Valar Guild

April 22, 2007 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon-(V) and Varda-(Valar)

Attending: (15)
    Members: Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, Arien-(V)/AriehnV, ArPharazonV, Arwen V1, Beorn-(V)/TwoSurlyDwarves, Bombur-(V)/MrMonkey2002Blah, Eonwe Valar, FladrifV, GilraenV, Glorfindel VG/VegetableMannn, Manwe-(Valar)/Russ82275, VardaValar1 (presiding), Voronwe-(V)/tristerfalm777
    Friends: excelsiorjss (friend of Glorfindel's), Srekal86

Meeting begins
    WC3: new gaming strategy by Bombur-(V)
    What do we know and what can we speculate about the nature of huorns?
    Elements of mythologies in Tolkien's writings. (Slow theme shift.)
    Tom Bombadil
    Was everyone in Tolkien's world power-hungry? Is control ever legitimate?

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
VardaValar1: Please note the proper smiley again!
FladrifV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: I notice!
FladrifV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: switched to GAIM then?
VardaValar1: Not yet. Found an old copy of AIM
ArPharazonV: great :-)
FladrifV: Gaim is great...only im dislectic and have hard times spelling the meeting place correct
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: do what I did, make a shortcut on your desktop to the room itself
VardaValar1: Guess I can do a Google search and find it
FladrifV: gaim cant make a shortcut
ArPharazonV: hmm...
FladrifV: but in all gaim is better ;-)
ArPharazonV: bad gaim!
VardaValar1: How do you make it on AIM?
FladrifV: *teaser* oh lotro is quite fun btw
VardaValar1: You can hope we notice you are there and invite you
VardaValar1: lol
ArPharazonV: in the meeting window, open the File menu
VardaValar1: Fun! It's incredibly addictive! aye
ArPharazonV: then click Create Shortcut
ArPharazonV: and voila! upon confirmation, a shortcut will appear on your desktop
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar. That should help a lot of people reading this transcript. :-)
VardaValar1: I had better start inviting :-)
FladrifV: *grin*
VardaValar1: Most don't have you two's talent at entering on their own!
Srekal86 has entered the room.
tristerfalm777 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Heya Hyarion :-)
Srekal86: 'lo
GilraenV has entered the room.
tristerfalm777: Hello
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Voronwe and Gilraen and Arwen :-)
MrMonkey2002Blah has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Bombur : )
GilraenV: Aiya Varda, and all :-)
tristerfalm777: ((i've got to go work on some assignements for class soon. seems like im always busy on sundays :-( ))
VardaValar1: Most are, Voronwe. Thanks for dropping by!
Arwen V1 has left the room.
tristerfalm777 has left the room.
Sarujil has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Ancalagon! Aiya : )
Sarujil: hi
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Let's get started and let the others catch up to us : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe! Good to see you : )
Eonwe Valar: Heya

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Folks, please help spot all the people just coming on that I'm missing sending invitations too. :-)
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: New members this week: :-)
VardaValar1: Falathar-(MoH) has passed his test to be a Full Member now!
VardaValar1: Orome-(Valar) grilled him good. : )
ArPharazonV: grats!
VardaValar1: We now have Falathar-(V) in our ranks, already with his character in LotRO Landroval in our guild branch. : )
FladrifV: flipped side once in a while I hope
VardaValar1: He's an even golden brown, aye.
VardaValar1: Araminas joined us in the LotRO branch, having a great time, quite active
VardaValar1: Araminas-(V), pardon
Srekal86 has left the room.
VardaValar1: Faramir-(V) also joined us in LotRO, and has been properly warned to behave around Eowyn-(V). : )
VardaValar1: He's a gentlemanly fellow, so I'm not actually worried about my daughter. : )
VardaValar1: Melkor is back from vacation and playing hard in LotRO.
VardaValar1: He is on now, working up still another character there. : )
VardaValar1: Fladrif has been scouting too, and found a lady who may be interested in WoW : )
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?

VardaValar1: Web:
VardaValar1: Two new articles:
VardaValar1: New members Finduilas and Borin sent in their articles, now published, on their characters
VardaValar1: "Finduilas, Daughter of Adrahil"
VardaValar1: "Borin"
VardaValar1: Next story in the Mellon Chronicles by Cassia-(TV) and Siobhan-(TV) for those of you following that.
VardaValar1: "Escape from Mordor"
VardaValar1: As always, it has a starting illustraton by Cassia-(TV).
VardaValar1: Any further web news?
VardaValar1: You are all sending in your game reviews to Eonwe, right? : )
VardaValar1: Diablo 1, StarCraft, BroodWars, EQ, NWN, EQ2, Guild Wars, Eve Online, DAoC, WoW, WC's, LotRO? : )
VardaValar1: If not, feel free to make your comments there!
VardaValar1: And of course all of you have sent in articles or other goodies to the Tolkien Site to make sure your character is represented. Or about to. : )

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Who has played something not WoW or LotRO this week?
ArPharazonV: I have
FladrifV: I did too
ArPharazonV: I finished Total Annihilation, and now I started replaying another game
VardaValar1: Phar spoke first : )
ArPharazonV: Empire Earth, also an RTS
ArPharazonV: I've finished the first campaign about the Greeks, and am now halfway through the English campaign
ArPharazonV: it ranges from the prehistoric age to the nano age 200 years from now, and so the campaigns take place in different time periods as well
ArPharazonV: I already have the expansion, may start on that afterwards... I think there's also a sequel, but I haven't gotten that one yet
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: and after I'm done with that.. who knows what old game of mine I might start playing again :-)
ArPharazonV: that includes my report, on to Fladrif!
ArPharazonV: *concludes
ArPharazonV: *grin*
VardaValar1: : )
VardaValar1: Go Fladrif1
FladrifV: I ahve been playing totala aswell due to arphs comments on it
FladrifV: have...
VardaValar1: Corrupted.
FladrifV: next to that online chess and nexiuz an online opensource quake clone
AriehnV has entered the room.
FladrifV: dont worry I will not become a huorn yet Varda
VardaValar1: *whew*
FladrifV: also finished boulderdash
FladrifV: ....wonder who knows that game :-)
VardaValar1: Don't think it's the one where you throw things at Balder.
AriehnV: Aiya all together :-) sorry for the delay
VardaValar1: Good you could make it. : )
FladrifV: no its an old dos game , puzzle oriented
FladrifV: *hands over the bransh to varda*
VardaValar1: Thank you, Fladrif : )
VardaValar1: Arien, go ahead with the WoW Argent Dawn report. : )
AriehnV: oki dok
AriehnV: it started all wednesday
AriehnV: when a strange sounding name turned up in our guild channel and confused me right with some riddle game
AriehnV: concerning his identity
AriehnV: it turned out to be our heavenly warrior, Menelvagor
VardaValar1: hehe
AriehnV: so he invited my lazy paladin to help him with a few quests in searing gorge
AriehnV: together we battled almost all the elites in the cauldron
AriehnV: On wednesday it was that dodgy dealer with his mechanical version of a swift meal maker
AriehnV: and overseer maltthorius
AriehnV: on thursday we had the pleasure to face Obsidian
AriehnV: Thursday night , our valar guild mates, in the shape of Fladrif, our new lvl 70 hunter, Valandile, Anarore (Menels shammy) and a guild friend of failivrin and him, called Azrahn visited the temple of atar hakor
AriehnV: Azrahn is a lvl 70 rogue so we blasted right through slimes, worms and undead atai
AriehnV: not to mention a few dragons
AriehnV: apart from the fact that ana forgot about weaver and his mate
AriehnV: which ended in somewhat of a disaster ... at least the first time
AriehnV: back into our bodies we turned them into leather suppliers
AriehnV: without further problems we marched via Masomething and his companion right through to Hakkar
AriehnV: or is it Mozarbus? something like this :-) still dont know the names
AriehnV: after finishing this little taksk we had to take a rest but friday was there still
AriehnV: and anarore teamed up with finduilasse again
AriehnV: we had a visit at the burning blades place
AriehnV: to gain some artefact
AriehnV: and after this little game Crisseagrim helped Findu to gain arajs scarab
AriehnV: which meant that he now posesses the skeleton key
AriehnV: In consefcution we had a go at Alexi Barov at the Bulwark and , true to the quest text, some horde scum turned up to defend him
AriehnV: *grins wickedly and flexes his muscles*
AriehnV: when we finally managed to get enough people together we had no problem to show them who is the stronger and they decided wisely to give up after we defeated them the third time
AriehnV: gave us quite some honor :-)
AriehnV: and to conclude the report, we managed to kill barov as well :-)
AriehnV: he has a right bad armor even for upper sixties and a seventy he is hard to defeat
AriehnV: Thus endeth my report in triumph :-)
VardaValar1: Congratulations!
