March 26, 2006 Meeting
5pm EST (GMT - 5);
(GMT = 23:00)
Back to News
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharazon-(V),
Menelvagor-(Valar), and Varda-(Valar)
ArPharazonV, Arwen V1, Ecthelion-(V)/suilenroc01, Eonwe Valar,
FladrifV, Gil-galad-(V)/Xseanzee disco, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet,
Glorfindel VG, Farmer Maggot-(V)/thesirg3, Orodreth V, VardaValar1
Gazarok-TV: new Tolkien-only member.
Orodreth-(V) now starting Spring Break
Daylight Savings Time coming to EST April 2
by Cassia-(TV) and Siobhan-(TV)
"Change of Heart, Change
Gaming pages: WoW Lothar Players
(Fladrif-V has been reading this source material for Tolkien and is
taking the chance to see the only surviving page left.)
as the gift of Eru to Mankind. Eonwe-(Valar)
Natural state of Arda?
Decider of mortality?
of Tolkien's literature:
Themes in Tolkien's
works affecting current thoughts
of more themes to consider:
A Higher Power
Evil and Good's natures
gave actual pleasure
Name for a ship
(15:55:19) You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
(15:57:52) ArPharazonV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: you don't think we're an hour early, right?
Menelvagor Valar: it's 12 AM here :P
ArPharazonV: you think that whole daylight savings thing isn't this
week in the US yet?
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya Eonwe
FladrifV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya Flad
Menelvagor Valar: next week if I am not mistaken.
Eonwe Valar: heya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Eonwe.
ArPharazonV: well, then they're later than us!
Orodreth V has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: summertime started for us yesterday.
ArPharazonV: so it's midnight already
FladrifV: yes it is
ArPharazonV: I logged out of WoW an hour ago.. was a bit too early
Eonwe Valar: DST begin for you guys already?
ArPharazonV: I missed an hour of AQ20 for nothing! We still had to kill
Moam and Ossirian! Now they went ahead and did it without me!
FladrifV: ah the gates are open?
ArPharazonV: at least I got my last questpiece for the CC-druid-set
ArPharazonV: oh, yes
ArPharazonV: we now killed every boss in AQ20
suilenroc01 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: and slowly getting started in AQ40
FladrifV: I prefer 20 man instances
Eonwe Valar: We'll give it a couple more minutes, then begin.
ArPharazonV: meh, AQ40's not too bad
FladrifV: mc was so boring
ArPharazonV: fast respawn, but other than that, it's pretty fun
ArPharazonV: aye, it was, people are tired of it.. we only go to MC
once every 2 weeks now
ArPharazonV: BWL is pretty exciting though
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
FladrifV: Ill keep the rumour still in the air then ;-)
ArPharazonV: at Chromaggus and Nefarian, everyone has to do their
best... it's so awsome
Orodreth V: My only news is that I have spring break this week. and now
I must go and get Vingilot XIX from the hanger so I can redistribute
more wealth. Stupid ship-killing bugs. >\
Orodreth V: /me is now away from the chat
Eonwe Valar: Take care Orodreth and enjoy your break :}
ArPharazonV: and I still haven't got my Stormrage Cover...
ArPharazonV: in my absence, the thing has been sharded like 10 times,
every druid has it..
ArPharazonV: except little old me!
ArPharazonV: oh well, another attempt next saturday
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya Varda
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Eonwe Valar: We were just about to begin :}
ArPharazonV: oh, btw, one small mention
ArPharazonV: I found the quote!
ArPharazonV: it's when Manwe gives his judgement to Earendil and
Elwing, just as I thought
Eonwe Valar: Taking roll.
ArPharazonV: I found it 5 minutes after I closed the pc last week
VardaValar1: Of course :-)
ArPharazonV: "Now all those who have
the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal,
unless other doom is granted to them; but in this matter the power of
doom is given to me.
ArPharazonV: This is my decree: to
Earendel and to Elwing and to their sons shal be given leave each to
choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged."
ArPharazonV: and so the commentary says:
ArPharazonV: "It is to be observed
that according to the judgement of Manwe Dior Thingols Heir, son of
Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother."
ArPharazonV: so indeed, even if you're 99% elf and 1% human... you'd
still be mortal
ArPharazonV: it's in part V of HoME
VardaValar1: Dior was mortal? ack
ArPharazonV: in my book, page 326, "Quenta Silmarillion" is the name of
ArPharazonV: paragraph 9 of the "conclusion" section
Eonwe Valar: No contradiction then with the quote I gave last week,
saying the Valar had not the authority to take the Gift of Death from
VardaValar1: Aye, just never caught on to Dior's being mortal
Eonwe Valar: The question then is how long would he have lived had he
not died prematurely :}
Eonwe Valar: But, it's time to begin the meeting :}
VardaValar1: About as long as Elros?
ArPharazonV: just thought I'd mention it... I mentioned it last week,
and you wanted me to find the quote, so here it is ;-)
VardaValar1: Eonwe has the Chair : )
Eonwe Valar: Elenn
Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Aye, thank you Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
FladrifV: sorry to interup for a short message: this meeting time is a
bit late for me so Im going to sleep... goodluck with the meeting
Eonwe Valar: We have a new Tolkien Only member.
Eonwe Valar: Gazarok-(TV)
ArPharazonV: Namarie Flad... I can't stay long either... but at least
for 45 more minutes
Eonwe Valar: Well, living in Australia :} Says he's from New Zealand :}
Eonwe Valar: He seems to be a Wheel
of Time fan as well, as he's posted to that thread on our Forum
Eonwe Valar: Orodreth
has Spring break this week, so lucky him :}
Eonwe Valar: DST has begun in Europe, or in Phar's and Menel's parts at
Eonwe Valar: Any other Member news?
ArPharazonV: what time is DST starting in the States?
Eonwe Valar: One sec, I'll check.
ArPharazonV: since it's a little annoying with the meeting here
Eonwe Valar: Probably not for another month.
ArPharazonV: I remember last year, it only was a week difference...
Eonwe Valar: April 2nd
ArPharazonV: this year?
