Valar Guild

September 24, 2006 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon-(V) and Varda-(Valar)

Attending (18):
    Members: ArathornValar, Arwen-(V), Ancalagon-(V)/Sarujil, ArPharazonV, CaranthirV, Elladan-(V)Bior the Ythling, Eonwe Valar (presiding), FinduilasV, FladrifV, Gil-galad-(V)/Xseanzee disco, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet, Glorfindel-(V)/Glorfindel VG, Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth-(V)/Oessala, Scatha-(V)/STEvilaim, VardaValar1
    Guests: Lokiey1054 (wants to join), Srekal86

Meeting begins
    New book by Christopher Tolkien coming out "Children of Hurin"
    Makar and Measse
    Valar siblings and spouses in general
    The Vala of Time
    More on the upcoming "Children of Hurin"
    The upcoming film "The Hobbit"

ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arathorn :}
Eonwe Valar: Heya Phar :}
ArPharazonV: hey Arathorn!
ArathornValar: heya, bouncing around
Eonwe Valar: It seems to have started with their forums and jumped to their pages.
ArPharazonV: what? who? what did I miss?
ArPharazonV: I have the time right? or am I an hour late?
Eonwe Valar: You're on time :}
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
Menelvagor Valar: actually, Phar was 2 minutes and 22 seconds late.
Menelvagor Valar: Arathorn was 1 minute 26 seconds late
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: and Arwn exactly 1 minute
ArPharazonV: *slaps Menel*
VardaValar1: Pardon, in the middle of making a car reservation :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Varda is 4 minutes and 57 seconds late :P
ArPharazonV: actually, according to my computer, I was 1 minute and 38 seconds late
STEvilaim: XD
Menelvagor Valar: <<--- was slapped at 17:05:13 EST exactly.
FinduilasV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: *sigh*
FinduilasV: Aiya friends
FinduilasV: :-)
Menelvagor Valar: (17:02:22) ArPharazonV has entered the room. <<--- proof
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: back
ArPharazonV: (23:01:38) You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
STEvilaim: [15:01] *** ArPharazonV has joined the chat.
Eonwe Valar: wb and heya all who entered while I was updating the GP news.
Eonwe Valar: It's called "Local Time" guys :}
STEvilaim: :p
Bior the Ythling has entered the room.
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
Star of Phaet: gosh, where does the day go?
Star of Phaet: Aiya :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Pharzie and I are technically at the same local time :)
VardaValar1: That was the swoosh that just went by, Gilraen
ArPharazonV: yes, but Menel's pc is off *nod*
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
Xseanzee disco: hey : )
VardaValar1: aiya Gil-galad
Sarujil has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: True Pharzie, my PC *was* off.
VardaValar1: Aiya Ancalagon
Menelvagor Valar: 46 seconds off to be precise.
FinduilasV: Am i here?
Menelvagor Valar: you're here Finduilas :)
VardaValar1: You are here, Finduilas :-)
FinduilasV: *laughs*]
Menelvagor Valar: just synced my comp to the Atomic Clock :P
ArPharazonV: well... the atomic clock is wrong too!
VardaValar1: Now we know : )
Menelvagor Valar: nope, it just calculates time exactly to your location :D
Eonwe Valar: Ok guys, let's begin.
ArPharazonV: ah, so that's it... you're a bit east of me, aren't you? ;-)
VardaValar1: Eonwe will be chairing tonight : )

Eonwe Valar: Elenn Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership News:
Eonwe Valar: Looks like we're got 16 here tonight :} Glad you all could be here :}
FinduilasV: *bows*
Eonwe Valar: Varda has Member news, so her floor.
STEvilaim: glad I woke up before 3pm ;-)
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe
Bior the Ythling has left the room.
VardaValar1: A pat on the back to all who made it, even if they crash out right away
VardaValar1: Bilbo's birthday is today and he wishes you all good fortune and happy hunting and passes cake with ice cream to you.
VardaValar1: I'm done. : )
ArPharazonV: Bilbo's birthday... remarkably close to Bilbo's birthday in the book
FinduilasV: two days late .. i thought 22nd
Eonwe Valar: So, BIlbo's birthday is only a couple days shy of BIlbo's birthday? :}
VardaValar1: Tricky huh? : )
Menelvagor Valar: *Congratulates Bilbo, thanks him for the cake and attacks it with zealous vigor*
VardaValar1: I tried, I tried. : )
ArPharazonV: haha
VardaValar1: He was a really big boy.
Eonwe Valar: :}
FinduilasV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: Happy Birthday Bilbo!
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
FinduilasV: yes me
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Finduilas.
FinduilasV: we moved successfully even though there was confusion with the phone and postcode
Lokiey1054 has entered the room.
FinduilasV: so i could not be here last week
Lokiey1054: Hello all
ArPharazonV: Aiya
FinduilasV: aiya
VardaValar1: Welcome : )
FinduilasV: but we moved to our church and all set up , done
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
STEvilaim: /me has a small peice of member news :P
ArPharazonV: nice church? altar and everything?
STEvilaim: cool.. /me works ;-)
FinduilasV: /me shakes head
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Scatha.
STEvilaim: I got promoted to a moderator position on the forums. nothing huge :p
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
STEvilaim: oh, and I ordered a new laptop.. so gaming will be within my range again ;-)
Eonwe Valar: cool :}

Eonwe Valar: Web News:
Eonwe Valar: Games Page news is updated almost weekly, more when possible, and I encourage you to be checking the Games Page news for times when I may forget to bring some of it up here at the meeting :}
Eonwe Valar: (And make sure you're keeping your gaming info updated :})
Eonwe Valar: Varda has web news concerning the Tolkien parts of our site, all of which she juggles :}
Eonwe Valar: Your floor, Varda :}
VardaValar1: Lokiey, who is here with us, noticed a new book coming out by Christopher Tolkien
VardaValar1: "The Children of Hurin"
VardaValar1: He found an article about it
VardaValar1: still up, as I just checked,
VardaValar1: on_en_ot/books_new_tolkien_1
VardaValar1: Webwork is ongoing on the Stories section of our Tolkien site, trying to make it more organized, possibly affecting bookmarks,
VardaValar1: but I'll let you know when they change, on the News and the Story News.
