Valar Guild

January 14, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharzon-(V) and Varda-(Valar)

Attending (12):
    Members: Aerandir-(V)/mordacil, Arathorn Valar, ArPharazonV, AuSteinM-(TV)/AuSteinM, Eonwe Valar, FinduilasV, Finrod-(V)/TH0R0NGIL, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet, Olwe-(V)/FallenGlory, Orodreth V/Oessala, VardaValar1 (presiding)
    Visitor: Hyarion/Srekal86

Meeting begins
    Sweep of disinterested members still going.
    Orodreth-(V) will be working during most meetings (after-meeting)
    Recognition of member accomplishments (after-meeting)
    rp 1
    BfMe2: War of the Ring
    Populous: The Beginning
    Discworld II
    Eve Online (after-meeting)
       NeverWinter Nights
       WC3: The Frozen Throne
       WoW Lothar server
       WoW: Burning Crusade Expansion
       WoW Argent Dawn server
       WoW screenshots
    Do we have any instances in Tolkien's stories of possession?

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Taking care of family, brb
VardaValar1: May be a few minutes, my apologies.
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
ArathornValar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya all :-)
Star of Phaet: Aiya folks
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Eonwe Valar: Light gathering today.
VardaValar1: sorry, partly afk, will invite more shortly
VardaValar1: badk
VardaValar1: back : )
Eonwe Valar: wb :}
Srekal86 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Heya Hiyarion : )
mordacil has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Aerandir
TH0R0NGIL has entered the room.
mordacil: aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Finrod
AuSteinM has entered the room.
AuSteinM: Aiya!
VardaValar1: AuStein! heya
VardaValar1: College treating you ok? : )
VardaValar1: Fangorn just phoned and said hi to everyone from the oil rig
AuSteinM: Oh yes! Just finished this year's Mystery Hunt and about to go to a wrapup meeting
Eonwe Valar: Heya to Fangorn.
Eonwe Valar: Heya to everyone who came in after Arathorn.
VardaValar1: What is a Mystery Hunt?
ArPharazonV: be vewy vewy quiet....
ArPharazonV: I'm hunting mystewy!
AuSteinM: Its a huge puzzle challenge...this one lasted for 36 hours, previous ones were from 24 to 60 hours
AuSteinM: hehe
VardaValar1: Well, stew anyway.
VardaValar1: Sounds fun
AuSteinM: Great fun! its one of the highlights of the year...if anybody should be near Boston next year, they're quite welcome to join in
ArPharazonV: hmm.. is one allowed to sleep during that time? ;-)
VardaValar1: Sleep? What is this? : )
FinduilasV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Hey there Finduilas!
AuSteinM: Yes, but you might miss something good (besides, who really needs sleep?)
AuSteinM: afk for meeting
VardaValar1: Scroll is good. May you survive two meetings at once. : )
FinduilasV: Aiya all ! sorry for the delay, just was discovering Darkwhisper gorge and got the remaining halfway decent map of Wintersring completed":-)
VardaValar1: grats on that : )
FinduilasV: /me smiles and bows
VardaValar1: Let's get this cart rolling down the rutted road to wherever we end up. : )

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership News:
VardaValar1: We've had another email request to join, might be one of the guys you've been talking to, Fin. He didn't say where he heard of us yet.
FinduilasV: What is his name?
VardaValar1: On the inactivity sweep, I haven't sent many letters out yet, but hope to be doing them this upcoming week
VardaValar1: He didn't identify himself except by his email. This is sadly common.
VardaValar1: Just a How do I join, mainly.
FinduilasV: /me nods
VardaValar1: If any of you know members who are on but not yet marked as 2007 on the Membership list, please have them contact me if they would like to help the guild continue.
VardaValar1: We are only as good as the members and what the members do.
VardaValar1: We the people are the guild.
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?
VardaValar1: *folds up soapbox*

VardaValar1: Web News:
Eonwe Valar: Classes start Tuesday for me.
VardaValar1: ouch
VardaValar1: It's been really good having you around lately in-game. : )
VardaValar1: We'll miss you.
Eonwe Valar: :}
FallenGlory has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Back down to my once a week at best, aye:}
VardaValar1: Aiya Olwe! Glad you could make it!
VardaValar1: Web News:
FallenGlory: Hehe, thanks, watching the NFL playoffs so I'm a tad distracted ;-)
VardaValar1: On the Valar Guild Forum, under our rp "Scouting Ahead", new postings are up.
VardaValar1: Ancalagon is considering joining us while we make our run through several lands
VardaValar1: We have started a new section, Part 5
ArPharazonV: yeah, I might have gone a little out of line on my last post...
VardaValar1: If anyone else would like to make a character there, now is a good transitional time where we can bump into various races and newcomers.
VardaValar1: It was interesting, Phar!
ArPharazonV: but except for the whole possession part, I haven't seen any complaints so far ;-)
VardaValar1: That's all that bothered me too. Maybe it's not actually possession but a confusing corruption by a touching spirit?
FinduilasV: i put in Fralis next post there , you know kind of sumjmary of jhis preparations and may be some last word of Nari , or what his foster father is called
FinduilasV: i have to check my story ;-)
ArPharazonV: well, the spirit, in this case, actually inhabits the body... it could be a central factor in the way I have planned to resolve it, although I won't go there for a while yet
ArPharazonV: but the way I see it, as the Fea and the body seem to be seperated in some way
Eonwe Valar: Until the actual description of possession, I for some reason got the impression of something similar to the spell of bottomless dread that Morgoth puts on his followers (including Maeglin when he betrayed Gondolin).
FinduilasV: well kind of anyway, guardian , if you like , since Gloin was his Fosterfather and Gimli his foster brother
VardaValar1: Perhaps it could be slightly worked with to make it fit Tolkien a tad better.
ArPharazonV: is it possible to have 2 feas in the same body?
ArPharazonV: 1 trying to suppress the other?
VardaValar1: Houseless Ones
VardaValar1: Need to look up those elf spirits, could give a better clue.
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure I've heard of even Morgoth doing that.
ArPharazonV: well, there has to be a first time, anyway...
VardaValar1: Possession is a bit much, but maybe we could work out something kind of like it.
ArPharazonV: I doubt Morgoth would do anything of the kind, I think he liked his own body too much :-)
VardaValar1: Something that looks like it but is really a corrupting influence that he needs to fight?
FinduilasV: something like mind control eh? I believe he had some power over the will of the people he wished to dominate
VardaValar1: Saruman's Voice power did that in a way.
