Valar Guild

January 7, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharzon-(V) and Varda-(Valar)

Attending (16):
    Members: Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, ArathornValar, ArPharazonV, Dior-(V)/MyCantalopeH8tsU, Elladan-(V)/Bior the Ythling, Eonwe Valar (presiding), FinduilasV, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet, Idril-(V)/Narthais, Farmer Maggot-(V)/thesirg3, Menelvagor Valar, Oropher-(V)/MJKeenan1234, VardaValar1
    Visitors: Hyarion/Srekal86 (guild-friend), oladys 123 (guild-friend), Russ82275 (unknown lurker)

Meeting begins
    Article: "Seven Structural Wonders of Middle-earth" by Barahir-(V)
    Request by two members for Battlenetters to get together for D2X, SC/BW. Remember to use East and channel Valar.
    Dungeon Siege
    Battle for Middle-earth 2: Rise of the Witch-King 
       Argent Dawn
    Dior-(V) (Varda mistakenly said Oropher in the meeting): Classes in History and in International Relations for Middle-earth.
    Got together for gaming.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: heya
ArathornValar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
FinduilasV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Finduilas
FinduilasV: Aiya Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Well, I guess we'll begin shortly.
FinduilasV: Just been with Valandile in Uldamar two man raid *gg*, so he might come later too
Eonwe Valar: ok
ArPharazonV: too bad you can't access the final boss with less than 3 people :-)
Menelvagor Valar: meh :P
Eonwe Valar: Well, if a Hunter could make his pet get over there.. :}
FinduilasV: hehe aye we thought we could have done with another one ;'-)
Menelvagor Valar: came back home just slightly too late then :-D
FinduilasV: aye i am afraid so , but apart from there , until the emok dor it went quite ok
Eonwe Valar: Anyone see any members on but not here?
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Time snuck up on me, sorry.
Eonwe Valar: NP :}
FinduilasV: Aiya there varda
VardaValar1: So hi to Arathorn, Phar, Eonwe, Finduilas, Menelvagor, and Gilraen!
Srekal86 has entered the room.
thesirg3 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heh, and Varda brings in two more with her :}
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya :-)
thesirg3: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya :}
Menelvagor Valar: and that was me Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: ah, ok :}
Menelvagor Valar: I just invited my entire online Valar Guild list at once :-D
VardaValar1: Hiya Hyarion and Farmer!
Eonwe Valar: ok, one sec then we'll begin.
FinduilasV has left the room.
FinduilasV has entered the room.
FinduilasV: oops aiyata ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's begin.
VardaValar1: Oropher is trying to enter
MJKeenan1234 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Oropher : )
Eonwe Valar: heya Oropher. Came in just in time :}

Eonwe Valar: Elen sila lumen omentielvo!
MJKeenan1234: hello sirs
MJKeenan1234: and ma'ams as well
Eonwe Valar: Welcome all to the first meeting of 2007 :} Happy new Year!
MJKeenan1234: yes happy new year everyone
FinduilasV: Bliadhna mhath ur dhuibh !
Eonwe Valar: Membership News:
ArPharazonV: happy new year! anything happen last week? I missed it ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Classes start back up for us university students soon.
Eonwe Valar: Only what was in the transcript, Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other membership news?
ArPharazonV: transcript... last time I checked it wasn't up yet
ArPharazonV: but I'll check
MyCantalopeH8tsU has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Dior : )
VardaValar1: I put it up, Phar. Give it a shot now

Eonwe Valar: On to Web News:
Eonwe Valar: I did a thorough update of the Lothar Players table to make sure everything was correct. Will be doing the Uldaman Players table shortly.
Eonwe Valar: After the meeting, obviously, not during it :}
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien Trivia on the Forum going, for LotR and Sil. Get over there and look :}
Eonwe Valar: Any more Web News?
VardaValar1: The article?
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead, Varda :}
VardaValar1: New article by Barahir-(V)! "The Seven Structural Wonders of Middle-earth"
VardaValar1: Barahir and I just put some finishing touches on it before the meeting. : )
VardaValar1: Also for the Links page
VardaValar1: we have one that lets you look at course lectures and other material for several big universities, including MIT
VardaValar1: They keep adding new universities
VardaValar1: This can be great for information or helping study
VardaValar1: That's all my web news. : )
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Varda :}

Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: Anyone did anything besides WoW they can talk about?
VardaValar1: Yes
Russ82275 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Dior is looking for more members to play D2X
Menelvagor Valar: uhm...
VardaValar1: Hail
Menelvagor Valar: does WoW the Boardgame count?
VardaValar1: Meneldil is looking for more for SC/BW
VardaValar1: If they won't let us count our D&D Eberron board game, then no. ;-)
ArPharazonV: bit of Dungeon Siege, bit of Battle for Middle-Earth 2: Rise of the Witchking... nothing I haven't talked about before
Eonwe Valar: Ok, on to WoW then :}
MyCantalopeH8tsU: well, Ive been playing a lot of d2x lately, and every time I stop by any of the channels, new or old, no one is ever on
MyCantalopeH8tsU: I was just wondering if anyone still plays on anymore
VardaValar1: Our channel is on Battlenet East, Valar
MyCantalopeH8tsU: I know
VardaValar1: We do a little, but its tough to get everyone together
VardaValar1: This is also for transcript readers.
VardaValar1: Do you remember the old game names and passwords? If not, be sure to email Varda.
MyCantalopeH8tsU: well Im probably gonna start a post on the forum asking people to leave there account names
VardaValar1: AIM works during meetings too. : )
Eonwe Valar: Member who play D2 or other bnet games could use the Forum to try and set a time to get together during the week.
Eonwe Valar: Good idea, Dior :}
Eonwe Valar: And aye, coming in for the meeting then breaking off for games at the end is a good way too :}
Sarujil has entered the room.
