Valar Guild

October 7, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (9)
    Ancalagon-(V)/ Sarujil, Arathorn Valar, ArPharazonV, Arwen-(V), Eonwe Valar, Fladrifv, Farmer Maggot-(V)/ thesirg3, Pallando Valar, VardaValar1 (presiding).

Meeting begins
    Tenth Anniversary end of the week meeting.
    Eonwe Valar: The choices of people had an impact of the fates of their kingdoms, their people, and their lines. Usually they greatly affected the longevity of the aforementioned.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1: Aiya!
Sarujil: welcome back varda
VardaValar1: Thanks!
Eonwe Valar: Welcome back :}
ArPharazonV: everything allright with the pc?
VardaValar1: Big storm over here, tons of thunder.
ArPharazonV: youch
VardaValar1: Restarted the comp and it is runnng ok now.
VardaValar1: Farmer came in whilst I was out! Heya : )
thesirg3: aye, heya
Eonwe Valar: Ack, sorry to hear that Varda.
Pallando Valar: farmer, what's your steamid?
thesirg3: dunno
thesirg3: I use `sir3` to log in
thesirg3: I usually just add people in-game :-P
Pallando Valar: rmbadescu display name?
thesirg3: would have to reboot to see, working right now
thesirg3: sorry
Pallando Valar: s'okay.
VardaValar1: Just completed invites to those I see
Pallando Valar: private profile? bah.
thesirg3: I'll be half here half working
VardaValar1: Let's start the official end meeting for the Tenth Anniversary :-)

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: This is really and truly our Tenth year as a guild. I'm very proud of all of you for making this happen!
VardaValar1: Many people have participated in many creative ideas for this week's celebration, yay for all of you!
VardaValar1: Would anyone like to comment?
ArPharazonV: ..10 more?
VardaValar1: Sounds good!
VardaValar1: I suggest that we have our big remember when fest after the meeting, could go for hours.

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: Articles:
VardaValar1: I haven't quite caught up on all you folks have sent this week for the anniversary, but getting close. : )
VardaValar1: Ancalagon, who is here, sent in The Corruption of the Lord of the Rings
VardaValar1: Interesting piece, enjoyed it, Anc!
VardaValar1: Arveleg has been working extremely hard on an event timeline and completed it through the First Age of the Sun, which he said is the longest part.
VardaValar1: He hopes to hit it again for Christmas.
VardaValar1: The Complete Chronology of the First Age of Ea
VardaValar1: _Age.htm
VardaValar1: Barahir sent in a special poem for the Tenth
VardaValar1: A lot of stories came in as specials for the occasion:
VardaValar1: The Game of Kings by Branwyn-(TV)
VardaValar1: One by Eonwe who is here : )
VardaValar1: Revelation: What Evil Fears by Eonwe-(Valar)
VardaValar1: Fladrif, who is here, sent in Roots Up: An Ent's Tale
VardaValar1: 7sTale.htm
VardaValar1: and he also did A Song the Size of the World and illustrated it!
ArPharazonV: with a new addition to the English dictionary, sungvention!
VardaValar1: Jay of Lasgalen sent in "Old Swords" but I seem not to have put up the link on the News page *wince*.
VardaValar1: hehe, Phar! Aye, he did.
VardaValar1: Brotherly Love by Jay of Lasgalen used to be a drabble series called Charity Begins at Home.
VardaValar1: A new project has been started by Ancalagon and Fladrif. Flad, would you like to tell about it?
Fladrifv: sure
Fladrifv: We had the idea to make a card game of the silmarillion so that everyone can play it for free and battle against eachother
Fladrifv: It will be based on MTG
Fladrifv: at the current stage we need the help of all of you see forum post board=gamesgeneral&action=display&threa d=1191782335
VardaValar1: MtG=Magic the Gathering
Fladrifv: thanks varda
Fladrifv: it will consist of 256 cards
Fladrifv: and we will have an online program to battle against eachother
Fladrifv: if all goes well we can have a tournament with it
Fladrifv: so please fill the forum with known and less know characters and help with the valar guild game!
Fladrifv: Anything more Ancalagon?
ArPharazonV: I gave you a ton of names yesterday in msn, Flad, do you still have those? :-)
Fladrifv: aye, can you add them to the forum so we have them including description Arphar?
Sarujil: Nothing that comes readily to mind, Flad.
ArPharazonV: hmm, must see if I can still find the conversation... but descriptions will be a bit harder
VardaValar1: Thank you's to both Fladrif and Ancalagon for working on this. Let's support them by helping come up with cards on the forum, or at least looking at it.
Fladrifv: If anyone want to join the core development team feel free
VardaValar1: How do they join up,
VardaValar1: Fladrif?
Fladrifv: you can mail me
Fladrifv: on my guild email then I will explain some more
VardaValar1: Thank you. We appreciate the trouble you've gone through : )
VardaValar1: Also, we appreciate all of you who have helped with the Tenth Anniversary Chat Weeklong Marathon!
