Valar Guild

October 26, 2006 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon-(V), Eonwe-(Valar), and Varda-(Valar)

Attending (8.5):
    Members: ArathornValar, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Glorfindel VG, Lungorthin-(Valar)/sauronjag,  Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V.
    Members wayyyy after-meeting: Arwen V1, VardaValar1
    Guests: PokerStar1971 (found us, had a question), Submersed1990 (for about as long as it took to leave again)

Meeting begins
Membership news
        Beta underway
        Lothar Friday
    Lord of the Rings Online
    Eve Online
     Eonwe Valar: Origins of Morgoth's servants. Created, twisted? If created, from what? How does this mesh with the idea espoused in the Sil and LotR that evil cannot create anything of its own? Anything we know from beyond these two books?

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
sauronjag has entered the room.
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: okies, majhor lag here.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: no lag here!
Eonwe Valar: heyw
ArPharazonV: ok, was questing around in Stormwind with my lvl 13 mage, I'll close the game so I can join the meeting :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya even
Menelvagor Valar: lag's gone now :)
Menelvagor Valar: or at least for the typing itself it is
sauronjag: hola
Eonwe Valar: Guten Tag.
Menelvagor Valar: I have some good gaming news :)
Eonwe Valar: Cool :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, I guess we'll go ahead and begin. I think everyone's been thrown off by Daylight Savings time :}
Eonwe Valar: Last night was the night everyone turns their clocks back an hour in the US, so tsk if you forgot :}
Eonwe Valar: Let me jot down the roll real quick.
Eonwe Valar: First of aqll, is everyone actually here?
Menelvagor Valar: not only US.
Eonwe Valar: I know not only US :}
ArPharazonV: I'm here
Menelvagor Valar: Europe as well :)
ArPharazonV: aye, Europe too
Eonwe Valar: Oh, even Europe? Usually we've got a week or so difference in when we switch over between continents.
ArPharazonV: not this time, for some reason
Eonwe Valar: So only Menel and Phar are here, hehe.
Eonwe Valar: And myself, of course :}
ArPharazonV: gonna be a fun meeting!
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's begin :}
Eonwe Valar: Arg, I wish I could turn off this music that keeps playing every time I bring up my buddy list.
Eonwe Valar: Stupid ads.
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, if you manage to see anyone on not already here, send them an invite.

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: As we've already established, this year, Europe and the Americas get to "fall back" together :}
Eonwe Valar: Finduilas still on vacation I believe.
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?
ArPharazonV: ....not from me

Eonwe Valar: Ok, on to Web news:
Eonwe Valar: WoW player tables for Lothar and Uldaman updated weekly :} Check them out :}
Eonwe Valar: Send in game reviews :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other web news?
Eonwe Valar: I suppose I'm the only guild webweaver here right now, so that's probably a no :}
Menelvagor Valar: I''m a webweaver :P
Eonwe Valar: Any web news? :}
Menelvagor Valar: just not capable of doing anything until Alatar finally checks his mail.
Eonwe Valar: Good point :}
Menelvagor Valar: so thats not new and therefore not news :D

Eonwe Valar: Ok, on to Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Burning Crusade Expansion pushed back to January.
Menelvagor Valar: not really :D
ArPharazonV: aye, but to keep us busy during those weeks they're giving us a new content patch
ArPharazonV: including the new talents, honor system, and probably lots more stuff
Menelvagor Valar: Burning Crusade Expansion pushed forward to today :-D
ArPharazonV: that we only expected in the expansion
Eonwe Valar: ?
ArathornValar: Im kind of here :-P
ArPharazonV: eh?
