Valar Guild

April 9, 2006 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 23:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon-(V) and Varda-(Valar)

Attending (9)
    ArPharazonV, Arwen V1, Eonwe Valar, Finrod-(V)/TH0R0NGIL, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet, FarmerMaggot-(V), Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V/Oessala, VardaValar1

Meeting begins
    Arwen's personal page
    Art: Cave of TJ-(TV), Cave of Cassia-(TV)
    Stories: Exile
    Article: World of Tolkien. The author, Menelvagor, is present in the chat and tells us about his article
    DoD: Source
    Age of Wonders
    Rayman 2
    WC2 Expansion
    WoW Lothar and WoW Europe reports.
    Fear as used in Tolkien
    Legolas' age
    Tom and Goldberry's nature

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
TH0R0NGIL has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: time goes by fast when running around with a lvl 16 rogue.. I'll say my goodbyes then in WoW
Eonwe Valar: Heya all
FarmerMaggotV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Afraid I won't be able to stay more than 30-45 min
VardaValar1: Maybe we can wrap up quickly : )
VardaValar1: We'd probably all like that
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Fladrif has problems with his wireless network
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya
VardaValar1: ouch
ArPharazonV: still has MSN, but no AIM
ArPharazonV: so won't be there tonight
ArPharazonV: *here
VardaValar1: No bridge sadly
VardaValar1: I'll go ahead and start. We can scroll or back up to old business at need.

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo!
VardaValar1: Membership:
VardaValar1: Too many side windows for speed, bear with me : )
VardaValar1: Yes, we had a meeting last week
VardaValar1: Unfortunately, we had to go to Valar Guild Meetingplace2
VardaValar1: since we couldn't make the usual one come up.
VardaValar1: The transcript is on the News page
Orodreth V has entered the room.
Oessala has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Orodreth and doppelganger : )
VardaValar1: Any other membership news?

VardaValar1: Web News:
VardaValar1: Wondering if we should play with our Encyclopedia's name, such as Encyclopedia Plus ; ) or Tolkien Site
VardaValar1: We have an addition to our Member's personal sites
VardaValar1: Arwen made a lovely page for her poetry and art, Blue Goof:
VardaValar1: Under artwork, we have a new Cave for TJ-(TV) of France
VardaValar1: He made a map that lawyers have not asked to be taken down
VardaValar1: It's a beauty, already linked on our Map page, but it's now in the art too
VardaValar1: He also shows how he used it to make a board game that he plays with family and friends
VardaValar1: He asked if we had any programmers in Valar who might be willing to help him make a simple computer game from it
VardaValar1: We have some talented programmers here, if any of you would like to play with this in your off time, whatever that is
FarmerMaggotV: heh
VardaValar1: For those asking, Thorongil is Finrod-V : )
VardaValar1: Confusing, I know : )
TH0R0NGIL: :-[
VardaValar1: Would be nice if our Aragorn could make it, but since he can't, no worries
VardaValar1: Notice we have other people with names that are even more confusing, so don't feel too bad
Menelvagor Valar: Don't look too long to my name, or you'll get a headache and watery eyes :-P
VardaValar1: If anyone would like to make a guild name for us that is always welcome, but be sure we know to invite it!
Menelvagor Valar: at my name*
VardaValar1: The yellow is enough for that, Menel ; )
Menelvagor Valar: AIM at work again I suppose, I'm red here, Farmer is yellow to me
VardaValar1: Under Stories, we have a new one up from Cassia and Siobhan on their Mellon Chronicles series
VardaValar1: "Exile"
VardaValar1: Illustrated as usual by Cassia-(TV)
VardaValar1: and her artwork is also on her Cave with links back to the stories
VardaValar1: Under Articles, we have a new one by Menelvagor, who's in the room
VardaValar1: Take a bow, Menel!
Menelvagor Valar: can I have an arrow too? :-D
VardaValar1: *passes quiver and arrow bag, with arrows yet!*
Menelvagor Valar: *thanks*
VardaValar1: Try not to burn them
Eonwe Valar: No, but we'll give you an aft :}
Menelvagor Valar: Might convert them into fire arrows.
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe, if you give me an sh and some feathers, that's fine.
VardaValar1: This is especially interesting because in this article he uses our guild as a reference, and it's a school paper.
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
Menelvagor Valar: A school assignment which had me dig deeper into English culture.
VardaValar1: Do we have any other Web news, web masters?
Menelvagor Valar: and what better way than to dig deeper into Tolkien?
VardaValar1: Too right, Menelvagor : )
Menelvagor Valar: Can I do a quick explanation?
VardaValar1: That would be great! Have at it!
Menelvagor Valar: The paper is divided into 2 sections.
Menelvagor Valar: The first one handles the influence Tolkien has on modern Fantasy.
Menelvagor Valar: As it turns out, it was not only Fantasy, but a much wider area, including Science Fiction, and even literature and movies which are non-fantasy.
Menelvagor Valar: I have compared to a number of modern works, such as Harry Potter and Star Trek, on a number of topics, such as immensity of content (world and inhabitants), races, languages and some more.
Menelvagor Valar: The second one deals with the themes in LotR compared to every day life.
Menelvagor Valar: Of course, a theme is taken from life, but as it is more than 50 years ago since LotR was published, it was interesting to dig into that topic.
