Valar Guild

July 2, 2006 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 22:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon-(V), Eonwe-(Valar), and Varda-(Valar)

Attending (10):
    Members: ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), FinduilasV, FladrifV, Haleth V, LuthienV, Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V, ThorondorV
    Visitor: Srekal86

Meeting begins
   Gwaihir and Gilraen: Yesterday Gwaihir flew to England to be with Gilraen and her family before the wedding. Luthien located the wedding date: August 19!
    Varda, family, Elwing are out for movie and dinner
    Games Page update in progress
    WoW Lothar report by Eonwe
       End game for the Scourge Invasion. We were in all the last battles so that Lothar reached the 150th win and ran off the Scourge.
    WoW Argent Dawn report by Ar-Pharazon, Finduilas, Menelvagor
       Finduilas is gaming there too
       Menelvagor has returned as Gondoline
    Well of Souls report by Orodreth
    Eve Online  report by Orodreth
    Eonwe-(Valar)'s topic: Last week we talked about the qualities that made one a hero. What about the qualities that make one a villian?

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Orodreth V has entered the room.
LuthienV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: heya
LuthienV: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: heyas
LuthienV: Heya
Eonwe Valar: *Heya, though heyas works too.
Menelvagor Valar: I totally forgot about the meeting tonight lol
Eonwe Valar: still about 5 minutes 'till the meeting hour.
Eonwe Valar: It happens :}
Orodreth V: Don't worry, at least you're usually awake for it.
Orodreth V: I do have gaming news though.
Menelvagor Valar: might not be for long, I'm wasted.
Eonwe Valar: np Menel.
Menelvagor Valar: went to a metal festival yesterday :)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Menelvagor Valar: do the names "Devil Driver" and "StoneSour" ring a bell?
Eonwe Valar: Not to me.
Menelvagor Valar: oh well :)
Menelvagor Valar: they're pretty good metal bands.
Eonwe Valar: I'll be chairing tonight btw. Elwing, Varda, and family are off to see Superman Returns.
Menelvagor Valar: not exactly my kind of music, I admit that much, but you get kind of swept away by the crowd, and you unwillingly, unwittingly and most of all, undeniably join the crowd :P
Menelvagor Valar: ooh :)
Menelvagor Valar: Hollywood has hired some scientists to reanimate some dead people?
Eonwe Valar: Not quite
Eonwe Valar: New actor to play Superman.
Orodreth V: Heh
Orodreth V: You see the pvp comic about it?
Eonwe Valar: nope
Orodreth V: Just a couple days ago.
Orodreth V: Lemme see
Eonwe Valar: Seems this is going to be the crowd today. If so, this'll be a quick meeting.
Eonwe Valar: Does anyone see anyone else on that isn't in here?
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Orodreth V: Note: not for people who can't stand slightly off-color jokes
Orodreth V:
Eonwe Valar: Just made it in time, Phar :}
Orodreth V: Gelondil
Eonwe Valar: hmm, Doesn't show him as on for me.
Eonwe Valar: See anyone on your Buddy list on that isn't here Phar? (Guild, of course)
ThorondorV has entered the room.
FinduilasV has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya Eagle :}
ThorondorV: Hey, sorry I'm a bit late
Eonwe Valar: Heya Finduilas :}
ArPharazonV: Fladrif's trying to come online, and just invited Finduilas
FinduilasV: Greetings Aiya here
FladrifV has entered the room.
FladrifV: aiya!
ThorondorV: and long time no see I suppose to everyone =)
Eonwe Valar: ok, let me take roll real quick and we'll begin :}
Orodreth V: invited gel
Eonwe Valar: It didn't show FInduilas or Thorondor on for me either, and suddenly here they are :}
Eonwe Valar: To expedite the meeting, please whisper me now if you have any news, and what section it should go to.
Eonwe Valar: Ok, let's begin the meeting!

Eonwe Valar: Elenn sila lumenn omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: Varda along with her family and Elwing have gone to see Superman Returns.
Srekal86 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Also, we should extend our congratulations and well wishes to Gwaihir and Gilraen, as it seems today they are getting married :}
ArPharazonV: ooh, grats
Menelvagor Valar: today?
