Valar: Appendix B of LotR says the following:
Eonwe Valar: "For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any in Middle-Earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.
Elwing V: maybe the ring itself had some "say" in the matter :-)
Eonwe Valar: 'Take this ring, master,' he said,' for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself.
Eonwe Valar: For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows cold.
Elwing V: nice play on words
Eonwe Valar: But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."
AriehnV: oh welll i guess my bed awaits me now :-)
Eonwe Valar: Having lived in Middle-Earth for about 9000 years probably helps him see further and deeper than all others :}
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
AriehnV: and you too , all , see ye next weel
AriehnV: NamarieQ
Elwing V: Pleasant dreams :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Cirdan's quote pretty much says it all about Narya ;}
Elwing V: was anything similar said when GilGalad got his ring, or gave it to Elrond? (I know the circumstances weren't similar there)
Eonwe Valar: Leading us right into Vilya :} No, at least not as far as we've been told.
Eonwe Valar: It simply says that Gil-Galad gave Vilya to Elrond.
Elwing V: no version of "this ring is meant to....." for either Vilya or Nenya?
Eonwe Valar: Well, Nenya was given to Galadriel directly by Celebrimbor.
Eonwe Valar: There's probably something he told to her when he gave it to her, but that requires me going to my bookshelf.
Eonwe Valar: I'd have to pull out Unfinished Tales to check for that.
Elwing V: it could wait :}
Elwing V: I may have that in the deep recessed of my cluttered shelves...
Elwing V: getting pretty close to supper time anyway...I think I have a better grasp of their use at this point :}
Eonwe Valar: ok :}
Eonwe Valar: Shall we call it here then?
arwenv1: :-)
Elwing V: I think we covered it quite nicely :-)
Eonwe Valar: ok :}
Eonwe Valar: Then I will bang the gavel here and we can move to After-meeting :}
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*

arwenv1: cool :-)
Eonwe Valar: Ok, After-meting :} Now let's talk about Ancalagon's riddle :}
Elwing V: I'm logging off for supper. Thanks for a neat meet :-)
Elwing V: namarie
Elwing V has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: If there's anyone to disucssion Ancalagon's riddle here anyway :}
Fladrifv: Namarie all
Eonwe Valar: Take care Fladrif :}
arwenv1: hehe
Eonwe Valar: So anyone still here willing to discuss Ancalagon's riddle, maybe Ancalagon himself? :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, guess not :}
Fladrifv has left the room.
arwenv1: =o I'm waiting to see if installing wow will give me the same error it didi the first time
Eonwe Valar: Ah. Good luck :}
arwenv1: thanks :-)
ArathornValar has left the room.
arwenv1: I'm going to scoot so i can switch clients back to the one I like again :-)
arwenv1: see you later!
arwenv1 has left the room.
Sarujil: im back :-)
Eonwe Valar: Welcome back :}
Eonwe Valar: I'm pretty much out of good answers for your riddle, heh.
Sarujil: well im happy to listen if you want to discuss it :-) ill give hints on this one, i suppose, since it's so difficult
Eonwe Valar: Well, I've recalled about as many things in the SIlmarillion with a relationship to the number 5 that I could think of, I've exhausted all the individualswhich friends riding on their shoulders that I can think of,..
Eonwe Valar: which = with
Eonwe Valar: I think I've covered all the symbollic uses of "tongue" that come to mind.
Sarujil: ill give you a hint about the friend riding on shoulder thing: take that one as unliterally as you can :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, that still leaves only Thorondor as far as I can recall.
Sarujil: still too literal
Sarujil: theres a trick to this, and once you figure it out, you'll get it easily
Sarujil: trick to this riddle, that is
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure I can get very figurative with "indivudal, though a friend rides upon his shoulders",...
Eonwe Valar: It indicates something sitting upon another thing at the very least.
Sarujil: yes thats probably true :-)
Sarujil: and id say, that interpretation you have right there is as literal as id go with it
Eonwe Valar: Well let's see, Mim sits upon the gold of Nargothrond, Glaurung sits upon it before him,...
