Valar Guild

August 12, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon and Varda

Attending: (8)
    Members: Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Fladrifv, GilraenV, VardaValar1
    Visitor: excelsiorjss (friend, now in LotRO, hasn't yet read LotR)

Meeting begins
    New Full Member: Rumil-(V)
    New Tolkien-only Member: Bohemian Weasel-(TV)
    Gwaihir-(Valar) has a throat infection.
    Grimbold-(V) and Muzgash-(V) have birthdays today!
    New helmsman and website for the Book Reviews page: Arveleg-(V) on googlepages.
    New story by He that Walks Unseen-(TV)
    New art cave for Bohemian Weasel-(TV)
    SC2: new info on the upcoming game
       Lothar: Eonwe, Sauron
       Uldaman: Elwing
       Argent Dawn: Arien, Valandil
    WC3: Ar-Pharazon
    LotRO: new member Rumil from there, we've been having around 8 online at once.
    Fladrifv: what if lord of the rings was in the modern time: would sauron have won?
    Riddle-game. Starts with Ancalagon's riddle on the forum, then we did another batch of riddles, the end results of which may be seen on the Forum LotRO trivia thread. Our meeting chroniclers had to leave before the riddling finished.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Sarujil has entered the room.
AriehnV has entered the room.
AriehnV: Aiya there :-)
Sarujil: hiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya, still in heroic blood furnace but nearly done
AriehnV: oooh getting ahead , eh?
AriehnV: still a bit for Urwendi to go to get to that stage ;-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Fladrifv has entered the room.
Fladrifv: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya all.
Eonwe Valar: Varda is visiting Elwing, so I'll be chairing tonight. We'll begin shortly.
ArPharazonV: still in BF nearly done
ArPharazonV: just last boss to go
Eonwe Valar: To better expedite the meeting, please whisper me any news you would like to add so that I may call on you in the appropriate section.
Eonwe Valar: Putting together news, we'll begin shortly.
AriehnV: Aiya Fladrif :-)
Eonwe Valar: Just in time for the meeting, Fladrif :}
Eonwe Valar: Let's begin.

Eonwe Valar: Elenn Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Varda and Fangorn are visiting Elwing, so you're stuck with me tonight :}
Eonwe Valar: Menelvagor is back from the wedding.
Eonwe Valar: Classes should be starting up in about two weeks for some of us :}
ArPharazonV: allright, final boss down, nether in my pocket... here I am!
Fladrifv: yup
Fladrifv: also here in sweden
ArPharazonV: hm... about 2 weeks, aye... well, I think it's 3 for me
Eonwe Valar: Mine start the 27th of August, so almost exactly 2 weeks for me :}
ArPharazonV: mine starts 3 september, so :-)
Fladrifv: almost exactly do not match ;-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Web news:
Eonwe Valar: Ack, back to Membership.
Eonwe Valar: New full member, Rumil, through LotRO (Too bad some of those guys don't jump on aim and come to a meeting :})
Eonwe Valar: New Tolkien-Only member, Bohemian Weasel-(TV). She's a professional artist, with her own art web site from which she sells her work.
Eonwe Valar: She's allowed us to place her LotR artwork (much of which seems to be based on the movies) on our site for the Tolkien Encyclopedia.
Eonwe Valar: Link to her web page is on the news. Feel free to peruse her site.

Eonwe Valar: Now Web News :} :
Eonwe Valar: Arveleg has taken up the "Book List and Reviews for Tolkien Subjects" section of our Tolkien site.
Eonwe Valar: New Story by He that Walks Unseen-(TV)
Eonwe Valar: "Two Eyes Stare at Mine"
Eonwe Valar: That does it for web news :}
ArPharazonV: can't be about Sauron then!
Eonwe Valar: hehe

Eonwe Valar: Gaming News:
Eonwe Valar: Starcraft 2:
Eonwe Valar: Some Terran Units released.
Eonwe Valar: Now if they'll just reveal some Zerg units :}
Eonwe Valar: WoW: As mentioned last week after the meeting, new WoW expansion announced at Blizzcon: Wrath of the Lich King, not to be confused with Rise of the Witch-King :}
AriehnV: hehehe
AriehnV: i never checked that Arthass ended up as the Lich King
Eonwe Valar: First hero class coming in this expansion: The Death Knight, won't replace a current character.
ArPharazonV: *pictures death knights running around everywhere a few weeks/months after launch*
Eonwe Valar: Lvl 80 new cap, we fight in Northrend, and all that stuff :} Link on the Games Page to the new expansion site if you want to see it all :}
AriehnV: aye watched the trailer
AriehnV: wont be for me :-)
Eonwe Valar: They really made Paladins look bad in that trailer, but I don't want to delve into that in the middle of a meeting :}
ArPharazonV: I might have to delete my lvl 2 priesty for a death knight, but that's allright, I already have another priest
ArPharazonV: you mean the way he *didn't* bubble and hearth the moment he got in trouble?