ArPharazonV: congrats!
VardaValar1: Anything else from the WoW Europe group?
VardaValar1: Phar, you usually have something?
ArPharazonV: I killed Gruul with a group, and am now halfway attuned to Serpentshrine...
AriehnV: Ariena , my Belfadin on Auchindoun has bought a charter for Shadow Valar
FladrifV: May I re mention my lvl 70 ness?
ArPharazonV: also got exalted with Scryers, and am now trying to farm 1300 dreadfang venom sacs to switch to Aldor
Eonwe Valar: Um, Shadow Valar?
VardaValar1: Hey, now wait a minute
VardaValar1: Shadow Valar?
AriehnV: can always change the name
VardaValar1: I suspect a miscommunication
VardaValar1: When Valar runs a shadow guild it means we are Valar members operating within other guilds.
VardaValar1: Not a separate guild
AriehnV: what?
AriehnV: /me looks completely confused
VardaValar1: That is why we said "what"?
VardaValar1: For instance, in High Guard, we had a shadow guild running with a few members in it.
Eonwe Valar: When the Valar Guild sets up a branch somewhere, it sets up under it's own name, The Valar Guild.
ArPharazonV: *nod* Valandile, Fladrif and myself are still in The High Guard, making it a shadow guild for us :-)
VardaValar1: In EQ, we had a number of members who kept up contact but ran in several guilds, some in the same guild.
AriehnV: still confused
VardaValar1: shadow guild is a descriptive term, not a guild name.
AriehnV: no bother with the name can change that no bother in the charter
Eonwe Valar: Simple version: If you are trying to set up a Valar Guild branch for Horde. It will still be called Valar Guild.
AriehnV: ah :-)
ArPharazonV: if you are making a second branch in the same game on another server, it will also still be called Valar Guild :-)
VardaValar1: The Uldaman Horde group is called the Valar Guild
VardaValar1: Where you are, you can't see how it is being operated, so it is a natural mistake.
VardaValar1: Now that you know, there should be no problem. : )
Eonwe Valar: Aye, fix the name and everything's fine.
VardaValar1: Bombur has a short report for WC3, a neat gaming idea. :-)
MrMonkey2002Blah: Well
MrMonkey2002Blah: Basically when I get really bored... I come up with an extremely stupid strategy in WC3...
MrMonkey2002Blah: i.e.
MrMonkey2002Blah: I will mass moonwells and build 3 heroes
VardaValar1: Calling it "creative" sounds better. ;-)
MrMonkey2002Blah: I will fill up as much of the map with moonwells as possible
MrMonkey2002Blah: and it gets rediculous as they cant kill my heroes..
MrMonkey2002Blah: I do it with heroes that have instant abilities like the warden's fan of knives, panda's flame breath, and nagas forked lightening
ArPharazonV: ah
FladrifV: but you need to tech for 3 hero's
MrMonkey2002Blah: with these instant attacks, you can kill units extremely quickly and run
MrMonkey2002Blah: that is true
MrMonkey2002Blah: but you can fast tech to 2 heroes extremely fast
ArPharazonV: moon wells for mana regeneration then?
MrMonkey2002Blah: because all you are building moonwells
MrMonkey2002Blah: yes
TwoSurlyDwarves has entered the room.
MrMonkey2002Blah: so you do hit and runs on their army
MrMonkey2002Blah: wearing htem down with instants
MrMonkey2002Blah: and regening
FladrifV: neat
MrMonkey2002Blah: it requires a ton of micro
MrMonkey2002Blah: and it is stressful
MrMonkey2002Blah: but if you win it is fun
MrMonkey2002Blah: people cant believe it when they go to attack and all they see is moonwells
MrMonkey2002Blah: they believe it even less when they lose most of their army to 1-3 heroes
MrMonkey2002Blah: you can buy moonstones to up the regen rate on the moonwells during the day
MrMonkey2002Blah: and if you get attacked while your wells are low
ArPharazonV: they can't use siege weapons or aoe attacks to kill the moonwells, or are you just too fast with your heroes for that?
MrMonkey2002Blah: you can pop a stone
MrMonkey2002Blah: siege weapons die fairly quickly
MrMonkey2002Blah: but yes, that is one of hte problems
MrMonkey2002Blah: if they mass enough siege
MrMonkey2002Blah: such as steamtanks
MrMonkey2002Blah: it gets difficult
MrMonkey2002Blah: otherwise, you can annoy them to pieces
MrMonkey2002Blah: once you venture out of your base
FladrifV: never use the tacktic twice ;-)
MrMonkey2002Blah: staffs of preservation and teleportation
MrMonkey2002Blah: can help you do your hit and runs
MrMonkey2002Blah: it's fun to do with a partner in 2v2
MrMonkey2002Blah: which is where i primarilly do it
MrMonkey2002Blah: once you get to t3, a hunters hall with the lifewell upgrade helps a lot
FladrifV: interesting
VardaValar1: Thank you for a very cool new way to play!
VardaValar1: We love to add these sorts of things, as we did in Diablo. : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe, would you like to give the WoW Lothar report now?
Eonwe Valar: Sure
Eonwe Valar: Today (Firday), Eonwë and Bilbo, went with Elwing and Sauron to clear out Zul Farrak and complete all quests there.
Eonwe Valar: *Friday
Eonwe Valar: The task was fairly easy, since Eonwë was taking the brunt of the attack with his lvl 69 Paladin. None of the bosses stood a chance.
TwoSurlyDwarves has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Afterwards, sans Bilbo we went to rescue Sharpbeak and retrieve the Ancient Egg from the trolls of the Hinterlands. Beline joined us for this. Afterwards, we called it a night.
Eonwe Valar: Later, Beline and Eonwë completed some of Eonwë's group quests in Nagrand, bringing him within one bubble of 70.
Eonwe Valar: That concludes this report.
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe. : )
TwoSurlyDwarves has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: MP
VardaValar1: Welcome back : )
TwoSurlyDwarves: thanks
Russ82275 has entered the room.
Russ82275: heya heya heya
VardaValar1: Aiya Manwe : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
VardaValar1: For the Uldaman WoW report:
VardaValar1: Fangorn and Varda ran their Blood Elves questing together, and his paladin gained two levels. Fishing and mining also went up, as did cooking and first aid to a lesser degree.
VardaValar1: End report. : )
Russ82275: *high fives all his valar buddies*
VardaValar1: *high fives back*
VardaValar1: LotRO report;
VardaValar1: :
VardaValar1: We use Monday as our special day
VardaValar1: and like our other special days tend to see fewer people on. Go figure. ;-)
VardaValar1: So we only have around 12 ;-)
VardaValar1: Falathar joined up Monday
VardaValar1: Ancalagon and Varda were on most of the day to late at night with a few short real life breaks for homework, chores, and meals.
VardaValar1: Around 5pm EDT, Manwe's guardian, Varda's lore master, and Ancalagon's burglar joined up with guild-friend Eodgifu's captain to quest north of Combe against the Blackwold ruffians in the woods
VardaValar1: and to complete the Vigil against them when they came onto a farm;
VardaValar1: into the Midgewater Marshes for goblins; and into the Marshwater Fort ruins for spiders.
Russ82275: interruption...Eadgifu
Russ82275: sorry
VardaValar1: The same fellowship also worked on the human Epic Prologue for Eodgifu as the others had already done it
VardaValar1: He's right, Eadgifu : )
Russ82275: =P
VardaValar1: More gaming went on for Varda doing book and chapter quests, and Merry running a batch of quests,
VardaValar1: Dis and her husband were very busy also
VardaValar1: Her husband passed his test but is still stuck on a name.
VardaValar1: He thinks someone Rohirric would be good. : )
TwoSurlyDwarves: He's the one that plays Boudica?
VardaValar1: Aye, and others as well. : )
VardaValar1: Erkenbrand was on as Herdy
VardaValar1: Eadgifu has emailed asking about joining the guild since then. : )
Russ82275: yay!
VardaValar1: She has also continued gaming with us
VardaValar1: End of Monday LotRO report.
VardaValar1: Fladrif has started into the LotRO Europe gaming. : )
VardaValar1: Did you have any first impressions, Fladrif?