VardaValar1: All of you here are to be commended. : )
VardaValar1: Currently we have 9 on: Pharazon, Arathorn, Eonwe, Ancalagon, Pallando, Farmer Maggot, Fladrif, Arwen, and myself. : )
VardaValar1: Any more for Web? Eonwe maybe?
ArPharazonV: And that takes care of recording who's present at the meeting..
VardaValar1: More may come in later, often happens.
ArPharazonV: but their departures and entries will show up in the transcript
VardaValar1: All here have also helped with the Marathon.
VardaValar1: Aye.

VardaValar1: Gaming!
VardaValar1: For WoW, Eonwe came up with an idea for a Tourney game, and had the fun of attempting to try it out through lag Friday. :-)
VardaValar1: How did that go, Eonwe?
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, was just typing it up on the forum :}
VardaValar1: ahh, we can wait a sec : )
VardaValar1: WoW has been quite busy all week
Eonwe Valar: Well, I'm still in the explaining stages on that thread, so I might as well do it here too :}
VardaValar1: Currently we have some of my family gaming there, and they say hi!
VardaValar1: Feel free!
VardaValar1: Europe might like to try this out too.
Eonwe Valar: I got the idea for this when reading over some of our old tourneys on the Tourneys page (linked in the Games Page under "Archives" in the menu)
VardaValar1: We used to do those a lot. : )
Eonwe Valar: I was looking for something that could be used in MMOs and was fairly versatile. This is what I finally settled on:
Eonwe Valar: A scoring system coupled with keeping track of time. The formula for the scoring system is as follows:
Eonwe Valar: [(median instance level * max number of players allowed in instance) / (sum of player levels)]
Eonwe Valar: Multiply this by score as will be explained momentarily.
Eonwe Valar: Median instance level can be obtained simply by looking at the meetingstone and taking the average of that level range.
Eonwe Valar: Max number of players allows this to be applied not just to 5-mans, but to raids as well.
ArPharazonV: so you get 1 if your entire full party has the exact level as the median of the instance?
Eonwe Valar: the sum total of the levels is ofg course the sum of the levels of players going into the instance.
ArPharazonV: more than 1 if your levels are lower than the instance, and less than 1 if your levels are higher?
Eonwe Valar: Something like that.
Eonwe Valar: It favors small groups with low levels, but it allows in a general way for anyone of any level who can get into that instance to join in.
Pallando Valar: Hrm. But in eve you could fit (in theroy) 120,000 people in a complex..this could be an isse for my scores. :-(
ArPharazonV: you'd get huge scores then!
thesirg3: back in a few
Eonwe Valar: As levels go up, theoretically you will be able to go through faster.
thesirg3 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: So the score favors small groups with low levels, while the time favors high levels and larger groups.
Pallando Valar: Also, the lack of levels. Definatly the lack of levels will create an issue.
Eonwe Valar: Both are kept track of.
Eonwe Valar: hehe, well I'm sure we could figure out something for EVE :} But this should work fine for LotRO and WoW.
Pallando Valar: I'm just giving you a hard time. :p
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: well, it's mathematically impossible to divide by 0, so a game without levels would be hard...
ArPharazonV: sorry, must resist applying all the math I've been getting in the past month of my study
Eonwe Valar: By the way, you can also do a timed run with this, say a 1-hour run and see how far you get.
thesirg3 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Is everyone with me so far, so I can go on to scoring? Or is there something I should explain better?
VardaValar1: Welcome back, Farmer : )
thesirg3: thanks :-)
Eonwe Valar: Welcome back Farmer :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, scoring:
ArPharazonV: how does the time fit into what we've learned so far?
Eonwe Valar: Time is kept as a separate item.
Eonwe Valar: You have score, and you have time.
Eonwe Valar: So highest score with fastest time is the record, more or less.
ArPharazonV: allright
VardaValar1: (Drag in Valandil)
Eonwe Valar: Scoring is done by how many bosses you kill, so keep track of these for the tourney report.
Eonwe Valar: There is a clear bonus, but you have to clear the entire instance for it (all creatures, excluding respawns and certain conditional boss summons like the Paladin epic quest in Scholomance, though you can use that boss for your score
Eonwe Valar: if you kill him)
Eonwe Valar: I exclude respawns because if you wipe and end up having to refight them, you're already losing time.
Eonwe Valar: Clock should be running from first attack to final attack.
Eonwe Valar: Like in our old tourneys.
VardaValar1: Stopwatch is good.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
ArPharazonV: final attack? final attack on the last boss (killing blow), or the beginning of the final bossfight?
Eonwe Valar: the killing blow.
VardaValar1: Sometimes a person falls off the internet. Time stops and everyone tries to stop until he rejoins, except survival needs.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, if something happens and you have to stop the clock, make sure it's after you finish whatever battle you're in, and that you don't continue the fight any further until everyone is ready again.
VardaValar1: Aye, finish the battle if you're in one. No sense in wiping the party.
Eonwe Valar: I've kind of been deciding on the actual number to scoring, as I don't want to have super high numbers. I think a simple 10 points per boss and 100 for clear time works out best to keep numbers manageable even in raids.
Eonwe Valar: I decided this after the tourney run Friday night, having actual data to work with.