Eonwe Valar: WoW: Questing Reports:
Eonwe Valar: Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: Sauron and I ventured just we too into Blackrock Depths, my Paladin and his new level 60 Priest.
Eonwe Valar: We continued from where we left off last week, getting the note to take us back to Marshall Windsor, and after him, going after the two bosses he thought should die.
Eonwe Valar: Beyond the bar, to which Sauron brought its mistress ingredients for a love potion, we found the Naga conspiring with the Dark Iron Dwarves.
Eonwe Valar: Dispatching of the Naga Emissary, we continued on past their golems and came into the Hall of the Seven.
Eonwe Valar: We did battle with the Seven so that their souls may be at peace, and once they were at rest we continued onward to deal with Emperor Dagran Thaurissan.
Eonwe Valar: Apparently he finds it funny to keep the chamber before his Throneroom full of hundreds of weak soldiers to annoy visitors :}
Eonwe Valar: After getting the torches, we dealt with the fire giant standing before the doors to his throneroom, then releived the Empreror of his senate and the ambassadors sent to speak with them.
Eonwe Valar: Finally, we relieved the Emperor of his head.
Eonwe Valar: Doing that, we went back to claim an item from near the portal into the Molten Core.
ArPharazonV: how'd Magni's daughter feel about that?
Eonwe Valar: Apparently she wasn't happy about it.
Eonwe Valar: She claims she was actually in love with Thaurissan.
Eonwe Valar: Magni Bronzebeard was also shocked by this revelation.
Eonwe Valar: And thus ends my report.
Eonwe Valar: I'm afraid I have none for Uldaman this week.
Eonwe Valar: Arwen, have you a report for Argent Dawn?
AriehnV: yes i have )
Eonwe Valar: Er, Arien, pardon.
AriehnV: ;-)
AriehnV: Urwendi and Caradhron , my paladin and Valandil's Mage, went hunting in Stranglethorn
AriehnV: After collecting the desired paw from Bhag Thera we took the hypgryph to the Arathi Highlands to pay a visit to stormegarde keep
AriehnV: there we successfully gatered loving memories of the syndicate in form of their badges
ArPharazonV: ooh, my paladin needs to that too I think
AriehnV: during the course of which both of us reachted the next level, Urwendi respectivelly fourty and Caradhron 42
AriehnV: It was late as usual so we had bot to go to our rest for that night but later in the week Caradhron was kind enough to help out in uldaman where i was with a party that had lost a member
AriehnV: he was in time for the last nasty part
AriehnV: alas
AriehnV: in the end one of our guides had to call upon his 70 hunter to defeat the Archithingame that we awoke to life
AriehnV: sorry still cant remember names ;-)
AriehnV: after getting rid of all his lovely clay guards sprung to life and defeating him we then investigated the discs and returned gloriously to ironforge
AriehnV: thus endeth my report :-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Arien :}
Eonwe Valar: I'm afraid I don't have a LotRO report for you all either.
Eonwe Valar: Anyone play anything besides WoW and LotRO this week?
ArPharazonV: more warcraft 3, some of it with friends from my WoW guild
ArPharazonV: we'd arranged it in WoW after a raid and decided to play a few games of warcraft 3, against each other or in custom maps
ArPharazonV: fun was had by all!
ArPharazonV: and that's all I have to report :-)
VardaValar1 has left the room.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya Varda :}
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: About to wrap up gaming :}
AriehnV: aiya Varda :-)
VardaValar1: Just dowloaded AIM for Elwing at her house.
Eonwe Valar: Cool :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, Varda has something for LotRO :}
Eonwe Valar: Your floor, Varda :}
VardaValar1: Hail and well met
Eonwe Valar: I want you all formulating Tolkien topics and whispering them to me while she reports too :}
VardaValar1: We've been running a lot of folk at all levels, 8 at a time often enough
VardaValar1: Irmo has been running some pvp group stuff in the Ettenmoors quite brilliantly
VardaValar1: Most of us stick with questing and do a lot of that in pairs or full fellowships
VardaValar1: We have a new LotRO person, Rumil, who's been running with us for several days before joining
VardaValar1: That's my report
GilraenV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Varda :}
VardaValar1: My pleasure. Aiya Gilraen
GilraenV: Aiya. :-) Apologies for my lateness, all. Gwai's ill, and we have a guest tomorrow so I've been cleaning and didn't see the invite pop up.
VardaValar1: Sorry to hear about Gwaihir. Nothing serious we hope?
Eonwe Valar: Sorry to hear Gwaihir's ill. Hope he gets well soon.
ArPharazonV: take him to a vet, some bird-specialist maybe?
