Valar Guild

February 4, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

Back to News
Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharzon-(V) and Varda-(Valar)

Attending: (14)
    Members: Aerandir-(V)/mordacil, Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, ArathornValar, ArPharazonV, Bombur-(V)/MrMonkey2002Blah, Eonwe Valar, FinduilasV, Finrod-(V)/TH0R0NGIL, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet, Glorfindel VG, GwaihirValar, Menelvagor Valar, VardaValar1 (presiding)
    Friends: Srekal86

Meeting begins
    Sweep letters have gone out to see if we have people who are no longer in contact
    New Full Member: Erkenbrand-(V)
    New story author: Norgen
    Tulkas-(Valar) is back with us, playing in WoW Lothar, after a rough real life adventure. Link to Canadian news article.
    New story "Haleth, Son of Hama, Warrior of Rohan"
    WoW Burning Crusade quest chart, interactive
    Varda's topic: What did the Valar do for Middle-earth?

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya
TH0R0NGIL has entered the room.
MrMonkey2002Blah: Hail
Eonwe Valar: Salutations.
mordacil: oi
mordacil: aiya
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: just making a new home in Shattrah, I'll close WoW
ArathornValar has entered the room.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
Star of Phaet: Aiya all
ArathornValar: heya.. in mid run for my life :-P
Eonwe Valar: Aloha
VardaValar1: Putting up groceries, brb
VardaValar1: Aloha :-)
ArPharazonV: there, I'll search for a repairguy in Shattrah tomorrow...
VardaValar1: Back
VardaValar1: Hi to Arathorn, Ar-Pharazon, Arwen, Eonwe, Aerandir, Bombur, Gilraen, and Finrod. :-)
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Gwaihir : )
ArPharazonV: how's everyone been doing?
VardaValar1: Who is present? Please say Aye
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: Aye
VardaValar1: Hi Phar. This does not bode well. : )
FinduilasV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Finduilas : )
FinduilasV: Aiya all :-)
ArPharazonV: Burning Crusade taking up everyone's time? ;-)
VardaValar1: I haven't upgraded AIM yet. Has anyone else done so?
Star of Phaet: Aye, sorry, chatting in other windows as well
VardaValar1: I'd be in trouble without my blinky orange warnings, Gilraen. : )
FinduilasV: not yet, Phara, but i will go there soon, i need a lot of money for my epic quest ;-)
VardaValar1: Outland is great for money making
FinduilasV: so i heard
ArPharazonV: I haven't upgraded yet.. well, I did upgrade in the beginning, then saw the new version took up way too much memory
ArPharazonV: and then I switched back to the old one
ArPharazonV: so I could still have AIM running while playing WoW ;-)
VardaValar1: oboy - thanks for the warning. I may do some file cleaning first if I switch
VardaValar1: Funny how new programs think progress is to use more memory.
ArPharazonV: so now I'm back to 5.9
VardaValar1: Well, let's get started. Others can scroll or look at the transcript.
ArPharazonV: instead of 6
Star of Phaet: I've got the old one still on this computer. The new one looks shiny, but I haven't heard very much good about it

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: The sweep letters have all gone out.
VardaValar1: Fangorn and Elwing say hi from WoW : )
VardaValar1: Tulkas was just there too
VardaValar1: On the sweep letters, we had a very good response, mostly very fast, and much appreciated. :-)
VardaValar1: At the end of February, I will do drops. Then people need to re-test.
VardaValar1: Aragorn-(V) has been with us many years, but is not using the name and about to be off the internet quite a while for a real life move
VardaValar1: so he asked to be dropped to guild-friend status for now and let someone have the name who would give it good use. [update: he decided to stay, although he will be doing military service for Sweden until June 21]
VardaValar1: He'll be back after re-hooking to the internet.
VardaValar1: He said a special hi to Arathorn and Finarfin.
VardaValar1: We have a new Full Member, Erkenbrand-(V)
VardaValar1: He plays SWG as a guild leader for one guild and flight officer for another on Valcyn server
VardaValar1: He invites Valar folk there to look him up. His email is on the Members page for those interested.
VardaValar1: He is also very interested in the upcoming LotRO and expects to be very busy there.
VardaValar1: His favorite types of characters in LotR are the "right-hand" men, like Eomer, Legolas, and Gimli.
VardaValar1: We also have a new author, Norgen.
Srekal86 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Srekal : )
VardaValar1: Our newest author, Norgen, sent in a movie-based story for now, and hopes to be sending more stories later.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: Tulkas-(Valar) returned to us after being out to sea a long time, being shipwrecked on a Cuban island, and detained a long time.
ArPharazonV: shipwrecked, you say?
VardaValar1: If you'd like to read the news write-up on a Canadian site it's at
ArPharazonV: you don't hear that often these days
VardaValar1: You need to listen to more sailors. : )
VardaValar1: The story is a little old, leaves out the end.
VardaValar1: Tulkas and all of them are back home now.
VardaValar1: Tulkas is once again playing WoW Lothar and looking for a new ship of his own.
VardaValar1: I recommend the news story, as he's too modest to tell a lot of what he did in person.
VardaValar1: It's three pages long, so if you all disappear I'll know where you went. ;-)
VardaValar1: We have other people working on membership also, but they don't get a mention til they finish. : )
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?
ArPharazonV: wondering... which one is he?
VardaValar1: Who?
VardaValar1: Tulkas?
ArPharazonV: aye
ArPharazonV: the captain?
VardaValar1: Sorry, Rob Aitchison, the captain.
VardaValar1: I forget you guys mostly don't know him.
VardaValar1: He's one of the Valar Honor, used to be on the Council
ArPharazonV: don't know a lot of real-life names from the Valarguild, in any case :-)
VardaValar1: Helped get the guild really going.
VardaValar1: He's known as a ship captain
FinduilasV: WoW this reads like a movie story or what you know from books
Star of Phaet: Ouch. How long were they detained for over it, do you know Varda?
VardaValar1: Ugluk used to ship with him, Tulkas brought him into Valar by satellite on board an icebreaker. : )
VardaValar1: Fangorn suggested to Tulkas that he write a book and get the option on the movie rights. : )
FinduilasV: give him my gretings and my sincerest respect when you meet him next Varda
VardaValar1: Three weeks
VardaValar1: He was just on Lothar a few minutes ago, but any of you can email him
VardaValar1: His email is on the Members page.
VardaValar1: I'm sure he'd appreciate your good wishes. : )
FinduilasV: There has been a bit scouting going on on jArgent Dawn
VardaValar1: If anyone sees oladys 123 come on, give me a holler. : )
VardaValar1: Excellent. Any interest?
