May 28, 2006 Meeting
5pm EST (GMT - 5);
(GMT = 22:00)
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AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharazon-(V),
Members: ArPharazonV (presiding over
Tolkien), Arwen V1, Finrod-(V)/TH0R0NGIL, Gil-galad-(V)/Xseanzee disco,
Olwe-(V)/FallenGlory, VardaValar1 (presiding over business)
Meeting begins (about a half-hour late, computer problems)
Fundin-(V) is now a Full Member! He's been a Member of Honor sponsored by Orome-(Valar)
Gil-galad-(V) no longer has the WoW-capable computer
or account available. Ereinion will be missed in Lothar.
Valandil-(V) still plays a little WoW in Europe
BhonTuath, visiting today, is
interested in joining the Valar Guild, and has sent in material for the
Tolkien site. Computer problems on Varda's end prevented it from being
up yet. She is also interested in gaming in LotRO and signed up for the
Art: new art from Elwing and Turgon
Hobbits: How do hobbits differ from other races in Middle-earth?
Cousins: page explaining how cousins are related, found by Arwen-(V) for the Hobbit discussion.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Arwen V1: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: will be kinda late, we're in a baron-run
ArPharazonV: should only take about... 15 more minutes or so
Arwen V1: Varda isnt going to make the meeting
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
BhonTuath has entered the room.
BhonTuath: Aiya Hail good people
VardaValar1: We had the latest start ever today, sorry
FallenGlory has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Olwe
ArPharazonV: I'm a bit late, had to finish my baron-run
ArPharazonV: got a quest finished, and the Cape of the Black Baron for catform!
VardaValar1: I had to find a computer
ArPharazonV: and before that, I kited Hogger to Booty Bay using nothing but catform and faerie fire...
ArPharazonV: so great!
VardaValar1: Mine has been moved to a new room, no internet there yet
VardaValar1: Arwen is eating
VardaValar1: I was just getting everyone set up for dinner
VardaValar1: one sec, will set up
BhonTuath: Forgive my shyness I am stranger in these realms
VardaValar1: Forgive us too, for we are unusually disorganized today :-)
VardaValar1: Memorial Day weekend plus living arrangements hit us this weekend
VardaValar1: A lot of the guild are over at my house :0
VardaValar1: Great fun
BhonTuath: Then we shall forgive each other with the Valar's blessing :-)
VardaValar1: I'll run through the business part quickly, then we can move on to new business.
VardaValar1: If you have anything to add to a section, normally whisper the chair to be sure you are added to the talk
VardaValar1: That lets everyone get a word in edgewise
VardaValar1: Today, we have very few people, so we don't need to be as strict as usual
VardaValar1: The rules are there mainly to keep down the chaos level in a room full of people.
VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership News:
VardaValar1: Bhon is visiting today, good to have you here : )
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
VardaValar1: You've emailed and I hope your questions were answered?
VardaValar1: Aiya Gil-galad :-)
Xseanzee disco: heeeye
BhonTuath: I feel honoured by your acknowledgement
VardaValar1: Thank you for coming today.
VardaValar1: Is there any other membership news?
VardaValar1: Gil-galad, didn't think you'd have a comp : )
VardaValar1: Glad you could make it!
Xseanzee disco: using my brother's
VardaValar1: We thank your brother : )
VardaValar1: More on Membership news:
VardaValar1: At my house today are Elwing (who is looking over the shoulder) ;-)
Xseanzee disco: :-) i have one. its just not decent enough to play wow. :-) plus my brother has the account
VardaValar1: Merry, Arwen
VardaValar1: and the family - Fangorn, Sauron, Eowyn, Bilbo
VardaValar1: Gimli dropped by with his twins : )
VardaValar1: That's good news, Gil. Maybe you'll be able to come here on AIM with your comp at least : )
VardaValar1: Web News:
VardaValar1: The page on humans is still being re-worked
VardaValar1: It's the most complicated of the lot, and I'm working on it offline
VardaValar1: It has a zillion side links since everyone is related to everyone and their lines of rulership go all over.
VardaValar1: For the Tolkien art page:
VardaValar1: Elwing sent in a new piece: "Halbarad"
VardaValar1: It's being used as the current guild page header
VardaValar1: We change those around fairly often
ArPharazonV: everyone is related to everyone, eh....