GilraenV: Thank you both. We suspect it's a throat infection, he's going to the doctor tomorrow. :-\
GilraenV: Hahaha
VardaValar1: Tough when ill on a weekend
GilraenV: I'll have to tell him that one, Phara - maybe he'll have better luck with a vet appointment than with one for the doctor ;-)
Eonwe Valar: :}

Eonwe Valar: Ok, we have two potential Tolkien topics tonight. We'll try to do both tonight, depending on how far the first gets us.
Eonwe Valar: We'll go with Fladrif's topic first.
Eonwe Valar: Fladrif, care to introduce your topic?
excelsiorjss has entered the room.
Fladrifv: sure
VardaValar1: Aiya excelsior : )
Fladrifv: To have a fresh view over things this mind experiment
Fladrifv: what if lord of the rings was in the modern time
Fladrifv: would sauron have won
excelsiorjss: indeed
Eonwe Valar: Greetings Excelsiorjss.
Fladrifv: and how would the hobbits survive the yourney
excelsiorjss: and to you
ArPharazonV: bullet proof vests, for one
ArPharazonV: for the hobbits, that is
ArPharazonV: still, if the armies of orcs had guns instead of swords, the Fellowship wouldn't be much better for it
Fladrifv: how would they hide for instance against satalites?
Eonwe Valar: Well, Tolkien seems to think that if his tale happened in modern times, Sauron would've won after a fashion, because instead of destroying the Ring, it would've been used to depose Sauron and the new
Eonwe Valar: Lord of the Rings would've taken Sauron's place.
VardaValar1: They would not have tried to destroy the Ring, but use it as Boromir suggested at the Council.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Varda.
Fladrifv: do we really think the nowaday humans are more stupid ? :-)
ArPharazonV: why? do you consider the age of the wise over in this age?
ArPharazonV: would, as Fladrif put it
AriehnV: yes indeed
ArPharazonV: people be too stupid these days to not use it?
AriehnV: i dont think much of humans these days
ArPharazonV: nor do I, but I try to have some hope :-)
excelsiorjss: heh
VardaValar1: Humans would be the ones giving the Council, and you know what counsel they generally gave on the use of the Ring.
excelsiorjss: the council would be run by the UN lol
Fladrifv: they would hopelessly fail in it indeed
excelsiorjss: sorry, random political reference
Fladrifv: please lets keep it away from political stuff
excelsiorjss: agreed, though
excelsiorjss: yes
ArPharazonV: I would still fail to see how one would use the Ring for good as a mere mortal, besides hoping to command the 9
ArPharazonV: that bit always bothered me in LotR too
Fladrifv: I think they would ignore the fire thing and try to melt it :-)
excelsiorjss: hmm
excelsiorjss: yeah
ArPharazonV: if they could use the Ring, what would they do with it?
AriehnV: if one would try to destroy it i am sure he would have been caught
VardaValar1: Gandalf said he would try to do good with it and that is how he would fall.
excelsiorjss: indeed
Eonwe Valar: If the Quest for the Ring happened in modern times, it would take a good deal more divine providence than it did in the time in which it was set.
ArPharazonV: but how can you try to do good with the One Ring? a power like Gandalf using it is one thing, but for just us humans...
ArPharazonV: what can you possible do with the ring? be invisible?
AriehnV: remember thatr Frodo did fail in the end if you like .. he would have claimed it for himself if it hadnt been for Gollum
ArPharazonV: be invisible, sneak a bomb into an important building, sneak out, and blow it up?
VardaValar1: Aragorn could have used it and become another much like Sauron.
ArPharazonV: But how! How could Aragorn have used it? That's my question
Fladrifv: what man good or evil could stand for the ultimate power?
Fladrifv: only gods isnt it?
AriehnV: Aragorn would have become another Lich King
AriehnV: err Witch King ;_
VardaValar1: Remember what the Ring told them when it tried to make them use it?
ArPharazonV: What power does the Ring possess that it's *useable* by otherwise powerless mortals?
excelsiorjss: perhaps so
AriehnV: typo ;-)
VardaValar1: It told Sam he could spread his garden over the world.
ArPharazonV: and can we possibly believe a word the Ring says?
Eonwe Valar: Aragorn would've been quite a frightening power: the best of humanity, unbound by the Music, with Maiar and Elven descent.
excelsiorjss: yes
VardaValar1: The Ring could have helped its owner do a lot of things with the power of Sauron that it contained.
Eonwe Valar: Even Sauron was concerned when he thought Aragorn had the Ring.
ArPharazonV: could Aragorn have harnessed that power, Varda? And more importantly for our discussion, could members of our modern society have harnessed it?
VardaValar1: We can see the worries that Gandalf and Sauron had, which suggests that one who wanted power could have had it.
VardaValar1: Not even guessing here. JRRT suggests that Aragorn could have become a Sauron-like power.
