Valar Guild

June 24, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (5)
    Members: AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, VardaValar1 (presiding)
    Friend: Hyarion/Srekal86

Meeting begins
    One new member: Celeborn-(V)
    One new story online this week: "Curse of Angmar"
    Numerous works in progress.
    Games page update progressing
    WC3: Arien, Ar-Pharazon, Fladrif
    D2X: Varda
    StarCraft/BroodWar: Eonwe, Varda
    LotRO: many members. Summer Solstice Festival
    WoW special get-together days:
       Argent Dawn: Arien, Ar-Pharazon
       Lothar: Eonwe, guild-friend Dracxil/Beline
       Uldaman: Eonwe
    Numenorean colonies.
    Names of Arien
    Added new link to the Links page for a language course:
       Parma Tyelpelassiva
    Diacritical remarks

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
ArPharazonV: Saw Pirates of the Caribbean 3 today! Downloaded version, but still :-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya all
ArPharazonV: it didn't include the post-credits scene though, which was a shame... but I guess I'll see that some other time
AriehnV: Aiya there :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: I thought the post-credits scene wrapped up the movie, a good ending for it.
VardaValar1: Pirates 3 talk, arrr
ArPharazonV: immediately following I downloaded the entire soundtrack for both films 2 and 3... good music, that
VardaValar1: Stirring
AriehnV: just let me hand in this quest at this horrible demon and i ll be with you
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a moment.
VardaValar1: Be careful, Arien : )
ArPharazonV: I already had 1's soundtrack for quite a while
AriehnV: heh
ArPharazonV: Yo ho, all together, hoist the colours high....
VardaValar1: The music gives energy and I enjoy it. : )
VardaValar1: I happen to be in Diablo 2 at the moment, keeping up the tradition the rest of the guild is setting by being somewhere else at the same time as the meeting. ;-)
AriehnV: ok here now :-)
ArPharazonV: I'm mostly a fan of the sadder pieces, like hoist the colours, and Davy Jone's theme... sad, but putting shivers on your spine ;-)
AriehnV: i am good at the moment , Varda ;-)
VardaValar1: Minor keys, I like those quite often.
ArPharazonV: they just started airing the show Heroes this week, and I just returned from watching the first episode, so I'm all yours, no games in the background!
VardaValar1: Nice : )
VardaValar1: Last one I saw was the season finale a while back. New ones starting?
ArPharazonV: Jones', btw, not Jone's :-)
ArPharazonV: first episode alltogether here
ArPharazonV: first season
Srekal86 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Good show. Only one I watch regularly and on purpose.
VardaValar1: Aiya Hyarion :-)
VardaValar1: What happened to everyone?
ArPharazonV: that good? I heard a lot about it, but one episode is too hard to tell
ArPharazonV: it's quite popular in the US I believe?
Srekal86: 'lo
VardaValar1: That many bad ones - TV is driving us to computer games. : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: Heroes is popular in the US, aye.
AriehnV: Aiya there
VardaValar1: Srekal, do you still have your usual numbers of people showing in your other chats?
VardaValar1: Boy we get tuned out fast. ;-)
Srekal86: varda, yep
VardaValar1: Ok, so it's just us. Thanks, Srekal.
Srekal86: maybe people are just on summer vacation.
ArPharazonV: I know Fladrif is
Eonwe Valar: back
ArPharazonV: sorry, just popped in my head, he said 1 or 2 days ago that he would be going on vacation :-)
VardaValar1: Maybe so. But the numbers are the same on your other chats, so it sounds like just us.
AriehnV: where is Menelvagor then? Is he still be
VardaValar1: Looks like we're all back from afk now?
AriehnV: busy with his studies ?
Eonwe Valar: Heroes, sounds familiar. People with super-powers? Asian guy who can time travel?
ArPharazonV: that's the one...
ArPharazonV: only seen the first episode today, they just started airing it, but that's it :-)
VardaValar1: Right Eonwe
ArPharazonV: Menelvagor's not online in MSN either
ArPharazonV: so wouldn't know
VardaValar1: You can look at the show on the internet at
Eonwe Valar: I've only seen a couple of episodes of that, comes on Right before Stargate:SG1 (until this week's SG1 finale, anyway) but it does look interesting.