Eonwe Valar: though gold is not even in the shape of an individual..
Eonwe Valar: There are no mentioned of pukel-men in the Silmarillion.
Sarujil: shape of an individual? thats an interesting way to put it
Eonwe Valar: I don't recall warriders being in the Sil.
Eonwe Valar: Well, when you say "individual" it's meaning is usually a person. I already stretched that standard interpretation to include Thorondor and Huan, neither of which fit.
Sarujil: not necessarily :-) an individual could mean one thing as opposed to many
Eonwe Valar: I suppose Celegorm and Curufin were mentioend to be riding horses when they chased down Luthien.
Eonwe Valar: Individual as a word by itself usually means a person :}
Sarujil: thats just a connotation :-)
Eonwe Valar: I.e. used as a noun. used as an adjective, it qulaifies something else ;}
Eonwe Valar: *qualifies
Sarujil: i chose that word for a specific purpose, and when you get the riddle, youll see why :-)
Eonwe Valar: The first line shows that the time period is no further back than the rising of the Moon.
Sarujil: that would only be true if the moon in question is the literal moon
Eonwe Valar: Well, there would be no moon to use as a symbol before the rising of the Moon.
Eonwe Valar: Before the Moon there were the Trees, and before them the Lamps. Before that, nothing really except scattered light.
Sarujil: yep.
Sarujil: that has no bearing on my riddle however :-)
Eonwe Valar: used symbolically, it would typcially be the emblem of a house.
Eonwe Valar: royal or noble house.
Eonwe Valar: Fëanor had seven sons, Fingolfin had three, Finarfin had five, but Finarfin was not right and the other two did not fit.
Eonwe Valar: Eldar was not right, the Men who crossed into Beleriand was not right.
Eonwe Valar: Symbollicly, tongue typically means language.
Sarujil: thats if that line actually means tongue :-)
Eonwe Valar: I would ask what else "rolls" in the mouth that would be use in the Sil. I don't think anyone smoked cigars, and if a tooth is rolling in the mouth, it's time to seek a dentist.
Sarujil: i dont know if dentists were in use in the sil :-)
Sarujil: although there was that one really short elf who hung around with a deer...
Glorfindel VG: a tongue rolls in the mouth but is never eaten
Sarujil: i dunno, some cultures eat tongue
Sarujil: but anyway, you guys are still being too literal :-)
Eonwe Valar: It is not eaten by the person who keeps it in their mouth.
Glorfindel VG: probably the dwarves
Eonwe Valar: Ok, so I guess we need to examine the word mouth, and think about what all a mouth can be used to describe.
Eonwe Valar: mouth of a cave,..
Sarujil: lol
Eonwe Valar: Otherwise, if we're talking about the mouth of a living creature, the only answer that makes sense is tongue.
Eonwe Valar: mouthof Sauron, but he wasn't in the Sil.
Eonwe Valar: Mouthof a spider, mandibles perhgaps.
Sarujil: hehehe, im so devious
Eonwe Valar: boulders roll in a cave.
Glorfindel VG: can you post the riddle here, the server on the website is being slow
Eonwe Valar: Sure
Eonwe Valar: Five I am numbered
Eonwe Valar: In name but not in truth
Eonwe Valar: All the parts of me belong to me
Eonwe Valar: But all of them alone are not my whole
Eonwe Valar: My First is the crescent moon
Eonwe Valar: Waning in the darkling sky
Eonwe Valar: My Second is an individual
Eonwe Valar: Though a friend rides upon his shoulders
Eonwe Valar: My Third does roll in the mouth
Eonwe Valar: But never is it eaten or drunk
Eonwe Valar: My Fourth and Fifth lie together
Eonwe Valar: And together inside do they lie
Eonwe Valar: That's it.