ArPharazonV: *hides the marriage to his cousin*
VardaValar1: Phar, you dog. Next you'll tell me you're the one in that fleet headed this way, about to be destroyed.
VardaValar1: Turgon sent in three new pieces of art
VardaValar1: "Faramir", "Minas Tirith", and "Silmaril"
ArPharazonV: whatwhat? what fleet? *puts a big blanket over his countless ships* I have no fleet!
VardaValar1: That is one very large blanket.
ArPharazonV: well, it's wool, and we have a lot of sheep!
VardaValar1: A blanket sailing this way, how peculiar. I'll ask Manwe about it.
VardaValar1: Eonwe is working on php trying to speed up the thumbnail making process for the art page.
VardaValar1: It's hard for anything to be faster than Arwen's flying fingers in Photoshop when she gets going though. : )
VardaValar1: Any further webwork?
VardaValar1: Most of our webworkers aren't here, makes this part fast. ;-)
VardaValar1: Gaming News:
ArPharazonV: was gonna mention you had a wrong link to the transcript
ArPharazonV: but it seems you fixed that ;-)
VardaValar1: Didn't I fix it?
ArPharazonV: aye, you did
VardaValar1: Menelvagor kindly emailed me about it.
VardaValar1: It's the way it was being changed, so I went back to the long way. It works : )
VardaValar1: Gaming News:
VardaValar1: Did anyone play anything besides WoW this last week?
VardaValar1: I tried to install the Hobbit, but it takes one of our better machines, so we're considering it on one of those.
ArPharazonV: not sure if I did some Guildwars this week... hmm... I think the last time was at the end of last week's meeting
VardaValar1: Tuor needs you. ;-)
VardaValar1: But WoW is so addictive...
ArPharazonV: I know... I did my first Arathi Basin yesterday
VardaValar1: Bhon, did you play anything?
BhonTuath: I played a bit Diablo and a bit runescape
VardaValar1: Hold your ships, Phar, just about to turn you loose on your report. ; )
VardaValar1: Diablo? Which one?
BhonTuath: I had a look at WoW because I heard seach a lot ..
BhonTuath: Diablo II
VardaValar1: You looked at the WoW website or what?
VardaValar1: Ahh, do you play any Lord of Destruction - the Diablo expansion?
BhonTuath: not regularly its been a while indeed but I have got it
VardaValar1: I do that sometimes.
VardaValar1: We operate in East, out of Valar channel
VardaValar1: You might spot Orodreth's Valar Buddy bot there
VardaValar1: The command list is on our site.
BhonTuath: I haven't played it online but it might be worth trying
BhonTuath: Do you have to pay a fee?
VardaValar1: For WoW you pay a fee, not much worse than a magazine
VardaValar1: It's cheaper for longer sign ups
BhonTuath: and ye 've got to buy the game ..
VardaValar1: You don't have a fee for D2X
ArPharazonV: oh, thanks for reminding me... I need to check when my two months are up again... shouldn't be too long
VardaValar1: Aye, you do.
VardaValar1: They love to remind you, Phar. ; )
VardaValar1: I do it automatically as a 6-month thing by credit card.
BhonTuath: Will see maybe some time and I signed up for MEO
ArPharazonV: June 8.... I'll get a new card somewhere next week
VardaValar1: They call it LotRO now, but MeO looks so familiar :-)
VardaValar1: Cool, Phar. Can't have you without your WoW : )
BhonTuath: oh aye *g* , how could I forgot I am quite regularly on their sigte *g*]
VardaValar1: I think the sign-up for the beta might allow updates, as in if you join a guild or add computer information.
VardaValar1: What name do you use there, if I may be so bold?
VardaValar1: On LotRO site
BhonTuath: Ferinor - to your service *bows*
VardaValar1: Fainan, at yours and your family's.
ArPharazonV: and may your beards grow ever longer ;-)
VardaValar1: Thank you
VardaValar1: um, only if Manwe likes it. : )
VardaValar1: Phar, would you like to give your WoW Europe report now?