VardaValar1: So far most new members are coming in from the Game Which Cannot Be Named.
FinduilasV: There might be from Samotnywilk , a young student, who seems a natural
VardaValar1: Good luck. Any chance he might come to a meeting?
FinduilasV: I hope he checks out the website and we get talking about him joining the guild again, i told him about the guild and what we are about and he seemed very interested
VardaValar1: Good luck again

VardaValar1: Web News:
VardaValar1: New story by Norgen
VardaValar1: It's movie-verse, but it could also work in book-verse.
VardaValar1: "Haleth, Son of Hama, Warrior of Rohan"
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Welcome back : )
Eonwe Valar: Thanks. Trying to get a certain game running, and it froze my computer.
VardaValar1: I'm using the old version of AIM. Have any of you tried the update?
VardaValar1: ouch
Eonwe Valar: I haven't got around to updating yet.
mordacil: gotta go
Eonwe Valar: Updating AIM that is.
mordacil has left the room.
VardaValar1: One said it takes too much memory
VardaValar1: Namarie Aerandir : )
VardaValar1: belatedly.
ArPharazonV: which AIM are we talking about anyway? 6, right?
ArPharazonV: because that update came like months ago
VardaValar1: I have 5.1
ArPharazonV: ah
VardaValar1: Should I move up?
ArPharazonV: I'm at 5.9, but not sure if you can upgrade without going directly to 6
VardaValar1: Ok, I'll consider clearing files for room.
ArathornValar: I use GAIM so I dont get the update annoyance ;-P
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: That a Google thing?
ArathornValar: 3rd party .. programmers created it
ArPharazonV: it bothers me once every one or two weeks, then I say "no" and "don't bother me again for a week" and then I can wait another week ;-)
ArathornValar: Orodreth first showed me it I think
VardaValar1: okies
Eonwe Valar: I just tell it not to bother me at all, then I can get around to it when I feel like it :}
VardaValar1: So that might be good for people who hate AIM?
VardaValar1: Erkenbrand won't touch it, as a tech support guy.
VardaValar1: He uses MSN
VardaValar1: Sure miss Farmer's Bridge program
ArathornValar: I like that you can put a pounce on your friends so you know when they change status, or logon.. Im not sure if AIM does that
VardaValar1: yes it does
ArathornValar: ahh
VardaValar1: If they are in the friend list
VardaValar1: Ok, here's one for you guys where you can come back at me too. : )
VardaValar1: It's a take-off on the planned Tolkien topic for tonight
VardaValar1: What has the Valar Guild ever done for you? : )
VardaValar1: Any answers on that one?
VardaValar1: Free chat here.
VardaValar1: oboy
FinduilasV: a lot Varda , a lot :-)
VardaValar1: How about that it gives you a place to come chat every Friday for over ten years?
Eonwe Valar: Given me a place to chat Tolkien :}
VardaValar1: Good. Name one, Fin : )
ArPharazonV: it got me raiding in WoW, because if I never met Menelvagor, I wouldn't have ended up on the server, guild, and raidgroup I am with now ;-)
FinduilasV: It has made me feel welcome, found me friends, got me gaming WoW ...
VardaValar1: So it corrupted Phar... ;-)
FinduilasV: aye and that ;-)
ArPharazonV: yeah, well, some Ainur tend to do that!
VardaValar1: Chat on Sunday. It also gives people who can help correct my goofs. : )
ArPharazonV: yup! the chat on Sunday is always very nice
VardaValar1: How about the Games page, where we give everyone a chance to find everyone else for a trustworthy pleasant fellow gamer or worthy enemy?
FinduilasV: guess in ione sentence, the Valar guild made me feel accepted all around with all my spleens and weeknesses ;-)
VardaValar1: Only if you control them, Fin. ;-)
FinduilasV: and gives room to talk fantasy
VardaValar1: You've done well!
FinduilasV: and helped me with that :P
FinduilasV: :P
FinduilasV: LD
FinduilasV: :D
VardaValar1: People with similar interests - online gaming and fantasy and knightly behavior
ArPharazonV: the Valarguild has shown me that there are still people with honor and wisdom on this planet :-)
VardaValar1: All over this planet. : )
VardaValar1: I have greatly enjoyed meeting people from all over the world and finding them such a pleasure.
VardaValar1: One young member told us it helped him learn and practice social graces that carried over outside the game and helped him.
ArathornValar: I like that it's less filling and tastes great =) .. no wait.. :-\
VardaValar1: lol
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien and Gaming: Two great tastes that taste great together :}
Arwen V1: :-)
VardaValar1: With a companionship filling. : )
VardaValar1: Holds it together. : )
Arwen V1: Hey Arathorn.. have a mic now :-)
VardaValar1: Arwen, you have a mic?
Arwen V1: I do now =P
VardaValar1: Woohoo!
ArathornValar: heh .. good I can quest with you again since typing is too difficult =)
VardaValar1: Going to be on Ventrilo?
VardaValar1: Don't type too much in here with that carpal tunnel Arathorn : )
ArathornValar: yeah im on disability right now .. carpal tunnel.. may have to have surgery :-\
VardaValar1: ugh
Arwen V1: I dont know if i can connect to vent, but I can connect to teamspeak :-)
ArathornValar: im using my other hand :-P
ArPharazonV: oh, btw, before I forget, a guild/raidmember in the community I'm made a chart of attunements and quests required for instances and keys in the Burning Crusade, all quite interactive, and I believe she's still working on it
ArPharazonV: let me find the link
ArathornValar: TS is good.. I have servers for both :-P
VardaValar1: The directions for our ventrilo are on the Forum, and it's free to use Alatar's for Valar
Eonwe Valar: So, those of you sitting quietly in the back trying not to be noticed... what's the Valar Guild done for you? :}
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Menelvagor : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya Menel
VardaValar1: We were on what has the Valar Guild done for you?
Menelvagor Valar: made me play Diablo 1.
VardaValar1: Eat your time...
VardaValar1: There you go. : )
Eonwe Valar: Gave me a web page I "have" to work on... :}
Menelvagor Valar: and subsequently everything that's Blizzard made.
VardaValar1: A number of gamers would have quit D1 if they had not run into us way back when.
VardaValar1: Blizzard should love us. ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: I would never have bought D1 if it had not been for the Valar Guild :-)
FinduilasV: Aiya Menelvagor :-)
VardaValar1: What did we do that brought you in?