Menelvagor Valar: subjects in this second topic are, among others, comraderie, love and fellowship.
Menelvagor Valar: I compare those to every day life and find some odd conclusions.
Menelvagor Valar: some are unfortunately not that well represented nowadays, while others are still common sense.
Menelvagor Valar: I won't give too much away, it's too good a read to do that :-)
Menelvagor Valar: oh yes, again, special thanks to Eonwe and Varda for helping me out to get all the material.
VardaValar1: Glad to help
Eonwe Valar: MP
Menelvagor Valar: oh, done already 8-)
VardaValar1: Thank you for your report, Menel : )
VardaValar1: On other web news, Arwen and I were trying out the Wiki program
VardaValar1: We found that it really does not work well for us, due to the vast amount of copyrighted material we use
VardaValar1: Because we do copyrights, we have been allowed to use resources not allowed on places like Wiki
VardaValar1: where their work may be modified.
VardaValar1: This hits us in every single spot
VardaValar1: If there is interest in doing a Wiki anyway, we could possibly run one on the side, but it seemed like a splitting of work that didn't seem to be of help anywhere
VardaValar1: If anyone has another opinion, please make it known, because we did download the program and could still do it if there is enough interest
VardaValar1: There are already about five Tolkien Wikis out there
VardaValar1: Any comment?
VardaValar1: Anyone alive out there? : )
ArPharazonV: alive, but without comment
VardaValar1: That works too
TH0R0NGIL: *pinches self
TH0R0NGIL: ya, still alive
Eonwe Valar: Not interested in Wiki myself, you're maintaining the Encyclopedia.
VardaValar1: I'd rather not be the one also maintaining the Wiki
Eonwe Valar: Then Probably no good to you :}
VardaValar1: Someone has to keep an eye on a Wiki
VardaValar1: I have heard a few members say they thought a Wiki would be a good idea
VardaValar1: If they are still interested, I'd like to hear from them
VardaValar1: My email is always open : )

VardaValar1: Gaming:
VardaValar1: Finrod (Thorongil in here) is looking for fellow D2X players
VardaValar1: Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction
VardaValar1: Do you have any particular times you are available, Finrod?
TH0R0NGIL: Most evenings
VardaValar1: What is your time zone? We are world-wide
TH0R0NGIL: It is 5:40 here now
VardaValar1: I think he means Eastern Standard Daylight Savings Time
TH0R0NGIL: lol
VardaValar1: Same as Valar Standard time
Menelvagor Valar: aye.
VardaValar1: So what do you consider to be "evening"?
TH0R0NGIL: 4-5 or later...I dunno, it varies from day to day
VardaValar1: So starting about late afternoon : )
VardaValar1: In a side window, we are backing up slightly
TH0R0NGIL: Something like that...
VardaValar1: The Tolkien Encyclopedia is being set up with an index for each person, place, etc
VardaValar1: "Places" was pretty much completed today
TH0R0NGIL: Does anyone else even still play D2 though? I know it is getting somewhat ancient....
Eonwe Valar: I dabble in the ME mod, but I've never updated to the new bnet version.
VardaValar1: While looking at it, we discovered that most of the "evil" places don't have articles, just images
VardaValar1: Finrod, the people who don't want to pay to play (MMORPG's) still play it
FarmerMaggotV: I play D2x
FarmerMaggotV: just on the LAN though
TH0R0NGIL has left the room.
FarmerMaggotV: I lost my D2 CD key (but not D2x), so it's not quite a legal install
TH0R0NGIL has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Welcome back
TH0R0NGIL: lol...not sure how that happened...
TH0R0NGIL: I never use chat rooms
VardaValar1: You do now : )
TH0R0NGIL: true
VardaValar1: Welcome to your first practice session : )
TH0R0NGIL: lol
VardaValar1: Do you also play BroodWar?
TH0R0NGIL: sometimes
TH0R0NGIL: I'm not very good at it though
VardaValar1: Some of our group still use it too
VardaValar1: Not required : )
VardaValar1: Has anyone played games this week that are not WoW? This includes DAoC, EQ, and non-pay games. : )
FarmerMaggotV: DoD:S
VardaValar1: Could you tell us what that abbreviation stands for? : )
FarmerMaggotV: Day of Defeat: Source
VardaValar1: Thanks
VardaValar1: We've also had two requests for Age of Wonders gamers
TH0R0NGIL: Is that any better than the original DoD?
FarmerMaggotV: IMO yea
FarmerMaggotV: but I've played the original for about 10 minutes
TH0R0NGIL:'s not worth more than that
ArPharazonV: I've played a bit of Rayman 2
VardaValar1: How did you like it, Phar?
ArPharazonV: and today I went in lightning speed through Warcraft 2 expansion trying to find Teron Gorefiend's icon for a forum, but it turns out War2 doesn't screenshot well
ArPharazonV: I liked it, I already had nearly finished it about a year ago
VardaValar1: Ahh, we have a time problem, sorry to cut you short, Phar
ArPharazonV: and this time, starting over, I plan to do the whole thing
VardaValar1: Eonwe, would you like to give the World of WarCraft: Lothar report?
ArPharazonV: allright then :-)
ArPharazonV: no problem
Eonwe Valar: Aye
VardaValar1: (Good luck, Phar!)
Eonwe Valar: This week we made it through the entirety of Dire Maul East.
