Valar Guild

June 3, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon-(V) and Varda-(Valar)

Attending: (10)
    Members: Alvareg-(V)/aiguernz, AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Elladan-(V)/Bior the Ythling, Eonwe Valar (presided over last half), Fladrifv, Menelvagor Valar, VardaValar1 (presided over first half).
    Friends: excelsiorjss, Srekal86

Meeting begins
    Arveleg-(TV) became Arveleg-(V) during the meeting.
    Arien is still waiting on her new computer, borrowing husband's laptop to attend.
    Games page is being redone with PHP, and mailings are being sent out tonight to update the information. Games, names in games, and when a person can play are wanted.
    Floor thrown open to discuss how to improve meetings.
    New article: The Silmarillion: Book Review by Arveleg-(TV)
        WoW Lothar: Eonwe
        WoW Uldaman: Eonwe
        WoW Argent Dawn: Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Menelvagor
    StarCraft: Ar-Pharazon, Eonwe
    WarCraft 3: Ar-Pharazon, Arien, Boromir, Fladrif
    Battle for Middle-earth 2: Arveleg
    LotRO: many
    What are some main themes in the Silmarillion?

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Fladrifv has entered the room.
 has entered the room.
Fladrifv: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe, Fladrif, and Pharazon : )
Fladrifv: sorry a bit bussy finding out where the grounds points are on my engine
Bior the Ythling has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Elladan : )
Bior the Ythling: Aiya
Srekal86 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: allright, hang on a bit, I'm still in Karazhan, could take an hour or so
ArPharazonV: so don't expect me to respond for a while
VardaValar1: Aiya Srekal : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya all
ArPharazonV: *vanishes*
VardaValar1: Sunk!
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiyata : )
Eonwe Valar: That was wierd. My internet just randomly disconnected.
Eonwe Valar: weird even
VardaValar1: Sounds like gaming : )
Eonwe Valar: Nope, tAIM is the only online instance of myself, I assure you :}
Eonwe Valar: AIM even, bah.
VardaValar1: I mean, same as if we were gaming. Guess you're gaiming. *o that was bad*
Fladrifv: hehe had indeed strange google results on tAIM
Eonwe Valar: ah
VardaValar1: That was a quick check
VardaValar1: This could be a fast meeting
VardaValar1: Hope that didn't jinx it. ; )

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership Report:
Fladrifv: meeting time=time*members?
VardaValar1: We have a new member, Tolkien-only
VardaValar1: Alvareg-(TV)
VardaValar1: We'll see, Fladrif : )
VardaValar1: He wants to join up as a Full Member and needs a tester.
VardaValar1: His AIM name is aiguernz for your list
VardaValar1: He's on right now but like most others is not responding.
VardaValar1: Not sure if it's the connection or just aways.
VardaValar1: Maybe some of you here can help him out when you are both on.
VardaValar1: He may be gone for the next week, though.
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?
VardaValar1: How about what are you folks doing right now? :-) Phar is gaming, I was helping put in flooring and we're doing wallpaper next. Break for now.
Fladrifv: Im here
Fladrifv: *waves*
VardaValar1: Yay Fladrif!
Eonwe Valar: I guess I could announce this now...
Eonwe Valar: I'm getting ready to send out the GPMU mail tonight.
VardaValar1: The giant mailing of Eonwe!
Eonwe Valar: Everyone will get it, but if you want to give me your gaming info here and now, you can. If you're not usingyour Guild name as your AIM name, please remind me of who you are.
VardaValar1: Varda: LotRO, D2X, WoW Lothar.
Eonwe Valar: Everyone = full members, of ocurse. Tolkien-Onlies don't need to get it as they don't game :}
VardaValar1: and WoW Uldaman.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, I was hoping for it in a whisper so I could save it separately from the meeting :}
VardaValar1: pardon, will do.
Srekal86 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Include account names/character names you can be found there as well, so that members can try to game with you :}
Eonwe Valar: Well, I guess unless you're in official branches on LotRO and WoW, since the Guild Roster can be used to find you there.
Eonwe Valar: Anyone else sending me their gaming info?
Eonwe Valar: Ok, I think that's everyone who's sending then.
Eonwe Valar: As always, the offer to mention on the Games Page is you play any XBox Live games you'd like to find partners for stands.
VardaValar1: Any online game, pc or not.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Fladrifv: pong over the fm band?
Eonwe Valar: Only if it's 5D ultrapong :}
Fladrifv: omg....programming 2d was hard enough...
Eonwe Valar: If you used DirectX, it'd be a piece of cake.
Eonwe Valar: for Pong at least.
Fladrifv: do they have fm modulator support?
VardaValar1: Forum rp count as one of the games? :-)
Eonwe Valar: I have no idea.
AriehnV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, sure, why not :}
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arien :}
VardaValar1: Aiya Arien : )
AriehnV: Aiya all togethere :-)
VardaValar1: How's the new computer?
Eonwe Valar: Whisper me your Gaming info for the GPMU if you don't want ot have to mail it to me :}
AriehnV: still using Bruces laptop
AriehnV: so we are waiting
AriehnV: awaiting stock
AriehnV: 'heaven knows when it will arrive ;-)
Fladrifv: *reflects some light to Ariehn*
AriehnV: catches light from fladrif
VardaValar1: Thanks to Bruce for letting you use it!
