Valar Guild

April 23, 2006 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 23:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon-(V), Varda-(Valar)

Attending (13)
    Members: ArPharazonV, Elladan-(V)/Bior the Ythling, Eonwe Valar, Finrod-(V)/TH0R0NGIL, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet, GwaihirValar, Malbeth-(V)/Basketballmatt2, Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V/Oessala, Ugluk of Old, VardaValar1 (presiding)
    Visitors: Amarie-ex/staind32185, Srekal86

    Guild Wars game
    Battle for Middle-earth 2 game
Meeting Begins
    New Full Member Malbeth-(V). His "few words".
    Menelvagor leaves tomorrow for London, should be back Friday.
    Ar-Pharazon's birthday was yesterday, so he is now 21.
    Page for WoW Europe
        WoW Lothar
        WoW Europe
        WoW Children's Week quest
    Eve Online
    Animal lords. Topic by Eonwe.
    Knights of Dol Amroth, what is their relationship to Elves? Topic by Menelvagor
    Babylon 5, LotR in space? More during after-meeting
    LotR movie errors
After-meeting declared but Tolkien continues
    LotR videos
    More on LotR movie errors 
    Was the Stone of Elostirion taken to the West with the Ringbearers? Topic by Ar-Pharazon

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
Srekal86 has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
Srekal86: /me waves
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: almost time I reckon.
Menelvagor Valar: can you guys invite anyone not here yet?
Menelvagor Valar: I'm afraid I don
Menelvagor Valar: t have everyone on my list.
ArPharazonV: eck, don't have Gilraen's other name on my list it sems
ArPharazonV: *seems
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: right on time.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Inviting
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Srekal86: /me waves
ArPharazonV: does anyone here still play Guildwars?
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: since I installed it today ;-)
VardaValar1: Aiya
Star of Phaet: Aiya folks
Eonwe Valar: I think we have a couple
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: nice
ArPharazonV: through the international districts we should be able to meet up
VardaValar1: We do have some. Those I know are on the Activity page
ArPharazonV: well, add me to that list then ;-)
VardaValar1: In the process
ArPharazonV: nice
ArPharazonV: I also got Battle for Middle Earth 2
Srekal86: how do you like that?
ArPharazonV: which of the 2?
Srekal86: Middle-earth actually*
Srekal86: BFM-e
Srekal86: I have the first one but have yet to get the sequel.
ArPharazonV: I like it, reminds me of the first one
ArPharazonV: same playing style
Srekal86: Doesn't come close to StarCraft for me.
ArPharazonV: a few differences, like neutral buildings and the lack of pre-existing building nodes
VardaValar1: Phar, do you have a way of being contacted there? Name or other way in Guild Wars?
Eonwe Valar: The collector's edition box is a bit light to have what all it claims, and it's flimsy compared to BLizzard's collector's Edition boxes.
Eonwe Valar: *for BFME2 that is.
ArPharazonV: Guild Wars name is Calaron Cloudburst (water elementalist ;-))
Srekal86: I have the WoW collector's edition, quite nice.
ArPharazonV: I don't have the expansion yet
ArPharazonV: for GW that is
Eonwe Valar: Both my WC3 and WoW collector's boxes are quite sturdy and worthy of collecting. The BFME2 collector's box is the standard fare for any old box.
ArPharazonV: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Kind of a disappointment. Makes me glad I'm not willing to shell out $60 on it.
ArPharazonV: I just have the normal version, 50 euros
Eonwe Valar: $50 for normal as well.
ArPharazonV: played the tutorials and the evil campaign up to and including Fornost
Eonwe Valar: Not willing to shell that much out to EA either.
ArPharazonV: that "war of the ring" feature looks nice... a bit like Risk
Menelvagor Valar: well put Eonwe :-)
ArPharazonV: like a whole seperate game
Eonwe Valar: Btw, we do have BFME and BFME2 boards on our forum if you want to mention your purchase there, Phar :}
ArPharazonV: I will!
Eonwe Valar: I have BFME, but I waited until I could get it for $20. Will do the same for BFME2 unless I can get some deep deep discounts from some store on the Collector's edition, enough to cut it down to $30 at least.
Eonwe Valar: That's as much as I'm willing to give EA for a collector's edition, and they should be happy with that.
Eonwe Valar: As you can tell, I'm not happy with EA :}
ArPharazonV: well, I like some EA games...
ArPharazonV: and the BFME series is probably my favorite
ArPharazonV: and why do I have the feeling I discussed the same thing before....
Eonwe Valar: Probably because we have :}
ArPharazonV: almost like a deja-vu, but I'm almost sure we discussed it before...
ArPharazonV: ah, allright
VardaValar1: Looks as if we are going to have a small group tonight
VardaValar1: Let's start and let the others read our transcript. ;-)

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership Report:
VardaValar1: New member as of last meeting:
VardaValar1: Malbeth-(V)
VardaValar1: He visited with us last time as basketballmatt2
VardaValar1: We have a person trying to join as a Tolkien-only, struggling with his article now.
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?
Menelvagor Valar: other than me leaving for London tomorrow?
Menelvagor Valar: nope :-)
VardaValar1: That is good to know about
ArPharazonV: me birthday yesterday!
VardaValar1: yay Phar!
VardaValar1: 21?
ArPharazonV: ayup!
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
VardaValar1: Now even Americans can call you an adult. ;-)
ArPharazonV: 2 presents I got, which I mentioned already ;-)
ArPharazonV: haha
VardaValar1: Menel, do you think you'll have comp access there?
Menelvagor Valar: no idea.
VardaValar1: Menel has to type fast because he's also in another window with me : )
Menelvagor Valar: depends on the host family.
VardaValar1: Guess we'll find out. Maybe you can at least reach us by the Forum
Menelvagor Valar: but I think I'll spend most nights down at a pub with friends :-)
VardaValar1: Good luck
VardaValar1: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: will be back by friday :-)
VardaValar1: ah cool - you'll have lots of news
Menelvagor Valar: sure do!
Ugluk of Old has entered the room.
Ugluk of Old: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Aiya you Orc!
Menelvagor Valar: we're going to visit an english secondary school and attend some classes there :-)
Star of Phaet: Aiyata Ugluk
VardaValar1: We were in Membership News, Ugluk
VardaValar1: Just finishing up
VardaValar1: Did you have anything you wanted to tell the group? : )
Ugluk of Old: no thanks
VardaValar1: Latest side bandit raid while Sauron's eye was in the other direction?
Menelvagor Valar: sorry, having loads of side windows now.
VardaValar1: Same, Menel. : )
Menelvagor Valar: lots of last minute things to take care of before tomorrow :-)

VardaValar1: Web Report:
VardaValar1: Menelvagor has been working up a page for WoW Europe but is having an upload problem, which we hope to have taken care of
VardaValar1: Maybe by his new install when he has time, like after Friday maybe.
VardaValar1: Tolkien art page:
VardaValar1: First is that Arwen hopes to help me with doing actual thumbnails instead of constrained pictures
VardaValar1: We think we may be able to squeeze the needed program onto this computer
VardaValar1: That should speed us up a lot
VardaValar1: Also more art:
VardaValar1: Cave of Turgon:
Menelvagor Valar: (The WoW europe page is an exact likeness of the US one, except for that it has an added server slot :-))
VardaValar1: Thanks, Menel : )
VardaValar1: This cave will be greatly benefitted by proper thumbnails
VardaValar1: He's added "Ringil"
VardaValar1: Cave of Cassia-(TV)
VardaValar1: Has "Vilya", illustration for the story of the same name.
VardaValar1: Soni Alcorn-Hender likes our Tolkien site, a lady who sells her Tolkien art, and let us have the rare privilege of direct linking.
VardaValar1: On her FAQ page, she forbids it. She is making us a special case.
VardaValar1: Story page:
VardaValar1: New stories by Cassia and Siobhan-(TV)
VardaValar1: "Mistaken Identity" and "Vilya"
VardaValar1: both illustrated by Cassia.
VardaValar1: Does anyone else have any webwork for our site to mention?
VardaValar1: Gilraen, has Menel talked to you about doing another button yet?
VardaValar1: Guess you two can work that out in a side window
VardaValar1: Menel doesn't have enough of them yet....
