Valar Guild

March 18, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon-(V), Eonwe-(Valar), and Varda-(Valar)

Attending: (10)
    Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, ArPharazonV, Bombur-(V)/MrMonkey2002Blah, Eonwe Valar (presiding), FinduilasV, Finrod-(V)/TH0R0NGIL, FladrifV, Olwe-(V)/FallenGlory, Pallando Valar, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    Pallando, our new Maia!
    LotRO: Open Beta coming! Roll-over from it so plans have been laid.
    Eve: Guild branch started
    BFME2:Rise of the Witch-King
    Total Annihiliation
       Argent Dawn
    Topic by Fladrif-(V): How much did the Free Peoples know of the origin of Ea or their own origin, and how is this reflected in the story?

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Pallando Valar has entered the room.
Sarujil has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: will be rather late
ArPharazonV: still in instance
ArPharazonV: only thought about hour difference until it was too late
MrMonkey2002Blah has entered the room.
FallenGlory has entered the room.
FladrifV has entered the room.
FladrifV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Eonwe Valar: If anyone sees anyone on that's not here, please invite them.
ArPharazonV: let Varda know, I won't be here actually present until an hour or so
ArPharazonV: will give news then
Eonwe Valar: Varda's out. I'll be chairing tonight.
ArPharazonV: allright, now you know!
ArPharazonV: see ya
Eonwe Valar: And knowing is half the battle :}
Eonwe Valar: The other half is the battle :}
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a sec, then we'll begin.
Pallando Valar: Zhwoop.
Pallando Valar: Eonwe, did Varda forward her email this morning to you?
Eonwe Valar: Which e-mail?
Pallando Valar: eve-related, responded to me.
Pallando Valar: I'll forward you a copy, you've got the hotmail account, right?
FinduilasV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: yes
FinduilasV: Aiya all :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya Finduilas.
Sarujil: hi
FinduilasV: how are you tonight?
Eonwe Valar: I received some Eve-related info earlier in the week, but I think you sent that, Pallando.
Pallando Valar: yes, this is update/request
Pallando Valar: mailing you now
Eonwe Valar: Btw, for everyone who didn't get to find out last week, Pallando is our new Maia, formely known as Orodreth.
FinduilasV: ":-) Congrats :D
Pallando Valar: Varda didn't have time to finish responding to me, so if you could fill in the holes, that'd be great. :D
FinduilasV: I hear you seduced Menelvagor
Eonwe Valar: I'll do what I can :}
Pallando Valar: Seduced has some connotations I'd rather not apply here...persuaded, may I say?
Pallando Valar: Certinaly nothing as base as a bribe, however. ;-)
FinduilasV: hehe , maybe , that is a more .. apropriate word ;'-)
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's go ahead and begin.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: As noted already, We have a new Maia, Pallando :}
Eonwe Valar: Congrats on surviving the test :}
Eonwe Valar: Varda, Elwing, and several others of Varda's family are out and about today, having fun :}
Eonwe Valar: Spring break is here for some of us :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
FinduilasV: No not really, just that scouting is going ahead
Eonwe Valar: Good to hear.
Eonwe Valar: Any of them convinced to check out the site?
FinduilasV: I always hope for bialywilk, a good friend and fervent Tolkien fan, but he fears for his language skills
FinduilasV: he has done that :-)
FinduilasV: the decision is of course up to him but i do hope he joins some day
Eonwe Valar: We do have members for whom English is not a first language :}
Eonwe Valar: The important thing is that he knows enough to keep up and to contribute.
Eonwe Valar: WOuldn't want him feeling left out because he could do those.
FinduilasV: yup I know :-) , and his english is really not too bad , sum hiccoughs but who hasnt got them ;-)
FinduilasV: aye, i ll keep talking to him about it
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, true. Online games are a good example of English speakers with "hiccoughs" in their ability to speak English :}
ArPharazonV: ok, last room before last boss, will be here shortly
Eonwe Valar: Or should I say type English :}
FinduilasV: indeed , and i usually understand him
FinduilasV: he is a great guy
Eonwe Valar: I usually reccomend coming to at least one meeting for potential members. They'll see what they're getting into that way.
FinduilasV: ok i will tell him
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure you've suggested that already though.
FinduilasV: i havent asked him about aim yet
Eonwe Valar: I figure it'll at least help him find out if he can keep up with the English in here.
FinduilasV: but will do
FinduilasV: /me nods
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: And thanks for scouting :}
Eonwe Valar: More of us need to do that :}

Eonwe Valar: Ok, on to Web news:
Eonwe Valar: Varda's acting as interim manager for the Humour page, since Menelvagor can't reach it. If you have some Tolkien humour to add, you can send it to her.
Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: Varda sent me some LotRO news, so I'll supply that now.
Eonwe Valar: For the Open Beta, the plan is to use Landroval server. [It will roll over to the retail version.]
Eonwe Valar: In retail,, she's going to [also] be picking a server not yet named [as a secondary server in case of crashes], trying to go for the most obscure possible.
TH0R0NGIL has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Plans are also for Monday night gaming, like we have Wednseday for Uldaman and Friday for Lothar in World of Warcraft.
Eonwe Valar: She also informs me we can make 5 characters that roll over to live now.
Eonwe Valar: I assume this is still only for those who pre-ordered. [Roll over is only from the Open Beta.]
Eonwe Valar: The level cap will be 15, but there'll be no cap on crafting apparently.
FinduilasV: I still cant game on Lotro Beta, i need a new computer L0(
FinduilasV: but hopefully i can buy one before it comes out in the shops
Eonwe Valar: You've got until the end of April at least :}
FinduilasV: That is calming to know :-)
Eonwe Valar: One moment, seeing which bit of gaming news comes next.
Eonwe Valar: Orodreth, your floor for Eve news.
Pallando Valar: In Eve, I'm proud to announce the official opening of the Valar Guild Eve branch. :-)
Pallando Valar: (and I got it right this time!)
ArPharazonV: ok, I'm here, and scrolling
Pallando Valar: So
Pallando Valar: Anyone wishing to join up or take a look is welcome to. Ingame, join channel Valar Guild
Pallando Valar: We can get you started from there.
ArPharazonV: ok, done scrolling
Eonwe Valar: I hope any Valar Guild members playing Eve would want to join our official branch :}
ArPharazonV: congratulations Pallando on maia!
Eonwe Valar: We're in gaming now, Phar :}
ArPharazonV: I know, I said I would be late :-)
ArPharazonV: so when would I have to congratulate him? while I"m not here yet? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but you can whisper congrats this late in the meeting :}
Pallando Valar: For those wishing a little more information, the CEO is Pallando Luineistar, corporation name is The Valar Guild, ticker is [V G].
Pallando Valar: However, We will want to try and get some sort of central location, for agent/ore/etc access.
Pallando Valar: At any rate, based on the....exceptional responce from one of my fellow Maia from the offfer of a month time card, I will be trying to offer them about once a month. :-)
Pallando Valar: So if you're interested in that, get on a trial account and mail Pallando.
Pallando Valar: and with that I think I'm done. :-)
Pallando Valar: Oh, Eve site for trial accounts (and paid ones!) is
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Pallando :}
Eonwe Valar: Anoyone else play Anything besides WoW this week?
ArPharazonV: yup
Eonwe Valar: I beat BFME2:Rise of the Witch-King btw :}
ArPharazonV: well, as you may recall, I was not here last weekend
ArPharazonV: that was because my internet provider had a sort of meltdown over the weekend
ArPharazonV: making WoW obviously impossible.. so I decided to grab some old games
ArPharazonV: started with the Fellowship of the Ring third person game, not sure what the genre is actually called
ArPharazonV: but that turned out to not work anymore on my pc for some reason, a darn shame
ArPharazonV: maybe I'll get it running some day after messing with settings and cards and everything, but not now
Eonwe Valar: That was the one by Black Label Studios?
ArPharazonV: ehr let me check
Eonwe Valar: Or the one by Interplay?
Eonwe Valar: (Interplay is the older one)
ArPharazonV: black label, by the looks ofit
ArPharazonV: just stuck on a black or distorted screen when you start the game
Eonwe Valar: I did a review on the XBox version of that.
Eonwe Valar: Sorry to hear that Phar.
ArPharazonV: anyway, I started playing Total Annihiliation: Kingdoms again.. did a skirmish against AI opponents, then resumed the campaign
ArPharazonV: which I had left at lvl 18 many months ago
ArPharazonV: am now at lvl 46 out of 48 :-)
ArPharazonV: most of it in 2 days
ArPharazonV: not sure if anyone knows that game?
FinduilasV: not me
Eonwe Valar: Being the guy who maintains the Games Page, I've heard of it :}
ArPharazonV: any of you familiar with the original Total Annihilation then?
ArPharazonV: it's basically the same playing style, but in a medieval fantasy setting instead of futuristic
ArPharazonV: with dragons and orcs and goblins... quite Tolkien-styled in that way
ArPharazonV: no Elves or Dwarves, though
ArPharazonV: if you want to play a nice RTS with a simply interface and simple resource-management, with (in my opinion) a good story and good graphics
ArPharazonV: I must say Total Annihilation: Kingdoms is one of the most underrated games I've ever played
FinduilasV: so you`d recommend it?