AriehnV: indeeed
VardaValar1: Suggestions are welcome for how to make the meetings more relevant and/or interesting.
VardaValar1: What would you like to see more of?
VardaValar1: More Tolkien? Other authors? More gaming? Less? : )
aiguernz has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Quicker gaming reports :}
VardaValar1: Aiya Alvareg : )
VardaValar1: hehe - aye
VardaValar1: Should we state merely who came and perhaps list the quests? Kind of dry, but faster.
Eonwe Valar: More of our Guild's successes :}
VardaValar1: Or just who came?
Fladrifv: are we allowed to speak freely?
aiguernz has left the room.
VardaValar1: Aye, open question
Fladrifv: short game reports
VardaValar1: Same as Eonwe said. What should we include in them?
Fladrifv: less technical facts
Fladrifv: more on the team work or if you state you did something great
Fladrifv: tell how :-)
Fladrifv: if it was special
VardaValar1: (Alvareg seems to have crashed)
Fladrifv: into what?
VardaValar1: AIM crashed.
VardaValar1: mountainside?
Fladrifv: *prays for soft mountains*
VardaValar1: Kindly ents to catch him on the slopes, maybe?
Fladrifv: those tasks we deligate to huors
VardaValar1: hehe
Fladrifv: *huorns
Fladrifv: member news is ok
Fladrifv: although new members should be done by them self
VardaValar1: I was hoping Alvareg was about to
Eonwe Valar: I don't mind so much quest names, so long as there's not a long list. Then I'd prefer something like "We cleared Zul Farrak."
VardaValar1: Most don't come.
VardaValar1: Good point
Eonwe Valar: I've been trying to do that with my questing reports.
Fladrifv: ok lets go to the absolute basic
Fladrifv: what is the meaning of the meeting
VardaValar1: It's hard to do the LotRO reports. Mostly just who and where they are operating.
VardaValar1: Tell us, Flad : )
Fladrifv: actually it was a question :-)
Fladrifv: what do we want to achieve by this
VardaValar1: Some of us are getting together to handle business. Eonwe and I do that for sure, sometimes on the side. We make testers available for new members.
VardaValar1: We want a way to let all members get together, no matter what game or non-game
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Fladrifv: aye
VardaValar1: They can talk about mutual interests
VardaValar1: Gamers talk about what they've been doing, and Tolkien-onlies should get to also
VardaValar1: but the TV's don't usually come.
VardaValar1: We can't get the whole group together anywhere else.
VardaValar1: Anyplace in the world, any gamer or non-gamer. Only real mutual interest may be Tolkien.
Fladrifv: I know but this is a very well defined goal of this meeting
VardaValar1: If only one group shows up with one interest, it tends to go in that direction.
Fladrifv: that will accelerate the downward movement
VardaValar1: All European WoW, that tends to be the talk.
VardaValar1: Only Silmarillion interest, it goes that way, leaving out people who only know LotR.
Fladrifv: or history of :-)
VardaValar1: Ok, we are a Tolkien fan club and online gamers group.
VardaValar1: So I try to handle business, then see what we are gaming in, then go on to Tolkien, then free chat.
VardaValar1: Then we can choose up suits and go game. : )
Fladrifv: for me the free chat is normaly too late
Fladrifv: or tolkien topic already
Fladrifv: how is the time on the other end of the sea?
VardaValar1: We have Before-meeting, if we want to go to free chat early
VardaValar1: The time is awful for the US, as it is in the middle of the most activity
ArPharazonV: Aran down, might not be in here much longer...
VardaValar1: People aren't off work, or going to supper, or thinking about relaxing in a game.
ArPharazonV: in Karazhan that is
ArPharazonV: *vanishes again*
VardaValar1: We had to push the time to this to help Euro.
Fladrifv: aye
Fladrifv: what is the suitable time for us?
VardaValar1: So we got a time that is hard for all.
Eonwe Valar: We should probably limit side-chat about the game during questing reports to keep them moving along.
VardaValar1: We tried several times, such as the Saturday chat at noon EST for Euro
AriehnV: sunday is a bit of a silly day acctialy
VardaValar1: but it was not attended well at all.
VardaValar1: Saturday was a total ghost town, Arien
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Menelvagor
Fladrifv: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya Menel.
VardaValar1: Friday is murder
VardaValar1: And weekdays people are working or in school
Fladrifv: what is the eu and us ratio?
VardaValar1: Sunday was the best we could do.
Eonwe Valar: Whisper me your gaming info for the GPMU if you don't want to hav eto e-mail it to me.
Menelvagor Valar: Sorry I am late, I was watching Titanic downstairs.
VardaValar1: Look at the Members page
VardaValar1: Sounds dampish
Menelvagor Valar: I love that movie.
Menelvagor Valar: And I am starting to dislike Leonardo di Caprio less.
VardaValar1: Alvareg says he will be available for the test in about 20 minutes. Has to go now.
Menelvagor Valar: which is not a good thing in my humble opinion, but I guess that's age *grin*
VardaValar1: You love the movie but hate one of the main stars. heh
VardaValar1: I haven't seen it.
Menelvagor Valar: It's the movie that's great.