Menelvagor Valar: oh, the button is finished already.
VardaValar1: Yay team! : )
Star of Phaet: I made a 'Europe' button for Melen... yesterday, I think? Maybe friday. The weekend tends to blur :-)
Menelvagor Valar: yesterday I think.
VardaValar1: It's made, that's the main thing. :-)
Star of Phaet: *Menel, even... the typo demon seems to have taken up residence in my keyboard today
VardaValar1: Melen, sounds like mellon, who can take offense at that? : )
Star of Phaet: I'll keep hold of the blank button, though, in case any mroe are needed in future
Star of Phaet: hehe, indeed :-)
VardaValar1: Thanks. We hope you will need it again!
VardaValar1: Articles:
VardaValar1: I'm still working on the Mankind page between other things
VardaValar1: It's a very long one, with a lot of linking between pages
VardaValar1: The pages of Kings are a lot of the headache, but it will all be done eventually. : )
VardaValar1: Then I'll be updating the A-Z
VardaValar1: Games Report
VardaValar1: Eonwe has a WoW Lothar report for us. Take it away, Eonwe!
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: We didn't have quite a full group of 60s for Stratholme, so we decided to hit Dire Maul West instead, going with Eonwe's Paladin, Varda's Hunter, Sauron's Warlock, and Oromë's Rogue all at lvl 60 and Fundin's Hunter at lvl 48.
Eonwe Valar: Our first task was to clear out the Ancient Protectors before we fought Tendris Warpwood. Dealing with him, we attacked the big Ancient himself. We got him in two tries; thanks to Sauron's Soulstoning, we didn't have to run back.
Eonwe Valar: We then marched further in, our goal being part of Sauron's epic mount quest.
Eonwe Valar: We found the area, and in scouting the situation, Oromë found the Library, so we got to complete "Elven Legends."
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately Oromë and Fundin had to go, and so we were down to 3. Merry joined us at the time, but Sauron had to go shortly as well.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks to Merry and Sauron, however, I was able to complete "The Light and How to Swing it" and get the Paladin DM trinket while we had the way to the library clear.
Ugluk of Old has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Having only us three, we decided to go after Zul'Farak. It turns out Merry had never got his carrot on a stick :}
Eonwe Valar: The three of us fought into the Gahz'rilla area with little trouble, stopping only for scarab shells for Merry. Once it was safe, we summoned Gahz'rilla and dealt the death blow.
Eonwe Valar: Having a bit more time, we decided to try our luck at Divino-matic Rod. We did very well, wiping out the waves as they came (with the help of Bly and his men, of course).
Eonwe Valar: Nekrum also came up during the fight, and we were able to claim his amulet in the process of fighting for the Divino-matic Rod.
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately, we didn't talk to Bly fast enough, and he disappeared on us, so we will have to go back later for the rod.
Eonwe Valar: Also, it was a good night to be Varda, as she won many a greed roll :}
ArPharazonV: ouch, I've never seen that happen before
ArPharazonV: Bly disappearing before you talk to him ;-)
Eonwe Valar: He did. We tried looking for him, but didn't find him.
Menelvagor Valar: Strat is doable without a full group btw :-)
Menelvagor Valar: did a normal strat group with 4 people not long before my comp refused to stop playing WoW :P
VardaValar1: :Gold in the pot for my elite mount. ; )
Eonwe Valar: We figured Stratholme might be a bit rough on Fundin's Hunter :}
Star of Phaet has left the room.
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: yes, I do admit, that apart from me, there wasn't a single person without at the very last half the slots filled with epics, and the rest blue :-D
Eonwe Valar: Dire Maul East we'd done with a lvl 48ish char before, and a couple of us had been to West, so figured we stood a better chance there.
Menelvagor Valar: no arguments from me Eonwe.
Menelvagor Valar: never been to Dire Maul :'(
VardaValar1: Go with Europe Valar buddies when you get your WoW back : )
ArPharazonV: our entire WoW guild has been to Dire Maul sooo many times.. I'm the only one who hasn't finished West yet :-)
Menelvagor Valar: still need to get my water thingy quest there.
Eonwe Valar: If that's the one from the Eastern PLaguelands, it's outside of the instance, Menel.
Menelvagor Valar: but probably won't hit it, since I've been playing my rogue almost non-stop :-)
Menelvagor Valar: nope, it's the DM one I think.
Eonwe Valar: There's one from EP that has you collect some water from a pool in DM.
Menelvagor Valar: besides, still have a couple quests in DM, along with the Arcanist Cookbook :-)
Menelvagor Valar: got that one too.
Eonwe Valar: Ah, ok
Eonwe Valar: Well, that one is soloable :}
Eonwe Valar: for a lvl 60 :}
Eonwe Valar: or a Rogue or Druid if they're careful :}
Menelvagor Valar: oh, with rogues elites are pretty easy :-)
Eonwe Valar: My Report is done, btw :}
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe
VardaValar1: Phar, did you have a WoW Europe report?
Orodreth V has entered the room.
Oessala has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Orodreth : )
Orodreth V: Aiya.
ArPharazonV:, not really, actually.... we progressed on an Ahn'Qiraj boss by killing 2 of her adds for the first time, and I finally got my Blackrock Spire quest done for Blackhand's Breadth, a +2% to crit trinket
ArPharazonV: but nothing much to say for the rest...
ArPharazonV: had contact with Fladrif, discussing what games I would buy for my birthday
ArPharazonV: but no Valar-action concerning fighting or quests or anything
ArPharazonV: basically more and more of the same
ArPharazonV: got my wealth over 400g again at last, halfway to my epic ram
ArPharazonV: and nothing more to say concerning WoW, really
VardaValar1: Thank you, Pharazon : )
VardaValar1: Did anyone play anything else this week besides WoW and the earlier reported Guild Wars and Battle for Middle-earth 2?
Menelvagor Valar: nothing on the net.
Orodreth V: Eve here. Someone in here asked for an invite last week..dunno where that went.
ArPharazonV: nope, those 3 games were it for me.... well, I finished the first campaign for Empire Earth earlier this week, but nothing special
VardaValar1: You lost the invite?
Orodreth V: No, I havn't heard anything from them since.
VardaValar1: Email is a very good way to ask for things folks, much easier to keep up with and contact back with.
Orodreth V: If you're reading this, mail me ingame. :-)
Orodreth V: (Debes Sparre)
VardaValar1: Thank you Orodreth. You might check last week's transcript, in case we caught it there.
Orodreth V: will do.
Orodreth V: /me bows and waves
ArPharazonV: checking last week's transcript, but Eve doesn't seem to be mentioned...
ArPharazonV: wait wait.... wrong date?
ArPharazonV: the link to last week's transcript actually seems to link to the one before!
VardaValar1: Look fo rOrodreth
VardaValar1: Thanks, needed to know that. No one mentioned it before.
ArPharazonV: April 23, 2006 Meeting
ArPharazonV: that's not the right one ;-)
Basketballmatt2 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Malbeth : )
Eonwe Valar: Heya Malbeth :}
Basketballmatt2: Hello
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Malbeth!
Menelvagor Valar: It's my unofficial duty to welcome you with open arms to the Valar Guild!
Menelvagor Valar: so here goes:
ArPharazonV: for the right transcript, I see Orodreth asking if anyone wants to be invited, but I don't see anyone saying he/she wanted one...
Menelvagor Valar: Malbeth, welcome to our humble abode and may you last for as long as the Guild does!
Basketballmatt2: thank you
Menelvagor Valar: (which is to say until humanity becomes extinct and beyond, for we Valar will survive humankind's downfall :-D)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Basketballmatt2: lol
VardaValar1: We were just about to finish up gaming news
Basketballmatt2: ok
VardaValar1: Did you have any to add, Malbeth? What you've been playing this last week, if anything?
Basketballmatt2: nothing really, i have been busy
VardaValar1: Ok, thanks.

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: ahhh
VardaValar1: I am reminded of an important custom... : )
Menelvagor Valar: figured as much :-D
VardaValar1: as Menelvagor says, we invite new members to say a few words of introduction at their first meeting as a member. : )
Basketballmatt2: such as
Menelvagor Valar: in slang english: we tha best team eva! :-)
Menelvagor Valar: oh just who you are, where you from.