MJKeenan1234: If we are talking about WoW right now, I play on Frostmane mostly with some old EQ friends and RL friends of mine, horde side. So if you enjoy wow's pvp system or just want to hang out message me on Nikandros
Eonwe Valar: Our official servers are Lothar for Alliance and Uldaman for Horde.
Eonwe Valar: We'd like members to join us in our official servers so we have more in one place to quest with and such.
FinduilasV: Where is actually the site to download the Us version of the game?
Eonwe Valar: The US version only comes on CD or DVD, Finduilas.
VardaValar1: You can buy it from an online store or Blizzard
FinduilasV: ah i see , ok dok cheers
Eonwe Valar: We have a branch on Argent Dawn set up as well for members in Europe.
MJKeenan1234: if you want I can send you a friend trial membership
FinduilasV: me?
MJKeenan1234: I think if you do that you can download the full retail ver and your credit card will get charged
MJKeenan1234: yes if you want, I would need your email address and other information
FinduilasV: that would be kewl :D
Menelvagor Valar: meh.
FinduilasV: ok sidewindow
Menelvagor Valar: max level 20.
Menelvagor Valar: no fun that/
MJKeenan1234: well, it gives him a chance to try the game out and maybe download the full retail ver
Eonwe Valar: GL Finduilas :}
Eonwe Valar: Finduilas is a she :}
MJKeenan1234: she sorry
Eonwe Valar: Yes, we actually have women in the Valar Guild :}
MJKeenan1234: im so used to the internet being 3/4ths male
ArPharazonV: trial-members can't even trade with other people!
Star of Phaet: *gasp* you lie, Eo!
Eonwe Valar: So remember to always be gentlemen :}
VardaValar1: Valar is a place we ladies can feel ok to show our faces. : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Best to get a full CD
FinduilasV: let me have a look first , its a good way to check out the server
VardaValar1: Aye
MJKeenan1234: yes it is, but the trial membership I think allows you to download the full ver when the trial ends if you wish to continue playing
Eonwe Valar: I hope it works out that way. Would make it easier.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, while Oropher and Finduilas do that in the side window, let's continue with the meeting.
MJKeenan1234: thats my hope, if not she gets an over all feel of wow and can make a choice to continue playing or not
Menelvagor Valar: well, would still need an american address (or new zealand) to play on US server.
Eonwe Valar: All Elatan needed was an international credit card.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, on with the meeting.
VardaValar1: New Zealand works
Menelvagor Valar: and a New Zealand address Eonwe :-D
VardaValar1: Gilraen can also play from England
Eonwe Valar: Well, all I know is the credit card.
Eonwe Valar: Guild Questing: Lothar-
Menelvagor Valar: Gilraen has Gwai to buy the gamecards and activate them.
Eonwe Valar: This week, Eonwë, Fangorn, Varda, Merry, and Dracxil got together to kill Araj.
Menelvagor Valar: he was whimpanized a while back, luckily.
Eonwe Valar: and which patch would that have been?
Menelvagor Valar: no idea.
ArPharazonV: true, I 3-manned him easily a few days ago
ArPharazonV: yes, we all died from his adds, but we killed him!
Menelvagor Valar: I just remember the days when Araj was only doable in a raid (but not lootable due to quest)
Russ82275 has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Pharz, you shouldn't be one to talk with your Naxx gear :-D
ArPharazonV: well, I was the healer, so it wasn't my right spec!
ArPharazonV: and I don't have Naxx healing gear
Eonwe Valar: Ok, back to the report :}
Eonwe Valar: We fought Araj, taking him down and getting what was needed by those with the quests.
Eonwe Valar: After which, we decided to give Scholomance a go. Unfortunately, Dracxil left before we were on our way, and shortly in, Fangorn had to go.
thesirg3 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Not long after that, Merry started having connection issues.
VardaValar1: and my Tinwetari was too teensy
MJKeenan1234: what you can do, if you do not mind it is to duel above in the top room of the castle, having one character degear and if you can duel, duel to low health and jump off to your death and corpse rez inside the wall
Eonwe Valar: Eventually, Merry got back in, and we were joined by Eowyn and Sauron, after which we didn't do too terribly.
Eonwe Valar: Sounds like an exploit, Oropher, if I understand what you're mentioning.
MJKeenan1234: its not really, people do it all the time for diremaul, if they dont have the key, they just use the ogres
ArPharazonV: never did it
Eonwe Valar: rezzing inside the wall?
ArPharazonV: never planning to either.. it's an exploit, and most in our Europe guild frown upon that :-)
MJKeenan1234: you rez behind the door
MJKeenan1234: its a way to get behind annoying locked doors :D
Eonwe Valar: The Valar Guild frowns upon exploits as well.
ArPharazonV: if you have a locked door
ArPharazonV: go get the key!
Menelvagor Valar: go get a rogue!
ArPharazonV: nerf rogues
Menelvagor Valar: with 290 in lockpicking :-D
Eonwe Valar: Besides, just about everyone at this point who's been into Dire Maul with us should have the Crescent Key.
VardaValar1: As a group Friday, we picked up the Scholomance key for those who didn't have it.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that was part of our business with Araj.
Eonwe Valar: Back to the report,... we made it to Rattlegore, but two of his cronies got us, and the respawn was beginning, and since it was getting late, we called it there.
Menelvagor Valar: tsk...
Menelvagor Valar: Rattlegore...
Menelvagor Valar: he's a whimp compared to his cronies :-D
Eonwe Valar: But we got Plagued hatchlings completed and 2/4 deeds.
Menelvagor Valar: thanks for reminding me. I still have to deliver them deeds some day :P
Eonwe Valar: That concludes the Lothar Report. Finduilas, you were telling us about a grouping with you and Valandil before the meeting? Or any other Valar Guild questing in Argent Dawn?
FinduilasV: There were actually a few group activities this week on Argent Dawn
FinduilasV: three to be exact
FinduilasV: Gondoline and Calaron were generous enough to lead finduilasse into the dephths of the Sunken Temple where he had several things to do , including defeating the god hakkar and forging the mightstone
FinduilasV: and there was another one .. which i forgot the name of .