ArPharazonV: oh, that's not too bad
Eonwe Valar: So yeah, a week from now
ArPharazonV: then next week it'll be back to normal!
Eonwe Valar: OK, on with Web News:
Eonwe Valar: Pardon, one thing for Member News:
Eonwe Valar: During the Sweep, we've dropped 12 full members
and 7 Tolkien Only members for lack of contact.
VardaValar1: Lowest number ever, thanks to AIM : )
Eonwe Valar: Of course they can rejoin, but now they need to retake the
ArPharazonV: Paladin was dropped, right?
Menelvagor Valar: I noticed we lost Draugluin as well..
ArPharazonV: isn't he still around in War3?
VardaValar1: Could lose name to new members, need to rejoin soon
Menelvagor Valar: does that mean he will have to get Maia honor anew if
VardaValar1: If he is, someone needs to tell us
VardaValar1: Not showing on Orodreth's bot
VardaValar1: If he's active playing a Valar character (not outside
name) could be said to be mistakenly dropped
VardaValar1: We need an email/AIM way to reach him, as he answered no
FladrifV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: I'll go see if he's online now by any chance
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
VardaValar1: His email was dead in Dec 2004, barely made it onto the
2005 roster, then nothing
VardaValar1: Aiya Gilraen : )
Star of Phaet: Aiya :-)
Star of Phaet: Sorry for the lateness, we went to see a movie with
Gwai's parents and just got back
ArPharazonV: nope, not online atm
ArPharazonV: ah, Gilraen
ArPharazonV: I wondered who you were...
Eonwe Valar: Web
VardaValar1: Sounds fun : )
Eonwe Valar: Varda, your floor :}
VardaValar1: Thank you
VardaValar1: Tolkien site news:
VardaValar1: New art
VardaValar1: Also, he's made a page of his own art, for some taken by
cam, which is linked to the Cave
VardaValar1: New art by Cassia-(TV)
going with new stories now up
VardaValar1: Two of the latest linked stories in the art are still in the
formatting stage under Stories, but readable
VardaValar1: One of Cassia's and
Siobhan's stories up and ready is
VardaValar1: Change of Heart, Change
VardaValar1: Another new story is "Homecoming"
VardaValar1: by Eonwe-(Valar)
who is chairing this meeting :-)
VardaValar1: It's a one chapter story
VardaValar1: We also have new articles:
VardaValar1: Gazarok-(TV) sent
in one as his Tolkien-only membership article:
VardaValar1: Then, as it was his vacation, he just kept right on
VardaValar1: Also, much work has been done on the Elf page in
formatting, and trying to get closer to completing Author's pages
connected to it.
VardaValar1: Other work too, but I can't think of all of it, scattered
VardaValar1: Also in the process of updating the WoW Lothar players' page attached to
VardaValar1: I'll upload that in a few minutes when free : )
VardaValar1: That's all I can think of at the moment, Eonwe. Floor
returns to you.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks, and thank you for all the work you've done
maintaining Encyclopedia :}
VardaValar1: Thank you : )
Eonwe Valar: Making it easier for us to look up obscure pieces of info
without having to dig through our books :}
VardaValar1: Some of which we don't have
VardaValar1: (books that is)
Eonwe Valar: Is there any other Web News?
Eonwe Valar: Don't forget to check the LotRO RP section for update to the
Eonwe Valar: (section of the Forums)
Eonwe Valar: Gaming:
Eonwe Valar: Anything from the Lothar group?
VardaValar1: Oh, yes
VardaValar1: Gulma is now level 60
VardaValar1: Ulmo's hunter
VardaValar1: That is his third 60
Eonwe Valar: Congrats to Ulmo :}
VardaValar1: Sauron is right behind him, almost to his third 60
thesirg3 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Any of the European Valar Guild guys' guys get
together this week?
Eonwe Valar: minus one guys :}
ArPharazonV: considering there are only 2 still regularly playing, and
I still seem to keep missing Valandil, that's a no
Srekal86 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: but Fladrif told me he might be back soon
ArPharazonV: somewhere in April
Srekal86: /me waves
VardaValar1: Aragorn in Europe is supposed to be a WoW player. Ever see
ArPharazonV: not if he's under any name I would recognize as such...
and of course there's no way of knowing he's even on our server
ArPharazonV: got an AIM name? perhaps I can contact him outside some
VardaValar1: Aragorn Valar
ArPharazonV: with or without the space?
ArPharazonV: since there is an AragornValar in my list
Srekal86: In AIM spaces make no difference.
VardaValar1: It works either way
Eonwe Valar: We didn't really have any instances going on Friday, but
we did have several groupings, and late at night even had 8 people on :}
Eonwe Valar: Not usually that many on past midnight, so it was cool :}
ArPharazonV: oh, btw, our guild had a Guild Fair this saturday after we
slew Nefarian... but I couldn't be there :-(
VardaValar1: What do they do at a guild fair?
ArPharazonV: get as many people together in one place and basically
have a party... let's see... it was a beauty contest with costumes,
then everyone went for a big match in the Gurubashi Arena, games were
played, etc etc
ArPharazonV: from what I hear, it was fun ;-)
Eonwe Valar: cool ;}
Eonwe Valar: LotRO:
There's some new desktop calendars on their website :}
Eonwe Valar: go get em :}
VardaValar1: We do have a bank
giveaway on Lothar on Fridays; with a chance to get our big guys
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
Eonwe Valar: OK, then on to Tolkien :}
VardaValar1: Fladrif had a bit
Eonwe Valar: Ah ok.
VardaValar1: I am supposed to pass on
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead.
VardaValar1: "Heimskringla" by Snorri (or Snory if
you're Swedish, he says, but then said that might just be the
VardaValar1: He's been reading it, one of the source materials for
VardaValar1: and got the chance to go
VardaValar1: to Stockholm
VardaValar1: to view the only existing page left of it
VardaValar1: after the fire in the library that destroyed the rest of it
VardaValar1: in Copenhagen/Kopenhagen
VardaValar1: Sometime around 1645 or 1654
VardaValar1: He's planning on going, so if he's not around a while,
that's where he went. : )
VardaValar1: End of Fladrif's news.