ArPharazonV: weren't we even invited? tch
Menelvagor Valar: I thought that was later?
Eonwe Valar: According to the meeting notes from last week, Menel :}
Menelvagor Valar: doubt it...
Menelvagor Valar: was in september last I knew.
Eonwe Valar: Let me sift through last weeks AIM report for verification.
Menelvagor Valar: maybe august.
LuthienV: They aren't getting married yet
LuthienV: I believe the marriage is being held in august
Orodreth V: And support sings against Eonwe, but will he recover. Stay tuned for more.
Orodreth V: swings*
Menelvagor Valar: today is the day Gwai flew to Gilraen :)
LuthienV: Yesterday actually :-)
ArPharazonV: right, where he would stay until after the wedding
Eonwe Valar: Seems so, but no mention of the wedding day could I find in the transcript.
Menelvagor Valar: true, wasn't there.
Eonwe Valar: Either way, I stand corrected, it's not quite today :}
Menelvagor Valar: it was announced earlier I think.
Eonwe Valar: Still, congrats to Gwaihir and GIlraen :}
Menelvagor Valar: I'll see if I can find the wedding date for you.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Menel :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?

Eonwe Valar: Ok, on to Web news:
Eonwe Valar: Games Page Update still underway.
Eonwe Valar: If you haven't yet given me your info, get it in now :}
Eonwe Valar: You can whisper me now with that info or you can e-mail me.
Eonwe Valar: Any other guild web news?
Eonwe Valar: We're just moving right along today :}

Eonwe Valar: On to Gaming:
Orodreth V: Hey you get what you pay for. ;-)
Eonwe Valar: WoW Lothar:
Eonwe Valar: "Arrows flew by Auros' head, striking their targets with deadly accuracy. Fainan's archery was in top form this battle. Fainan's owl, Landroval, pecked and clawed with ferocity.
Eonwe Valar: Once again, consecrating the ground beneath his feet once more, Auros took a brief moment to check on Orognome.
ArPharazonV: oro...gnome?
Eonwe Valar: The small size of the Rogue gave him a clear advantage in mobility, and it was not surprising that the ghoul he fought found it hard to keep up with his whirring blades.
Eonwe Valar: The Paladin exorcised Orognome's foe for good measure, bringing the attention of this vicious minion of the Scourge to him.
Eonwe Valar: (Yes, Orognome :})
Eonwe Valar: The battle continued on, the tireless Undead never relenting in their onslaught. Auros brought his blessed hammer into the chest of a ghoul,
Eonwe Valar: then swung it down upon the ghoul's head, smashing the creature with the power of the Light.
Eonwe Valar: The fights blurred as Auros fought to keep the Undead from closing in on his allies.
Eonwe Valar: If the forces gathered to battle these creatures failed, then it would not be long until all of Azeroth fell under the sway of the Lich King.
Eonwe Valar: Finally, after bringing the judgment of the Light down upon one more of Kel Thuzad's shadows, Auros looked up from his defeated foe.
Eonwe Valar: He took off his helm and ran his hand through his silvered hair.
Eonwe Valar: The invasion had carried him and his allies to many battlefields in many lands, from the Plaguelands of northern Lordaeron to the coastlands of Azshara, and finally, they had found themselves here, in the deserts of Tanaris.
Eonwe Valar: Brushing the desert sands from his mustache, Auros let out a sigh and praised the Light as he looked upon the field and saw that no zombie stirred. The Scourge Invasion had been stopped."
ArPharazonV: not bad, not bad...
FinduilasV: Elume was with you indeed "_
Eonwe Valar: And that's my little way of announcing that Myself, Varda, and Orom� fought the Scrouge in one of the last battles of the Scourge Invasion for Guild Questing :}
FinduilasV: :-)]]
Eonwe Valar: *Scourge
Menelvagor Valar: (until the zombie that cried "Scottie beam me up!" returns with some reinforcements :-D)
Eonwe Valar: The Scourge Invasion on Lothar ended during Guild Questing on Friday :}
Eonwe Valar: WoW Europe: Finduilas has some news.