FinduilasV: but as you know these two they and two other buddies faced each and every boss in there
FinduilasV: even though finduilasse showed his usual affinities for walls and holes to fall of ..
Menelvagor Valar: Jammal'An the Prophet.
FinduilasV: ah yes, thanks , menel
ArPharazonV: eh, at least you didn't fall down the big hole in the middle of the dragonkin room, or you would have ended up dead at the bottom level again :-)
FinduilasV: *ggg* ,true
FinduilasV: thanks to an accompanying priest Finduilasse could be resurrected twice and complete his tasks
FinduilasV: whereafter we battled down Eranikus of which i have two screenshots
FinduilasV: On return Finduilasse later that day went down Maraudon the blue side which was stressful but quite successful
FinduilasV: and it got very very early '-)
FinduilasV: Guildwise he met Friday up with Valandile to return to the ruins of Eldarath for the rune rubbings
FinduilasV: before which he went in search of the Helipad to summon Fizz Fuselighter ...
FinduilasV: He found it and the heroic swimmer surrounded Azshara's coastline to climb ashore in Durotar near Orgrimmar
FinduilasV: a visit of which .. from afar , self understood, not too far , just not to annoy the guards, he paid a visit ''-)
FinduilasV: Then chasing back he galloped cross country rthrough the barrens and Ashenvale to complete his task successfully.
FinduilasV: Earlier on today , Valandile and Finduilasse went down Uldaman for old tasks to finish and some cash
FinduilasV: but we will return with a third man
FinduilasV: This concludes my report.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Finduilas, and congrats for all that :}
FinduilasV: :-)
ArPharazonV: what level are you now?
Menelvagor Valar: don't forget to mention that you will be raiding soon :-)
FinduilasV: 52 and a good third
FinduilasV: ;-)
ArPharazonV: could be tricky if you still want to get to lvl 60 before the expansion :-)
Menelvagor Valar: near impossible is more like it.
FinduilasV: yes , Findu befcame a member of Legion of the Phoenix
Menelvagor Valar: Legacy, not Legion :P
ArPharazonV: there's always hope, Menel!
FinduilasV: well , have to see .. , *gg* maybe i have to think over my timing
Eonwe Valar: So, what about the Guild Branch there?
FinduilasV: but i will try nonthe less
Menelvagor Valar: she should start clearing quests in the WPL and EPL then.
Menelvagor Valar: Oh, it's up and running.
Menelvagor Valar: but as most of us are on different characters than are in the guild, we generally use the Valar channel
Menelvagor Valar: (although I have been playing my warrior Menelvagor a lot lately)
VardaValar1: A very useful thing, the private channel, which needs to be in all multiplayer games.
Eonwe Valar: I'm just concerned that with both our leading people over there in different guilds, at what point will they have time for the Valar Guild?
MJKeenan1234: there is a leveling guide for horde at least that can get you to 60 with 4 days played, id imagine if you really maximize your exp gain it would not be impossible to hit 60 pre expansion
FinduilasV: the only actual Valarguild members
Menelvagor Valar: That's 96 hours in total :P
FinduilasV: played regularly are often Finduilasse and Feanors eh?
FinduilasV: he is not on that fone often but we are meeting up with our other characters and work together sometimes
Menelvagor Valar: it will increase if we get more numbers.
FinduilasV: not to mention Orophin but Valandil has had professional stress lately , so he had not that much time to play
FinduilasV: and we team up quite often
Eonwe Valar: So you are recruiting regularly for people with an interest in Tolkien's works?
Menelvagor Valar: There are many in my raid group who have a liking for Tolkien and whenever I find them, I send them to the website.
VardaValar1: Scouting is something the whole guild slacked off on and its showing.
VardaValar1: Thanks Menel. Get any feedback?
Menelvagor Valar: They are generally astounded :-)
VardaValar1: They can be Tolkien-onlies if they like
FinduilasV: I am also scouting on other servers , Varda, i give them the website adress and refer to your email addy
FinduilasV: and tell them about the meeting
ArPharazonV: I tried to scout today, joined a premade Arathi Basin with among others someone called Niniel
Menelvagor Valar: AIM is not well used in Europe however.
ArPharazonV: but she turned out to already be in a guild like ours, though she didn't tell me which guild
ArPharazonV: story of my life...
ArPharazonV: I find someone, and they're already taken!
VardaValar1: Tolkien-onlies are outside gaming guilds, and sometimes join the gamers later
VardaValar1: Anyway, shall we move on to Tolkien? : )
FinduilasV: /me pats Phara gently on his shoulders

Eonwe Valar: I think it's about Tolkien time, aye. Whisper me topics.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, we've got a couple. Let's go with Varda's first.
VardaValar1: Oropher came up with an interesting comment
VardaValar1: He has classes in History and in International Relations.
VardaValar1: If we were to do one for Middle-earth, what could we come up with?
VardaValar1: Say if you were an Elf or Gondorian, or even a Dwarf or Hobbit?
VardaValar1: They could be very different perspectives.
VardaValar1: Comparing an elf's and a dwarf's comments on the same spot in history could tell a lot about international relations.
VardaValar1: Can you think of a spot in Middle-earth history where the two students, elf and dwarf, might have a different viewpoint?
MyCantalopeH8tsU: or at least, if that could some how be related to how the child was raised it wouldnt be a bad example, but that would require some sources on the childhood of elf and drawf children
Menelvagor Valar: Thorin's capture and detainment in Menegroth.
MyCantalopeH8tsU: sorry, I know Im behind, I was commenting on your eariler suggestion varda
VardaValar1: I don't understand the question very well. Dior, you mean we need to know what stories the children would have heard?
VardaValar1: Menel, you mean in Mirkwood's Halls?
Menelvagor Valar: yes,
Menelvagor Valar: that was called Menegroth, right? or am I mixing things up again?
Eonwe Valar: History of Middle-Earth (volume 10 I believe) has some information on Elf childhood compared to Man.