VardaValar1: Elwing and Finduilas (yes, you) have been affected so far.
VardaValar1: We have a new story up by Finduilas!
VardaValar1: We asked for a Gimli story last meeting and she delivered at high speed
VardaValar1: "Shadow Search"
VardaValar1: Another new story is up by Jay of Lasgalen
VardaValar1: "Setting Forth"
VardaValar1: It's a drabble of exactly 100 words, quite a trick if you've ever tried to do it.
VardaValar1: New art is up by Turgon-(V)
VardaValar1: 4 of them
VardaValar1: and he has another batch in my email that needs to go up. : )
VardaValar1: All of these writers and artists would appreciate a pat on the back if you like any of their efforts, such as an email saying which one caught you interest. : )
VardaValar1: The new art by Turgon is listed at the bottom of his cave with links
VardaValar1: That's my report.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Varda :}
Eonwe Valar: Don't suppose we have any more Guild Web News :}
Eonwe Valar: So on to Gaming!

Eonwe Valar: Gaming News:
Eonwe Valar: Anyone played anything besides WoW this week?
ArPharazonV: well, not really, apart from 5 minutes of bzflag today
ArPharazonV: while waiting for the WoW queue
GwaihirValar: I've been playing 'bedridden' the past two days... not much fun I'm afraid ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
FinduilasV: good old civi 3 me, and a bit bome
FinduilasV: lack of internet :-)
VardaValar1: bome?
FinduilasV: Battle of Middlearth
STEvilaim: starcraft for about 10 minutes
Eonwe Valar: I believe you mean Battle for Middle-Earth, i.e. BfME :}
FinduilasV: i always despair on the balrog . but some day i will get him :-) I believe so lol
Eonwe Valar: Everyone knows EA's working on an Expansion for BfME2, right?
Menelvagor Valar: I played naught but WoW this week (with massive headaches at the end of the day) :P
ArPharazonV: Balrog is fun!
GwaihirValar: and I think its about time for me to go play some more, I'm afraid... take care friends! Been nice, wish I could stick around longer
ArPharazonV: ..if you're playing on the evil side
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Gwai
Menelvagor Valar: Get well soon Gwaihir!
FinduilasV: good night Gwaihir and get better , Gwaihir
GwaihirValar: farewell! I shall try my best! ;-)
VardaValar1: Good night!
FinduilasV: May Elune protect you!
GwaihirValar: gnight :-)
GwaihirValar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, on to WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Guild Questing Report Lothar:
CaranthirV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Eonwë, Varda, Turin, Arathorn, and Merry took another trip to Blackrock Depths. Our goal this time: Marshall Windsor and Bael'gar.
CaranthirV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: First we went to see Marshall Windsor about the Crumpled Up Note. Once he'd seen us and explained our next task, we went to secure a prison cell key for those of us who hadn't got the key yet.
Eonwe Valar: It seems only one key drops at a time, so we will have to return to the key keeper a few more times.
Eonwe Valar: After that, we went back towards the instance door to deal with Bael'gar.
VardaValar1: Forcing us to game, heh.
FinduilasV: Aiya there
Eonwe Valar: We carefully pulled and defeated each groups standing between us and him, with only a couple of close calls and one really tough fight before Bael'gar.
Eonwe Valar: Once we'd cleared out around him, we took on the big guy.
Eonwe Valar: He got us the first round because I'd forgotten about the magma globules he summoned.
Eonwe Valar: Luckily Turin got in a Divine Intervention on Varda so we didn't have to track all the way back. The second round we were better prepared, and took him down. After that, we called it a night.
Menelvagor Valar: Who needs a key if you have a rogue? (300 lockpicking *grins wickedly*)
VardaValar1: We do since you're on Euro!
ArPharazonV: don't believe the shadowforge lock responds well to lockpicking :-)
ArPharazonV: but for the prison cell key, yeah...
Menelvagor Valar: prison does for around 250 lockpicking.
Eonwe Valar: For those interested, we got an offhand orb from the key keeper and a decent 2-handed mace from Bael'gar.
Eonwe Valar: Neither were upgrades for anyone, though, hehe.
VardaValar1: Unless Varda the Priest can find a good one-hander. ;-)
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: <-- has a nice one-hander :)
VardaValar1: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Hammer of Grace has +22ish healing, and we'll likely come across it in search of the Heart of the Mountain :}
Menelvagor Valar:
CaranthirV: The Aurastone hammer is better
FinduilasV: nice ... , > Finduilasse
Menelvagor Valar: on my priest currently.
CaranthirV: on my paly currently
Eonwe Valar: Ok, on with the meeting :}
Eonwe Valar: Any guild news from the European front?
ArPharazonV: oh, sorry, was distracted, in 3 pms
FinduilasV: Well my pali got his class hammer
FinduilasV: and Finduilasse is very proud of it L)
ArPharazonV: great
ArPharazonV: our raidgroup has still been continuing at Faerlina, got her to 6%...
ArPharazonV: maybe next time!
Eonwe Valar: Verigan's Fist is a very nice hammer for a Pally at that level :}
ArPharazonV: I myself have finally gotten my ferocious bite rank 5
Menelvagor Valar: my 28 pally still uses it :)
FinduilasV: yes it is indeed :-) I like it very mcuh
FinduilasV: much
ArPharazonV: haven't really had a chance to use it in raid, but it should get me to 2500 crits...
Menelvagor Valar: and he is a better aggro holder than a warrior at same level :)
ArPharazonV: heh
Menelvagor Valar: +60% aggro from holy damage + Seal of Command :)
ArPharazonV: very nice
ArPharazonV: that the same one I did deadmines with?
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, I have some WoW news other than the stuff I just spammed :)
ArPharazonV: oh, he
Menelvagor Valar: the very same.