ArPharazonV: eh, sure
ArPharazonV: was quite an interesting week, personally
ArPharazonV: after about 6 months of grinding and waiting, I finally got my hands on the Breastplate of Bloodthirst
ArPharazonV: an epic chestpiece, using a Pristine Hide, some arcanite, and other rare items
VardaValar1: 6 month wait. ouch
ArPharazonV: cost me about 750g, but it's one of the best chestpieces for catform in the game :-)
ArPharazonV: but it's all over now, and it's mine... so I can finally turn my attention to an epic mount again ;0
VardaValar1: Mount price nearly
VardaValar1: Did you see any of the Euro Valar?
ArPharazonV: nope, not much
VardaValar1: I fear Aragorn and Valandil are becoming too isolated.
ArPharazonV: Valandile's still online some times, including today
VardaValar1: On WoW or AIM?
ArPharazonV: but atm he's still too low (or I'm too high) to work together
ArPharazonV: I did my first Arathi Basin this weekend, one of the 3 battlegrounds
ArPharazonV: it was quite funny, and interesting.. I might get into pvp after all
ArPharazonV: on the side, of course.. pve will still be my main focus
ArPharazonV: we're starting to make progress on our next boss in Ahn'Qiraj again, Princess Huhuran
ArPharazonV: got her to 12% on our best try this week
ArPharazonV: guess we still need a tad bit more Nature resistance items.. but we're surely getting her
ArPharazonV: and today, I got started on a new hobby in the game.... kiting Hogger
ArPharazonV: Hogger's a quite famous elite gnoll, lvl 12, in one of the lowest zones of the game
VardaValar1: We've met him too. : )
ArPharazonV: some people try to kite him long distances, as well as other low-level mobs
Arwen V1: Whats kiting?
ArPharazonV: pull him, get him to notice you, and draw him away over long distances without killing him
Arwen V1: lol
ArPharazonV: need to use an ability or whatever on him every few sec, otherwise he runs away
ArPharazonV: but don't do damage, or you'll kill him quite fast, as he's very low-level
Arwen V1: that sounds kind of hard for a high level
ArPharazonV: one particular kite was all over the WoW-forums once, a
warlock using a non-damaging debuff to kite him all the way from Elwynn
Forest to the Undercity in the north
Arwen V1: what class do you do this with?
Arwen V1: oh wow
ArPharazonV: I, however, am a druid, and have found a quite useful ability
ArPharazonV: in catform I can faerie fire him without damaging him
ArPharazonV: with no mana cost, and a cooldown in 6 seconds, it's quite easy to go a long way
Arwen V1: cool :-)
Xseanzee disco has left the room.
ArPharazonV: also, since I'm feral-talented, I have an outdoor runningspeed bonus in catform.. so I can stay ahead of him always
ArPharazonV: it also does a good amount of aggro, threat, so you won
ArPharazonV: 't easily lose him
VardaValar1: Do you run into problems with your other guild for running Feral instead of Healer?
ArPharazonV: had a paladin with me to observe and take screenshots... it was quite funny
Arwen V1: it sounds fun =P
ArPharazonV: no, not really... they've come to accept me and find me useful in many occasions
ArPharazonV: as the only feral druid in the guild, I'm often used when we're short of tanks etc
ArPharazonV: warriors, that is
ArPharazonV: I can also do a good amount of damage these days, and my aura that benefits rogues and hunters is also appreciated
ArPharazonV: and of course, when needed, I can still do my share of healing
VardaValar1: That's good to hear, that they accept you.
ArPharazonV: our loot is distributed by a free-for-all bidding system, every item is open to every class
ArPharazonV: so I don't have to wait for all the rogues and warriors etc to get a feral item :-)
ArPharazonV: so yes, I'm quite accepted
ArPharazonV: anyway, Hogger...
ArPharazonV: on our first try I got him all the way to Lakeshire
ArPharazonV: where some low-level players killed him, trying to help :-)
ArPharazonV: our second try was amazing.... decided to take him south, to Booty Bay
TH0R0NGIL has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: was a great succes, we got him to the island to the
southeast of Booty Bay, and took a screenshot of him next to King
Mukla, the lvl 50 elite giant gorilla
VardaValar1: Aiya Finrod : )
ArPharazonV: after that, I took him to the boats to the south, unfortunately he was slain there...