FinduilasV: Thank you , Eonwe
FinduilasV: I reached the magic twelve with my druid
FinduilasV: Aiyata quested herself after serious problems through to the pools of Arilien
FinduilasV: or whatever the name ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
FinduilasV: got rid of some Ambushers
FinduilasV: just trying to find back to the hollow den to get the relics , i got one
FinduilasV: \I have the rune of teleportation for another village
ArPharazonV: moonglade?
FinduilasV: or continent I supposed
FinduilasV: aye
FinduilasV: but I want to finish with this one first
ArPharazonV: yeah, that's why people sometimes envy us druids... cheap and reagent-less way of teleporting across the sea
FinduilasV: Calaron showed me the way by the way
FinduilasV: my thanks to him :-)
ArPharazonV: :-)
FinduilasV: I had a bit company earlier on but it was a stupid player
FinduilasV: bit agressive and drew attention of guards and such
FinduilasV: any way , I am back on my own and will sure Elume will guide my steps
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Finduilas and congrats :}
FinduilasV: :-)
FinduilasV: bows
Eonwe Valar: SLight interruption of gaming for member News: Luthien found the date of the Wedding for me:
Eonwe Valar: August 19th :}
Eonwe Valar: We now return you to your regularly scheduled gaming :}
ArPharazonV: my WoW report then?
ArPharazonV: while we're at it...
Eonwe Valar: Menel informs me he's been back in WoW since Monday :}
Eonwe Valar: Aye, go for it, Phar :}
ArPharazonV: well, Calaron, my druid, my main, has not seen any scourge invaders this week...
FladrifV has left the room.
ThorondorV: Sorry fellas, but I've gotta go. Just fell asleep and woke up I think, so bed calls ;-)
FinduilasV: ah shame nice to meet you though Thorondor
ArPharazonV: they were there, no doubt, but after many battles and many victories, new generations of heroes had swarmed around him, and he figured his services were no longer needed
ArPharazonV: so I'm not sure whether the invasion has still been going on this week, but I did not participate in it
ThorondorV: Nice to meet you too, Fin :-) was nice to see you all - g'night
ThorondorV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: instead, Calaron has continued his assault on Ahn'Qiraj, defeating once more the evil Fankriss and gaining what's at the moment (unless Naxx has something better) the best feral shoulders in the game!
ArPharazonV: yet raiding was not all he did
ArPharazonV: he has been working hard for the Argent Dawn and delivered enough remnants of fallen foes to earn himself a new 18-slot bag
FladrifV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: he has also been slaying elemental foes in Felwood and Silithus to gain essences for a new helmet and an enchant on his oldest and yet perhaps best epic weapon...
ArPharazonV: the warden staff has been in his possession for many months and levels, and it was about that this service and loyalty was repaid.. so this week I've gotten it enchanted with 25 agility!
ArPharazonV: *about time
ArPharazonV: of course, I have not been soloing all the time
ArPharazonV: for I logged to my (lorewise) twin sister in Teldrassil to help a young druid make her way to the pools of Arlithrien
FinduilasV: :-)
ArPharazonV: a young druid by the name Aiyata, who quickly surpassed Caliona (my hunter) in skill and level
ArPharazonV: she also helped a young hunter, strangely related to Aiyata, in the fight to clear Shadowglen from an imbalance in nature, unfortunately slaying many nightsabers and boars in the process
Haleth V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: they also engaged some spiders in their cave, to assist in the research of an elven scientist
ArPharazonV: unfortunately, she has not had word from this hunter in some time... and fears her new companion may have been prematurely taken from the world of Azeroth
ArPharazonV: but so is life.. not all can grow up to be heroes of their time
FinduilasV: I am sure she will find her way back :-)
ArPharazonV: didn't you delete her?
FinduilasV: I did actually , but I might return with a hunter
ArPharazonV: ahh
ArPharazonV: I've also started playing more with my paladin
ArPharazonV: who has undertaken the first steps on a road that will certainly give her a headache in time...