ArPharazonV: hardly known in the gaming world, its expansion very rare (I haven't gotten my hands on it) but a very nice game
ArPharazonV: aye, I'd recommend it
Eonwe Valar: I assume that's the end, Phar? :}
ArPharazonV: yeah, pretty much... the Iron Plague is the expansion called, so if anyone knows a store in the Netherlands or Europe where it can be bought... let me know!
Eonwe Valar: Good luck.
ArPharazonV: thanks :-)
Eonwe Valar: So, if that is it for non-WoW, it's time for what all of about 3 of us have been waiting for: WoW :}
Eonwe Valar: Finduilas, any gaming to report from the Argent Dawn branch?
ArPharazonV: she's off for dinner, tells me to do the report
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead.
ArPharazonV: will be back shortly
ArPharazonV: allright, this week there were apparently 3 guild groupings, 2 of which she just gave me in 1 sentence, as I wasn't there
ArPharazonV: Finduilass and Stonesong had a "bit of a scramble" on Wednesday, reported on the forum
ArPharazonV: and Caradhron and Failivrin grouped in the Badlands and afterwards Razorfen Kraul
ArPharazonV: the third bit was... yesterday, I think, when some of us went to Scholomance to get Finduilasse's epic paladin-mount
ArPharazonV: lvl 70 Calaron (my druid), lvl 64 Finduilasse (paladin), lvl 60 Skjold (Fladrif's priest) and lvl 56 Orophin (hunter) joined up with a friend of mine and guildmember, a lvl 70 hunter called Harmund
ArPharazonV: and we proceeded to waltz over the first half of Scholomance
ArPharazonV: it went very quick, as most of us were basically too high already
ArPharazonV: we had a lot of fun, and cleared up to the room where the paladin-mount is to be acquired
ArPharazonV: getting the same enchanting-formula 4 times in the rooms before
ArPharazonV: after the difficult event needed for her mount, in which some of us almost died (and poor Orophin lost his life), we decided to continue with 4 of us, for my friend Harmund had to leave
ArPharazonV: and Finduilasse and Skjold needed some further quests, including the lost Deeds
ArPharazonV: soon Orophin had to go too, and we did some more bosses with us 3, completing the deeds
ArPharazonV: we wiped a few times, and ended up with respawns, but fortunately got the job done before we called it a night
ArPharazonV: and that's my report, if Finduilas has more details on any of the events I'm sure she'll give them when she returns
ArPharazonV: also!
ArPharazonV: on the curse-gaming website there have been stated early patchnotes for 2.1.0 for WoW, but they're probably fake
ArPharazonV: it's simply too many fixes and additions in one patch to be true :-)
ArPharazonV: ews/1161/2-1-0-patch-notes/ is the link, in any case
FinduilasV: /back
Eonwe Valar: I'll believe patch notes when they're announced by Blizzard :}
ArPharazonV: it still has some nice "fixes" so you might enjoy reading it in any case :-)
Eonwe Valar: Despite them trying to nerf Pallies in the last patch and not tell us until after it was done.
Eonwe Valar: Well, actuall,y it would've been a nerf on everyone because many Paladins were saying they'd use it on their friends :}
Eonwe Valar: well, not their friends, but people on their faction, you know what I mean :}
ArPharazonV: right :-)
ArPharazonV: what was the nerf then?
Eonwe Valar: Finduilas, did you have anything to add to the report given by Pharazon?
Eonwe Valar: 15% damage debuff added to Forbearance.
Eonwe Valar: so anyone hit with Blessing of Protection would've felt it.
FinduilasV: the scramble with Stone song was for Lightforged Iron and some ancient relics at Whelgars
Eonwe Valar: If you read the Forbearance tooltip after casting anything that triggers Forbearance, you'll see the text still reads as if it did debuff damage, only says "0%" instead of "15%".
FinduilasV: I was very pleased as he is usually not one for teaming up :-)
FinduilasV: Stonesong is Menelvagors paladin
Eonwe Valar: Ah
Eonwe Valar: Glad to Hear Menel made an appearance on his Paladin then :}
FinduilasV: oh aye , i guess he will come at times , he is too addicted as he sais himself ;-)
Pallando Valar: TA: Kingdoms is, in my oh so very humble opinion, a disappointment to the franchise. But I'm crazy like that. Just as a note.