ArPharazonV: aww man, they cut off Stargate here in the middle of the 9th season...
VardaValar1: ouch
ArPharazonV: hope it'll be back after summer or something
Eonwe Valar: They spaced the 10th season out too much over here. Makes it kind of hard to follow the story when they do that.
VardaValar1: Aye, that's death on a show.
ArPharazonV: I found a website with summaries, will probably read up on "recent" episodes when they start airing again
Eonwe Valar: Stargate:SG1 managed to be one of my favorite sci-fi shows.
VardaValar1: Ready to start the meeting? Looks like a record for our smallest.
ArPharazonV: but yeah, I think they cut Desperate Housewives season 3 here in 3 pieces or something, months apart... and other shows are not that different
ArPharazonV: they're still in the beginning of Lost season 3 too
Eonwe Valar: Think I had a meeting with only 4 once, Varda :}
ArPharazonV: when they cut it from the air
VardaValar1: StarGate is good, but it came on too late for me for a long time
ArPharazonV: hmm... how many were here last week?
Eonwe Valar: Maybe twice.
VardaValar1: O good. I've added one to your count by being here. : )

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership news:
Eonwe Valar: I watch it on Sci-Fi Channel, 7pm Central time every Friday for new episodes, some episodes also played during the wek in the afternoon.
Eonwe Valar: I'll be quiet now :}
VardaValar1: We currently have 127 total Valar registered, 108 as Full Members.
VardaValar1: and 5 are here. : )
VardaValar1: Fladrif is on vacation, according to Phar : )
VardaValar1: Pharazon kindly chaired the meeting last time, and is much appreciated for that!
VardaValar1: Our new member this week is Celeborn-(V)
VardaValar1: He's been quite active with us in LotRO and has been good to have in the group.
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?

VardaValar1: Web Report:
VardaValar1: New story up this week, from Cassia and Siobhan
VardaValar1: "Curse of Angmar"
VardaValar1: It was written before LotRO came out, which gave it an interesting flavor, at least for me, when reading it.
VardaValar1: Especially in light of our attempt in the rp to be in LotRO without seeing it first
VardaValar1: It also has an obvious Pirates of the Carribbean reference that you might get a kick out of.
VardaValar1: Arveleg-(V) is now working on a batch of articles for us, and they are under editing as we speak, and some slight author rewrites
VardaValar1: But it looks promising
VardaValar1: Any other web news?
ArPharazonV: PotC reference? *goes to read*
VardaValar1: hehe
Eonwe Valar: I have some.
VardaValar1: Fire away, Eonwe : )
Eonwe Valar: The GPMU is one week away from its deadline, so if you haven't sent your gaming info in yet, please do so soon!
ArPharazonV: Or else? :-)
Eonwe Valar: I'll try to have the new Games Page ready for next Sunday.
ArPharazonV: though I think I gave you my info in an IM, I'm not sure...
Eonwe Valar: Or else is good :} Just don't know or else what :}
VardaValar1: Will it have the same url? I need to know whether to update my links to Gaming
Eonwe Valar: It'll be at the same place, yes :}
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Thanks!
Eonwe Valar: That's it.
VardaValar1: If anyone has the urge to write articles from the new Children of Hurin, please run them by me. :-)
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe!
AriehnV: I am working on Bonds without Hope
VardaValar1: What is that, Arien?
VardaValar1: chapter name?
Eonwe Valar: Phar, you gave me your gaming info at the beginning of the month.
AriehnV: it is a new story set in Lond daer or around it
VardaValar1: Where is Lond daer?
AriehnV: I hope tro finish it this week
VardaValar1: That would be fabulous. : )
ArPharazonV: ok
AriehnV: Lond Daer is in Eriador southwest of the shire, the oldest port that Tar Aldarion founded when he started travelling around
ArPharazonV: Lond Daer... Numenorean haven on the westcoast of Middle-earth, from where so much wood was cut, right?
VardaValar1: ahh, thanks!
AriehnV: correct :-)
ArPharazonV: right :-)
VardaValar1: Ships must have wood.
ArPharazonV: Like I would not know the colonies of my own realm *grin*
VardaValar1: Yay Phar!