Eonwe Valar: So now with that explained, I'll move to the tourney report :}
VardaValar1: How it actually worked out the very first time tried. : )
Eonwe Valar: There were five of us:
Eonwe Valar: Sauron on his lvl 70 Warlock
Eonwe Valar: Me on my lvl 70 Paladin.
Eonwe Valar: Arwen on her lvl 70 Priest.
Eonwe Valar: Dracxil (guild friend, my brother) on his lvl 68 paladin.
Eonwe Valar: Fangorn on his level 70 Warrior.
Eonwe Valar: Total levels = 348
Eonwe Valar: Our target was Scholomance, a fairly safe test instance for a first go.
Eonwe Valar: We had an interesting time at first. We had a bit of lag to deal with, but surprisingly not as much as Dracxil and I have had when we've been there by ourselves.
Eonwe Valar: We had a few very tough battles, because, as we found out when we ended up with Rattlegore in the Dragon room, Sauron's AoEs were going through the floot.
Eonwe Valar: *floor.
VardaValar1: And Elwing and Eowyn cheering you on from the sidelines!
Eonwe Valar: Thus in several battles we were not simply fighting what we had in front of us, but a few groups of guys from below who decided they wanted a piece of the fight.
VardaValar1: oops.
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately, this and lag did manage to cause a couple of deaths early on, but after we dealt with Rattlegore we cut back on the AoEs.
Eonwe Valar: Things went smoother at that point.
Eonwe Valar: We cleared out the entire instance, minus only the Paladin epic mount quest boss.
Eonwe Valar: It does include Kirtonos the Herald, who was our first boss killed.
Eonwe Valar: In total, we killed 13 bosses.
VardaValar1: Nice!
Eonwe Valar: So, with a total of 130 bosses killed and a full clear bonus of 100,..
ArPharazonV: oh, one more thing, what happens when instances of varying levels use the same meeting stone?
Eonwe Valar: We acheived a score of 198.3
Eonwe Valar: There has to be somewhere you can find the level range for a particular instance.
Eonwe Valar: I know blizzard has the old instances and their level ranges listed on their website. I would hope they've done the same with Burning Crusade instances.
ArPharazonV: hmm, allright
VardaValar1: WoW meeting stones tend to say what level the instance is for
VardaValar1: If the group is in that range, it should be no problem.
Eonwe Valar: If it really comes down to it, just use the monster levels of the instance. See what the lowest and highest level monsters are, take the average.
ArPharazonV: yes, but with things like Hellfire Citadel, Auchindoun, and Coilfang Reservoir, Varda, the instances differ in level, but use the same meeting stone
VardaValar1: True
arwenv1: there are addons that list instance levels as well
VardaValar1: Maybe Allakhazam : )
ArPharazonV: and what do these addons base their information on?
ArPharazonV: hmm... perhaps
arwenv1: I dont know :-)
VardaValar1: If you're doing a heroic instance, you want 70's anyway.
Eonwe Valar: To conclude my tourney report: Our clear time for this run was 2 hours.
Eonwe Valar: Once I get a few things done, this report will go up on Lothar's Events page on the Games Page.
VardaValar1: So what was your group's score?
Eonwe Valar: 198.3, rounding.
Eonwe Valar: Score: 198.3 with a clear time of 2 hours.
VardaValar1: Thanks
Eonwe Valar: MP.
VardaValar1: Uldaman was just Elwing and me, although we saw guild-friend Kragen on.
VardaValar1: Our friend channel is having problems. Password thing added, very annoying.
VardaValar1: Keeps out guild-friends.
VardaValar1: or part of them.
VardaValar1: Any Argent Dawn report?
Pallando Valar: wow forces a pw on private channels? that sounds silly.
VardaValar1: It is silly, new on the last patch.
VardaValar1: It has to do with their new voice chat.
VardaValar1: Not as good as the LotRO system which is for a fellowship/party.
VardaValar1: Pallando, would you like to do your Eve report now?
ArPharazonV: password on channels? never heard of that...
ArPharazonV: probably optional
Eonwe Valar: It is optional, but there.
VardaValar1: We got hit with it in Lothar, Quietdeath passworded our channel.
VardaValar1: Claimed he made the channel, so it was his and he could password it.
VardaValar1: Some Valarites counter-passworded it after he had to go.
Eonwe Valar: Despite the fact we've been using it for 3 years roundabouts :}
VardaValar1: Keep him from keeping them out.
VardaValar1: We've used that channel name since Diablo 1, actually.
VardaValar1: Figure he got tired of it and quit bothering us.
Eonwe Valar: I mean in WoW.
VardaValar1: Aye, since WoW started up, we've used it.
Eonwe Valar: Of course we've been using the name for 10 years now :}
VardaValar1: I think Pallando is afk
Pallando Valar: Nope
Pallando Valar: Just waitning for you to finish.
VardaValar1: Would you like to do your Eve report now, Pallando?
Pallando Valar: sure.
Pallando Valar: It consists fo three parts, to make myself feel important.
VardaValar1: You are, to us. :-)
Pallando Valar: first: My offer for a free month of eve is still available for those who have finished the 2 week trial or are in it and love eve already.