Eonwe Valar: Cool :}
Eonwe Valar: Take care and hf to Fladrif :}
VardaValar1: Aye : )
Eonwe Valar: Today we have two topics for Tolkien :}
Eonwe Valar: One is related to last week's discussion, so I'd like to
begin with that one.
Eonwe Valar: Death is the Gift of Eru to Mankind.
thesirg3 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: The Elves are immortal inasmuch as they do not die of
Eonwe Valar: The Valar are also immortal, and their land promotes a
longevity of the physical form.
Eonwe Valar: One of the quotes I use frequently from the Sil goes as
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: "There Iluvatar
permitted the Valar to maintain upon the Earth an abiding place, a
memorial of that which might have been if Morgoth had not cast his
shadow on the world."
Eonwe Valar: This seems to lead to the question: Is immortality the natural state of Arda?
VardaValar1: Not for plants, animals, or Men
Eonwe Valar: Knowledge and obedience to the Valar (and through them
Eru) seems to lead to a "pure" longevity, as opposed to the unnatural
life of the Nazgul or of those who have born the Rings.
Eonwe Valar: Men would be the exception, aye, Varda.
VardaValar1: and plants and animals?
Eonwe Valar: Why not plants or animals?
VardaValar1: They do die
Eonwe Valar: Do they die in Aman?
VardaValar1: Elves die when Arda does, it seems
VardaValar1: That would also wipe out plants and animals in Aman
Eonwe Valar: Do they die because it is in their nature or because of
the corruption Arda has suffered at the hands of Morgoth?
VardaValar1: Seems to be a natural cycle. I haven't seen anything on it
Eonwe Valar: life until the end of Arda is for all intents and purposes
Eonwe Valar: The Dwarves also die, but Eru did not have a hand in their
making. Did Aulë design them to die, or is that possibly something
he had not considered as a result of what he used to fashion them?
VardaValar1: Immortality would be never ceasing, so we could say Fear
VardaValar1: The Valar are Fear forms
VardaValar1: Maybe because that's what he saw in nature, which his wife
formed more or less?
VardaValar1: The Dwarves weren't originally designed as Fea, but as
ArPharazonV: could it then be said that Eru "installed" Fear into them?
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Eru gave them life, and as such, the Fëa or soul.
ArPharazonV: and if it's the Fea that decides mortality
(whether it can abide in the body for a longer time or leaves the world
after death) would it not be Eru who gave the Dwarves their mortality
VardaValar1: Since the original design was physical, with an imperfect
knowledge of the Elves and Men to come, and only knowledge of nature,
they may have been designed with mortality.
VardaValar1: The Fear would return to Aule
Eonwe Valar: Aulë seemed to love the Dwarves dearly, though not as
dearly as Eru. Would he have knowingly designed something that would
have not afterlife to have an end to physical life?
VardaValar1: Then they would be trained, I assume, for their next
purpose, which is stated to be the building of the new Arda.
Eonwe Valar: So then Eru gave to Aulë's creation the same gift he
gave to Men?
VardaValar1: Not knowingly
Eonwe Valar: (directed to Phar)
ArPharazonV: yes, something like that... though perhaps "adapted" to
stay around after death and aid Aule in his works
ArPharazonV: anyway, I've enjoyed reading all this, I'm sorry I could
not make more contributions
ArPharazonV: but it's pretty late here, and I have to go to bed
ArPharazonV: so I'll be saving and sending
VardaValar1: Thanks for joining in Phar : )
Eonwe Valar: Any other thoughts on this subject?
ArPharazonV: ..not at the moment, actually, a bit distracted perhaps,
or just not well known enough anymore on this subject
VardaValar1: Interesting subject, as Dwarf mortality is rarely
ArPharazonV: very true
ArPharazonV: but I can't stay ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Go to bed :}
VardaValar1: Nighty night : )
Eonwe Valar: OK, if there's no more thoughts on the subject, we'll move
now to Menel's topic.
Eonwe Valar: Go for it Menel.
Menelvagor Valar: okies :-)
Menelvagor Valar: first of all, I would like to know what effects Tolkien's literature has had
(or still has) on modern fantasy.
ArPharazonV: it is sent
Eonwe Valar: Well, even to this day everything involved in Role-playing
says that if it's tough, it has to
have a group :}
Menelvagor Valar: true.
Menelvagor Valar: but I mean more fundamentally..
VardaValar1: Tolkien's world is so engrained that it seems the normal
way to set up fantasy and games.
Eonwe Valar: There are few stories I've seen recently that come down to
VardaValar1: One man stories used to the normal type
Eonwe Valar: Dragonball Z being the only one that comes immediately to
Menelvagor Valar: well, even that they work in groups at certain points.
Menelvagor Valar: Cell Saga for one.
Menelvagor Valar: but that is a major effect, aye.
Menelvagor Valar: any examples from pre-Tolkien?
Glorfindel VG has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Beowulf was essentially a one-man story.
VardaValar1: Aiya Glorfindel
Glorfindel VG: Aiya Varda
Glorfindel VG: how goes it
Eonwe Valar: Only at the end did he have anything that could be
considered help if memory serves.
Menelvagor Valar: but Beowulf was a myth.
Menelvagor Valar: not really fantasy.
Menelvagor Valar: could it be that with Tolkien myth transcended into
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien was writing a myth for England.
Menelvagor Valar: true.
Menelvagor Valar: but with that, probably laid the basics for fantasy.
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien had read, knew, and translated Beowulf.
VardaValar1: Fantasy tends to be based on myth
VardaValar1: Tolkien had taught Beowulf to classes nearly every year
Eonwe Valar: (Still need to remember to go out and order a copy of Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics
Menelvagor Valar: here's your reminder then :-)
Eonwe Valar: I've seen the group format in anime (Japanese Animation
for the uninitiated :}) with European themes too, like Record of Lodoss
Menelvagor Valar: but yes, Tolkien did intend LotR to be a myth for
Britain, but he ended up writing the very first fantasy book, right?
Eonwe Valar: You've got all your standard RPG group there: Thief,
Priest, Elf, Mage, Warrior, Dwarf.