ArPharazonV: what I need it to be for what I have planned out to work, is a: indeed a spirit seizing control of the body while repressing the mind, but b: the death of the body also being the defeat or at least the weakening of the evil spirit
FinduilasV: and could force them to do things they normally would not do .. like reporting news and such
ArPharazonV: when Calaron dies (eventually, I even have a scene planned out for this, but it will probably change over time) I want the spirit to be defeated too
VardaValar1: Hey, I remember something about that. Morgoth would take elves into captivity and send them back partly controlled, pretending to be escapees.
VardaValar1: Then the real escapees could not reintegrated into society because other elves thought they were like that too.
ArPharazonV: so would you have any suggestions as an alternative to this that could still do the trick?
ArPharazonV: we could make it a bit like Sauron and his Ring, as he poured power in the Ring, but when the Ring was destroyed, Sauron was defeated too
ArPharazonV: in this case, the spirit could have part of him inside Calaron influencing him, thus weakening/defeating him when Calaron dies as well
VardaValar1: Sweating that out. Just gave a few. Need to look up Houseless Ones, and/or that corruption Morgoth did to the captive elves sending them against Doriath
ArPharazonV: the death of the captive elves would not weaken Morgoth himself
ArPharazonV: which is what I'm looking for, in the end
VardaValar1: Aye, death would free the fea
VardaValar1: Orcs didn't fight the influence, so they could wind up with Morgoth in the Void. But the captive elves who presumably fought it might have gone to Valinor. Lot of ifs there.
Eonwe Valar: Let's say for a moment that an Elf could be possessed. What's to stop that spirit from fleeing the Elf body once the body is in danger?
VardaValar1: Have to be unexpected and sudden.
ArPharazonV: can the Elven fea willingly escape the body if it's being suppressed, or has almost no control over the body?
ArPharazonV: and what would happen to it?
Eonwe Valar: The Elven fea is the natural in habitant of the body.
VardaValar1: A fea can leave the body over great grief and go to Mandos
Eonwe Valar: *inhabitant
VardaValar1: but this means death of the body.
ArPharazonV: and what if another fea or spirit was to inhabit that body also, at the time?
ArPharazonV: would the body still die?
ArPharazonV: note that this second fea is now largely in control of the body?
VardaValar1: I would need to look up Houseless Ones and see if there's more on that.
Eonwe Valar: How about we pick this up in Tolkien chat so we have some time to flip through our books.
VardaValar1: Make a good article : )
VardaValar1: That would help. Good topic.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I'd like to investigate this as well.
ArPharazonV: allright, just mentioned my post as the RP was mentioned, I hoped we could deal with it briefly, but it's taking a lot longer than I expected :-)
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar. This is another good offshoot of the rp, the new topics.
VardaValar1: You already know what you want, whether or not it has a Tolkien basis. Makes it harder.
VardaValar1: Not working outward from Tolkien, but trying to justify, so it is tougher.
VardaValar1: Any other web news?
ArPharazonV: well that could be a problem for me... I like to think up my own stories, take control, which I have done too much in the RP already... I could adapt it to fit it in, but when I start something like this I usually have a
ArPharazonV: general line of events already worked out, so when something as crucial to that as this element is at stake, it's quite hard to have the story survive at all
VardaValar1: It can still survive, just need to do some wiggling.

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Any gaming besides WoW this week?
VardaValar1: Sauron started NeverWinter Nights.
FinduilasV: I started the single man campaign for Frozen throne
FinduilasV: the demon hunt
VardaValar1: In D2X, all my characters, even the 99, expired, so I started from scratch again, this time Regular, non-Ladder.
FinduilasV: I get to the ships no bother , but then ...
VardaValar1: Then?
FinduilasV: /me shrugs
Eonwe Valar: You have to save the ships.
FinduilasV: two ships have to be saved aye, thats the problem
Eonwe Valar: Howso? Didn't seem that hard to me.
FinduilasV: if i could split the troops with one attacking those who destroy the ships but does not work
ArPharazonV: been a while since I played that level... do they attack you as well besides the ships?
Eonwe Valar: Making liberal use of Maeiv's Fan of Knives?
FinduilasV: aye
ArPharazonV: oh, small hint, where you place the points for your abilities
ArPharazonV: I would advise you to have 3 points in Blink by the third scenario, or it will be a lot harder to finish
ArPharazonV: or well, in the third scenario
FinduilasV: ok , cheers L(
FinduilasV: :will keep trying , '-)
FinduilasV: ;-)
VardaValar1: Houseless Ones not in quick index check of RotK, Sil, UT, BoLT 1 or 2, Lays, Shaping, Lost Road.
VardaValar1: or Letters.
VardaValar1: This one is going to be hard.
VardaValar1: Know another name for Houseless Ones it might be under?
VardaValar1: Might be under a discussion of after life, not indexed.
Eonwe Valar: Might also just look for key words like death, spirit, soul, F�a,..
VardaValar1: Onwards
VardaValar1: Aye, just take some time to do all of them.
VardaValar1: Any other games played besides WoW?
ArPharazonV: oh, I've played some other games as well
VardaValar1: What were they, Pharbuddy? : )
ArPharazonV: a bit of War of the Ring (a certain Risk-like game-mode of Battle for Middle-earth 2)
ArPharazonV: and some Populous: The Beginning, where I for the first time beat lvl 6 today without using any cheats ;-)
ArPharazonV: considering there are 25 levels, I have a lot to learn still...
Eonwe Valar: To remind you, there is an actual RTS out there called "War of the Ring" so be careful to remember to specify when you mean the game mode in BFME2 :}
ArPharazonV: also, I'm downloading Discworld II right now, and I hope to get to play it in the following week :-)
ArPharazonV: well, I did, didn't I? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, just making sure you don't assume later that we automatically know which you mean :}
ArPharazonV: but I doubt I will play it much in any case, because the WoW expansion hits the stores on Tuesday...
ArPharazonV: but that's all non-WoW for me
VardaValar1: Aye, that's the big news : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe, your floor for WoW.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: This week's questing had two goals: Araj, and the Battle of Darrowshire. Joining the war was Eowyn, Arathorn, Beline, Eonw�, and after the initial attempt on Darrowshire, Deathiscommin, a friend of Beline's.
Eonwe Valar: Our first task was to defeat Araj. Joined by another two, one in the group and one not (sorry, missed writing down names), we took Araj down in a not-so-smooth fight.
Eonwe Valar: Once done with him, we worked Eowyn through the Darrowshire quests until she was ready with us to take on the Battle of Darrowshire.
Eonwe Valar: On the first attempt, we did well with only four of us, despite the raid recommendation.
Eonwe Valar: We managed to keep Davil alive and defeat Horgus, and then keep Redpath alive for a while, but unfortunately it wasn't quite long enough.
Eonwe Valar: We went for repairs, and Beline messaged his friend to aid us in our battle.
Eonwe Valar: After repairs, we headed back to Darrowshire for Round 2. With five of us, now, we started once again, and did much better.