AriehnV: *hehe* well your people was a bit ruthless there
VardaValar1: And Phar would be happy to write up some short articles about those spots...
AriehnV: and this conflict is part of the story
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: pff, I'm a king, and a conqueror... I have servants and scribes to write it all up!
AriehnV: i wont say any more*grin*
VardaValar1: Get those scribes to work, Phar!
VardaValar1: I'm looking forward to reading it, Arien : )
VardaValar1: Any further web news?

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Games played that were not LotRO or WoW, anyone?
ArPharazonV: Ariehn, do you have the HoME series?
ArPharazonV: might want to check the story of Tal-Elmar at the twelfth book for inspiration, or to make sure you're not doing anything that has already been done ;-)
VardaValar1: Nice tip, Phar, thanks. : )
AriehnV: i have only the first two books of that series , Phar
ArPharazonV: it's about the Numenorean colonisation of Middle-earth through the eyes of the indigenous inhabitants, somewhere in the Second Age
ArPharazonV: might bear some relation to whatever you're planning
AriehnV: Played  a  bit Frozen throne , to start again when i installed it on my new machine :-)
ArPharazonV: oh aye, played a bit of Frozen Throne too, some with Fladrif, some alone... we should meet up some time :-)
AriehnV: cool, Phar and where can i find that?
ArPharazonV: part 12 of HoME, the final story
ArPharazonV: for some summaries, google Tal-Elmar :-)
AriehnV: will do :-)
VardaValar1: Diablo 2 Expansion here.
Eonwe Valar: I played some Starcraft.
VardaValar1: Online, Eonwe?
VardaValar1: Of course online. Just us that usually LAN it. : )
VardaValar1: LotRO news:
Eonwe Valar: No, offline. Practicing for SC2 :}
VardaValar1: ahhh. I play it offline, as BW sometimes : )
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: what race?
VardaValar1: LotRO:
VardaValar1: From June 10 to July 20, Summer Solstice festivities are underway!
VardaValar1: (Zerg is my favorite, but I play them all, Phar)
VardaValar1: This is the time to learn the four racial dances, for any race.
VardaValar1: Next chance will be next summer.
VardaValar1: Tips for handling the dances are on the News page. If any want to know now, just ask.
VardaValar1: WoW Euro
VardaValar1: Arien, do you have a report?
AriehnV: aye there is a small report :-)
VardaValar1: Small is good too : )
AriehnV: and the people concerned are here :-D
AriehnV: Being myself, that is my big boy Finduilasse and Pharas Care Bear Calaron
VardaValar1: Go Care Bears!
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: ouch
AriehnV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Welcome back. : )
AriehnV: oops thanks :-)
AriehnV: what came through?
Eonwe Valar: Last thing was care bear
ArPharazonV: this care bear got 28k armor this week ^^ nearly at the big 30000!
AriehnV: cool :-) Calaron and Findu took the ruins of Baari apart while playing with handlers and Ildari overseers and collecting tablets
AriehnV: we were eager to carry on the task at the next ruins but found that we were too tired and too outnumbered between patrolling elites, eyes , casters and sort of champions
AriehnV: so we hope to go back there soon :-)
AriehnV: I forgot the name of course ;-)
AriehnV: But thus endeth my report
VardaValar1: Phar? Name?
ArPharazonV: the Ata'mal Terrace, it was
Eonwe Valar: Sounds like the Ruins of Karabor right outside the Black Temple.
VardaValar1: He's got a good memory, thanks, Phar.
AriehnV: next to that
Eonwe Valar: yeah, Ata;mal Terrace.
VardaValar1: Eonwe has the next report. Pardon while I answer the door. : )
ArPharazonV: I actually went back there today with a group of 5, 2 of which were members from my guild, to get the... Heart of Fury?
ArPharazonV: I'd already done it, but hey, they needed help ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Good to see you're helping :}
Eonwe Valar: ok, here we go with Lothar:
ArPharazonV: sure... all this epic gear... what good is it if I can't help kill some Orcs?
Eonwe Valar: Beline and Eonwe 2-manned the Undead side of Stratholme all the way to Baron Rivendare in order to complete a quest to kill Ras Frostwhisper.
Eonwe Valar: Afterwards, we fought to Ras Frostwhisper in Scholomance, made him mortal, and killed him.