Eonwe Valar: Aragorn could've harnessed it to a great extent, if he had a mind to turn his will towards the domination of others, as Galadriel said Frodo would have to do.
VardaValar1: Aragorn was already the leader of the Rangers, their Chieftain and King in Exile. (Ignore movie)
ArPharazonV: so that's it? you use the thing to dominate others with sheer Ring-power? nothing else involved?
VardaValar1: He was bent on becoming king of both Arnor and Gondor.
VardaValar1: You want more? : )
ArPharazonV: I wanted some more explained usage of the Ring, how exactly this domination would come to pass :-)
VardaValar1: He could control all the other Rings
Eonwe Valar: The Ring augments that which one already has.
ArPharazonV: do you intimidate people with it or something?
ArPharazonV: ahh
VardaValar1: The One Ring would let him see and even dominate the other Ring users
Eonwe Valar: Aragorn was already a natural leader with great personal strength.
VardaValar1: Frodo was that rarity, someone not out to dominate others.
ArPharazonV: which would have been Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel and the 9, right? the Ring users?
excelsiorjss: yes, and even he would've failed
ArPharazonV: is dominating them enough for to gain power?
VardaValar1: There were more Rings than those for the Elves also.
Eonwe Valar: Gandalf, Elwong, and Galadriel would've likely taken off their rings in such an event.
Eonwe Valar: *Elrond.
VardaValar1: Gandalf feared the Ring going into the hands of Men who would use it for power
Eonwe Valar: Er, my fingers were typing Elwing for some reason.
excelsiorjss: lol
VardaValar1: If it had been nothing to worry about, let Boromir have it. : )
VardaValar1: Elwing says hi from over here. : )
Eonwe Valar: Heya to Elwing :}
ArPharazonV: well no, because Boromir would have *tried* to use it, failed, and be taken over by it
Fladrifv: borimir would have won the war with it :-)
ArPharazonV: eventually bringing it back to Mordor, no?
VardaValar1: And become a dark lord.
ArPharazonV: not if Sauron was stronger than he was
VardaValar1: Boromir would have set himself up as a dark lord.
Fladrifv: (in the form of a servant of sauron that is)
ArPharazonV: not if he wasn't strong enough
VardaValar1: Boromir would not willingly give it to Sauron
AriehnV: dont think Boromir would have been stronger than Sauron
AriehnV: he would have died or been captured and tortured by him
Eonwe Valar: Anyone who could use it to become a Dark Lord in Sauron's stead essentially would also have the strength of will to resist Sauron.
VardaValar1: Sauron would be fighting the part of himself that he put in the Ring also.
Fladrifv: one tempted by the ring failing to resist would fail the trail of sauron aswell
excelsiorjss: perhaps so
Fladrifv: the one not luring for power are the only ones who can handle it
VardaValar1: I'm not arguing with Gandalf on this one. : )
AriehnV: quite some picture .. trying to visionaklise and oversized Boromir fighting to death with the Lord of Mordor
Eonwe Valar: heh
ArPharazonV: fighting the Lord of Mordor? Without the Ring, wouldn't he still be an eye? :-)
VardaValar1: The person in the west who picked up the Ring and was into power would also build up armies.
Eonwe Valar: No, Sauron was apparently taking a truly physical form by then.
VardaValar1: The movie called him an eye, but Gollum in the books stated that he had only nine fingers on his blackened hands.
Eonwe Valar: I assume by "in the West" you mean Aman?
ArPharazonV: oh, btw, a small thing I noticed in my study of all things Numenor lately
ArPharazonV: Sauron apparently left the Ring at home in Barad-dur and took it up again when he returned
VardaValar1: That would have been capitalized. : )
VardaValar1: No, I mean not in the east which were the lands Sauron held
ArPharazonV: let me see if I can find that
Eonwe Valar: I would figure those in Aman would be done with that by now. The Noldor had learned their lesson bitterly, the Teleri would not want it, and the Vanyar are pretty faithful to Manwë.
Eonwe Valar: Ah, ok :}
VardaValar1: In LotR, west often was how the free peoples were referred to. Men of the west, and so on.
excelsiorjss: yes
Eonwe Valar: Most of those living in those land would use it, sure, but it's more likely to come to Sauron's attention in lands he already holds.
ArPharazonV: allright, found my quote, not that it matters in this discussion for now :-)
ArPharazonV: Men of the west is simply the translation for Dunedain, no, Varda? Which was derived from Westernesse, Numenor?
VardaValar1: That is another usage, yes
VardaValar1: Drop it. I'll just say free people to avoid confusion
ArPharazonV: *shuts up*
Fladrifv: *pats both*
VardaValar1: Phar, go ahead with your quote.