ArPharazonV: for she has stepped in the service of Magni Bronzebeard in the great profession of the Armorsmith
ArPharazonV: which is, I have been told, the hardest profession of all :-)
ArPharazonV: but she's tough, and will survive... and be more glorious for it
LuthienV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Next week, Calaron will step up to the new raidinstance with his friends of the Rising Star Alliance, and enter Naxxramas for the first time
ArPharazonV: seeking to throw down the great lich Kel'Thuzad and end the Scourge threat in Lordaeron once and for all
ArPharazonV: and that concludes my report for this week
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Phar :}
ArPharazonV: with, of course, Gondoline's re-entry
ArPharazonV: but I have not really interacted with her yet
Eonwe Valar: Orodreth has some news on the Well of Souls, Eve front.
Eonwe Valar: *Well of Souls/Eve
Orodreth V: Yessah.
Orodreth V: Well, my computer went down two weeks ago, and it took me several days tog et it back, which involved a full wipe
Orodreth V: I was able to save most things, but I have now found out that I forgot one (irreplaceable) folder. At any rate, I will be back in WoS as of today, and have been back in Eve for two.
Orodreth V: Findulas is still the only member that I know of in Eve, so nothing to report there.
Eonwe Valar: Sorry to hear you lost that irreplaceable folder, Orodreth.
Orodreth V: WoS, as I said before, the guild is up, and once you have level 20 and 20 hours (player, which means AFK counts), you can apply if I or someone else wearing the uniform is on.
ArPharazonV: I'm never afk... I just quit the game then
Orodreth V: No alts, of course. :-)
ArPharazonV: which means i"m about lvl 20, but only 6 hours of play or so
Orodreth V: Just leave you logged in and you'll be up to 2 in no time.
Orodreth V: Not liek WoS takes up much cpu time or ram. :-)
Orodreth V: er
Orodreth V: 20
Orodreth V: Anyways, I have a level 100 and can help anyone who needs it with a quest or knowledge about Aeri.
Menelvagor Valar: sorry to bust your story...
Orodreth V: Server is till in the works, and the-the-the-that's all, folks.
Menelvagor Valar: but I'm going to bed, it's been one hell of a weekend.
Menelvagor Valar: in a good sense :)
ArPharazonV: goodnight, Menel!
FinduilasV: good night Menel
FinduilasV: Namarie
FladrifV: time to sleep hopefully am I next time more there so to say :-) namarie
Menelvagor Valar: good night.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Orodreth.
ArPharazonV: night Flad
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
Orodreth V: If anyone who meets the reqs is on right now, I can go meet them and let them in, and if I'm not on WoS, message me on aim when you get there and I'll try to respond asap.
Eonwe Valar: Any more gaming news before we move into Tolkien?
ArPharazonV: sorry, I don't WoS anymore during guild-meeting
ArPharazonV: has happened to me several times now that the sound bugged and had to reboot, thus getting an incomplete transcript
Orodreth V: Turn sound off, problem solved.
Orodreth V: did you email dan?
ArPharazonV: email? no, not yet.. I could try that
Eonwe Valar: Whisper me Tolkien topics if you have one. Otherwise you get mine :}
Orodreth V: turning sound off is better, though. I think everyone can safely admit most sounds in WoS are simply annoying, anyways..
ArPharazonV: meh, I like the music, mostly

Eonwe Valar: ok, here we go, Tolkien time:
Eonwe Valar: Last week we talked about the qualities that made one a hero. What about the qualities that make one a villian?
ArPharazonV: let's start with a thirst for power
FinduilasV: Slyness, dishonesty
ArPharazonV: arrogance
Haleth V: Without a sense of compassion.
Eonwe Valar: Denethor had arrogance.
FinduilasV: taking no heed of his or her fellow companions
Orodreth V: Hmm
ArPharazonV: willingness to achieve your desire without caring who you screw over.. excuse the wording
Orodreth V: wait, nevermind
Orodreth V: was thinking of an antihero
FinduilasV: Aye oro?
Eonwe Valar: So, one striving for a good ends while using an evil means is still a villian?
ArPharazonV: hm... guess it's also the intentions, of course
Orodreth V: but antiheros arn't villians, kinda..
Orodreth V: sorta
ArPharazonV: whether it's defending your own or conquering the other
Haleth V: But striving for a good end while using an evil means is in and of itself immoral.
ArPharazonV: the end does not justify the means
Haleth V: Right.
Eonwe Valar: It seems Galadriel and Gandalf at least would agree. Both refusing the Ring.