FinduilasV: Caradhron , Valandils mage accompanied my warrior to get some liquid needed for her warrior armor
FinduilasV: but that concludes my additions :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Finduilas :}
Eonwe Valar: And thanks Phar for giving the report in Finduilas' absence :}
Eonwe Valar: WoW Uldaman:
ArPharazonV: different tastes, Pallando :-) It could use some work, sure, but it wasn't that bad
Eonwe Valar: (remember we have Uldaman Wednesdays now? :})
Eonwe Valar: Guild-friends Kragen and Vaire were present. Elwing (Rosereddawn) and Varda (Tinta) ran blood elves together; both leveled, upgraded items, did the Voidwalker quest for Tinta,
Eonwe Valar: and ran the length of the Dead Scar (several times) clearing a batch of quests for zombie and skeleton deaths and body parts. The two elves were not stomped by the two wandering abominations, barely.
Eonwe Valar: <--Report from Varda on the News Page.
Eonwe Valar: <-- of course pointing to the text that came before :}
Eonwe Valar: Not my name :} Varda did not report me :}
Eonwe Valar: WoW Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: This week, Varda, Fangorn, and Eonwe slew Warp Stalkers, killed buzzards, saved a level 1 tomb guardian, killed ethereals, and killed a giant skeletal dragon.
ArPharazonV: ahh, Terokkar Forest, the Bone Wastes... good times!
FinduilasV: hooh he is getting nostalgic :P
FinduilasV: for me still music of the future *grin* but not far
Eonwe Valar: We also escorted a group of Dwarven archaeologists to their dig site, scared up some bone wyrms amid the sand gnomes, and killed a really big wyrm.
ArPharazonV: well I'm almost out of non-instance quests, it's mostly instancing, raiding and repgrinding for me now... so I do miss quests like that :-)
Eonwe Valar: And just for fun, this morning Beline and I two-manned a good chunk of Undead Stratholme to get the Holy Waters, Plagued Flesh Samples, and a key to the City for me.
Eonwe Valar: Auros met Aurius.
ArPharazonV: (oh, still a smaller gathering this afternoon which I forgot to mention, will tell about it after you're done)
Sarujil has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: That concludes the Lothar report. So there was another Valar Guild grouping today, Phar?
ArPharazonV: yup!
Eonwe Valar: Proceed.
ArPharazonV: I joined Fladrif on his Zangarmarsh quests, and we completed a stock of it
Eonwe Valar: Ah. Those are some fun quests.
ArPharazonV: we gathered wings and other ingredients from the flying glowing wasp-thingies around the lakes
ArPharazonV: dove into the lake around Coilfang Reservoir to kill a few hydras and steal their hides
FinduilasV: they are on Finduilasses plan of killing too
ArPharazonV: we also cleared the area for Kurenai communication by slaying 12 marshfang slicers, and stole a dagger and book from the Daggerfen village
ArPharazonV: while slaying the marshfangs we also came across their leader, who dropped something that started a new quest for Fladrif
ArPharazonV: and last but not least we rid the zone of 2 menaces, 1 giant Makrura called Terrorclaw and a marsh walker called Boglash
ArPharazonV: then Fladrif had to go have dinner, and I continued farming in Nagrand for my leatherworking, so we split up and ended our little grouping!
Eonwe Valar: Congrats to you both :}
ArPharazonV: I myself had already done those quests about 7 levels ago
ArPharazonV: but it was good fun :-)
FinduilasV: /me lets out a deep , drawn sigh
FinduilasV: *when i was young and innocent ..*
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: he told me he the quests would be enough to level from 64 to 65, but I did not witness the moment he delivered them
Eonwe Valar: Ok everyone, with that concludes the gaming portion of the business portion of our meeting, and the business portion with it. Tolkien time so send me some topics!
Eonwe Valar: Heh, thought your "Last but not least" meant you were done Phar, pardon :}
ArPharazonV: oh, I'm done now :-)
ArPharazonV: nice timing ;-)
Eonwe Valar: ok, what I said above :}
FinduilasV: eek ye made my fingers itch

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien time, and we need topics :}
Eonwe Valar: Maybe make Pallando spill everything he knows about his new namesake? Or give him everything we know about his new namesake? :}
ArPharazonV: ahh, the blue wizards.. always so much to tell!
ArPharazonV: *goes searching for his copy of Unfinished Tales*
Eonwe Valar: No other suggestions for topics?
Eonwe Valar: Tsk tsk :}
FladrifV: out of the forrest an ent awakes
Eonwe Valar: Good morning :}
ArPharazonV: did you make it to 65, Flad?
FladrifV: I must confess being optimistic there
ArPharazonV: haha
FladrifV: Im half way, but havent played that much after dinner
Eonwe Valar: Fladrif made a suggestion for a Tolkien topic.
Eonwe Valar: Put simply, it's as follows:
Eonwe Valar: (Well, as simply as I ever put anything :})
Eonwe Valar: How much did the Free Peoples know of the origin of Ea or their own origin, and how is this reflected in the story?
Eonwe Valar: We know Morgoth was always trying to distort or destroy the truth.