ArPharazonV: hmm... and still 28?
Menelvagor Valar: was 26 at the time.
ArPharazonV: been levelling slower than me
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead, Menel.
Menelvagor Valar: hey, been levelling my priest.
ArPharazonV: mine's 40 now, and that's still very slow
Menelvagor Valar: Ah yes, priest is 42 right now.
Menelvagor Valar: (was 21 at the time Phar and me did Deadmines together, so pah!)
ArPharazonV: hah
Menelvagor Valar: But more importantly, my Rogue just got engaged.
Menelvagor Valar: or sort of :)
ArPharazonV: well I've gotten my hunter to 16, and my rogue to 18.... and everything else to 8-11...
Eonwe Valar: You had some news, Menel?
ArPharazonV: sorry, I'll shut up :-)
Menelvagor Valar: And as it happens to be, my Rogue's fiancé is also a Tolkien fan, so I'm working on recruiting her for the Valar Guild.
Menelvagor Valar: and that's the most important news.
Eonwe Valar: Cool. Have her come by a meeting :}
Menelvagor Valar: other than the 5 items I grabbed in LBRS and UBRS today :-D
Eonwe Valar: congrats on those too :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
ArPharazonV: I did some more pvp
ArPharazonV: more than I'm used to
Eonwe Valar: Whisper Tolkien Topics to me now.
ArPharazonV: and for the first time, made it to sergeant this week!
VardaValar1: Uldaman branch has been having a good time too, lively : )
Eonwe Valar: Glad to hear that, Varda :}
STEvilaim: makar says hi ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Wow, long time since I've heard that name,.. :}
VardaValar1: Hi Makar!
Eonwe Valar: Heya to him :}

ArPharazonV: my tolkien reading experiences: continued further in Book of Lost Tales this week
ArPharazonV: read the Nauglafring and am now working on Earendel's tale... pretty interesting
Eonwe Valar: Guess I'll declare Tolkien Time now since we're moving there :}
Eonwe Valar: Last chance to whisper Tolkien topics or you get one of mine :}
CaranthirV has left the room.
CaranthirV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: oh, sorry, thought we were already on it
ArPharazonV: and decided to speak before we were in a topic :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Makar... Hakkar... too much ZG the last few weeks...
ArPharazonV: hah
Eonwe Valar: Ok, here's today's topic.
Eonwe Valar: Let's discuss Makar and Measse.
Eonwe Valar: Who are they, what are they, what do we know about them?
VardaValar1: *Tries to keep quiet a second and give someone else a chance.*
STEvilaim: he's my bro! :p
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: hehe
FinduilasV: err one word dont know and nothing L)
ArPharazonV: Makar and Measse... Valar who have been abandoned and forgotten in the history
ArPharazonV: basically gods of strife and war, though not necessarily evil..
ArPharazonV: although they did the most evil tendencies of all Valar except Melkor
STEvilaim: makar being the latter (War)
ArPharazonV: brother and sister, I think?
ArPharazonV: *they did have
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar
STEvilaim: I believe so
ArPharazonV: they played a part in the Lost Tales.. and later disappeared without a trace
VardaValar1: They were the Valar who loved fighting for its own sake, something that did not fit well with Tolkien's concepts as they matured.
FladrifV: namarie all
VardaValar1: Tulkas, the laughing fighter, would go to the halls of Makar and Measse, to find sparring partners.
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: Namarie to the ent!
ArPharazonV: Namarie Flad!
FinduilasV: namairie flad!
FladrifV: *bows* (as far as he can)
VardaValar1: Tulkas beat them, which did not sit well with them, as he didn't seem to take it as "seriously" as they did.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, laughing while fighting gets on some peoples' nerves :}
VardaValar1: Fighting went on as practice almost constantly in their halls.
Eonwe Valar: Makar wasn't happy about going to chain Melko.
Eonwe Valar: But he still followed Manwë.
ArPharazonV: I don't remember much from Lost Tales book 1 in detail, but I'm sure a free Melko would make a far better adversary for those who love fighting :-)
Eonwe Valar: Interesting that it was Tulkas and Aulë, not Tulkas and Makar, that bound Melko rather than see Manwë pay obeisance to the rogue Valar.
VardaValar1: Tulkas and Aule were more than loyal to Manwe, they really liked him, and Melkor's ugliness to Manwe did not sit well with them.
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, Tulkas, with Aulë and Oromë right behind him.
VardaValar1: They could not stand aside and let Manwe even consider a bow to Melkor.
VardaValar1: Orome was of the same mind.
Eonwe Valar: Interesting that Makar isn't even in the trio to wrestle Morgoth into those chains.
Eonwe Valar: That being the point of me bringing it up.
VardaValar1: Suppose he was already being written out at that time?
Eonwe Valar: Perhaps.
STEvilaim: likely
ArPharazonV: he didn't survive long...
ArPharazonV: what do we know, on the other hand, about Measse?
Eonwe Valar: She was Makar's sister.
VardaValar1: She seemed to be in philosophical agreement with Makar.
VardaValar1: It's interesting that it was a sibling pair rather than the married pair some of the others had.
FladrifV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Eonwe Valar: There were other siblings among the Valar though.
ArPharazonV: indeed, what was a spouse to one was a sister to another, etc
VardaValar1: True
Eonwe Valar: Not always.
Eonwe Valar: Varda had no siblings mentioned :}
VardaValar1: True other siblings :-)
VardaValar1: Varda came to aid Manwe, and to help against Morgoth
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth, who, incidentally, was Manwë's brother :}
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: The real oddity for us is that the relationships were mental, and could be in the mind of Eru, as the brothers Manwe and Melkor.
Eonwe Valar: It seems siblings shared similar callings.
Eonwe Valar: Irmo/Namo/Nienna.
VardaValar1: Aye
Eonwe Valar: Oromë/Nessa(?)
Eonwe Valar: Makar/Measse
VardaValar1: Orome's wife Vana was Yavanna's younger sister
Eonwe Valar: Aye
VardaValar1: Tricky for any of them to be younger.