Eonwe Valar: We saved Davil, and kept Redpath alive up until he became Redpath the Corrupted. That was when it became ugly, and we started getting beaten back.
Eonwe Valar: The rez times had become long by then, but we tried to keep the battle alive.
Eonwe Valar: During one of our recoveries, however, the enemies all left, and we thought we might have to start again, when to our delight we found Joseph Redpath's Ghost waiting to talk to us.
Eonwe Valar: Talking to him, we then returned to Pamela and completed the quest, thus winning the Battle of Darrowshire :}
Eonwe Valar: And that concludes the Lothar Guild Questing report.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe!
ArPharazonV: Deathiscommin?
VardaValar1: A friend of Eonwe's brother's.
ArPharazonV: that's one of the major reasons I play on a RP-server...
ArPharazonV: the names :-)
VardaValar1: Makes him a guild-friend. oh, hehe
VardaValar1: maybe a guild-friend
VardaValar1: As Phar said, WoW is coming out with the expansion Burning Crusade on the 16th
Eonwe Valar: Check your local area for midnight openings :}
FinduilasV: hehe good joke on Skye /=
VardaValar1: Details are on their site, including the two new races, jewelcrafting, new continent with flying mounts, and raising the comp to level 70.
ArPharazonV: what does "comp" stand for, exactly?
VardaValar1: WoW Europe folks, is there any actual Valar news? Branch doings? Met any of the gang there? Galadriel or Aragorn ever make contact?
VardaValar1: comp is computer, sorry.
ArPharazonV: raising the computer to lvl 70?
VardaValar1: ahh, the level cap. Sorry, logjam of talk hit the chat. Thanks for catching it.
FinduilasV: Well , Varda not much
FinduilasV: but Calaron helped Finduilasse escorting the goblin out of the cave in Fire Plume Ridge in Un goro
ArPharazonV: spent most of the week myself grinding for money and some leatherworking patterns, because the specialization requirements were removed for most patterns... came down below 1g at one point, so it was necessary
ArPharazonV: but yeah, I found time to help Finduilasse there :-)
VardaValar1: Nice. : )
FinduilasV: we were joined by two chance fellow travellers who seemed a bit clueless for all their maturity in level lol
VardaValar1: Might not have played them up to that level. Happens.
FinduilasV: aye , think so but anyway it was okay and good fun
FinduilasV: else i reached lvl 54 and mapped most areas , including EP and Winterspring , Moonglade, started questing in felwood
FinduilasV: oh assembled Pamelas Doll by the way and visited her auntie and the uncle i think
FinduilasV: reached that chapple by rather unconventional means but nm ;-)
FinduilasV: but thats just on a personal note , bit shoulder patting , alas
FinduilasV: please carry on :-)
VardaValar1: Uldaman server:
VardaValar1: We have continuous small activity there, but
VardaValar1: when the expansion comes out and we need space on our accounts to play blood-elves
VardaValar1: it may be much more popular.
VardaValar1: Remember to type /join Valar for the friend channel so we can invite each other or at least find each other.
mordacil has left the room.
VardaValar1: We are considering ways of setting up some sub-sections for the various WoW servers on the Forum.
VardaValar1: Right now it is set to serve all, but that seems inadequate apparently.
VardaValar1: So we are considering how to do it in a more helpful fashion.
FinduilasV: i would love a section for screenshots from guildquests
VardaValar1: We have one
VardaValar1: It's on the website
FinduilasV: where?
VardaValar1: but you mean on the forum.
FinduilasV: aye , thats what i meant
VardaValar1: We could consider if it would take too much space on the forum or not, check it out.
VardaValar1: A normal screenshot is huge.
VardaValar1: It needs changed to a different format, such as jpg, to be reasonable in size.
FinduilasV: right , i could manage that, or have somebody who does ;-)
VardaValar1: You might take a look at our current screenshot section.
VardaValar1: on the main site.
VardaValar1: The Forum is not our main site.
Eonwe Valar: Fortunately A:}
FinduilasV: definitely not hehe, ok , is it under gaming and then under screenshots?
Eonwe Valar:
Eonwe Valar: should be it.
VardaValar1: heh, he found it first
Eonwe Valar: ok, it is :}
FinduilasV: :-)
FinduilasV: thankies
VardaValar1: Sorry, got to looking. : )
VardaValar1: Any further gaming news?
VardaValar1: Elladan just crashed
VardaValar1: Any further business?
FinduilasV: hopefully *only * computerwise?
VardaValar1: aye, I trust. : )

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
FinduilasV: /me looks relieved
VardaValar1: Anyone still with us please say Aye
VardaValar1: Aye
FinduilasV: aye
VardaValar1: Eonwe was trying to set up the Forum for the various WoW servers.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
AuSteinM: not-aye
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: sorta aye? : )
AuSteinM: one-ayed
VardaValar1: At least we have puns : )
VardaValar1: Pharazon's topic is still up for use.
VardaValar1: Do we have any instances in Tolkien's stories of possession?
ArPharazonV: oh, sorry, aye
VardaValar1: He is interested in elves.
VardaValar1: Hi Phar. : )
VardaValar1: We do have instances of influence so strong they are nearly possession.
VardaValar1: That might work.
VardaValar1: Maeglin already had some corruption to work with, but he was not really dangerous until after being captured.
ArPharazonV: true, true
VardaValar1: The elves captured and corrupted to be returned as spies to the area of Doriath might be closer.
ArPharazonV: but if the death of the body would not weaken the possessor, I would have to severely alter the story :-)
VardaValar1: They were normal elves to start with.
ArPharazonV: but yeah, we'll see what we can come up with
VardaValar1: The death of the body would probably oust any occupant.
VardaValar1: That part will probably work fine.
ArPharazonV: oust, yes, but weaken to the point of defeat?
VardaValar1: Isn't that the defeat, tossing him out of the body?
ArPharazonV: depends on how you look at it
VardaValar1: Fear/dread had a lot of effect even en masse.
ArPharazonV: if you would kill the Elves that Morgoth returned to spies, it would not be a weakening or defeat of Morgoth himself
ArPharazonV: he would just lose "minions"
VardaValar1: He couldn't make use of the body anymore. It's operating system would be gone. How's that? : )
VardaValar1: It was a weakening of his spy system.
VardaValar1: Mostly they didn't kill the elves, just didn't let them back into society.
VardaValar1: No kinslaying.
Eonwe Valar: Almost done with the Forum, then will weigh in on this.
ArPharazonV: you are right, of course, but that kinda misses the point I'm trying to set up in the rp
VardaValar1: I'm playing with the topic, but feel free to keep me on track. : )
ArPharazonV: this shadow that now occupies/possesses/influences Calaron, we have faced before in the forest, and seems to be in command of quite an Orcish army
VardaValar1: If the body was important to the scheme, then it would be a defeat.