Menelvagor Valar: <--- Beta tester 8-)
Eonwe Valar: Oh :}
ArathornValar: helping people in a run in hinterlands
Eonwe Valar: Well, that's a different story Menel :}
Eonwe Valar: Heya Arathorn :}
Eonwe Valar: For us folk not so lucky, we've gotta wait until January :}
Eonwe Valar: And if you haven't reserved your copy of the Expansion by ten minutes after its existence was announced, you're also out of luck :}
Menelvagor Valar: havent actually played yet, been downloading TBC this afternoon while clearing BRD twice :D
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
ArPharazonV: already pre-ordered it from some Dutch pc-company, so should be good
Eonwe Valar: Guild Questing: [Note: Lothar server]
Eonwe Valar: We (Sauron, Eonw�, Arwen) were going to go into BRD for Jailbreak and more with 5 (Beline and Fangorn our other two), but unfortunately 2 had connection problems. Then Ancalagon came in and we decided to give it a go with 4,
Eonwe Valar: sicne it turned out neither connection issue was going to be fixed soon.
Eonwe Valar: We cleared aroudn the Jailbreak area, then began the quest.
Eonwe Valar: It went quite smoothly :}
Eonwe Valar: Only a couple of uh-oh moments in the entire time in BRD.
ArathornValar: heh you should have called me on Aim .. I was on in case you needed me :-P
Eonwe Valar: Sorry, thought you were playing Horde for good :}
Eonwe Valar: It was after you went to Horde, so figured it was too late :}
ArathornValar: naw I went since you were full.. but I DID get my Shammy to 60 =)
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
ArPharazonV: grats :-)
Eonwe Valar: After getting Wundsor to safety, we took on the Arena.
Eonwe Valar: *Windsor.
Eonwe Valar: and we won :}
Eonwe Valar: I got a pair of mail gloves to push my mana pool closer to 5k in healing gear, heh :}
Eonwe Valar: (I was the healer on this run :})
ArPharazonV: oh, I need to go in there... my next tier 0.5 armor quest sends me to the Arena
ArPharazonV: I need to place down a Banner of Provocation and then defeat a team of 5 mobs based on WoW classes
Eonwe Valar: gl :}
ArPharazonV: thanks
ArPharazonV: I don't actually have any use for the armor-set, but, hey, still fun to gather the pieces :-)
Eonwe Valar: After BRD, Bilbo and I decided to join Elwing in a trip through Gnomeregan
Eonwe Valar: We were joined by a person named Brinana when we got there. Bilbo only had so long, but we got through about halfway before he left.
Eonwe Valar: The three of us left pushed through and took out the boss.
Menelvagor Valar: none of you was a 60 mage was you? *grin*
Eonwe Valar: I was a 60 Paladin :}
Eonwe Valar: Bilbo was on his 60 Hunter :}
Eonwe Valar: Elwing was a 37 Hunter, Brinana a 28 Warrior.
Eonwe Valar: We got all of Elwing's and Brinana's Gnomeregan quests done, so we had a successful run :}
Eonwe Valar: And that concludes the WoW Questing report :}
Eonwe Valar: Arwen made 60 earlier in the week :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other WoW news?
ArPharazonV: RSA killed the Twin Emperors this week
ArPharazonV: which is the raidgroup I'm in
Eonwe Valar: congrats
ArathornValar: Und and I did a few quests in Azshara yesterday =)
Eonwe Valar: cool
ArathornValar: she helped me finally get to the last part of a LOOONNG Blasted lands q.. Im going to need 5 people to do the final tho =P
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Let me guess: Razelikh :}
ArPharazonV: fun questseries, that
ArPharazonV: some good rewards
ArathornValar: right
Eonwe Valar: I'm at that step as well :}
ArathornValar: I got stuck at the 2 headed hydra elite and could never get past it .. been waiting a year =P
ArPharazonV: ouch :-)
ArathornValar: we shoudl try it on Friday if no otehr plans
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, that is a while :}
ArPharazonV: well, I waited for the final boss for quite some months too :-)
Eonwe Valar: I figured another trip into BRD.
Eonwe Valar: I'd like to actually push past the bar at some point :}
Submersed1990 has entered the room.