VardaValar1: Suppose Eru thought of them later?
VardaValar1: Or was it like the other relationships, all in the mind?
STEvilaim: confusing :o
Eonwe Valar: Well, they each fullfill a unique role.
ArPharazonV: well, it's not said Eru thought up all the Valar at once...
Eonwe Valar: Nienna is not the Doomswoman of the Valar.
ArPharazonV: who knows how many years went by during the "creation"
Eonwe Valar: Namo does not grant both dreams and guard the dead.
Eonwe Valar: In the early tales it was to Nienna's Halls that Men went.
Lokiey1054 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: And there were no "years" during the creation because there was no time :}
Eonwe Valar: So for all intents and purposes, it would've been instantaneous :}
Eonwe Valar: The Ainur would've more or less come into being together, each with their particular roll.
Eonwe Valar: *role.
ArPharazonV: true
ArPharazonV: unless Eru created "time" around/before the creation itself
ArPharazonV: after all, the Vala of Time was said to be the oldest of all?
VardaValar1: They each had natural inclinations, that gave them relationships, and some were stronger, or had more creativity
Eonwe Valar: Time was a concept within Ea.
VardaValar1: The Timeless Halls were not affected
ArPharazonV: not according to the Lost Tales... those 3 of day, month, year... they served a Vala, the oldest, the Vala of Time, who remained with Eru
Eonwe Valar: That was an earlier concept that I don't think can hold in the final version.
VardaValar1: It's really tricky trying to make a whole out of all these things
STEvilaim: so technically maybe the relationship between the vala and eru was timeless whereas the relationship between the vala and men/elves/etc was not timeless?
VardaValar1: Some were simply dropped.
ArPharazonV: some were dropped, and some simply vanished by summary
VardaValar1: Time was a concept related to a planet
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar. Lack of room.
ArPharazonV: is it really a stated contradiction?
VardaValar1: Some didn't fit into the mature concept.
ArPharazonV: can we, in the later mythology, not have a Vala of Time?
Oessala: *Also, Aeri server up now.
Eonwe Valar: The nature of Ea is different between the Lost Tales and the Sil.
Oessala: And I still want to know how any of you can extract useful information out of the's rather disjointed.
Eonwe Valar: In the Lost Tales it's a more or less geocentric universe, so time can be goverend around Arda.
Menelvagor Valar: *yawns* time to head out to bed.
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie and until next week!
VardaValar1: May your stars twinkle merrily in your sleep, Menelmacar!
Menelvagor Valar: I am sure they will Varda, if just for your viewing pleasure.
Eonwe Valar: Essentially, in the Lost Tales, Ea is approximately Arda, while in the latter, Ea is the universe while Arda is simply a planet in the universe.
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Menel
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: and what does have that to do with a Vala of Time remaining with Eru? Would he not still have as much power over each Ea?
STEvilaim: maybe he has other planets to attend to?
STEvilaim: or she?
VardaValar1: Humans may also be going to Eru
Eonwe Valar: It means a Vala of time cannot have simply sent 3 messengers to dictate how one little planet does it's time and leave the rest of the universe alone.
Eonwe Valar: Aside from that, it was Varda who set the Orbit of the Sun and Moon in the Sil.
Eonwe Valar: We know time was going on before that point.
ArPharazonV: yes, I'm not saying the story of the 3 messengers was still fitting
ArPharazonV: but the concept of the Vala of Time himself...
ArPharazonV: why not?
VardaValar1: Maybe they could be made to fit... Creatively. : )
VardaValar1: Could be the subject of either an article or story?
Eonwe Valar: The concept of a Vala of Time is possible, since while we know many of the most powerful Valar came to Ea, we it does not say all of the Valar came to Ea.
ArPharazonV: if it is possible, and he was indeed the eldest of the Valar...
Eonwe Valar: The concept of him being "Eldest" does not make sense if there is no time to measure, aka, Timeless Halls.
ArPharazonV: why can not some way of time have been in being between the creation of him and the other Valar?
Eonwe Valar: "Vala of Time" simply means that was his interest in the singing of the Ainulindallë
ArPharazonV: but aye, the "Timeless Halls" thing is a bit of a problem
VardaValar1: I think Eonwe has the right of it.
Eonwe Valar: just like Ulmo was the "Valar of Water"
VardaValar1: Just because Varda was the Valie of light didn't prevent others from playing with light.
Eonwe Valar: Aulë is "The Smith"
ArPharazonV: true, true
VardaValar1: That means we can work in the Vala of Time. : )
ArPharazonV: well, that was my explanation for "younger" brothers and sisters among the Ainur, anyway....
VardaValar1: He may just not have wanted to be restricted to Arda with just one time.
Eonwe Valar: I would say (and I have before :}) that a simple definition of a Vala would be one who sang somethin unique into the Music, and a Maia would be one who added to that theme.
VardaValar1: ahh, thanks Phar
VardaValar1: It's a good way to put it, Eonwe
Sarujil has left the room.
VardaValar1: How many of you 14, now 13 people, are still here? : )
FinduilasV: sort of hehe
Eonwe Valar: Me :}
ArPharazonV: I am
VardaValar1: Would you like to call a halt now?
STEvilaim: I would think the vala of time would like to keep the timelines somewhat consistent across the universe if presiding over multiple planets?
STEvilaim: This creates a problem though, as time isnt really a factor for a god or for vala if they are allowed to play with multiple factors (water, light, time, etc)?
STEvilaim: which calls into question the existance of the vala of time..
VardaValar1: The Vala of Time has to figure out what Time is, as we all agree that it exists.
VardaValar1: Perhaps he helped rig the Timeless Halls?
STEvilaim: yup
VardaValar1: So you are suggesting that he keeps the mess coordinated? : )
STEvilaim: yes ;-)
VardaValar1: ahh, very good thought
STEvilaim: if you were able to live an indefinate amount of time, wouldnt you get bored after a while with the passage of time that we have
STEvilaim: ?