VardaValar1: I didn't intend to cause confusion, saw how it happened, trying to stop it, not upset. : )
ArPharazonV: Ah, yes, it just came to me during the discussion, though it's not really related, but related to something I remember discussing some time ago with you
ArPharazonV: what happened with the Ring when Sauron lost his bodily form in Numenor and came back, as I think most of you assumed he carried it with him the whole time
VardaValar1: The one where JRRT said Sauron could carry the Ring as a wraith.
ArPharazonV: this is after Numenor has fallen:
VardaValar1: Is this Sil?
ArPharazonV: ah, yes, Akallabeth
VardaValar1: Thanks
ArPharazonV: "But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men,
excelsiorjss has left the room.
ArPharazonV: yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home.
excelsiorjss has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malace and hatred made visible, and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.
ArPharazonV: "
ArPharazonV: it says he travelled back as a shadow and took up his Ring in Barad-dur
VardaValar1: I can see how you could read it either way.
ArPharazonV: which I take to assume he left it there when he went to Numenor?
VardaValar1: It might be read that way.
Fladrifv: took up his ring could also be: be leader again
AriehnV: taking up the one ring would actually mean to be leader for the one ring allows nothing else
ArPharazonV: so you think taking up the Ring was a metaphor?
VardaValar1: The phrase is often used in the non-physical sense
Eonwe Valar: I think you've lost me. The One Ring is as much into guile and subversion as its creator is. If by direct means it cannot get what it wants, it'll do that. Power and leadership is simply what appeals to the majority.
VardaValar1: That is a bit ambiguous
VardaValar1: Power is the Ring's usual way into people
VardaValar1: It is what is closest to Sauron's heart. He did not imagine they sought to destroy the Ring
AriehnV: well to be fair one has to say that power and leadership dont always search and do the evil things that the ring did and its creator
ArPharazonV: it is most often those who seek power but can't handle responsibility that become the evil ones
AriehnV: it was in their nature ... Sauron put much of his personality and abilities into the ring
Eonwe Valar: Of course, power and leadership are not evil.
VardaValar1: The most powerful was Eru and he was not evil
AriehnV: agreed phara
VardaValar1: What people do with power when they have it shows their character quickly
ArPharazonV: Eru made Morgoth from scratch...
Eonwe Valar: I've come to disagree with the adage "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." It tends to be the desire for power.
ArPharazonV: doesn't that mean part of Eru is evil too?
ArPharazonV: is he not everything?
VardaValar1: Ayel Sauron put his hate and malice into the Ring also
VardaValar1: No.
VardaValar1: Morgoth changed over time
Eonwe Valar: Eru created all of his children as entities with free will.
VardaValar1: Melkor started out alright, but separated himself from the others when seeking the Flame Imperishable in the Void. He made new thoughts.
VardaValar1: Free will is the key, aye.
ArPharazonV: so it was the Void that gave Morgoth his evil and not Eru himself?
VardaValar1: The Void did not cause Melkor to be evil
VardaValar1: Melkor had private thoughts without understanding what the real nature of the Flame Imperishable was and twisted himself.
VardaValar1: If he had asked questions, he might have been fine.
Eonwe Valar: Melkor, in his time in the Void, eventually came to the conclusion that he should be on Eru's level or greater, as is evidenced by his attempt to steer the Music as he wished.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
AriehnV: the wrong conclusion but it was his own decision
Eonwe Valar: So, in conclusion, if the Quest to Mount Doom happened in a modern setting, things would look even more bleak than they did in the books :}
VardaValar1: Aye : )
VardaValar1: to both of you.
ArPharazonV: *if* the Quest had happened in a modern setting
ArPharazonV: where would the other Rings be?
Eonwe Valar: With the Elves of course :}
ArPharazonV: if there are still Elves in this modern setting, why would the council be run by humans?
VardaValar1: The whole question changes up a lot.
Eonwe Valar: That's presuming the Elves who have the Rings are still in the equivalent of Middle-Earth.
VardaValar1: The whole question has a lot of problems
ArPharazonV: wouldn't the power of the One Ring be reduced if it had no Rings available to rule over?
Eonwe Valar: Elves still around after this long of time would probably have little concern for the affairs of the world.
Eonwe Valar: No, because the power of the One Ring is not contingent upon the other Rings.
ArPharazonV: didn't we already conclude that the major power it possesses is domination over other Rings and their wearers?
VardaValar1: No. But it helped Phar see one of the powers.
Eonwe Valar: The Ring also augments the nature of its wearer.
ArPharazonV: Ah, right.
Eonwe Valar: The invisibility part I believe is rather a result of the nature of its creator.
Eonwe Valar: So, shall we move to the next topic?
VardaValar1: What is the next topic?
Fladrifv: get the ends to sleep
Eonwe Valar: As Pharazon reminded me, Ancalagon suggested we might discuss his trivia question at the meeting :}
Fladrifv: ents...