FladrifV: yes I do
FladrifV: It was hard to find my way around in the interface I must say...although very simular to wow
FladrifV: I still end up trying to do wow actions
Russ82275: lol, your not the only one buddy =)
FladrifV: I made a hunter, pet less... called fladrir
VardaValar1: hehe - aye
FladrifV: this I started on the english RP server, hope it is a good choice
FladrifV: also the game will be oficially open on the 24th
Russ82275: are they segregating continental servers?
VardaValar1: None of the Amercan servers were marked RP. The players voted Landroval as their unofficial choice for it.
FladrifV: in eu they have 3 for every language
FladrifV: and one of the 3 is rp marked
VardaValar1: The American servers now allow European ip's to come in, but aye, segregated.
TwoSurlyDwarves has left the room.
VardaValar1: If they buy a Turbine game, they are welcome.
Russ82275: how about after launch? will they fix it so that the servers arent regional?
TwoSurlyDwarves has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Turbine handles the Americas, CodeMasters handles Europe.
VardaValar1: Turbine tossed a bone at least.
Russ82275: i see
VardaValar1: I have gamed with people from Europe
VardaValar1: Some had better lag than people living a town away. : )
Russ82275: ehehe
VardaValar1: They ran smoothly.
VardaValar1: If they can speak English and have a good comp, np.
VardaValar1: Is there any further news, business, comment, suggestion?
FladrifV: my update went faster by normal procedure then downloading seperate
VardaValar1: This is your guild, folks, so your input is valued and helps make what the guild is.
Russ82275: yeah, sorry but I most likely will not join you guys in LoTRO
Russ82275: nothing negative, just dont have time to play MMO's
VardaValar1: What will you be doing instead?
VardaValar1: Okies
VardaValar1: Hope you can continue dropping by meetings now and then. Good to see you!
Russ82275: well, summer is close, most likely my free time will be fishing, bbq's, and riding 4-wheelers
FladrifV: sounds fun
Russ82275: plus summer classes are so intense, I'm not sure i need an MMO distraction on my computer ha!
Russ82275: anyway, just letting ya know :-(
VardaValar1: Thank you. That is appreciated.
VardaValar1: Sounds fun, by the way. : )
VardaValar1: Any further business? Suggestions?
VardaValar1: Tolkien:
FladrifV: may I....
VardaValar1: Go ahead, Fladrif. : )
FladrifV: actually for the previous subject sorry about that...
VardaValar1: Go ahead on the previous subject. : )
FladrifV: thank you
FladrifV: some sort of list of fantasy books you have been reading next to tolkien books or something like that
FladrifV: could that be an idea for the guild
VardaValar1: That would be a fun addition to our forum
VardaValar1: We have a section for other authors
VardaValar1: It could go along with it as a list
VardaValar1: We don't even have a list for which Tolkien books we've read
FladrifV: just so that you can have a nice chat with other members about the books you both have been reading
FladrifV: or to pick up nice ideas what to read next
VardaValar1: Have you looked at the section on other authors?
FladrifV: *drags himself into the fora*.....
VardaValar1: Pick out a favorite author and say which books of theirs you read and liked? Would that work as you would like?
FladrifV: I will think about this a bit more and come up with something next meeting if allowed
TwoSurlyDwarves: wait? read? we have people that read in this guild? madness!
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Tolkien is not the only interest here, right. : )
FladrifV: double dwarf see it as RSI prevention ;-)
VardaValar1: We came together partly because we are a literate group.
Russ82275: who had PC addictions!
VardaValar1: In the Tolkien chat, if you want, you can show how another author uses something Tolkienesque.
VardaValar1: lol - and that!
TwoSurlyDwarves: of course, I'm being facetious
Russ82275: =P
excelsiorjss has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Hello, excelsiorjss. May we help you?
Glorfindel VG: varda
VardaValar1: Glorfindel? : )
Glorfindel VG: hes a friend of mine interested in tolkien lore
excelsiorjss: haha, i just randomly came into here
Glorfindel VG: he was interested in learning a abit about our group
VardaValar1: Then you are most welcome, Excelsior!
excelsiorjss: heh, awesome
Russ82275: is that what Cpt America says?
TwoSurlyDwarves: hello, nice to meet you
Russ82275: out of curiosity
excelsiorjss: no clue
TwoSurlyDwarves: it's what Stan Lee says
Russ82275: ah yes
Russ82275: thanks
TwoSurlyDwarves: and it's the name of a starship
TwoSurlyDwarves: and a kind of wrapping paper
VardaValar1: (Admits to being an old Marvel fan. "Keeper of the Flame")
excelsiorjss: nice to meet you guys, glorfindel actually just told me about this group
Glorfindel VG: yeah excel here is a tolkien fan as well
AriehnV: Aiya there, Excelsior :-)
excelsiorjss: howdy Ariehn
TwoSurlyDwarves: A Tolkien fan? Here?
Glorfindel VG: and he would be interested in possibly joining one of our tolkien discussions some time
AriehnV: /me bows to excelsiorjiss
excelsiorjss: /me returns the bow
Glorfindel VG: but i guess we missed it today?
AriehnV: Tolkien who is that ? *chuckle*
excelsiorjss: heh
VardaValar1: His timing is exquisite, as we were just about to embark on a discussion of huorns. : )
Glorfindel VG: ohh good
VardaValar1: Now let's make it official ;-)

VardaValar1: Tolkien:

    What do we know and what can we speculate about the nature of huorns?
    Elements of mythologies in Tolkien's writings. (Slow theme shift.)
    Tom Bombadil
    Was everyone in Tolkien's world power-hungry? Is control ever legitimate?

Glorfindel VG: w00t
VardaValar1: What do we know and what can we speculate about the nature of huorns?
excelsiorjss: well, they are natives of fangorn forest if I am not mistaken, not very different from the entish ones
VardaValar1: What, then, is a huorn? And this part of the chat is open to all here. : )
ArPharazonV: living trees, whispering among themselves, able to move silently and with shadow at their feet
TwoSurlyDwarves: Would you consider the trees of the Old Forest, such as Old Man Willow, to be huorns?
ArPharazonV: you don't see them moving, only notice that they've moved
ArPharazonV: I'd say so, yes
Russ82275: I think Old Man Willow was a huron
excelsiorjss: would you say so, TSD?
excelsiorjss: heh a huron?
Russ82275: lol
TwoSurlyDwarves has left the room.
Russ82275: huron
Russ82275: ;kjash;sha;sakhj
Russ82275: huorn
Russ82275: lol
excelsiorjss: hah
TwoSurlyDwarves has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: the Ents as their shepherds, they fought in the war the Ents decided to fight, implying that the Ents have some sort of control over them, in addition to taking care of them
ArPharazonV: or perhaps the huorns are just loyal to their shepherds
excelsiorjss: yes
VardaValar1: Think back, where did the huorns have their origin?
ArPharazonV: some Ents became tree-ish, putting forth the possibility that Huorns are Ents who've gone too far along that path
ArPharazonV: making it quite possible in my eyes that Old Man Willow was in fact an Ent, not a Huorn, just almost becoming a Huorn, and the Huorns in the forest obeying its command and guiding the hobbits in his direction
TwoSurlyDwarves: there also seems to be a possibility that some, at lease, are the other way around, and are trees that are becoming more "entish"
ArPharazonV: it could also be that Huorns are actually trees who have become more like Ents, instead of the other way around
ArPharazonV: aye
TwoSurlyDwarves: heh - great minds, eh?
excelsiorjss: indeed
ArPharazonV: just a logical sequence in the argument ;-)
ArPharazonV: but perhaps :-)
FladrifV: the word itself means active tree
VardaValar1: Ents shepherded Huorns at Helm's Deep.
excelsiorjss: yes
FladrifV: although many things must happen to get an huorn to move
ArPharazonV: have they been known to move by themselves, or on the greater command of an ent, or a Huorn-leader perhaps, whatever Old Man Willow may be?
ArPharazonV: *or just on
VardaValar1: The Huorns had business of their own, Fangorn said.
VardaValar1: He referred to Helm's Deep.
ArPharazonV: was that on Huorn-initiative?
VardaValar1: It appeared so.
TwoSurlyDwarves: sure seemed that way to me
Russ82275: my question is, did all trees have the potential to become Huorns?
ArPharazonV: how about the attack at Buckland, where the trees of the Old Forest actively made war? don't remember the exact circumstances, but I think it ended with a great burning, and the planting of that great hedge they set up
ArPharazonV: perhaps only under influence of Yavanna or the Ents?