VardaValar1: So he figures out, say, Galactic Time, and helps keep everyone on schedule.
ArPharazonV: must be hard work
FinduilasV: Who is the vala of time? Is there any other than eru?
Eonwe Valar: All the other Valar who wanted to participate in the shaping of Ea had to enter Ea, though.
VardaValar1: Well, no. It tends to all flow together, and events begin to define time.
ArPharazonV: luckily he has all the time of the world...
VardaValar1: hehe
STEvilaim: lol
ArPharazonV: I'll see if I can get his name
STEvilaim: I wouldnt say Eru is the vala of time, rather the embodiment of every vala.
ArPharazonV: his name is Aluin
FinduilasV: ah i have to get the lost tales, i need to browse for them
STEvilaim: was referencing Finduilas's question
VardaValar1: Thank you, Phar
ArPharazonV: those 3 messengers are "the children of Aluin, of Time, who is the oldest of the Ainur, and is beyond, and subject to Iluvatar; and thence we came, and thither we go now."
VardaValar1: That could be taken as his allegience is to Eru rather than Morgoth?
Eonwe Valar: So the question is now, who is the spouse of Aluin :}
VardaValar1: lol
ArPharazonV: hehe
STEvilaim: yeesh.
Eonwe Valar: Shall we call it here?
VardaValar1: Forgive our levity, Scatha : )
STEvilaim: "subject to Iluvatar".... hmm. Aluin could be a spouse? /warping words :p
VardaValar1: You dragon!
STEvilaim: hehe
FinduilasV has left the room.
FinduilasV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Welcome back
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's declare aftermeeting so those who wish to can escape.
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs Gavel*
ArPharazonV: I was thinking the same, actually, it isn't actually said Aluin is "male", or as male as a Vala can be
Eonwe Valar: Aftermeeting: Feel free to continue Tolkien chat.
ArPharazonV: but it feels a bit odd to be a spouse of your own creator
STEvilaim: not necessarily. maybe he got lonely? :p
VardaValar1: I don't think it meant that, really : )
STEvilaim: kind of like why god may have created adam and eve?
STEvilaim: no, i'm just poking
Eonwe Valar: Vala is the masculine form, Vali/Valie is the feminine.
VardaValar1: A Time-honored activity here. : )
STEvilaim: so, who was Aluin's eve? Or.. adam?
ArPharazonV: well, his spouse then was indeed the oldest, so maybe he created Aluin when he was lonely, and thought "hey, having more subjects might be a nice idea"
VardaValar1: Vala also works for Valie
ArPharazonV: and thus the Ainur are born!
STEvilaim: darned apple eating ainur :p
VardaValar1: He started singing and the concepts formed? : )
VardaValar1: hehe, Scatha
Eonwe Valar: I've typically seen the female Valar referred to as Vali in the Lost Tales.
STEvilaim: I sing when i'm bored in the tractor.. ;-)
ArPharazonV: true, but it's not actually said Aluin was a Vala
STEvilaim: lots of concepts are born.. :D
ArPharazonV: I thought he was male, but it's not said
VardaValar1: Kind of goes with the motor noise.
STEvilaim: lol
ArPharazonV: the only reference to him is what I just said
Eonwe Valar: Then why call him "Vala" of time and not "Ainu"? :}
ArPharazonV: that Aluin is the oldest of the Ainur
ArPharazonV: well, I thought I'd read he was male, but I was mistaken
VardaValar1: He's very powerful too, sounds like a full-fledged Vala
ArPharazonV: so yes, Vala, Vali, we don't know
ArPharazonV: we just know he/she was the oldest Ainu
Eonwe Valar: How do we know he's all that powerful? :}
Eonwe Valar: We just know his kids have some skill :}
ArPharazonV: *grin*
VardaValar1: As the Time-keeper, he can claim to be eldest if he pleases!
STEvilaim: odd
STEvilaim: - geneology website.
ArPharazonV: if that's the case, it's also up to him to dub the other Valar younger or older than each other :-)
Eonwe Valar: Since he's Eldest, he obviously didn't sing anything new in the Music :}
VardaValar1: If he's a Vala, he probably sang about time in the music?
STEvilaim: music without time has no tempo!
VardaValar1: Aye! He would much improve it by giving a good beat!
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a sec. Need a drink.
ArPharazonV: the creator of rhythm and tempo...
ArPharazonV: basis of all music
ArPharazonV: perhaps he's eldest in that aspect?
VardaValar1: That does make him sound quite interesting, and I agree with that as basis
ArPharazonV: he was the first to start in the music?
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar!
STEvilaim: sounds plausible
VardaValar1: He needed to give a beat for others to sing to.
VardaValar1: Well said.
FinduilasV: AH THERE ye say something, i know how annoying it is in a choir when ye have good singsrs but who have no feeling for rhyrthm
ArPharazonV: then maybe the younger of the Ainur were those who entered in the music later?
VardaValar1: Aye, Fin : )
Eonwe Valar: back
ArPharazonV: or am I pushing it here...
Eonwe Valar: That does sound interesting, Phar.
Eonwe Valar: Time in relation to Music...gee wonder what could give us that idea :}
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: We have a new concept. Don't think I've heard that one ever brought up in the last 8 years.
VardaValar1: Say, we're almost 9 years
VardaValar1: Oct 4
ArPharazonV: 9 years...
Eonwe Valar: Aye, we'll be there a week from Wednesday.
ArPharazonV: does that mean I've been here for 3? or 4?
STEvilaim: yay :D
VardaValar1: Oh, I'll be gone Thursday to Sunday
Eonwe Valar: A month and 2 days later, it'll be my 7th year here :}
ArPharazonV: I joined on the anniversary, but can't recall which one...
VardaValar1: Getting back late Sunday, so Eonwe gets to chair again next week! : )
Eonwe Valar: Will do :}
VardaValar1: Check your info on the guild pages Phar?