VardaValar1: Dol Guldur is the source of the shadow over Mirkwood.
VardaValar1: The Necromancer aka Sauron is the main source.
Eonwe Valar: Well, the questions to be answered are 1.) Is there a precedent in Tolkien, and 2.) If there is not, can we draw a conclusion in favor of it from Tolkien?
Eonwe Valar: Ok, back to Forum.
VardaValar1: His wraiths kept it up after he left, I guess. But after the wraiths left, what kept it going so strongly?
VardaValar1: Thanks Eonwe. : )
ArPharazonV: another spirit? another servant of Morgoth, hidden and biding its time?
ArPharazonV: this is not a wraith, I hope we have established this
VardaValar1: There were plenty of dark spirits, stronger than human wraiths.
VardaValar1: Maia of Morgoth, whom Sauron was the leader of.
ArPharazonV: and yet, whatever we have created, would no longer be an influence after we're done with it, because it does not show up in Lotr
VardaValar1: Maiar.
ArPharazonV: so we need to deal with it some way or another
ArPharazonV: interrupting its "scheme" is nice, but I was aiming for a more... shall we say... direct approach
VardaValar1: We need to be operating within the books best we can, aye, or we are just doing a separate fantasy not of Tolkien.
VardaValar1: Ok, so we have a powerful being working for Sauron, at this time not a wraith.
FinduilasV: influenced by Tolkien , Varda, and that not too shortly
VardaValar1: The Nine were hunting Frodo, but were "unhorsed" and without their wrappings.
FinduilasV: but it is hard roleplaying within a set frame, i know that only too well from other rp boards
VardaValar1: They went back to Sauron for re-outfitting, including Fell Beasts.
VardaValar1: So what are we against?
VardaValar1: It could be worse than ringwraiths, as in Maiar.
ArPharazonV: in a way, parallel (sp?) to Sauron's story with his Ring... to increase his power he put much of his power in the Ring, but when the Ring was destroyed Sauron was diminished
FinduilasV: What were the Barrowwrights?
VardaValar1: It could be that they were beings who wore some of those lesser rings.
ArPharazonV: that was the story I was aiming to parallel with Calaron and the shadow
ArPharazonV: if the shadow possessed Calaron, and Calaron was killed, the shadow, the spirit, the Maia, would be diminished
VardaValar1: The Barrow wights were "evil spirits" (Maiar) who possessed the dead buried in the Barrows.
FinduilasV: ah there we go
ArPharazonV: now if possession is no longer an acceptable factor, I want to try to find an alternative that ends with the same consequence
VardaValar1: They were dead bodies.
VardaValar1: We can come up with a scenario that works.
ArPharazonV: being: if Calaron dies, the spirit itself would be diminished, and not just its plans
VardaValar1: Here's one, maybe.
VardaValar1: If it's a person of some race (you pick) using one of the lesser rings,
VardaValar1: Calaron may have the ring in his possession.
VardaValar1: It may have been planted on him.
FinduilasV: Calaron .. or Calion?
VardaValar1: It might not have been specifically for him
ArPharazonV: Calaron
ArPharazonV: Calion's brother :-)
FinduilasV: aha :I
FinduilasV: :-)
VardaValar1: That's why our group cares. Calaron is brother to a party member.
VardaValar1: and the plot is affected too.
ArPharazonV: I would prefer not to change the posts I have already, so Calaron himself would be personally chosen
ArPharazonV: could the shadow influence him, and to strengthen its control, put the ring on his finger?
VardaValar1: The thing could be in the ring and is therefore on Calaron.
FinduilasV: ah now i understand that ..thanks , it hellps a lot
Eonwe Valar: But why does Auros care about Calion's brother? :}
Eonwe Valar: (I kid :})
VardaValar1: He doesn't have to. ;-)
VardaValar1: He will care when Calaron impacts Auros' mission.
ArPharazonV: he doesn't have to, but you'll be heading to Angmar, and so will I, since that's the direction Calaron was last seen :-)
ArPharazonV: and yes, Calaron would impact Auros' mission
Eonwe Valar: It's that wolf's fault! I knew it!
VardaValar1: The ring might not look like a ring. It could be inside something.
ArPharazonV: what do you mean with "the thing could be in the ring", Varda?
VardaValar1: o well
VardaValar1: Maybe the ring pretty well ate/absorbed this lesser being than a king of Numenor.
VardaValar1: So he is in the ring more or less bodiless.
ArPharazonV: how would that affect our earlier encounters with it?
VardaValar1: He is trying to operate the body nearest him chosen for the purpose.
VardaValar1: I am making this up on the fly. Not canon. : )
ArPharazonV: of course, of course, but it's quite interesting
VardaValar1: Danke
VardaValar1: Maybe the ring was brought in during the underground spider run time.
VardaValar1: Taken to that base where Calaron is.
VardaValar1: It's inside something he has, maybe was attached to his belt like a rivet.
VardaValar1: Now if elves used piercings, he'd really be in trouble. ; )
ArPharazonV: I visualised the shadow as more ethereal, actually, as you might have read
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure how I'd change the post
ArPharazonV: an orc coming up with the item and putting it on Calaron's body?
VardaValar1: Once the ring is with Calaron, it can act the same way as the post.
VardaValar1: Nope. It's in something that Calaron picked up.
VardaValar1: Something he'd investigate.
VardaValar1: Then once it's on him, the ghostly presence can manifest.
VardaValar1: Right when it thinks Calaron is vulnerable, preoccupied.
ArPharazonV: in the battle, for example, yes
VardaValar1: As with an attack on the post.
VardaValar1: Calaron doesn't know about the ring.
VardaValar1: He knows nothing until the attack.
VardaValar1: It's just inside something else he has.
ArPharazonV: and yet, Calaron is not the only one aware of the spirit's presence, as the Orcs cower down and the wolf makes a run for it...
VardaValar1: Something planted for him to pick up.
ArPharazonV: you mean, on his scouting journey to the north, perhaps?
ArPharazonV: from which he returned the time we first met him?
VardaValar1: Sure. Once the thing begins manifesting, the ones recognizing it are going to be terrified.
VardaValar1: Up to you. That could be why it got him instead of another.
ArPharazonV: good point
VardaValar1: Figured he'd do. : )
ArPharazonV: yet then, there's also 1 more point
VardaValar1: It would not manifest until it found the time right.
VardaValar1: go for it.
ArPharazonV: during the battle, and the previous encounters, the spirit was in command of the Orcish forces
VardaValar1: um
ArPharazonV: how would this do, if he was on a Ring that Calaron had in his possession?
ArPharazonV: he commanded them
ArPharazonV: he was what we encountered, no?
VardaValar1: ahh, got an explanation. : )
VardaValar1: that's a separate question.