Glorfindel VG: thanks
Eonwe Valar: MP
Eonwe Valar: Guesses so fgar have been:
Sarujil: in all honesty, the first four lines are a separate riddle, and give a hint as to the trick to the second riddle
Eonwe Valar: Silmaril
Eonwe Valar: Children of Finarfin, Valacirca, Menelvagor,
Eonwe Valar: Turin, War of the Jewels, Eldar, Istari, Beren and Luthien, groups of Men who came to Beleriand.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, how about this one: Sight, smell, taste, touch, and hearing. That's five, and some people like to think there's a "sixth" sense :}
Eonwe Valar: Oko, I'm going to throw an answer on the forum if it'll let me.
Sarujil: a little too general for a riddle about the sil :-)
Eonwe Valar: Posting.
Eonwe Valar: Posted
Sarujil: replied
Eonwe Valar: Heh, didn't think it was Maiar.
Sarujil: well, i could give some more hints, if you want to accept them
Eonwe Valar: I
Eonwe Valar: 'll leave that decision to Glorfindel. Personally, I've exhausted every option coming to mind except dragons, and I doubt it's them as well.
Eonwe Valar: I know it's not Iluvatar, the Valar, the Silmarilli, the Palantiri, the Rings of Power, the Realms of the Eldar, the continents of Middle-Earth,..
Glorfindel VG: im going to post one guess
Glorfindel VG: then i would be fine with getting hints
Eonwe Valar: The number of Balrogs, Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, Ringil, Glamdring, Aranruth, Gurthang/Anglachel, Anguirel,..
Eonwe Valar: Eol the Dark Elf, Cirdan of the Havens, Ents, Dwarves, Gondolin, Nargothrond, the Companions of Turin, the Companions of Barahir, Mim the Petty-Dwarf,..
Eonwe Valar: I'll stop there ,heh.
Sarujil: well if you do eliminate all the things it cant be, the only thing left must be the answer
Sarujil: or as sherlock holmes puts it: "When you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth."
Glorfindel VG: lol
Glorfindel VG: Lets get those hints :-)
Eonwe Valar: Ok, then I'll keep eliminating, heh. It's not the ages of Arda, the number of Constellations, Ungoliant, Melkor, Sauron, Minas Tirith, Ar-Pharazon,..
Sarujil: not a bad guess Glorfindel, but sadly, incorrect.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, ther eare seven gates to gondolin.
Eonwe Valar: *there are.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, here's another fun guess going up.
Eonwe Valar: Posted.
Glorfindel VG: i think it has something to do with beren maybe
Sarujil: well, my first hint would be to try not to think about the numbers, or what things might satisfy the descriptions given in each couplet. Instead, try to think what those descriptions could represent.
Eonwe Valar: I tried guessing Beren and Luthien already.
Eonwe Valar: That's what I've been doing, heh :}
Eonwe Valar: Bah, that should be Ered Engryn.
Sarujil: perhaps. try it line by line, starting with the moon line
Sarujil: well, when i say line, i mean couplet
Eonwe Valar: Well, as I said, if it's symbolic, something like that would be the crest of a royal or noble family.
Sarujil: something like what?
Eonwe Valar: If it indicates time, it's literal.
Eonwe Valar: something like the a crescent moon.
Sarujil: which crescent moon?
Eonwe Valar: waning on a dark background could describe the colors behind the moon on the crest.
Sarujil: well the two descriptive words in that sentence are darkling and waning. what do those mean?
Eonwe Valar: Such a crest would probably be borne by Fingolfin, seeing as he was the leader of the Noldor across the Helcaraxe, marching up to the gates of Thangorodrim as the moon rose.
Eonwe Valar: darlking means dark or getting darker.
Eonwe Valar: *darkling
Eonwe Valar: weaning means getting smaller or weaker.
Eonwe Valar: *waning
Sarujil: ok hopefully darkling is describing the time of day. that doesnt really effect the moon itself all that much
Sarujil: but a waning moon is something special...
Eonwe Valar: Well, darkling describing time of day would typically mean the day is coming to an end, moving into night, when the moon shows.