Eonwe Valar: After Beline went offline, I continued helping the Consortium near Manaforge Ultris.
Eonwe Valar: Take concludes the Lothar report. I also popped into Uldaman for a bit on Uldaman Wednesday, bit nothing to tell there.
Eonwe Valar: Take = That.
Eonwe Valar: I'm about 2500 short of my epic mount, if that's of interest to anyone.
VardaValar1: I'm interested. : )
Eonwe Valar: Epic flying mount, excuse me.
VardaValar1: Maybe the Laytonrim can toss a few silver your way. ; )
VardaValar1: Pardon, translated it automatically
VardaValar1: Bilbo is on WoW at the moment. : )
AriehnV: errr i cant be bothered to grind for a flying mount , less an epic one , hehe, so i will get trhere gradually painfully slow but i will get there
Eonwe Valar: Good that you understood :}
Eonwe Valar: I'm skipping the regular flying mount so I don't end up with 2 inventory spots taken up by flying mounts.
VardaValar1: Grind? Bah. We pick up the money while doing other things.
AriehnV: for which reason i decided to continue on Finduilaswen to take her to 70 :-)
AriehnV: so she will get flying form :d
Eonwe Valar: And aye, I'm not just going out there killing stuff for things to sell. I'm questing.
VardaValar1: What level are you now, on Finduilaswen?
ArPharazonV: I'm back at 500g after selling 20 primal fires to a friend who needed it for some gear, which I'd farmed quite some time ago... 400 more until I can pay off my loan, and then 5000 to the epic flying skill ;-)
AriehnV: so am I , she is 40 now
VardaValar1: Be a while yet, just enough time for your LotRO DVD to come in. ; )
AriehnV: hehe
VardaValar1: Arien, did you want to comment on the Horde possibilities for Euro?
AriehnV: Yes I will
AriehnV: I was exploring the pvp server Auchindoun for that purpoe for some time but i decided it is not suitable
VardaValar1: Because it's pvp?
AriehnV: No , it is not mainly that , the lack of maturity of the players
ArPharazonV: well.... that's a pvp server for you ;-)
VardaValar1: The mature ones left for LotRO ; )
VardaValar1: Also a normal pvp server, aye
ArPharazonV: rp-servers tend to have more mature players
AriehnV: hehe ;-)
AriehnV: so i am on The Shatar , which is rp , to have a lookout
AriehnV: it seems a nice server to me actually , nice folk ,s erious roleplayers
VardaValar1: It really sounds as if you might be spread too thin, across WoW two servers plus LotRO and whatever else. Sounds like you need to do some delegating and need more people.
VardaValar1: Do you have a plan for handling this?
AriehnV: aye , i know , but let me see first whether it is a suitable place , then i can start thinking about that
VardaValar1: Okies, so you have a plan. It's scouting the servers for good spots.
VardaValar1: Thanks.
AriehnV: :-)
VardaValar1: Do we have any further Gaming news?
VardaValar1: I will mention that LotRO continues to be a busy place for guild members. : )

VardaValar1: Tolkien!
VardaValar1: Phar, you were mentioning some of the colonies that you knew of. Could you expand on that a little?
ArPharazonV: hmm... let me think
VardaValar1: Lond Daer for one. : )
ArPharazonV: there was Lond Daer, Umbar, Dol Amroth
ArPharazonV: Isengard and Osgiliath were later, I think?
AriehnV: aye , i think so
ArPharazonV: and undoubtedly some other colonies too, to seize control over the region and get lumber for the fleets
VardaValar1: Is Annuminas one?
AriehnV: Cardolan was another realm .. let me check of the capital there
ArPharazonV: while Umbar was pretty much a stronghold of those loyal to Pharazon, continuing a grudge against the descendants of Elendil until the End of the Third Age, and perhaps beyond, Dol Amroth belonged to the Elf-friends from the start
ArPharazonV: Annuminas, Fornost.... not sure
ArPharazonV: it seems Annuminas was founded by Elendil, so after the fall of Numenor
VardaValar1: Aye, that was the Faithful, not the earlier Numenoreans.
ArPharazonV: the Faithful, that was it
AriehnV: Tharbad seemed to have played a big role once , was that a numenorean city?