ArPharazonV: it is, but if we need to tie this in, we'd better do it well :-)
Eonwe Valar: OK, here's a little something from my farovite-to-quote section on Elves, "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" :}
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: The thing didn't pour itself completely into the ring until it was time.
VardaValar1: It had some unpleasant falling apart body
VardaValar1: one that Calaron could become in time. Scary huh?
ArPharazonV: hmm... now we're on to something
VardaValar1: Calaron may have met it on his trip north?
ArPharazonV: so if it bided its time, only pouring itself in the ring when it wanted to manifest itself, commanding the orcs up to that point
ArPharazonV: it would explain the cowering/wavering orcs at the time of the manifesting
ArPharazonV: if at that point it relinquished command and poured itself into the ring which Calaron held
VardaValar1: Then the body it had before would go down, maybe in some spectacular or gruesome fashion, as it jumped ship completely.
Eonwe Valar: "It might be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at any time in the ages of their lives. But this is not so. For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly;
VardaValar1: Saruman's body had a nice effect.
Eonwe Valar: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages also. Moreover their body and spirit are not separated but coherent.
VardaValar1: Just have the shadowy form go into the ring as the body goes bad and you've got it.
VardaValar1: There you go. If Calaron leaves his body, the body won't survive.
Eonwe Valar: As the weight of the yearsm with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change.
VardaValar1: well, sorta not
ArPharazonV: allright, so let's just say: bad guy has Ring, and is partially poured into it.. he either plants it somewhere or loses it, and Calaron picks it up on his trip
Eonwe Valar: This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldali� on earth will have become as spirits invisble to mortal eyes,
Eonwe Valar: unless they will to be seen by some among Men whose minds they may enter directly." (There's a footnote for this, so will now look that up.)
VardaValar1: So the body becomes part of the spirit.
ArPharazonV: up to the Orcish attack on the outpost, bad guy is still in charge of the Orcish force
ArPharazonV: but during the final moments of the battle, bad guy decides to leave his own body, leaving the Orcs without command for a few precious moments, leaving them wavering
ArPharazonV: and pours himself completely into the Ring, manifesting
ArPharazonV: causing the Orcs to cower before he takes command again, and taking over Calaron through the ring
Eonwe Valar: Footnote just describes the paragraph at ending with "will to be seen."
ArPharazonV: would that work with our story, and with Tolkien?
ArPharazonV: if aforementioned bad guy was a sort of wraith?
VardaValar1: The orcs might see a dreadful spirit like a shadow around Calaron and recognize it.
ArPharazonV: so would Helvy, since he too was once corrupted by the shadow of Dol Guldur, and can probably smell a wraith from a mile away :-)
VardaValar1: Might be wiggleable. : )
VardaValar1: Helvy might attack Calaron.
ArPharazonV: and Helvy will, eventually... if I ever get to write the death-scene I have in mind :-)
VardaValar1: That or put all four feet to running hard. ;-)
ArPharazonV: but as the shadow manifests, he just runs away hard ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Bah, everyone knows Helvy will go back to serving his master :}
ArPharazonV: Helvy will go back to serving Calion, but for now we won't see him again for a while
VardaValar1: Fainan is looking for a new skin for a dagger sheath.
VardaValar1: Hmm, wolfskin.
VardaValar1: j/k
ArPharazonV: hehe
Eonwe Valar: His wolfskin would be no more usable than his pack's :}
VardaValar1: Drat. There goes the cloak idea.
Eonwe Valar: And we burned them, remember? :}
VardaValar1: All those corrupted skins in Mirkwood. Maybe a little hunting as we pass by Dale towards Mirkwood?
ArPharazonV: oh, one more thing, something I have in mind for the next part of the Calaron-story... he would be fighting this spirit for his own mind, trying to keep control, while the spirit probed his mind for a weakness
ArPharazonV: would that work?
ArPharazonV: I have an idea to break Calaron's will completely, but he would have to put up some resistance at first
VardaValar1: Sure. Just like Frodo and Boromir with the Ring picking on their minds.
VardaValar1: They both broke, just Boromir went down much faster.
VardaValar1: Calaron's ring is not nearly as strong though.
ArPharazonV: true, but the spirit inside it is quite more focused, since he doesn't have a body to pay attention to :-)
ArPharazonV: it attacks Calaron more directly instead of more subtle
VardaValar1: Handy. No meetings, no ringwraiths asking for suits and rides, etc.
VardaValar1: Maybe "inside" is the wrong word. "Attached" might be better.
VardaValar1: That gives you a bit more freedom.
ArPharazonV: in any case, if the spirit was trying to make Calaron do something he would protest to with all his will, and it succeeded... it could break Calaron's will quite permanently, no?
VardaValar1: If he's not a resilient type, maybe.
ArPharazonV: don't want to give any spoilers, but killing a loved one in this case...
VardaValar1: You pretty well told us you're killing him off. : )
ArPharazonV: yes
ArPharazonV: but in this case, to break him completely, he will cause Calaron to kill a loved one first
VardaValar1: Might show Calaron as being kind of brittle. Not much sense of humor, unable to have flexibility.
VardaValar1: If the thing is going to be in our plot, it might want Auros killed.
ArPharazonV: true, but we don't want Auros to die yet, do we? ;-)
VardaValar1: Auros is leading an expedition that might bring in outsiders against Dol Guldur.
ArPharazonV: besides, Calaron doesn't even know Auros that well
ArPharazonV: so it wouldn't exactly break his will that much
VardaValar1: The thing has some idea that Auros is dangerous, or the party is.
Eonwe Valar: Auros is a Noldo and could take Calaron :}
VardaValar1: Afraid so. : )
ArPharazonV: it would be quite sudden
VardaValar1: Calaron could also be leading a lot of baddies.
ArPharazonV: an arrow from some unsuspected bushes, perhaps
ArPharazonV: as a Mirkwood elf, he can aim quite well...
VardaValar1: It's not just Calaron anymore. It has the resources of the ring baddie.
ArPharazonV: wouldn't be as much full battle as a subtle assassination
VardaValar1: Just don't forget that it's much more than Calaron, that it has a lot of forces at its disposal.
Eonwe Valar: Auros could feel that evil spirit coming as well.
ArPharazonV: true, true
VardaValar1: A head bad guy would just send someone to do an assassination.
VardaValar1: Maybe that is all that's happening there. Not inhabiting Calaron, but influencing him to do an assassination as a tool.
ArPharazonV: yes, but that would take away the point of the assassination in the first place, Varda, because to break Calaron, he has to do it himself ;-)
ArPharazonV: I would like to say so much more, but I don't want to spoil it
VardaValar1: Ok, so Calaron would break by thinking he's killed his brother and can do no worse. Worst kind of kinslaying.