Eonwe Valar: I'm neither a fan of the movie or of Leo Dicaprio,.. but the movie has Theoden as the captain :}
Menelvagor Valar: One has to see past prejudices to truly appreciate anything.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, that suddenly makes me want to watch it. : )
Menelvagor Valar: I never noticed *is ashamed*
Menelvagor Valar: Anyways, sorry to butt in with this newsflash, what did I miss and where are we? :-)
Fladrifv: tried to start the movie 5 times
Fladrifv: meetings and turn up
VardaValar1: Flad, you can check the Members page for Euro/America stats:
Eonwe Valar: VardaValar1: Suggestions are welcome for how to make the meetings more relevant and/or interesting.
VardaValar1: Thanks Eonwe. : )
VardaValar1: The suggestion so far has been to cut down the size of gaming reports
Eonwe Valar: mp :}
Eonwe Valar: Cut down on side-chat during them as well.
VardaValar1: I've heard the complaint quite strongly from people who don't play WoW in the past.
VardaValar1: Make more use of side-windows, Eonwe?
ArPharazonV: ok, raid is over... now I have to catch up for an hour!
VardaValar1: Hi Phar
Eonwe Valar: Well, that, or just hold it until after-meeting. Most of the side-comments given during the questing reports just serve to make the report longer.
Menelvagor Valar: Will do.
VardaValar1: Tolkien chat is the main interest for a number of people and they can't stand to hang around long enough for it to come up.
Eonwe Valar: No "ground-greaking revelations" are drawn from the reporter that way that I've noticed.
Eonwe Valar: *ground-breaking
Fladrifv: or tolkien first?
VardaValar1: I like to let the Tolkien run as long as the chat wants.
VardaValar1: That would not allow business to be conducted first.
Eonwe Valar: As I always say, if the report could be typed up and ready for copy-paste before one is called on, that helps speed up the process as well.
Fladrifv: everybranch its own page
Fladrifv: weekly update
Fladrifv: and summary pasted here aswell
VardaValar1: Its own page?
Fladrifv: web page yes
VardaValar1: We have something like that
VardaValar1: What would you want on the page?
Eonwe Valar: With the new games page, every guild branch will have its own section.
Fladrifv: like wiki or so so easy to add things
VardaValar1: Forum lets you type at will
Eonwe Valar: Aye, there's the Forum as well.
VardaValar1: You can go to the game that you like there and say whatever you like, if it's clean. : )
Fladrifv: only thing is
ArPharazonV: ok, caught up
Fladrifv: for who is the report written
ArPharazonV: thing is, for Europe in any case, it's never sure who's going to make the report
Menelvagor Valar: Normally it would be me or Arien.
VardaValar1: Arien should, really, for Valar, far as I can tell. We don't need the non-Valar reports.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
ArPharazonV: yes, but there's been plenty of times when neither of you are online, or when stuff has happened that you two were not present at
ArPharazonV: and still happens among the other Valar
Menelvagor Valar: then you can fill in on our behalf.
Eonwe Valar: The primary reports are for the questing days.
Fladrifv: how about a time lock on the meeting of 10 min?
VardaValar1: Then it's over now, Fladrif.
ArPharazonV: that beats the purpose of setting up reports first, perhaps, because we can't say whether you'll be present at the meeting
VardaValar1: It's been 58 minutes.
Fladrifv: hehe
Fladrifv: no the clean report part var
Fladrifv: then discussion part is open like now
VardaValar1: You mean gaming part.
Fladrifv: gaming membership and those non interactive parts
Fladrifv: ;-)
VardaValar1: Uldaman and Lothar and LotRO don't go nearly that long, even combined.
Eonwe Valar: In the past, the business meeting went for about 30 minutes. I think that's a fair goal to shoot for.
ArPharazonV: ...well, we could try to get there, Varda ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: it's us Euro's who generally drag it out with our side chatting :P
VardaValar1: Membership is usually short. Just this time I asked for suggestions, since the number of people at meetings dropped badly.
Menelvagor Valar: makes it lively, but long.
ArPharazonV: we're a threat to the lineair progression of these meetings... curse us Europeans!
Fladrifv: lively for the wow..but for lotro people
AriehnV: hmm i wonder .. i try to be short
VardaValar1: Also, the WoW Euro only affects about 3 or 4 members, and so has a disproportionate amount of time.
Menelvagor Valar: mostly just me and Phar, Arien :-)
AriehnV: enthusiasm trakes sometimes over
AriehnV: 'its a shame reallyu
Fladrifv: *not a wower:-)
VardaValar1: If you want us LotRO people to tell what we are doing, we can. But you would die of boredom. We have a ton going daily.
ArPharazonV: we may be with few, Varda.. but we are always quite present here :-)
AriehnV: there is scouting going on btw
AriehnV: ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I'd just want the guild questing day reports, Varda :} Just like that's all I want from WoW :}
AriehnV: yup thats what ye get
VardaValar1: They would run something like Irmo's high level group wiped out massive quests for hours in the Angmar area, while we lower level guys were doing Lone Lands or North Downs. End report. : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: But we tend to group together, and there are far more of us than in WoW all branches together.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: and once again seperate from Europe.
VardaValar1: Irmo is European.
VardaValar1: So is Miriel
Menelvagor Valar: I know that.
VardaValar1: They are in the top leveling group.
VardaValar1: Not separate.
Menelvagor Valar: if you can find a way around the separation, yes.