Submersed1990 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Still a couple who will need Jailbreak.
Eonwe Valar: But I'd like to get Ralikh killed at some point as well :}
Eonwe Valar: *Razelikh
PokerStar1971 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Greetings, PokerStar1971. Can we help you?
PokerStar1971: Yes actually. :-)
PokerStar1971: Does anyone happen to know where I can get the Burning Crusades beta EU download?
Eonwe Valar: Not I.
ArPharazonV: ..I guess Menelvagor would know, but I'd think you get told the link when you're accepted
ArathornValar: I still want that eng shcema and the smelting for dark iron for my mage too :-P
PokerStar1971: I deleted the E-mail when I got my activation key, didn't keep the download link.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Menel might be able to help you. We're in the middle of our weekly meeting at the moment.
PokerStar1971: Well, I didn't delete the E-mail, but it's gone.
ArPharazonV: hmm...
Eonwe Valar: Sorry to hear that.
PokerStar1971: Menel, could you assist?
Eonwe Valar: LotrO news:
Eonwe Valar: New information on some places of interest there.
Eonwe Valar: LotRO also featured in ImagineFX magazine, if you're interested in that.
Eonwe Valar: Beta Journals from LotRO are posted every Wednesday, other info every Tuesday and Thursday.
ArPharazonV: so ehrm... now that we've heard your question, maybe you can answer mine... who exactly are you? ;-)
ArathornValar: yeah Im still on the part just before jailbreak woth my warlock.. mage even furtehr back
Eonwe Valar: Oh, have to mention there some info on Gandalf's up there as well :}
PokerStar1971: I read about the Valar guild on the website, saw you guys were blizzard fans and saw that the chat you all talked in was this one, figured I'd pop in to see if any of you could assist me in finding a Beta-download link.
Eonwe Valar: How did you find our website?
PokerStar1971: Was searching around on Google. You're one of the top results for alot of things apparently.
ArPharazonV: haha... we're famous!
Eonwe Valar: Well, we have been around a while :}
PokerStar1971: :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Did Jailbreak today on my priest.
PokerStar1971: Could anyone ask Menelvagor if he could help me out?
Eonwe Valar: We just celebrated our 9-year anniversary a few weeks ago :}
PokerStar1971: Ah there he is :P
PokerStar1971: Awesome :-)
Menelvagor Valar: one sec for that
PokerStar1971: Thanks very much.
Menelvagor Valar:
Menelvagor Valar: only europe though.
Menelvagor Valar: its a 2GB download and a 5.2 GB install.
PokerStar1971: Yup, I'm downling the EU client now.
Menelvagor Valar: not considering patches.
PokerStar1971: Wait, do I need to have the EU client?
PokerStar1971: Or can I just have that?
Eonwe Valar: Please conduct this further in whispers, as we are in the middle of our meeting :}
PokerStar1971: Sorry.
Menelvagor Valar: its done :P
Menelvagor Valar: and were just discussing WoW anyways :P
Menelvagor Valar: gotta love being a priest :)
Eonwe Valar: Actually, I'd moved to LotRO :}
Menelvagor Valar: ah yes, seems you did.
ArPharazonV: been playing my mage for a bit, those are fun... still need some practice though, couldn't even solo Hogger!
Eonwe Valar: There's also information on a couple of skills for each of the LotRO character classes on the class pages.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, now, is there any other gaming news? Anyone play anything besides WoW that you can openly discuss? :}
Orodreth V: Not that anyone cares, but in eve really bad luck made me lose around 50m in assorted equipment and then when I tried to start making monies, I got borked over again. So now I'm waiting for a corpmate to ship me some replacements.
Eonwe Valar: Ouch. Sorry to hear that Orodreth.
Eonwe Valar: And just because we don't play Eve doesn't mean we don't care :}
Orodreth V: Play Eve! 2 week free trial. and if you're really cool, I'll pay for a month subscription.