ArPharazonV: will do
STEvilaim: i have no idea how long i've been around.... since the early days of diablo1 pretty much. I even met the original nemo :p
ArPharazonV: Oct. 4, 2003
ArPharazonV: 3 years
ArPharazonV: my, time has gone by quickly
STEvilaim: he was calling himself helter skelter back then iirc.
VardaValar1: : )
CaranthirV: Feb 20, 2003 :-)
VardaValar1: Namo changed his name to Sam
STEvilaim: the first one?
VardaValar1: Unless you mean before our current setup
STEvilaim: ~96-97
STEvilaim: probably late 97
Srekal86 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: 1997
VardaValar1: Aiya Srekal
VardaValar1: Ours joined shortly after I did
VardaValar1: We gamed together before Valar
VardaValar1: He became Namo when I became Varda, same day. : )
VardaValar1: Srekal, we're in After-meeting now, nothing official going on : )
STEvilaim: I wasnt around during the very early part.
ArPharazonV: when I came around you were already a full-fletched guild for 6 years, and keeping meetings in
ArPharazonV: good times...
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar : )
Srekal86: /me waves
VardaValar1: *waves back*
STEvilaim: i kinda miss the old days :p
CaranthirV: i still hang out in the valar channel occasionally
VardaValar1: Aye, 20 was the norm
VardaValar1: I do too, Caranthir. Not enough though
VardaValar1: I tend to jump into Arda. ;-)
CaranthirV: ive been playing non-stop war3 since i quit WoW
VardaValar1: Ahh cool : )
ArPharazonV: I usually just hang out in War3 when there's a big queue in WoW... unfortunately that's usually not enough time to go into multiplayer
VardaValar1: Ok, Europe. You need to get some rest now. : )
Srekal86: Did I miss the discussion about the new book?
VardaValar1: yes.
VardaValar1: It's not out yet
Srekal86: lol, was that the summary of the discussion?
VardaValar1: Feel free to comment now if you like?
STEvilaim: my library is sorely out of date.. time to update it :D
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: 30 years in the making
VardaValar1: Children of Hurin
Srekal86: well, not really.
Srekal86: that's just what the press uses.
VardaValar1: Christopher's been digging out notes
VardaValar1: heh
VardaValar1: The press, our most unreliable source of news? : )
Srekal86: ;-)
STEvilaim: only thing less reliable than the 'net! ;-)
ArPharazonV: Children of Hurin
Srekal86: What about all the news on The Hobbit film?
VardaValar1: Feel free to tell : )
ArPharazonV: if there's a lot of new text in that, Christopher has been lying to us in HoME! I thought he had everything already published...
ArPharazonV: in the book that is
ArPharazonV: not the hobbit film
FinduilasV: i heard about that they plan one
Srekal86: PJ has been doing quite a few interviews after the MGM announcement.
VardaValar1: What new news do you have on the Hobbit film?
Srekal86: They should be all listed on or
VardaValar1: okies, don't talk then. : )
Srekal86: wha, don't talk?
VardaValar1: Thank you. We'll take a look.
VardaValar1: hehe
STEvilaim: <-- getting info
STEvilaim: 9/18/2006:
Oessala: hobbitfilmwassit?
Srekal86: In general: he wants to split the film in two, make it darker and more complex, less of a children's story, and bring back characters from the LotR films.
Srekal86: STEvilaim check the links I provided, is dated.
Oessala: So it's like the hobbit....except not?
Srekal86: I should probably compile a list of all the news about it.
ArPharazonV: characters from the lotr films?
VardaValar1: hmm, sounds interesting
Srekal86: right.
ArPharazonV: you know, like... Elrond? Gandalf? Bilbo?
VardaValar1: Make it for an older audience, add in characters not yet thought of
Srekal86: Well, obviously the ones that were in the Hobbit, but he wants to bring back more.
STEvilaim: yeah, info turning up is old news for me
ArPharazonV: well, Aragorn and Arwen might be around Rivendell...
VardaValar1: Legolas and Gimli were alive then but JRRT hadn't thought of them yet.
ArPharazonV: but other than that... he might be pushing it
VardaValar1: Two films is not too much for a dense book.
VardaValar1: The LotR films needed to be longer. ;-)
ArPharazonV: the Hobbit wasn't a dense book
Srekal86: The Hobbit is much more simple than The L.R.
VardaValar1: More than you might think
Srekal86: and much shorter.
VardaValar1: yes, much simpler
ArPharazonV: 200 pages, that's like 8 times as short as Lotr
STEvilaim: definately more
VardaValar1: Sil was dense
STEvilaim: wonder if he'll hit up old tom bombadill at all?
VardaValar1: Lot of little references
ArPharazonV: oh, mixed up dense with long
STEvilaim: wait...
Oessala: Hobbit is simpler...that's why I like it.
ArPharazonV: like a.. thick book
STEvilaim: Tom Bombadill... Aluin?
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: hah
VardaValar1: That's reaching : )
STEvilaim: is it?
ArPharazonV: and there we have the spouse!
VardaValar1: ta daaa
Srekal86: We're even writing a letter to PJ to try to convince him to stay as true to the books as possible, it's sounding more and more like he wants to add his own stories into the film.
VardaValar1: Saw that
VardaValar1: Since JRRT didn't even know all the characters yet, it might not be such a bad thing.
FinduilasV: haeeh petition ..\
FinduilasV: /me scratches her head
ArPharazonV: read the petition
ArPharazonV: the comparison with the Bible.. unsettles me, a little
Srekal86: ;-)
FinduilasV: alas what a wording hihi
ArPharazonV: as an atheist, I care more for the accuracy of the Hobbit than the Bible, so to speak :-)
Oessala: On a totally unrelated note, has anyone here read Dante's Comedia?
FinduilasV: very dramaic
STEvilaim: yeah, i'd not compare it to the bible.. which has already been re-written to suit needs and changes over the decades as it is.
VardaValar1: hmm, show the defeat of Sauron, the White Council. The stuff going on underneath the Hobbit.