VardaValar1: The subject is addressed in "Flotsam and Jetsam"
TwoSurlyDwarves has left the room.
VardaValar1: of the Two Towers
excelsiorjss: ah, the chapter of TT
TwoSurlyDwarves has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Merry says, "I think they are Ents that have become almost like trees, at least to look at."
excelsiorjss: alright
excelsiorjss: omg i need to have my parents mail my copy of LOTR up to me :/
VardaValar1: "They stand here and there in the wood or under its eaves, silent watching endlessly over the trees, but"
Russ82275: I think what you say Var is backed up when Fangorn says, and I'm paraphrasing, that some ents will take longer to stir
VardaValar1: "deep in the darkest dales there are hundreds, and hundreds of them, I believe."
VardaValar1: More description of them and their abilities, then
FladrifV: I think with the quietness over the ages inside the woods it became more tempting for the ents to become treeish
VardaValar1: "They still have voices, and can speak with the
VardaValar1: Ents - that is why they are called Huorns, Treebeard says - but they have become queer and wild. Dangerous."
VardaValar1: Huorns also went to Isengard, not just Helm's Deep.
excelsiorjss: yea, when the Huorns are mentioned, they are usually described as being wild and dangerous
TwoSurlyDwarves: feral ents then
excelsiorjss: indeed
VardaValar1: I agree, Beorn.
Russ82275: hmm, guess that means Old Man Willow was a huorn, he was wild and dangerous
VardaValar1: Feral Ents, a very good description.
excelsiorjss: well, not necessarily
excelsiorjss: he could have just been a more wild/dangerous ent
VardaValar1: Manwe, I agree that that was a possibility.
ArPharazonV: if all the moving trees were once Ents, there were definitely a lot of them
Glorfindel VG: possibly mirkwood?
excelsiorjss: hmm
VardaValar1: Wild, dangerous Ent is a Huorn, aye.
excelsiorjss: well true
excelsiorjss: but, perhaps not-quite to the point of being a Huorn
VardaValar1: One must wonder if the Entwives went wild and just how wild, feral.
FladrifV: did they loose their faith in their task and master and became thereby a huorn?
VardaValar1: No, the Huorns "
VardaValar1: "Huorns watching endlessly over the trees"
Russ82275: I guess this is really one of those little grey areas, not sure if it's semantics, or if trees becoming entish or ents becoming tree-ish are the same thing
VardaValar1: They were angry.
Glorfindel VG: they just got bored after all that time :-)
TwoSurlyDwarves: semantics, semantics, I'm always up for some antics!
excelsiorjss: heh
Russ82275: ehehe
VardaValar1: Ents were originally made in the Song with Yavanna, a special thing, to watch over the trees.
VardaValar1: The trees were not Ents to begin with.
AriehnV: true
Glorfindel VG: i think they were just the oldest of the old trees
ArPharazonV: were Ents made in the Song?
VardaValar1: But Elves woke up trees, by talking to them.
AriehnV: the ents were creatures , creations granted by eru on the request of Yavanna
VardaValar1: Yes, see the Silmarillion "Of Aule and Yavanna"
ArPharazonV: yes, but did that not happen after the Song?
TwoSurlyDwarves: yes, after
Russ82275: great chapter, you know that it's really funny behind all the fancy
excelsiorjss: yeah
VardaValar1: I like fancy English and think it can be used to be very funny. : )
Russ82275: yeah, that sounded negative when I typed it, sorry Var
TwoSurlyDwarves: "My dog hath no nose"
TwoSurlyDwarves: for example
excelsiorjss: lol
VardaValar1: No problem at all. Mine sounded more negative than intended also.
VardaValar1: There you go, Beorn!
VardaValar1: That's what we meant. : )
TwoSurlyDwarves: Well, someone ask the follow-up question :-P
TwoSurlyDwarves: "Then, pray tell, how doth it smell?"
Russ82275: LOL
TwoSurlyDwarves: "Awful!"
VardaValar1: Badly.
excelsiorjss: ROFL that was AWFUL
TwoSurlyDwarves: lol
Russ82275: ><
VardaValar1: Aye, great huh? : )
excelsiorjss: indeed
VardaValar1: We also have some heavy punning at times, so beware.
excelsiorjss: punderful
VardaValar1: =)
TwoSurlyDwarves: That one is actually recorded as far back as the 1600s
VardaValar1: The Song set up things, but that didn't mean they came into existence instantly
excelsiorjss: true
VardaValar1: Beorn, our times are not the only ones loaded with awful humor. : )
excelsiorjss: good to know
VardaValar1: Luckily!
AriehnV: That power is only with Eru
AriehnV: to create by word
AriehnV: if the time is right, that is
excelsiorjss: heh
AriehnV: but he has the power, he speaks and it is
VardaValar1: The Song's theme was set up by Eru, the Valar helped with managing details in it, then the Free People did the micro-management. : )
VardaValar1: "Ea", it is. : ) Aye.
AriehnV: :-)
TwoSurlyDwarves: I find it fascinating just how Christian his mythology is at times
ArPharazonV: it has parts of many religions, I don't think he liked it compared to any specific one
VardaValar1: Anything done works with the theme eventually. Even if it intended to go off on its own, as did Morgoth's.
VardaValar1: Beorn was saying just parts, so you are in agreement.
TwoSurlyDwarves: Yep =)
ArPharazonV: true :-)
TwoSurlyDwarves: I'm a polytheist, and definitely not biased to finding Christianity in his work - I find it equally enjoyable to find parallels to other religions as well
AriehnV: Ok people :-) I am afraid it has to be that time again
TwoSurlyDwarves: The fact that one author can resonate on so many levels with so many different people is fascinating
VardaValar1: Good night, Arien. Be careful on your way
AriehnV: fairly tired i have to admit,
ArPharazonV: Namarie Arien!
AriehnV: good night all
TwoSurlyDwarves: good night Ariehn
excelsiorjss: g'night
AriehnV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: I hear Tilion nearly gets lost going through the caverns. : )
VardaValar1: Doors of Night should be easier.
AriehnV: i ll never get him .. b. rd
AriehnV: /-)
AriehnV: :-)
AriehnV has left the room.
FladrifV: *waves a branch* namarie all, I promise not to become treeish
VardaValar1: Not completely at least? : )
excelsiorjss: heh
excelsiorjss: peace
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Flad! Don't become a Huorn!
FladrifV: maybe that will bring some quickness arpha
Russ82275: I see alot of Christian elements too, but I also see alot of elements from mythology as well. I took a Mythology course last semester, and really the myths we read were loaded with what seemed to be Christian elements too.
Russ82275: I guess his linguistic work in his proffessional life led him towards the oral tradition epics, as his childhood led him to christianity
VardaValar1: A lot of the old myths were written down by Christian priests as they had the education to do so.
Russ82275: exactly Var
TwoSurlyDwarves: Snorri Sturlusson for example was a Christian
TwoSurlyDwarves: His Prose Edda has all sorts of things not in the Poetic Eddas
VardaValar1: JRRT was fascinated by the Nordic and Finnish tales, one reason we have so many Scandinavian members. : )
excelsiorjss: that's true
VardaValar1: He taught Beowulf just about every year.
VardaValar1: Taught it to his students, not taught Beowulf. About to get in trouble here. ;-)
TwoSurlyDwarves: lol
excelsiorjss: argh use correct object :-)
VardaValar1: *eyes mace.* Oh, not that object.
TwoSurlyDwarves: There you go with my kenning again
VardaValar1: hehe
TwoSurlyDwarves: lol
VardaValar1: Sorry, side-chats going.
excelsiorjss: eh, it'll happen :-)
VardaValar1: Perpetually, aye. : )
TwoSurlyDwarves: I would *never* do anything else during guild chat
TwoSurlyDwarves: *quickly closes his LotRO window*
ArPharazonV: sorry, just browsing, I try to stay out of any discussion involving religion because I tend to lose control of my opinion :-)
VardaValar1: Excelsior, did you have a chance to see our site? It's a Tolkien fan's dream. : )
VardaValar1: Phar, good plan for all of us.
VardaValar1: then click Tolkien
TwoSurlyDwarves: If you ever want to talk about it one on one, feel free to message me, Ar-P
excelsiorjss: I looked at it for a moment, i'm actually there now
Glorfindel VG: largest source of tolkien info on the net
Glorfindel VG: and some great art and stories
VardaValar1: Beorn, one on one with me on it. I also run a Folklore & Mythology site. ;-)
ArPharazonV: actually, you do interest me because I don't think I've met a polytheist before... but we should not start that here :-)
excelsiorjss: 119 is a lot of people
VardaValar1: We dropped 50 a year for inactivity
VardaValar1: With AIM we haven't had to drop so many. : )
Glorfindel VG: 9 years is a long time : )
excelsiorjss: that too
FladrifV has left the room.