ArPharazonV: not to blow my own horn, but I'd say Numenor was a classical case of what humans knew, what humans believed after so long, and how they could be deceived concerning their origin
Eonwe Valar: No, I think you've got a good point, Phar.
Eonwe Valar: Now you may elaborate :}
Eonwe Valar: Others feel free to jump in too :}
ArPharazonV: after thousands of years of no contact with the Valar and little contact with Elves, a lot of the kingdom fell in doubt and disbelief concerning their origins, the true power of the Valar, and the existence of Illuvatar himself
ArPharazonV: When Sauron was brought to Numenor this only increases as he told them the Valar were weak and deceptive and jealous, that Eru did not exist at all but was a lie made up by them, and that Melkor was the one true god
FladrifV: the short mind and lifespan of the human helps in this matter I guess
ArPharazonV: it does
ArPharazonV: it took 3000 years, almost... if you compare that to our own history... it's been 2000 years since Jesus walked the earth, and there are many many humans who don't believe in him or don't believe in his significance :-)
ArPharazonV: so I found it quite realistic and fitting with what we know of our own kind
Eonwe Valar: Essentially Sauron was brining them back under the Shadow that they had been under long before they met the Elves.
ArPharazonV: indeed
FladrifV: wasnt it then a little true
Eonwe Valar: The Edain had left that Shadow behind them, and now Sauron had come to reclaim them.
FladrifV: that he was indeed their god
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth was worshipped by some humans as a god.
FinduilasV: indeed he was ... , and a good few
Eonwe Valar: But he wasn't their creator.
ArPharazonV: yet he did not create them and did not rule them except out of fear
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
FinduilasV: no he could not create them in fact
FinduilasV: he could only mock
ArPharazonV: well, and gifts he came baring, as Sauron did in later ages
ArPharazonV: *bearing
ArPharazonV: *blushes*
Eonwe Valar: Actually, I found some interesting tales of versions of those first days when we were looking up that information on the Houseless a month or two ago, Phar.
FinduilasV: well lets say imitate but all he did was terinted i fear
FinduilasV: tainted
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: I remember one such story, Eonwe, about a wise human woman who shared their dark past with the Elves... somewhere in HoME, no?
ArPharazonV: Aiya Varda!
Eonwe Valar: Sounds about right.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda. Topic at hand:
VardaValar1: Aiya. I remember that story
VardaValar1: I have to be mostly afk, but will try to participate some
Eonwe Valar: How much did the Free Peoples know of the origin of Ea or their own origin, and how is this reflected in the story?
FladrifV: *bows* welcome Varda
Eonwe Valar: NP< have fun :}
VardaValar1: Don't crack, Fladrif!
FinduilasV: /me bows to Varda
FladrifV: *crack* some splinters fell off I fear...
VardaValar1: Working on supper for this mob
VardaValar1: *repairs with help from Yavanna*
VardaValar1: The elves knew a good bit and would have passed on what they knew to the Edain.
VardaValar1: The Edain originally got a very skewed version from Morgoth.
VardaValar1: The Dwarves, hmm. They seemed to believe Mahal/Aule made them.
ArPharazonV: which was true, after all
Eonwe Valar: The Dwarves had knowledge of Aul� their creator, and his conversation with Eru at their creation. Dwarves are meticulous about stuff like that.
VardaValar1: Good for the Dwarves!
VardaValar1: The Elves taught trees to talk, and may have passed on their knowledge, as what are the first questions asked except where did we come from and why?
FladrifV: can someone tell me what meticulous means? *blush*
VardaValar1: Very careful with details.
Eonwe Valar: Whether or not their understanding of their kings being reborn is true is another story. It would seem they'd be forced to tote around an empty shell when they got kicked out of their anscestral halls though if it were.
VardaValar1: A blushing tree! Fascinating!
VardaValar1: If the king would be reborn, he left the shell to be born later
VardaValar1: Maybe he goes to Aule between times to return with greater skill?
Eonwe Valar: Some tales say he entered the same body.
VardaValar1: lhh
VardaValar1: oboy
ArPharazonV: could be that he just entered an identical body, and it's a figure of speech ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: That story seems as if it would lose ground the first time the body disintegrated.
ArPharazonV: some stories also say that they return to stone when they die
VardaValar1: Thought they expected them to be reborn in the line they fathered?
Eonwe Valar: Think it said the body entered a "sleep" or something. Guess I'll go digging for that eventually. I sense the need for an article on Dwarves for the Encyclopedia :}
ArPharazonV: so it's more erosion than organic disintegration :-)
VardaValar1: I really thought I'd run across them being reborn into their own lines.
VardaValar1: Time to break out the books, aye. :-)
Eonwe Valar: You probably did, Varda.