ArPharazonV: not sure, crossed my mind too
VardaValar1: That's an interesting thought, a little history on the Numenorean cities would be interesting, especially for LotRO players walking around in them.
ArPharazonV: hmm, that's right... sailing up the Gwathlo from Lond Daer the Numenoreans established fortresses up the coast of the river, Tharbad was one of htem
ArPharazonV: originally to protect their lumber-cutting businesses from the hostile population, but later also as a line of defense against Sauron
ArPharazonV: in one assault on Middle-earth around 1700 SA he was routed at the battle that took place in Tharbad, though I'm taking this from Wiki, not sure what book we would find this in ;-)
ArPharazonV: probably HoME or UT
ArPharazonV: the road through it and the bridge later fell in decay, but it was used by both Boromir and the Black Riders in their journeys north
ArPharazonV: as well as the sons of Elrond and the Rangers who came to Aragorn in Rohan (I think the sons of Elrond came too?)
VardaValar1: Aye, they did.
VardaValar1: Elladan and Elrohir rode in along with Halbarad and the other Rangers.
VardaValar1: The twins often rode with the Rangers. Good way to kill more Orcs.
ArPharazonV: I recall Tharbad being a problem in UT, because it was established that Ringwraiths hating water, and if the bridge was ruined, how would they come across?
VardaValar1: Ringwraiths flew high over water
VardaValar1: Running water is usually the problem for ghosts in folklore
VardaValar1: Ferry them? : )
AriehnV: Styx .. Chaeron :-D
VardaValar1: I usually see it as Charon, but that might be right too
AriehnV: Charon then aye
ArPharazonV: sounds archaic as Chaeron, I like that :-)
AriehnV: me being me and me names ..
VardaValar1: Speaking of, how many names for Arien can we come up with? : )
VardaValar1: Anar for the vessel of the sun?
VardaValar1: That would be Quenya
VardaValar1: Anar the Firegolden
VardaValar1: Fruit of Laurelin
VardaValar1: Vasa, the Heart of Fire
Eonwe Valar: Vasa would be another name.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
VardaValar1: I made a misstatement on an earlier time. It was the Moon that rose when Fingolfin set foot on Middle-earth.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
AriehnV: it will do for a start , i can play with those :-)
VardaValar1: Firegolden can be translated into others of Tolkien's languages too.
Eonwe Valar: There's also Urwendi, the name of pilot of the Sun in BoLT.
VardaValar1: You may find that in LotRO some names are filtered (Varda, Elbereth, etc) and some are already taken, so we may do creative misspelling and adding elements.
VardaValar1: Aye, thanks Eonwe!
VardaValar1: Side note showing that Morgoth could no longer fly by the time the Sun rose, because
ArPharazonV: Firegolden....
VardaValar1: he had been dispersing his power into the earth and his servants.
VardaValar1: and was becoming ever more bound to the earth.
ArPharazonV: I found a pdf text with some Numenorean language, apparently zôr is fire and pharaz is gold.... but Pharazor wouldn't really help your case ;-)
AriehnV: hehe true true
ArPharazonV: I can link you the text, but it seems it's a zipped file with the text in it, so the link would go directly to the file
VardaValar1: Urin the Fiery, from The Lost Road
ArPharazonV: there's also some links to other work at the bottom of the file, might be interesting
VardaValar1: found a batch in Lost Road
VardaValar1: Ur-anar
VardaValar1: Aryante
VardaValar1: Eriant "Day-bringer"
VardaValar1: Ankale
VardaValar1: Anar is Quenya, Anor is Sindarin
VardaValar1: pardon no
VardaValar1: Anor is Noldorin
VardaValar1: Arien Sun-maiden
VardaValar1: Urien
VardaValar1: (side note, Arrow-elves is a name of the Teleri)
Eonwe Valar: Interesting.