VardaValar1: So if you figure in all the people who have been in here, the number gets pretty high.
excelsiorjss: yes
VardaValar1: To have that many active is good in my opinion.
excelsiorjss: who is the webmaster?
VardaValar1: For Tolkien, that would be me.
excelsiorjss: ah
excelsiorjss: nice
VardaValar1: Eonwe is the one for the Games.
excelsiorjss: ah
VardaValar1: So we are both here
VardaValar1: but
VardaValar1: some handle areas of it
VardaValar1: Lungorthin handles the Book Review area
VardaValar1: Menelvagor handles the Humor area
VardaValar1: We all work together and are friends.
excelsiorjss: nice
VardaValar1: Several members give web space free so we have a lot of freedom.
excelsiorjss: that is quite nice
VardaValar1: We have members who have been here from the beginning.
excelsiorjss: excellent
Glorfindel VG: which ones?
VardaValar1: Get me started talking about the guild and you may need earplugs. : )
excelsiorjss: I assume you Varda?
VardaValar1: Aye, I am one
excelsiorjss: that is
Glorfindel VG: Eonew and you and who else?
excelsiorjss: you, Varda
excelsiorjss: lol
VardaValar1: Manwe started it with Eru. Manwe is in the chat room right now.
VardaValar1: You can look on the Members page for join dates :-)
excelsiorjss: ah
Eonwe Valar: Speaking of the Games Page, just finished updating.
VardaValar1: Go Eonwe!
VardaValar1: That is quite a chore!
VardaValar1: I was just playing with Melkor and Orome, who are from the beginning
VardaValar1: We were in LotRO
excelsiorjss: ah
VardaValar1: Merry came in very close to the beginning, and all my family and friends
Glorfindel VG: almost 10 years now right
VardaValar1: Ulmo, Sam, Tulkas are still around
VardaValar1: Aye
excelsiorjss: nice
VardaValar1: Oct. 4, 1997
VardaValar1: That's when Eru and Manwe reformed the guild into what it is now, a very Tolkien-oriented group.
Glorfindel VG: in 1997 i barely even knew what the internet was hehe
VardaValar1: It is not all we do, but it gives us our theme. : )
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Excelsior, you are mostly into the Silmarillion or what?
excelsiorjss: I am moreso into LOTR, I have only read the Silmarillion in bits
VardaValar1: ahh ok
VardaValar1: Read the Hobbit too?
excelsiorjss: earlier, before Glorfindel pulled me into the chatroom, we were actually talking about reading the Adventures of Tom Bombadil
excelsiorjss: yes
excelsiorjss: although it's been a while
excelsiorjss: since I've read through either the Hobbit or LotR
VardaValar1: What do you think of JRRT's lifting Tom and dropping him into the LotR? Did he do it well?
VardaValar1: Maybe improved on Tom?
excelsiorjss: well, it depends upon what you consider to be "doing it well"
excelsiorjss: he encouraged the first-time reader to look more into the adventures of tom bombadil
VardaValar1: Did Tom fit into the LotR in a way that made good reading? :-)
excelsiorjss: but
excelsiorjss: yes
excelsiorjss: most definitely
excelsiorjss: he(JRRT) left enough to the imagination
excelsiorjss: to make it good reading
Glorfindel VG: jolly and enigmatic at the same time
excelsiorjss: it was not too explicit
VardaValar1: Aye. : )
VardaValar1: Very powerful.
excelsiorjss: yes
VardaValar1: Yet he did not have power outside his realm or over the Black Rider.
Glorfindel VG: we've covered some good discussions about mr bombadil in here
excelsiorjss: yes?
VardaValar1: The Ring had no power over him because he was not ambitious.
VardaValar1: *Riders
VardaValar1: His Song power really reminds one of the Silmarillion where we see what Song can do.
VardaValar1: Finrod and Sauron battled in song.
excelsiorjss: yes, the duel
VardaValar1: Luthien sang to Morgoth, and he lost a silmaril. Luthien sang to Namo and he felt compassion.
Russ82275: also Luthien's song that made morgoth sleep
Russ82275: yeah
VardaValar1: Aye, Manwe
VardaValar1: Song made everything existing.
excelsiorjss: What if Sauron had, in fact lost that duel
VardaValar1: One can hear the Song of Creation in the waters best.
VardaValar1: Morgoth was the one in charge at the time, not Sauron. But that is interesting.
VardaValar1: Sauron has been defeated a few times, but comes back.
Russ82275: yeah, there were alot of neat things going on with old Tom, thats why it's probably best not to reduce him to one definition, I mean thats how I look at it
excelsiorjss: argh
excelsiorjss: yes
VardaValar1: It would have helped a lot at the time!
excelsiorjss: Tom is quite abstract
VardaValar1: Tom being called a Maia doesn't tie him down much. : )
VardaValar1: Some Maiar are almost equal to the Valar.
Russ82275: I think there is a little contradiction with that still though
Russ82275: like being first and fatherless
Russ82275: etc
VardaValar1: What do you see as the contradiction?
Glorfindel VG: is that the conclusion that Tom is a Maia?
VardaValar1: Fatherless, a Maia is fatherless.
Russ82275: but not first
VardaValar1: Consider this fun bit. He was like a shepherd of the trees.
Russ82275: I like that
VardaValar1: He may have been one of those that Yavanna wanted to protect her trees.
VardaValar1: She did not have to be restricted to Ents.
VardaValar1: She also had Maiar of her own.
VardaValar1: Other Maiar are known to have walked the earth, such as Melian.
Russ82275: hmm, I dunno var, I just think that Tom was something altogether different from the Valar, or any other sentients in Middle-earth
Glorfindel VG: maybe just the first born to middle earth
Glorfindel VG: before the elves and everything
Glorfindel VG: as a sort of prototype life form
Glorfindel VG: hehe
Russ82275: I think before the valar even
VardaValar1: He was a spirit of nature, that would put him pretty squarely with Yavanna.
TwoSurlyDwarves: I've heard the theory that he was a manifestation of Eru
VardaValar1: Eru came first. Then he made the Ainur. Maiar are included in the Ainur.
VardaValar1: JRRT said definitely that Tom was not Eru.
VardaValar1: He said Eru did not take a bodily form.
Glorfindel VG: Eru's power is limitless anyhow
Glorfindel VG: not so with bombadil obviously
VardaValar1: Eru would have cared, Tom did not care much outside his bailiwick.
Russ82275: yeah, its really hard for me to explain, I dont have the vocabulary. But i dont define Tom in terms of the Valar or any other creatures. I just think he was his own entity
Russ82275: no, I dont think he was Eru either
VardaValar1: Don't restrict the idea of Maiar too much. They were amazing beings.
Russ82275: I agree var, but somehow I think Tom was different still
VardaValar1: A spirit of the earth or of seasons would still be a Maia.
VardaValar1: Ok, but we only have so many categories of things existing in Middle-earth.
Glorfindel VG: in that case, how about goldberry then
TwoSurlyDwarves: we don't know that, Varda
VardaValar1: Whom are you asking? :-)
Sarujil has left the room.
VardaValar1: Ok, why can't Tom and Goldberry be in the Maiar category?
VardaValar1: or in the Shepherds category?
Glorfindel VG: Maiar category seems the most likely I think
TwoSurlyDwarves has left the room.
VardaValar1: Maiar coming into the earth before other things were made were certainly in the First category.
VardaValar1: But if we say he was the First as a Shepherd type, that might work also.
TwoSurlyDwarves has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Rough day in the connection world?
TwoSurlyDwarves: I think that a big part of the "point" of Tom is that he's not classifiable
VardaValar1: VardaValar1: Maiar coming into the earth before other things were made were certainly in the First category.
TwoSurlyDwarves: Only with AIM
VardaValar1: VardaValar1: But if we say he was the First as a Shepherd type, that might work also.
VardaValar1: Or we just don't want to classify him?
VardaValar1: We could also say we lack data. : )
Glorfindel VG: Many of the Ainur seemed to have some power located within a certain jurisdiction
TwoSurlyDwarves: It's like trying to decide what sort European a Japanese man is
VardaValar1: We can also just say he was a lift from another story tacked in messily.
excelsiorjss: yeah, that is possible
excelsiorjss: but
excelsiorjss: I dont feel it was messy, I like the freedom to speculate to some extent
VardaValar1: JRRT said he was lifted from another story and put in to make an adventure where he wanted it.