VardaValar1: Of course, Calion isn't quite dead, but Calaron doesn't know that, or the ring baddie.
ArPharazonV: hah! now we're getting somewhere.. but it's not Calion I had in mind :-)
Eonwe Valar: Still researching Morgoth's use of spirits in HoME.
VardaValar1: Do those last two books mention Houseless Ones in the indices?
VardaValar1: *Still doesn't have them, even after Christmas.*
Eonwe Valar: Will check.
VardaValar1: Thank you!
Eonwe Valar: Not in 12
VardaValar1: Well, I don't think Calaron is in love with Fainan, so who is in the party to tie this into the story?
Eonwe Valar: Not in 11
ArPharazonV: not in the party, actually
ArPharazonV: but the party will hear of it, of course
Eonwe Valar: ooh
Eonwe Valar: Book 10 looks like it might have stuff I missed in just looking over Laws a Customs.
Eonwe Valar: "House, The"-
Eonwe Valar: As an image of the body, the House and the Indweller, houseless (of the Dead), (of Melkor), housed, unhoused, rehoused, etc.
Eonwe Valar: I will now be examining those choices.
Eonwe Valar: "Manw� spoke to Eru, saying: 'Behold! an evil appears in Arda that we did not look for: the First-born Children, whom Thou madest immortal,
FinduilasV: it sounds very intrigueing i have to admit that
FinduilasV: now i get some idea :-)
Eonwe Valar: suffer now severence of spirit and body. Many of the f�anor of the Elves in Middle-Earth are now houseless; and even in Aman there is one. The houseless we summon to Aman, to keep them from the Darkness,
Eonwe Valar: and all who hear our voice abide here in waiting. What further is to be done?
Eonwe Valar: Is there no means by which their lives may be renewed, to follow the courses which Thou hast designed> And what of the bereaved who mourn those that have gone?
Eonwe Valar: This is mostly about the re-incarnation of Elves,..
VardaValar1: Sounds pertinent.
Eonwe Valar: Mostly about Eru granting the Valar the authority, and describing the terms. I'll summarize for expediency.
Eonwe Valar: (As much fun as it is to just quote :})
Eonwe Valar: Manw� was concerned he did not have the authority, Eru gave him the authority...
Eonwe Valar: They could remake the body of the Elf, or the f�a may be reborn as a child.
VardaValar1: Aye. That is Glorfindel remade.
VardaValar1: and the fea reborn is a basis for a story I wrote for the guild.
Eonwe Valar: The spirit retains a full imprint and memory of its former house.
Eonwe Valar: The f�a in its nakedness (not having a body) is open to the Valar to read.
Eonwe Valar: Using the imprint, the Valar can refashion the body before evil had befallen it..
Eonwe Valar: For rebirth, Eru screens those applicants himself :}
Eonwe Valar: The text later describes that Tolkien was coming to the point at which he abandoned rebirth as a mode for rehousing an Elven f�a.
FinduilasV: /me yawns sleepily and stretches
Eonwe Valar: he'd been going over the difficulties of such at every level "(including practical and psychological)"
VardaValar1: Fin, it's late for you. Feel free to call it a night (or morning).
FinduilasV: Friends, Fellows , countrymen (speaking as Noldo princess)
FinduilasV: much as this discussion fascinates me, i fear it is far to abstract to take part as such a late hour
FinduilasV: at such a late hour
VardaValar1: 6:30 pm for Eonwe and me. ;-)
ArPharazonV: goodnight then, Finduilas, and Namarie :-)
Eonwe Valar: sorry, skimming as fast as I can.
FinduilasV: hehe :P , i know and i do enjoy following it :-)
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Finduilas :}
VardaValar1: We have a transcript for a reason. : )
FinduilasV: but i might take your word , and call my servaTS TO take me to bed
FinduilasV: ;-)
VardaValar1: Best to have you here for input, but it can help when exhausted1
FinduilasV: i am sorry , Varda but i fear my mundane tasks call me in a few hours
Eonwe Valar: Some interesting stuff here, but nothing relating closely enough to what we are discussing to be of note.
VardaValar1: No problem, Finduilas. Namarie for now. : )
FinduilasV: I will read the transcript :-)
FinduilasV: have fun
FinduilasV: Namarie !
FinduilasV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Phar and I are plotting and scheming in a side room...
VardaValar1: whilst reading the excerpts.
ArPharazonV: indeed, indeed
Eonwe Valar: Now examining "Of death and the Severence of F�a and Hroa"
VardaValar1: Sounds pertinent also.
Eonwe Valar: Rough summarization so far:
Eonwe Valar: (OR rather, summarization inasmuch as it affects our current conversation, with small quotes afterwards for reference)
Eonwe Valar: The older an Elf is, the less likely the body could be possessed by another, if it was ever possible.
VardaValar1: Calaron would need to be fairly young for an elf then.
Eonwe Valar: "according to unmarred nature no living incarnate may be without a f�a, nor without a hroa..."
AuSteinM has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: hroa is body for those who don't know.
Eonwe Valar: "Ifthen the hroa be estroyed, or so hurt that it ceases to have health, sooner or later it 'dies'... That is, it becomes painful for the f�a to dwell in it, being neither a help to life and will nor a delight to use
Eonwe Valar: so that the f�a departs from it,..."
Eonwe Valar: "The destruction of the hroa... was soon experience by the immortal Eldar, when they awoke in the marred and overshadowed realm of Arda. Indeed in their earlier days death came more readily;
Eonwe Valar: for their bodies were then less different from the bodies of Men, and the command of their spirits over their bodies less complete.
Eonwe Valar: This command was, nonetheless, at all times greater than it has ever been among Men. from their beginnings the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits.
Eonwe Valar: The f�ar of the Elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda, and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny.
Eonwe Valar: Their f�ar were tenacious therefore of life 'in the raiment of Arda', and far excelled the spirits of Men in power of that 'raiment', even from the first days protecting their bodies from many ills and assaults (such as disease)
Eonwe Valar: , and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men."
Eonwe Valar: "As ages passsed the dominance of their f�ar ever increased, consuming their bodies (as has been noted).The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it; for the body becomes at last, as it were,
Eonwe Valar: a mere memory held by the f�a; abd that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-Earth, so that Elves are indeed deathless and may not be destroyed or changed.
Eonwe Valar: Thus it is that the further we go back in the histories, the more often do we read of the death of the Elves of old, and in the days when the minds
Eonwe Valar: of the Eldalie were young and not yet fully awake death among them seemed to differ little from the death of Men."
Eonwe Valar: "Ass soon as they were disbodied they were summoned to leave the places of their life and death....If the obeyed tihs summons different opportunities lay before them..."
Eonwe Valar: "The f�a is single, and in the last impregnable. It cannot be brought to Mandos. It is summoned; and the summons proceeds from just authority, and is imperitive; yet it may be refused...