Eonwe Valar: The chances of me playing Diablo are quite low as well if not for the Valar Guild... Aul� to be specific :}
Menelvagor Valar: When I found the old Yahoo DB, I mailed Varda, and in her reply said that the Valar Guild was playing D1 as part of its operations :-)
VardaValar1: We were very active in D1 then. : )
Eonwe Valar: So what got you here if it wasn't D1? :}
VardaValar1: The old Forum
Menelvagor Valar: Tolkien.
Menelvagor Valar: Did a general Tolkien search on the old Yahoo search engine.
Menelvagor Valar: it came up with the Discussion Board.
Menelvagor Valar: and from that, went to "Founder's Homepage"
Menelvagor Valar: and liked the site :-)
VardaValar1: yay
Menelvagor Valar: so I mailed the Founder, which happened to be Varda.
VardaValar1: I wonder - was that Aule's old Valar page?
VardaValar1: no, I'm founder on the DB
VardaValar1: so you went straight to the Encyc
Menelvagor Valar: basically.
Menelvagor Valar: I can only remember the Valar Guild page on
VardaValar1: used to be one on flexnet
Menelvagor Valar: right, that one.
Menelvagor Valar: I mailed with you a lot on that one :-)
VardaValar1: Now it points to the new area, better server
Eonwe Valar: our original front page used to be at
VardaValar1: aye, Eonwe
VardaValar1: Eru let it lapse and another guild got it.
VardaValar1: Have to be quick like a bunny : )
Menelvagor Valar: I like the new one, so not worried :-)
VardaValar1: : )
VardaValar1: So would you guys consider the Tolkien Site a benefit of the Valar Guild?
FinduilasV: very much so , yes
Menelvagor Valar: definitely.
ArPharazonV: yes, quite
Menelvagor Valar: especially the Encyc :-)
Menelvagor Valar: and the news!
ArPharazonV: including the Encyc, the forum, the gaming page, and lots more
Menelvagor Valar: although I don't browse the news site too often I must admit.
Menelvagor Valar: then again, I generally hear all the news at the meeting :-)
VardaValar1: That's because so many won't read the News. So we repeat it here
VardaValar1: and add to it.
VardaValar1: The News is very helpful to the many who don't make the meetings. And for hearing things quickly.
Menelvagor Valar: uh-huh
Menelvagor Valar: I use it to see what happened when I missed it a meeting.
VardaValar1: I have a request from the Tolkien site
Menelvagor Valar: but that doesn't happen all that often :-)
VardaValar1: Please make sure your character is represented
VardaValar1: Aye, Menel, which is much appreciated!
Menelvagor Valar: uhm... that one be hard for me :-)
Menelvagor Valar: not much to say really.
VardaValar1: A short piece is good too.
Eonwe Valar: I check the News daily for the latest up-to-date Valar Guild information :}
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: You might want to do a story or poem
Menelvagor Valar: I have to finish "The Music" first :-)
VardaValar1: Extrapolate on what you do know
VardaValar1: ok : )
VardaValar1: Now for the return question...
Menelvagor Valar: I reread my "The creation of Glaurung" a short while back, thought I did a good job there :-)
Eonwe Valar: Plenty to say on Menelvagor. Start with the Sil for the canon info, then dig into HoME for extra info.
VardaValar1: What would you folk like to see the Valar Guild do for you in the upcoming year?
VardaValar1: Aye, Menel! Thanks! Encore!
Menelvagor Valar: you want me to write "The creation of Glaurung" again?
VardaValar1: Article writing is much easier after collecting the info
VardaValar1: Actually a new piece would be nice. : )
Menelvagor Valar: unfortunately, I don't have HoME :-(
Menelvagor Valar: well, encore is french for again... so I figured...
VardaValar1: See your local used book store.
Menelvagor Valar: Pharzie, have you ever seen a used book store around here?
VardaValar1: In stage terms, it is a repeat which is often the same performer(s) doing something a little different.
Menelvagor Valar: I know :-)
ArPharazonV: around where? :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I just wanted to be a smart ass and take the literal meaning :-D
Menelvagor Valar: in Holland.
VardaValar1: See your local phone book or online used book store.
Menelvagor Valar: so anywhere.
VardaValar1: We have some listed around here on the Links page.
Menelvagor Valar: well...
ArPharazonV: not that I can think of
VardaValar1: You can add your favorites if you send me the URL : )
Arwen V1 has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: if I had the money to buy stuff, I would not have quit smoking.
ArPharazonV: I just ordered them at De Kler, and they brought them in from England
ArPharazonV: brandnew!
VardaValar1: ok, now what would you like to see from the Valar Guild for the coming year?
VardaValar1: Nice, Phar : )
Menelvagor Valar: I'd rather like to know what I can do for the Guild :-)
VardaValar1: Library is cheap
VardaValar1: That is kind of the same thing when you think about it.
Menelvagor Valar: no versions of HoME around there, I can guarantee that.
VardaValar1: Show up for guild functions and participate, such as you folks are doing at this chat.
Menelvagor Valar: prolly no HoME around in any bookstore here.
VardaValar1: Add to the Tolkien Site any way you can.
Menelvagor Valar: I always do that :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I just ought to do more :-)
MrMonkey2002Blah: SUPABOWL
MrMonkey2002Blah: WOOO
MrMonkey2002Blah has left the room.
ArPharazonV: right..
VardaValar1: Keep info updated on the Games and Members pages
Eonwe Valar: Be active in the Valar Guild, scout for new members who will be active in the Valar Guild, put our resources, such as the Forum, the Games Page, and the Tolkien Site, to use.
VardaValar1: Show up for Valar gaming
VardaValar1: Scout and test
VardaValar1: Use what we have, aye!
Eonwe Valar: Add to our resources.
Menelvagor Valar: Valar gaming is a bit of an impossibility... but the rest I try to do. Just doesn't feel like enough.
VardaValar1: If you can see a way to improve, add, or help, jump in.
Menelvagor Valar: if I can, you know I will :-)
VardaValar1: Tolkien-onlies are expected to turn in a new item for the Tolkien site every year, at least one.
VardaValar1: Maybe we should pick on the Full Members to do that too?
VardaValar1: Not as a requirement for that year's membership, but we could use the input.
Eonwe Valar: I would hope that members would want to contribute in some fashion without the requirement.
VardaValar1: One would hope, aye.
Menelvagor Valar: well... the thing with mandatory stuff is that it is not always the high quality we represent in the Encyc.
VardaValar1: So, we can all plan on putting in a game review, book review, article, poem, story, art, humor, or whatnot for 2007.