ArPharazonV: oh, that's a nice idea
VardaValar1: I'm looking at this site:
Eonwe Valar: Your link to the petition doesn't work.
Srekal86: imho I would prefer PJ stick to the book as closely as possible, the genius in Tolkien's work is not in what he wrote but what he didn't write.
Srekal86: eonwevalar it seemed to work for everyone else :p
ArPharazonV: it does, but it's double, Eonwe
VardaValar1: Jackson would like to continue with the actors from Lord of the Rings and even include these roles which don't appear in The Hobbit or are only mentioned marginally, like Legolas and Saruman.
ArPharazonV: it didn't work for me either, then I noticed it was a double address for some reason
Eonwe Valar: Didn't work for me is all I know.
ArPharazonV: so I removed the second part :-)
Srekal86: odd, Trillian must be trying to "fix" it.
VardaValar1: With a movie in two parts he would show Saurons defeat against the White Council and his return to Mordor.
ArPharazonV: it said acksonhttp:/ eter_Jackson in the url
ArPharazonV: so take away the second half, and it should work
VardaValar1: Well, JRRT did suggest that we play in the mythology he created.
Srekal86: ya this is an older version of Trillian.
Eonwe Valar: I see, will fix that.
VardaValar1: He didn't say we should leave it static.
STEvilaim: I say let PJ have his fun.. he did well with the LoTR, so i'd assume he wont mess up the hobbit badly.
Srekal86: So you think the Estate would be fine with people publishing storires based on Tolkien's works?
Srekal86: stories*
VardaValar1: People do write a ton of fanfic, but don't sell it
VardaValar1: PJ is having to go through licensing
Srekal86: but do you think the Estate would want static or non-static?
VardaValar1: I clicked your link and got that doubled thing too, not using Trillian
VardaValar1: The estate made us pull off our maps
Srekal86: VardaValar1: sorry I was not clear, I am using trillian and that is what is causing the problem.
VardaValar1: The estate may be run by lawyers rather than Tolkien family
VardaValar1: ah ok
ArPharazonV: if you simply copy the link from chat and insert it in your browser.. it should be fine
Srekal86: VardaValar1 the estate or Enterprises?
ArPharazonV: or click the link and remove the second half :-)
VardaValar1: I am just cutting off the last half : )
Eonwe Valar: I'm not sure I'd compare it to the Bible, the Bible being a much more important work, but I know the Bible's already been butchered by revisionists in Hollywood when making movies.
VardaValar1: Sounds like PJ may not be directing anyway. Just kind of overseeing
Srekal86: eonwevalar: the Bible being more important is subjective and when they butcher it they most likely don't add in their own stories.
FinduilasV: ok people i am saying good bye for the noo , :-) was interesting , go with the light, firiends
ArPharazonV: indeed, Srekal
Eonwe Valar: The Bible is a religious text. I would consider it more important than the Hobbit.
VardaValar1: um yeah. The Bible comparison is a little over the top.
Srekal86: Feel free to change it.
FinduilasV: aye :-)
Eonwe Valar: And yes, the latest movie made a couple of years ago about the Flood was butchering it.
ArPharazonV: depends on how important you deem the religion :-)
FinduilasV: Namarie!
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Finduilas!
Srekal86: Cutting out parts of The Hobbit is one thing, adding in "new" parts is entirely different.
ArPharazonV: see you in WoW
Srekal86: later.
VardaValar1: One does not want to butcher any religious text, Koran, Bible, whatever.
CaranthirV: Im going to be heading out too
VardaValar1: The parts he mentions are implied.
FinduilasV: me? *looks innocent*
VardaValar1: Namarie folks1
Eonwe Valar: Yes, they added in new stuff to the "Flood" movie.
CaranthirV: Namarie
FinduilasV: /me chuckles
VardaValar1: I'd like to get in some game time too : )
ArPharazonV: Namarie
FinduilasV: /wave
FinduilasV: /wave
STEvilaim: bye fun
VardaValar1: Ten Commandments was loaded with extras : )
STEvilaim: *fin
FinduilasV has left the room.
CaranthirV has left the room.
VardaValar1: But really, the Hobbit is not a religious text.
Srekal86: Why do you say that?
VardaValar1: So it needs another comparison
VardaValar1: heh
Srekal86: Feel free to change the comparison.
VardaValar1: I will not mess with it. : )
Srekal86: No no by all means do. It has already been changed quite a bit and will continue to change.
VardaValar1: People sign a changing document. Rather interesting concept.
ArPharazonV: heh
STEvilaim: wiki setup
Eonwe Valar: That's wiki for you.
Srekal86: They sign the idea.
ArPharazonV: when there's 3 million people on there I'll change it to something political, maybe we can change something in the world...
VardaValar1: Now Phar : )
ArPharazonV: well, it's worth a shot ;-)
VardaValar1: If we can take gaming all over the world to be friends with, that could change some attitudes.
VardaValar1: Hard to shoot at your gaming buddy : )
VardaValar1: or your helper on the Tolkien site ;-)
STEvilaim: it is?
VardaValar1: To actually harm
STEvilaim: true
VardaValar1: Hard to play with him if he's really dead
VardaValar1: Thank you for much food for thought and the links
ArPharazonV: :-)
STEvilaim: Tom Bombadill +/= Aluin :p
VardaValar1: hehe

VardaValar1: o man
VardaValar1: I'm going to find some food and look for a free gaming comp : )
VardaValar1: 2 and a half hours of chat, need a break : )
STEvilaim: i'm gonna go numb my mind at the theaters
STEvilaim: watch Jacka** 2
VardaValar1: Anything intresting?
STEvilaim: or Fearless..
Eonwe Valar: Mind rotting is more like it.
STEvilaim: yup
VardaValar1: I haven't checked the movies lately
Eonwe Valar: For your first choice in movies.
VardaValar1: Haven is out in some places, I think
STEvilaim: hehe
Eonwe Valar: don't know about the second choice.
STEvilaim: Fearless is a Jet-Li movie. Martial Arts/action
ArPharazonV: oh, fun
Eonwe Valar: Ah yes, now I remember it.