VardaValar1: Play an elven lullaby? : )
ArPharazonV: Tall I was raised on an arm of black
ArPharazonV: Fingers I have but a body I lack
ArPharazonV: With my grip of stone I hold naught
Fladrifv: namarie all
ArPharazonV: In cunning and malice was I wrought
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Fladrif :}
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Fladrifv: *waves a branch*
VardaValar1: Namarie Fladrif!
ArPharazonV: To the North I'm turned purposefully
ArPharazonV: But with my master there I'll never be
ArPharazonV: White I was in days of pride
ArPharazonV: Red I turned when broken I lied
Eonwe Valar: I've got to say Ancalagon has me on this one. Minas Morgul seemed the most reasonable, but that doesn't seem to be it.
Fladrifv has left the room.
VardaValar1: I thought that too, Eonwe.
ArPharazonV: Indeed, I had the same idea... but I was the first to post it :-)
VardaValar1: So why are we discussing it?
Eonwe Valar: Sauron would somewhat make sense, since his master was in the North and he won't be there with him.
ArPharazonV: to see if we can get the answer together!
Eonwe Valar: "In cunning and malice I was wrought" seems to imply a thing and not a person though.
ArPharazonV: the first and third line seem to imply a thing too
VardaValar1: Aye, definitely a thing.
Eonwe Valar: Whatever it is it's an evil thing.
VardaValar1: Orcs maybe : )
Eonwe Valar: Focusing on the north, white in days of pride,..
ArPharazonV: I was originally thinking Mordor as it flowed red with lava after the Ring was gone, but neither was it white with pride nor would I say it is turned north
VardaValar1: Trying to think of a non-object to fit that line earlier.
VardaValar1: What was in the north to focus on?
VardaValar1: Numenor? Arnor?
Eonwe Valar: It says "To the North I'm turned Purposefully"
VardaValar1: Palantir's do that
ArPharazonV: Arveleg suggested the Witch King because of Angmar, but that wasn't it
Eonwe Valar: "With my grip of stone I hold naught."
Eonwe Valar: "Fingers I have but a body I lack"
VardaValar1: Palantir is a stone
Eonwe Valar: This makes me think of a mountain range.
ArPharazonV: fingers could have matched Denethor's palantir :-)
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar
ArPharazonV: aye, was thinking mountain range too, but what mountain range is turned north?
Eonwe Valar: Yes, but the Master Stone was in Osgiliath, and I'm pretty sure that was south of Minas Tirith, if I remember the maps correctly.
Eonwe Valar: or east.
ArPharazonV: it was more East than North in any case
ArPharazonV: "Tall I was raised on an arm of black" says to me either mountain or tower
VardaValar1: or a pillar
ArPharazonV: at first I thought of the Morannon, seeing as it also looks North, but that was created by Sauron, and not white in its days of pride
Eonwe Valar: Perhaps Saruman's symbol of the White hand? I believe red fingernails were added later on.
Eonwe Valar: bah, afk for a moment.,
Sarujil: all ill say is, i cant give any comment until its posted as a possible solution on the forum :-) hehe
VardaValar1: The hand was also knocked down wasn't it?
ArPharazonV: how would the hand look North purposefully? its master was Saruman surely?
VardaValar1: Point? : )
ArPharazonV: which means this takes place while either Saruman is in the North (perhaps after he is released from Isengard)
ArPharazonV: or if Isengard is the North
VardaValar1: And happy birthday to Grimbold and Muzgash :-)
ArPharazonV: I'm guessing a helmet of an Orc at Helm's Deep looking north would probably be too far-fetched?
ArPharazonV: happy birthday!
excelsiorjss: happy birthday
VardaValar1: It's master is north but it will never be with its master
ArPharazonV: or it will not be in the north while it's master is in the north
AriehnV: Beppy Hirthday :-)
VardaValar1: That too : )
Sarujil: it has to be in the books, and as far as i know, there is no specific mention of an orc helmet looking north :-)
ArPharazonV: hehe
Sarujil: but if there were i would surely put it into a riddle someday, i love the obscure :-)
VardaValar1: I wonder which way Ugluk's head was turned when on the pike?
ArPharazonV: with the helmet on, or?
VardaValar1: No helmet that I know of
ArPharazonV: then how has it fingers?
VardaValar1: Sticking with books here
VardaValar1: It would not be the answer, no.
ArPharazonV: recalling the movie, he looked toward Fangorn :-)
ArPharazonV: so what else can we think of?
ArPharazonV: a pillar you said, any idea what pillar could be raised on an arm of black?
VardaValar1: A pillar could be the arm of black : )
Eonwe Valar: Well, if it was Ugluk's head, and Ancalagon was using the idea that the orc faces had a big white hand on them, then the fingers could be pointing north :}
Eonwe Valar: back btw :}
VardaValar1: Aiyata : )
Eonwe Valar: Of course, without a book reference on that, it would be using the movie, so it wouldn't be it :}
Eonwe Valar: But I am going to guess Saruman's symbol because for now it seems plausible.