Arwen V1: that is so cool =P
ArPharazonV: next time we're going north again, trying to get him to
Blackrock Mountain or even Tyr's Hand in the Eastern Plaguelands :-)
ArPharazonV: that little Hogger deserves a day out ;-)
Arwen V1: lol
Arwen V1: I feel sorry for the people trying to quest for him though, too =P
ArPharazonV: some other famous kites are getting the mobs from the Blasted Lands to Stormwind
ArPharazonV: there's an enemy there who can only be slain if you take out one of the crystals he's sitting at
ArPharazonV: so take him far away, and he simply can't die
ArPharazonV: got quite a crowd in Stormwind Keep ;-)
Arwen V1: trying to kill him?
ArPharazonV: aye :-)
Arwen V1: and he just wouldnt die?
Arwen V1: thats hillarious
Arwen V1: I can just imagine all those lvl 60's trying...
ArPharazonV: reports went around on the worlddefense channel about a
horde-player (the mobs are tauren) cheating and invading Stormwind
ArPharazonV: but it was just an invulnerable mob who still did some damage ;-)
Arwen V1: lolol
ArPharazonV: such things only end when GMs reset the whole thing :-)
ArPharazonV: especially after the powerful npcs in Stormwind Keep get aggro on him... no way you can get him out again ;-)
Arwen V1: ouch =P
Arwen V1: bet that isnt popular with GMs =P
ArPharazonV: it isn't, no :-)
VardaValar1: That does sound like a problem for questers, but the attraction of kiting is strong.
ArPharazonV: well, that latter thing isn't that much of a problem
VardaValar1: If you can return the mob once you're done, that should work out.
ArPharazonV: there are 9 of such mobs in the area
ArPharazonV: so for people needing to kill them, it's no problem
VardaValar1: No worries then.
ArPharazonV: when you need to speak to the Stormwind Keep npcs, however... it does pose a bit of an issue ;-)
ArPharazonV: there's also a neutral npc in Orgrimmar that's attackable, lvl 12
ArPharazonV: it seems it's a tradition for every horde to HS back to Orgrimmar to kill him
ArPharazonV: and some famous kites include him :-)
ArPharazonV: I've heard about people kiting him to Darkshore, or to Silithus...
ArPharazonV: he's pretty much the horde-equivalent to Hogger, in that way
Arwen V1: thats funny =)
Arwen V1: I was reading what you were typing
Arwen V1: instead of paying attention to wow, and my 53 warrior died in deadmines =P
ArPharazonV: I wonder if I could get Mukla on the loose in Lakeshire or something... would be fun
ArPharazonV: there also seems to be a lvl 55 elite elemental in the
Burning Steppes... if he has no ranged attack, I might get him one zone
south to Lakeshire... see what happens ;-)
Arwen V1: =)
ArPharazonV: anyway, I guess that story about kiting wraps up my report for today
VardaValar1: Thank you Phar.
VardaValar1: WoW Lothar has been busy, doing all sorts of things at odd times as we bump into each other.
VardaValar1: The best news is
VardaValar1: Fundin-V, a Member of Honor sponsored by Orome-Valar
VardaValar1: is now a Full Member!
VardaValar1: He passed his test this week. : )
ArPharazonV: congratulations Fundin!
Arwen V1: yay! =D
VardaValar1: We were all very happy. He told us in WoW. : )
VardaValar1: In WoW Lothar for guild night,
VardaValar1: the group escorted my enchanter to Uldaman for the Enchanting artisan, and got some enchants in return.
VardaValar1: Then moved on to Black Rock Depths
VardaValar1: We didn't get far there, as people kept having to leave, but intend to try again.
ArPharazonV: Black Rock Depths is a huge instance... never heard anyone finishing the entire thing in one go
VardaValar1: We have the goal of collecting all keys that we can, all flight paths, and getting the attunements
VardaValar1: for all those who come regularly.
VardaValar1: Also, the Trivia contest is still on, and we are collecting goodies for prizes.