Eonwe Valar: We had Myself, Bilbo, Sauron, and Draxcil/Beline the whole time. We would've had Gil-Galad but he disconnected and never came back.
VardaValar1: Gil probably just couldn't. He has comp problems
Eonwe Valar: A little later, however, Oromë popped in and he got to join us on his first chance to go on a high level guild questing run :}
Eonwe Valar: I figured it was something like that, aye Varda.
Eonwe Valar: We went after the Crescent Key first, and obtainint that went after Lethendris.
Eonwe Valar: Since a couple of us had only a little time we skipped some mobs here and there to speed up the process, but as far as I could tell we hit all the bosses :}
Eonwe Valar: Oromë's Stealth came in handy when he snuck to an Ancient NPC we needed to talk to and had him bust down a door for us :}
Eonwe Valar: We all then made a run for it, though we all didn't make it in one piece :}
Eonwe Valar: At the end of the hall we came upon the chamber of the Main boss.
Eonwe Valar: Sneaking past his Ancient guards, we fought him and as a result, claimed the Felvine :}
ArPharazonV: ooh, Milli's Lexicon, eh?
Eonwe Valar: So, I got to complete a quest :}
Eonwe Valar: Actually, I picked the Shield for my Paladin.
ArPharazonV: ahh
Eonwe Valar: The 4hp/5sec doesn't seem to be working though.
Eonwe Valar: That concludes my report.
Eonwe Valar: And with it, my time.
Eonwe Valar: Unless there are questions on today's run? :}
Eonwe Valar: Sauron got a couple of nice items, Beline got a healer item for his Paladin, my luck just plain stunk :}
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: Though later than night it was made up for by a niec blue drop of boots in WInterspring for my Priest when he's in his 50s :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, now that is the end of my report :}
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe : )
Eonwe Valar: MP :}
VardaValar1: I hope to make that Dire Maul with you again, sometime : )
Eonwe Valar: Take care all, good night, sleep well, and have fun :}
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: Always next week :}
VardaValar1: Namarie
VardaValar1: We can hope : )
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: (Be sure to whisper Tolkien topics, one so far)
VardaValar1: Ar-Pharazon, do you have a WoW Europe report?
ArPharazonV: sure
ArPharazonV: haven't seen Menelvagor in-game, think he's still not playing
ArPharazonV: I have seen Valandil, though
ArPharazonV: he tells me he doesn't really have much time to come to meetings and the like, therefore he'll try to stay in contact a bit through me, I guess
ArPharazonV: and that's it for the Valar-members
ArPharazonV: as for me and my raidgroup... we finally got the first boss in Ahn'Qiraj, the 40-man instance, down
ArPharazonV: time to start racking in reputation for the Brood of Nozdormu
ArPharazonV: this week I got Onyxia's head, which got me a good trinket for my bearform
ArPharazonV: and I started on the Feralheart quests, the new questline brought in with the new patch
ArPharazonV: which is about getting all the "tier 0" classset-pieces from high level instances, and upgrading them to a new set through a series of quests
ArPharazonV: like Wildheart, Shadowcraft, Lightforge and such sets
ArPharazonV: got my chestpiece today before the meeting from the final boss of Upper Blackrock Spire, and already have 3 other pieces in my possession, the first already upgraded
ArPharazonV: and I got my fishing to 300!
VardaValar1: That's one of the toughest things in WoW, the fishing 300 : )
VardaValar1: Takes immense patience : ) Congrats!
ArPharazonV: which should now allow me to prepare to summon a boss in the Zul'Gurub instance.. it has to be me, since I'm the only one interested in his loot
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: so I got the last 110 points over the last 2 weeks :-)
VardaValar1: Ouch
VardaValar1: I get a lot of points waiting on boats ; )
ArPharazonV: as well as a Big Iron Fishing Pole, with +20 fishing, a rare drop from shellfish traps off the coast of the Desolace
VardaValar1: That takes patience too
ArPharazonV: maybe some day I'll start competing in the Stranglethorn Fishing Extravaganza, if I can get myself out of bed early enough on sundays
VardaValar1: Except I got my first one fast, drove some other players nuts who had spent hours just the day before, on that pole
ArPharazonV: it took me 4 hours :-)
VardaValar1: ouch
VardaValar1: What is that event?
ArPharazonV: got a pair of boots, with a twice as high droprate, 13 times...
ArPharazonV: so it was about time I got the pole too ;-)
VardaValar1: ouch : ) Really!
ArPharazonV: yup
ArPharazonV: allright, the Extravaganza:
ArPharazonV: there's a weekly event for fishing people every sunday in Stranglethorn, starting in Booty Bay
ArPharazonV: from 14:00 to 16:00
ArPharazonV: the first to catch 40 special fishes farmed from spots that appear and disappear off the coasts of Stranglethorn every few minutes, wins the contest
VardaValar1: Eowyn says she's seen that, but never had a high enough fishing level (computer next to mine).
ArPharazonV: and gets to choose from a variety of rewards, including the Arcanite Fishing Pole, the best one in the game, with +35 fishing
VardaValar1: Can you team up on that?