Eonwe Valar: I think I've seen both versions, with the latter probably being in LotR or Sil, or at least nearer their publication.
VardaValar1: All the versions do make it interesting. Lot like rl ; )
Eonwe Valar: However, it tends to fall apart for the same reasons Elves being reborn into their children fell apart.
FladrifV: dwarves are so alike they cant even see the difference of the king within their own kin
ArPharazonV: yes, he was going for that, wasn't he? more of a mythology than a straight fantasy story :-)
VardaValar1: More like history including the records from different sources.
ArPharazonV: or that!
VardaValar1: But yes, mythology.
VardaValar1: Fantasy tries to build on both those.
FinduilasV: speed reading here
FinduilasV: ok but i think yer right, the sleep version is out of the sil
Eonwe Valar: So, prior to Sauron's coming, how did the Numenoreans show that they knew of ttheir origins/ Ea's origins?
Eonwe Valar: I suppose that they respected the Valar could be one way.
Eonwe Valar: Of course it helps they'd just seen the Valar come in and wipe out Morgoth's forces.
FinduilasV: they had the Meneltarma
FinduilasV: or how was that montain called? tjhe one in Numenor
ArPharazonV: the Meneltarma, yes
FinduilasV: there was a temple on top there
Eonwe Valar: Aye, they went atop Meneltarma regularly to give thanks to Eru.
ArPharazonV: there wasn't a temple on top there, it was a sacred place and never was anything built on it :-)
FladrifV: did eru ever apear for them?
Eonwe Valar: Eru didn't "appear" for anyone during the three Ages, but his presence can be seen, so to speak.
Eonwe Valar: *Three Ages we have recorded.
ArPharazonV: fascinating aspect, though... it remained undefiled even after they were told Eru did not exist (well, in one version Sauron builds his temple on it)
ArPharazonV: shows that there was still a little bit of doubt and fear in the Numenorean minds
ArPharazonV: or fear of the other half of the population of course, who did believe in Eru still :-)
Eonwe Valar: There was still a remnant of Numenoreans faithful to the Valar and to Eru.
ArPharazonV: yes, but they were persecuted in the end, right?
FinduilasV: aye
Eonwe Valar: I don't think the Faithful made up that much of the population by the Fall of Numenor.
ArPharazonV: not openly, at least
FinduilasV: they went to middlearth mostyly, and Pelennor was their main port
Eonwe Valar: Actually, now that I think of it, I recall that some left Numenor for Elf-lands in Middle-Earth. Gil-Galad's realm specifically.
ArPharazonV: aye, Dol Amroth too was founded by the Faithful prior to the fall
FinduilasV: some went in the Days of Tar Aldarion in fact
FinduilasV: well dont know of the faithful but Numenorians anyway
Eonwe Valar: The Lords of Anduni� were the chief proponents of the Faithful in the King's Councils, and for a long time the Kings feared to move against them.
Eonwe Valar: In Tar Aldarion's reign they hadn't been divided yet.
FinduilasV: true, my confusion :-)
Eonwe Valar: He didn't come to make permanent establishments either as I recall. He simply made small ports for his ships. He was, after all the "Ship King." :}
Eonwe Valar: So, for Numenoerans we see that they did revere Eru and give thanks to him upon Meneltarma, until Sauron came and reintroduced Morgoth's lies.
Eonwe Valar: Even afterwards the King's Men did not defile the Meneltarma, and of course every time a cloud came out of the West looking like an Eagle, some got scared and changed their evil ways for about 30 seconds :}
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: =)
Eonwe Valar: Faramir shows us that the Numenoreans in Exile still held some custom in remembrance of the West that they had lost.
VardaValar1: bowing to the West at meal time
Eonwe Valar: Frodo and Sam share that there is a somewhat similar custom in the Shire.
ArPharazonV: they probably got that from the times when Arnor was still... in existence, shall we say
Eonwe Valar: The Rangers of Ithilien were citizens of Gondor.
ArPharazonV: yes, I'm talking about the Shire :-)
Eonwe Valar: Ah, pardon.
VardaValar1: Faramir was the Steward's son, studied under Mithrandir, had an air of wizards, studied the library at Gondor.
Eonwe Valar: We know Dwarves have knowledge of their origins.
Eonwe Valar: We know Morgoth Lied to Men soon after the awoke to try and steer them from acknowledgement of Eru.
Eonwe Valar: *lied to them soon after they awoke
ArPharazonV: we know Hobbits' knowledge doesn't go further than some old stories about living on the eastern side of the Misty Mountains...
Eonwe Valar: Aye, the Hobbits didn;'t keep very good record of their histories.
Eonwe Valar: They keep close record on the geneologies now, though.