VardaValar1: If you'd like to do the same for the Euro group, feel free. ;-)
ArPharazonV: I'll consider it, but my funds are a little bit low now ;-)
VardaValar1: We send in items we find such as patterns, leather, resources
VardaValar1: You should not have to do it alone.
VardaValar1: Is there any further business?
VardaValar1: BhonTuath is wishing a test, and both of us are having a time problem and need to start soon.
VardaValar1: Tolkien chat:
VardaValar1: Does anyone have a topic they would like to discuss?
VardaValar1: Phar, you may be operating the chat.
ArPharazonV: do we have a topic?
VardaValar1: No one offered one.
VardaValar1: If you don't have one, I'll come up with one.
ArPharazonV: go ahead :-)
VardaValar1: Who all will be chatting?
ArPharazonV: *raises hand*
VardaValar1: Bhon and I will be out, doing a test.
Arwen V1: I'll chat =)
VardaValar1: Ok, for a topic, I was considering the Elessar stone and it's significance.
VardaValar1: It was left out of the movie.
VardaValar1: Ok, how about one from just LotR? : )
ArPharazonV: 'twas a gift from Galadriel, I recall? To aragorn?
VardaValar1: Aye, it was
ArPharazonV: there are several stories behind the origin of the stone... and there even appear to have been 2
VardaValar1: It was much like the gift a mother would give to the groom to be, as well as the far greater significance. : )
VardaValar1: There were more than one story
ArPharazonV: 2 stones, that is :-)
VardaValar1: Depends on which story you use.
VardaValar1: Ok, moving back to straight LotR...
ArPharazonV: I'm sure there are many topics to choose from relating LotR and the Hobbit...
VardaValar1: Arwen wants to talk about Hobbits. : )
ArPharazonV: ah, interesting
Arwen V1: Yay for Hobbits!
ArPharazonV: anything in particular?
ArPharazonV: or just anything hobbity?
VardaValar1: So what is different between a hobbit and a man and an elf?
VardaValar1: or even dwarf?
ArPharazonV: It is known that Hobbits are more related to men than to Dwarves or Elves...
Arwen V1: besides the hairy feet =)
Arwen V1: they have the.. shape of men, but more the size of dwarves
VardaValar1: hairy feet are important.
ArPharazonV: smaller than dwarves even... not that much shorter, but less stocky
VardaValar1: That and size are major physical differences.
BhonTuath: They are more bound to land and nature
BhonTuath: bit like dwarves to the mountains
ArPharazonV: hairy feet is important, aye... goes well with their leathery soles.... reduces their need for shoes
ArPharazonV: and aye, they are bound to land and nature... but that might also have to do with their 3 breeds
Arwen V1: You could probably tell a lot about the earth you walk on when you dont wear shoes =)
ArPharazonV: as well as move stealthily :-)
Arwen V1: true
ArPharazonV: hobbits... 3 breeds.... one hanging around Dwarves in the
mountains, one among the humans in the plains and fields, one by the
Elves in the woods
ArPharazonV: sharing their interests
ArPharazonV: looking at their later love of the land, I'd guess the second breed has become most dominant
Arwen V1: probably
VardaValar1: Stoors like the water.
Arwen V1: I was just thinking about that =)
ArPharazonV: ah, true
ArPharazonV: which could mean the Brandybucks have more Stoor-ish blood in them
ArPharazonV: Gollum, Smeagol, also seems to have been of the Stoors
VardaValar1: Brandybucks came by it on their own. ; )
ArPharazonV: yet of a people that did not move over the mountains, and was forgotten in more general legends of their people
ArPharazonV: the resemblance strikes me with the Elven seperation
Arwen V1: that makes sense
ArPharazonV: the great journey of the Eldar to the west, while their kin remained behind in the East
ArPharazonV: in this case, the migration again seems to have been concentrated in 3 "hosts" or movements, one for each breed
Arwen V1: there were probably groups from each that were left behind
Arwen V1: that have been forgotten by the main groups in any case
ArPharazonV: that is a good possibility... but other than the riverfolk
where Gollum came from, which was probably made up largely of Stoors,
there isn't any information concerning other breeds remaining behind
ArPharazonV: we hear, for example, nothing about Fallohides living in Mirkwood in the later years of the Third Age
Arwen V1: ahh =)
VardaValar1: Frodo appears to be a Fallohide, partly.