ArPharazonV: no idea, we haven't tried it yet
VardaValar1: Might not be quite fair
VardaValar1: The pole sounds incredible though : )
ArPharazonV: there also seem to be special fish you can catch and deliver to a fish-bot
ArPharazonV: which in turn allows you to get special rewards with +fishing
ArPharazonV: in total, you can get about +50/55 fishing without having to use lures
ArPharazonV: which is of course every fishing master's dream ;-)
ArPharazonV: so now that I'm already at 320 fishing, I might give it a few tries
VardaValar1: Go for it! Let us know if you get that rod!
ArPharazonV: I will!
VardaValar1: On to Tolkien now : )
ArPharazonV: and that concludes my weekly report, I think... don't think I missed anything important

VardaValar1: First, how many people are actively here?
ArPharazonV: "aye"
VardaValar1: Thank you, Phar :-)
VardaValar1: aye
VardaValar1: Please type aye if you are actively here
VardaValar1: Think they all went fishing, Phar
Star of Phaet: I'm not really, despite the comment, lol. waiting for gwai to log onto wow.
VardaValar1: Gilraen, are you able to get into Lothar yet? Think we saw you but it looked like instant crashing
VardaValar1: Might have been a guild-friend who has a similar name
VardaValar1: okies, Phar, looks like you and me
ArPharazonV: guess so
VardaValar1: This topic may be appropriate : )
VardaValar1: Fear, as used by Tolkien
VardaValar1: On the evil side, the people are ruled by fear.
VardaValar1: On the other side, people have to conquer their fear
ArPharazonV: like the prisoners from Angband who walk around with Morgoth's shadow
ArPharazonV: like Numenorean kings who are afraid of death and seek to prolong it, thus ending up dying miserably
Star of Phaet: no, it was me, unless there's two instances of it
Star of Phaet: lothar doesn't seem to like me today
VardaValar1: And how powerful beings on Morgoth's side use fear abilities to make minions work and good guys quit
VardaValar1: Not good to hear, Gilraen
Star of Phaet: indeed not
VardaValar1: Eowyn could use another lady present : )
Star of Phaet: I'm on Ysera atm with Gwai, and so far so good.
VardaValar1: Hi to Gwaihir, then : )
VardaValar1: Happy hunting to you both
ArPharazonV: Fladrif gives his greetings, he's going to sleep now
VardaValar1: Good night to Fladrif, the sleepy ent : )
VardaValar1: Good examples, Phar
ArPharazonV: like a lone hobbit among a group of dwarves who braves the dragon's cavern even though afraid
VardaValar1: The good guys have to conquer fears of sacrifice to manage to fight Sauron
VardaValar1: Like a dwarf who goes into the Paths of the Dead although terribly afraid
TH0R0NGIL: Gimli wasn't the only one afraid there, I don't think, whatever the movie may have said
VardaValar1: Like an elf who goes on to help against the Corsairs, believing that a prophecy means he will surely die.
TH0R0NGIL: Remember Halbarad's riders
VardaValar1: Aye, Finrod. Only Legolas was unafraid
VardaValar1: Even Elladan and Elrohir were apparently affected
VardaValar1: They were not fully elven, so the shades of men did frighten them
VardaValar1: They seem to have been around humans so much, that they apparently even chose to be numbered with them in the end
VardaValar1: That had to be a frightening choice too
TH0R0NGIL: Legolas was probably there when those same men were still living, which probably contributed to his not being afraid
VardaValar1: Elladan and Elrohir were much older than Legolas
TH0R0NGIL: Much?
VardaValar1: Legolas was full elf, which probably was a lot of it
VardaValar1: Yes
TH0R0NGIL: They were not born until the second age.
VardaValar1: Legolas was a young elf, not to be confused with Legolas of Gondolin
TH0R0NGIL: No, he wasn't in Gondolin, but I wouldn't call him young..
VardaValar1: Fear seems to be a chief weapon of the evil side
VardaValar1: I think we have today's tangent, Phar ;-)
TH0R0NGIL: *goes to look up Legolas' birthdate
TH0R0NGIL: lol
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: There isn't one, Finrod
VardaValar1: It has to be worked out by inference
ArPharazonV: I know Thranduil did not become king of Mirkwood until the third age... when Oropher perished in the siege of Mordor
VardaValar1: A willingness to make trade-offs, sacrifices, and walk into situations that could harm or kill, marked the good guys
VardaValar1: Ok, if we are tangenting
ArPharazonV: but when Legolas was born, I do not know.. would he have known his grandfather?
VardaValar1: Legolas' age takes a lot of digging to get close
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
ArPharazonV: thought you were tangenting as well
VardaValar1: I can run both threads if needed ;-)
ArPharazonV: but yes, fear was a common weapon of the enemy, one the good guys had to conquer time and time again to win
VardaValar1: That was one thing that forced the good guys to become stronger
ArPharazonV: Beren and Luthien braved their fears when going for the Silmaril
VardaValar1: It beat down the evil guys, but their acting in concert was automatically better
VardaValar1: Aye, even fear of enemies of Sauron, like dear ol' dad : )
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: The good guys often had to operate in small groups or alone, partly because of the fear factor
VardaValar1: If Finrod-(V) just went to look up Legolas' birthdate, he's hitting a big can of worms : )
TH0R0NGIL: Can't find reference at moment, put it on topic list for next week
TH0R0NGIL: I know i've seen it before though
FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: haha... reminds me of my quote 2 weeks ago
VardaValar1: What are you thinking of as a reference, Finrod?