VardaValar1: What would you normally say when introducing yourself?
Menelvagor Valar: that kind of thing.
Bior the Ythling has entered the room.
Bior the Ythling: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya!
VardaValar1: Malbeth is saying his "few words'. You are just in time. : )
Basketballmatt2: well, my name is ..., I currently living in Texas, and...
Basketballmatt2: am*
VardaValar1: No, you don't need to tell your real life name and address
ArPharazonV: ...too late...
Basketballmatt2: ah
VardaValar1: at least he didn't give his address : )
VardaValar1: I can remove it from the log anyway
Menelvagor Valar: what books do you have, Malbeth?
VardaValar1: Tolkien books
Menelvagor Valar: Tolkien ones of course
Menelvagor Valar: great minds think alike 8-)
Basketballmatt2: The Silmarillion, Hobbit, Lord of the Rings
Menelvagor Valar: rebooting AIM, keyboard has gone bad.
Menelvagor Valar: brb.
VardaValar1: ouch
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: Ugluk can't get back in either
VardaValar1: He's talking to Sauron on WoW
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: back :-)
VardaValar1: How's that, Menel?
Menelvagor Valar: better.
Menelvagor Valar: not the first time.
Menelvagor Valar: a simple prog reboot fixes the issue.
Menelvagor Valar: the keyboard simply switches to another setup sometimes.
VardaValar1: Malbeth, do you have a preference, such as Sil over LotR or other?
Menelvagor Valar: *crosses fingers* *whispers Sil, Sil, Sil*
Basketballmatt2: I have no preference
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: heheh
Menelvagor Valar: *sighs, good enough*
VardaValar1: Tolkien Chat time : )
Eonwe Valar: Tsk Menel :} LotR is just as enjoyable and you know it :}
Menelvagor Valar: true, true, but LotR doesn't have Turgon, therefore, Sil is better.
VardaValar1: We have one suggested topic so far, anyone else have one?
Eonwe Valar: I'll give you that, Menel :}
ArPharazonV: Akallabeth = in Sil, so Sil = better than Lotr!
VardaValar1: (Now we have to check for mentions of Turgon in LotR)
VardaValar1: Eonwe, go ahead with your topic : )
Eonwe Valar: Turgon is mentioned in the Hobbit though :}
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
VardaValar1: Now Menel is a Hobbit fan!
Eonwe Valar: The Eagles had Thorondor as their king. Glaurung was the father of Dragons. Horses had the Mearas(lord of which was Shadowfax in the Third Age). Do we know of any "lordship" amongst other animals in Arda?
Basketballmatt2: Ungoliant-mother of spiders
Basketballmatt2: though that is not lordship
VardaValar1: Glaurung, father of dragons was mentioned, so that works. : )
Eonwe Valar: Well, I included Glaurung as chief, so Ungoliant could be considered the same way.
Eonwe Valar: She did spawn an evil and dangerous brood of spiders.
Menelvagor Valar: (I know Turgon is mentioned in the hobbit.
VardaValar1: Frodo would agree with that, Eonwe : )
ArPharazonV: as would Bilbo, considering the evil and dangerous brood part ;-)
ArPharazonV: well, Gothmog was lord of Balrogs, though I'm not sure if that counts
Bior the Ythling: would carcaroth or huan ever be considered in these areas?
Eonwe Valar: Gothmog doesn't count as Balrogs are not animals.
Menelvagor Valar: Don't think Charcharoth.
ArPharazonV: Carcharoth, not sure... Draugluin, maybe
Menelvagor Valar: Drauglin, yes.
Menelvagor Valar: and the bat lady thingy.
Eonwe Valar: Draugliun aye, good call.
ArPharazonV: Thuringwethil
Eonwe Valar: *Draugluin
Menelvagor Valar: that one, aye.
Eonwe Valar: Huan is a good one as well.
Eonwe Valar: Any others?
ArPharazonV: well, what was the name of that big whale? perhaps he had some followers ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: doubt it.
Menelvagor Valar: Ulmo reins supreme over the sea, with only Osse and Uinen as his chieftains.
Eonwe Valar: Manwë did have Thorondor, King of Eagles as his servant. Ulmo's whale could be the same way.
Basketballmatt2: that's a good point
Menelvagor Valar: blegh.
VardaValar1: Maiar did not have to take human form
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe has to spoil it again :-[
ArPharazonV: well, let's put it this way... what other animals do we frequently hear about in Tolkien? won't be many
Menelvagor Valar: indeed. *points at self* :-D
ArPharazonV: Tevildo was lord of cats
Eonwe Valar: Fell beasts?
VardaValar1: Tevildo, early Sauron, was indeed lord of cats
Eonwe Valar: Oliphaunts?
VardaValar1: Maybe the Witch-king's fell beast would be given precedence over the others?
Eonwe Valar: mice?
ArPharazonV: mice?
Bior the Ythling: seagulls?
ArPharazonV: swans..
ArPharazonV: well, allright, but none of those have named chiefs that we know of
Eonwe Valar: Kine
Eonwe Valar: The Kine of Araw :}
Eonwe Valar: Implies his are better than regular Kine :}
Menelvagor Valar: How about half man half bear like person animal thingy?
VardaValar1: Beorn of the Beornings
ArPharazonV: Beorn!
Basketballmatt2: Beorn?
Menelvagor Valar: Beorn had the ability to become a bear (Hobbit)
Bior the Ythling: beorn the bear dude
Eonwe Valar: I would count Beorn among the Free Peoples.
Bior the Ythling: he is my hero
Basketballmatt2: I i know
Eonwe Valar: and his people, of course :}
VardaValar1: We did get a bit far afield with Tevildo too : )
Basketballmatt2: the Beornings are considered to be Northern men
Menelvagor Valar: hence the half man, half bear like person animal thingy
ArPharazonV: well, Uin the whale doesn't show up beyond the BoLT either, I think?
VardaValar1: We like him anyway : )
Menelvagor Valar: How about Ancalagon for the Winged Dragons?
VardaValar1: But half the fun is in the tangents
Menelvagor Valar: note "half" 8-)
VardaValar1: That works, Menel
VardaValar1: Over half? : )
Menelvagor Valar: which is more? half empty or half filled? :-P
VardaValar1: Same
Menelvagor Valar: actually, if you take into account that with half filled the substance is spread evenly over a certain object, and half empty has the substance drained from it in some way, it indicates that the substance in the half filled object..
VardaValar1: Menelvagor, go ahead with your topic
VardaValar1: heh
Menelvagor Valar: has not stuck to the walls, and the half empty, due to some condensation or other cause of "sticking", we could conclude half empty is actually more.
VardaValar1: You would conclude, but we'll let you. ;-)
ArPharazonV: if it's sticking to the walls and thus more than half filled, it's not exactly half empty :-)
ArPharazonV: if you take the entire volume into account
Menelvagor Valar: blegh.
VardaValar1: If you can show this relates to Tolkien, we'll continue. ; )
Menelvagor Valar: what is it? spoil Menelvagor's conjunctions night?
VardaValar1: Yes!
VardaValar1: We will feed them lots of strawberries and cream.
Menelvagor Valar: if you think that is a fun way of spending time, I am sure it actually is fun.
VardaValar1: Menel, you had an actual Tolkien topic in your side-window. : )
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate.
VardaValar1: A couple of them even
Menelvagor Valar: one thing at a time :-D
Menelvagor Valar: the Knights of Dol Amroth: What is their relation to Elves?
VardaValar1: Nimrodels' maid.
Menelvagor Valar: and what did this relation mean for the people of Dol Amroth?
Eonwe Valar: I was under the impression only the Lords had any relation to Elves.
Menelvagor Valar: both visibly and not.
Star of Phaet: I'm off. Namarie folks :-)
ArPharazonV: indeed, those lords that descended from Nimrodel's maid were related to the elves
Menelvagor Valar: (Hello from Meghan, ex-Amarie)
VardaValar1: Her genes didn't spread through everyone, aye
VardaValar1: Bye
VardaValar1: Hi to Amarie-ex!
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ArPharazonV: however, through all those generations, all the lords wouldn't have been only child
VardaValar1: Longer life, better looks
VardaValar1: Intelligence
Basketballmatt2: I will be back
ArPharazonV: and those that did not ascend to the throne but were still ascnended from the lord, would slowly mingle with the "lower circles"
VardaValar1: Mabye a longer childhood.