ArPharazonV: aye, the entire Took-family seems to be partial Fallohide...
ArPharazonV: somewhat eager for adventure and not afraid to take up leadership
ArPharazonV: and Frodo was part Took
ArPharazonV: as was Bilbo, for that matter
VardaValar1: Frodo was Bilbo's nephew
ArPharazonV: yet not from the Took-side, I believe?
ArPharazonV: they were related from both sides
VardaValar1: Primula Brandybuck was Frodo's mother
ArPharazonV: who was a cousin of Bilbo, indeed
ArPharazonV: but through that Frodo wasn't a direct nephew
ArPharazonV: since that was through the Baggins-side, I believe?
VardaValar1: Drogo Baggins was his father
ArPharazonV: hmm... indeed
ArPharazonV: pardon, checking out the family trees right here ;-)
Arwen V1: =)
Arwen V1: brb for a second.
ArPharazonV: it actually seems Frodo and Bilbo weren't that closely
related on the Baggins-side after all.. at least not as close as on the
ArPharazonV: looking at the family trees, I have to come to the
conclusion, that Frodo wasn't even Bilbo's actual nephew, as Bilbo
seems to have had neither brother nor sister
ArPharazonV: they were actually one further generation apart, as Frodo's mother was Bilbo's cousin...
ArPharazonV: is the term for it still nephew then?
VardaValar1: nope : )
ArPharazonV: not sure how's that in English
ArPharazonV: so what then was Frodo of Bilbo?
VardaValar1: Sounds like cousins, from your description
ArPharazonV: if Frodo's mother is a cousin of Bilbo, is Frodo then also
a cousin of Bilbo? seems odd, but again, how that is in English I do
Arwen V1: second cousin?
Arwen V1: once removed I think
ArPharazonV: ah, now we get to terminology I have never been able to grasp in English :-)
Arwen V1: its always confused me too =P
ArPharazonV: second cousin, once removed?
Arwen V1: yes
ArPharazonV: does the "removed" have to be with Frodo being of a later generation? or is that the "second"?
VardaValar1: Real life cousins, however removed, refer to each other just as cousins.
ArPharazonV: so the "removed" part does have to do with the generation-difference?
ArPharazonV: and the "second" of the "second cousin"?
Arwen V1: http://www.obliquity.com/family/misc/cousin.html
Arwen V1: there is a table sort of explaining it there
ArPharazonV: oh, that's nice
ArPharazonV: so.. the common ancestor in this case would be the Old Took
ArPharazonV: Bilbo is a grandchild, Frodo is a great-grandchild
Arwen V1: first cousin once removed
ArPharazonV: that makes Frodo first cousin once removed, aye
ArPharazonV: and on the Baggins side?
ArPharazonV: common ancestor: Balbo Baggins
ArPharazonV: Bilbo: greatgrandchild
ArPharazonV: Frodo greatgreatgrandchild
ArPharazonV: that makes him second cousin once removed :-)
Arwen V1: =D
ArPharazonV: nifty little table, once you know how it works
Arwen V1: yeah =)
ArPharazonV: how about Merry and Pippin?
ArPharazonV: just first cousins... how boring :-)
Arwen V1: hehe
Arwen V1: was Frodo related to either Merry or Pippin?
ArPharazonV: let me check!
ArPharazonV: let's see... common ancestor: the old took
ArPharazonV: frodo... 3 generations removed, great-grandchild
ArPharazonV: merry and pippin: 4 generations... greatgreatgrandchild...
ArPharazonV: once again, second cousin once removed
Arwen V1: cool
ArPharazonV: so Merry and Pippin are to Frodo in the Took-side what Frodo is to Bilbo on the Baggins-side
Arwen V1: What about Sam? =)
VardaValar1: Apparently no relation. Seems to have been of the other line of Hobbits.
ArPharazonV: aye, but what do we see..
ArPharazonV: Sam is related to Rosie :-)
ArPharazonV: ....or is he?