TH0R0NGIL: I've seen it on a timeline
VardaValar1: Aye, you will find it as soon as you sign off : )
ArPharazonV: couldn't find it, after spending the meeting searching, and 3 minutes after closing the pc I found it
TH0R0NGIL: lol, probably
VardaValar1: Timeline in RotK, you're thinking of?
TH0R0NGIL: That's ok, you want topic right?
TH0R0NGIL: no, I looked in the appendices, and it's not there, so I think it was a different one
TH0R0NGIL: and that only goes back as far as the beginning of the 3rd age anyhow
VardaValar1: Legolas' birthday has been the subject of search and speculation by about a zillion people
TH0R0NGIL: we'll see what I can come up with by next week
VardaValar1: It's not actually written anywhere
TH0R0NGIL: you may be right, we'll see
ArPharazonV: oh, I'll look in HoME part 12
VardaValar1: People work it out by inference, so you are going to have to dig
VardaValar1: Thanks Phar
TH0R0NGIL: I will
VardaValar1: I don't have that one, sadly
VardaValar1: RotK Appendix B has the Second Age
TH0R0NGIL: as far as fear goes...Barliman Butterbur comes to mind
TH0R0NGIL: true, but not in much detail
TH0R0NGIL: and mostly just numenor
VardaValar1: 130 SA, Birth of Elladan and Elrohir
TH0R0NGIL: anyhow...if it isn't written, then how to you know Elrond's sons were much older?
VardaValar1: SA 241 Birth of Arwen
VardaValar1: We worked it out by inference : )
TH0R0NGIL: lol, k
VardaValar1: There are two very nice articles by non-Valar that came at the problem in two different ways, similar conclusions
TH0R0NGIL: off topic...are either of you members at Minas Tirith?
TH0R0NGIL: or citizens I should say
VardaValar1: If you'd like to work it out too, without using their articles, it would be interesting
VardaValar1: I've been invited, but did not join
ArPharazonV: seeing as I have no idea what that means, I'm not :-)
VardaValar1: The invitations were from people in different parts of it, gets scattered
VardaValar1: You are a member, Finrod, as Thorongil there?
VardaValar1: Which part of it?
TH0R0NGIL: which part of what?
ArPharazonV: nope, going by the references to Legolas in the index, he does not seems to be in the timelines in HoME 12
VardaValar1: heh, or is that the part? Been a while, if it's the same one I'm thinking of
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar
VardaValar1: I've heard that from others, Phar, but know you're very good at looking up things
VardaValar1: Tried his other names?
VardaValar1: Laiqalasse?
VardaValar1: Legolast?
ArPharazonV: not yet.. I'll see
ArPharazonV: neither name is in the index
VardaValar1: Another way to go at it, is by birthdates of Thranduil and Oropher
VardaValar1: Also, by comments made by Legolas
VardaValar1: Whether it was Oropher or Thranduil who took the House to the Greenwood changes according to story version
ArPharazonV: seeing as Oropher died at the end of the Second Age, I think we can place their birthdates before that :-)
VardaValar1: Oropher's would be before the end of SA : )
TH0R0NGIL: I know he said in Lothlorien that the trees there "made him feel young again", so he was at least "middle aged" or something, according to elvish standards
ArPharazonV: it's quite likely that Thranduil's birthdate is before that as well, seeing as Oropher is his father.... now I'm not sure how long Elvish women are pregnant, but still
VardaValar1: Not quite. He also says he felt young as he had not felt since traveling with the "children" of the Fellowship
VardaValar1: Aragorn is around 87 then
VardaValar1: An elf doesn't finish growing bodily until age 50 or 100
VardaValar1: Being around the Fellowship made him feel older, being around Fangorn made him feel younger
VardaValar1: Fangorn, the Ent, is said by Gandalf to be the oldest living thing, so that leaves a lot of room
TH0R0NGIL: quite
ArPharazonV: makes me wonder if Fangorn is older than Tom :-)
TH0R0NGIL: he couldn't have been alive in the first age though, or any time before the fall of Moria
VardaValar1: Legolas says he's seen oaks grow from acorns to ruinous age, but figure these as the kind in England that JRRT was familiar with
TH0R0NGIL: because he did not know what Durin's Bane was
TH0R0NGIL: or if he was alive at that time, he would have had to be very young
VardaValar1: Tom might not be considered one of the "living things" if he's a Maia
VardaValar1: Legolas was the only member of the Fellowship besides Gandalf to know they were facing a Balrog
VardaValar1: This is from a reference in Letters also
TH0R0NGIL:;f=17;t=000024 possibly interesting reading in reference to Tom...
ArPharazonV: hehe.. Tom Bombadil a hobbit
Star of Phaet: I'm off, past my bedtime... namarie, folks
TH0R0NGIL: lol...we get all types
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Star of Phaet has left the room.
TH0R0NGIL: it is a city, after all
ArPharazonV: I think Tom Bombadil's a "cameo" as they call it :-)
ArPharazonV: a person with no direct origin tied in what we know of the world we're reading of, but showing up from another tale for a "minor" appearance...
TH0R0NGIL: heh, something like that
ArPharazonV: after all, I think Bombadil's book was before Lotr? or not?
TH0R0NGIL: I think it was kind of during...