ArPharazonV: let me see if I can find something in RotK of the pillar that I set down upon my landing in Middle-earth :-)
Eonwe Valar: Putting it on the forum.
Sarujil: somebody beat you to it eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: oh, someone stole my idea. how dare they! :}
Eonwe Valar: oh well :}
ArPharazonV: oh, that's impressive
ArPharazonV: I had no recollection of that road sign
Sarujil: from some of her messages in this chat, I think Varda had already guessed it. But, I can't know for sure :-)
Sarujil: I guess you guys will just have to wait patiently for my next riddle :-) hehe
Eonwe Valar: Congratulations, Varda :}
AriehnV: grats for getting that ::-)
AriehnV: well peeple if fear i have to go :-( / O a
ArPharazonV: Namarie Arien!
VardaValar1: ok, explained the riddle
VardaValar1: Namarie, Arien!
Eonwe Valar: Wait! Varda didn';t use proper grammer! Quick, someone post the same answer, only putting a period on the end! :}
Sarujil: namarie
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well Arien :}
Sarujil: lol eonwe
VardaValar1: o my! Must modify post!
AriehnV: thanks all , am far too awake yet despite tiredness but got to get up tomorrosw
VardaValar1: I got it because it was pointing to its master but could not be with its master
AriehnV: Namarie all ! :-)
VardaValar1: Rest if you can't sleep : )
ArPharazonV: a road sign... of course
AriehnV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: I guess I'll call the meeting here and let the rest of you head out if you so wish :}
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*
ArPharazonV: I'll go to bed soon then
VardaValar1: Eonwe, I think we thought of it about the same time
VardaValar1: or very close
Eonwe Valar: Which "it"? The answer to the riddle?
Eonwe Valar: I wouldn't have remembered the signpost. I just had a feeling that it involved Saruman/his symbol, and couldn't remember how excatly.
Eonwe Valar: exactly even.
VardaValar1: I was kind of looking at the riddle instead of the chat, and got it figuring on pointing towards its master but not able to join him
VardaValar1: I definitely remembered the signpost
ArPharazonV: I wouldn't have thought of it, had completely forgotten the pillar
ArPharazonV: only pillar I could remember was the one I mentioned at Umbar
Eonwe Valar: The stone I was thinking more about was the stone statue the orcs put a head with one eye on at the Crossroads in Ithilien.
ArPharazonV: but that one was all white and had no fingers :-)
Sarujil: oh ... that stone bore the eye of sauron, though, not the white hand
Sarujil: hmm ... it is stone though and probably does have a hand ....
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I know. But it was the only stone anything coming to mind while I was thinking about it was my point.
Eonwe Valar: Besides mountain ranges.
Eonwe Valar: And Minas Ithil. I would not have remembered the pillar used as a road sign.
ArPharazonV: I considered Barad-dur for a while, with its top perhaps looking like fingers and Sauron looking to the North
ArPharazonV: but the master-thing didn't work out well, nor the white in days of pride
VardaValar1: ok. See who can type the answer to my riddle the fastest in the forum : )
Sarujil: youre much more efficient with your riddles than i am varda :-)
VardaValar1: I liked yours very much Anc.
VardaValar1: Mine was just fast ;-)
Sarujil: my answer is up :-) very likely wrong though hehe
Eonwe Valar: Is the answer a flying potato? :}
Sarujil: lol thats what i put!
VardaValar1: rofl
Eonwe Valar: Still thinking this one out.
Eonwe Valar: Think I got one.
VardaValar1: I figured it would go to the fastest typist among you three. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Answer posting as we speak.
VardaValar1: go go go!
Eonwe Valar: Answer posted :}
ArPharazonV: I can't think of one... closest I got to was a flag or a sail, but I don't remember one with eyes
ArPharazonV: ahhh, of course...
Eonwe Valar: I guessed a flock of Crebain.
ArPharazonV: yes, I read it
Eonwe Valar: ok :}
Eonwe Valar: If it's wrong, you can try a swarm of Neeker-breekers :}
VardaValar1: You got it, Eonwe. And that is so posted. : )
VardaValar1: lol! That might work
Eonwe Valar: Ah, it was right :} Ok, now to come up with a good one :}
VardaValar1: But the crebain were the spies of Saruman, and referred to as looking like a cloud
VardaValar1: In riddle form? :-)
ArPharazonV: but it's moving at great speed.... up wind ;-)
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I will post my question in riddle form as well :}
VardaValar1: Folks on this side of the screen have been incredibly patient, but I need to go thank them by going swimming with them now. : )
Sarujil: hehe ive started a new fad :-)
VardaValar1: I look forward to seeing your riddle, Eonwe!
Eonwe Valar: Ok Varda, have fun :}
VardaValar1: This could be called a Riddle game, but not forced.