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ArPharazonV: so by the end, a substantially larger portion of the people of Amroth may have had Elvish blood in them
VardaValar1: It would also thin over time if they didn't cross back, as royal families tend to do.
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, that is an interesting thought, Varda.
VardaValar1: The same thing could happen with Arwen's many children.
Eonwe Valar: Any Elvish blood would likely stay within the nobility, as nobility tends to maybe nobility.
ArPharazonV: *ascnended becomes descended... I do not know what I was thinking
Eonwe Valar: *maybe = marry.
VardaValar1: Fluent garble spoken here.
VardaValar1: Besides Eldarion, Arwen and Aragorn had a lot of daughters.
Menelvagor Valar: Might need a Babelfish here *chuckle*
ArPharazonV: well, it was said that from the unions of men and elves entered the Elvish blood in humanity which can be seen today in artists and the like.... and not all the famous artists descended directly from nobility ;-)
VardaValar1: Might help ; )
Eonwe Valar: I'd like to see where that quote came from, Phar :}
VardaValar1: If it started in nobility, then they were descended from nobility somewhere a way back.
ArPharazonV: so would I, actually... probably somewhere in the BoLT again
Eonwe Valar: heh, another Valar Guild homework assignment :}
ArPharazonV: aye, but after so many generations, that noble descent would hardly be visible in records of ancestry
VardaValar1: But it would still be there
ArPharazonV: while the actual blood would still be present
ArPharazonV: aye
ArPharazonV: so the same with Dol Amroth.... though the people may have been related to the nobility in some way, thus possessing Elvish blood... they would not have been necessarily part of the nobility at the time of the War of the Ring
ArPharazonV: though I admit, the amount of passing generations is a little bit smaller in that situation...
Eonwe Valar: That's assuming a failure of family fortune, loss of favor with the current lords, stuff like that.
Menelvagor Valar: Sorry to say so, as today seems to be a great day to be present at the discussion, but I need to go to bed. I have an early rise tomorrow.
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Menelvagor Valar: I trust Varda will handle the ever-raging Feanor discussion well, if you ever get to that :-)
ArPharazonV: well, yes... and as I said, with multiple offspring from one marriage, not all children automatically end up in the nobility... the nobility can't just continue to grow through so many generations,
VardaValar1: Trying to invite Amarie-ex : )
ArPharazonV: unless the population increases in the same proportions
Eonwe Valar: Usually the other children are well taken-care of, though.
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ArPharazonV: well, yes, but how about their children? and their children?
Eonwe Valar: Same.
ArPharazonV: for how long? until half the population is part of the nobility?
Eonwe Valar: That's where you get "esser" nobilty. Dukes and such.
Menelvagor Valar: welcome to our humble abode, sis :-)
Eonwe Valar: *lesser
staind32185: Hello thanks
ArPharazonV: Aiya, you sound familiar :-)
staind32185: i have been around for awhile
ArPharazonV: aye, Dukes and such... and the children of the Dukes that weren't heirs to the position of Duke?
ArPharazonV: where do they stand?
Eonwe Valar: They got positions in the military :}
VardaValar1: She used to be a member, Amarie, might rejoin in the future. : )
ArPharazonV: oh, cool
Eonwe Valar: In medieval times, I believe the other children were sent off to become clergymen as well, though there doesn't seem to be such an option in Arda.
staind32185: quite possible
ArPharazonV: so it's from lords to dukes to military officers... we're going down the ranks already
Eonwe Valar: Actually, wasn't "Knight" also a title of lesser nobility?
Eonwe Valar: Military officers can be quite powerful and important.
ArPharazonV: in 20 generations, a descendant of a lord may well have been reasonably part of the lower circles by then
ArPharazonV: unless you start counting the greater part of the population as some sort of nobility
Menelvagor Valar: regrettably, this is not one of those days I actually linger for a few more hours, so I bid you farewell and good night!
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Menelvagor!
staind32185: have a good night
VardaValar1: Namarie, Menelvagor
ArPharazonV: have fun overseas!
VardaValar1: Have a good trip!
staind32185: yes have fun in london
Eonwe Valar: Well, if all these nobles are all having all these children to make all this happen so fast, then there's a good chance they could intermarry and keep the relative population of nobility stable.
Menelvagor Valar: thanks everyone, Namarie!
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VardaValar1: There's a joke that every taxi driver in Italy is nobility.
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: The tendency of nobility is to try and climb the social ladder, not step a few rungs down.
ArPharazonV: well, if there are 4 children in every family for instance, that's just not always possible
VardaValar1: We could expect the elf blood to mostly concentrate in the nobility, which is why Legolas still detected it so many generations later.
ArPharazonV: so while indeed the blood concentrated in the nobility, it would probably have spread a bit to somewhat lower circles too
Eonwe Valar: let's say there are 4 children and 4 noble families, to keep the numbers small.
Eonwe Valar: *4 children for each.
Eonwe Valar: Who's to say all of these are sons?
ArPharazonV: it could be 2 sons and 2 daughters indeed
Eonwe Valar: There's a good chance more daughters will be born to some than others.
VardaValar1: Phar, I agree, thus the taxi driver comment.
ArPharazonV: aye, Varda :-)
VardaValar1: It may average 2 sons, 2 daughters.
Eonwe Valar: Let's say that is the average then.
Eonwe Valar: Then that still matches 1 man to one woman for each generation in which this holds true.
Eonwe Valar: so 16 children becomes 8 lines of nobility.
ArPharazonV: 4 noble families is 8 sons and 8 daughters, indeed 8 lines of nobility for 4 families
ArPharazonV: thus doubling the nobility
VardaValar1: No wonder they sent them off to the military. Keep the numbers down.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: The elf blood might help in cutting down the usual number of deaths by illness.
Eonwe Valar: This is assuming no unnatural deaths and the time to have children.
VardaValar1: Or the inclination to have children.
Eonwe Valar: The time to have 4 children even.
VardaValar1: Or even getting married at all.
ArPharazonV: so each generation the nobility doubles.. how long can a society keep that up?
Eonwe Valar: Aye, The nobility of Numenor tended to marry late. It may have been similar in Dol Amroth.
Eonwe Valar: It doubles only given ideal conditions, Phar.
VardaValar1: The nobility chooses one as heir, not generally all of them.
Eonwe Valar: You're also assuming no cloak and dagger between the nobles.
ArPharazonV: well, one can say the conditions are more ideal for the nobility than for the people, with the long Elvish lives, resistance to disease, and less chance to die as "cannon-fodder" in armies...
ArPharazonV: thus whatever the general conditions, proportionally speaking the nobility would still grow faster than the general population
VardaValar1: You might want to check how it worked in real life.
Eonwe Valar: The peasantry generally has more children than the nobility.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: in % speaking, the nobility tends to have more surviving children than the peasantry, no?
VardaValar1: Nobles tended to have fewer children
ArPharazonV: especially if the nobles have elvish blood
Eonwe Valar: More surviving, but still fewer. Elves rearely had more than 2-3 children. Fëanor was quite a marvel with his 7.
VardaValar1: You are trying to say all Dol Amroth was nobility, with a few peasants? : )
ArPharazonV: that's exactly what I would be saying, aye, if the nobility actually completely stayed nobility
ArPharazonV: which is why I'm saying that it didn't :-)
VardaValar1: It was rather common for country folk to have children in the double digits
ArPharazonV: yes... but was this also the case at Dol Amroth?
Eonwe Valar: I'm not saying all stayed nobility, I'm saying that unless they fell out of favor with the current nobility or they somehow lost their fortunes, it was unlikely they didn't remain in the nobility.
VardaValar1: Tolkien does not say, for anywhere, that I know of.
Eonwe Valar: The nobility manages to control its own population quite well :}
VardaValar1: There are lesser nobility, spawns romance novels where the daughter becomes a governess to other nobility.
ArPharazonV: whatever the case, Eonwe.... if nobility fell out of nobility, the Elvish blood would spread to the lower circles, though in lower concentrations indeed
Eonwe Valar: afk for a quick sec
ArPharazonV: so in the end, a substantially larger portion of Dol Amroth may have some degree in Elvish blood than just the nobility
VardaValar1: And that was one maid's blood, thinning out over time, especially among the peasants where it didn't mix back as often if ever.