Sarujil: yeah but the moon can be seen in daylight too. but, thats just because Arien is so hot, so to speak :-)
Sarujil: anyway, what does the moon have that the sun, and most other heavenly bodies, do not have?
Eonwe Valar: In Arda?
Eonwe Valar: That it came before the sun and that it has a monthly cycle. That's about it.
Sarujil: this particular thing is present in both arda and modern day lunicity :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well then, that it has a monthly cycle.
Eonwe Valar: That it's not as hot as Anar.
Sarujil: a monthly cycle eh? of what?
Glorfindel VG: shapes
Eonwe Valar: That Morgoth apparently wasn't afraid to assail it at least once.
Sarujil: shapes? give an example?
Glorfindel VG: crescent quarter half full etc
Eonwe Valar: the moon goes from "new", waxes to "full" then wanes again to "new". In the "new" phase, it is not seen.
Sarujil: ooh crescent
Sarujil: oh waning too eh?
Sarujil: i wonder, could there be a crescent shape when the moon is waning?
Eonwe Valar: Both words you already used.
Eonwe Valar: SO, what we're looking for is something that looks like a backwards "c"...
Eonwe Valar: or a parenthesis
Sarujil: depends on if thats what the moon looks like in a waning crescent
Eonwe Valar: Last I checked.
Sarujil: take a look at this chart: e3/Phases_of_the_Moon.png
Glorfindel VG: should be the C shape then
Eonwe Valar: Just checked my encyclopedia. Been a while since I've actually had time to look at the moon.
Eonwe Valar: so we have a C
Eonwe Valar: A C shaped something at a certain time of day.
Eonwe Valar: Shall we consider the second couplet now?
Glorfindel VG: please
Eonwe Valar: "My Second is an individual/Though a friend rides upon his shoulders"
Sarujil: i think i gave you guys way too much help on the first one, so why dont you two discuss the second couplet :-)
Glorfindel VG: could be a horse
Glorfindel VG: a C-horse
Sarujil: lol
Eonwe Valar: Well if we assume shape is the linking factor, I'd say this could be a j or an i, or maybe a B.
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Glorfindel VG: or an l
Glorfindel VG: i seems good
Glorfindel VG: T
Glorfindel VG: P
Glorfindel VG: lol
Eonwe Valar: T is a single item though. lower case i and j both have a "firend" that rides upon their "shoulders" and to an extent so does "B".
Eonwe Valar: *friend
Eonwe Valar: B looks like two Ds
Glorfindel VG: lets try i
Eonwe Valar: so ci
Eonwe Valar: The third line is apparently not a tongue, or I'
Eonwe Valar: d say "u" would be the next letter.
Eonwe Valar: third line = third couplet
Glorfindel VG: Well it cant be T thats for sure
Glorfindel VG: people drink that all the time
Eonwe Valar: chewing gum, heh.
Eonwe Valar: gums and teeth don't "roll"
Eonwe Valar: unless we're supposed to make a connection to "rolling hills" which seems a bit far to go for a riddle.
Glorfindel VG: unless its a reference to a different kind of mouth of course
Eonwe Valar: This isn't "Seven Stages of Separation Tolkien Style" after all.
Eonwe Valar: well, there's mouthof a cave, mouthof a river...
Eonwe Valar: rocks roll in a cave, water sometimes rolls at the mouth of a river.
Eonwe Valar: but water is drunk.
Eonwe Valar: some animals eat rocks.
Glorfindel VG: tongue really seems like the plausible answer
Eonwe Valar: Ancalagon already indicated that's too literal.
Glorfindel VG: ohh really
Eonwe Valar: even when I took it symbolically.
Sarujil: maybe you didnt take it far enough :-)
Glorfindel VG: language?
Glorfindel VG: speech?
Glorfindel VG: song?
Glorfindel VG: words
Eonwe Valar: tried language speech and I believe words.