Orodreth V: And it's better then WoW! <.<
Eonwe Valar: hehe, Thanks Orodreth :}
Eonwe Valar: I only have time for 1 MMO right now, and it has to be WoW :}
Eonwe Valar: Others are free to take Orodreth up on his offer though :}
PokerStar1971 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news? :}
Eonwe Valar: Think we should wait 5 minutes for Tolkien time to see who comes stumbling in? :}
Orodreth V: Yes..feel free. And by "free" I mean "compelled by threats of violence". It's no fun being the only Valar member playing such an awe-inspiring game.
Eonwe Valar: You could try to drag some people in Eve into the Valar Guild by bringing them to meetings :}
ArPharazonV: I've watched the finals of the tournament with you, Oro! Wasn't that enough? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Scouting is an important function of members. It helps us find good people we would otherwise never get to meet.
ArathornValar: Eve?
Orodreth V: Never! Oh, speaking of which, I think my alliance (and quite possibly myself) will be in the next tourny.
Eonwe Valar: It's sort of a space MMO.
Orodreth V: Much longer-lasting than any other mmo.
ArathornValar: Mmm not crazy about space ones.. is that like starcraft?
Orodreth V: I've been looking, and I think I have a couple people interested. :-)
Eonwe Valar: Not quite like Starcraft
Eonwe Valar: You fly ships around and stuff.
Orodreth V: Not at all like starcraft, really.
Eonwe Valar: Orodreth will have to explain :}
Orodreth V: It's actually a space mmo. Not just futuristic scifi.
Eonwe Valar: And if Orodreth could send in a review, that'd be great too :}
Orodreth V: I just might.
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
ArathornValar: I take it theres a demo?
Eonwe Valar: Heya Glorfindel :}
Eonwe Valar: In the Gaming Section of the Meeting :}
Orodreth V: No demo, just a two-week free trial. :p
Glorfindel VG: hiya!
Glorfindel VG: did i miss whole tolkien discussion already?
Orodreth V: It's slightly gimped becasue of people exploiting the trials, but it's almost completely playable.
ArPharazonV: tolkien's after Gaming, so don't worry :-)
ArathornValar: theres a client dl then?
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien hasn't come yet, but anyone with a Tolkien topic can whisper me now.
Orodreth V: Yea.
ArathornValar: checking net now..
Orodreth V: I can mail you a link.
ArPharazonV: so... Eve's not really newbie-friendly then?
Glorfindel VG: aye
Glorfindel VG: the time changeup messed me up today
Glorfindel VG: hehe
ArPharazonV: heh
Orodreth V: Depends on how stupid you are. If you have the IQ of a rock, yes. If you're in here... you'll be fine. :-)
ArathornValar: 555mb :-\
Eonwe Valar: I figure it's done that for a few people, Glorfindel :}
Orodreth V: It's the full client. :p
ArPharazonV: I mean new to the game, not an actual intellectual noob :-)
Orodreth V: It's great.
ArPharazonV: as in, starting with minimal money, no fleet, and surrounded by big corporations etc...
ArPharazonV: aren't you going to get beaten into a pulp the moment you enter?
Orodreth V: Nope.
Orodreth V: High sec/Empiure space is safe.
Orodreth V: (with a few caveats)
Menelvagor Valar: been there, done that :)
Menelvagor Valar: Eve's a good game to play in my opinion.
Menelvagor Valar: just the whole skill thing ticks me off.
Orodreth V: Seriously, unless you're braindead and pay no attention to the warnings that are shoved in your face when you try and enter lowsec for the first time..
Orodreth V: You'll be fine.
Menelvagor Valar: to train a skill (and you can only train one skill at a time) it'll take RL time.
Orodreth V: ...which is awesome.
Menelvagor Valar: and for the higher skills up to a full day.
Orodreth V: Haha.
Orodreth V: You mean a full month? :p
Menelvagor Valar: even worse.