FinduilasV: Isn't that why all our heroes of last weak didn't want to take the ring of power?
Eonwe Valar: Denethor seems to disagree however.
ArPharazonV: well I can't call Denethor a hero.. I'm sure he might have been in past ages, but in these days, the only thing seperating him from the definition of villain is his intentions
Orodreth V: What about a character who uses what he believes are good means to get a honestly good end, but the narrator/another character/the viewer does not?
Eonwe Valar: Can you find an example of that in LotR?
Orodreth V: not believe the measn and/or end are good*
Orodreth V: Denethor springs to mind..
FinduilasV: I suppose Denethor lost his self respect, hope and went down in utter despair I uess
FinduilasV: guess
Orodreth V: But I was thinking of Oscar Saint-Just from the Honor Harrington series.
ArPharazonV: how about Feanor?
ArPharazonV: and his sons?
Eonwe Valar: Explain how Denethor fits your suggestion, Orodreth.
Orodreth V: Actually, he dosn't..
Orodreth V: And neither does Feanor
ArPharazonV: certainly they could be classified as villains when they raided Doriath, for example
ArPharazonV: although they certainly didn't see themselves that way
Orodreth V: Becasue I'm talking about a rational mind.
Orodreth V: One that has looked and sees things one way based on their value system.
Orodreth V: not raging fanaticisim or madness
Orodreth V: or depression, in Denethor's case
Eonwe Valar: Well that makes one ask whether a villian ever sees himself as a villian, Phar.
ArPharazonV: good point :-)
Orodreth V: Nah
Orodreth V: that's the realm of the antihero.
Orodreth V: which is what I think Saint-Just falls into.
FinduilasV: I dont know this Saint Just but Iain Banks likes using antiheroes *grin*
Orodreth V: but I was wondering what you all thought in a general sence
Eonwe Valar: Well, crossing book worlds gets a bit ugly.
FinduilasV: aye
FinduilasV: back to Tolkiebn ")
FinduilasV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: Because one believe he or she is good, does not make one good.
Eonwe Valar: In Lord of the Rings, a sign of good is generally that it does not attempt to impede on another's free will.
Eonwe Valar: The Valar did not interfere in the march of the Noldor because of this. "Freely ye came and freely ye may depart."
Eonwe Valar: Lord of the Rings is full of references to characters making choices.
Eonwe Valar: The Wise were loath to give council to others for fear of directing that person's choices.
Eonwe Valar: The Elves Frodo met as he left the Shire is such an example.
FinduilasV: Gildor didnt like to ..
FinduilasV: aye lol bingo
Eonwe Valar: When it was explained to Aul� what his creation of the Dwarves meant, he repented, saying he did not seek to make a creature to dominate, but rather something unique and existing of its own.
FinduilasV: snap I should say *grin*
Orodreth V: what about commands given to troops, such as Aragorn commanding the rangers?
Haleth V: Well, I have to get going... namarie, all. =)
Orodreth V: How is that different?
ArPharazonV: Elrond was also quite open with what he commanded of the Fellowship... none of them had to go further than they wanted
Eonwe Valar: That's of a different sort.
Haleth V has left the room.
Srekal86 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: The Rangers followed Aragorn of their free will.
Orodreth V: They freely give themselves to his did those who asked counsil of the Wise.
ArPharazonV: Elrond could not put the Ring on anyone by his command... the carrier had to do it of his own free will
ArPharazonV: as well as those who went with him
ArPharazonV: he gave them the choice... and they made the right one
Orodreth V: But why the difference between Elrond and Aragron? Both groups gave themselves of their free will to do as he commanded..
Orodreth V: Actually, I'm not thinking of that but of Frodo and Galadriel.
Eonwe Valar: The fellowship was not a military structure. All members went to aid the Ringbearer, but were not required to continue further than they wished. Look at Gimli's and Elrond's conversation there for why Elrond did not demand more.
Eonwe Valar: The Rangers, on the other hand, are a military structure, with Aragorn at its head.
FinduilasV: it made sense this structure, though - given the task of the rangers ..
Eonwe Valar: But ordering someone to take the Ring is different from ordering someone to put a watch on the Shire, for instance.
ArPharazonV: ...what does that say about Denethor?