Eonwe Valar: It (refusal) was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, aor his servant Sauron after him; for them the f�a unbodies would flee in terror of the Shadow to any refuge - unless it were already committed to
Eonwe Valar: In like manner even of the Eldat some who had become corrupted refused the summons, and then had little power to resist the counter-summons of Morgoth."
Eonwe Valar: "In later days", i.e. after the Third Age, it seems, more Elves who died in Middle-Earth refused the summons.
Eonwe Valar: As such, they wander houseless.
Eonwe Valar: "unwilling to leave it and unable to inhabit it,>."
Eonwe Valar: Only those who had a body could operate in Arda, or commune with the Living.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, Phar, good news for you.
ArPharazonV: hmhm?
Eonwe Valar: I just found you some precedence.
ArPharazonV: hm!
Eonwe Valar: Here is the full quote. I will not omit one word, though you may have to excuse typos.
VardaValar1: I might fix a few in the transcript on quotes. No promises.
Eonwe Valar: "It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied,
Eonwe Valar: though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them.
Eonwe Valar: For the Unbodies, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity.
Eonwe Valar: Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy.
Eonwe Valar: Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone.
Eonwe Valar: They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is follow.
Eonwe Valar: *folly
Eonwe Valar: To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one's own will is wickedness.
Eonwe Valar: Such practices are of Morgoth; and necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.
Eonwe Valar: Some say that the Houseless desire bodies, though they are not willing to seek them lawfully by submission to the judgement of Mandos.
Eonwe Valar: The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. The peril of communing with them is, therefore, not only the peril of being deluded by fantasies or lies:
Eonwe Valar: there is also peril of destruction.
Eonwe Valar: For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the f�a from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured,
Eonwe Valar: even if it be not wrested from its rightful inhabitant.
Eonwe Valar: Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes.
Eonwe Valar: It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.
Eonwe Valar: [Thus it may be seen that those who in latter days hold that the Elves are dangerous to Men and this it is folly or wickedness to seek converse with them
Eonwe Valar: do not speak without reason.
Eonwe Valar: For how, it may be asked, shall a mortal distinguish the kinds?
Eonwe Valar: On the one hand, the Houseless, rebels at least against the Rulers (Valar), and maybe even deeper under the Shadow; on the other , the Lingerers, whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortal, or seen only dimly and fitfully
Eonwe Valar: .
Eonwe Valar: Yet the answer is not in truth difficult.
Eonwe Valar: Evil is not one thing among Elves and another among Men. (wish I had this quote last week now :})
Eonwe Valar: Those who give evil counsel, or speak against the Rulers, (or if they dare, against the One), are evil, and should be shunned whether bodies or unbodied. Moreoeverthe Lingerers are not houseless, thought they may seem to be.
VardaValar1: (I tried to quote it last week, didn't get it quite right.)
Eonwe Valar: They do not desire bodies, neither do they seek shelter, nor strive for mastery over body or mind.
Eonwe Valar: Indeed they do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rearely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fiar.
Eonwe Valar: *fair
Eonwe Valar: Then they may reveal to him their forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty. Of such he may have no fear,
Eonwe Valar: though he may feel awe of them.
Eonwe Valar: For the Houseless have no forms to reveal, and even if it were within their power (as some Men say) to counterfeit elvish forms, deluding the minds of Men with fantasies, such visions would be marred by the evil of their intent.
Eonwe Valar: For the hearts of true Men uprise in joy to behold the true likenesses of the First-born, their elder kindred; and this joy nothing evil can counterfeit. So spoke Aelfwine.]
Eonwe Valar: So, we have precedence for possession. The question now is can it happen to an Elf?
Eonwe Valar: This example seems mostly to focus on Men communing with Elves who died and stayed in Middle-Earth well past the Third Age.
Eonwe Valar: Thought it does say that Sauron taught his servants how to do this, which means it's plausible during our time frame as well.
VardaValar1: Aye.
ArPharazonV: Varda just mentioned a point, why could it take Calaron, and not Thranduil on a hunting trip for example... so a binding object could be necessary
VardaValar1: Some point of vulnerability not present elsewhere.
ArPharazonV: why did the Houseless One (or some disembodied and marred servant of Morgoth, perhaps) choose Calaron?
ArPharazonV: why did it succeed with Calaron?
VardaValar1: That's why the suggestion of a lesser ring. But it could be something else.
ArPharazonV: we don't even need to know what the object is yet... for all we know it was something he ate :-)
Eonwe Valar: It seems Calaron would have to be communing with the evil spirit in the first place.
VardaValar1: He might lose it. : )
VardaValar1: So something Calaron has with him could be causing him to commune unintentionally.
ArPharazonV: perhaps, yes
ArPharazonV: though he would not know it
VardaValar1: Something left by a necromancer?
ArPharazonV: perhaps... the spirit was already in a dying body
VardaValar1: We know that Sauron and the ringwraiths left Dol Guldur which continued to be hideously dangerous. Necromancer group?
ArPharazonV: and it left the object itself, before leaving it, so that it might find a suitable host again
ArPharazonV: and within a short time, too
VardaValar1: So the spirit could be a necromancer trained by Sauron who didn't want to die?
ArPharazonV: could be, yes
VardaValar1: phone, will scroll
ArPharazonV: a necromancer in command of the orcish army... or it least in his spiritual form
ArPharazonV: the orcish army coming from the North, at least
VardaValar1: back
ArPharazonV: must be quite a powerful one, then
VardaValar1: Or in his dying form. The orcs are terrified as they see him coming back in great power, as he was bad enough already.
Eonwe Valar: Well, the necromancer would hav eto have no body.
VardaValar1: They had to be powerful to give the elves so much trouble that it took Thranduil's people and Celeborn's to break them.
VardaValar1: Houseless elvish necromancer. heh
ArPharazonV: it would have to abandon its dying body first
ArPharazonV: oh, here's something...
ArPharazonV: "and even if it were within their power (as some Men say) to counterfeit elvish forms"
ArPharazonV: if this houseless necromancer shaped itself not as an Elvish form, but as a form of shadow and terror of sorts
VardaValar1: Got a point.
ArPharazonV: to place fear in his troops so that he could keep command of the Orcs
VardaValar1: Shadows tend to show a form matching intent.
ArPharazonV: and manifest itself as we have already seen, the shadow we encountered, the shadow coming on Calaron at the time of "possession" through the item
VardaValar1: The big shadow was the kind of shadow that has long been said to come out of Dol Guldur over Mirkwood, not a particular person.
VardaValar1: but he could have been in it.
ArPharazonV: if the dying necromancer placed the ring for Calaron to find, then left its dying body, assumed his shadowy form to keep in control of his forces, and from his manifestation sought to take Calaron at the time of battle...