MJKeenan1234: obviously when the dwarves took the Silmarilli from Thingol, and his murder. They would clearly each justify the side they were on I am sure
MyCantalopeH8tsU: its more you would examples of how parents raised there children, were the elves more freethinking than drawfs during childhood
Eonwe Valar: Menegroth was Thingol's halls :}
MyCantalopeH8tsU: or do both societies pound their version of the truth
Menelvagor Valar: meh. I am tired :-D
MyCantalopeH8tsU: hmm well done eonwe
VardaValar1: no worries, Menel, we get the meaning. Good one.
VardaValar1: Normally, children in any group at least when young would hear a simplified version that makes their own sound not sound too bad.
VardaValar1: The dingier details would show up during higher education.
MJKeenan1234: even in higher education you are getting a watered down version
VardaValar1: So we need to know if this is the child's grade school paper or college paper.
ArPharazonV: don't want to scare the kids away from your own civilization before they got attached to it, eh...
VardaValar1: True. You have to specialize for real details.
MJKeenan1234: even in todays world of global communication we still do not hear the full details of many events
Eonwe Valar: I think Elf children would for the most part get alot of first-hand or close-to-firsthand accounts.
MyCantalopeH8tsU: thats true
MJKeenan1234: but the people giving the first hand accounts will have their own elven bias
VardaValar1: Elf children have the elders who lived through the events, due to longevity, so that makes a difference.
VardaValar1: We all hear "war-stories" from our elders.
Menelvagor Valar: and that would depend on their own disposition towards other races.
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves have a great attention to detail, so I think the facts will be fairly straight if not the opinions based on those facts.
MyCantalopeH8tsU: but they are also extremely proud
VardaValar1: Hearing Thranduil's version of the Last Alliance would be different from Elrond's or what they say in Gondor.
VardaValar1: Does the pride come partly form being insular? Or from seeing that their own lives are good?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Thranduil's army at the Last Alliance didn't fare quite so well as Elrond's, comparatively.
MJKeenan1234: I would imagine dwarves would be ultra nationalistic. Same with elves, even if they like humans, or halflings, there will still be some bias, and just consider as well, the angle of the viewer, the dwarves for instance are shorter
MJKeenan1234: more blunt
MJKeenan1234: as well
MJKeenan1234: they may not notice all the subtility an elf might
MJKeenan1234: in actions
VardaValar1: Dwarf mothers would not normally leave their mountains and have a very one-sided view to pass to their children.
MyCantalopeH8tsU: see thats the question, are drawf boys primarily raised by the father
MyCantalopeH8tsU: masons, warriors and all that
VardaValar1: We know that Arwen and Celebrian traveled between Rivendell and Lothlorien, with a company. So elves may have been less one-sided.
Eonwe Valar: Well, all Dwarves revered Durin I, and while they may pursue their own interests as kindgoms, they do keep in contact and come to eachothers' aid (i.e. War of the Dwarves and Orcs).
VardaValar1: Once the dwarf-boys are old enough to be apprenticed, they may be with their fathers a great deal more than before.
VardaValar1: but would come home to mom.
MyCantalopeH8tsU: but royal correspondance is different from frequent travel
Eonwe Valar: Book 10 of HoME also has a comparative wealth of info on Dwarves, btw.
VardaValar1: True about the royals, yet they took a fair-sized company of their people with them, so maids and other non-royals would see more than just inside Rivendell.
VardaValar1: Sounds like you need a copy of Vol. 10 of HoME!
Eonwe Valar: Scratch that, Book 12 has the Dwarf info.
VardaValar1: or 13
VardaValar1: or 12, missed the key, sorry
VardaValar1: 13 will be Hurin's
VardaValar1: so probably not so much on Dwarves?
Eonwe Valar: Well, we might learn more on the Petty-Dwarves in book 13...
FinduilasV: Well , one thing is for sure , there was strife and misunderstandings galore between dwarves and elves
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Finduilas.
FinduilasV: and that was laid in their origins
FinduilasV: Remember the story of that?
VardaValar1: A comparison of papers between a dwarf and elf student could be fun. : )
Eonwe Valar: The Noldor got along better with Dwarves than any other group of Elves.
MJKeenan1234: but also look at it this way, I am sure the sons of Feanor, and their follower's versions of history greatly differ from that of say... the Sindar. So I would say that in all aspects of history, the reports from the dwarves
MJKeenan1234: and the viewpoints of the elves are greatly differ, in all things.
MJKeenan1234: while they may all view morgoth as the common enemy, what they deem report worthy, and noteable will be different
Eonwe Valar: It seems it was mostly those kingdoms in the Third Age with Sindarin Elves that held a general animosity to Dwarves.
VardaValar1: The little thing about Dwarves killing the King of Doriath, a Sinda? : )
Eonwe Valar: I don't know why they'd get mad over that... :}
FinduilasV: I dont remember that particular story ,.. Varda
VardaValar1: Little problem with that necklace with the Silmaril on it.
FinduilasV: oh that .. sure
Eonwe Valar: Galadriel, a Noldo, seemed to have no resentment towards Gimli.
VardaValar1: She could see into his mind.
VardaValar1: Galadriel wasn't pure Noldo, but we don't have to go into that. ; )
Menelvagor Valar: the Nauglamir Varda/
Eonwe Valar: Legolas, son of Thranduil, those were always at it :}
VardaValar1: Aye Menel
Eonwe Valar: *Legolas and Gimli.
Eonwe Valar: Always competing.
MJKeenan1234: Just remember, what makes it to report in say Brazil, and Qatar are different. What each nation views as important for example, and we are all human, with the same world view.
FinduilasV: Oh legolas had his difficulties with Gimli
FinduilasV: but he got over them
MJKeenan1234: well same rational
MJKeenan1234: I should say
MJKeenan1234: we share the same general human capacity for reason, our mind works along the same logic
VardaValar1: Right, Dior. So it could be even wilder in difference between an elf and dwarf.