Pallando Valar: second: If you think eve really is for you, I have a limited time offer via ccp for a second account for 6 months at around 8/mo.
Pallando Valar: (vs 15 standard)
Pallando Valar: I'd be more than willing to do that and pass it on to a valar member if they would pay me back. :-)
Pallando Valar: Finally, this right here: hp?a=kill_related&kll_id=6667 is what ya'll are missing in eve.
Pallando Valar: On the left is my alliance and allies. (foundati0n) (I missed the battle, at work. :-( )
Pallando Valar: On the right are the hostiles aka the bad guys aka those punks aka -V-, INFOD, and Curse
Pallando Valar: if someone's name is orange, their ship got exploded.
ArPharazonV: it would seem you rather won that fight...
Pallando Valar: if the little pod-picture is there, they got podded too. (the second, often harsher part of pk'ing in eve)
Pallando Valar: We did. We held the field, so we got all the loot to boot. Even after reimbursing our pilots for their losses, returning our own loot, it looks like the battle may actually have been *profitable* for us.
VardaValar1: Congrats! :-)
Pallando Valar: If you count it up, they lost 30 out of 32 fielded battleships, ingame worth from 60-120m. :-)
Pallando Valar: (per ship)
Pallando Valar: Come pew pew with me. Great fun! :D
VardaValar1: Looks interesting. Wish I wasn't already heavily into two other MMORPG's already, but o well.
Pallando Valar: Also, the 4th alliance tournament (which has a huge upset in one of the final 16 matches
Pallando Valar: I can give a list of fun matches to watch for anyone interested.
Pallando Valar: and that's it from here. (notice the sneaky, unannounced 4th point.)
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Thank you, Pallando. :-)
VardaValar1: We can watch that board now and then to see how you're doing?
VardaValar1: Ok, on to Lord of the Rings Online. Ancalagon has a new project there, and made a new character to jump into it.
VardaValar1: Ancalagon, would you like to tell about it?
Pallando Valar: yeah. :-) I've been inactive recently, but the alliance is foundati0n and the character in there is debes sparre
VardaValar1: All fellow LotRO players can jump in.
VardaValar1: Ah, thanks. Needed that name!
Sarujil: ok well um...
VardaValar1: What is the project, Anc? :-)
Sarujil: When Varda and I went to the preview server to check out the kinship houses, our imaginations were fired up by the presence of a stage in each one
Sarujil: So we though "What cool things can we do with this?" and one of the ideas was forming a band to give concerts on it
Sarujil: Thanks to Lotro's robust music system it seems like a great idea!
VardaValar1: They keep adding to the music system too.
Sarujil: But this is just the planning stages, so we have a lot to work out. A band name, for instance
Sarujil: Any suggestions on that front would be welcome :-)
VardaValar1: Who plays what, how, when can we practice together.
VardaValar1: How about non-minstrel players?
Sarujil: Non minstrels can play lutes, horns, clarinets, and in book 11 they'll be able to learn the cowbell as well
VardaValar1: Who would like to learn to play
Sarujil: At the moment only minstrels can play the drums and the theorbo
Eonwe Valar: How about "Valar Guild Band" ? :}
VardaValar1: And there are ways to hook up with tabs and other music help.
VardaValar1: That could work.
VardaValar1: We may want to bring in some outside talent, guild-friends too.
Sarujil: seems a little .... expected :-)
Sarujil: maybe something culled from the books, like Gollum's Gutteral Sounds :-)
VardaValar1: hehe
Sarujil: the Pipeweed Players?
Eonwe Valar: Instruments of Valar? :}
VardaValar1: Smoke after a set : )
Eonwe Valar: *Instruments
VardaValar1: hmm. : )
Sarujil: Sharkey's All-time Great Barbershop Quartet
ArPharazonV: maybe a variation on the Ainulindale, Music of the Valar
VardaValar1: We could go to the music playing I think held Fridays at the Prancing Pony so people know we exist.
Sarujil: after a few rehearsals :-)
VardaValar1: Also, can do the traveling minstrel show one member suggested a while back.
VardaValar1: I forget who.
VardaValar1: Sort of like a tavern crawl, but with music.
VardaValar1: Some things to work towards.
VardaValar1: At inns or stable points maybe.
VardaValar1: or Ainulindale Lindir? : )
VardaValar1: Al for short.
VardaValar1: That project should probably be a new LotRO forum thread.
VardaValar1: Like to start it, Anc?
Sarujil: sure ill kick it up there in a bit
VardaValar1: Cool. : )
VardaValar1: LotRO housing is coming, and we need to be collecting gold for both personal and kinship housing.
VardaValar1: It has a small upkeep fee, to make sure housing is used by active players.
VardaValar1: Details of how the test server housing is doing are on the News for those who want a house. )
VardaValar1: Anc owns one on the test server, gave me a tour. : )
arwenv1 has left the room.
VardaValar1: Any other games that need to be mentioned?
ArPharazonV: spent a lot of time playing Dungeon Siege, if anyone knows the game or its sequel, and wants to try multiplayer...
VardaValar1: You do both I and II?