TH0R0NGIL: more of various writings and songs that weren't at first intended to be a book of their own
ArPharazonV: same goes for hobbits, though, who were never really meant to exist in the world of the Silmarillion, I guess, with the Hobbit only having slight ties to the existing Silmarillion
TH0R0NGIL: true
ArPharazonV: it was not until he combined them in Lord of the Rings that Hobbits became a true part of Middle-earth
VardaValar1: back
ArPharazonV: same could go for Bombadil, although he hasn't really been integrated as much as the Hobbits have
TH0R0NGIL: hm...possibly
VardaValar1: Aye, Tom was lifted from an earlier story, because JRRT thought the Hobbits needed an adventure right about in that spot in the story.
TH0R0NGIL: although I think he was always intended to be a part of ME
ArPharazonV: just another "foreign element" Tolkien decided to introduce because it fit the story at that time
VardaValar1: The Hobbits and the Sil started tangling together in the Hobbit, because JRRT couldn't keep the Sil out of his mind.
ArPharazonV: without really tying in the general history
TH0R0NGIL: I expect Tolkien probably knew a lot more about Tom than we do
VardaValar1: Surely so, Finrod : )
VardaValar1: Tom can be made to fit into M-e neatly if he's thought of as a Maia
TH0R0NGIL: He probably had a lot of ties and such in his mind about how Tom fit in, just never got around to writing it down
VardaValar1: Goldberry is the really tough one to pin down
VardaValar1: Tom refers to a time when her heart was beating, as if later it was not
TH0R0NGIL: eh...I'd say she is easier than Tom
VardaValar1: Daughter of the river
TH0R0NGIL: she was a water nymph
ArPharazonV: a nymph? as in, Maia?
VardaValar1: River-woman's daughter
TH0R0NGIL: possibly an actual daughter of Ulmo, and some spirit of the river
VardaValar1: So what is a river-woman? A Maia of Aule?
VardaValar1: Ulmo wasn't married
ArPharazonV: it is known for Maiar to have children...
TH0R0NGIL: True......
VardaValar1: The Valar did not have children
ArPharazonV: no
VardaValar1: Now the Maia did have children
TH0R0NGIL: yes
ArPharazonV: did Maiar have children among themselves?
ArPharazonV: or just with other races?
VardaValar1: None mentioned, Phar
TH0R0NGIL: I don't think any are mentioned, but possibly
VardaValar1: Melian had a child with the Elf, Thingol
TH0R0NGIL: More than one
TH0R0NGIL: 2 actually
TH0R0NGIL: or 3
VardaValar1: So that's a known example
TH0R0NGIL: yes
VardaValar1: We also know Maiar and sometimes Valar traveled in M-e
ArPharazonV: it could be that Maiar among themselves can't have children, but it's just that bit more bodily factor that Elves or Humans add that makes it possible for them to have children with these
ArPharazonV: if you get what I mean
VardaValar1: Aye, there's more body to work with, permanent type
ArPharazonV: if that is the case...
VardaValar1: Bodies are just clothing for the Ainur normally
ArPharazonV: and Goldberry is the daughter of a Maia...
TH0R0NGIL: well, all the maiar are never listed, so who is to say they didn't have children amongst themselves?
ArPharazonV: then who is the other parent?
TH0R0NGIL: after all, the mortal races would never know anything about it
VardaValar1: We can only speculate if Maiar had children among themselves but we know for sure they did with Elves
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar
TH0R0NGIL: Goldberry could easily have been the daughter of 2 maiar
VardaValar1: River-woman's daughter. River-woman, a Maia of Ulmo
TH0R0NGIL: Which would explain why it is hard for mortals to account for her
ArPharazonV: she might as well have been a child of Osse and Uinen for all we know
VardaValar1: There is a completely different explanation available to play with. A type of Rusalka
TH0R0NGIL: Who knows, Tom could have even been her father...
ArPharazonV: (are those the final forms? can't tell anymore with BoLT cutting through my memory)
TH0R0NGIL: There are lots of possibilities
VardaValar1: I hope Tom wasn't her father. Makes it kind of icky : )
TH0R0NGIL: what, for them to live together? no one ever said they were married or anything
ArPharazonV: why? what do we know of the relationship between Tom and Goldberry?
VardaValar1: k
TH0R0NGIL: exactly
TH0R0NGIL: They did have separate rooms
ArPharazonV: has Tom ever expressed a romantic interest in Goldberry?
VardaValar1: But still, the thought of Goldberry's heart beating at one time but not later, could mean she was a rusalka
TH0R0NGIL: who said it wasn't beating later?
VardaValar1: Tom implies it
TH0R0NGIL: Tom said it was when he found her...
TH0R0NGIL: but I don't see how that implies that it ever stopped
VardaValar1: Why mention that her heart was beating?
TH0R0NGIL: it rhymed
VardaValar1: heh
TH0R0NGIL: and the water lillies didn't have beating hearts
TH0R0NGIL: she was something alive...
VardaValar1: A rusalka could've been created by drowning in the river, and if the river held a Maia of Ulmo, a river-woman
VardaValar1: that could explain why she is a benign version of a rusalka
TH0R0NGIL: perhaps..........
ArPharazonV: what's a rusalka?
ArPharazonV: some kind of wandering spirit or something?
VardaValar1: Russian folklore
VardaValar1: The spirit of a drowned woman, who manifests around the river where she drowned
TH0R0NGIL: I don't know how much Tolkien would have used Russian folklore...