Orodreth V: I got a 15d skill I'm starting monday.
Menelvagor Valar: it means to access the really high end content, you have to play for years.
Orodreth V: Naw.
Menelvagor Valar: yes it does.
Orodreth V: I was in tech two ships in three months.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, Menel, you need to send in a Review for Eve as well :}
Menelvagor Valar: that's easy really.
Eonwe Valar: Both you and Orodreth now have your homework assignments :}
Orodreth V: I could be ina dreadnought in about 2 months, and I'm practically a newb when it come to big ships.
Menelvagor Valar: to get Tech IV or even Tech V ships will take years.
Orodreth V: ...there are no tech IV or V ships.
Orodreth V: :p
Menelvagor Valar: well, Tech 2 with all the possible upgrades then :P
Menelvagor Valar: and I mean you are able to actually fire missiles without having an 80% miss chance.
Orodreth V: I flew a t2 outfitted Wolf in 6 months, and I trained poorly.
Orodreth V: Missiles always hit unless a ship outruns them. :p
Eonwe Valar: Ok everyone, last chance to whisper me Tolkien Topics :} Get them in now :}
Menelvagor Valar: in six months I can have a fully geared lvl 60 character able to do Naxxramas.
Orodreth V: In 6 months I can have a battleship fighting in a fleet.
Menelvagor Valar: and Naxxramas is the Biggest, Baddest, Worst of the Worst dungeon in WoW.
Orodreth V: Which is
Orodreth V: much more fun.
Menelvagor Valar: or actually.
Orodreth V: for me, at least.
ArPharazonV: (for a few months still, then we get tons of higher dungeons)
Menelvagor Valar: 6 months and the right community, I will have Naxx done with.
Menelvagor Valar: and level another character and do the same.
Orodreth V: 6 month and the right implants and I can be in a carrier. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Oro :)
Orodreth V: With all the skills I need.
Orodreth V: The thing about eve dosn't end after you get your character to level 60 and finish the dungeon.
Menelvagor Valar: if I play practically non-stop for 6 months (with about 10-12 hours a day for sleep and food and other stuff), I can have about 8 lvl 60s.
Orodreth V: There are always more skills to train, ships to fly, things to do.
Menelvagor Valar: Oro.
Orodreth V: I can be in a carrier in 6 months if I play 3 hours a day. :-)
ArPharazonV: it doesn't end in WoW either, though
Orodreth V: Eve dosn't have powergaming.
Menelvagor Valar: after you get the biggest baddest ship in the universe, and all the skills there are, you'd be playing for a dozen years.
Orodreth V: There is no biggest baddest ship.
Menelvagor Valar: there is.
Menelvagor Valar: and I've seen it.
Orodreth V: ..not really.
Menelvagor Valar: there is.
Menelvagor Valar: and it's not for sale.
Orodreth V: What, a Titan?
Orodreth V: Bite me.
Eonwe Valar: Easy, Oro.
Orodreth V: Only useful in 0.0, you can't actually fight with it.
Orodreth V: Boooooring.
Orodreth V: ...but then, so is mining.
Menelvagor Valar: true, there is no power gaming in Eve.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, Menel and Orodreth, to your corners, this round is over :}
Orodreth V: Now, a Rifter? A Rifter is awesome.
Menelvagor Valar: which makes it a game good for the casual gamer.
Menelvagor Valar: but for the power gamer, the game gets boring real soon.
Orodreth V: Eonwe, I was referring to the ship, not Menel. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: after 2 weeks of free play, I was rather glad to return to WoW :)
ArPharazonV: hmm.. if I wasn't addicted to the Warcraft-universe, I might be better off playing Eve by the sound of it..
Eonwe Valar: It's hard to tell from the context :}
Orodreth V: Let me rephrase: no power skilling.
Menelvagor Valar: but, as a quite hardcore gamer, I prefer WoW.
Orodreth V: There are powergamer Eve me.