VardaValar1: sorry, Oropher : )
Eonwe Valar: I'm not so sure about that. There were certain things all the Free Peoples held as universal truths.
MJKeenan1234: There are things in this world that we are taught are universal truths
VardaValar1: Books said right is not one thing among one people and another elsewhere.
MJKeenan1234: but sometimes the universal truths can be shattered
MJKeenan1234: and there is a difference between moral absolutes and historical perspective
VardaValar1: Some things held up as universal truths are really too nit-picky.
Eonwe Valar: Let's keep it to Tolkien's works for now, Oropher.
MJKeenan1234: they may all KNOW that murdering the king of the Sindar is wrong, but there are extenuating circumstances involved
MJKeenan1234: again I was using our world to show how things may be in another
VardaValar1: Part of the fun of Middle-earth is that its the time before ours, where we are supposed to see where some of our current attitudes came from.
Eonwe Valar: One truth all Free People appear to acknowledge is that free will should not be taken from another..
VardaValar1: Well said, Eonwe
MJKeenan1234: im not debating the existance of universal truths
VardaValar1: Morgoth wanted all to do only his will.
Eonwe Valar: Boromir knew it was a mistake to force Frodo to give him the Ring.
VardaValar1: The trick is to find the real universal truths, something we might find help with in the study of Middle-earth.
MJKeenan1234: what I am saying is, that when viewing Morgoth as the enemy, the dwarves may view the main reason he is evil as different from an Elf.
Eonwe Valar: Gildor did not want to give too much Council to Frodo, for fear of swaying Frodo's own decision.
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MJKeenan1234: I mean, did the Dwarves feel that the loss of free will was the reason to fight, or was it that he was going to destroy old dwarven customs, and defile the tombs of their ancestors and corrupt all that they had created
Eonwe Valar: The same could be said of the Elves.
MJKeenan1234: exactly
MJKeenan1234: they do hold different views on why
Eonwe Valar: Fëanor inspired them to march because of some stuff Morgoth stole.
MJKeenan1234: its not in question that they view morgoth as the enemy
VardaValar1: Combinations of reasons seem needed for most action?
MJKeenan1234: yes but the foremost reason
MJKeenan1234: the item that above all motivates them
Eonwe Valar: I'm saying, you could replace "Dwarves" in your statement with "Elves" and it would hold the same meaning.
VardaValar1: Morgoth would take away their freedom to hold to their ways, their beloved places.
Eonwe Valar: Did Wormtongue think about losing his own will when he started serving Saruman? Probably not.
MJKeenan1234: then it is in the definition of freedom. They may all hold that freedom is universally sacred, but when it comes time to define freedom the elven version of what freedom is will likely not be the same as the dwarven
VardaValar1: Grima expected to be allowed to take the woman of his choosing, increasing his free will. Didn't work.
FinduilasV: is there not always a tendency that people do choose to serve somebody?
FinduilasV: obviously their reasons are different, but they
VardaValar1: If someone sees a person leading the way they want to go, they may join them in the walk.
FinduilasV: could not foresee that they would end up losing their own will
VardaValar1: Some serve an ideal or a group, rather than a person. I'd say most, even.
Eonwe Valar: That's the treachery of evil. Morgoth/Sauron/Saruman isn't going to come out and tell them that following him means they must always do what he says or he'll dispose of them, and may dispose of them anyway just because he gets..
Eonwe Valar: the whim.
VardaValar1: Oropher, what difference would the elves and dwarves see in what freedom would be? Would it be in details, as they would both want their homes and ways left alone?
MJKeenan1234: I would imagine it would be in the details. If the dwarves and elves each had the same view on what freedom was exactly, they would never conflict as their interests would be the same
VardaValar1: The conflict might not be on the idea of freedom, but feeling the other is encroaching on theirs?
VardaValar1: Thingol being too bossy, takes away dwarven freedom. Killing Thingol, not good for elven freedom.
MJKeenan1234: but again, if each had the same view of what freedom was, then they would not think Thingol was too bossy
Eonwe Valar: Thingol was killed because the Dwarves wanted the Nauglamir, after they had already been paid.
Eonwe Valar: Of course, Thingol didn't quite help by talking down to them.
MJKeenan1234: because the Dwarves thought that the item was theirs by rights due to creating it in all its splendor
MJKeenan1234: where as the elves thought it was theirs by right due to paying for it and owning the gem it was made from
MJKeenan1234: they had a conflict of rights, rights are a part of freedom
Eonwe Valar: No, they wanted it because they lusted after the Silmaril.
Eonwe Valar: They tried to cover their lust by claims of right.
VardaValar1: Silmarils do that to people.
oladys 123 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Lady : )
oladys 123: heyi
oladys 123: heya
MJKeenan1234: and the elves had as much of a lust for the gem, and they claimed the gem was theirs by right of creation from Feanor and then Beren's claiming it from Morgoth's crown
Eonwe Valar: They worked to infringe on Thingol's freedom, and Thingol freely spoke in a rage while unguarded :}
MJKeenan1234: each felt their freedom and rights were being violated by the other
VardaValar1: Rage can cross into making others fear for their freedoms?
Eonwe Valar: Well, Beren had retrieved it in order to get permission to marry Luthien.
MJKeenan1234: if each held the same view of what freedom was exactly, then the conflict would not have happened
Eonwe Valar: Thingol was trying to be rid of Beren.
MJKeenan1234: as both would see who had the absolute rightful claim to the item
Eonwe Valar: Or, they could have been going against what they knew what right?
MJKeenan1234: unless of course one side is evil
Eonwe Valar: *was right
Eonwe Valar: Again, I point to Boromir as an example. He knew what he was doing was wrong, but it took a trip to the ground to make him come to his senses.
ArPharazonV: I don't think the distinction between good and evil can be so sharp
VardaValar1: Sometimes one's better judgement becomes clouded for a short time. Greed. Rage, even if righteous anger.