VardaValar1: Then speculate. Just saying he's not something is side-stepping. What is he?
excelsiorjss: always asking questions
excelsiorjss: hmm...
Russ82275: I think he has a place in the LotR, but like I said I dont define him in terms of the Valar and other spirits
ArPharazonV: if he was first, he is either an integral part of the world, or something from outside and older alltogether
Glorfindel VG: the maiar all would have had an interest in the Ring though wouldnt they Varda?
VardaValar1: Older than what?
VardaValar1: Radagast didn't
TwoSurlyDwarves: The Balrog doesn't seem to have either
Glorfindel VG: hehe
ArPharazonV: older than the Children, older than the building of Arda by the Valar
Russ82275: now Phar is on to something, that's what I mean "an integral part of the world"...yes of course that's it
ArPharazonV: older than the Song?
VardaValar1: Eru is the only one older than the Ainur. The Ainur were the next to exist.
Eonwe Valar: If he's older than the song he's an Ainu.
Russ82275: I disagree
VardaValar1: Integral part of the world means what?
VardaValar1: With what basis do you disagree?
Russ82275: remember after the song was done, eru showed them the plain world, and he sent them into it
VardaValar1: And the world did not yet exist. They had to make it.
Russ82275: now I think that Tom was in this plain world before the valar came
ArPharazonV: it means he has a place in its creation, that he's part of the Song, part of Creation, that he can be classified by definition
Glorfindel VG: Are you saying Tom wasn't created by Eru at all?
TwoSurlyDwarves: like the Eagles
TwoSurlyDwarves: part of the world
Russ82275: I dont think the Valar created the word, they shaped it
Russ82275: because remember eru showed them the world after the song, and sent them into it
Russ82275: and it was plain when they first arrived
Russ82275: I think Tom was already there
Eonwe Valar: The Song created Ea, but Eru made it real.
ArPharazonV: if he existed in the empty world before the Valar came to shape it, if they had no part in his making... then Tom was either created by Eru alone, or he was created by something other than Eru alltogether
Russ82275: sort of an outgrowth of the song or eru's creation
VardaValar1: Behold your Music! And he showed to them a vision" They saw a world and its history and wanted it to be.
ArPharazonV: he made Tom an easter egg for the Valar to discover when they started shaping the world? ;-)
excelsiorjss: lol
Russ82275: lol, well I suppose I cant explain my point of view very well, I just dont think Tom was Maia or Vala, or anything like them at all
VardaValar1: If there had been a plain world there, then yes
VardaValar1: Tom could have been a part of it then.
VardaValar1: But there was not.
Russ82275: to paraphrase Tolkien on Tom, "even in a fantastic world there will always be enigmas"
Russ82275: enigma is something that connot be defined
VardaValar1: Ok, Tom is an Enigma and cannot be defined, yet we are humans, and we try to understand all that we see.
VardaValar1: We make the attempt even if we fail gloriously.
Russ82275: that is because we live in a rational world, but Tom is irrational, he breaks all the rules
Glorfindel VG: one thing that is certain though is that the ring had no power in him or over him, which is unlike a Maia
VardaValar1: No world present.
excelsiorjss: glorious failure is awesome
ArPharazonV: it is like he is part of the world, and yet isn't
VardaValar1: "But when the Valar entered into Ea they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if
Glorfindel VG: I wonder how old fatty lumpkin is
VardaValar1: "naught had been made which they had seen in vision"
excelsiorjss: haha
Russ82275: thats my point Var
Eonwe Valar: How is the Ring having no power over him unlike a Maia?
Russ82275: the world was plain
Russ82275: I think Tom was an outgrowth of Eru's creation, that plain rock that he caused to be
Glorfindel VG: The ring seemed to be significant to all the others
Glorfindel VG: and were still affected by its power
Glorfindel VG: even gandalf couldnt see bilbo when he vanished
Glorfindel VG: etc
Eonwe Valar: Gandalf was trapped in a mortal body.
ArPharazonV: "it was as if naught had been made which they had seen in vision"
ArPharazonV: "it was as if"
excelsiorjss: just a little something I found
Eonwe Valar: That's my university :}
ArPharazonV: maybe he was indeed there, when the world began, but the Valar did not see him :-)
excelsiorjss: doesnt really offer answers, but
VardaValar1: I read Hargrove. I am not impressed particularly.
excelsiorjss: lol
VardaValar1: Cool that it is your university : )
ArPharazonV: maybe he was that powerful, that independent, that the Valar themselves did not take him into account
excelsiorjss: I'm not impressed with the background
Russ82275: you have to remember too, that all beings in Tolkien's world saught some sort of power. Even the Valar...Tom did not
Eonwe Valar: = University of North Texzas :}
excelsiorjss: on the website
excelsiorjss: ah
Eonwe Valar: That guy's a University Professor :}
VardaValar1: I know lots of university professors. : )
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, the Valar did not seek power so far as I recall.
excelsiorjss: yep
Glorfindel VG: melkor certainly did :-)
Russ82275: yes, they saught to balance out morgoth's evil
VardaValar1: Morgoth sought power. But he is no longer counted amongst the Valar.
Eonwe Valar: Melkor is an exception.
excelsiorjss: lol, are you a professor Varda?
Russ82275: and recall, they tried to control the Noldor
VardaValar1: No, but I could've been.
excelsiorjss: ah, nice
MrMonkey2002Blah has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Manwë' sounds like you've been reading Morgoth's spin :}
Russ82275: no
Russ82275: even the good guys were after some sort of control
Russ82275: Tom was not
Eonwe Valar: They didn't try to control the Noldor.
Russ82275: lets see, dont go back to middle earth
Russ82275: thats not control?
VardaValar1: They did not force Feanor to give up the light.
Eonwe Valar: They counselled the Noldor not to go back to Middle-Earth.
VardaValar1: They were allowed to return to Middle-earth.
Eonwe Valar: Counsel is different from control.
Russ82275: even still, they were imposing their will on them, however suggestively and whatever their intent was
Eonwe Valar: Even though the Elves have decided that even Counsel can be dangerous.
Eonwe Valar: The Valar were the rightful rulers of Ea.
Russ82275: rulers
VardaValar1: When Feanor said no he would not allow his silmarils to be broken to release the light, they accepted it.
Russ82275: thats an intersesting word
Russ82275: rulers, I like that
Russ82275: that suggests control
Eonwe Valar: Manwë was appointed to be the first king.
Russ82275: and that is my point
VardaValar1: Manwe was the King of Arda. The Valar did make Arda as in making the lands, water, and air.
Russ82275: even the good guys used some sort of control
VardaValar1: They considered the Children of Eru to be their brothers.
Russ82275: whether appointed or with good intention
Russ82275: they still used or saught control
Russ82275: Tom did not
Russ82275: hence why he is not related to any other spirit in middle earth
VardaValar1: Manwe would not attack the Second born Men of Pharazon because they were children of Eru, and asked dad to step in.
Eonwe Valar: Tom was acknolwedged as the master by all living things in his realm. Is that not control?
VardaValar1: ''Manwe has no thought for his own honour, and is not jealous of his power, but rules all to peace''
Eonwe Valar: He could tell Old Man Willow to give up the Hobbits, and Old Man Willow obeyed.
VardaValar1: Article you wrote.
Russ82275: ah well, I still think Tom is different
VardaValar1: Tom is an individual, an extreme one, for sure!
VardaValar1: One thing you can go with is something like fallout, the way some claim Ungoliant is, from the creation.
VardaValar1: But I still consider Ungoliant a Maia. ;-)
Russ82275: thats what I said, Tom is an outgrowth of Eru's creating
Eonwe Valar: I don't disagree that Tom may be of a different order than the Ainur, but to say the Good guys sought control I completely disagree.
VardaValar1: I can go with Tom being of a different order, possibly.
Russ82275: ask the dunlendings if they like their pushy straw head neighbors
VardaValar1: The Valar were very into freedom of choice, free will.
VardaValar1: That is what set them apart from Morgoth or Sauron's way of thinking.
Russ82275: they imposed their will quite a bit too though
VardaValar1: They had Bilbo place his hand on the Ring. Very likely.
VardaValar1: But "quite a bit" no.
Eonwe Valar: After the destruction of the Lamps, the Valar let Morgoth go about his businees until the Elves awoke. Then and only then did they try to stop him.