Eonwe Valar: All of our members have to at least have a copy of LotR on their shelf, or access to one, since they've read it. There's plenty in LotR that could be added to our Encyclopedia.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, the Games Page could always use Game Reviews by someone besides me :}
Eonwe Valar: We've got all of about 3 reviews I didn't write right now :}
VardaValar1: The stuff is mandatory for TV members.
VardaValar1: ouch
Menelvagor Valar: well... the TV members really want to do that.
VardaValar1: Anyone here ever play WoW? Burning Crusades? Have a comment to email to Eonwe?
Menelvagor Valar: oooh
VardaValar1: The TV members would really like to read Tolkien. ; )
Eonwe Valar: No one here has played Burning Crusade :}
Menelvagor Valar: I can write a review on TBC - Drenei Shaman :-)
Eonwe Valar: (Draenei :})
VardaValar1: Dranei? : )
VardaValar1: What is the singular anyway?
Menelvagor Valar: Draenei :-)
Eonwe Valar: Draenei is singular.
VardaValar1: Drano, I remember.
VardaValar1: What is plural?
Eonwe Valar: and plural
ArPharazonV: it's like... sheep?
Eonwe Valar: Essentially.
VardaValar1: Sounds like.
Menelvagor Valar: Blizz uses Draenei for singular and plural :P
VardaValar1: There you go. More for the review. ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: but yeah, I've got a 35 shaman now, so I could do some :-)
VardaValar1: You can always update it later.
Menelvagor Valar: but first, The Music :-)

VardaValar1: Gaming News:
VardaValar1: We all played WoW and whoever can jumped into Burning Crusades
Eonwe Valar: Out of curiosity, everyone knows how to find the Games Page and Navigate through it, right?
VardaValar1: Don't forget to use versions of your guild name for your new characters!
Menelvagor Valar: whoops.
Menelvagor Valar: my new character is called anar�r�.
VardaValar1: and invite your new characters into the channel by typing /join Valar
VardaValar1: I would need a new keyboard to WoWmail that one.
Menelvagor Valar: Anar�r� m� Arin in full (for RP).
FinduilasV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Anyone who needs to bow out for the Superbowl probably has
VardaValar1: Poor Fin is having some trouble with our chat
VardaValar1: and crash
VardaValar1: I wonder if upgrading would help any. : (
VardaValar1: Ok, and most of us have made blood elves and/or draenei?
FinduilasV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Welcome back
FinduilasV: thanks phew :-)
VardaValar1: : )
Menelvagor Valar: I have a lvl 1 Blood Elf Paladin :P
VardaValar1: We need more Uldaman invites and Lothar invites. Fangorn and I have been trying to help with that, and /Valar channel is very helpful.
Menelvagor Valar: been focusing solely on the Shaman.
Menelvagor Valar: even the Priest has not gotten above 61 :P
VardaValar1: I have a blood elf paladin and blood elf warlock
FinduilasV: I realised ;-)
ArPharazonV: 21 shammy
FinduilasV: 12 shammy but then i focused on the pala ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: 35, but didn't play WoW for a week.
VardaValar1: These new characters are very helpful in scouting by the way.
Menelvagor Valar: I got to 30 within 10 days.
Menelvagor Valar: not really.
FinduilasV: ooh i got sixty :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Azeroth is all but abandoned.
VardaValar1: They are for me anyway : )
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't seem all that abaonded to me.
Menelvagor Valar: not everyone has a lvl 60 char to run in Outland with,
Eonwe Valar: Lothar must be luckier than your server.
ArPharazonV: Ironforge has never been this empty, I can guarantee you that :-)
FinduilasV: it has become very difficult to get groups together for high level instances as everybody has already some sixty plusses flying around
Menelvagor Valar: It's been a while since I had lag in Ironforge, but there were usually a few hundred people there any time of day.
Menelvagor Valar: now if it's close to a hundred, it'd be much.
Menelvagor Valar: if people are not in Outland, they are usually in Stormwind.
FinduilasV: aye it was full tonight .. had an awful lag there
Menelvagor Valar: flying being the operative word there.
Menelvagor Valar: lvl 70 flying mounts.
Menelvagor Valar: quite a few people have that already.
FinduilasV: /me nods
Menelvagor Valar: or the 67 (or 68) fight form for droods.
VardaValar1: Fun thing to aim for. : )
ArPharazonV: I've still got 2 alts in the capitals as bank and AH-persons, 1 in Ironforge and 1 in Stormwind
Menelvagor Valar: Can't use Flying Mounts in Azeroth or Kalimdor.
ArPharazonV: and if my druid needs his new 60+ abilities he ports to moonglade, flies to Darnassus, gets his new stuff and hearthstones back to Outland ;-)
VardaValar1: Maybe we should tell the guild related stuff going on at our servers now
VardaValar1: Then go play the game after the meeting. : )
ArPharazonV: oh, I posted this link earlier in the meeting, but it fits better here
VardaValar1: go ahead
VardaValar1: attunement comic?
ArPharazonV: for those of you who play Burning Crusade and want to know all the quests and attunements
Menelvagor Valar: Pharzie, Shamans have a 15 minute cooldown on Hearthstone :-D
VardaValar1: 15 minute!
ArPharazonV: not a comic, no, that just seems to be the name of the server :-)
Menelvagor Valar: It's called Astral Recall.
ArPharazonV: oh, I get it
Menelvagor Valar: when I quest, I can pretty much go, oh, gotta deliver this, be right back.
ArPharazonV: the attunement-thing is not a comic, but it's made by a member of our raidcommunity who also writes a comic
Menelvagor Valar: HS, come back, and once next quest is done, repeat.
ArPharazonV: and it's on that server that she created the attunement chart
Menelvagor Valar: your comm Pharzie, we ain't in it :-)
FinduilasV: very useful that .. even though i am just on the normal attunements hehe
ArPharazonV: you used to be, Menel!
ArPharazonV: though you weren't around to meet this one
FinduilasV: does something like this exist for the normel WoW ones?
VardaValar1: That's well done!
ArPharazonV: it is, and quite useful
VardaValar1: What is the name of the person to credit?
ArPharazonV: we know her as Syliel, which is the name she wrote in the lowerright corner
Menelvagor Valar: Arcatraz?
ArPharazonV: yes, Arcatraz :-)
VardaValar1: She did the interactivity. I see it now on the right
ArPharazonV: yes
VardaValar1: Info and original chart from Mose, Heel, Teza, and Kamikazeelf.
ArPharazonV: the chart she got it from has been circling around our AD-guild's forum for a bit, and she decided to make it a bit more userfriendly
VardaValar1: Good teamwork. : )
VardaValar1: Valar needs to be doing that sort of teamwork too.
VardaValar1: Nice job!
VardaValar1: Ok, do we have a WoW Euro report?