ArPharazonV: the sequel being called, unsurprisingly, Dungeon Siege II
ArPharazonV: I do
VardaValar1: How do they reach you?
ArPharazonV: I'm always on AIM when I'm behind the pc
Fladrifv: this ent is getting sleepy, namarie all
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Flad!
VardaValar1: Good night!
VardaValar1: Thank you for the marathoning, story, and art, Fladrif!
Fladrifv: and keep the card names coming!
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Fladrif :}
Sarujil: farewell flad
VardaValar1: and to you and Anc for starting the card game!
Fladrifv: I was really bussy this week
VardaValar1: aye! : )
VardaValar1: Is there any further business? We did so much this week that I may have missed something.

VardaValar1: If not, we're ready for Tolkien!
Eonwe Valar: Go answer the Silmarillion trivia question on the forum, everyone :}
VardaValar1: erm
Eonwe Valar: er, not right now!
Eonwe Valar: Styay for Tolkien :}
Sarujil: and the lotr one :-)
Eonwe Valar: But go do it during the week :}
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't seem there's any more business :}
VardaValar1: In a side window, we were discussing choices people, races, nations made.
VardaValar1: It fit in rather well with Ancalagon's new Corruption article.
Fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: The One Ring, famous for corrupting, seemed to find some people less ready to its will than others.
Eonwe Valar: The choices of people had an impact of the fates of their kingdoms, their people, and their lines. Usually they greatly affected the longevity of the aforementioned.
VardaValar1: If it tested various people through time, or groups, I wonder how they would have fared?
Eonwe Valar: The line of Luthien was said that it would never fail, and through three ages of the world it hasn't.
VardaValar1: And into the Fourth, where it reigned. : )
ArPharazonV: it was said of Aragorn's son there descended many kings over the world
ArPharazonV: so I'm betting traces can still be found :-)
VardaValar1: Most likely!
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Do you remember which book that came from? Interesting.
thesirg3 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: hmm, that's an interesting question
Eonwe Valar: The Lords of Andunie remained Faithful to the Valar, and because Amandil's family did not sail in Pharazon's fleet, they were able to save a remnant of the Faithful.
VardaValar1: A choice that saved their people from extinction.
ArPharazonV: let me check RotK
VardaValar1: Eldarion was Aragorn's son's name. The daughters were not given name.s
VardaValar1: Think Arwen was lucky to have a name. ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Oh for shame Varda :}
VardaValar1: bad me
VardaValar1: JRRT left out so many female names, makes some figuring tough.
VardaValar1: Thranduil must have had his son by himself, found under a cabbage leaf. ;-)
VardaValar1: I digress.
Eonwe Valar: He has so many other women's name though. Just many of them are Hobbits :} You're not saying you have something against Hobbits, are you? :}
VardaValar1: Longevity, which nations survived a long time?
VardaValar1: Hobbits are lovable.
VardaValar1: Ok, stand corrected. But let me know if you ever find out Gimli's mom' s name.
Eonwe Valar: Just about every non-Hobbit female that comes to mind has an importance in the story. Can't say that for all non-Hobbit men :}
VardaValar1: Elven nations tended to last a long time due to the longevity of the people.
VardaValar1: Rosie was a driving force for Sam to stay alive and return to the Shire.
ArPharazonV: nope, can't find the bit about Eldarion
ArPharazonV: do you know where the name Eldarion comes from, by any chance? it's not in the index to lotr
VardaValar1: Arwen gave Aragorn a continuing reason to become High King.
VardaValar1: Son of the elf. I think it was the Appendix.
VardaValar1: *elves, pardon
Eonwe Valar: Faithfulness to the Valar seems to have affected longevity as well. GOndolin and Nargothrond surived until nearly the end of the FirstAge.
ArPharazonV: yeah, I don't mean what the name means, but where the name is found, sorry :-)
VardaValar1: Appendix A
Eonwe Valar: *survived
VardaValar1: Just checked
ArathornValar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: hmm, can't find that statement there, but I know I found it somewhere...
ArPharazonV: anyway, Gondolin and Nargothrond had another thing going for them..
VardaValar1: In Aragorn and Arwen's story, Aragorn mentions his son by name, saying he needed to take the kingship, a man full grown.
ArPharazonV: they chose to hide
ArPharazonV: yes, I just saw that one
ArPharazonV: but the one about the many descendants isn't there
Eonwe Valar: Arnor was already in trouble, but the infighting between Earendur's sons divided and weakened the kingdom.
VardaValar1: Aye, not familiar to me, so I asked. Would guess HoMe.
ArPharazonV: aye, probably..
VardaValar1: Aye, if the people followed the ways of the Valar who made the world, they had a better chance of doing well.
VardaValar1: Kick against them, and they kicked against the way things were.
VardaValar1: Needed to work together, not fight each other and break up a kingdom between them.
VardaValar1: Rangers stuck together and finally came out well.
ArPharazonV: Numenor lasted long, and then we kicked against the Valar...
ArPharazonV: they kicked back hard!