VardaValar1: Which separation?
VardaValar1: You guys can come to LotRO Landroval, European IP's are not blocked.
ArPharazonV: don't you need to get American versions of the game?
Menelvagor Valar: so the software and servers are the same in both US and Europe?
VardaValar1: You have to go through Turbine.
Menelvagor Valar: which means you have to go around it.
Menelvagor Valar: even if it is through official channels.
VardaValar1: You can buy it directly from Turbine online can't you?
Menelvagor Valar: that's like wandering from one side of the city to the next through a roadblock and saying the city is one.
Menelvagor Valar: Using a creditcard, yes.
Menelvagor Valar: I still won't be able to play using european game cards.
ArPharazonV: Berlin comes to mind..
Fladrifv: creditcards are 20 euro a year
Menelvagor Valar: still, not everyone has them.
VardaValar1: Ok, you guys didn't want to play LotRO anyway, just WoW, so it doesn't matter. : )
Menelvagor Valar: I want to play LotRO.
Menelvagor Valar: there's 2 things that prevent me from doing that.
Menelvagor Valar: comp specs are incredulously high.
Menelvagor Valar: and separation, even if it's a silent and not directly apparent one.
Menelvagor Valar: No offense, but it is and remains a form of discrimination.
VardaValar1: Ok, so your comp isn't good enough. Sorry.
VardaValar1: I saved a long time ahead of the game coming out to have one ready.
Eonwe Valar: Was it not the same in DAoC? Those who wanted to play on American servers had to buy an American copy?
Menelvagor Valar: it was.
Eonwe Valar: How did you manage it?
Menelvagor Valar: I was fortunate enough that back then my father helped me out and back then the brother of Frodo I believe it was.
Menelvagor Valar: can't remember his name.
Menelvagor Valar: one moment, I'll look it up.
VardaValar1: It's not discrimination. Gamers who want high end games need high end comps. The MMORPG's aren't going to go backwards to DOS.
ArPharazonV: I think he means the separation
AriehnV: aye
Menelvagor Valar: the comp specs are not the discrimination.
Eonwe Valar: I believe that was Glaurung, now Lungorthin, Menel.
Menelvagor Valar: though WoW is high end and has like half the specs needed.
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, that is the one.
Menelvagor Valar: He shipped the game for me.
Menelvagor Valar: and the expansion as well I believe.
Eonwe Valar: And the game cards?
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, I think that's enough about this subject.
Menelvagor Valar: my dad's creditcard.
Menelvagor Valar: can't do that anymore.
Eonwe Valar: Ah.
VardaValar1: So the discrimination is against young folk starting out who don't have credit cards?
Menelvagor Valar: anyone who doesn't have one or can't get one.
Menelvagor Valar: Over here you can't just get a creditcard, you have to meet certain financial standard.
Menelvagor Valar: standards*
VardaValar1: Same here. : )
Menelvagor Valar: well, as I see it, you can get a creditcard by paying for it with your other creditcard, and so on.
VardaValar1: You need the first one though : )
Menelvagor Valar: not that hard over there as I understand it.
Eonwe Valar: Anyone using a credit card to pay for a credit card is just asking for financial trouble.
Menelvagor Valar: it happens all over though.
Eonwe Valar: My experience is that anyone offering you a credit card expects you to have an income.
VardaValar1: Ok, so none of you guys can get a credit card, so you can't play LotRO with us. Got it.
Menelvagor Valar: no, that's just me, I don't know about the rest.
Eonwe Valar: Maybe it's just the smart companies offering me credit cards, or the ones not trying to drive me into debt, only milk me for as much as they can get out of me.
Fladrifv: I can, its just that I dont want to be binded by another monthly payment
Menelvagor Valar: just my personal feelings on the matter that I am getting pretty sick of the entire creditcard stuff.
VardaValar1: Credit card for online payment is normal, not just for gaming.
VardaValar1: You can also use a debit card.
Eonwe Valar: Wish I could say it's going away, Menel, but it seems to be going in the other direction. That is, unless everyone in the world starts refusing to pay with a credit card.
Menelvagor Valar: which won't happen.
Menelvagor Valar: credit card companies still earn billions a year.
Fladrifv: can get a non credit credit card nowadays :-)
VardaValar1: Menel, most things online are paid by credit cards, because that is the best way to work it. It's not going away.
Menelvagor Valar: Anyways, shall we move on, I think we have lingered on this topic long enough :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I know, I just hate it.
VardaValar1: Ok, back to the topic
VardaValar1: What do you want to see in a meeting?
VardaValar1: How do we do game reports, or do we just mention what we played that week?
aiguernz has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: well, could we not send in a gaming report from the last week to be put up on the news?
ArPharazonV: I wish people would still pay with cash... anyway, that's up to the majority, I guess, how we summarize
AriehnV: i think it might be an idea just to mention who grouped with who when and what was done?
VardaValar1: You can't pay a machine with cash.
VardaValar1: The "what was done" is what takes so long.
VardaValar1: Who grouped with whom is good.
aiguernz: Im sorry to interrupt .Varda, could you give me the quiz. I have 30 min. to take it. however long it takes.
ArPharazonV: we can just name the quests, the area, or the instance...