ArPharazonV: *some degree of
ArPharazonV: Aragorn was 50 generations from Elros, and yet still seemed to have Elvish traits, no?
ArPharazonV: although the breeding there would have stayed relatively near the nobility, it's still a long time
Eonwe Valar: back
VardaValar1: Aragorn was very definitely kept in the noble blood lines.
VardaValar1: Their lives were long too, lengthening generation times.
VardaValar1: Also, Numenoreans were long-lived on their own
ArPharazonV: that's true
VardaValar1: The Numenorean blood itself would give them what would normally appear to be elvish traits, right down to dark hair and grey eyes.
VardaValar1: We know the Numenoreans had long lives.
VardaValar1: They were taller, stronger, more resistant to illness, without elvish blood additions.
VardaValar1: If the people of Dol Amroth also had Numenorean blood, then that would add in also.
VardaValar1: We know Imrahil was a cousin to the Stewards
VardaValar1: We know the Stewards had a lot of Numenorean
ArPharazonV: btw, how do we know that descending from Nimrodel's maid automatically gave longer life? if I recall from a quote I quoted not too long ago, anyone with human blood was mortal, and the Elvish immortality came from their exceptional
ArPharazonV: Fear
VardaValar1: so that augmented the elven blood line.
VardaValar1: It didn't give immortality, just longer life, possibly from increased strength and disease resistance.
ArPharazonV: the only thing we know is that Elros had a very long life, but was that because he descended from Elves, or because he was Numenorean?
VardaValar1: Why not both?
VardaValar1: It could even have been a gift.
ArPharazonV: could have been both.... but it might as well just have been the latter factor as well
VardaValar1: Phar, what point are you trying to make?
VardaValar1: I think I got lost somewhere. : )
ArPharazonV: that descending from Nimrodel's maid may not have given longer youth or an almost unnatural long life as we earlier stated
VardaValar1: Just slightly, and only a few generations.
ArPharazonV: true, true
VardaValar1: She was a maid, also, not a royal elf
ArPharazonV: maid or royal, she was still an elf, and thus immortal
ArPharazonV: shouldn't have mattered
ArPharazonV: her longevity, and whatever caused that longevity, whether by blood or not, was the same whether she was royal or maid, no?
Eonwe Valar: immortality was a constant in Elves, yes.
VardaValar1: But think of the effects on the population of Arwen's bunch of children. : )
Eonwe Valar: However, the Noldor, having seen the Light of the Two Trees, were as far beyond the Avari as the Avari were beyond Mortal man.
VardaValar1: Ok, you are saying elf characteristics are only due to their Fear, nothing to do with their bodies.
ArPharazonV: not their characteristics
ArPharazonV: just perhaps their longevity, and combined with that their lengthened youth
Eonwe Valar: The Calaquendi were taller than Avari.
ArPharazonV: though I could be seriously wrong, of course
Eonwe Valar: Just as Numenoreans were taller than Men of Middle-Earth.
ArPharazonV: I didn't say anything about physical stature, Eonwe... the length of their lives, not of their bodies, was what I speak of :-)
Eonwe Valar: pardon, you mentioned characteristics, so I brought that up.
staind32185: sadly though i am trying to keep up and i am so lost and sligtly disstracted so i am gonna go have some stuff to do before work
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Eonwe Valar: Just checked Sil btw, says Elros was "allotted" a life span many times greater than that of Men of Middle-Earth. Implies it was a gift from teh Valar to him and his line.
Eonwe Valar: *the
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Eonwe Valar: Take care ex-Amarie :}
VardaValar1: We have several people stating that they are lost. : )
ArPharazonV: ehrr.. I must admit... I'm slowly getting lost myself, and I'm the one who brought it up
ArPharazonV: perhaps dropping the matter would be best ;0
ArPharazonV: *;-)
VardaValar1: Menelvagor Valar: the Knights of Dol Amroth: What is their relation to Elves?
Bior the Ythling: i was saying im lost but more id say confused at some of the reasoning
VardaValar1: Menelvagor Valar: and what did this relation mean for the people of Dol Amroth?
Bior the Ythling: such as nobility spreading to lower classes
VardaValar1: Phar thinks the nobles would intermarry with the lower classes, over time.
ArPharazonV: remember, we're talking about dozens of generations here
VardaValar1: due to numbers.
Bior the Ythling: meh nobility typically werent allowed to marry into lower classes
Eonwe Valar: I will conceed to Elven blood going as far as the general nobility, but I doubt while Dol Amroth was strong it strayed much further.
VardaValar1: So all the English people would be related to the Queen of England by now. : )
Bior the Ythling: if it did happen most other nobles would consider the offspring to be bastards
ArPharazonV: bastards or not, they still have Elvish blood ;-)
Basketballmatt2: i agree
Bior the Ythling: elvish blood but they would never be considered nobles
VardaValar1: He's talking about the lesser nobility becoming even lesser over time, as there are more of them but the amount of land remains fairly stable.
Eonwe Valar: All Hobbits are very particular about their family line, and they don't really have nobility, per se. Regular nobles are even more particular. How much moreso would one be that had/ believed he had Elven blood in his veins?
VardaValar1: So the much lesser nobility marries into lesser ranks until it hits the peasants, bringing them super-attenuated elf blood which probably hand no effect at all.
ArPharazonV: Bilbo and Frodo were related to the Tooks... if the Tooks were nobility, were the Bagginses so as well?
VardaValar1: Bagginses were considered high up, aye
ArPharazonV: how about the Gamgees?
VardaValar1: and our Bagginses were related to the Tooks and Brandybucks.
ArPharazonV: since I recall a Gamgee marrying a Took in the end :-)
VardaValar1: Gamgees were considered peasants until Sam became mayor many times.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Hobbits can actually climb their social ladder :}
ArPharazonV: so there are occasions of lower families rising into nobility ;-)
VardaValar1: Sam became a sort of noble by his role in the Fellowship.
VardaValar1: Always, Phar. Nobles have to come from somewhere. But it can be very rare, needing some great deed.
VardaValar1: A "noble" deed.
ArPharazonV: is it so inconceivable that families keep climbing the social ladder, but no noble families, by misfortune or plain excess of people, fall down the ladder, at least partially?
ArPharazonV: wait, wrong wording, I guess
VardaValar1: Of course they do. But the elf blood of one maid becomes so thin as to have no effect after a while.
ArPharazonV: oh well, you got the point
Eonwe Valar: Nobes wouldn't simply say "Sorry, we've met our quota. You have to sweep our floors now."
Eonwe Valar: *Nobles
VardaValar1: As it mixes into the peasantry, it doesn't cross back much if ever.
VardaValar1: With the nobles, it keeps crossing back in.
Eonwe Valar: As I said, Nobles are quite good at controlling their own population through politics, intermarriage, cloak-and-dagger, and the like.
VardaValar1: Aye, keeping track of their own blood-lines.
ArPharazonV: so can we agree on this one point, that although the blood was concentrated and mixing back among the nobility, it was also present in a larger part of the population, even though less visible/effective?
Bior the Ythling: i wouldnt say a large part of the population
VardaValar1: Phar, not much would be in the main population, and that would be so thin as to be almost non-existent.
ArPharazonV: a larger part of the population than the nobility, was my point
ArPharazonV: nobility + 1 man is already larger than just the nobility
ArPharazonV: and thin, yes, almost non-existent, yes, but existent nonetheless
VardaValar1: Mostly, it seems that it would not have spread much into the peasantry.
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VardaValar1: That which did, would thin fiercely.
VardaValar1: Aiya Finrod.
TH0R0NGIL: aiya
Eonwe Valar: I still say due to other factors, the peasantry would not have a greater portion of the population with Elvish blood that the nobility.
VardaValar1: The nobility would nearly all if not all, have it, and in much greater degree.
ArPharazonV: of course not, Eonwe, but if we consider the nobility actually part of the population..
ArPharazonV: the part of the population that has elvish blood is actually bigger than just the nobility
VardaValar1: Phar, your point was to compare the two, not combine the two.