VardaValar1: for Valar?
VardaValar1: Who did you see anyway? Galadriel ever make contact?
FinduilasV: I never hear of her
FinduilasV: but there is a report yes [apologies here to Finduilas for not having seen this during the chat. Luckily she had the good sense to do a gently whispered reminder so we did not lose the report.]
Menelvagor Valar: I did send her a mail, but never got a reply.
VardaValar1: She's a he, grandfathered into the name from the earliest days of the guild.
VardaValar1: Thanks for trying, Menel.
Menelvagor Valar: oh right, sorry :-)
VardaValar1: It is confusing.
Menelvagor Valar: well, I am used to it in WoW.
Menelvagor Valar: but when we talk about Guild Members, it's highly improbable.
Menelvagor Valar: near to impossible :-)
ArathornValar: wow 92 yard return for td by Chic o.O
VardaValar1: Thanks Ara : )
VardaValar1: WoW Lothar report, Eonwe?
FinduilasV: My wee hunteress, Failivrin had the rare pleasure to hunt Dark Iron Dwarves in Dun Modr with the beforemention Shammy of Menelvagor, Anarore
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: This week, Eonw�, Beline, Varda, Fangorn, and Elwing fought in Stromgarde and the Ruins of Strahnbrad and Alterac.
Eonwe Valar: We killed a Syndicate boss who sent out a hit on the current leader of Southshore, gathered books,
Eonwe Valar: recovered stolen crystals for a Draenei new to Southshore, killed Warmongers, gathered Stromgrade badges, and got the items out of the Tower of Arathor.
Eonwe Valar: *Beline = Draxcil, he came with his Druid Fellene, not his Paladin Beline.
Eonwe Valar: Believe it or not, those were random names :}
Eonwe Valar: Thus ends my report.
VardaValar1: Thanks Eonwe : )
FinduilasV: can i slip in the rest of mine?
VardaValar1: Fire away
VardaValar1: Fin, go ahead.
FinduilasV: IJust a quick mention of escorting Valandils 35 mage Caradhron to Feathermoon strong hold
VardaValar1: And thanks to Eonwe. : )
FinduilasV: Failivrins Visit to Dun Modr with Anarore went very well
FinduilasV: but we still need to get Beregar
FinduilasV: done :-)
VardaValar1: Thank you, Finduilas : )
VardaValar1: Moving on to

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: What did the Valar do for Middle-earth? : )
Menelvagor Valar: I'll help you with that one later Findu, just ask me :-)
VardaValar1: I've heard people who read only LotR say that the Valar did nothing to help.
Menelvagor Valar: meh, they did not read the appendices.
VardaValar1: So how do we answer that one? Feel free to start with the Music if you like, Menel. ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: Gandalf. Nr 1 help from the Valar.
VardaValar1: Some editions have the Appendix as a separate book. Not good.
Menelvagor Valar: or the most direct anyways.
Menelvagor Valar: very bad, aye.
Menelvagor Valar: Faramir's dreams could have been help from the Valar.
VardaValar1: True
VardaValar1: Irmo maybe
VardaValar1: He also was closely associated with Gandalf, who as Olorin gave visions and encouragement.
VardaValar1: Gandalf said Bilbo was "meant to have the Ring" and therefore Frodo. But it was not Gandalf who did that.
VardaValar1: A star appeared through the reek in Mordor to give the two hobbits hope.
ArPharazonV: all of the company arrived at Rivendell just in time for the council, without preparation as far as they knew
VardaValar1: Tom said the hobbits were fortunate that he happened to be in the area on his last lily trip. Perhaps Valar-directed?
VardaValar1: Aye, the Council of Elrond was not called by Elrond, and the Fellowship wasn't really made by his choice.
Menelvagor Valar: I doubt the Valar had anything to do with Tom.
ArPharazonV: depends on what Tom was ;-)
VardaValar1: But perhaps the timing.
VardaValar1: when and where the Hobbits showed up.
VardaValar1: They "just happened" to show up just right for his help, the way the Fellowship "just happened" to come to Rivendell at the same time.
VardaValar1: The Eagles' coming.
Sarujil has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: But those things are not necessarily Valar induced.
Menelvagor Valar: those things may have had something to do with the Music.
Menelvagor Valar: Not intended help from the Valar.
VardaValar1: Right. The Valar would be behind the scenes and implied.
ArPharazonV: which was Valar-induced ;-)
VardaValar1: We have to hunt for it.
VardaValar1: The Music was sung by Valar
VardaValar1: Aiya Ancalagon. : )
VardaValar1: We are on what did the Valar do for Middle-earth? : )
Menelvagor Valar: Ar, that was before the Valar, or Ainur rather had absolutely no knowledge of.
Menelvagor Valar: they didn't know their music would be turned into a real world, where their music was to be its history.
VardaValar1: Eru set up the theme. The Valar added to it and knew their part of it.
VardaValar1: Menel, what else do you think the Valar might have affected?
Menelvagor Valar: durectly or indirectly?
ArathornValar: 7-7
VardaValar1: Any kind of way. Do you think they were ignoring Middle-earth during the War of the Ring?
Menelvagor Valar: And as for the Music is concerned, the Ainur knew their part of it, but not the details.
VardaValar1: The Valar watched and listened to Middle-earth.
Menelvagor Valar: you can't credit someone for doing something that they did not know in advance.
Menelvagor Valar: That mostly.
Eonwe Valar: Namo understood all parts of the Music not kept from him by Eru.
VardaValar1: ok, so you say the Valar did nothing directly?
Menelvagor Valar: but since the Bending of the World, the Valar did little to aid Middle Earth.
Menelvagor Valar: Mostly indirectly.
ArathornValar: (correction 7-6.. muffed the snap o.O)
VardaValar1: They are known to have gone into Middle-earth.
Menelvagor Valar: Faramir's visions were indirectly.
Menelvagor Valar: Gandalf and the other wizards was their most direct aid.
VardaValar1: So you mean by directly that they walked over and stepped on Orcs would be the direct aid?
Menelvagor Valar: that 4 out of 5 wizards "muffed it" to use Arathorn's words, was not their fault.
VardaValar1: They were training people to handle their world.
Eonwe Valar: One of the stories in HoME implies that Glorfindel was sent back to Middle-Earth by the Valar for a purpose.
VardaValar1: hehe Menel
Eonwe Valar: *sent back in the Second Age.
Eonwe Valar: The Istari were sent in the Third Age.
VardaValar1: Ok, Menel. Would you be able to list some indirect influences by the Valar?