Eonwe Valar: though words mostly fall under all three of those.
Glorfindel VG: C I N D A R
Glorfindel VG: lol
Sarujil: thats 6
Glorfindel VG: yeah i knbow
Glorfindel VG: but its the only thing i can think of that starts CI
Glorfindel VG: CIRDAN
Glorfindel VG: haha
Eonwe Valar: As far as the fourth and fifth, I would say it would be a shape like "w" or "M"
Glorfindel VG: together inside do they lie
Glorfindel VG: what could that mean though
Eonwe Valar: ok, let's try this.
Eonwe Valar: the 5 indicates 5 consonants.
Eonwe Valar: the parts that finished making up the whole are vowels.
Eonwe Valar: so the clues only give us consonants.
Glorfindel VG: so I wont work then
Eonwe Valar: Which means this is a name written in Tengwar.
Glorfindel VG: we can try J
Eonwe Valar: What names have a J in them though.
Eonwe Valar: We have C for the first. The second can be B most probable.
Eonwe Valar: the third part can indicate a labial, namely a consonant pronounced with the use of the tongue.
Eonwe Valar: of course this means the question is no longer contained within the Sil because one must use RotK to answer the question.
Eonwe Valar: Appendix E I believe discusses Languages and Writing.
Glorfindel VG: please stop us now if were in the wrong direction anc lol
Eonwe Valar: I really think the complexity of this question is leaving the realm of riddles anyway.
Glorfindel VG: i agree
Glorfindel VG: lets go back to CI
Sarujil: youre.... partly in the wrong direction
Sarujil: i'll give a huge hint: the 5 does not indicate 5 consonants
Sarujil: and the answer is completely contained within the sil
Eonwe Valar: I don't mean the path we're going, I mean the apparent use of symbolism in the question.
Eonwe Valar: If it's a symbol for a letter, I'm pretty sure we're getting into encryption here.
Eonwe Valar: "partly in the wrong direction" indicates to me that perhaps at least we were on the right track assuming the word is spelled out in Tengwar fashion for us.
Eonwe Valar: so looking strictly for consonants would be the key still.
Sarujil: ill tell ya, i dont know enough about tengwar to use it over the roman alphabet, even in the context of a riddle
Eonwe Valar: Well then I'm going to just throw out that the answer is Cirth.
Eonwe Valar: 5 letters and it almost seems the right direction.
Sarujil: if i were using an alphabet at all
Eonwe Valar: "rolls" in the mouth in certain languages.
Eonwe Valar: *r "rolls"
Eonwe Valar: t and H lie together in the sound "th"
Eonwe Valar: attempt posted.
Sarujil: reply posted
Eonwe Valar: That seems a bit far to go for a riddle.
Eonwe Valar: Glorfindel, would you like to post a Silmarillion trivia question?
Sarujil: i deliberately made it difficult, but a trick that made it much simpler if you figure it out.
Eonwe Valar: Yes, well, You better stay away from Gotham City for a while, Riddler, heh.
Eonwe Valar: The teeth pulling for that one reminds me of Batman.
Sarujil: so, what brought up the idea of cirth for you initially?
Eonwe Valar: 18 riddlers just to pull one letter from each to find the answer.
Eonwe Valar: that we got as far as "Ci" and that it had 5 letters.
Eonwe Valar: *18 riddles
Eonwe Valar: I share credit on that riddle with Glorfindel.
Sarujil: its appropriate i thought :-) letters for a system of writing
Eonwe Valar: Especially reminds me of Jim Carry's Riddler in Batman Forever: get the answers to the riddle, but then pull the numbers used in the riddles, figure out the letter value for the numbers, then firgure out a synonym to the word spelle
Eonwe Valar: d.
Sarujil: i wasnt that obtuse :-)
Eonwe Valar: You were not far behind that many steps :}
Eonwe Valar: As I said, Glorfindel, are you interested in giving a Silmarillion trivia question?