ArPharazonV: how did he command his troops? his son(s)?
Orodreth V: I'm not asking specifically about the ring, but in general.
Orodreth V: Why can't elves give any counsil if the one asking is asking of their own free will, yet they can obviously command troops?
Eonwe Valar: Elves can give counsil, but are loath to because of their past.
Eonwe Valar: *counsel.
Eonwe Valar: Look at what the Elves have been through: marching against Morgoth, several hundred years of war with him, the forging of the Rings and several hundred years of War with Sauron.
Orodreth V: it's a counsil but they give counsel? stupid english.
ArPharazonV: it's a council, actually
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Councils give Counsel.
Eonwe Valar: :}
Orodreth V: /me shakes his head
FinduilasV: hmmm, aye
Orodreth V: My native language and I still don't get it.
Orodreth V: anyways..
Eonwe Valar: Talk to Tolkien :} He's seems to have had a command of it :}
FinduilasV: well I suppose it was Morgoths and Saurons "own fault:
FinduilasV: they always sought their own good to gain more power
FinduilasV: they did impose the war on the elves in a way ..
FinduilasV: through their deceptions
Eonwe Valar: That brings us to how Evil exibits itself in Ea: through the wish to remove free will, or to put it simply, to dominate others.
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth and Sauron exibited this. The orcs exibit this. There is no love between the orcs and other orcs, or the Orcs and their Masters.
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth couldn't care less if people loved him, so long as they obey him.
FinduilasV: they tended to mock if people did love them or show some sort of affection
FinduilasV: they dont know what love is or if they ever did refused it
Eonwe Valar: They have forgotten pity, remorse, and love.
Eonwe Valar: Saruman walked down this road as well.
FinduilasV: :-(
Eonwe Valar: It seems by studying too deeply the ringlore, Saruman became enamoured of wielding such power.
Eonwe Valar: He even went as far as attempting to create his own Ring.
Eonwe Valar: Another marker of Evil is the inability to create anything new or beautiful, only mock that which has been created.
Eonwe Valar: *mock or mar.
ArPharazonV: could the Good create anything new, then?
FinduilasV: This was shown greatly in the "improvement" of Orthanc ..
ArPharazonV: wasn't it just Iluvatar's ability to really "create" something that Morgoth became jealous of?
FinduilasV: not really any thing new, Phara, but they did create in imitation of Eru eh?
FinduilasV: or in honor
FinduilasV: of
Eonwe Valar: Yavanna created the Two Trees.
Eonwe Valar: F�anor created the Silmarilli.
ArPharazonV: true
FinduilasV: didnt they pay for it?
Eonwe Valar: It was the ability to instill life that, a f�a that Eru alone held as I recall.
Eonwe Valar: It was that that Melkor coveted.
Eonwe Valar: And he sought ever for the Imperishable Flame when he went into the dark beyond the Timeless Halls.
ArPharazonV: but he could not find it.. for it was with Eru
Eonwe Valar: The Imperishable Flame rests with Eru, however, so he never found it, and his thoughts became darker the more he searched.
ArPharazonV: didn't Eru send the Flame to the heart of the world?
Orodreth V: More he searched for the flame, the farther from the light he god.
Eonwe Valar: Aye, he did.
Orodreth V: No blatant symbolisim there.
Eonwe Valar: He who has eyes to see :}
FinduilasV: :-)
FinduilasV: maybe Morgoth guessed, thats why he tried to destroy Ea
FinduilasV: and the Valar guarded it
Eonwe Valar: Eru actually told them he was sending the Imperishable Flame into Ea.
Eonwe Valar: So that the World (read Universe, or all of existence) would have life.
ArPharazonV: he tried to destroy Ea because he was not lord of it, and had little part in its making... it was not his
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Phar.
ArPharazonV: I remember reading that Morgoth knew naught but destruction in the end, and if he had won he would have continued to rage on Arda until it was a shapeless mass, and he would still have failed.. for it was not his
Eonwe Valar: He could've had a part in its making, but instead he chose to create discord, and attempt to take command of the Music.
ArPharazonV: he was not content with just being a part, he wanted to be in command... and in doing so he threw away everything he could have had
Eonwe Valar: Aye
ArPharazonV: another characteristic of evil: the inability to compromise?