ArPharazonV: could that work?
ArPharazonV: at that time it would break its "illusion", flow into the ring or whatever the item was we're talking about, and tried to take over Calaron from there?
ArPharazonV: "communing" through the object, and passing through it in the end?
VardaValar1: Sounds like it would fit your post without changing it.
ArPharazonV: exactly!
VardaValar1: Just don't say the whole shadow on Mirkwood is him, since it remains, and it could work.
ArPharazonV: can do, and it flows into the object, and not his entire body
ArPharazonV: and this type of shadow you mentioned, the same type as coming from Dol Guldur
ArPharazonV: might cause Helvy to freak out and run ;-)
VardaValar1: Helvy
ArPharazonV: the wolf
VardaValar1: has seen its like before.
ArPharazonV: yes
VardaValar1: aye, hit the Enter too soon. ; )
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: so he has reason to run. No problem with that!
ArPharazonV: he has seen it before, he knows what it has done to him... and runs :-)
Eonwe Valar: Maybe the spirit piggy-backed on Helvy from when we slew the other wolves and then jumped at the chance to take over Calaron :}
VardaValar1: Ties back into the story just peachy.
VardaValar1: ohhh
VardaValar1: Egad Eonwe.
Eonwe Valar: Depending on the relative power of the spirit, it may have been able to conceal itself even from Auros.
VardaValar1: Maybe the wolf having been under the influence before and now standing beside Calaron, gives the shadow an added aid unintentionally.
Eonwe Valar: Though maybe Auros had subconsciously suspected it, part of his hostility towards to wolf.
VardaValar1: This could be the "ring".
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, back to research :}
VardaValar1: Or the addition to the ring that is the reason the shadow didn't grab the body earlier, not enough power or ability to touch.
VardaValar1: Combination, very bad.
ArPharazonV: I don't think the spirit was hitch-hiking on Helvy, it would require too much tinkering... we know it has been commanding troops, we have felt its power come from the north, and Calaron felt it approaching the outpost...
ArPharazonV: but Helvy as a sort of catalyst for communication could work
Eonwe Valar: Here's another quote:
Eonwe Valar: "The f�ar of the Eldar, as Nienna hath said, cannot be broken or forced..*"
Eonwe Valar: "*By this is meant primarily the f�ar naked and unhoused. Living, the f�a can be deluded, and they can be dominated by fear (of one of great power such as Melkor) and so enslaved...."
Orodreth V has entered the room.
Orodreth V: Aiya
VardaValar1: Orodreth! Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Been a discussion of whether an elf can be taken over, as by possession.
VardaValar1: An elf whose hror is still fairly much like a normal body, not yet become fully one with the fear (spirit), is not fully finished.
VardaValar1: Not full grown, one might say. : )
Oessala has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: anyway, what would I need to change in my post? we've been working this rather well to the point of where it almost fits, but there's still some details
ArPharazonV: 1: Not the whole shadow disappears into Calaron's body
Orodreth V: I gt the feeling I won't be making it to meetings for the forseeable future.
Orodreth V: Silly money-making job thingy.
ArPharazonV: 2: It flows into an object, a ring, or whatever, and not the body
ArPharazonV: 3: It's obviously a servant of Sauron, so the whole ancient dialect of black speech might not work... at first I had it a servant of Morgoth
ArPharazonV: anything else?
ArPharazonV: aww, Orodreth
ArPharazonV: what's the forseeable future? years ahead?
VardaValar1: Even Orcs use Black Speech. Anything sounding like erudite Black Speech would probably work.
VardaValar1: Orodreth, don't forget the Forum and the Tolkien site.
VardaValar1: and the meetings tend to have people staying late like today. Is this late enough?
VardaValar1: Been like 4 hours.
ArPharazonV: "A language akin to the Black Speech, yet somehow... more ancient. From the age of Morgoth, perhaps."
ArPharazonV: I'll have to change that, but not sure how yet
VardaValar1: Maybe you'll make enough money to join us in the upcoming MMORPG's, even LotRO ;-)
VardaValar1: Depends. Phar. Black Speech is ancient.
Orodreth V: Varda: I'll stick to Eve, casue it's better.
VardaValar1: Introduced in the Second Age, died out, reintroduced in Third Age.
Orodreth V: Ar: Likely until college/career, so another year and change.
ArPharazonV: reintroduced, yes
VardaValar1: LotRO isn't even in 2nd Beta yet, Oro. : )
ArPharazonV: so would there not be some small changes of dialect with that reintroduction?
VardaValar1: Aye, so the Second Age could be the ancient version.
Orodreth V: They can't possibly do the same thing eve does with resources and territory without wrecking the LotR atmosphere.
ArPharazonV: the point I was trying to make was that it was older than the reintroduced Black Speech, as it may have come from a servant more directly under Morgoth
ArPharazonV: exactly, Varda
VardaValar1: Your guy speaks Third Age, but better than Orcs.
ArPharazonV: and that's why I need to change the post :-)

VardaValar1: Oro, play what makes you happy. : )
VardaValar1: Maybe you can get a Valar branch operating there. : )
Orodreth V: Been tring.
VardaValar1: Good spot to change.
Orodreth V: Got a couple prospects here.
VardaValar1: Hard to do. Seems like everyone is already in a group.
Orodreth V: My corp is our group.
Orodreth V: Well, and foundation...but I moved out of the RP alliance so it's freer in terms of topics.
VardaValar1: Phar, no argument.
Orodreth V: So I have more chances to bring out oog stuff.
VardaValar1: I'd like to find a way to reward people more for being Full Members.
VardaValar1: Any ideas would be welcome.
VardaValar1: Some kind of recognition for progress is always good.
ArPharazonV: I honestly have no idea how you would do that...
VardaValar1: I am trying to show some accomplishments on the Members page.
VardaValar1: I show the Author's Pages for Articles, Stories, Poems.
VardaValar1: Show their Honor ranks.
VardaValar1: Show what games they play.
VardaValar1: Maybe something in the Games they Play would help?
VardaValar1: I show if they email, come to meetings.
VardaValar1: Or try to show. Haven't been as good as I should with that.
VardaValar1: Should show if they are on the Forum or posted to it.
VardaValar1: The rp should be listed, you reckon?
VardaValar1: Sort of a game.
VardaValar1: Text game.
VardaValar1: If anyone drew scenes for it, they would be linked in.
VardaValar1: We can mull it over for another time. : )
VardaValar1: I'd like to go play that which cannot be named before bed. : )
ArPharazonV: I should like to go to bed, period ;-)
VardaValar1: Bed is good. : )
VardaValar1: May Irmo send you the best of dreams.
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well :}
VardaValar1: Namarie!
VardaValar1 has left the room.