Oessala: Anyone see the reailer for 300?
STEvilaim: I watched "Crank" few days ago. Decent action movie but definatly R+
Eonwe Valar: Supposed to be his last movie.
Oessala: trailer*
ArPharazonV: I watched Kill Bill 1 on tv recently... not a bad movie, if you like that sort of thing
VardaValar1: What do you think you'll see, Srekal?
Oessala: that looks like it'll be interesting
STEvilaim: 300?
Oessala: it's based ona graphic novel by frank miller
Oessala: same guy that did sin city
STEvilaim: oh
VardaValar1: Whatever PJ comes out with will probably beat most of what we've got to look at now. : )
Oessala: gonna go look for the novel tomorrow
STEvilaim: heard about sin city 2, but not 300..
Oessala: nono, 300 is a different universe
Oessala: it's the spartans at thermopolye(sp)
STEvilaim: didnt say they were the same ;-)
STEvilaim: dial-up :-(
Oessala: :\
Oessala: I'm trying to flind plot details, see how well it jives with history.
Oessala: There's some obviously fantastical elements int he trailer
Oessala: but as long as they don't try and pass it off as historcial I won't mind. coughcoguh Troy cough
STEvilaim: lol
Oessala: Thermopylae, there we go.
Eonwe Valar: My personal pet peeve in movies is when they have someone at the end say "Everyone will remember it differently."
ArPharazonV: heh, haven't come across that actually, that I remember
Eonwe Valar: I can name two off the top of my head. The first I've already mentioned once today, the second is a Western about Wyatt Earp.
STEvilaim: its somewhat true though. Some people are selective about what they want to hear or remembe.r.
ArPharazonV: yes, but saying that people will remember it differently gives you an excuse of butchering every historical report of an event
VardaValar1: Troy was an interesting attempt at reverse-engineering mythology to show potential real life influences to cause it.
Eonwe Valar: What they mean when they say that is "This movie is the REAL account and everything you've heard up to this point is a lie."
VardaValar1: Not that I agree with their choices particularly. : )
Glorfindel VG has left the room.
STEvilaim: or an excuse for the people who are going to take your view apart?
ArPharazonV: not crashed yet?
ArPharazonV: allright :-)
VardaValar1: Surprise : )
STEvilaim: :o
VardaValar1: Side windows going, several
Oessala: Varda, please tell me you do not seriously believe that Troy was anything more than a poorly-done action movie with a nominally pre-written script...that they butchered.
ArPharazonV: last week I waited an hour before responding, and found out the room had crashed ;-)
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: Don't want to wait quite that long!
VardaValar1: Troy was no worse than a lot of junk we watch in the name of entertainment.
Oessala: Exactly.
VardaValar1: I enjoyed it more than a lot of the mainstream stuff.
VardaValar1: Hard to find any real quality.
VardaValar1: Go read. : )
Oessala: I'm eagrly awaiting 300.
VardaValar1: Funny. I'm not eagerly awaiting any movie.
Oessala: Miller seems to do good stuff, and the Battle of Thermopylae is just cool. :-)
VardaValar1: : )
STEvilaim: crank wasnt bad if you want an action movie. some of the camera/digital effects were annoying though... and there's really not much for a plot. Its all about "Action action action action action!!!!"
VardaValar1: They give us what they think the public wants.
STEvilaim: yup\
ArPharazonV: "the public" does not want one thing, tastes differ :-)
ArPharazonV: for nearly every kind of movie there's an audience
VardaValar1: I agree, Phar : )
VardaValar1: But some segments give them more profit
ArPharazonV: indeed
STEvilaim: ok, i'm gonna poof so I can make it to the theaters ;-)
VardaValar1: for site stats.
STEvilaim: cya
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: Namarie!
STEvilaim: the chat was much fun btw. been a long while since I chatted this much with you guys ;-)
VardaValar1: Glad you did : )
VardaValar1: And a tough subject too : )
STEvilaim: :D
STEvilaim: /quit wheee
STEvilaim: doh
STEvilaim: too much irc for me lol
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: hehe
STEvilaim has left the room.
Oessala: But yea. After reading Herodotus, Thermopylae just kinda sticks in your head...
Oessala: So no one here has read the Divine Comedy?
Eonwe Valar: Not I.
Eonwe Valar: Probably got it in one of my Lit books sitting around.
VardaValar1: I did, been a while
VardaValar1: Look guys, forgive me, but I'm bugging out. : )
VardaValar1: Hungry : )
Eonwe Valar: Bon apetit :}
VardaValar1: /var/log/httpd/access_log
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Varda, enjoy your meal
VardaValar1: Thanks : )
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Oessala: Heh, the guy who played Faramir in TT and RotK will be in 300..
ArPharazonV: ahh... what's his name again?
ArPharazonV: I knew the names of the entire cast once... but it's been too long
ArPharazonV: the main cast, that is
Oessala: David Wenham
ArPharazonV: ah, yes, rings a bell
ArPharazonV: so, perhaps I'd better be off as well
ArPharazonV: anyone up for a game of warcraft 3?
Eonwe Valar: Afraid not. Got homework to get done.
ArPharazonV: allright
Oessala: I'd hav e to reinstalll
Oessala: and I'm watching sin city right now. Terribly violent and immoral.
ArPharazonV: :-)
ArPharazonV: well, I'll save and send then
Oessala: Very, very well written and shot.
ArPharazonV: and go to sleep
ArPharazonV: oh, that's good
ArPharazonV: haven't seen it yet
Oessala: The way they do the scenes...very good.
Oessala: Color is awesome too.
ArPharazonV: ..color?
Oessala: Yea.
Eonwe Valar: It's black and white except for certain characters.
Oessala: Yup.
Eonwe Valar: It was ok.
Oessala: And blood.
ArPharazonV: I see
Oessala: The second story with the cop protecting the girl is great.
Oessala: Fair trade.
Srekal86 has left the room.
Srekal86 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: ok, saving now