VardaValar1: They were not willing to let the Elves be hurt by their attempts to stop Morgoth, as they did not know where Eru had placed them.
Eonwe Valar: The Valar made rulings on that which fell in their jurisdiction.
VardaValar1: How did they impose their will, Manwe?
Russ82275: I think mainly with the elves
Russ82275: I think they really mismanaged the elves as a whole, and melkor exploited it
VardaValar1: They did make an error with the elves, trying to protect them from Morgoth by bringing them to safety in Valinor.
Russ82275: they said, hey come live with us, but only by these rules
Russ82275: and never never go back
VardaValar1: They did not say never never go back that I can find.
Eonwe Valar: "Freely ye came, and freely ye may depart."
VardaValar1: They even left a batch in Middle-earth.
Russ82275: maybe not quite like that, but they sure told the Noldor, "dont let the door hit you in the rear when you leave"
VardaValar1: Feanor was pretty insulting. : )
Russ82275: there should be a "but" after that sentence, read further eonwe
Eonwe Valar: They exiled Fëanor. The other Noldor were free to stay or go. Many chose to follow Fëanor into exile. Others led by FInarfin stayed in Aman.
Russ82275: Mandos steps in
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Russ82275: why did they exile feanor?
VardaValar1: Mandos foretold the future.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, I was quoting from memory, but I will open my Sil now.
Russ82275: they were exerting their control
Russ82275: If we cant have the silmarils, then you cant live in aman
Russ82275: it's really petty
Russ82275: they were using their control
Russ82275: they had control to not let things go that far
Russ82275: but they did
VardaValar1: Now you are forcing us to quote the books, but you need to quote to show that.
Russ82275: ok
Russ82275: lemme get my Sil
excelsiorjss: lol
VardaValar1: Good deal. We are all digging out stuff. : )
excelsiorjss: of course
VardaValar1: And we are good buddies, Excelsior : )
excelsiorjss: unfortunately mine are at home
excelsiorjss: haha
Eonwe Valar: The Valar's decision on the Noldor had nothing to do with the Silmaril, and certainly Aulë of all people would've spoken against exile for such a reason.,
Eonwe Valar: *Silmarilli
ArPharazonV: hmm... why and when exactly *did* the Valar exile Feanor?
Eonwe Valar: "Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest
ArPharazonV: was it the slaughter of Alqualonde? the oath?
excelsiorjss: hmm
Eonwe Valar: ;but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know; as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart.
VardaValar1: It was Feanor's idea to leave to start with. Then he tried to drag everyone with him.
ArPharazonV: yes, it was, but they also exiled him to not come back :-)
Eonwe Valar: But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist;
ArPharazonV: ah, the oath
excelsiorjss: It's been nice chatting with you guys, but I've gotta run...I'm famished
Eonwe Valar: Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea, not though Eru whom though namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art."
excelsiorjss: it's 8:30
Eonwe Valar: Take care excelsior
ArPharazonV: 2:35 for me, I should go to bed soon :-)
excelsiorjss: woah
excelsiorjss: where are you?
excelsiorjss: lol
Eonwe Valar: That quote was from a herald from Manwë.
excelsiorjss: heh
Eonwe Valar: it does not say who carried the message.
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VardaValar1: Some Eonwe guy
VardaValar1: my guess
ArPharazonV: that would be likely :-)
Eonwe Valar: Fëanor's response: "Say this to Manwë Sulimo, High King of Arda:
Eonwe Valar: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief.
Eonwe Valar: And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the might in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it.
Eonwe Valar: Yea, in the end they shall follow me. Farewell!"
ArPharazonV: hmm.. "not though Eru whom though names had made thee thrice greater than thou art."... I knew that sounded familiar
Eonwe Valar: Even Fëanor acknowledges Manwë's authority.
ArPharazonV: in the first level of an RPG pc game called Rage of Mages 2, the main character, basically lvl 1, can come across a dragon who is the servant of the wizard he's about to visit.... and the dragon says
ArPharazonV: that you couldn't fight him "were you ten times greater than you are"
ArPharazonV: never realized that could be a Tolkien reference :-)
Eonwe Valar: The difference between the good guys and the bad guys is one of rightful rule/authority.
VardaValar1: So it was the oath that got him exiled.
ArPharazonV: indeed it was
VardaValar1: It caused a huge amount of misery. And it took away freedom of choice as all oaths do.
ArPharazonV: and even if the Valar would be willing to turn around their judgement, I bet the fight at Alqualonde didn't do him any good :-)
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, getting an error message.
VardaValar1: The Teleri were none too happy with him afterwards.
Russ82275: I'll give you that, but even still they still saught some sort of control, they didnt have to ban feanor, the same way Gondor didnt need to bump the dunlendings out of Rohan
Eonwe Valar: Frodo certainly did not seek for power or control. That was the chief lure of the Ring.
VardaValar1: Aye, they could have squished Feanor.
VardaValar1: Banning was rather gentle of them.
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Eonwe Valar: Calenardhon was a part of Gondor.
VardaValar1: Aye, it was.
Eonwe Valar: They had the right to give leave to Rohan to live there, and to give the land to Rohan to rule as they desired.
ArPharazonV: is dishing out punishment an expression of control, no matter the crime/deed that deserves the punishment?
Russ82275: I think so
VardaValar1: Aye, it is.
ArPharazonV: then the Valar exercized control by exiling Feanor, no matter the oath
Eonwe Valar: It's an expression of authority.
ArPharazonV: what's the difference? :-)
VardaValar1: And was it not their right?
VardaValar1: Wasn't the original bit that they were being petty?
Eonwe Valar: The difference is control can be exercised by someone who may not have legitimate authority.
ArPharazonV: but if it *is* exercised by someone who has legitimate authority...
VardaValar1: When one has the right and a good reason, it is not petty.
ArPharazonV: it's still control, right?
VardaValar1: Aye, but the original question was were they being petty about what they did?
Russ82275: I think the Valar were petty the way they dealt with Feanor
VardaValar1: And we disagree.
VardaValar1: He was removed because of the Oath.
ArPharazonV: I thought the original question was about the Valar seeking/exercising control, or did I miss something? :-)
Eonwe Valar: So how should the Valar have dealt with Fëanor?
Russ82275: I mean look at the opening arguments, Manwe is really pushy with Feanor, and Aule cautions him
Russ82275: Speak now!
VardaValar1: pushy?
Russ82275: he says
Russ82275: something like that
Russ82275: yes
Russ82275: then he flaunts his power
VardaValar1: Ok, Aule does say you ask a greater thing than thou knowest.
Russ82275: "who can deny Yavanna, she is a Vala"
Russ82275: something like that
Russ82275: he is telling Feanor
VardaValar1: But that was Tulkas at the end of his tether, not Manwe.
Eonwe Valar: That would be Tulks saying that as I recall, and he's not the best guy for Counsel.
Russ82275: we are greater than you, listen up pip
VardaValar1: I'm looking at it. That is Tulkas.
Russ82275: how could they have handled Feanor?
ArPharazonV: then did Tulkas seek control for Yavanna, or for the Valar including himself?
VardaValar1: He reminded Feanor that the light originally belonged to Yavanna, not to Feanor.
ArPharazonV: control? authority? respect?
ArPharazonV: can you request respect without seeking control?
Russ82275: well Feanor says this much...
Eonwe Valar: Manwë says, "Hearest thou, Fëanor son of Finwë, the words of Yavanna? WIlt thou grant what she would ask?"
VardaValar1: They did not punish Feanor for saying no.
Russ82275: something about assailing Morgoth while Manwe sits idle and weeps, I think theres some truth to that
VardaValar1: Manwe had a time when he was supposed to come down and assail Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: Could Tulkas' words not just be out of anger towards Melkor and grief for the pain already caused? Must they be Tulkas vying for control?
Eonwe Valar: I quoted that part earlier Manwë, if you want to scroll up.
VardaValar1: Tulkas was at the end of his tether.
Russ82275: I have the sil open, thanks
Eonwe Valar: ok
VardaValar1: For anyone reading the transcript, this is the Sil, "Of the Flight of the Noldor"
Russ82275: well they really mismanaged that situation, they should have led by action and not words
VardaValar1: So what do you think the action should have been?
Russ82275: instead, they bickered with Feanor
Russ82275: who knows?
Russ82275: maybe set to task to building new light
VardaValar1: They did build new light.
Eonwe Valar: They did try that.