Eonwe Valar: For a long time, even after they were no longer friendly towards the Valar, Numenor did not abandon its traditions, such as recording the names of kings in the High-Elven tongue, and Eruhantalë
Eonwe Valar: They "had a bad feeling" about doing that altogether.
VardaValar1: Numenor always had some who were Faithful.
ArPharazonV: in the days of Gimilzor and his grandson, those traditions didn't last long either
ArPharazonV: the Meneltarma was abandoned, even made offlimits, and the tree was cut down
VardaValar1: When one king tried to return to those ways, it was too late.
Eonwe Valar: The remnants of Dunedain in Cardolan and Rudhaur eventually fled into Arthedain.
VardaValar1: But Isildur took a fruit from the tree. : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye, it was too late when Palantir took the throne, and the work of trying to atone weighed on him heavily.
VardaValar1: Too many went against him.
VardaValar1: He even went back to using Tar, as Tar-Palantir.
ArPharazonV: hard to undo 1000 years of being unfriendly to the Valar
Eonwe Valar: Aye
ArPharazonV: he never got the majority of his people on his side
VardaValar1: The Numenoreans were so unpleasant to the elves, that they stopped visiting.
VardaValar1: Anything with long life at least to the end of Arda seemed an insult to the Numenoreans.
VardaValar1: I wonder how humans felt about that during the War of the Ring? Did they just not believe it?
ArPharazonV: I wonder what the Numenoreans thought of the Dwarves...
Eonwe Valar: The came to fear death. The shadow of their time beyond their recording had returned.
ArPharazonV: did they ever meet them?
ArPharazonV: they came all over the western regions of Eriador, surely they would have run into Dwarves?
VardaValar1: I don't remember the Numenoreans coming into contact with Dwarves.
VardaValar1: Maybe when they came to Middle-earth to trade?
Eonwe Valar: The Edain had fought alongside them in the Wars of Beleriand.
VardaValar1: True, they did.
Eonwe Valar: The Numenoreans made ports in many places. It's likely they came into contact with Dwarves beyond those of the Blue Mountains at some point.
ArPharazonV: surely they must have heard rumors of the Dwarves' sacking of Menegroth at the mouths of Sirion?
VardaValar1: The Dwarves bore their chief out, singing, and no one would stay them.
VardaValar1: So the Numenoreans, who were keen on treasure, might have been careful of the dwarves?
Eonwe Valar: Since the Dunedain of Arnor and Gondor are descendants of the Faithful of Numenor, I don't see why they would be particularly hostile towards Dwarves.
VardaValar1: Ok, Dunedain are different.
Eonwe Valar: The King's Men, who became "Balck Numenoreans" might've been.
VardaValar1: They were from the Faithful.
Eonwe Valar: *Black
Eonwe Valar: Pharazon may have obtained some of that treasure he was brining back from Dwarves in some manner, perhaps even war.
VardaValar1: If dwarves didn't care for company, they could just continue an insular lifestyle underground and ignore them.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, kinda hard to lay siege to a mountain.
ArPharazonV: tell that to Smaug!
VardaValar1: Bring a hobbit who can go right into his tunnels to him!
Eonwe Valar: Dragons are a special case :}
VardaValar1: Aye. : )
Eonwe Valar: And Erebor is as well :} How many mountains do you see sitting out all by its lonesome? That's right, only one :}
Pallando Valar:'s sorta close to the uhh
Pallando Valar: iron? mountians
VardaValar1: That's why it's Lonely. : )
Pallando Valar: kinda
Pallando Valar: if you quint.
VardaValar1: Grey Mountains, kinda
Pallando Valar: squint*
VardaValar1: hehe, Pallando
ArPharazonV: "If you squint and tilt your head a little"..
ArPharazonV: sorry, obscure game reference
VardaValar1: Which game? : )
ArPharazonV: the curse of monkey island
VardaValar1: Thanks
ArPharazonV: skull island... "if you squint and tilt your head a little, it looks like a skull!"
ArPharazonV: it actually looked like a duck...
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: great game, that
Eonwe Valar: Sao Sauron, he lasted through a few ages of the world, but got dealt with in two of them, the last one for good. What did he do wrong? :}
Eonwe Valar: Sao = so
VardaValar1: In Numenor, he underestimated how hard Numenor would be slapped back.
ArPharazonV: one could say that putting his power in the Ring was his biggest mistake in the end, but without the Ring he might not have escaped the Fall of Numenor so easily...
VardaValar1: In the Third Age, he assumed others would want the power from using the Ring, not try to destroy it.
VardaValar1: If he had been full power, he might not have needed the Ring at Numenor.
VardaValar1: Sauron and Morgoth both put part of their power into their minions, lessening themselves.
VardaValar1: I need to take a short break, food needed for family.
ArPharazonV: he was pretty good at underestimating his opponents
VardaValar1: Ancalagon seems afk
ArPharazonV: he sent his wolves at Huan and Luthien one by one because he underestimated them, if he'd sent them all at once...
Eonwe Valar: Sauron judged his enemies by what he would do, which was a mistake.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that's another good point.
Eonwe Valar: He toyed too much with his enemies. The folly of evil.