Eonwe Valar: I'm not so sure.
Eonwe Valar: Did the Valar compromise with Morgoth?
ArPharazonV: well, they were content with shutting him out of Valinor for many years, leaving the rest of the world in his hands
Eonwe Valar: Aye, they were, until the Awakening of the Elves came nearer.
ArPharazonV: I meant after :-)
Eonwe Valar: They didn't say "Well, we'll take some, and Morgoth can have some, and after a few thousnad years, we'll compare the two and see who did better."
ArPharazonV: when he had killed the trees and gone off with the silmarils
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Eonwe Valar: I think the Valar would've been shocked by that outcome :}
Eonwe Valar: They only left Morgoth alone after the Darkening of Valinor because the Oath had to take its course.
Eonwe Valar: They also did not know where Men were to awaken.
Eonwe Valar: I recall a quote similar to the following:
Eonwe Valar: "And just as they marched to war for for the awakening of the Eldar, of the Awakening of Men they waited."
Eonwe Valar: Now if I can figure out where that quote comes from, I'll let you know :}
Eonwe Valar: afk for a quick sec. Please continue the discussion :}
ArPharazonV: heh
FinduilasV: oh my fingers itch *grin*
Eonwe Valar: ok, back :}
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
ArPharazonV: I think I've run out of things to say..
Eonwe Valar: I think we've covered the major indications of Evil in Tolkien's books.
Eonwe Valar: Domination of others and inability to make anything new or beautiful. Any others anyone can think of?
Eonwe Valar: I'll throw this little tidbit in:
Eonwe Valar: The Eldar did not do or make anything new in the Third Age, but this was not because they couldn't.
Eonwe Valar: Their had turned rather to maintaining what they already had.
ArPharazonV: true
ArPharazonV: the preservation/change issue was a central theme in the fight between good and evil
Eonwe Valar: Was this a wise decision to seek to preserve rather than to create new things?
ArPharazonV: I guess opinions would differ on that
Eonwe Valar: That's why I asked :}
Eonwe Valar: I want to hear those opinions :}
ArPharazonV: some people thrive on change and innovation, others on routine and security of the past
ArPharazonV: I myself have always chosen the latter, but I wouldn't know what would make me more right than any other... just a question of what you're willing to risk, in the end, I think
Eonwe Valar: It seems Gandalf thought that some things at least should be preserved.
Eonwe Valar: One sec, and I can get a quote on that.
Eonwe Valar: Or I think I can...
FinduilasV: hmm I would think so , not all the old things are bad and some are definitely worth to be preserved
ArPharazonV: I think that's one point where Tolkien's opinion really came through.. he himself was focused on preservation it seems, and against the upcoming industry destroying the environment
Eonwe Valar: Well, many industries in that time were destroying the environment.
ArPharazonV: true, but again, it's a matter of opinion whether that's progress... or, well, evil
Eonwe Valar: One in particular had torn down a tree he'd loved as a child.
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Eonwe Valar: And, oddly enough, we have Ents tearing down Saruman's contraptions... :}
ArPharazonV: Ents tearing down contraptions tearing down Ents
ArPharazonV: or trees
ArPharazonV: basically to put an end on the growing industry and save or avenge the environment
Eonwe Valar: Trees, don't try this at home :}
ArPharazonV: for that was also a sign of evil for Saruman.. his shift from love for nature to love for technology, wheels, machinery
Eonwe Valar: Bah, can't find that quote right now after all.
Eonwe Valar: maybe it's in RotK.
ArPharazonV: as Treebeard about said, there was a time when Saruman would walk in his woods
ArPharazonV: but in the end he just tears it down
ArPharazonV: definitely portrayed by Tolkien as an evil act
Eonwe Valar: Saruman was tearing it down just to fuel his fires of destruction.
Eonwe Valar: Sometimes he was killing trees just to kill trees.
Eonwe Valar: Wanton destruction.
ArPharazonV: and yet I can't shake the feeling that there's a message in there.... that says nature good, machine bad... just look at the Shire
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure that's a general feeling Tolkien had at the time.
ArPharazonV: and although I myself would agree with him, it cannot be objectively seen as an inherently "evil" characteristic, though it was portrayed as this in Tolkien's works
Eonwe Valar: The Dwarves would likely be industrious themselves.