ArPharazonV: especially among elves and dwarves
MJKeenan1234: he knew what he did was wrong. Did the Dwarves ever admit to wrong doing in the murder of Thingol?
MJKeenan1234: Honestly I dont remember them doing that but it has been a while since I read the Silm
Eonwe Valar: The ones who murdered Thingol are dead.
ArPharazonV: while the Dwarves could be seen as evil, I'm sure they did in some way what they thought was the right thing
MJKeenan1234: I am sure had they lived they would feel justified in doing it
ArPharazonV: for their people, at least
Eonwe Valar: So the Dwarves who killed Thingol have paid for their crime.
Eonwe Valar: Yeah, just as Gollum talked to himself endlessly trying to convince himself he was ok for killing Deagol.
VardaValar1: The story brought back to the dwarves was twisted so they got a different version of history, more sanitized for their side.
MJKeenan1234: which brings us back to the main point
MJKeenan1234: the view of history from elves and dwarves are different
Menelvagor Valar: I am off to bed. Lots of things to do tomorrow (get a job!) and I am dead tired (more dead than tired).
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie everyone!
MJKeenan1234: farewell
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: good night!
VardaValar1: Aye, Oropher.
FinduilasV: oh me too '-) , i have to admit that it was wed night that killed me more or less '-) but it was worth it
VardaValar1: : )
VardaValar1: Good night to our worn out Euros!
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
oladys 123: No stamina
oladys 123: G'Night
FinduilasV: :-) Namarie:-)
FinduilasV: might lurk a while yet hehe
FinduilasV: :P
FinduilasV: as i walk along these shores I am the history within ...
VardaValar1: Daeron. : )
VardaValar1: Maglor. : )
VardaValar1: Fun relating M-e to other things.
MJKeenan1234: Still, I think that the view point of elves and dwarves are not as different as may seem on the surface. A dwarf who was raised in the woods might have a very similar world view to that of an elf in the same enviornment.
FinduilasV: I guess everybody that walks the earth or Middlearth has his own viewpoint of history as the people who live at a time make it
FinduilasV: Calum Mac Donald in facrt ;''_)
FinduilasV: but it fits
VardaValar1: Most dwarves are raised in caverns and halls of stone, so maybe a Sinda growing up with a cavern as a keep can relate somewhat?
MJKeenan1234: as the Noldor and Dwarves who lived in roughly the same enviornment shared a somewhat similar world view
FinduilasV: as everybody has his own individual ideas and point of views
VardaValar1: Aye, Noldor and Dwarves sharing a love of crafting got along better.
MJKeenan1234: but there is still always going to be an elven perspective and a dwarven perspective
FinduilasV: Agreed Oropher
VardaValar1: Aye, makes them more interesting. : )
MJKeenan1234: they just may not be as different at the roots as one would think from a quick view
VardaValar1: Elves are Children of Eru. Dwarves are Adopted Children of Eru.
VardaValar1: Elves and Humans are both Children of Eru. Suppose that makes them closer?
Eonwe Valar: Eru granted all of them life.
MJKeenan1234: I was attempting to speak on the mind set of each. That the differences between most elves and dwarves are nurture rather then nature
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe.
VardaValar1: But perhaps some nature as well?
MJKeenan1234: yes
MJKeenan1234: there is some natural differences that effects views, but most of the differences between Legolas' world view and that of Gimli was the enviornment
VardaValar1: Just being physically different as in tall and beautiful or short and exceptionally strong can change a viewpoint.
Eonwe Valar: There would have to be minor differences in disposition to fit the purpose for which each was created. Dwarves were created to be hard if not impossible to dominate.
VardaValar1: Aye. The Rings could not take them over, although it increased a tendency towards greed.
Eonwe Valar: Elves were created to live within the confines of Arda until the Great End. Men were created to spend only a short span of years, and they run into trouble every time they try to overstay their welcome.
MJKeenan1234: I agree, with that, but I think most of the differences in world view that leads to conflict is more where they live and how they are forced to live(via enviornment[IE a dwarf living under ground, to have the best life possible...
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves liked living underground :}
MJKeenan1234: will act and view the world differently then a person who lives openly in the trees])
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves awoke underground :}
MJKeenan1234: I dont deny that but it would have an effect on their view of the world
MJKeenan1234: more so then I think the nature of their species would give them
VardaValar1: Aye. And they like where they live. That makes each think their way is best. : ) To quote Fangorn.
Eonwe Valar: The only reason they did anything besides work on their crafts is because, like all living creatures, they had certain needs, like food.
MJKeenan1234: I think that Fangorn just helped to make my earlier point on freedom and how they define it. If dwarves became the unviersal leaders of the world, then everyone would live under the mountian, and they would think they are helping
MJKeenan1234: the elves men and hobbits
Eonwe Valar: So even if their experiences of life were different, Eru would've ensured that some basic knowledge of was what good and what was bad was ingrained into the being of his creations.
Eonwe Valar: When Men awoke, and Morgoth started to enslave them, a group knew that it was bad, and they left.
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, I doubt Dwarves would do that, Oropher.
MJKeenan1234: if they had the chance who knows!
Eonwe Valar: Why would they?
Eonwe Valar: If no one lives on the surface, then there would be no one to farm or raise cattle.
MJKeenan1234: because they find a life under ground to be best, and whats good for the goose is good for the gander
Eonwe Valar: Then the Dwarves couldn't do what they like to do.
MJKeenan1234: I was taking it to an extreme
MJKeenan1234: to make the point
MJKeenan1234: it may never get THAT far
Eonwe Valar: I've seen no evidence of Dwarves that they'd do more than make everyone come down and see the beauty of shiny caves.
ArPharazonV: but, if Dwarves thought about freedom as other peoples id
ArPharazonV: *did
Eonwe Valar: Sauron, on the other hand,...
ArPharazonV: would they not see that it was a good thing for everyone to decide for themselves what lifestyle was best?
MJKeenan1234: but that is not how the mind works
ArPharazonV: instead of deciding it for them and forcing them into it, even though they thought they were helping?