Eonwe Valar: He whittled their strength down, but then he got overconfident. Same with Morgoth. Morgoth thought he had the deal sealed after wiping out Gondolin, and that came back to bite him.
Pallando Valar: To be fair here, Morgoth could be reasonably confident his peers wouldn't be coming after him..
Pallando Valar: the confidence would be misplaced, but reasonable.
ArPharazonV: he also thought that the sons of Feanor would finish the job...
VardaValar1: Then they came at him, once for the Elves, once after Earendil brought a request for aid from both Elves and Men.
VardaValar1: (I'm back and forth)
Pallando Valar: right, but morgoth, reasonably speaking, couldn't have seen Earendil coming, as it were.
Eonwe Valar: Maybe not Earendil, but from past experience, he should've known eventually the Valar were going to come deal with him.
Pallando Valar: That'd be rather defeatist for him.
Eonwe Valar: His creatures were powerful enough to put up a fight against the army coming from Valinor, showing he wasn't expecting to be dealing with pushovers foever.
Eonwe Valar: *forever
Pallando Valar: True.
Eonwe Valar: If all he was expecting to deal with was Elves, he could've just massed orcs on them and eventually worn them down.
Eonwe Valar: Certainly orcs seem to be easier to produce.
ArPharazonV: Morgoth was an artist... wanted to show off what other creatures he could make besides Orcs :-)
Pallando Valar: right. Not to mention he didn't generally deploy his other tropps. Obviously reserve forces for the Valar.
Eonwe Valar: hehe :}
Eonwe Valar: Glaurung came out in one battle as a trial, didn't come back until he was full grown. Could say Morgoth was positioning his pieces at that point.
Eonwe Valar: His Balrogs stayed guarding his king (him), of course :}
Eonwe Valar: Winged dragons weren't even seen until the War of Wrath, showing he was holding a trump card back, at least until the next best thing was ready. Then his winged dragons would've been over Middle-Earth.
Pallando Valar: I can't recall any times he deployed anything other than orcs and wargs unless the battle was on his front porch, as it were.
Eonwe Valar: Pretty sure some trolls were in there in later battles as well.
Pallando Valar: Mmm, point.
Eonwe Valar: He apparently wasn't expecting to need anything other than orcs up until the Third Battle, Dagor Aglareb, when he saw how easily the Elves dealt with them.
Pallando Valar: back in a bit, need to negotiage some hostile territory.
Eonwe Valar: ok
ArPharazonV: he used Balrogs and Dragons in Gondolin
ArPharazonV: and sent a Dragon to Nargothrond
Eonwe Valar: So Morgoth, while underestimating Elves and Men, at least seemed to have expected an assault by the Valar, or was planning an assault on them eventually.
Pallando Valar: planning an assault seems more likely to me
ArPharazonV: if I recall, there were still many Elves and Men left in Beleriand when the army of the Valar came, and they were joined... maybe if he had succeeded in getting rid of them before the Valar came, the outcome would have been differen
ArPharazonV: t
Eonwe Valar: I don't think the Noldor joined in the fight, actually.
Eonwe Valar: The Edain did, but I'm pretty sure the Noldor sat that one out.
Pallando Valar: woot, almost through.
ArPharazonV: hmm, allright
ArPharazonV: still, the Edain...
Pallando Valar: come on, two more jumps..
Eonwe Valar: Here we go:
Pallando Valar: Mm. I'm not dissing men or anything here..
Eonwe Valar: "The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, and the War of Wrath.
Pallando Valar: but I suspect (just a hunch) the Valar had all it took all on their own.. :-)
Eonwe Valar: There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Anfauglith could not contain it;
Eonwe Valar: and all the north was aflame with war.
Eonwe Valar: Before that:
Eonwe Valar: "Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-Earth little is said in any tale;
Eonwe Valar: for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the HIther Land, and who made the histories of those days that still are known;
Eonwe Valar: and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfols in Aman.
Eonwe Valar: "
Eonwe Valar: *kinsfolk
Pallando Valar: wrong time to lag..
Eonwe Valar: Oki, seems Morgoth more likely would've been planning an assult, because it also says here he deemed himself too strong to ever be come against in open war again.
Pallando Valar: Does it say the Edain were witht hem?
Eonwe Valar: Probably in Akallabeth
ArPharazonV: neh, it's in the same chapter
Pallando Valar: ugg
Pallando Valar: well, there goes ~80m
ArPharazonV: "And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar;
Eonwe Valar: "In the Great Battle when at last Morgoth was overthrown and Thangorodrim was broken, the Edain alone of the kindreds of Men fought for the Valar,
ArPharazonV: and they were avenged in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galdor and Gundor, Huor and Hurin, and many others of their lords."
Eonwe Valar: whereas many others fought for Morgoth."
Eonwe Valar: Mine was from Akallabeth.
ArPharazonV: mine was from "of the voyage of Earendil" where the War of Wrath is described
ArPharazonV: in fact, on the same page as the "and all the north was aflame with war" quote
Eonwe Valar: Aye, it also says it in that chapter right under wher eI was quoting.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that chapter.
Eonwe Valar: Siding with the Valar certainly aided the survival of the Edain. They even got a land out of it.