ArPharazonV: no, it wasn't :0
ArPharazonV: *:-)
VardaValar1: Ok.
VardaValar1: You want to say everyone in Dol Amroth had a wee bit of elvish
VardaValar1: I doubt it.
Eonwe Valar: Well then I miss the discussion. If we include the nobility into the population, of course there's Elvish blood in the population.
ArPharazonV: ...
VardaValar1: A higher percentage of those considered not nobles would have elvish than elsewhere, yes.
VardaValar1: But it's not very high.
Eonwe Valar: If the discussion is whether a greater portion of the peasantry (general population) than nobility had Elvish blood, I'd say no.
Oessala: /me agrees
Oessala: /me isn't sure with what, but he does
ArPharazonV: that was not the discussion, Eonwe
Bior the Ythling: thats wat it sounds like uve been arguin for the past 30 minutes or so
VardaValar1: Phar, boil it down and tell us what your point is if we are not getting it.
Oessala: What exactly are we comparing?
Oessala: I just read the backlog and I got lost along the way.
ArPharazonV: I'm just saying the peasantry also had some portion of blood, and not just the nobility alone... no matter how thin it was in the end, it was still there, so the lesser population of Dol Amroth does have some relation to the Elves
ArPharazonV: even though it was unobservable and nearly disappeared
VardaValar1: You are saying it was in the entire population of Dol Amroth.
ArPharazonV: well, part of the peasantry at least
ArPharazonV: not the entire peasantry
ArPharazonV: but still, part of the peasantry
VardaValar1: ok, sounds like a form of agreement here.
VardaValar1: Shalle we close for the night? : )
ArPharazonV: finally.. *wipes sweat off of forehead*
ArPharazonV: now, just one thing on my mind
ArPharazonV: when Menelvagor left, he spoke of a Feanor-subject ;-)
VardaValar1: I have it in a side window
ArPharazonV: share it with the group, or save it for next week?
VardaValar1: It was not a subject, just to talk about Feanor.
Orodreth V: Oooh, I have a topic, but I dunno how many people could discuss it.
VardaValar1: We did side-track into his temper. : )
ArPharazonV: give it a shot, Orodreth!
VardaValar1: Go ahead, Oro
ArPharazonV: brb, need to check something in UT
VardaValar1: *Imagines Oro flipping through books*
VardaValar1: afk, will look for topic on returning. : )
ArPharazonV: ok, back, found what I was looking for
ArPharazonV: and apparently Orodreth is having less luck than I in that respect ;-)
Orodreth V: oh, sorry, got distracted
Bior the Ythling: well its been fun guys but i gotta go tank some
Orodreth V: I was browsing the web a little while ago, and I came upon a site that says Babylon 5 is lord of the rings in space, to not put too fine of a point on it.
Bior the Ythling: Namarie
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ArPharazonV: I know Babylon 5, watched it for a while, though I can't remember much of it now
ArPharazonV: don't recall a distinct comparison to Lotr though
ArPharazonV: if they ever started rerunning it from the beginning, I'd surely go watch it though!
Eonwe Valar: I wasn't really into the old Babylon 5, and am less so in the new one.
Orodreth V: New one?
Orodreth V: /me perks up
ArPharazonV: there's a new one?
Eonwe Valar: There was an old 70s/80s (something like that) Babylon 5. There's a new one now.
Eonwe Valar: Made in the last couple of years.
Eonwe Valar: They decided to turn one of the guys from the old one into a woman in the new one. Think it was Starbuck.
ArPharazonV: hmm... do you have links with pictures from either show? I'm not sure which one I watched ;-)
VardaValar1: That's not Babylon 5
Eonwe Valar: oh, and the bad guys are called Psylons. That's about the extent of my knowledge about Babylon 5.
VardaValar1: Battlestar Galactica
Eonwe Valar: er, pardon
ArPharazonV: ah, right
Eonwe Valar: Again, shows my knowledge of Babylon 5 :}
VardaValar1: Annoying. I liked the old Starbuck guy. ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I dislike revisionist history :}
VardaValar1: Sort of a blonde Han Solo
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: I disliked Arwen becoming a warrior princess. Obviously I'm not going to like an entire gender change :}
VardaValar1: I enjoyed all the political finagling in Babylon 5.
Eonwe Valar: So what was Babylon 5 then?
VardaValar1: Arwen was not a warrior princess, thank Eru. So glad they pulled back from that.
ArPharazonV: aye, she was fighting in Helm's Deep in the earliest scenarios...
VardaValar1: A space station that got involved in politics by being on the border.
Eonwe Valar: Pulled back after she brandished a sword, gave it a name and history, etc... not much of a comfort.
VardaValar1: Aye, saw a couple of the Helm's Deep shots.
VardaValar1: That sword thing was annoying.
VardaValar1: I'm still miffed at the elves going to Helm's Deep. Or Theoden taking his people there!
VardaValar1: Unnecessary changes to my thinking.
VardaValar1: Elves were supposed to be protecting against the attacks up north.
Eonwe Valar: Some of it I can forgive. The Arwen thing is particularly annoying to me and stands as one of my pet peeves.
ArPharazonV: I actually killed Haldir today... when I attacked Lorien in BfME 2 ;-)
VardaValar1: But they didn't do it, Eonwe. : )
VardaValar1: You villain you. ; )
ArPharazonV: got Celeborn too, but that darn Galadiel got away...
Eonwe Valar: She held a sword. It had a name and a history.
VardaValar1: Ok, that was bad
Eonwe Valar: She took Glorfindel's place.
VardaValar1: and she took Frodo's defiance.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
VardaValar1: And she took Elrond's and Gandalf's river
VardaValar1: No way Elrond would have let her run out there in front of a mess of ringwraiths.
VardaValar1: Only the best warriors went out
ArPharazonV: well, now she was one of the best warriors...
VardaValar1: heh - and Elrond let her go, even if that were true?
ArPharazonV: in which part she took the part of her brothers too, I guess ;-)
VardaValar1: Ahh, you probably got that.
Eonwe Valar: Arg
VardaValar1: I was wondering if some of the dark-haired elf guys around her in the crowd scenes might be them
VardaValar1: That's how badly they were cut, if there.
ArPharazonV: Figwit ;-)
VardaValar1: heheh
ArPharazonV: Frodo is grea.... who is that??
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure they stayed in Rivendell where it was safe, hiding under their beds while Arwen rode out to fight the nasty Ringwraiths.
ArPharazonV: = F.i.g.w.i.t.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, here's another barf bag just for you. : )
Eonwe Valar: $7 billion to do LotR right would be more of a comfort :}
Eonwe Valar: but I'll settle for the barf bag :}
VardaValar1: They did better for that book than for many I've seen.
VardaValar1: But still, so many changes seemed unnecessary.
VardaValar1: Yet it was still a beautiful set of movies, wiping everything else off the radar.
Eonwe Valar: What's really sad is they beefed up Rosie's roll to counteract certain claims of Frodo and Sam, and TBS still makes that joke.
VardaValar1: Eonwe, TBS is far from alone.
Eonwe Valar: Well, bah to them all.
ArPharazonV: TBS?
VardaValar1: Their "relationship" among some others, started a cottage industry online.
Eonwe Valar: Turner Broadcasting Station, a cable station.
Eonwe Valar: *cable tv
Basketballmatt2 has left the room.
VardaValar1: They have some LotR videos, some pretty cute
ArPharazonV: I see
VardaValar1: But some should have warnings
VardaValar1: We have a link on our page
Basketballmatt2 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Bah to them all.
VardaValar1: Since we moved to movie-bashing, I declare After-meeting. : )
VardaValar1: *clinks goblet with a spoon*

After-meeting, mostly more Tolkien  ;)  :
Eonwe Valar: Sorry, just started thinking about that change to Arwen,...
VardaValar1: I'm all for talking about that : )
VardaValar1: That was depressing
ArPharazonV: the lotr videos... where can I find the link again?
VardaValar1: You're going to make me look? :-)
Eonwe Valar: The women in LotR are important in their own right without the meddling of people striving for "girl power."
VardaValar1: I could send you to some better ones, on the Mellon Chronicles Media page : )
ArPharazonV: there's like 5000 links in that list...