Menelvagor Valar: well... a reason to say for the "not helping idea" is that the Valar let Sauron escape with a "bugger... oh well" attitude.
ArPharazonV: one of the stories in HoME also implies that the Blue Wizards didn't "muff it" but that they went East to delay and control the Men of the East, and so indeed make a difference in the War of the Ring
ArPharazonV: by making sure the good guys weren't overrun by Easterlings :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Phar.
Menelvagor Valar: If you don't add happenstances such as being somewhere on the right time, precious few, which I can't remember to be honest.
Eonwe Valar: Faramir's dreams,.. sounds like Irmo's work.
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar
Menelvagor Valar: well, rumor also says that the Blue Wizards became entangled in Sauron's web and became his thralls.
Eonwe Valar: Elrond says "called you were, though I did not call you"... implies someone brought them together.
VardaValar1: Not thralls, but may have set up separate cults of their own.
Eonwe Valar: For a brief moment, a star can be seen in the sky by Frodo and Sam while they're in Mordor to inspire them to carry on.
Menelvagor Valar: well, anything that did not cooperate with Sauron's plans could be counted as forestalling him :P
Menelvagor Valar: of those that came to Rivendell for the Council of Elrond, Boromir's arrival alone was not based on happenstance.
Menelvagor Valar: Gimli was because of the messenger from Mordor.
Menelvagor Valar: Legolas because of Gollum's escape.
Menelvagor Valar: The Hobbits due to their flight from the Wraiths, same for Aragorn.
Eonwe Valar: If Boromir's was not happenstance,. how was anyone else' coming.
Menelvagor Valar: Boromir came based on Faramir's visions.
Menelvagor Valar: the only happenstance there was that it was at the right time.
Eonwe Valar: Sounds to me like all of them had something to do with the Ring.
Eonwe Valar: The Dwarves were questioned about the Ring, Gollum had information on the Ring,...
Eonwe Valar: Frodo had the Ring...
VardaValar1: The Hobbits and Aragorn were guided by Gandalf too.
Menelvagor Valar: well... you can hardly say the Valar controlled events through an item so utterly evil, would you?
Eonwe Valar: You can say they guided events such that something could be done about an item so utterly evil.
VardaValar1: They worked against the Ring and Sauron.
Menelvagor Valar: but those events had already been set by The Music.
Eonwe Valar: No, Man was set free from the Music.
Menelvagor Valar: but Dwarf and Elf were not.
Menelvagor Valar: sorry, Dwarves were outside, as creations of Aule.
Eonwe Valar: so Man makes a very unpredictable mix in whatever he gets involved with.
ArPharazonV: which would explain why the Valar seemingly put a bit more effort in getting Boromir there :-)
Eonwe Valar: I would say Dwarves were part of Aul�'s theme in the Music.
Menelvagor Valar: how about Hobbit?
Eonwe Valar: Hobbit is a branch of man, just as are Druidain.
Eonwe Valar: *Druedain
VardaValar1: Hobbits are Man variants, but were a special study of Gandalf's, who did not know they had the Ring. The Valar knew.
Menelvagor Valar: then could it be that the Valar" orchestrated Gollum's escape to get Legolas to Rivendell?
Eonwe Valar: Gandalf suspected once he learned the truth about Bilbo's obtaining the Ring, but did not act on it until after the Birthday party.
Menelvagor Valar: later even.
VardaValar1: More like they had an idea when things would happen. They could then help or hinder Legolas' ride to Rivendell to make it come in time.
Menelvagor Valar: it was in May the next year he truly acted.
Menelvagor Valar: Then, how much of a role did The Music play in all events?
Menelvagor Valar: was The Music the entire history of Arda, or did it leave room for deviation?
VardaValar1: It was general history.
Menelvagor Valar: but what is general history?
VardaValar1: Plenty of deviation room. The Ring could have made it back to Sauron, as a real possibility.
Menelvagor Valar: doesn't that mean that the War of the Ring could not be lost?
VardaValar1: Read the description of the Music and you get an idea.
Menelvagor Valar: since that IS general history in The Music.
VardaValar1: No, it could be lost.
FinduilasV: But Menel , you yourself have said rthat the Music comes from the Valar , well the ainur and through rthem from Eru
VardaValar1: Some things could go more than one way, especially where Men were concerned.
Menelvagor Valar: So you would say that the parts where Melkor's discord were strongest, gaps can be found in the melodies of the Valar?
FinduilasV: and as it was already predestined throught the Music or precreated, by them , they Did have some influence in everything , ergo in the war of the ring
VardaValar1: The Discord is part of the Music.
Eonwe Valar: Some things had many paths, aye. For example, the Doom of the Noldor wasn't certain until F�anor rejected the use of his Silmarilli to heal the Two Trees.
VardaValar1: Eventually, Sauron's influence would be lifted even if the WotR were lost. But it would be better if the Free Peoples prevented it with a little guidance.
Menelvagor Valar: So... in essence, the Discord opens the option to new, darker paths?
FinduilasV: Because the Children of Illuvatar had some freedom and are no mechanicals
VardaValar1: Freedom of Choice is given by the Valar.
VardaValar1: Melkor wanted to cut down choice to just his.
Eonwe Valar: The most prominent parts of the Discord were taken into the Third Theme
Menelvagor Valar: Aye, the Third Age.
Eonwe Valar: The Third Theme is not necessarily the Third Age. Men came in the Third Theme, but appeared in the First Age.
Menelvagor Valar: but my entire point here is whether the Valar can be accredited to certain events which were preset, even if it was them.
ArPharazonV: the three themes don't necessarily have to follow up on each other chronologically, no?
VardaValar1: The Valar did not cease to exist.
VardaValar1: Right, Phar!
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: they can easily overlap
VardaValar1: Aiya Glorfindel
Eonwe Valar: If I make an appointment with someone for 2pm tomorrow, and I show up, do I not get accreditted for having shown up?
Menelvagor Valar: that makes it a lot harder to know which is what :-)
Glorfindel VG: Hello :-)
FinduilasV: it seems to me that the Third Theme were rthe Men , now?
FinduilasV: no
FinduilasV: ?
VardaValar1: We're on what did the Valar do for Middle-earth, and it turned into did they do anything for M-e. : )
Eonwe Valar: There were some things included in the Third Theme, one of which was Man.
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe, what I am trying to point out is not the showing up of an appointment, but the making of the appointment for the appointment.
FinduilasV: aiya Glorfindel
Menelvagor Valar: which could then be directed backwards endlessly.
Menelvagor Valar: If the Valar "made" the changes in events during The Music, they didn't do "anything" during the actual events, did they?
Menelvagor Valar: and if you would say that differently...