VardaValar1: Gimli seemed to be able to see easily enough that he loved the Glittering Caves and Legolas loved the forest.
ArPharazonV: for a mind that embraces freedom, it should
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves are fairly isolationist. They may not like all those people living underground with them.
MJKeenan1234: there are other things that influence
VardaValar1: It's *my* mountain!
MJKeenan1234: There are people who love freedom but want to limit the choices of others to coincide with what they view as freedom
ArPharazonV: then they have a wrong view of freedom
Eonwe Valar: Those people are not counted among the Wise in LotR :}
VardaValar1: How could anyone really want to live in a flet in a tree out in the weather instead of in a comfortable cave?
MJKeenan1234: it may not be as blunt as forcing other people into the cave
MJKeenan1234: but because they view the cave as the best place to live
ArPharazonV: "Hey, you want to live with us in the cave?" "No, thanks, I like it here." "Allright then, your choice!"
ArPharazonV: that's the way it should go
MJKeenan1234: what should happen and what do happen are different
ArPharazonV: if the Dwarves really knew what freedom was
MJKeenan1234: I think it would be more subtle then that
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Eonwe Valar: Any time anyone besides Dwarves lived in a cave, it was because those people went looking for a cave to live in.
FinduilasV: hmm caves did not really work out for elves in the end , didnt they?
Eonwe Valar: The Dwarves didn't say "Hey, Thingol, it's time you moved into a cave!"
MJKeenan1234: but they would feel themselves better then the elves for finding the right way to live
MJKeenan1234: on a subconsicous level
Eonwe Valar: I don't see why.
ArPharazonV: why not, Finduilas?
MJKeenan1234: because they know they that they know what htey love
ArPharazonV: the only times the cave-dwelling Elves were defeated, was in battle outside the caves
MJKeenan1234: but they dont know if the elves really know they love the forest
MJKeenan1234: thus dwarves are superior to elves
MJKeenan1234: in their own minds of course
Eonwe Valar: In some things, Dwarves are superior to Elves.
ArPharazonV: the battle for Nargothrond was fought in the plain to the north, Thingol was killed while in the forest
Eonwe Valar: In others, Elves are superior to Dwarves.
Eonwe Valar: In still others, Men trump both.
MJKeenan1234: the Noldor know that the Noldor know they love living in caves, sometimes beside dwarves crafting things, they cannot ever be sure the other races and subraces love what they say they love
FinduilasV: Hmm Phara ...they did end up with several defeats in Nargothrond , had to leave Menegroth .. , dunno
MJKeenan1234: but they will always think their way is best because they know THEY love it
Eonwe Valar: Well, Elves only lived in caves out of necessity.
MJKeenan1234: the Noldor made teh choice of their own free will
Eonwe Valar: Thingol saw it as a necessity that he have a more fortified position, as did Finrod.
ArPharazonV: only after their main forces were killed in the battle outside, Finduilas
Eonwe Valar: It was a tactical decision, not one made for comfort.
Eonwe Valar: Rivendell was not a military installation, so Elrond didn't make his home in a cave.
Eonwe Valar: Elves generally did prefer the forests, and being out under the stars.
VardaValar1: The cave Thranduil's people used was as protection also, while they lived in flets and small buildings outside it mostly.
FinduilasV: ok ok :-)
Eonwe Valar: I guarantee you that no Elf in Aman lives in a cave :}
ArPharazonV: hmm... *thinks back*
FinduilasV: the caves were very protective but honestly it is not their natural evironment
ArPharazonV: Formenos wasn't a cave, was it?
Eonwe Valar: Formenos was a fortress, as I recall.
Eonwe Valar: stand-alone.
ArPharazonV: allright
MJKeenan1234: again, didnt the Noldor on Valinor make their halls under the ground?
MJKeenan1234: thats how I always read it at least
Eonwe Valar: no
VardaValar1: The Noldor had a town up on a hill.
Eonwe Valar: Tirion was a Noldo-built city, and it was on a hill.
VardaValar1: Aye, Tirion. Vanyar lived there with them a while before moving to Taniquetil's area.
FinduilasV: oki dok they did , Alqualonde was the Teleri town
FinduilasV: but Tirion was the most renowned .. with all the lights and jewels on the streets
VardaValar1: Aye, Alqualonde was Telerin.
FinduilasV: and on the hill sides around it , if i remember rightly
FinduilasV: and a lot of luxurious houses .. with comfy beds ..
FinduilasV: to which i am gonna retire myself now finally hehe have fun ::-)-
FinduilasV: Namarie formally
FinduilasV has left the room.
VardaValar1: good night!
Eonwe Valar: Here's some fun info on Dwarves to show their general attitude towards outsiders:
Eonwe Valar: (all from Book 12 of HoME)
Eonwe Valar: "...-in most matters they were unadaptable-..."
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Bior the Ythling: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: "..they quickly, however, recognized the usefullness of the Elvish (writing) systems..."
VardaValar1: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: "...for while the Dwarves lived in populous mansions of their own, such as Moria in particular, and went on journeys only to visit their own kin,
Eonwe Valar: they had little intercourse with other peoples except immediate neighbors..."
Eonwe Valar: "they had been obliged in the course of trade and otherdealing with Men and Elves to learn to read the Common Speech as written,
Eonwe Valar: and many found it convenient to learn to write it according to the general customs of the West.."
MJKeenan1234: See I think that is an interesting thing. While xenophobic, if you manage to become the friend of a dwarf they are very loyal. Where as elves are friendly to an outsider a bit more quickly, but it takes longer to get the loyal bond
MJKeenan1234: with a person.
Eonwe Valar: As you can see by these, the Dwarves as we have already mentioned were generally isolationist. They were content to go about letting others do their thing while the Dwarves went about their own business.
MJKeenan1234: at least thats how I see it
Eonwe Valar: They only engaged in trade to get stuff they needed, and only learned the speech of others in order to trade with them.