Menelvagor Valar: and I have to admit, I haven't mastered Eve in a long shot.
Eonwe Valar: The bell has run on this round of Eve debates :} I'd love it if you two put your thoughts into reviews for the Guild to read, however.
Orodreth V: Alright, alright.
Orodreth V: I can take a hint. :p
Orodreth V: I'm writing one up now.
Menelvagor Valar: but the graphics, interface, design, fun and everything except the skill system is just massively excellent.
Menelvagor Valar: scroll up and see review :P
Eonwe Valar: You're going to make me pick the review out of a transcript? :}
Orodreth V: Basically: eve takes time, wow goes quickly.
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien Time:
Menelvagor Valar: You're going to make me copy-paste my review from the transcript? :P
ArPharazonV: Orodreth vs Menelvagor: The great Eve Online shared review!
Eonwe Valar: You could review what you typed, maybe find some other points you'd like to make :}
Menelvagor Valar: it's been like 3 months since I played Eve :P
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, Aye :} I have no qualms posting reviews on the same game with differing opinions.
Eonwe Valar: As long as it's all said with the courtesy expected of Guild members :}
Menelvagor Valar: oh, if I get around to typing out a review, it'll be based on both sides.
Orodreth V: /me deletes the Menel-bashing paragraph
Menelvagor Valar: /me writes up a quick Orodreth /target /autofire macro.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, an objective view is appreciated, but there can still be differing opinions on what should be focused on as to why the game deserves/doesn't deserve to be played :}
Menelvagor Valar: true :)

Eonwe Valar: Ok, Tolkien Time :}
Eonwe Valar: Let's do a somewhat oldy-but goody.
Eonwe Valar: Origins of Morgoth's servants.
Eonwe Valar: Created, twisted? If created, from what? How does this mesh with the idea espoused in the Sil and LotR that evil cannot create anything of its own?
Eonwe Valar: Anything we know from beyond these two books?
ArPharazonV: if his servants were twisted, I would like to know what he used to make his dragons..
Eonwe Valar: Anything that adds to our knowledge without contradicting what we have in those two? What does contradict?
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth could've used "terrible lizards," heh.
ArPharazonV: komodo dragons? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I was hinting dinosaurs, but ok :}
Eonwe Valar: Seriously though,..
ArPharazonV: ah, of course
ArPharazonV: sorry, used to be a bit of an expert on dinosaurs, so should've known...
ArPharazonV: guess it's been a while ;-)
Glorfindel VG: he twisted the elves into the orcs out of his malice for being inable to create life as the other valar
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth got Carcharoth by choosing the biggest and strongest of Draugluin's pups, dumping in his own power, etc.
Eonwe Valar: So, choosing some giant lizard of some sort as a base would've worked for land-based dragons at least.
Eonwe Valar: Aye Glorfindel.
Eonwe Valar: That's what the Wise of Eressea believe.
ArPharazonV: and the winged dragons again based on the land-based dragons
ArPharazonV: evolution sped up ;-)
Glorfindel VG: all dragons were evil?
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth did share a bit in the powers of Yavanna. He could've caused certain dragons to be hatched with wings.
Menelvagor Valar: Uhm... just in between, but the Draenai Home base will be on an island to the south of Darnassus :P
Eonwe Valar: As far as we are privied, yes Glorfindel.
Menelvagor Valar: or 3 islands actually :P
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Menel :}
Eonwe Valar: Dragons are a creation of Morgoth as far as we know, but they most certain carry the malice of Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: They are intelligent beasts.
ArPharazonV: ...didn't we already know that, Menelvagor? about the position, at least
Eonwe Valar: It has been released in earleir information, yes.
Menelvagor Valar: oh, must've missed that :P
Eonwe Valar: What about trolls?
Eonwe Valar: Orcs didn't turn to stone in sunlight. Why trolls?