Arwen V1: well.. he married her.. =)
ArPharazonV: well, before that, even
ArPharazonV: seems indeed to be the case
Arwen V1: ahh
ArPharazonV: common ancestor: Holman
ArPharazonV: Samwise is.. 4 generations removed
ArPharazonV: so is Rose
Arwen V1: cool =)
ArPharazonV: that makes them third cousins
Arwen V1: not a close relation then, anyways
ArPharazonV: close enough to be noticed ;-)
Arwen V1: =)
ArPharazonV: who else we got?
ArPharazonV: Fatty in there somewhere?
VardaValar1: Fredegar Bolger
ArPharazonV: I don't see Fredegar mentioned anywhere... a shame
Arwen V1: =/
ArPharazonV: do we know of a father?
VardaValar1: Is he in the group invited to the special going-away? If so, he's related to Bilbo.
ArPharazonV: I have him!
ArPharazonV: seems to be of a generation younger than Frodo... so same generation as Merry and Pippin
VardaValar1: Pippin is a bit younger than Merry, so young that it worried everyone.
ArPharazonV: aye, but still same generation, genetically speaking, from the Took-side anyway
VardaValar1: : )
ArPharazonV: once again, common ancestor the Old Took
Arwen V1: cool =)
ArPharazonV: so once again... second cousin, once removed
ArPharazonV: from Frodo
Arwen V1: Old Took must have had a ton of kids
VardaValar1: Aye : )
ArPharazonV: I count 12 :-)
Arwen V1: wow
ArPharazonV: and... how about Fatty vs M&P?
ArPharazonV: third cousins
ArPharazonV: so, same as Sam is to Rose
Arwen V1: cool =)
Arwen V1: I'd have to think that a lot of hobbits are related to other hobbits.. within a certain area
Arwen V1: they dont seem to travel much
ArPharazonV: if they were any closer related, I'd be inclined to call it inbreeding
VardaValar1: The main tribes had begun to mix
VardaValar1: The attitude of the hobbits was a major difference.
Arwen V1: between the tribes>
Arwen V1: ?
VardaValar1: Between hobbits and non-hobbits.
Arwen V1: aha
Arwen V1: hobbits also seem more resistant to evil rings =) or one evil ring anyways
Arwen V1: is it a condition of hobbits in general, or just Frodo/Bilbo?
Arwen V1: do you think? =)
ArPharazonV: Sam also, I'd say
VardaValar1: The Ring most affected people who wanted power. Hobbits were mostly not interested in power.
Arwen V1: ahh
ArPharazonV: aye, mostly...
Arwen V1: maybe why it influenced Gollum more then, he was more interested in power?
ArPharazonV: so would Lotho be influenced by the Ring?
ArPharazonV: a lot?
VardaValar1: The Sackville-Bagginses might have been more affected, aye.
Arwen V1: Also.. didnt, when Frodo got hurt with the mordor blade on
the tower of ..whatsit Amon Sul or something like that by the
ringwraith, didnt Aragorn say that if he wasnt healed he would turn
into a creature like a ringwraith?
VardaValar1: His arm began to look glassy by the time they reached Rivendell.
Arwen V1: are there any other mentions in other books about getting hurt with a mordor blade and people turning into wraiths?
VardaValar1: Gandalf once said he might've looked like a glass filled with clear light.
VardaValar1: morgul blade, means sorcery. I don't remember such a mention. Excellent question.
Arwen V1: I was wondering if the same thing would happen to the other races if they got injured the same way
VardaValar1: Probably, at least it's implied. Aragorn recognized it.
ArPharazonV: thinking about that.. what do we know of the origins of the Barrow-wights?
VardaValar1: The wights were evil spirits out of Angmar that came to the Barrows.
ArPharazonV: evil spirits? not wraiths?
VardaValar1: It said evil spirits.
ArPharazonV: the idea comes to mind that the Witch-King could have "wraithed" them personally, if it's that "easy" :-)
ArPharazonV: if it takes a single stab...
Arwen V1: well, I was thinking about what happened to those to whom the rings of power were given..
VardaValar1: I think morgul blades were tough to come by. One use only also.
ArPharazonV: true, Varda
Arwen V1: the humans became ringwraiths, I dont know what happened to
the dwarves, but the elves seemed to live with it and hide themselves
and the rings from Sauron
ArPharazonV: the dwarves were resistant to the rings' effects
Arwen V1: What would have happened to hobbits if they were given rings of power?