MJKeenan1234: Where I get this from is, when the Noldor assault Morgoth's keep, the dwarves went so far as to sacrifice themselves to allow the elves to flee, when the dragon attacks I believe
Eonwe Valar: Actually, that battle was over for the Dwarves as soon as Azaghal died.
MJKeenan1234: showing how devoted and loyal they were to their friends. Where as the Elves quickly became friends with the dwarves but rarely showed the same level of commitment
Eonwe Valar: Hurin and his people were the ones who gave Turgon time to flee the battlefield.
MJKeenan1234: the dwarves still sacrificed greatly for them
Eonwe Valar: I think it's more interesting about the Dwarves in that battle that not even the enemy hindered their departure.
Eonwe Valar: Shows orcs aren't so stupid after all :}
MJKeenan1234: the way it seemed, their armor and battle prowess was something to be greatly feared
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Eonwe Valar: Dwarves are a force to be feared.
MJKeenan1234: as I recall, and I could be wrong, had the dwarves not killed that dragon the battle for the elves would have been over as well, if im not mistaken
Eonwe Valar: That dragon was Glaurung, and he lived, but he was wounded enough to flee the field.
Eonwe Valar: He wasn't yet come to his full might.
MJKeenan1234: sorry its been a lonnnnnnnng while since I read silm
MJKeenan1234: so details are rather sketchy
Eonwe Valar: np
MJKeenan1234: but the point is, when, if ever, have the elves, who were friendly from the start, to the dwarves ever ready to make a similar sacrifice for the dwarves alone
VardaValar1: Azaghal, the dwarves' leader, although killed by Glaurung, injured him enough to send him from the field.
VardaValar1: The dwarves weren't doing it for the elves though.
MJKeenan1234: I thought they were
MJKeenan1234: I need to find my copy of silm, sadly I only have lord of the rings atm here
VardaValar1: ok, maybe so. "Maedhros had the help of the Naugrim"
VardaValar1: I looked it up.
Eonwe Valar: "Last of all the eastern force to stand firm were the Dwarves of Belegost, and thus they won renown.
Eonwe Valar: For the Dwarves withstood fire more heardily than either Elves or Men, and it was their custom moreover to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon; and those stood them in good stead against the dragons.
Eonwe Valar: and but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his might y Armor was not full proof against the blows of
Eonwe Valar: their great axes; and when in his rage Glarugun turned and struck down Azaghal, Lord of Belegost, and crawled over him..
Eonwe Valar: with his last stroke Azaghal drove a knife into his belly, and so wounded him that he fled the feild, and the beast of Angband in dismay followed after him.
Eonwe Valar: Then the Dwarves raised up the body of Azaghal and bore it away; and with slow steps they walked behind singing a dirge in deep voices, as it were a funeral pomp in their country,
Eonwe Valar: and gave heed no more to their foes; and none dare to stay them."
Eonwe Valar: Belegost is in what would be the Ered Luin of the Second/Third Ages.
Eonwe Valar: Aulë really spread out the Dwarves:Firebeards and Broadbeams were in the Ered Luin, Longbeards (Duin's folk) at Mount Gundabad. Those are the ones were know of. The others awoke..
Eonwe Valar: "at distances as great or greater than that between the Blue Mountains and Gundabad."
Eonwe Valar: Seems only the Longbeards awoke without another Dwarf group nearby.
Eonwe Valar: Assemblies of delegates often met at Mount Gundabad, that is, until the Orcs took it during the Third Age, which is why the Dwarves hate the orcs so much.
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Eonwe Valar: "In times of great need even the most distant would send help to any of their people.."
Eonwe Valar: "Though they were loth to migrate far from their original homes, except under great pressure from enemies or after some catastrophe such as the ruin of Beleriand,..
Eonwe Valar: they were great and hardy travellers and skilled road-makers..."
Eonwe Valar: "The longbeards, though the proudest of the seven kindreds, were also the wisest and the most farseeing."
Eonwe Valar: "..Thus there grew up in those regions the economy, later characteristic of the dealings of Dwarves and Men(including Hobbits):
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Narthais: hello
VardaValar1: Aiya Idril : )
Eonwe Valar: Men became the chief providers of food, as herdsmen, shepherds, and land-tillers, which the Dwarves exchanged for work as builders, roadmakers, miners, and the makers of things of craft, from useful tools to weapons and arms...
Eonwe Valar: and many other things of great cost and skill.
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Eonwe Valar: To the great profit of the Dwarves. Not only to be reckoned in hours of labour, though in early times the Dwarves must have obtained goods that were the product of greater and longer toil than the things or services that they gave
Eonwe Valar: in exchange - before Men became wiser and developed skills of their own.
Eonwe Valar: The chief advantage to them was their freedom to proceed unhindered with their own work and to refine their arts, especially of metallurgy,
Eonwe Valar: to the marvelous skill which these reached before the decline and dwindling of the Khazad."
ArPharazonV: I hate to interrupt you, but I should be going
ArPharazonV: I'll save and send up to here
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar
Eonwe Valar: "... it was long before the Longbeards felt any need to learn the language of their neighbors,... This process began not in barter and trade, but in war"
ArPharazonV: saved
Eonwe Valar: I think I'll stop there anyway :}
VardaValar1: Thanks, Eonwe. That was a huge amount of work, quoting all that.
VardaValar1: Very interesting. I musssst have that book!
Eonwe Valar: Good that thats the kind of work I do for fun :}
VardaValar1: hehe

VardaValar1: I'm going to bug out to the game which cannot be named for a bit, if its up. : )
ArPharazonV: sent
Eonwe Valar: I think I may go champion some cause as well :}
VardaValar1: Thank you
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Ok, see you around.
ArPharazonV: goodnight all!
ArPharazonV: Namarie
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}
VardaValar1: Namarie!
ArPharazonV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Namarie all!
Eonwe Valar: I
Eonwe Valar: 'll be logging out to prevent lag in game. Take care all, have fun, good night, and sleep well :}
VardaValar1: Good idea!
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