Menelvagor Valar: it would come down to the Valar creating the possibility for those event changes in The Music.
Menelvagor Valar: that would mean exactly the same, but that they did what they wanted to do in 2 stages.
FinduilasV: they showed care in everything and even while Melkors influence grew in Middlearth Ulmo kept some pwer
Menelvagor Valar: and rather badly if I may say so.
FinduilasV: that little bit was not nothing
FinduilasV: yes it had to fade but it was there
Menelvagor Valar: what do you mean Findu?
FinduilasV: Ulmos Power ran strong in the river Sirion during the First Age
VardaValar1: Ulmo never abandoned Middle-earth. He remained in the waters.
Menelvagor Valar: True, but his power diminished everywhere else on land in the Second Age.
Eonwe Valar: "But when the Valar entered into Ea they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark."
VardaValar1: Other Valar also slipped over to Middle-earth.
VardaValar1: Maiar seem to have been all around.
FinduilasV: Aye, indeed, but Ulmo himself sais that his power fades , was it to Huor?
VardaValar1: Maiar work with particular Valar
Menelvagor Valar: So... in the end, The Music can be said to be "possible general history"?
Menelvagor Valar: Tuor.
FinduilasV: Tuor
Menelvagor Valar: in Nevrast if I remember correctly.
FinduilasV: aye he had the weapons left there
Menelvagor Valar: just a sword and hauberk and shield with an image of a swan on it.
Eonwe Valar: "For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar percieved that the World had...
Menelvagor Valar: also a helm I think, with swan wings.
Eonwe Valar: been but forshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. "
Menelvagor Valar: then it can indeed be said that the Valar acted directly and in some ways changed events towards a higher goal.
Menelvagor Valar: however, still those are indirect, as one could never explain how.
VardaValar1: I need to let someone else use this comp for homework.
VardaValar1: Namarie all.
Menelvagor Valar: the star, Faramir and Gandalf would then become direct.
FinduilasV: namrie
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie Varda.
VardaValar1 has left the room.
FinduilasV: but they did intervene , Menel, as you see whether direct or indirect
Menelvagor Valar: well, Eonwe's quote just disproved my concerns regarding the Music, so I can't say otherwise anymore :-)
Eonwe Valar: The point being that even after the Breaking, they were actively governing Arda.
FinduilasV: it was left to different persons how to deal with that intervention
Eonwe Valar: Well, actively governing Ea to raise it to the full scale.
Eonwe Valar: The Valar each acted upon their knowledge of the Music, and worked together in many things as well.
Menelvagor Valar: Then Narya the Red being given to Gandalf by Cirdan could have been a decision directed by the Valar as well :-D
FinduilasV: Cirdan said to Gandalf : *You have more need of it *
Eonwe Valar: Personally, I begin to suspect that The Themes of the Valar mostly set up the physical and spiritual dimensions of Ea, as well as those things in which their thoughts led them, while the Third Theme, provided by Eru alone,..
FinduilasV: or some such
Eonwe Valar: was what determined History.
Menelvagor Valar: wasn't the Music incomplete?
Eonwe Valar: Incomplete in what way?
FinduilasV: well the endi was not known
Eonwe Valar: It ended when Eru made it end. Tends to make me call it Complete :}
FinduilasV: hehe true :-)
Menelvagor Valar: well... maybe there was a fourth Theme... a Theme that could only be played by history, maybe the Fourth Theme was E� itself?
Eonwe Valar: There was only 3 Themes, Menel.
Eonwe Valar: *were
Menelvagor Valar: that's what the story says.
Eonwe Valar: So,... we're calling Tolkien a liar about his work now?
Menelvagor Valar: We have discussed a lot of things over the years which were not explained in the Books.
Menelvagor Valar: no, but he never said that there were 3 themes and only 3 themes, did he?
Eonwe Valar: In all versions of the Ainulindall�, he's stuck to 3 Themes, even when the details of the story slightly vary.
Menelvagor Valar: then I withdraw my words.
ArPharazonV: did he ever explicitly say that there were no more than 3 themes? ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: I've only read one, and based on that I make my assumptions.
Menelvagor Valar: and although I am not often wrong in those, I can be wrong :-)
FinduilasV: Three themes , Menel
Eonwe Valar: Well, when it says Eru creates the Third Theme, the Valar didn't make any theme in the process, and then Eru made everything stop...
Menelvagor Valar: Pharzie, if we go down that lane everything becomes possible and we would deviate from Tolkien so greatly we might as well quit
Menelvagor Valar: I will definitely have to reread the Sil.
Eonwe Valar: When Eru says stop singing, late-coming singers don't count./
Menelvagor Valar: well...
Menelvagor Valar: if the Music was a foretelling, would it not mean that the Singing continued in E�, albeit slower and in more detail?
Menelvagor Valar: (and thus more room for governing)
Menelvagor Valar: sorry, not continued, but started anew
Eonwe Valar: "In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Iluvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved.
Eonwe Valar: (change . to ,)
Eonwe Valar: Iluvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raise up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss,
Eonwe Valar: higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Iluvatar, the Music ceased."
Eonwe Valar: The Music set the stage, the Valar became the Rulers of Arda, to make what they'd sung happen, and to prepare for those things which Eru had introduced in the Third Theme.
ArPharazonV: one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament... one chord in the Music could last an eternity on Arda, no?
Eonwe Valar: Why would you make the end last an eternity?
ArPharazonV: depends on what kind of end it is, no? :-)
Menelvagor Valar: That last note could have been Dagor Dagorad, could it not?
Eonwe Valar: In many songs, the last chord is left to fade, but it sounds to me here like it played and that was it.
FinduilasV: cease does mean stop i think
Eonwe Valar: Dagor Dagorlad would be the Last Battle, so it would coincide roughly with that point in time, yes.
Eonwe Valar: Last time I looked, "cease" meant "stop" :}
ArPharazonV: perhaps, but it could also include a time before the Last Battle, or after... there was also something about the trees being rekindled and the Silmarilli being broken, right?
Eonwe Valar: cease-to stop, especially formally or often permanently.
Eonwe Valar: I believe those things are mentioned in HoME, Phar.
FinduilasV: OOh yes i think i remember something like that
Menelvagor Valar: Well, part of the Legend of Dagor Dagorad says that it ends with the World being broken and then made anew.
Eonwe Valar: The Sil mainly speaks of a New Theme.
ArPharazonV: was that before the last battle, after, or was it an alternative end that just didn't make the final cut?