VardaValar1: Nope, fantasy has been around since the first tall tale
about a fish : )
Glorfindel VG: anyone here ever play final fantasy?
Glorfindel VG: they often use termanology
Glorfindel VG: created by tolkien
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien I recall was once called the Father of Modern
ArPharazonV: well, goodnight all
VardaValar1: WoW has a ton of it too. Tolkien invented "mithril"
Eonwe Valar: Don't remember where though
VardaValar1: Nighty night
Eonwe Valar: BLizzard uses it too.
Glorfindel VG: gnight
Eonwe Valar: Balrogs and Mithril.
Glorfindel VG: ive heard mithril used in many occasions
ArPharazonV: Morrowind and Rage of Mages use it too... Mithril
Glorfindel VG: which tolkien created
Menelvagor Valar: Final Fantasy is what made me play Fantasy games, it
is still my favorite (on a sidenote, waiting for PS3 for FF XII) :-D
ArPharazonV: Mithril is everywhere
VardaValar1: Diablo Balrogs were voted the scariest monsters on games :
Glorfindel VG: mene
Eonwe Valar: Not just in WoW, but back at least as far as Warcraft 2.
Glorfindel VG: ive played all the final fantasy games up to 7,
Glorfindel VG: but havnt had a chance to play the later ones
Glorfindel VG: am i missing alot?
Menelvagor Valar: I have them all, save XI.
ArPharazonV has left the room.
Glorfindel VG: but yeah i know what you mean
Glorfindel VG: final fantasy one was an inspiration
Menelvagor Valar: graphics become a lot better in the later ones.
Glorfindel VG: ff3 aka 6 also
VardaValar1: Diablo 1 Balrogs, ones I'm referring to as being the
Glorfindel VG: they did a remake of the ff1 graphics
Glorfindel VG: i had a chance to dl and play it
Eonwe Valar: So there are/were actually Tolkien fans in the employ of
Blizzard, not just guys who thought to capitalize on the movies with
some jokes and references.
Glorfindel VG: resembled ff4 graphics
VardaValar1: (Eowyn says she solved the Balrog wing problem. Only girl
balrogs have wings, aka Dark Crystal. ;-) )
Menelvagor Valar: but before we get too side tracked on Final Fantasy,
what else is there, aside from gaming?
Glorfindel VG: i think harry potter
Glorfindel VG: writer jk rowling
Glorfindel VG: has a bit of tolkien inspiration
Menelvagor Valar: in what way?
Eonwe Valar: I mentioned the RPG group standard in anime.
Menelvagor Valar: so noted, Eonwe :-)
VardaValar1: Any fantasy writer out
there now has read Tolkien and can't help but be influenced.
Glorfindel VG: aye
Menelvagor Valar: I will have to scour the transcript later to get all
the info out :-)
VardaValar1: It's tough to do, Menel. : )
Menelvagor Valar: because of the massiveness of Tolkien's works, right?
VardaValar1: Tolkien's works set the
bar very high for all future fantasy
Menelvagor Valar: well, it's a project for school which stands for
about 20 hours, so I can get quite a bit from there :-P
VardaValar1: Junk really looked like junk after it
Eonwe Valar: I would also like to note that being in a group, and being
part of a group, are separate things, as I will define because those
sentences seem synonymous.
VardaValar1: Now writers need to be very careful to make a world that
hangs together and has detail, as readers want it
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
VardaValar1: Fellowship and just walking alongside are very different.
Menelvagor Valar: so, now we have gaming
(console, PC and tabletop), storyline, characters, inhabitants, group,
Eonwe Valar: When you are "part" of a group, the entire group serves a
purpose as a group and as individuals. When your entire purpose is to
say "Go Goku! You can do it!" You're just "in" a group :}
Menelvagor Valar: anything I missed so far?
VardaValar1: Detail, research
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
VardaValar1: Story holding together
Menelvagor Valar: humor vs action?
VardaValar1: Tolkien used a little humor, not a lot. In the books,
Legolas used it, and the elves showed it most, even though they were
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
VardaValar1: Tolkien brought the level of seriousness up
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien revived the
whole "Elves are cool" idea, as I recall, btw.
Menelvagor Valar: although he did find a good balance between action, conversation
and some humor.
VardaValar1: True. Elves were becoming only the later folklore style of
little mischieveous ugly things, or airy little winged pretties.
Menelvagor Valar: like which can be seen in SW: The Return of the Sith.
Eonwe Valar: Most before him thought of Elves as those tiny spritelike
creatures. Tolkien gave them back their 6.5-7 feet in height :}
VardaValar1: Tolkien had a balance that was much more like real life, a
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Eonwe Valar: And of course, now, everyone wants to be an Elf.
Menelvagor Valar: hehe :-)
Menelvagor Valar: not me, I am quite happy being a constellation.
Eonwe Valar: And those who can't be a Tolkien High ELf, want to be a
uber Dark Elf named Drzzzttt.
Eonwe Valar: :}
Menelvagor Valar: although it is hard to play a constellation in DnD :-P
Menelvagor Valar: so for RPG I settle back into my former
VardaValar1: Might play it a bit like Earendil?
VardaValar1: He became a dragon-slayer after achieving stardom
Eonwe Valar: lovely play on words. famous or a literal star :}
VardaValar1: Aye, Tolkien brought back Elves as being "cool"
VardaValar1: Thanks : )
VardaValar1: Another thing Tolkien did was to bring back a love of words
VardaValar1: Their use, the making of
new languages as well
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Menelvagor Valar: quite.
Menelvagor Valar: as can be observed in many works of fantasy nowadays.
VardaValar1: Fan fic based on Tolkien shows a much "higher' style of
writing than others for instance, a definite influence
Menelvagor Valar: games too.
Menelvagor Valar: like Orcish since WC1.
Eonwe Valar: Many writers will try to add a bit of their own "unique"
Eonwe Valar: "Dabu" is the best word in the Orcish Language :}
VardaValar1: Science fiction writers tried to do a little showing of
alien languages, but nothing like Tolkien's accomplishment
Eonwe Valar: followed by "Cleetok" :}
Menelvagor Valar: Also, Dungeon Siege
2 has many phrases from Sindarin, like Mellonamin and Suilinad
Menelvagor Valar: Zog-Zog!