VardaValar1: Just for the pleasure of it : )
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Varda!
ArPharazonV: have fun
VardaValar1: Namarie, friends!
ArPharazonV: I'll save and send soon
Eonwe Valar: Aye, riddles can help get the creative juices flowing :}
Sarujil: namarie varda
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Eonwe Valar: Ok, lady and gents, my riddle is up. Take your guess if you so wish :}
Sarujil: later eonwe
Sarujil: err
Sarujil: misread hehe
ArPharazonV: I think I have it :-)
ArPharazonV: but that means I'll have to come up with another one!
ArPharazonV: and I'm not too well read with Lotr anymore...
Sarujil: go ahead phar, im interested to see if your guess is the same as mine :-)
Eonwe Valar: I fear I may have made it too easy if you've already got an answer :}
Sarujil: and im much better at making riddles than guessing them hehe
ArPharazonV: allright, made my guess
Eonwe Valar: Alright, I've made my response :}
ArPharazonV: hmm, my turn then
Sarujil: nice one phar, was what i was thinking also
Eonwe Valar: I guess the "dark lord and his rings" part made it too easy.
ArPharazonV: actually, the whole apart and kept together thing got me
ArPharazonV: as well as it being an heirloom to a line of kings
Eonwe Valar: Well yeah, I suppose there's not too many First Age weapons left around even in the hands of kings.
Eonwe Valar: Oh well, I'm still satisfied with the quality of my riddle :}
ArPharazonV: I hate rhyming riddles, so hard to come up with right formulations...
Eonwe Valar: aabbccdd works for meme :}
ArPharazonV: oh, that I'm doing
ArPharazonV: I think I'm making it too easy, but eh...
Sarujil: i usually set out with a goal to make a more complex rhyming riddle, but then settle for eonwe's method :-)
Sarujil: anyway, people are trying to guess it by the images in the words you use, not whether its a sonnet or a haiku :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, I should probably practice sonnets a bit more. I'm sure that literary form will be useful at some point :}
ArPharazonV: ok, give it your best shot!
Sarujil: i put my guess up...
ArPharazonV: You are correct! I knew it was too easy :-)
Sarujil: it was a good rhyme though :-)
Sarujil: my next one might take me a bit longer to put up :-) now that you guys are all making riddles, I have to be even more clever with mine :-) /cackle
Eonwe Valar: Nice rhyme, aye :}
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: the last 2 lines bothered me quite a bit
Eonwe Valar: Not all of mine will be in riddle form, I just thought I'd give it a go this time and maybe in the future :}
Sarujil: it was the first and 5th lines that gave it away
ArPharazonV: I was thinking of "while my ruler fell in fire I set a-flame the heart's desire" but desire wasn't very right
Sarujil: to me, anyway
Sarujil: any time 3, 7, 9, or 1 is used in a Tolkien context, one's mind tends to go to a certain four letter word :-)
Eonwe Valar: I was already thinking ring with the first two lines, leaning towards the Three, was confirmed by the fifth line, solidified which one by the last part.
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: It lead through a nice progression.
ArPharazonV: well, that was the point, really...
ArPharazonV: it was fun to set up but not meant to be very hard
ArPharazonV: not that I could have made it hard had I tried, which in the beginning I did
Sarujil: yes. maybe a bit too straightforward however. like when you use a root word in a definition :-)
ArPharazonV: just not too good at making the questions
ArPharazonV: I like answering questions but I'm always hesitant to do so because I have to make the next one
ArPharazonV: but well, had to give it a shot :-)
Sarujil: i like asking the questions more - how bout any time you guess a question correctly, you can pass the next question off to me! hehe
ArPharazonV: Sounds like a good deal to me ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, for the question making you could always flip through the books if you want. Rules don't say questions have to be off the top of your head, do they?
ArPharazonV: Just a problem if I keep answering yours!
Sarujil: no only the answers do in the lotr thread :-)
Sarujil: heh phar
Eonwe Valar: Ok, so flipping through the books to help with formulating questions should be fine :}
ArPharazonV: indeedy... well, we'll see what Anc's question is another day, I guess
ArPharazonV: I'm going to bed
ArPharazonV: Passing to one who came and went,from one who stayed until the end.
ArPharazonV: did that help anyone?
ArPharazonV: was quite proud of that formulation but I thought it would be overlooked with the rest of the riddle
Sarujil: it helped as proof of the solution, but wasnt what initially led me to the solution
Eonwe Valar: Well, that part would imply either Galadriel or Gandalf I think, on thesurface, until one realized the second part spoke of Cirdan.
ArPharazonV: indeed
Eonwe Valar: If someone wasn't already thinking along the lines of Narya by that line, that part would certainly help.
ArPharazonV: well, saving and sending
ArPharazonV: if you two are going on for a bit, be sure to send in your own versions!