Eonwe Valar: I think official branches should have reports, but they should be kept (relatively) short and with no side-chat during.
aiguernz: if ur buzy i can wait a little
VardaValar1: Hello, glad to see you're back.
VardaValar1: Alvareg has limited time and will be gone a week.
AriehnV: well , i mean just like *we managed to do deadmines this week and all targets were achieved*
VardaValar1: So I"ll be on a side chat with him
ArPharazonV: what about other games played this week? :-)
VardaValar1: '
VardaValar1: Eonwe, you have the con. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: just a quick summary should be doable.
Eonwe Valar: Ok :}
Fladrifv: GL aig
AriehnV: good luck to you!
Eonwe Valar: Ok, so we agree at least on gaming reports: relatively short, no side-chat during, and have them pre-typed when possible? ;}
Eonwe Valar: They should be from the official questing day, barring that there's nothign to report then, but maybe something exciting happened during the week.
VardaValar1: Pre-type in forum maybe, and then copy paste here?
Eonwe Valar: We do have questing report forums for WoW branches at least. Please feel free to use them.
AriehnV: I did :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I type pretty fast, copy pasting while alt-tabbing doesn't speed up much, if any.
Eonwe Valar: You can also put a longer report on the forums, sum it up a bit for the meeting.
AriehnV: just this week's is missing
AriehnV: oki
Eonwe Valar: That kind of thing.
Eonwe Valar: As I said, in days past the business meeting went for approximately 30 minutes, give or take a few depending on the news being given that day. I don't think that somewhere in that range is too far off of a goal.
Eonwe Valar: Adjusting for news given, of course :}
Fladrifv: no compromises!
Eonwe Valar: And for when member feedback is called for, like today :}
Eonwe Valar: When we stick to the actual business at hand in the meeting, it goes faster :}
Eonwe Valar: Any more to be said on this topic, or shall we press on?
AriehnV: press on, i have to go soon
Eonwe Valar: Remember that if you have further comment or suggestion, Varda and my e-mails are always open.
VardaValar1: Right. : )
Eonwe Valar: Ok, I think we're done with Member News then.

Eonwe Valar: Web News:
Eonwe Valar: GPMU mails going out tonight. As I told you all earlier, whisper your gaming info to me now to avoid having to e-mail it.
ArPharazonV: oh, can do that
Eonwe Valar: Bunch of new drabbles put up last week, look to the News page for a full list.
Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: Aha, pardon, more web news:
Eonwe Valar: New Article:
Eonwe Valar: Written by our new TV-becoming full member.
Eonwe Valar: Look to the News page and check his Authors page :}

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: Do I need to mention the GPMU again? ;}
Eonwe Valar: WoW Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately, storms kept me out of the game Friday night, so I have no report for you.
ArPharazonV: (have played some other games too, but will get to that later?)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, let's do that after the reports, Phar.
Eonwe Valar: WoW Uldaman:
Eonwe Valar: I came in a bit late for Uldaman Wednesday, but I did come in :}
Eonwe Valar: I did a few quests on my Orc Hunter Kalmo :}
Eonwe Valar: Thus ends the Uldaman report :}
Eonwe Valar: Arien, do you have a WoW Argent Dawn report?
AriehnV: We have indeed
Eonwe Valar: Your floor.
AriehnV: third time we were lucky, and Menelvagor, Ar Pharazons Caldaera and my Faeilvirin went with two others through deadmines
AriehnV: All our targets were achieved despite some minor conflicts in looting and turnover of the additional group members
AriehnV: But everyone lost his head - that is of the bosses ;-) and thus endeth my report
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Arien :}
Eonwe Valar: LotRO Landroval Report:
Eonwe Valar: I'll take Varda's earlier example as this week's report :}
Eonwe Valar: It probably fits well enough :}
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, just found the name of the article by our new Tolkien-Only, so for you all to check it out, he did a review of the Silmarillion.
AriehnV: /me whispers softly that a new story is in the making
Eonwe Valar: Can't wait to read it :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, now, who played something besides WoW and LotRO this week?
Eonwe Valar: I played Starcraft :}
AriehnV: I played Warcraft II while Wow was updating :-)
AriehnV: wednesday
VardaValar1: Welcome to the Valar Guild, Arveleg-(V)!
AriehnV: err II
AriehnV: err III
Eonwe Valar: Hail and Welcome to the Valar Guild, Arveleg! :}
ArPharazonV: I played... well, I started Starcraft again
ArPharazonV: and grats Arveleg!
AriehnV: hooraye for Arveleg :-)
aiguernz: thankyou
Eonwe Valar: May you find much to enjoy while here :}
Menelvagor Valar: Welcome!
aiguernz: may you as well
Fladrifv: *bows*
ArPharazonV: I started playing Starcraft as many perhaps with the upcoming Starcraft 2, and realised again what I didn't like about it :-)
Eonwe Valar: I always find something here that needs doing :}
aiguernz has left the room.
VardaValar1: He had to go, was being called away
ArPharazonV: seems a rather weak interface, little unit options, little graphic options (can't even change the resolution?)
Eonwe Valar: Anyone else play anything besides WoW or LotRO?
Menelvagor Valar: not me.