VardaValar1: Although Star Trek did come up with the Klingon Dictionary
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
Menelvagor Valar: in other words, a whole lot of influence :-)
Menelvagor Valar: might keep on for the entire night with this, I think
VardaValar1: Hey, it's us
Menelvagor Valar: of course.
Menelvagor Valar: but I've got something else, which is just as
Menelvagor Valar: if you have any other ideas, if you could, please
post them on the forum, or mail em to me :-)
VardaValar1: Characters from Tolkien
can be spotted in WoW too, like Mythrandir
VardaValar1: I love the use of Myth in his name : )
VardaValar1: He's in Darnassus
VardaValar1: with the Elves of course
Eonwe Valar: If only he realized the fittingness of that choice :}
Menelvagor Valar: hehe :-)
Menelvagor Valar: anyways...
VardaValar1: Probably did
Menelvagor Valar: next subject may be even larger.
Menelvagor Valar: How do the themes in Tolkien's works
correlate to modern day life?
VardaValar1: As all themes do
VardaValar1: They come out of life and relate to it.
Menelvagor Valar: such as?
VardaValar1: Name a theme and we'll dive into it There are many
VardaValar1: Fantasy makes bitter
pills easier to swallow
Eonwe Valar: I would say most of the themes I can think of relate to
life period, be it modern, premodern, or postmodern.
VardaValar1: Removes them just enough to allow thought without the blur
Menelvagor Valar: let's start with hope.
VardaValar1: More or less the definition of theme
VardaValar1: Estel means hope : )
Menelvagor Valar: haha :-)
VardaValar1: Aragorn was the hope for many
Menelvagor Valar: going downstairs for a quick drink, brb.
VardaValar1: So a slow drink would be hot? : )
VardaValar1: Sip it
VardaValar1: Sorry, word playing again
Eonwe Valar: Frodo was also the hope of many.
VardaValar1: Frodo was almost alone, and pretty much the sole real hope
Eonwe Valar: I remember the words "unlooked-for"
should come in there somewhere, but don't remember the exact phrase.
Eonwe Valar: or something like that.
VardaValar1: The "friend unlooked for" as in Faramir in Ithilien
VardaValar1: Ignoring movie here, that made him a villain instead of a
friend unlooked for.
Eonwe Valar: aye
Menelvagor Valar: back :-)
Eonwe Valar: There are alot of examples of hope here:
VardaValar1: Since he was robbed of being in the Fellowship as he
should have been, by Denethor, he played his part there, helping the
Ringbearer after the Fellowship broke up.
Eonwe Valar: Hope that all will go
well, hope that you will succeed, that your friends will succeed...
VardaValar1: They didn't know what the others were doing, had to hope
all would work out.
VardaValar1: Hope is a type of belief in someone or something else.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Menelvagor Valar: and how can this be seen in real life?
VardaValar1: Hope that the Valar would help, and others along the way
Eonwe Valar: You hoped we would be able to help you
with this, right?
Menelvagor Valar: no.
VardaValar1: Same thing. Any project,
you have to depend on others, hope they will do their part.
Menelvagor Valar: I knew you could.
Menelvagor Valar: not the same :-D
Eonwe Valar: You believed we could
VardaValar1: Thanks : ) You had belief in us
Eonwe Valar: You hoped we would be here to help :}
VardaValar1: So belief is actually a
stronger word than hope, quite a bit
Menelvagor Valar: I guess in a way, yes.
Eonwe Valar: There's the hope that the guy driving in the car behind or
in front of you won't do something stupid.
Menelvagor Valar: than faith
would fit in there as well?
VardaValar1: Belief and faith are very close words
Glorfindel VG has left the room.
VardaValar1: You had faith in us, that we could help
Menelvagor Valar: so, like in LotR, hope can be a subconscious process?
VardaValar1: You believed we could help
VardaValar1: Hope is both conscious
Menelvagor Valar: good :-)
VardaValar1: We can actively hope that we live through Houston traffic
to reach our destination.
Eonwe Valar: But hope, as inspiriation that you can make a change for
the better, is in the guy/gal who runs for political office to fix
something terribly wrong in their society.
Menelvagor Valar: hope we vote for the right guy in elections :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, that too.
VardaValar1: Belief is more of a certainty. Hope is not.
Eonwe Valar: Hope is shown
through the guy on the street who, after seeing someone throw down a
piece of garbage, picks it up and puts it in the trash.
VardaValar1: That guy shows hope, aye : )
Eonwe Valar: Or who stops to help you fix your flat.
Eonwe Valar: (flat tire)
Eonwe Valar: These kind of things can give us hope that we're not all a
bunch of jerks.
Menelvagor Valar: was thinking about a condo, but that works as well :P
VardaValar1: They are the type that allows humanity as a group to
Menelvagor Valar: hope for mankind as a whole then?
VardaValar1: With enough of them, humanity continues. With too much
selfishness, it can't.
Menelvagor Valar: of which the best example, I think, is Boromir at Amon Hen.
Eonwe Valar: Frodo certainly was the
hope of mankind in LotR. If Sauron would've got the ring, it
wouldn't have been pretty for Man or Hobbitkind.
VardaValar1: He did both : )
Eonwe Valar: Boromir was an example
VardaValar1: The Ring for Boromir. Self-sacrifice for redemption.
Eonwe Valar: The willingness to turn away from what you're done wrong,
acknowledge it as such, and do things better or right the next time.
VardaValar1: It did make me wonder what temptations the others were
given by the Ring. Sam would make the world a giant garden, it said.
Eonwe Valar: *you're = you've
VardaValar1: Learn from mistakes, aye.
Eonwe Valar: Aragorn's would've been his kingdom likely. The Ring
could've never given him Arwen.
VardaValar1: It could lie.
VardaValar1: If he got the Kingdom, Arwen was supposed to be his, so
that still works.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, it could, but he knew better in that respect, like
Sam knew better.
VardaValar1: But Boromir did not.