ArPharazonV: true, that :-)
VardaValar1: At least a little way back : )
Eonwe Valar: The Eldar knew the Valar on a more personal level. They also seemed to know better than to think there was no Eru, even if they didn't always act in accordance with Eru's establish stewards.
Eonwe Valar: I recall a part in BoLT where Manw� was asking the representatives of the Elves what they remembered of their creation.
Eonwe Valar: Anyone else remember this, or should I grab my book?
VardaValar1: Grab the book. Love quotes : )
ArPharazonV: hmm... can't say I do
FinduilasV: yeah book is safest , coz i dont remember that
Eonwe Valar: For those grabbing books, I recommend loking up the name Nornor� in the index. It'll take you right there.
VardaValar1: ah hah : )
Eonwe Valar: *looking
ArPharazonV: BoLT 1, I suppose?
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: You'll be within a couple of pages of the part I'm referring to if you look up Nornor�.
ArPharazonV: the first reference?
Eonwe Valar: Try the fourth
Eonwe Valar: the Third is in the Chaining of Melko, which in BoLT came before the awakening of the Elves.
VardaValar1: Sorry to all folks in chat and windows, but I need to run back and forth helping with dinner and guests
VardaValar1: I want to see this, so will be looking back!
ArPharazonV: no problem, Varda, take your time :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, bon apetit :}
VardaValar1: Better not be eating! Supposed to be chopping and cooking. ;-)
ArPharazonV: "Tell us how ye came; how found ye the world; what seemeth it to you who are its first offspring, or with what desires doth it fill you."
Eonwe Valar: hehe Varda :}
Eonwe Valar: "Lo! Most mighty one, whence indeed came we! For meseems I awoke but now from a sleep eternally profound, whose vast dreams are already forgotten."
Eonwe Valar: "Tinw� said thereto that his heart told himthat he was new-come from illimitable regions, yet he might not recollect by what dark and strang epaths he had been brought."
Eonwe Valar: Nolem� (Finw�) was the first quote. Tinw� was Elw� who later became husband to Melian.
Eonwe Valar: "Then Manw� saw that Iluvatar had wiped from the minds of the Eldar all knowledge of the manner of their coming., and that the Gods might not discover it..."
Eonwe Valar: So the Elves knew they were created by Eru, but didn't know how they were put in Ea.
Eonwe Valar: There's probably better quotes than that later in the HoME, but that's the first that came to mind.
Eonwe Valar: So, the next question is, what about other Free Peoples? What about Ents and Eagles? What do they know of their origins?
ArPharazonV: it's still interesting though... in real life everyone thinks about the afterlife, but nobody about how they actually came to be in the first place... and in fantasy and Tolkien too there is often more emphasis about
ArPharazonV: where the souls went than about where they came from
ArPharazonV: anyway, back to Tolkien
Eonwe Valar: I always thought our origin was an important question myself :}
ArPharazonV: Ents and Eagles... we know Ents know they were taught speech by the Elves, but about their origins I'm not sure
Eonwe Valar: afk for a sec
FladrifV: and they know of their creator
FladrifV: or atleast their tast
FladrifV: *task
Eonwe Valar: A quick note on the above: There is some interesting stuff on Elvish Philosophy in Book 12 I think of HoME.
Eonwe Valar: Essentially they pondered that they knew where their origin but not their final fate, but man had "forgotten" where they came from yet were told of their fate.
Eonwe Valar: Thus, while Man had a "shadow behind them," as is phrased in the Sil, the Elves had a"shadow before them."
Eonwe Valar: Those phrases also used in the pages on Elvish Philosophy.
Eonwe Valar: But back to the Ents and Eagles.
FladrifV: what do we ents have common with eagles?
Eonwe Valar: The Eagles of the First Age were originally the eyes of Manw� in Middle-Earth.
Eonwe Valar: Eagles and Ents are both the "peoples" of a particular Vala.
ArPharazonV: and what were the Ents? The... ehrm.. "fingers" of Yavanna?
Eonwe Valar: The hand of Yavanna perhaps :}
Eonwe Valar: Or maybe just the green thumb :}
FladrifV: we are not only green master eonwe
Eonwe Valar: For reference, when someone is good at gardening or growing plants, they are said to have a "green thumb."
Eonwe Valar: So the reference was to that.
FladrifV: *groms a bit and shakes a branch*
ArPharazonV: "groene vingers" Flad :-)
Eonwe Valar: Yavanna is, after all, the Valie of plant and animal life.
FladrifV: allthough our task lies only with the trees
Eonwe Valar: Well, male ents dealt primarily with trees.
Eonwe Valar: Entwives seemed to deal with bushes and shurbbery as I recall Fangorn's description.