Eonwe Valar: At least we never hear about orcs turning to stone in sunlight :}
Eonwe Valar: We know that evil creatures bred by Morgoth in the darkness before the rising of the Sun could not bear the light.
Menelvagor Valar: well, the bigger they are, the stronger the flaws :)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: Orcs don't like sunlight either.
ArPharazonV: but actual turning to stone... that's a bit extreme, don't you think? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Dragons are big but don't seem to hav emany flaws :}
Glorfindel VG: except one for smaug :-)
ArPharazonV: except for an underbelly that's especially vulnerable to black swords or black arrows ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Well, Gurthang was forged from iron Eol found in a metorite :}
Eonwe Valar: *meteorite.
Orodreth V: Dragons ar massive and powerful...but as shown, they have trouble with single opponents.
Orodreth V: Well, gifted single opponents.
Eonwe Valar: Unless the opponent is follish enough to come at the dragon front the front.
Eonwe Valar: *foolish
Menelvagor Valar: or back.
ArPharazonV: *from the front ;-)
Orodreth V: Those arn't opponents, those are snacks.
ArPharazonV: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: only "safe" spot to encounter a dragon is to the sides.
Eonwe Valar: Turin got caught under the dragon's spell when he came against Glaurung.
ArPharazonV: how about from below, Menelvagor?
Menelvagor Valar: Killed the dwarven guy.
Menelvagor Valar: nearly killed Turin :P
Eonwe Valar: If he doesn't think to crush you before you can position your weapon to do him great harm.
Eonwe Valar: Turin used terrain to him advantage as I recall.
Eonwe Valar: used a small ravine or such that Glaurung could step over.
Eonwe Valar: *to his advantage.
Eonwe Valar: But Trolls are the only of Morgoth's creatures we hear about that seem peculiarly weak against the sun, so much that they turn to stone.
Eonwe Valar: It seems a flaw even into the Third Age, where even the great Olog-hai could endured the sunlight, so long as Sauron will was pushing them.
Menelvagor Valar: when were the Trolls first created?
Menelvagor Valar: before or after the Dragons?
Eonwe Valar: Trolls and orcs were created before the Rising of the Sun.
Menelvagor Valar: before then.
Menelvagor Valar: well, that may be it then.
Eonwe Valar: Dragons are presumed to have come at a later point, since Glaurung, the Father of Dragons didn't appear until the 3rd battle.
Menelvagor Valar: Trolls come with a naturally thick skin, almost like stone.
Menelvagor Valar: perhaps the sun hardens that skin until it actually is stone?
Eonwe Valar: Why would it do that?
Eonwe Valar: Why don't orcs suffer the same fate?
ArPharazonV: because Orcish skin isn't as thick ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: but of course, because they were made before the sun rose for the first time, Morgoth didn't know about that fatal flaw.
Eonwe Valar: heh
Eonwe Valar: doesn't seem to be one he worked on getting rid of either.
Eonwe Valar: I guess he'd turned his attention to bringing out dragons by that point, and decided any further work was pointless.
ArPharazonV: I'd be inclined to say he abandoned the whole concept a bit, trolls don't seem to have been his favorite servants :-)
ArPharazonV: aye
Eonwe Valar: Trolls weren't his smartest servants either :}
Eonwe Valar: Even orcs could make themselves salves and weapons when the need arose.
Menelvagor Valar: why would a troll need salves and weapons?
Eonwe Valar: He needs a giant club :}
Eonwe Valar: he's just too dumb to make one :}
Menelvagor Valar: it'll just rip up a tree for a club :)
Menelvagor Valar: and salves... well..
ArPharazonV: effective, too ;-)
Eonwe Valar: salves for speeding the healing of injuries.
Menelvagor Valar: when a troll falls, it's too late for salves anyways.
ArPharazonV: they seem to have had sacks though ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Orcs had salves. Quite effective if painful.
Eonwe Valar: *though
Eonwe Valar: Trolls, if they survived a fight, could've used salves, but I guess Morgoth just counted on the raw strength and hard skin of trolls.