VardaValar1: hehe - try categories
ArPharazonV: if you can't find it, how would I be able to? ;-)
VardaValar1: I didn't want to look, will do it
Basketballmatt2: time for me to go
Eonwe Valar: Take care Malbeth
ArPharazonV: bye Seer!
ArPharazonV: got it!
ArPharazonV: don't go lookin', I found them!
VardaValar1:,,70708, 00.html
VardaValar1: Didn't take me long
VardaValar1: bye Malbeth
VardaValar1: I do recommend the Mellon Chronicles media page much over that though
Eonwe Valar: afk for a sec
ArPharazonV: yup, found it, but thanks :-)
VardaValar1: Even though the MC page is for their stories.
VardaValar1: Might be someone reading this transcript who wants the link.
VardaValar1: Unlikely anyone is reading it, but you never know. ;-)
Eonwe Valar: back
ArPharazonV: and, of course, no linking of Lotr-movie-movies is complete without
Eonwe Valar: That looks familiar for some reason.
ArPharazonV: probably because I linked it before :-)
Orodreth V:
Eonwe Valar: What's there?
Orodreth V: sorry, having issues elsewhere. that's the link. I think some of the compairisons are stretching it, but there is alot to be said for what's not
Orodreth V: the compairisons of B5/LotR
Orodreth V: And now I need to go.
Eonwe Valar: Take care orodreth
Orodreth V: /me bows out
ArPharazonV: bye Orodreth!
Srekal86 has left the room.
Srekal86 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Namarie Orodreth
VardaValar1: Supported your Google petition.
ArPharazonV: he's probably so tied up elsewhere that he's too busy to log out ;-)
ArPharazonV: Google petition?
VardaValar1: le_logo_petition#Supporting_websites
VardaValar1: albinoblacksheep is "They're taking the hobbits to Isengard"
ArPharazonV: yup
Eonwe Valar: So we're linked on that page for the goggle petition?
ArPharazonV: yup, Valarguild is on the list
Eonwe Valar: Ah, I see.
ArPharazonV: of supporting websites
Eonwe Valar: Interesting
Eonwe Valar: That is a very interesting petition.
ArPharazonV: question: where were the 7 palantiri located again at first? I have Osgiliath, Minas Anor, Minas Ithil, Orthanc, Amon Sul, and Elostirion... but I'm missing one
TH0R0NGIL: grey havens
ArPharazonV: grey havens? a palantir? you sure?
TH0R0NGIL: i believe so
TH0R0NGIL: the tower there
ArPharazonV: that's Elostirion
TH0R0NGIL: i think that was the one that looked only to the sea
ArPharazonV: on the Tower Hills
TH0R0NGIL: oh, ok
VardaValar1: Cirdan had one
TH0R0NGIL: didn't remember that name
VardaValar1: yep
TH0R0NGIL: yeah...
TH0R0NGIL: he did
Eonwe Valar: There was likely one in Fornost, since that was the capital of Arnor.
ArPharazonV: ah, yes, thank you UT.. there was one in Annuminas
Basketballmatt2 has left the room.
VardaValar1: Pardon, been reading on your katspace link : )
ArPharazonV: reading about the palantiri on that encyclopedia you linked...
ArPharazonV: One Stone was placed in the tower of Elostirion in the Tower Hills, just west of The Shire. Until it was taken back to the West with the three Elven Rings, it could be used to look along the Straight Road to Avallonë.
ArPharazonV: I never knew the stone of Elostirion was taken to the West..
VardaValar1: TolkienGateway?
ArPharazonV: aye
VardaValar1: That can be edited by anyone who pops in, but hopefully errors will all be caught by Hyarion/Srekal and others...
ArPharazonV: error or not, that's what I want to know :-)
VardaValar1: Check it out : )
ArPharazonV: was the Stone of Elostirion taken to the West with the Ringbearers? It doesn't ring a bell at all....
Eonwe Valar: When in doubt, go straight to the Source. RotK :}
VardaValar1: Right on, Eonwe
VardaValar1: or Sil
VardaValar1: "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" has a bit on the palantiri.
ArPharazonV: good call
VardaValar1: We've had several people say they're going to do an article on the Palantiri in general, hasn't happened yet.
Eonwe Valar: Complete Guide says it was on the Last Ship, didn't find it where I expected in RotK.
ArPharazonV: doesn't seem to be in Of the Rings of Power either
VardaValar1: Cirdan would take it with him if he had it, logically
ArPharazonV: it was in the tower on the Tower Hills
VardaValar1: Of the Rings of Power is more where they came from
VardaValar1: yep
VardaValar1: Which is near Cirdan
ArPharazonV: near Cirdan, aye, but not in his direct possession... not so obvious that he would take it with him
VardaValar1: So he would just leave it there? : )
VardaValar1: Anyway, I'm not saying anything definite
VardaValar1: Just that this is the spot that says where a bunch of them started out
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: The Eldar passed them to the Faithful for their comfort
VardaValar1: After you got their home sunk ;-)
ArPharazonV: the stones of Amon Sul, Annuminas, and Osgiliath were lost in the sea
ArPharazonV: Minas Tirith was unusable, but doesn't say where it went
VardaValar1: "all those brought to Middle-earth long ago were lost"
ArPharazonV: Orthanc came to Tirith, in the hands of Aragorn
ArPharazonV: Morgul/Barad-dur was buried/destroyed when the tower fell
ArPharazonV: probably buried
ArPharazonV: that leaves Elostirion... where did that one go?
ArPharazonV: it's pretty much possible and reasonable that Cirdan took it with him... but where's the source on that?
Eonwe Valar: Aha! Seems the sons of Elrond did remain.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: "This Stone and its tower were maintained and guarded by Cirdan and the Elves of Lindon." But more I can't seem to find.
Eonwe Valar: So it stands to reason they chose mortal man since they didn't go with Elrond. Debate ended :}
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe.
VardaValar1: Would be interesting if Cirdan left the stone to the twins. :-) Unlikely though, I fear.
ArPharazonV: you said it's in the Complete Guide?
VardaValar1: This description of Mirkwood reminds me of our rp. :
ArPharazonV: perhaps whomever wrote it on the Tolkien gateway took it from the Complete Guide...
Eonwe Valar: Aye, under Palantir
Eonwe Valar: Not very good on checking sources then.
ArPharazonV: but where the Complete Guide got it from... will we ever know? can we ever know? was it ever mentioned?
VardaValar1: and we have to find it right this minute, heh
ArPharazonV: perhaps it started with speculation and reasoning, and later was practically taken for a fact
ArPharazonV: and then it was written down
Eonwe Valar: The complete guide uses the term "half" orc then proceeds to say it's never used in LotR when it's used 3 times, so not exactly the most precise guide.
Eonwe Valar: *"half-orc"
VardaValar1: It's a good starter, not a definitive work, but one of the best.
VardaValar1: That's why we require original references.
VardaValar1: After a while everyone is quoting everyone but Tolkien. ; )
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: "...a darkness crept slowly through the wood from the southward, and fear walked there in shadowy glades; fell beasts came hunting,
VardaValar1: "and cruel and evil creatures laid their snares."
VardaValar1: Mirkwood.
VardaValar1: I don't think it means the same fell beasts as the nazgul used, but it could be interesting if this is part of where their ancestors started.
VardaValar1: Something to play with in the rp? : )
ArPharazonV: where's that from?
VardaValar1: Snaring from the Mirkwood spiders, I guess
VardaValar1: Same source:
VardaValar1: Sil, "Of the Rings of Power..."
ArPharazonV: ahh
Eonwe Valar: aha!
Eonwe Valar: found it
ArPharazonV: !
VardaValar1: p 371 Ballantine paperback 1979
Eonwe Valar: In a note on page 400, Ballantine edition of RotK
ArPharazonV: *rushes off to get Rotk*
Eonwe Valar: Mine are 1965 edition :}
VardaValar1: cool. : ) Now quote! ;-)
Eonwe Valar: er, 1972
Eonwe Valar: ok
VardaValar1: my RotK starts on p 731
ArPharazonV: ah, yes, found it
Eonwe Valar: "The only stone left in the north was the one in the Tower on Emyn Beraid that looks towards the Gulf of Lune.
ArPharazonV: "That was guarded by the Elves, and though we never knew it, it remained there, until Cirdan put it aboard Elrond's ship when he left."