Eonwe Valar: Starcraft is fun for what it is :}
ArPharazonV: hang on, in sidechat, I'm not done yet
Eonwe Valar: Everyone whisper me Tolkien topics if you have one :}
Eonwe Valar: So we can be ready to move into Tolkien chat :}
Eonwe Valar: Don't want to hold the chat too long, Phar :}
ArPharazonV: allright, let's continue...
ArPharazonV: ehrm, also I went online in Starcraft
ArPharazonV: but it wouldn't recognize my Broodwar cd in XP, so I had to find some patches, and now Bnet doesn't recognize me anymore or something
ArPharazonV: so I pretty much gave up on that
Eonwe Valar: interesting.
ArPharazonV: I also played Warcraft 3 online again, and might go to some other server with Fladrif
VardaValar1: My BW works fine in XP.
ArPharazonV: because it seems he's having Bnet problems
VardaValar1: Reinstall?
ArPharazonV: played a few custom games, and got immediately thrown off by the language people in War3 use....
VardaValar1: Are you using the Valar channel, East realm?
ArPharazonV: the leet, the cursing, the yelling and shouting and intoleration... I try to ignore it and put down my own mark on the gaming atmosphere, but it's a real disappointment compared to WoW
VardaValar1: We need to go to the same place to find each other.
ArPharazonV: yeah, I went to East (mostly because I play at nights and am hoping to run into Valar occasionally) but the channel is always empty
Eonwe Valar: Maybe the GPMU will turn up some more WC3ers for you.
VardaValar1: Thanks
ArPharazonV: perhaps
ArPharazonV: allright, that was basically it
VardaValar1: Boromir says he wants Valar Gamers for WC3
VardaValar1: Might need to email to each other to get attention
Menelvagor Valar: any day in particular?
VardaValar1: Days and times people can play (EST) would be helpful for all games.
VardaValar1: Mine tends to be frightfully random
ArPharazonV: so does mine, really, I don't have a set schedule for when I go play War3
VardaValar1: We need to try to make a set schedule if we really want to get together
VardaValar1: That's why we came up with particular days for games.
VardaValar1: Can you figure morning, afternoon, evening, night as most likely?
Eonwe Valar: I'll see about displaying info on what days people can play certain games on the Games Page.
ArPharazonV: most likely night
Eonwe Valar: When I have it set up and working, I'll let you know.
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar
ArPharazonV: night in Europe, that is
Eonwe Valar: But it will be asked for in the GPMU mail.
ArPharazonV: which would be evening in US then?
Eonwe Valar: Please use VST .
VardaValar1: VST is EST for those who don't know.
VardaValar1: Valar Standard Time
ArPharazonV: then it's evening, from 6 to 9 pm, in EST :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's go to Tolkien time :}

Eonwe Valar: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Has everyone here read the Silmarillion?
VardaValar1: If not, we can stick to LotR.
ArPharazonV: don't mind either way
VardaValar1: Arveleg-(V) made his article on the theme of pride in the Sil
VardaValar1: Is that the main theme in your eyes, or another?
VardaValar1: (He didn't say it was the main theme, just one of them.)
VardaValar1: Or maybe you guys figure there is no one overarching theme for the Sil?
ArPharazonV:, I don't think so... to say there was one overarching theme would probably be an insult to its scope
Eonwe Valar: So, "good triumphs over evil" wouldn't work, despite good winning so many times? ;}
ArPharazonV: it was meant as a mythology, a history from creation to present time (well, sorta) and as such doesn't focus on one particular theme
ArPharazonV: unless it would indeed be conflict, war, good vs/over evil...
ArPharazonV: but even then there are parts of it devoted to creation and peace
Fladrifv: darkness creeps along the sky
Eonwe Valar: creation would be good, as evil seeks destruction :}
Fladrifv: the night is there
Fladrifv: namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: Take care Fladrif :}
VardaValar1: Good night
ArPharazonV: and we still need to War3 together, Flad :-)
Fladrifv: aye
AriehnV: Namarie , flad
Eonwe Valar: I would say pride as a theme can be seen in the SIlmarillion.
Menelvagor Valar: I dare say!
Eonwe Valar: Pride is such an active influence in the historical characters of the First and Second Ages.
Eonwe Valar: To say it's not there is absurd.
Menelvagor Valar: Saeros, Turin, Turgon, Maedhros, Thingol.
Eonwe Valar: I only need to say one name: Fëanor. Case proven :}
Menelvagor Valar: to name some major examples.
Menelvagor Valar: and there is Feanor :-D
Menelvagor Valar: he is a constitution on the subject of pride.
Eonwe Valar: That is to say, "to say pride is not three is absurd." to make sure I am clear.
Eonwe Valar: er, three = there
Eonwe Valar: pretend I said that right :}
ArPharazonV: never said it wasn't there, that it wasn't a theme, just that it wasn't necessarily overarching :-)
ArPharazonV: just one of many
Eonwe Valar: Examples of pride span the entirety of the Sil, though.
Eonwe Valar: Even in actual history, there are lessons to be learned.
Eonwe Valar: Examples of hope also span the entirety.
Fladrifv has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: I would say something like the quote by Gandalf to Bilbo at the end of the Hobbit is in order:
Eonwe Valar: "Surely you don't disbelieve the prophecies, because you had a hand in bringing them about yourself?
Eonwe Valar: You don't really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit?"
Eonwe Valar: "You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!"