Eonwe Valar: *shrubbery
Eonwe Valar: ok, here's the obligatory "NI!" on with Tolkien :}
ArPharazonV: *refrains from Monty Python joke*
ArPharazonV: ah, you beat me to it, good
Eonwe Valar: I knew it was coming so I did it for you :}
Eonwe Valar: And for everyone else so inclined :}
FinduilasV: shrubbery , plants and fruits :-)
FinduilasV: Entwives i meann
Eonwe Valar: Ents seemed to be content to let plants grow as they will with minimal guidance. Entwives seemed to want to tell a plant how to grow and considered it useless if it didn't produce something.
FladrifV: entwife are just farmers ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Men apparently learned much from the Entwive as far as cultivating goes.
Eonwe Valar: *Entwives
Eonwe Valar: The Sil hints at the creation of Ents and Eagles, but I don't recall anything about what they actually knew of their creation.
Eonwe Valar: The Eagles at least of the First Age knew of Manw� and so probably knew of Eru. I'm curious how much the Ents knew.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, the conversation seems to have dwindled off. Shall we call it here?
Eonwe Valar: Shall I take youyr silence as a yes? :}
ArPharazonV: hmm... I think we've reached about the end of what we know, really
Eonwe Valar: About Ents and Eagles, at least.
ArPharazonV: indeed
FladrifV: I have reached the end of the day
Eonwe Valar: Next week, perhaps we can explore the knowledge of orcs and trolls, heh :}
FladrifV: its here still winter time
FladrifV: that will be interesting eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Ok Fladrif. Take care :}
ArPharazonV: you think Orcs knew where they came from? :-)
Eonwe Valar: Maybe.
FladrifV: you think they cared?
ArPharazonV: they're bound to know more about it than we do, in any case ;-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
FladrifV: would beinteresting a lotr out of the view of sauron :-)
Eonwe Valar: Depends on who he was writing to.
FladrifV: was more thinking of an overal comment
Eonwe Valar: If he was reporting to MOrgoth it'd likely be alot different than if he was trying to persuade Men.
FladrifV: but from the view of the dark side
ArPharazonV: "looking through the eyes of an eye" sounds like a fun idea for a fanfiction
Eonwe Valar: Ok, here we go.
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs Gavel*

Eonwe Valar: Be frrrrrree! Be frrrreeee!
FladrifV: *runs circles...what to do now?
Eonwe Valar: Take a deep drink of entdraught? :}
FladrifV: sounds like a good idea and take a short nap of 7 hours
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that is short :}
FladrifV: sorry 6
Eonwe Valar: Need at least 10 hours for full effect :}
ArPharazonV: 10 hours, eh?
Eonwe Valar: I hear it's recommended.
FladrifV: 10...then im more then awake and cant sleep for 2 days
Eonwe Valar: Depending on your age.
ArPharazonV: wonder... when was the last time I got 10 hours
ArPharazonV: probably from 2 am to noon or 3 am to 1 pm...
Eonwe Valar: 21 or less (somewhere around there) should be getting approximately 10 hours of sleep.
FladrifV: Ive always lived with 6....
FladrifV: even when I was 18
Eonwe Valar: What you can live with is not always what's best :}
Eonwe Valar: I can survive off burgers and fries, but that's not a good longterm plan :}
FladrifV: depends on who defines hat is best
ArPharazonV: I'm 21 now, nearing 22... so yeah, I probably could use 10 hours...
ArPharazonV: explains a lot too, often tired these days
FladrifV: dont think you actually achieve more awake hours over a life spawn with 10 hours sleep a day :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, if someone does a scientific study and says your body runs better with x amount of sleep, and the science looks sound, I'd tend to belieev them :}
FladrifV: physically your body only needs 20 min recovering time
Eonwe Valar: Your heart need s a break every now and then too :} Sleep gives your heart at least a lighter load :}
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VardaValar1: back for a sec
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, I'm not here to tell you how much you need to sleep :} Just throwing that out there :}
FladrifV: you can live 12 years shorter with 6 hours aday to be an even amount of time awake
VardaValar1: I carefully timed myself and it worked out to 7 and a half hours for optimal functioning as a minimum.
FladrifV: on a average life time of 80 years
VardaValar1: Grandpa was digging a ditch at 87 and wore out the younger man next to him. ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: Our 97 year old deacon got off his bike one day and said it was time to let a younger man handle taking care of the church.
ArPharazonV: and how much did he sleep? :-)
VardaValar1: I think around 8 hours
VardaValar1: The barbecue is done and all is chopped, going back now : )
Eonwe Valar: Enjoy :}
FladrifV: Namarie
VardaValar1: Ahhh the scent!
VardaValar1: I will be afk again : )
FladrifV has left the room.
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