Eonwe Valar: Boromir wanted to be king of Gondor.
Menelvagor Valar: which basically gets to another theme... deceit.
VardaValar1: Sauron and Saruman used
deceit, since they knew the actuality was self-serving, not
something others would want.
Eonwe Valar: Perhaps Boromir had no balancing aspiration, so to speak,
but that may be a topic for another day.
VardaValar1: The Neverending Topics.
VardaValar1: Another thing Tolkien gave us.
Eonwe Valar: Deceit and manipulation
in Tolkien is a tool of those who are Evil.
VardaValar1: The world he made was so huge, it allowed endless
Eonwe Valar: in Wheel of Time,
they are a matter of course.
Menelvagor Valar: Aes Sedai and Daes Daemar.
Menelvagor Valar: but Wheel of Time is heavily inspired by LotR.
VardaValar1: If you guys read Andre
Norton's science fiction and fantasy, she has a similar view of
the importance of honesty and loyalty.
VardaValar1: Some current fiction admits out front that it's swiping
directly from Tolkien
VardaValar1: I prefer influence, as on our ways of looking at things
Menelvagor Valar: so, if we combine the theme of deceit and honesty?
VardaValar1: Flip sides of a coin.
Eonwe Valar: I notice more in Wheel of Time that contradicts LotR than
is inspired by it.
VardaValar1: That is an influence too.
VardaValar1: Arguing with the beliefs.
Eonwe Valar: And one day, I will write a paper comparing and
contrasting the two.
VardaValar1: I will read it. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: if that day arrives, Eonwe, you have my assistance.
VardaValar1: You have his keyboard.
Eonwe Valar: Good, I'll need someone to read it and find all the
references I make, because 10 books is too much to pick out every
reference for a bibliography :}
Menelvagor Valar: got them all here.
VardaValar1: So many phrases
are noticeably Tolkienesque, such as that one.
Menelvagor Valar: which one, Varda, mine?
Menelvagor Valar: "when that day arrives..."?
VardaValar1: "You have my assistance."
Eonwe Valar: The lucky part though, is that most of the references I
will make (I've already been formulating the paper in my head for a
while now) are so ingrained that you can find direct examples in every
VardaValar1: That sentence is a basic Tolkien idea.
Menelvagor Valar: okay, how about we get a bit more indepth on
something we already brushed, comraderie?
Eonwe Valar: So, I could make a sweeping generalization saying (Wheel
of Time Series) without making direct page-pointers, and could still
get the point across fairly :}
VardaValar1: Comraderie develops in
LotR, becomes ever-stronger, and lasts beyond death.
Menelvagor Valar: I will watch towards the future with hope and
anticipation, Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: Cameraderie is definitely evident. Legolas and Gimli, the five Conspirators,
Aragorn and Eomer...
VardaValar1: Burying Merry and Pippin
in the tomb with the kings of Gondor.
Menelvagor Valar: there is another Tolkienesque phrase O:-)
VardaValar1: Go Menel : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Legolas stays in
Middle-earth despite the sea-longing, which is the "desire of his
heart", to stay with his friend, Aragorn.
Menelvagor Valar: Faramir and the
Rangers of Ithilien as well..
Menelvagor Valar: also, Legolas with
Menelvagor Valar: two character so different that conflict seemed
VardaValar1: They did have conflict.
Menelvagor Valar: and such can be seen in inter-cultural and inter-racial
communication as well.
VardaValar1: They found points to respect over time, seeing past what
they expected to see.
VardaValar1: It shows how to go past racism and other cultural divides.
Get to know the person.
Menelvagor Valar: so, in essence, we could say that prejudices can be
overcome by simply allowing oneself to see byond those.
VardaValar1: I like being online because it helps cut past a lot of
what people's eyes and ears would use to divide them.
VardaValar1: Dwarves and elves look and sound very different, had
different histories being reminded by those two things.
Menelvagor Valar: indeed.
Menelvagor Valar: and that is the same way with christianity, juism and
VardaValar1: Then they both saw the other was brave, would save the
other's lives, had the same goal of saving Middle-earth, both respected
the oldest and greatest of the elves
VardaValar1: They had to stop fighting each other.
VardaValar1: Bringing up past wrongs told of by others, in the far past.
Menelvagor Valar: so having some points of equal reference is quite
important for the process to take place?
VardaValar1: But be careful, because those points can also be division
VardaValar1: Both sides could point at Thingol, with opposite results.
VardaValar1: At one time, it seems Thranduil and Thingol were the same
person in the story line. :-) Things changed.
VardaValar1: Other comraderie was shown strongly by the Hobbits
VardaValar1: Bravery seems to help it
VardaValar1: Fredegar Bolger, staying
behind and facing the Black Riders in Frodo's clothes.
Menelvagor Valar: and that brings us to yet another theme.
Menelvagor Valar: valour.
VardaValar1: That was valour/valor indeed.
VardaValar1: Sam was solid
VardaValar1: "You have a stout heart."
Menelvagor Valar: I think comradery and valor are things that coincide.
VardaValar1: It takes bravery to take
a chance on another person.
Menelvagor Valar: good point.
Menelvagor Valar: and with
friendship, people stand up for each other more than they would
have done otherwise.
Menelvagor Valar: with a few exceptions, who would do so regardless.
VardaValar1: When becoming friends,
they found something to stand up for.
Menelvagor Valar: how about love?
Menelvagor Valar: in modern day terms, LotR is a bit under-developed in
VardaValar1: Love needs defined, which you mean. Pure love, non-physical, is a staple in
Tolkien, mentioned outright.
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Eonwe Valar: I disagree. I think it does fine.
VardaValar1: Physical love as shown in modern books is not shown so
obviously, but it's there. Faramir
Menelvagor Valar: well, in modern day term, if you mention love to the
average day person, the first thing that would come to mind is either
physical or romantical.
Menelvagor Valar: indeed, Varda.
VardaValar1: And that's why the divorce rate is up
Menelvagor Valar: but Tolkien specialized more in non-physical.
Eonwe Valar: Rosie and Sam, Beren and
Luthien mentioned to deepen the love story of Arwen and Aragorn...