Eonwe Valar: Do we hear much about Trolls multiplying in the numbers Orcs did though?
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure he planned to use trolls on their own, anyway
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth never seemed to be short on Orcs.
ArPharazonV: they might've always had Orcish company wherever they fought
ArPharazonV: so Orcish salves might have been useful, if it came to it :-)
Eonwe Valar: Good point. A giant troll in the midst of orcs is also a good way to ensure the orcs move forward.
ArPharazonV: the 3 trolls in The Hobbit were on their own, but they weren't exactly serving Morgoth anymore either
ArPharazonV: they rather seemed to have lived for their own good
Eonwe Valar: I don't think Sauron was yet making his presence known again to the evil creatures of the world at that point.
Eonwe Valar: He was still hiding under the guise of the Necromancer in Dul Guldur until sometime in the Hobbit.
ArPharazonV: did Sauron adapt his servants too, or did he only use those already created by Morgoth?
ArPharazonV: did he "twist" the Orcs and Trolls to be more dangerous?
Eonwe Valar: Sauron seemed to be trying to make most of his most available source of militia: orcs.
ArPharazonV: or were the Ringwraiths and Felbeasts his only "creation"?
ArPharazonV: yes, but did he physically enhance them from Morgoth's time?
Eonwe Valar: The Olog-hai seems to have been his handiwork.
Eonwe Valar: The stronger orcs of the Third Age could endure sunlight, which was a pretty new concept.
Menelvagor Valar: the Orcs of the Second Age could endure it also.
Menelvagor Valar: but only under great force would they do so.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, do you have a quote on that?
Menelvagor Valar: nope.
Orodreth V: Not all orc.
Orodreth V: Wait, second age?
Eonwe Valar: Well if their master's will was on them, I suppose yes, but the stronger orcs of the Third Age seemed to be able to do so on their own.
Orodreth V: Hmm, I actually think I did see that somewhere. Havn't got my books with me though.
Eonwe Valar: Uruk-Hai, for example, bragged about it.
ArPharazonV: the orcs of the Third Age seem to have had their master's will on them wherever they went ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: Uruk-Hai is something else, though
ArPharazonV: weren't they Saruman's creations?
ArPharazonV: or am I confusing book and movie now?
Eonwe Valar: I'm not absolutely sure, but Sauron did have Uruks in his service.
Eonwe Valar: I need to reread LotR a 7th time :}
Eonwe Valar: I think it's presumed or hinted that Uruk-Hai came about by breedings orcs with mankind.
Eonwe Valar: hinted through comments like "half-orcs and goblin-men"
Eonwe Valar: Two such comments are made.
Eonwe Valar: I wouldn't put Sauron beyond such abominable acts.

Menelvagor Valar: uhm...
Menelvagor Valar: I just saw someone on an Elephan in TBC.
Menelvagor Valar: elephant.
Eonwe Valar: Draenei mount.
ArPharazonV: Draenei ride Elekk, aye
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Eonwe Valar: Any more to add to this conversation, or should we just call it here and let you all go about your business?
Menelvagor Valar: was a gnome who was riding it :P
ArPharazonV: must have gotten exalted with the Draenei faction then :-)
Menelvagor Valar: hehehehe :P
Eonwe Valar: Must've been playing a while to get Exalted with Draenei then.
Eonwe Valar: ok, let's bang the gavel I guess :}
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel*
Eonwe Valar: After-meeting :}
Eonwe Valar: Wow, just ran into the first queue on Lothar I've seen in a while.
ArPharazonV: interesting, our server used to be queue-heavy, but I haven't been in queue for weeks
Eonwe Valar: Lothar hasn't had a queue in a while either, which is why I said wow :}
ArPharazonV: well, I'll just save and send then
Eonwe Valar: ok
ArPharazonV: saved
ArPharazonV: and sent
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
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