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: Yay! I remembered reading, but not where. Bless you both.
VardaValar1: Chapter?
Eonwe Valar: That was guarded by the Elves, and though we never knew it, it remained there, until Cirdan put it aboard Elrond's ship when he left."
Eonwe Valar: Appendix A
Eonwe Valar: note 2
Eonwe Valar: subsection iii
Eonwe Valar: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heairs of Isildur
Eonwe Valar: *heirs
ArPharazonV: aye, where it speaks of king Arvedui and the foundering of his ship
Eonwe Valar: yep
Eonwe Valar: And the day is saved, thanks to...
Eonwe Valar: The Valar Guild! :}
Srekal86: VardaValar1: looks like you signed the petition ;-)
VardaValar1: Yes, tried to tell you when you came in a bit ago. : )
VardaValar1: Sounded like a good idea.
Srekal86: yep, yep.
ArPharazonV: so yes, it did go west with the Ringbearers...
ArPharazonV: good to have a confirmation from Rotk
VardaValar1: This is hilarious. I had a blue bookmark right on that spot.
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: shame on Varda for not knowing everything about the place she puts her bookmarks :}
VardaValar1: It was for something else, but still, very funny.
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Sooo much junk in my head that I am not sure where is from, scary. ;-)
VardaValar1: ok, so we do we put Pharazon the Golden to bed now?
ArPharazonV: yes, that would be a good idea, I must admit
VardaValar1: It's a good spot
Eonwe Valar: Escape while you can :}
VardaValar1: We just accomplished something. :-)
ArPharazonV: was thinking of doing some BfME2 if we were done early... but for some reason we never are ;-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: We did bang the gavel a good while back
Eonwe Valar: After-meeting was declared about an hour ago :}
Eonwe Valar: maybe 2 :}
ArPharazonV: oh well, tomorrow's another day! I've looked at scenario 5, and it seems I get to attack northern Mirkwood now :-)
VardaValar1: We need one of Menelvagor's timed transcripts
ArPharazonV: I can give that, but it'd be europe time
VardaValar1: But should we run into an ancestor of a fell beast in Mirkwood? : )
VardaValar1: It's not really important, Phar. We're just kidding around with you. : )
ArPharazonV: I"m not sure, but if tomorrow goes succesful, I'm throwing cavetrolls and stone giants at Thranduil ;-)
ArPharazonV: and perhaps even a drake or 2 if this scenario finally lets me
VardaValar1: drake?
Eonwe Valar: Btw, check into Tom Bombadil being a hero in BFME2. I heard an awefully lot of singing from a hero in a preview movie I saw.
ArPharazonV: no idea, haven't started on the good campaign yet
Eonwe Valar: ah
Eonwe Valar: could check the world editor :}
VardaValar1: Smaug should have been the last to worry about.
ArPharazonV: but I "scoured the shire" earlier today, and didn't run into him, so perhaps there'll be an Old Forest map later
VardaValar1: I'm still trying to find a way to be Fainan instead of my brother. : )
ArPharazonV: the shire had a nice twist...
ArPharazonV: I was the goblin king, and took revenge on the Hobbits for the failed invasion so much earlier
ArPharazonV: and at the end, Wormtongue came to claim the Shire for Saruman
ArPharazonV: and I got to attack and kill him!
Eonwe Valar: Hear that all those death screams? That's lore being slaughtered :}
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: BfME has always been adept at... adapting the storyline ;-)
ArPharazonV: especially for the evil side, since that's not actually supposed to win :-)
ArPharazonV: let's see.. mission 1 was attacking Lorien from Dol Guldur, I slew Haldir and Celeborn, Galadiel fled, and Caras Galadhon was destroyed
Eonwe Valar: EA has been adept at butchering lore *cough* Third Age *cough*
ArPharazonV: mission 2: attacking Mithlond with a fleet of Corsairs, afterwards came Goblin reinforcements from the north
ArPharazonV: no heroes slain that I know of, but wouldn't surprise me if I killed Cirdan in the chaos
ArPharazonV: mission 3: conquering the Shire, destroying the power centres of the 4 farthings, destroying Bag End and the Green Dragon as bonus objectives, and capturing Longbottom Farm
ArPharazonV: and obviously, killing Wormtongue
ArPharazonV: mission 4: attacking Fornost, finishing off the dunedain, as well as an army of Dwarves from the Blue Mountains which had allied with the dunedain
ArPharazonV: as well as killing Gloin
Eonwe Valar: Don't tell too many spoilers :}
ArPharazonV: next mission west of the Misty Mountains was already said to be Rivendell, but "that would have to wait"
ArPharazonV: and mission 5 is Mirkwood, which I'll start tomorrow
Eonwe Valar: There might actually be a person out there who will buy the game sometime in the near future :}
ArPharazonV: haha, allright
Eonwe Valar: However, do feel free to write a review for the Games Page :}
ArPharazonV: it's just so funny.... lore butchered, legendary figures slain around every corner...
ArPharazonV: the tranquil places of the world conquered in a heartbeat
ArPharazonV: I'm loving what they did to the story ;-)
ArPharazonV: anyway, time for bed
ArPharazonV: I'll be saving and sending
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well :}
ArPharazonV: thanks, I will... especially since we located the source on that odd piece of fact in Rotk ;-)
ArPharazonV: saved
Eonwe Valar: Oh yeah, Do the Children's Week quest! :}
ArPharazonV: is that this week?
Eonwe Valar: I hear there's some non-combat pets this year :}
Eonwe Valar: Yep
ArPharazonV: nice, I'll be sure to do so
VardaValar1: Aye, we need to mention that on the site/forum somewhere.
Eonwe Valar: Meant to mention at meeting, should've jotted down with my quest report notes.
ArPharazonV: I'm in Silithus now though, and tomorrow evening we're going to the 20-man Ahn'Qiraj instance
ArPharazonV: but Tuesday I'll give it a go
VardaValar1: I heard they had a lot of confusion on the timing. Is it actually going to be going starting what Monday?
Eonwe Valar: May 9th
Eonwe Valar: If memory serves
VardaValar1: You have a Games page with a news section
VardaValar1: That's Tuesday, k
VardaValar1: Elwing just went home, reason I went quiet and let Phar get in a word edgewise.
Eonwe Valar: Aye. Would be good to have on the WoW page as well, make WoW guys use the WoW page :}
VardaValar1: We have a problem there
ArPharazonV: transcript is sent!
VardaValar1: Menelvagor and I have been discussing it
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar!
Eonwe Valar: Oh?
VardaValar1: When Menel tried to put up his new WoW Europe page,
VardaValar1: told him we were overquota on memory
VardaValar1: giving as a limit the old limit.
Eonwe Valar: uh oh
VardaValar1: But I can upload using the new limit.
VardaValar1: Have you tried it?
Eonwe Valar: hmm
Eonwe Valar: no, guess I should.
VardaValar1: He thinks it's because he had an old ftp
ArPharazonV: flightpoint? no...
VardaValar1: You could upload the news
Eonwe Valar: Actually, I take that back, I've been messing with my PHP stuff, so yeah, I've tried it.
VardaValar1: file transfer protocol
ArPharazonV: ahh
VardaValar1: not fp : )
VardaValar1: Welcome to the wide world of alphabet soup. Again.
VardaValar1: So you had no problem.
ArPharazonV: don't start, I'm still confused all the time between Molten Core and mind-control ;-)
ArPharazonV: darn MC!
Eonwe Valar: It's all about context :}
ArPharazonV: true :-)
VardaValar1: Aye, context is key. : )
VardaValar1: dm and DM and DM o my
VardaValar1: deadmines
VardaValar1: Dire Maul
VardaValar1: Dungeon Master
ArPharazonV: level 60 asking: "Want to join for DM?" Funny guy: "Deadmines?"
ArPharazonV: actually, we figured out that DM is Dire Maul and Dm is Deadmines ;-)
ArPharazonV: it's all about the spaces!
VardaValar1: Depends on who is typing
ArPharazonV: well, Namarie, I must be off
VardaValar1: Namarie!
ArPharazonV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Afk for a couple of minutes.
TH0R0NGIL has left the room.
VardaValar1: Namarie, I'm out for now. Considering WoW later, if things are peaceful.