VardaValar1: Frodo admires Goldberry
VardaValar1: Gimli is infatuated with Galadriel
Menelvagor Valar: Frodo's love for
the Shire, Aragorn's love for his people and all of Middle-Earth,
Gandalf's "love" for pipe-weed, etc.
Eonwe Valar: Gimli and Galadriel is an example of courtly love.
Eonwe Valar: Don't know if I'd call it "infatuation."
Menelvagor Valar: I personally doubt that Gimli's love for Galadriel is
VardaValar1: Elladan and Elrohir kill orcs and join the rangers for
love of their mother, whom the orcs took from them
Menelvagor Valar: it's more of a spiritual love if I can call it that.
VardaValar1: Got a reaction : )
Eonwe Valar: It's a sort of reverence.
VardaValar1: Aye, Gimli found something wonderful, almost a goddess
Eonwe Valar: Like a knight revers his queen.
VardaValar1: She was perfect to him
Menelvagor Valar: so, Tolkien deals more with the meta-physical, more
down to earth, our roots, our just-beyond-instincts, so to speak.
VardaValar1: That sentence threw me.
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien doesn't feel the need to have his characters
making out every other page.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe. : )
Eonwe Valar: I happen to agree with him :}
VardaValar1: Same. : )
VardaValar1: Welcome to the Tolkien fan club
Menelvagor Valar: absolutely.
Menelvagor Valar: to both of you :-)
Eonwe Valar: The action, so to speak, stays off the pages.
Menelvagor Valar: it's a private thing.
Eonwe Valar: Aye
VardaValar1: That says a huge amount, that it is private, extremely
Menelvagor Valar: although Tolkien
also shows that one can speak his affection for his other openly, and
in fact should do so.
Menelvagor Valar: like Sam and Rosie.
Eonwe Valar: I don't think the lack of that makes his story in any way
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: It's not a lack in the story, aye. It's told with care and
beauty, not bludgeoned.
Menelvagor Valar: indeed.
Menelvagor Valar: it only enhances the value, not diminish it.
Menelvagor Valar: it makes the love more fragile, more beautiful.
VardaValar1: Maybe not fragile, but more beautiful, by showing that
it's between them
Menelvagor Valar: and at the same time, it strengthens the concept of
VardaValar1: Also, it was not something the Hobbits saw.
Menelvagor Valar: how so?
VardaValar1: A lot of Aragorn's story is left out, because the Hobbits
didn't see it
VardaValar1: The Hobbit point of view helps keep the story on track and
with a touch of innocence
Menelvagor Valar: true
Menelvagor Valar: but most of that story is told in the appendix, and
still some is left out.
VardaValar1: The time we don't have hobbits is Helm's Deep, a short bit
in the books
VardaValar1: The Appendix is more notes than story
Menelvagor Valar: also true.
Menelvagor Valar: which brings up an interesting point... perceptive.
VardaValar1: The Three Hunters are looking for the hobbits, so it's
relevant to them
Menelvagor Valar: yeah. hard to put into words...
Eonwe Valar: A question relating to perspective: Varda brought up the
book is written from the perspective of the Hobbits.
VardaValar1: Kind of
Eonwe Valar: Helm's Deep had no Hobbits, and yet we get that instead of
a more detailed chapter on the Seige of Isengard.
Menelvagor Valar: in real life, perspective
alters the way we see things, taken from personal experiences,
VardaValar1: The hobbits did have some influence on Helm's Deep. The
Huorns and Ents with them finish the battle in Man's favor.
VardaValar1: Sent, in a way, by the Hobbits.
Eonwe Valar: true.
Menelvagor Valar: aye, Merry and
Pippin help in altering Fangorn's perspective.
VardaValar1: I say, kind of, or in a way, from Hobbit view, because it
is still a much higher level than Hobbit view, shown more clearly in
the book, the Hobbit.
VardaValar1: Small stones that start the avalanche of precariously
balanced boulders ready to roll.
Menelvagor Valar: Fangorn already knows something must be done, in an
Entish kind of way, and Merry and Pippin kind of give Fangorn the small
nudge that is required to make him see that immediate action is
Eonwe Valar: true as well
Menelvagor Valar: Quickbeam might have been another nudge at that too.
VardaValar1: He was one of the boulders ready to roll. : )
VardaValar1: One boulder does not an avalanche make.
Menelvagor Valar: Also, Gimli meeting Galadriel changed Gimli's perspective of Elves that
was a big incentive for his friendship to Legolas.
Menelvagor Valar: quite so, varda.
VardaValar1: Good point.
Menelvagor Valar: in a smaller way, Frodo's
perspective of Sam was changed when Sam rushed after Frodo into
Eonwe Valar: The takeover of the
Shire by Saruman changed the perspective of the Hobbits.
Menelvagor Valar: it made Frodo more appreciative of Sam's presence,
and his loyalty to Frodo.
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
VardaValar1: Perspectives were chosen
for the Fellowship by picking younger ones who could adapt
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Menelvagor Valar: so in that case, Elrond's
perspective was altered in favor of the Hobbits, by the Hobbits.
VardaValar1: Also, Legolas's people
were not dependent on a Ring.
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure Bilbo helped
Menelvagor Valar: most likely.
VardaValar1: Loyal friends with stealth ability were more valuable to
Frodo than the commander of an open army.
Menelvagor Valar: as Varda sayd, it is not one boulder that makes an
avalanche roll :-)
VardaValar1: Aye, Bilbo had been in Rivendell a long time. Unlikely to
be an accident.
Menelvagor Valar: said*
Menelvagor Valar: any other themes?
VardaValar1: Hobbits all had it
Menelvagor Valar: in what way?
VardaValar1: Aragorn was a ranger, and he had it
VardaValar1: Legolas was a guerilla fighter
VardaValar1: Gimli, I'm not sure
Menelvagor Valar: and that can be seen in real life in knowing how to
mingle with the masses?
VardaValar1: Lost me
Menelvagor Valar: to adapt to one's surrounding in order to survive?
is another theme : )
Menelvagor Valar: hehe.