VardaValar1: Arien replaced the earlier version of Urien
VardaValar1: We could mess with it, like Anarwen : )
VardaValar1: -wen meaning maiden
AriehnV: hehe i like that
AriehnV: okay girls and boys if i yawn one more time i get a cramp in my jaw ;-)
ArPharazonV: Goodnight then Arien :-)
AriehnV: or I fall asleep on the keyboard or something like that
AriehnV: Mara lome, Nosse Valaima :0
VardaValar1: Good night
AriehnV: er Valarina , Nosse Valarina
ArPharazonV: Namarie
AriehnV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: Tom refers to himself as an Aborigine, in an early version, later struck out
AriehnV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Guess we all wound up looking at our books? : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Phar was surfing anyway : )
ArPharazonV: *nod* finding all sorts of interesting links!
ArPharazonV: is the source site for the link I just gave, seems to be a quite comprehensive language site
VardaValar1: Here's a spot with some language links ;-)
VardaValar1: New links to add are welcome
ArPharazonV: well I don't see this one among them, so feel free to add it :-)
VardaValar1: with a Phar credit : )
VardaValar1: It looks really familiar, wonder if it's under another section
ArPharazonV: there are also some texts and poetry in Elvish languages, maybe that's it?
ArPharazonV: running a quick Ctrl F through the page doesn't show anything with the name Parma Tyelpelassiva though, which is the name of the site
VardaValar1: same here, ran a Find in this page
VardaValar1: Ok, it's on our Links page now. Language courses are always good to locate
VardaValar1: Some Phar guy got credit for locating it.
ArPharazonV: Good for him, I say!
VardaValar1: Aye!
ArPharazonV: I don't see it!
VardaValar1: Try reload now?
VardaValar1: First time uploaded before saving it : )
ArPharazonV: there we go!
ArPharazonV: it's Tyel though, not Tylel ;-)
VardaValar1: thanky
VardaValar1: You be quite right, there.
VardaValar1: Try 'er again
ArPharazonV: yay! :-)
VardaValar1: Woot!
VardaValar1: Now I have to find an easy way to show correct diacritical marks
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a few minutes
VardaValar1: I wound up with a copy/paste page
ArPharazonV: diacritical?
VardaValar1: I think we've been in After-meeting for a while anyway : )
VardaValar1: cute little marks above and below letters to change the pronunciation.
ArPharazonV: ah, accents
VardaValar1: Your keyboard is probably set that way.
ArPharazonV: ~
VardaValar1: More than accents, but aye, that idea
ArPharazonV: "^'`
VardaValar1: An accent is just to show stress on a syllable.
ArPharazonV: !
ArPharazonV: I'm becoming quite a Wiki-fan these days...
Srekal86: what kind of wiki?
Srekal86: oh, wikipedia
VardaValar1: Maybe I should just leave Tolkien to Wiki, much less work for me.
ArPharazonV: wikipedia, aye
VardaValar1: but the copyright writers hate it.
ArPharazonV: :-)
Srekal86: oh good news, TG passed up Wikipedia's Tolkien section in activity, we're growing much faster.
Srekal86: I've been trying to help Wikipedia but there is so much spam/inaccuracy in their articles.
VardaValar1: I agree, Srekal. One reason I'm not a fan.
Srekal86: they are almost too strict
VardaValar1: Congratulations on your TG!
Srekal86: for instance John Howe says any non-profit website that credits him for his images can use his images on their site
Srekal86: Wikipedia still wonn't let you upload those images because they have to be essentially free no matter what without restrictions
VardaValar1: Which we do. ;-)
Srekal86: won't*
VardaValar1: Wiki may have a desire for profit in the future
Srekal86: nah
Srekal86: No one person has the power to make that decision, so it won't happen.
VardaValar1: I found a batch today of articles in our Encyc that are like you said, hard to navigate backwards from when not using the Frames.
Srekal86: Definitely need to get rid of those frames :p PHP would make it so much easier.
VardaValar1: Sounds as if John Howe's work meets that then
VardaValar1: Games site now has the PHP
Srekal86: nice.
VardaValar1: Alatar says he's moving us to a new server sometime in the future so we can use the current PHP version
VardaValar1: Games site is now being redone, should be a few weeks
VardaValar1: Frames are not required to use our site, just one of the ways
VardaValar1: It was rigged for people who could not use frames and barely could handle graphics, by member request.
VardaValar1: When you pay by the minute for your connection, it can be a problem.
Srekal86: who pays by the minute?
VardaValar1: Some of our people in Europe.