Pallando Valar: hp?a=kill_detail&kll_id=6712 :-(
Eonwe Valar: I guess we've talked this one out?
ArPharazonV: you... lost... 139 million... while you were at work?
Pallando Valar: no, no
Pallando Valar: that happened just now
Pallando Valar: the kb values are off by a large margin, that's more like 80-90m
Pallando Valar: I don't even know what the original topic was anymore.
Pallando Valar: But uh...Morgoth didn't have a chance to see the Valar coming.
Pallando Valar: Okay, possibly overconfident about being invulnerable.
Pallando Valar: But it's not totally unreasonable for him tot hink the Valar would not sacrifice a continent to kill him..
Eonwe Valar: choices, corruption, how they affected to longevity of people, races, kingdoms.
Pallando Valar: well
Pallando Valar: If you (arguably) consider the orc's "kingdoms" to be morgoth and sauron's
Pallando Valar: they outlasted some elvish kingdoms
Eonwe Valar: Orc "kingdoms" weren't constantly under attack for an entire age either :}
ArPharazonV: well, of all the major battles of the First Age, of Beleriand...
Pallando Valar: I'm just saying, using the "corruption" link..
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
ArPharazonV: how many were directed *at* Morgoth's kingdom?
Eonwe Valar: Seems orcs were at their zenith when Morgoth or Sauron were acting.
Pallando Valar: hah
Pallando Valar: You know..if you compare what morgoth and sauron caused..
ArPharazonV: anyway, must be off, it's far too late already
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Phar.
ArPharazonV: will be saving and sending
Pallando Valar: morgoth: destruction of a continent, marring of the world
Eonwe Valar: Ok
ArPharazonV: be sure to save the rest of your conversation, I want to read it!
Pallando Valar: sauron: rise of man
ArPharazonV: Sauron *kinda* destroyed a continent...
ArPharazonV: well, it was by his actions partially
Pallando Valar: a large island.
ArPharazonV: what's the difference, really?
Pallando Valar: okay, an overly large island.
Eonwe Valar: Numenor was probably large enough to be called a continent.
ArPharazonV: was Valinor an island or a continent? is Australia an island or a continent?
Pallando Valar: okay, we'll give sauron the continent
Eonwe Valar: Aman is a continent.
Eonwe Valar: Valinor is a place on Aman.
ArPharazonV: yeah, you knew what I meant
ArPharazonV: allright, saving
Pallando Valar: this makes it even between marring the world and the rise of man.
ArPharazonV: saved
Pallando Valar: which is bigger? :p
ArPharazonV: well, man's still doing a pretty good job at marring the world since we rose...
Pallando Valar: `right!
ArPharazonV: so it kinda evens out
Pallando Valar: though we havn't managed to destroy the light of the world
Pallando Valar: unless you're in athens or la.
ArPharazonV: give us time, we're not done yet
Eonwe Valar: So I guess this topic really is done :}
Pallando Valar: yeah
Pallando Valar: help me feel sorry for myself for losing 80m isk on the eve of getting my pvp ships finally fully kit.
Eonwe Valar: Let's bang the gavel then.
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*

Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting :}
Eonwe Valar: Happy 10th Anniversary all :}
ArPharazonV: remember to save this bit, Eonwe!
Pallando Valar: all of my chats are saved.
Eonwe Valar: Saved already :}
Pallando Valar: there will be one big logfile from friday night until next time I reboot.
ArPharazonV: ok, I sent what I had to Varda
ArPharazonV: Namarie all!
ArPharazonV: *cuddles up in his Cave with a nice blanket*
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well :}
Pallando Valar: /me kicks some sand around
Pallando Valar: Play eve!
Pallando Valar: I mean, uh.
Pallando Valar: Night!
ArPharazonV has left the room.
Pallando Valar: Yknow..I have to wonder.
Pallando Valar: Does he have a soccer ball in his cave?
Eonwe Valar: That cave isn't supposed to be a funhouse, you know :}
VardaValar1: back
Eonwe Valar: Welcome back :}
Eonwe Valar: Topic ran out while you were gone.
Eonwe Valar: We're in after-meeting now.
VardaValar1: okie dokie : )
VardaValar1: This is the first anniversary not all loaded up with reminescing.
VardaValar1: Is that a good thing? Means we do more in the now, more forward-looking? : )
Eonwe Valar: Could be, though everyone here has something to reminisce about :}
VardaValar1: Yet we didn't : )
VardaValar1: I was impressed with the number of things people did for the anniversary!
VardaValar1: I think this may have been more in terms of Tolkien Site and new projects starting up than any previous anniversary.
Eonwe Valar: That's certainly a good thing./
VardaValar1: Before I think we did more with tourneys, gaming.
Pallando Valar: I was trying to refernece Cast Away.
Pallando Valar: Obviously didn't build it up enough.
Pallando Valar: (re: soccer ball)
VardaValar1: Ohh, right. Poor Tom Hanks character. : )
Eonwe Valar: oh, I get it now, Pallando :}
VardaValar1: Talk about lonely. At least Phar has his men to kick around. ;-)