VardaValar1: Related to youth for the Hobbits, Elf, Dwarf, even Boromir
Menelvagor Valar: but how can stealth be related to modern day society?
Eonwe Valar: Use cash, not credit :}
VardaValar1: Better to slip up on something big and scary than make an
VardaValar1: Go Eonwe! : )
Menelvagor Valar: in modern day society, stealth is mostly used in war,
deceit and other forms of less than perfect behavior.
VardaValar1: The underground cash society, cannot be tracked ; )
Menelvagor Valar: can stealth also be
in words, rather than action?
VardaValar1: So much power is held
over people by tracking them
VardaValar1: Certainly. Called "diplomacy"
Eonwe Valar: A care in words chosen.
Eonwe Valar: Doesn't mean play Daes Daemar, but be careful what you say.
VardaValar1: When Sauron couldn't
track the Fellowship, they were able to do the most.
Menelvagor Valar: haha, right, Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: (Daes Daemar = Game of Houses = Most modern day
Menelvagor Valar: (deceit, plotting, subterfuge, assassination, you
name it, it's there)
Eonwe Valar: The art of saying something while meaning another.
VardaValar1: That's closer to deceit than stealth.
Eonwe Valar: Saying things in such a
way as to not be able to be pinned on what you actually said.
VardaValar1: Diplomacy can also be a way of saying something [a truth] so that it does
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: One says the same basic meaning, but without hitting the
other person with blunt words.
Eonwe Valar: I don't really think Stealth is a theme for LotR though.
VardaValar1: This can be due to caring about the other person
VardaValar1: No, it's not. : )
VardaValar1: but it's present
VardaValar1: The rangers in Ithilien used it
VardaValar1: Slipped through the woods, hidden base
VardaValar1: wore camoflage colors
VardaValar1: So did wood elves in Mirkwood
VardaValar1: They were against a stronger enemy
Menelvagor Valar: might be called a sub-semi-sub-sub theme or something.
VardaValar1: Gollum used stealth a lot
Menelvagor Valar: we know LotR is riddled with those :-)
VardaValar1: : )
VardaValar1: A weaker force cannot go boldly up and hit a stronger one
for the win
Menelvagor Valar: cunning.
VardaValar1: Stealth : )
Menelvagor Valar: and common sense.
Eonwe Valar: Tell that to my lvl 10 heroes in BFME :}
Menelvagor Valar: unfortunately, exactly the tactics terrorists use
VardaValar1: Effectively too
VardaValar1: They cannot go head to head with all those governments
Menelvagor Valar: tell that to my lvl 10 evil heroes, Eonwe :-)
Menelvagor Valar: or the strength of the US army.
VardaValar1: "evil" hero. hmmm
Menelvagor Valar: or allied nations for that matter.
Eonwe Valar: Aye.
VardaValar1: Terrorists don't just attack the US or its armies
Menelvagor Valar: they hurt where it hurts most.
Menelvagor Valar: knock out a people's will to fight, and you knock out
Menelvagor Valar: doesn't always work that way though.
VardaValar1: They've been using terrorism a long time before they
pulled the stunt with airplanes against the US
Menelvagor Valar: it can be counter-effective.
Eonwe Valar: Assuming by doing that you don't just tick them off real
bad and make them want to come after you all the more.
Menelvagor Valar: it's a risky business.
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth tried to turn Fëanor to his side, and he
ended up going too far. Fëanor took a step beyond Morgoth :}
VardaValar1: Pearl Harbor, planes into our buildings, those got
attention when those people would otherwise have been ignored.
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Menelvagor Valar: serious miscalculation from the Japanese.
VardaValar1: Was that so bright of the terrorists to hit those
international buildings, the Towers? Or to hit the Pentagon, or to try
to hit the buildings with Congress still in it?
VardaValar1: But we are wandering off topic : )
Menelvagor Valar: we are, but it is late and I am kind of out of themes ..
Eonwe Valar: Death
Eonwe Valar: Afterlife.
VardaValar1: The elves were going to have to sacrifice most of what
they had to "win" over Sauron
Eonwe Valar: A Higher Power.
VardaValar1: Angelic powers
VardaValar1: Evil and Good
VardaValar1: Maybe we should let you rest. : )
Menelvagor Valar: no, you should not.
Menelvagor Valar: keep firing :-)
Menelvagor Valar: I need it :-)
Orodreth V: Okay, I got a fast question.
Menelvagor Valar: besides, I did calculate the all-nighter tonight :-)
Menelvagor Valar: shoot.
Orodreth V: I need a name for a ship.
Orodreth V: The ship class is the Wolf
Orodreth V: and I've already used Vingilot for another ship class.
Eonwe Valar: Draug
Orodreth V: Perfect, thanks Varda. :D
VardaValar1: Draug actually means wolf, also good!
VardaValar1: Rezzed now? : )
Menelvagor Valar: what sort of ship btw?
Menelvagor Valar: space, steam, nuclear, medieval?
VardaValar1: Another theme was what gave actual pleasure.
Hobbit's comfortably living, Elves' singing and beautiful places
Menelvagor Valar: oh well, I need a bit of a time-out to get some
vitalization to my brains.
Eonwe Valar: ok :}
Menelvagor Valar: feel free to continue with bringing up themes and
relations and such :-)
VardaValar1: The bad guys were into reeks, rubble, fortifications,
Eonwe Valar: Go eat some brain food :}
Menelvagor Valar: I will :-)
VardaValar1: Maybe a nap : )
VardaValar1: Eowyn just offered me a WoW computer...
VardaValar1: Mind going...
Menelvagor Valar: nope, you need some distraction as well.
Menelvagor Valar: but do come back later tho :-)
VardaValar1: Mind was as in 'brain', what 's left of it ; )
Menelvagor Valar: figured as much.
Menelvagor Valar: go and get some brainfood yourself then :-)
VardaValar1: Hope you're helping save this transcript
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}
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Eonwe Valar (21:02:58): I think I'll head out for the night.
Eonwe Valar (21:03:06): Take care all, good night, sleep well, and have
(21:03:25) Eonwe Valar has left the room.
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Orodreth V (22:12:46): Menelvagor: Space