VardaValar1: Some cafes also
VardaValar1: I agree, Srekal, that PHP and CSS is a good thing and hope to move to it.
VardaValar1: Phar, I looked up diacritical in an actual dictionary and stand corrected.
VardaValar1: We used accent in our local region only to refer to syllabic stresses, but now I have no word for that left.
VardaValar1: Replacement suggestion?
ArPharazonV: wouldn't know :-)
VardaValar1: You are being hard on the poets now.
VardaValar1: Destroying our vocabulary.
ArPharazonV: blame wiki ;-)
VardaValar1: I will just ignore it, and call our use "jargon". :-)

ArPharazonV: isn't there a saying involving ignorance? can't recall how it went...
VardaValar1: Would that be "poetic license"? ;-) Ok, the puns are getting bad.
VardaValar1: Ignorance is bliss.
VardaValar1: I disagree.
ArPharazonV: well, it's bliss, anyway... but nothing more than that?
VardaValar1: Go look it up under quotations ;-)
VardaValar1: I dislike insufficient data.
VardaValar1: And be careful as to whom they ascribe quotations to. Much misinformation out there.
VardaValar1: I'm hungry, and the family probably is too. So namarie for now!
ArPharazonV: "Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise."
ArPharazonV: that's where ignorance is bliss comes from
VardaValar1: Ugh
ArPharazonV: Willful ignorance (or vincible ignorance) is a bad faith decision to avoid becoming informed about something so as to avoid having to make undesirable decisions that such information might prompt.
VardaValar1: So where wisdom is bliss, it is folly to be ignorant? :-)
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: indeed, the original phrase only seems to refer to some situations, and not all as its derivative would seem to imply
VardaValar1: The quote doesn't really mean that ignorance is bliss. : )
ArPharazonV: nope, but it implies that it can be :-)
VardaValar1: It can be for a while.
VardaValar1: Not knowing a bomb is about to drop on your head prevents panic.
VardaValar1: You find out when it happens
VardaValar1: but never had a chance to step to one side.
ArPharazonV: but knowing it might give you time to avoid it, and thus help you in the process
ArPharazonV: aye
VardaValar1: Maybe I should have used "anvil" instead of "bomb". : )
ArPharazonV: I would rather like to know if an anvil is about to hit my head ;-)
VardaValar1: So does one want short-term bliss or the chance to plan and prevent the problem?
VardaValar1: Aye : )
VardaValar1: Ok, off to stave off the hungry hordes at my house. : )
ArPharazonV: when not faced with the situation I would prefer the latter, but I cannot predict my actions *should* I know that an anvil is falling on my head
ArPharazonV: maybe I'll panic after all?
VardaValar1: Panic might help you move out of the way. : )
VardaValar1: Just don't freeze
ArPharazonV: if an anvil is about to fall next to me, and seeing it coming I might panic and step to that one side, it doesn't help :-)
VardaValar1: Sounds as if improved depth perception might be in order?
ArPharazonV: perhaps, but that's never been my strong point :-)(
VardaValar1: Loss of the foolish from the gene pool...
VardaValar1: You're still alive at your age. Must have made a few correct decisions.
ArPharazonV: hey! just because my depth perception lacks doesn't make me foolish
VardaValar1: Quite right, but not fixing it might be?
ArPharazonV: well, that's a problem in today's society... no more natural selection as the weak are cared for by the strong ;-)
ArPharazonV: well, one could call it a problem, or an improvement
VardaValar1: Some people seem to be impossible to protect.
VardaValar1: But we do need to cut back on the population.
ArPharazonV: the very notion of healthcare would seem ridiculous from an evolutionary viewpoint
VardaValar1: I want to keep Stephen Hawking around. : )
ArPharazonV: with my heart, my eyesight, and my slight case of autism, I would not have lived this long in the animal kingdom, I can assure you
VardaValar1: You could if you live in a strong pack. Which you do.
VardaValar1: Wolves are aided in walking by others, when injured.
VardaValar1: We may have carried it a bit far. : )
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: I really need to leave, despite the very enjoyable company here.
ArPharazonV: aww
VardaValar1: Take care, person whom I hope continues to survive a long time.
VardaValar1: Namarie for now!
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: hehe, so do I :-)
ArPharazonV: ok, saving and sending