ArPharazonV: it made them more greedy for gold, but nothing more
VardaValar1: The rings were all made for immortal beings, elvish. They were never intended for mortal use.
Arwen V1: ahhh
VardaValar1: Sauron well knew that.
ArPharazonV: also, Sauron had no part in the making of the 3
ArPharazonV: so any "negative" effect he might have given to he rest, wouldn't be present in the 3
ArPharazonV: so if a human would wear an Elven Ring, I'd doubt he'd become a wraith :-)
VardaValar1: Sauron did, however, teach the elves how to make rings, so
he could teach them to include that little program that made they
visible to the Master Ring.
VardaValar1: A human wearing an elven ring would become a wraith, most likely.
ArPharazonV: would he?
VardaValar1: The rings were meant for immortal beings.
VardaValar1: The Nine had that problem, because of the nature of the rings.
ArPharazonV: so you ascribe the wraithing to the immortality-factor of the Rings, and not to Sauron?
VardaValar1: I suspect that to be the case. He used that, knowing it.
ArPharazonV: then how is the blade-wraithing related to the ring-wraithing?
ArPharazonV: did Sauron base the idea off of the Rings?
VardaValar1: I never said it was. : )
ArPharazonV: so if the Elves were carrying the rings of the Nine...
VardaValar1: The Elves would not become wraiths.
ArPharazonV: makes sense
Arwen V1: cool =)
ArPharazonV: also, there seem to be 2 issues related to the morgul blade
ArPharazonV: one was the becoming a wraith... I also remember a shard making its way to the heart
ArPharazonV: are those cases related?
ArPharazonV: had the shard not been there, would Frodo still have become a wraith?
VardaValar1: The shard had to be removed
ArPharazonV: had Frodo become a wraith, what would have happened to the shard?
VardaValar1: probably melted in oxygen? : )
ArPharazonV: seems a little redundant to wraith first and then be killed by a knife-shard in the heart...
ArPharazonV: was the shard something like a fail-safe device? if he resists becoming a wraith, he'll die anyway?
VardaValar1: The shard would have been causing the wraithing is all.
ArPharazonV: then why was it moving to the heart?
ArPharazonV: it was moving to the heart, wasn't it? or am I confusing stories now?
Arwen V1: can you find it in the books?
ArPharazonV: I think I have something
ArPharazonV: when gandalf tells Frodo about Elrond healing him, he says "But it could not be found until last night. Then Elrond removed a splinter. It was deeply buried, and it was working inwards."
ArPharazonV: and half a page later he says
ArPharazonV: "They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife
which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have
become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would
have become a wraith..."
ArPharazonV: then Frodo says: "I was mortally afraid, of course; but if I had known more, I should not have dared even to move."
ArPharazonV: and then Gandalf said that the heart was not touched, and
only the shoulder was pierced, and that was because he resisted to the
VardaValar1: So if it reached his heart, he would become a wraith.
Arwen V1: ahh =)
VardaValar1: Okies, that makes sense.
ArPharazonV: and the resisting of becoming a wraith was then actually resisting the shard moving to the heart
VardaValar1: Also, the resistance at Weathertop.
ArPharazonV: "And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I
have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have
been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days."
ArPharazonV: and aye, the resistance at Weathertop was also a factor... or the splinter would have a lot less to travel :-)
VardaValar1: Seventeen days.
VardaValar1: The movie shortened so many things.
ArPharazonV: I still remember Sam saying "we're 6 days from Rivendell. We'll never make it"...
ArPharazonV: aye, quite shortened ;-)
VardaValar1: I have to go
ArPharazonV: Frodo deteriated a lot faster in the movie too... he was
staring blankly and foaming at the mouth when the reached the trolls
BhonTuath: Namarie Friends , I think we will meet again
ArPharazonV: in the book, he was feeling better and urging Sam to sing a song ;-)
VardaValar1 has left the room.
BhonTuath has left the room.
Arwen V1: Namarie for me too!
Arwen V1: bye and have a great week!
Arwen V1: =)
Arwen V1 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: I'll be saving and sending then