Sarujil: well, i don't think i was out of line on the riddle. my view is that a riddle appears to be pointing a certain way, until you turn it around a bit and find its pointing much more clearly in a totally different direction
Eonwe Valar: The problem is that if you make it too involved then you lose a group of people who might otherwise have taken a shot at answering.
Eonwe Valar: That really is one that someone would have to stare at for several hours.
Sarujil: well i dont get any satisfaction if someone gets it on the first guess. my objective is precisely to get people to think
Eonwe Valar: I agree, as should be obvious by my last riddle, heh.
Sarujil: yeah mine was just revenge for yours hehe
Eonwe Valar: Well, you've got it then, heh.
Sarujil: i agree partially with you though
Sarujil: trivia is not really designed to try to stump people, but to surprise them with little known facts
Sarujil: riddles however, are designed to stump
Sarujil: maybe we should the riddles off from the trivia
Sarujil: split*
Eonwe Valar: I wouldn't say rule them out completely, but the complexity should be limited slightly.
Eonwe Valar: I have considered a separate thread for riddle, though, aye.
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure that the riddle-form key for your riddle was very helpful.
Sarujil: the riddle form key?
Eonwe Valar: "Five I am numbered/In name but not in truth/All the parts of me belong to me/But all of them alone are not my whole."
Eonwe Valar: You said basically that was the key.
Eonwe Valar: If I understood you corectly.
Eonwe Valar: *correctly
Sarujil: oh :-) technically, you could get the answer just from those lines, but too many other answer also work
Eonwe Valar: Not really. That four-line piece tells nothing about Cirth except that it has 5 letters.
Sarujil: thats true. Cirth 'in name' has five letters, but 'in truth' has many more
Eonwe Valar: That's a bit vague.
Sarujil: all the letter that make up the word cirth are part of the cirth, but those 5 letters are not all the letters that are in the cirth
Eonwe Valar: Well, techinically, "C-I-R-T-H" are not in Cirth.
Eonwe Valar: The sounds used are represented by a different lettering system.
Sarujil: ok, an untranslated cirth would be in the cirth. but i thought it would be too cruel, as you said before, to use a different alphabet for my answer
Sarujil: well, anyway, im not going to apologize for creating an exceptionally tricky riddle. If it was unsolvable due to the way it was written, that would be different, but I dont believe it was.
Sarujil: I will, however, endeavor to tone down the difficulty in the future
Sarujil: well, im gonna take off. good job on the riddle, see you guys later
Sarujil has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Guess I'm too late to say good night to Ancalagon.
Eonwe Valar: Still ther eGlorfindel?
Glorfindel VG: just got back
Eonwe Valar: Well welcome back then :}
Glorfindel VG: i see the answer is indeed cirth
Glorfindel VG: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Yep.
Glorfindel VG: very nice guess i thought we'd never get it
Eonwe Valar: You get half credit since I wouldn't have got it tonight without your help.
Glorfindel VG: hehe thanks
Eonwe Valar: Would you like to ask the next Sil question?
Eonwe Valar: I still need to come up with one for the LotRO thread.
Eonwe Valar: *LotR
Glorfindel VG: i think you better do the honors since you were the main brain for answering the riddle
Eonwe Valar: Ok
Glorfindel VG: to be honest i think you would have gotten it without my help just the same :-)
Eonwe Valar: Eventually.perhaps, as there are only a limited number of words in the Silmarillion :}
Glorfindel VG: hehe
Glorfindel VG: man that was a though one though wasnt it
Glorfindel VG: well good job
Glorfindel VG: i better be off now
Glorfindel VG: see u next week
Glorfindel VG: good night
Eonwe Valar: Think I'm going to take a break from writing riddles though. Back to just finding suffienctly obscure info, heh.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, it was tough.
Eonwe Valar: Take care Glorfindel, good night, and sleep well :}
Glorfindel VG: you too
Glorfindel VG has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: I guess I'll head out as well.
Eonwe Valar: Take care Gilraen, good night, sleep well, and have fun.