Menelvagor Valar: that would mean that the Word being broken -> Lower than the abyss and being made anew -> Higher than the firmament.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, I think that's Dagor Dagorath. Dagorlad is the Battle Plain before the gates of Mordor.
Eonwe Valar: A direct translation of that chord is probably not necessary :}
ArPharazonV: actually, I was trying to throw in a point originally of that last chord being a fourth theme in itself :-)
ArPharazonV: but that reasoning didn't go very far
Eonwe Valar: It would still count as the Third Theme, Phar :}
FinduilasV: well friends, i think i call it for tonight - somehow my fingers itch
ArPharazonV: why would it? it seemed to have been introduced by Iluvatar as a reaction to the strife accompanying the third theme, and thus bears resemblence to the themes he introduced earlier
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Finduilas!
Eonwe Valar: Take care Finduilas.
Eonwe Valar: Phar, it was not introduced as a reaction to the Third Theme, since the Third Theme already had everything in hand by taking the Discord into itself, making the song sweeter.
Eonwe Valar: Or, as Eru says, showing that even the evil of Morgoth only serves to show the glory of Eru.
FinduilasV: Namarie people
FinduilasV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: so then it was a conclusion to the third theme? a finality?
ArPharazonV: part of it, and yet not?
Eonwe Valar: It was the conclusion to the Music.
Eonwe Valar: It was the final note in the Third Theme.
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth didn't want to stop, and he was getting boring, so Eru put an end to it.
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth's Discord, while having finally obtained unity, was doing nothing new.
Eonwe Valar: In Ea, it wasn't long before Morgoth could do nothing but pervert, corrupt, or destroy the creations of the other Valar.
ArPharazonV: but he did find new ways of doing so...
Eonwe Valar: Examples?
ArPharazonV: well, it was only at the Last Battle that he went out in battle himself, before that he came with a variety of actions to try to pervert, corrupt, destroy...
ArPharazonV: destroying the trees, enslaving Elves, corrupting kings...
Eonwe Valar: that's nothing new.
Eonwe Valar: He'd destroyed mountains, corrupted Maiar...
ArPharazonV: even when Sauron, the last real incarnate evil, was defeated at last, he still got in the heads of mortals without "outside" influence
ArPharazonV: depending on your point of view, one could perceive it as "original"
Menelvagor Valar: Pharzie, that's like re-inventing Electricity and calling it freggeltricity.
Menelvagor Valar: it's just taking something old, and do it again, but then slightly different.
Eonwe Valar: Corrupting sentient beings is only as new as figuring out what they're willing to serve you for.
ArPharazonV: if that is the way you want to look at it, be my guest... I always try to offer perspective, but you have to know when to quit
ArPharazonV: his goal was always the same, the results were often the same, but he found new, different ways of attaining it
Eonwe Valar: If people have a price, they can be bought.
ArPharazonV: which was my point :-)
Eonwe Valar: blackmails,promises of power, deceit... sounds like the toolset he started with :}
Eonwe Valar: I'll grant that breeding Orcs and Humans might've been a new concept.
ArPharazonV: see? there's some new stuff ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I don't recall it happening in the First Age.
ArPharazonV: it was not until the very end that he was down to nothing but engage in battle in a physical form that Eru pulled the plug, so to speak :-)
Eonwe Valar: The question is thoug, whether it was Sauron or Saruman who came up with it. Saruman hadn't fully given over to evil.
ArPharazonV: maybe not, but he was certainly influenced by Morgoth as all evil was
Eonwe Valar: Not fully until around the time he came into contact with Sauron, perhaps.
Eonwe Valar: Sauron was Morgoth's second-in-command and made good use of his master's influence, aye.
Menelvagor Valar: Don't forget that Morgoth never created, but always destroyed or currupted.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Eonwe Valar: Orcs were but a corruption of Elves.
Menelvagor Valar: Orcs - Elves, Dragons - Ents, Charcharoth - Huan.
Eonwe Valar: Trolls-Ents
ArPharazonV: trolls, yes, not dragons :-)
Eonwe Valar: Dragons-some serpent, maybe dinosaurs :}
Menelvagor Valar: right.. sorry there :-)
Menelvagor Valar: well.. could the Dragons have been a corruption of the Eagles?
ArPharazonV: maybe with a hint of eagle too, as he was known to capture and study them
Menelvagor Valar: I mean back then, the Eagles were as large as the Dragons..
ArPharazonV: although he never discovered the secret of their flight for his own personal use
Eonwe Valar: the Winged Dragons may have a coneection to Eagles, aye.
Eonwe Valar: *connection
ArPharazonV: but you also have to remember that the first dragons did not fly, so the dragons were not completely corruptions of the eagles
Menelvagor Valar: true.
Menelvagor Valar: then what are the Dragons corrupted copies off?
Eonwe Valar: Eagles to jump to mind when I think of Dragons, but there are land-based dragons with 4 limbs, and at least with Trolls and Orcs as evidence, Morgoth couldn't completely alter the natural form.
Eonwe Valar: Even if we did not hear of reptiles in the books, we can safely assume they were there.
Eonwe Valar: Reptiles don't stop growing as they age, so the bigger a reptile is, the older it is. Morgoth could certainly use that to his advantage.
ArPharazonV: true enough
Eonwe Valar: When Glaurung first emerged, he was not yet full grown. He must've been huge not full grown, crushing Azaghal. Imagine what Turin faced.
Eonwe Valar: We also know that living in land influenced by Ainur (namely, Aman) has benefits for the inhabitants. This would likely apply to Angband/Utumno as well.
ArPharazonV: the bigger the dragon, the bigger the weak spot on his belly ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe Phar.
Eonwe Valar: Oh, I take that back, we do have references to reptiles in Ea.
Eonwe Valar: The Ring of Barahir.
Eonwe Valar: 2 serpents. So, we know beyond safe assumptions, we know they were there.
ArPharazonV: serpents, yes, but serpents don't tend to have limbs :-)
Eonwe Valar: It shows reptiles though :}
ArPharazonV: but if there were serpents, good bet there were lizards as well
Eonwe Valar: Let me know if you find references to turtles :}
Eonwe Valar: As an added bonus, I'll tell you all to use the Search Engine and type in "Tale of Qorinomi" :}
Eonwe Valar: Well, search program rather :}
Eonwe Valar: Of course, you all already know what you'll see when you do that :}
Eonwe Valar: So, shall we declare the meeting adjourned, or was there any more we can say on these subjects?
Menelvagor Valar: not from me.
Menelvagor Valar: but I can certainly say I will use today's discussion in my article :-)
ArPharazonV: not from me either, I should go to bed soon
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Ok, then we shall declare the meeting adjourned :}
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*