Eonwe Valar: To which Bilbo of course responds: "Thank goodness!" :}
VardaValar1: hehe - good quote
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, no further comment on this topic?
VardaValar1: I may when I return, sorry afk short
Eonwe Valar: Pride certainly isn't the only theme, but it does span the text.
AriehnV: Pride is something i believe everyone has a certain share of
AriehnV: sometimes its just a sure knowledge of what you know you are good at
AriehnV: it becomes pride , destructive pride that is when this knowledge becomes the supreme force in ones life
VardaValar1: back
VardaValar1: I agree pride is a major theme, seemed the main cause of all the problems, more than greed or other.
VardaValar1: Redemption seemed major to all of Tolkien's works, to me.
VardaValar1: Pride as in hubris, rather than pride as in keeping honorable.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Eonwe Valar: And redemption is a good one as well.
Eonwe Valar: Both Morgoth and Sauron are given chances to redeem themselves.
VardaValar1: Aye, Arien, the pride that is no longer knowing what one is capable of, but "believing one's own press' so to speak.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: I believe it was "ofermod" in Old English.
ArPharazonV: thin line between pride and confidence sometimes...
VardaValar1: Osse redeems himself, the only Maia to do it.
Eonwe Valar: excessive pride.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe. It was ofermod
ArPharazonV: knowing what you can do and believe you can do something you can't
Eonwe Valar: Believing you are more than you are.

ArPharazonV: is the only difference between the two, that you're right or not?
VardaValar1: One requires enough courage and belief in oneself to attempt to tackle the unknown. But pride can be carried too far into hubris/ofermod.
Eonwe Valar: Melkor thought he should be treated as Eru's equal, or Eru himself.
VardaValar1: One begins to believe one can't be wrong. Others who say you can be are almost evil in that person's sight. Blasphemous. Like worshipping oneself.
ArPharazonV: but if he *had* been Eru's equal, would his behavior have been justified?
ArPharazonV: if you're proud about something and it's actually true, does that make it right?
VardaValar1: The point is that Melkor was not equal to Eru.
ArPharazonV: just seems like a rather crooked concept to me
VardaValar1: Of course if you are justly proud, then you are justly proud. Melkor was not.
ArPharazonV: so if you think you're the best but you're not, it's evil pride, but if you think you're the best while you are the best, it's not?
Menelvagor Valar: pride is a matter of point of view as well I reckon.
VardaValar1: If a person tears down others to make himself appear to be the best, does that make him the best?
ArPharazonV: if a person is the best and tears others down to remain the best, or to show that he's the best, does that make it justified?
Eonwe Valar: Well, pride is a matter of degrees rather than point of view as I see it.
VardaValar1: Melkor must not have believed he was the best. Or he would not continually have sought the Sacred Fire, or needed to tear down others.
ArPharazonV: then how can it be pride?
Eonwe Valar: That's where one crosses the line into Arrogance.
VardaValar1: Aye, you have a new word.
ArPharazonV: if he does not believe he's the best but tries to make himself appear as the best, is that still pride?
ArPharazonV: is that still arrogance? or is that deception and wishful thinking?
VardaValar1: Arrogance, hubris, ofermod are not pride.
VardaValar1: in the good sense.
VardaValar1: Tell us, Phar.
ArPharazonV: maybe I'm biased, but I cannot see pride ever being used in a good sense
ArPharazonV: confidence, yes, but not pride
VardaValar1: Pride in a good sense is confidence.
VardaValar1: Another word for it.
ArPharazonV: then maybe it's just a matter of definition
Eonwe Valar: Melkor belives that he is entitled to be worshipped as the greatest being. I'd say that's a bit of hubris and arrogance.
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar.
ArPharazonV: I consider pride and arrogance to be the same thing
ArPharazonV: you consider confidence and pride to be the same thing
VardaValar1: Pride is a general word with degrees ranging from confidence to arrogance.
Eonwe Valar: So when you are "proud" of sometihng you've done, that's arrogance?
VardaValar1: It is a wider word.
AriehnV: arrogoance has a very negative touch and echo
VardaValar1: Right, Arien.
ArPharazonV: for me, so does pride :-)
VardaValar1: Phar, you can't ever be proud of something you've done?
ArPharazonV: perhaps, if you keep it to yourself... it's a vague area
Eonwe Valar: Well then, call me arrogant when I tell my children sometime after I have them that I'm proud of them :}
AriehnV: I just love to tell other people about my achievements :-D
VardaValar1: I'm already proud of my children for the fine people they've become.
ArPharazonV: to be proud of other people and to be proud of yourself... there's a difference, perhaps... maybe there *is* another thing that can be called pride also
Eonwe Valar: As I said, pride is a matter of degrees :}
AriehnV: indeed i agree, Eonwe :-)
VardaValar1: One can be proud of being part of the Valar Guild, for instance, but it is not evil.
ArPharazonV: but if you're proud about your achievements and push them in other people's faces, that's definitely bordering to arrogance in my eyes
VardaValar1: Pushing them in someone's face is downright rude, aye. : )
Eonwe Valar: It can range from pride in one's accomplishments, or in one's children, to Arrogance/hubris.
Menelvagor Valar: just telling others about it makes it pride though :-)
Eonwe Valar: One should be proud of their accomplishments.