TH0R0NGIL: he was more into Nordic and Saxon
VardaValar1: It's reaching, Finrod, just like you guys are doing : )
ArPharazonV: as I said earlier, a foreign element :-)
VardaValar1: The idea of the drowned woman spirit is all over, not just Russian
TH0R0NGIL: true.......
VardaValar1: I'm just more familiar with the Russian version of it, and am using that terminology
TH0R0NGIL: that seems somewhat morbid though..and Goldberry was anything but morbid
ArPharazonV: "sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating"
VardaValar1: Thanks for the quote, Phar
ArPharazonV: if we take that to mean her heart isn't beating later, it would also mean she doesn't sing so sweet anymore ;-)
TH0R0NGIL: slender as a willow wand, clearer than clear water...
VardaValar1: The rusalka were beautiful
VardaValar1: Tom may have known her when she was alive, and cared for her spirit after the drowning
TH0R0NGIL: true Phar...and her singing had certainly not dissipated
VardaValar1: True about the singing
VardaValar1: I don't think you disproved the rusalka angle, but we can drop it
VardaValar1: I'm the only one I know of who ever mentions it
ArPharazonV: sorry, not too familiar with Russian mythology :-)
VardaValar1: So you guys want to call Goldberry Tom's daughter then? : )
VardaValar1: Looking for a conclusion to the topic, if any : )
ArPharazonV: it could be a possibility
VardaValar1: Aye, it really could
ArPharazonV: certainly puts a new spin on the chapter
VardaValar1: It does indeed
TH0R0NGIL: that's kind of what I've always thought...although I don't think it is provable
ArPharazonV: but he only first found her when she was young at the river.... so he must not have known of her existence before then?
TH0R0NGIL: perhaps, perhaps not
TH0R0NGIL: It is a little hard sometimes to decipher his songs
VardaValar1: He doesn't have to be all-knowing
ArPharazonV: it puts to thought the kind of relationship he must have had with the "river-woman" if Goldberry was their daughter and he didn't know it at first
TH0R0NGIL: hehe...true that
ArPharazonV: but heck, let's not get into that
TH0R0NGIL: besides, he could have known it from the first, perhaps she didn't know it
VardaValar1: JRRT dropped the idea of Valar having children
TH0R0NGIL: who knows...
VardaValar1: Maiar are never mentioned as having children between themselves
VardaValar1: No one
VardaValar1: If we want absolutes, we are in the wrong terrain here : )
ArPharazonV: aye.. but speculation is all we have, so we might as well do lots of it :-)
ArPharazonV: indeed, Varda
VardaValar1: So what reasonable speculations do we have?
TH0R0NGIL: true about the maiar, but if they did have children amongst themselves, it still would not be in any histories
VardaValar1: Goldberry is a Maia, daughter of two Maiar
ArPharazonV: sorry if I'm afk on occasion, btw, I found a site with a complete Garfield-archive from 1978 until today... it's funny...
TH0R0NGIL: lol
VardaValar1: Goldberry is a Maia, daughter of the River-woman and Tom
VardaValar1: cool, url?
VardaValar1: Goldberry is a Rusalka
ArPharazonV: hives.html
VardaValar1: Thanks
ArPharazonV: of course, reachable from
VardaValar1: Here's one of the spots with a Legolas age speculation, scroll down:
VardaValar1: I was afking there a bit ; )
VardaValar1: This is one of the very good speculations, backed up quite nicely
VardaValar1: Here's another:
VardaValar1: 36517
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: I think we all wandered off reading. : )
ArPharazonV: haha
VardaValar1: Should I declare After-meeting and let you sleep, Phar? : )
ArPharazonV: I'm at may 1980 now.. 5 years before I was born... I have the feeling it's going to take me years just to get to today ;-)
VardaValar1: Nice to think there's something left to read
VardaValar1: I'm in the Tolkien stuff, so you must be in the Garfield? : )
ArPharazonV: yup :-)
VardaValar1: Ok, then I declare After-meeting!
VardaValar1: *bangs gavel*
VardaValar1: *tink*

ArPharazonV: but as for sleep, I have no actual college anymore
ArPharazonV: so I'll probably stay up for at least 90 minutes more
VardaValar1: off to WoW? : )
ArPharazonV: probably, aye... not sure what my plan is in there, though... farming money, spending it in the AH for my next Feralheart quest...
ArPharazonV: or just continuing with my lvl 16 rogue...