Eonwe Valar: That argument came up in the Sil between Aul� and Yavanna, and seems to have been the cause of some contention.
Eonwe Valar: Aul�'s simple response "They'll still need wood." ending the conversation.
ArPharazonV: to be fair, the Dwarves were originally portrayed as a purely evil race... though that idea was removed in later times
Eonwe Valar: Aye
Eonwe Valar: That's partly still reflected with Mim the petty Dwarf as I recall.
Eonwe Valar: Well, it seems it's down to us :} Shall we call it a night here? :}
ArPharazonV: hmm... perhaps
Eonwe Valar: Oh, my opinion: somewhere between preservasion and doing new things :}
ArPharazonV: ah, the golden middle...
Eonwe Valar: Not all should be preserved, and not all should be lost.
FinduilasV: Indeed
FinduilasV: I think we should choose what we want
Eonwe Valar: Not all can be preserved, but almost anything can be lost.
FinduilasV: what we want to preserve I mean
Eonwe Valar: Some things just need to be preserved :} I'm sure Sauron would've liked it if the line of Kings had not been preserved :}
Eonwe Valar: Anyway, let's call it here :}
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs gavel*

FinduilasV: Good night to ye then :-)
ArPharazonV: good night
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well :}
Eonwe Valar: Escape while you can :}
FinduilasV: Namarie until we meet again :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
ArPharazonV: and I'll see you in WoW ;-)
FinduilasV: will ye I wonder
FinduilasV: gromn
FinduilasV: grinn
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ArPharazonV: allrighty then, I'll save and send
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: Gotta go copy the Lothar Questing to the Forum now :}
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: with surrounding RP and all?
Eonwe Valar: Everything I put in here is going into the report :}
ArPharazonV: allright :-)
Eonwe Valar: Not the first time I've given the report a tinge of RP.
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: saved
ArPharazonV: 't is sent
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
ArPharazonV: okidoki then, I'll be off, I guess.. oh, and: this is the weapon I'm going to aim for in Naxxramas:
Eonwe Valar: Just waiting for it to load :}
Eonwe Valar: Nice.
ArPharazonV: yupyup
Eonwe Valar: Looks about what a Paladin would want for tanking (I hear) minus the bonues to Druid abilities.
Eonwe Valar: *bonus
ArPharazonV: heh.. I'd kill any paladin who'd take this over a feral druid
Eonwe Valar: the int, stam, aman regen, and spell damage being particularly useful. Some Paladins say fast 1-handers arethe way to go, some say speed on the weapon isn't that important,.. etc etc
Eonwe Valar: Oh no, not saying one should :}
ArPharazonV: luckily, I'm the only feral druid in our community... so I'd probably be the first one to get it
Eonwe Valar: The + to Druid abilities clearly makes this more intended for Druids.
ArPharazonV: also, 43.2 dps is quite low for a weapon of this level, for a class that would actually use weapon dps
ArPharazonV: luckily, we cats and bears are not bothered by that ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Paladins tank through Holy Damage, which means they need int and spell damage :}
ArPharazonV: true
Eonwe Valar: and mana regen :}
Eonwe Valar: So the weapon damage itself is not quite so important, per se.
ArPharazonV: oh, of course, this one's better:
ArPharazonV: but a bit harder to get!
Eonwe Valar: Well now, that is interesting.
ArPharazonV: to start the quest, you need to form the frame from 40 shards dropping in Naxxramas, then the base from C'thun, and the head from Kel'Thuzad
ArPharazonV: the 40 shards alone make this a very rare weapon
Eonwe Valar: oh of course. it's gotta require 2 different 40'man raids to put together :}
ArPharazonV: anyway, I'll be off then
Eonwe Valar: Take care Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well or have fun, whichever way you're heading :}
ArPharazonV: I'm sorry to spoil your mind with these glorious weapons, as you are not part of a raid-community :-)
Eonwe Valar: Eh :}
ArPharazonV: Namarie! I'm not sure what I'll be doing
ArPharazonV: goodnight
Eonwe Valar: Sleep well :}
Eonwe Valar: Good night :}
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}
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