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure about that, Menelvagor... could be arrogance :-)
VardaValar1: You are going to make it hard to recruit, Menel. : )
Menelvagor Valar: but once it becomes obnoxious, well, the word says it all :-D
ArPharazonV: one might be proud of his achievements, tell them once or twice to others, but if you dwell on it, it can become arrogant
Eonwe Valar: Anyone here watch Stargate: Atlantis?
ArPharazonV: I did, but they shut it down here somewhere in the second season
Eonwe Valar: Rodney McKay, at the beginning of the series, is a prime example of Arrogance.
VardaValar1: I have a few times, bad time of day for me. Sauron likes it quite a bit.
Eonwe Valar: His appearances in Stargate:SG1 before Atlantis are also pride examples of Arrogance.
ArPharazonV: I consider arrogance not evil as such, unless it breeds evil actions... arrogance/pride I mostly view as a weakness in one's personality, not an evil
Eonwe Valar: He's good at what he does, but he thinks that because he's good, he's the best, and everyone should cowtow to him.
Eonwe Valar: er, kowtow.
Menelvagor Valar: kowtow?
ArPharazonV: if you look at Atlantis he's pretty much the best in what he does... but does showing that off still count as a good sense of pride? :-)
Menelvagor Valar: showing off is arrogance.
Eonwe Valar: His attitude towards others makes it arrogance.
AriehnV: yep
ArPharazonV: exactly... and where's the line between telling people about your achievements and showing off?
Eonwe Valar: Contrast him to Samantha Carter.
ArPharazonV: whether people want to hear it or not?
Menelvagor Valar: the line is very thin.
AriehnV: well i am proud to say that i have a bed waiting fo me now :-D
AriehnV: so am i arrogant?
Eonwe Valar: Good night Arien :}
Menelvagor Valar: some people would draw that line elsewhere than others.
VardaValar1: Ok - so you want us to use the less wide terms. Melkor is arrogant.
ArPharazonV: is that an achievement, Ariehn? :-)
VardaValar1: Good night, Arien!
AriehnV: hehe
ArPharazonV: goodnight!
AriehnV: good night all !
Menelvagor Valar: I, at least, are proud of you :-)
Menelvagor Valar: but I am following suit with Arien.
AriehnV: *Blushes*
Menelvagor Valar: So good night everyone!
ArPharazonV: Namarie Menelvagor!
AriehnV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: Good night
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie!
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Next week, everyone brings an English dictionary with them to Tolkien chat :}
VardaValar1: I have one right here. : )
Menelvagor Valar: (oh, I will be online for a while yet, due to showerage :-D)
Eonwe Valar: That way we can skip the definitions and talk about the topic :}
ArPharazonV: I really shouldn't be talking about this subject, pride/arrogance can make me so angry sometimes... and catching myself having it from time to time doesn't help either
Menelvagor Valar: even definitions are subject to perspective *grin*
VardaValar1: We need to try not to derail the topic with these definition things when we all know them.
ArPharazonV: I really do consider it the worst of the seven sins
excelsiorjss has entered the room.
excelsiorjss has left the room.
VardaValar1: We are trying to communicate and we all know what the other guy is trying to say.
Eonwe Valar: Dictionaries are meant to lay down the official definition of a word. They're put there to make official a language.
ArPharazonV: what does the dictionary say about pride?
Menelvagor Valar: aye, but even dictionaries can be flawed.
VardaValar1: We can pull out the dictionary - we've done it before.
VardaValar1: And if you won't accept the dictionary, does that mean we can't talk at all?
Menelvagor Valar: they lay down what is most likely true, but necessarily true for an individual person.
Menelvagor Valar: not necessarily*
VardaValar1: Words are communication between people, not just for one person to decide.
Eonwe Valar: Well, if languages are defined by an individual, then no one is ever going ot be able to communicate.
Menelvagor Valar: true.
Menelvagor Valar: but it is not words we are talking about, it is definitions.
Menelvagor Valar: definitions may change according to the time spirit or the will of the mob.
Eonwe Valar: That is why there are scholars who spend time actually studying a language, and help to define the rules for a language to be used by others who speak that language.
Menelvagor Valar: which is a good thing.
VardaValar1: JRRT worked on the Oxford Dictionary.
ArPharazonV: I have met my share of proud/arrogant people in my life, and that has quite shaped my definitions and opinions... so if I think of pride in another way than you, that is something that must be addressed
Menelvagor Valar: but still, definitions are always possible to change due to a change of perspective.
ArPharazonV: if we want to have a discussion about a term we agree about
Eonwe Valar: Well, there's advancement of a language, then there's degradation of a language.
VardaValar1: I am going to call it a night.
Eonwe Valar: to say that every word is subject to interpretation is degradation of the language.
VardaValar1: I need to help put up wallpaper.
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Varda, have fun :-)
Eonwe Valar: Take care Varda :}
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie.
Menelvagor Valar: and now I really am going to take a shower :-)
Eonwe Valar: Take care menel.
ArPharazonV: goodnight Menel!
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: I think I'll call it here too.
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*
Eonwe Valar: I have GPMU mails to send out.
ArPharazonV: well, then there's nothing left for me to say, or people to talk to ;-)
ArPharazonV: I'll just save and send soon
Eonwe Valar: Ok.
Eonwe Valar: Take care all, good night, sleep well, and have fun.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Bior the Ythling has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.