ArPharazonV: rogues are so much fun to level
ArPharazonV: especially when I'm a cute little gnome rogue ;-)
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: I have a cute little gnome mage girl
ArPharazonV: also fun
ArPharazonV: I was thinking of roleplaying the psychotic killer with this one... big swords, tons of damage, and improved sneaking
ArPharazonV: should be fun on a gnome
VardaValar1: I seem to be playing a glass cannon
VardaValar1: All hit, no defense
ArPharazonV: I also have a gnome warrior, who's probably going to end up looking like a big ball of plate armor
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: the problem of the mage
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: "a big ball of plate armor"
VardaValar1: My 60 hunter seems to have the best of all possible lives : )
ArPharazonV: oh, I still thoroughly enjoy being the only feral druid in my raidgroup
VardaValar1: But the priest is fun, got to 44 and found out people want the priest to be dwarven, not elven, for Fear Ward, a bit late
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: my priest is Dwarven too.. he's my only dwarf
ArPharazonV: elf, human, gnome, human, elf, gnome, gnome, dwarf
VardaValar1: I only get 4 slots to play with, not the usual 10, since sharing on two accounts
VardaValar1: Don't want to start over, gahh
ArPharazonV: my third gnome is a warlock... wonder how she will look with those big warlock pets
ArPharazonV: only 4 slots, eh? that's a shame, in a way... no way you'll be able to play all classes
ArPharazonV: unless, of course, you take up action on other servers too
VardaValar1: not on Lothar, aye
VardaValar1: I tried out a few on other servers, then deleted them
ArPharazonV: benefit of being the only one in the house who plays computer games ;-)
VardaValar1: nice : )
VardaValar1: 5 of us
ArPharazonV: oh, btw, one more thing
VardaValar1: ?
ArPharazonV: my brother came home this week from England, for a short time
VardaValar1: Oh cool!
ArPharazonV: he let me know he has seen all Lotr-movies in England, and likes them
VardaValar1: Good taste : )
ArPharazonV: somewhere in the next week we're going to watch all 3 movies again here
ArPharazonV: with luck, I'll get him into the books too, and maybe more ;-)
VardaValar1: That would be great : )
VardaValar1: It's fun to have someone in the house and buddies who are Tolkien fans and refer to it, get into discussions
ArPharazonV: yup
VardaValar1: I sometimes think our family and friends get more talking than the guild does in chat ;-)
ArPharazonV: so far it's only Fladrif mostly, but with him being in Sweden for a while, that's not helping ;-)
VardaValar1: When's he supposed to be back?
ArPharazonV: good question
ArPharazonV: probably in a few months, but not sure
VardaValar1: Should be Valandil and Aragorn in WoW Europe too
ArPharazonV: he's missing both our birthdays though, which we mostly celebrate together, since they're only 4 days apart, in the beginning of May
VardaValar1: Be nice if they could show up even a few minutes in meetings to just let themselves be known here
VardaValar1: You'll have to mail him a care-package so he won't feel so separated : )
ArPharazonV: oh, his girlfriend, a good friend of mine, is going to visit him
ArPharazonV: which practically leaves me being the one seperated ;-)
VardaValar1: Make you feel less separated
ArPharazonV: but it's ok, I'll probably celebrate my birthday on the dance-school this year, always fun
VardaValar1: Oh, Aragorn used to be Haldir, as I understand it, and is a real-life friend of Beleg-ex. Wonder if Beleg-ex plays WoW
VardaValar1: Sounds like a blast, Phar : )
ArPharazonV: yup
ArPharazonV: ga800525.gif
VardaValar1: After the chat starts, I tend not to catch people coming on
VardaValar1: could use help with that
VardaValar1: So many of them can't figure how to get here on their own steam
ArPharazonV: ah, ok, I'll keep my eye out
ArPharazonV: but my lists seem to be a little out of date
VardaValar1: Chat's over, but your help on future meetings would be great : )
VardaValar1: Narthais/Idril just came on is what made me think of it
VardaValar1: I think mine might be too, which could be bad news
ArPharazonV: not sure if they're guests or members, people we actually want to keep away, or I'm just missing people who joined more recently
VardaValar1: QuickAIM page help any?
ArPharazonV: also, I tend to have AIM on for so long, I hardly ever notice people coming online anymore
VardaValar1: Just notice during chat ;-)
VardaValar1: I get declines a good bit as the chat goes along
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: from people invited at the beginning
VardaValar1: They finally notice the invitation and decline
ArPharazonV: yup, happened to me too last week
VardaValar1: Every week for me
ArPharazonV: I mostly leave the invites to you and Eonwe, but seeing as I was the chatroom-starter last week, I thought it would be useful for me to do it for once ;-)
VardaValar1: Thanks : )
Oessala: Need another ship name.. shipclass is 'Jaguar'
Oessala: I can't think of any cats of any variety in LotR..
VardaValar1: Tevildo
ArPharazonV: aye, Tevildo
ArPharazonV: when my hunter tames Bangalash, I'll surely rename it Tevildo
VardaValar1: Sauron's name when he was originally created as a great cat
VardaValar1: The cats of Queen Beruthiel
VardaValar1: Could call the ship the Beruthiel
Oessala: Sauron or Beruthiel...
Oessala: not exactly the most, er, honroable options
Oessala: But hen, I am a professional wealth redistributor.
VardaValar1: There is that : )
Oessala: so...sauro it is.
VardaValar1: Beruthiel's not so bad : )
ArPharazonV: Beruthiel's nice
VardaValar1: Sauron was good, once
ArPharazonV: under that same name?
VardaValar1: Not as Tevildo, no : )
ArPharazonV: no, I mean
ArPharazonV: did he have another name under Aule?
ArPharazonV: before he turned?
VardaValar1: hmm, think they mainly called him Sauron
VardaValar1: Interesting thought
ArPharazonV: was Annatar one of the names he used in his form of deceit?
ArPharazonV: or did he have it before?
VardaValar1: That was for deceit
VardaValar1: "giver of gifts"
ArPharazonV: saved
VardaValar1: Thank you
VardaValar1: Namarie : )
ArPharazonV: sent
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
ArPharazonV has left the room.