Russ82275: i mean immediately
Eonwe Valar: They tried reviving the Trees.
Russ82275: ><
Eonwe Valar: Yavanna says herslef that some things even the Valar can do but only once.
Eonwe Valar: *herself
Russ82275: well I guess I just see the whole of middle-earth in a different light than you
VardaValar1: The sun came up as Fingolfin set foot on Middle-earth.
Russ82275: I still think Manwe prodded Feanor
Russ82275: and I still think Tom was not maia or vala
VardaValar1: Fingolfin's people blew their trumpets at the rising of the Moon.
Russ82275: im sorry I dont have to vocabulary to describe it
VardaValar1: Ok, Tom may not have been Maia
VardaValar1: Manwe was not the one prodding Feanor, but Tulkas did a little.
Russ82275: hold on...
ArPharazonV: hmm... so he was not Maia, not Vala, not created by Maia of Vala, and not part of the Children... unless he really was the first of those
VardaValar1: We have struggled with these questions a long time, had to come up with our best answers.
Eonwe Valar: I don't see how Manwë prodded Fëanor. Fëanor was a known troublemaker already, drawing a weapon against his own brother earlier because of Morgoth's lies. They saw him as the chief problem behind the darknening of Valinor,..
Eonwe Valar: not yet perceiving Melkor's hand in all of it.
VardaValar1: Tom might have been a Shepherd.
Eonwe Valar: They = the Valar
ArPharazonV: created by a Vala to guard and reside over a certain aspect of middle-earth?
ArPharazonV: like the Ents?
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar.
Russ82275: no, I dont think created by a vala, I think created by Eru
VardaValar1: Created in a general sense, by the idea of the Shepherds.
Russ82275: ok Eonwe, Im sorry Tulkas prodded Feanor
ArPharazonV: only created in the song?
VardaValar1: So that would have been Yavanna, possibly in combination with Manwe. "Aule and Yavanna"
Russ82275: I think the song was only a glimpse of things to come
VardaValar1: yes, the song was a vision of things to come
Russ82275: Eru created the plain world and sent the valar into it to fulfill the song
VardaValar1: Eru set the theme and had the Valar add to it.
ArPharazonV: maybe the Valar created him with the Song, but when the world was actually created, Eru already put him there when the Valar started shaping?
VardaValar1: There was not yet a solid world.
Russ82275: so I think Tom was an outgrowth of Eru's creating the plain world
ArPharazonV: perhaps, yes
Russ82275: the Valar did not create the world
VardaValar1: Only in an extremely general sense.
Russ82275: they shaped it
ArPharazonV: it would explain why he would be part of and yet not of the world that the Valar shaped from the plain world
ArPharazonV: because he was there before the shaping?
Russ82275: and it would also explain why he was first
ArPharazonV: yes
VardaValar1: By plain world, it sounds like you mean a solid thing already present. Which it was not.
Russ82275: because Tom says he was there before the Dark lord came from outside
Russ82275: and we know that melkor was first into middle-earth
VardaValar1: The Dark Lord left for a while. Morgoth. Came back.
VardaValar1: That would suggest Tom came during that interim period.
Russ82275: i disagree
Russ82275: thats a curious word
VardaValar1: That is your privilege.
Russ82275: "outside"
ArPharazonV: if the Dark Lord at that point meant Sauron, it could mean Sauron actually arrived rather late as a servant of Aule
ArPharazonV: after Tom was already there
VardaValar1: No, it was Morgoth at that time being the Dark Lord.
Russ82275: but thats odd to use a word like "outside"
ArPharazonV: not when Tom used the word Dark Lord, no?
ArPharazonV: wasn't that in the time when Sauron was the Dark Lord that he referenced the Dark Lord?
Eonwe Valar: Tom I belive said "first Dark Lord"
Eonwe Valar: *believe
ArPharazonV: ah, ok :-)
VardaValar1: Morgoth left Arda, so that was outside.
VardaValar1: He came back in a terrible form because that was what his mind was like by then.
VardaValar1: He did not remain there.
Russ82275: Varda, what do you mean the plain world did not exist?
ArPharazonV: she means it wasn't a solid world, more like an empty... universe, I'd say
ArPharazonV: not actually hard rock on which Tom could have walked :-)
ArPharazonV: at least, I think she means that
Russ82275: right
Russ82275: well depends on how you look at it
VardaValar1: Mellor fled before Tulkas and brooded in the outer darkness.
Russ82275: flame imperishable, at the heart of the world
Russ82275: that sort of thing
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VardaValar1: ok, backing up to that again.
VardaValar1: That last was The Beginning of Days
ArPharazonV: hmm... if Eru set the flame imperishable at the heart of the world before the Valar got there
VardaValar1: right at the beginning of it.
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ArPharazonV: and it was the flame that had the power to create
VardaValar1: ok, ok, I'll quote that soon as I get it
ArPharazonV: could Tom not have merely been an immediate byproduct of the flame's setting? ;-)
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ArPharazonV: Aiyata, both
TwoSurlyDwarves: grr - AIM keeps on booting me
excelsiorjss: ditto
excelsiorjss: I just got quite nicely booted
TwoSurlyDwarves: I think I'm going to just stay logged off next time
excelsiorjss: hmm it became rather silent in here
VardaValar1: It's a long quote
excelsiorjss: lol
Russ82275: well think of it like this
VardaValar1: seeing how to show it
Russ82275: the plain world that eru caused to be was called the "World that Is". Gold berry's first descrition of Tom was "He is"
VardaValar1: Goldberry was also making a pun!
VardaValar1: Read JRRT's Letters
Russ82275: so punny
excelsiorjss: heh
VardaValar1: It did not mean the I am that I am. It was a joke referring back to what had just been said.
Russ82275: i dont follow ya Var
VardaValar1: ok, that's ok. We keep jumping around and I'm getting tired. Also being talked to in the real life world.
Russ82275: lol
excelsiorjss: lol
VardaValar1: Ainulindale
excelsiorjss: that does not help the matter
VardaValar1: has the whole thing after Ulmo spoke.
VardaValar1: Feel free to actually read it everybody. :-)

VardaValar1: I'm going to go handle some real life then hope to go play LotRO :-)
ArPharazonV: I think I'll be saying goodnight
excelsiorjss: lol
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VardaValar1: See you guys around!
excelsiorjss: rl isnt fun
VardaValar1: Howdy.
ArPharazonV: I'll save and send
VardaValar1: It can be
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar
Russ82275: gnight all
excelsiorjss: gnight
excelsiorjss: it can, true
VegetableMannn: goodnight
Russ82275: sorry if I ruffled anyone's feathers
excelsiorjss: it is what you make of it :-)
Russ82275: all in healthy discussion I hope
Russ82275: gnight all
Eonwe Valar: Think I'll call it here too. Might try to get some of my other LotRO chars in the branch.
excelsiorjss: yessir
excelsiorjss: haha
VegetableMannn: jason
VardaValar1: I'd love to see you there :-)
excelsiorjss: I haven't touched LotRO yet
Eonwe Valar: Heated discussion is better than no discussion :}
VardaValar1: I love LotRO
excelsiorjss: yes marc?
VardaValar1: It was a good discussion, sorry I couldn't keep on with it.
Russ82275: im sorry my vocabulary sucks
excelsiorjss: one of my classmates was/is a beta tester
excelsiorjss: lol
VardaValar1: We are on Landroval server
VardaValar1: I was in from the beginning of Beta 1
excelsiorjss: nice
excelsiorjss: I was not so lucky
Eonwe Valar: I was in at some point in the second round I think.
excelsiorjss: I still havent bought it, let alone played it
VardaValar1: Luck had only a little to do with it. :-)
excelsiorjss: :/
excelsiorjss: haha
Russ82275: night all
TwoSurlyDwarves: I'm playing as we speak
excelsiorjss: good night
excelsiorjss: nice
VardaValar1: Good night
excelsiorjss: enjoy :-)
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VardaValar1: Can't on this comp :-)
excelsiorjss: heh
TwoSurlyDwarves: fighting bandits south of staddle - lots of fun
VardaValar1: Watch for Arien
VardaValar1: She's dl'ing Turbine and hopes to join us in Landroval :-)
VardaValar1: Namarie
excelsiorjss: lol
TwoSurlyDwarves: anice
TwoSurlyDwarves: not anice, nice I mean
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Eonwe Valar: Ok, I'll leave it here. Take care all, good night, sleep well, and have fun.
excelsiorjss: alright, ditto
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
excelsiorjss: Namárië
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