Valar Guild

April 16, 2006 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT - 5); (GMT = 23:00)
AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace

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Transcript work by: 
Ar-Pharazon-(V), Eonwe-(Valar), and Varda-(Valar)

Attending (12)
    Members: ArPharazonV, ArwenV1, Eonwe Valar, Finrod-(V)/TH0R0NGIL, Gil-galad-(V)/Xseanzee disco, Gilraen-(V)/Star of Phaet, GwaihirValar, Haleth V, FarmerMaggot-(V), OrodrethV/Oessala, VardaValar1
    Guest: Srekal86

Before-meeting
Meeting begins
Membership
Web
    Encyc, programming, search script
Gaming
    LotRO - report by Eonwe
    New open source game - report by Fladrif
    WoW - reports by Eonwe, Varda, Ar-Pharazon
    Rayman 2 - report by
    Supertux - mention by
Tolkien
    The Hero's Reward.
After-meeting
Official After-meeting

Before-meeting:
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
FladrifV has entered the room.
Orodreth V has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: heya
FladrifV: Aiya
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Guten Abend
Eonwe Valar: Happy Easter! :}
FladrifV: milions of egs egs for free.....
Eonwe Valar: And chocolate bunnies :} can't forget them :}
Eonwe Valar: A couple more minutes and we'll go ahead and begin. Anyone not in by then will just have to catch up :}
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: just came from a Zul'Gurub
Eonwe Valar: heya
Eonwe Valar: congrats
Eonwe Valar: we'll be starting shortly
Eonwe Valar: and Happy Easter :}
ArPharazonV: Wushoolay's Mane! Just 2 items away from my Druidy charm
ArPharazonV: Happy Easter to you too!
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: heya :}
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
Eonwe Valar: We'll begin shortly :}
Eonwe Valar: and Happy Easter :}
VardaValar1: Happpppy Easter!
Srekal86 has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Heya :}
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
Oessala has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Beginning shortly, and Happy Easter :}
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
Star of Phaet: Goodness, that time already?
VardaValar1: Sneaks up : )
VardaValar1: It's been a beautiful and busy day here
VardaValar1: Hope it went as well for you all :-)
Eonwe Valar: Got plenty of candy :}
Eonwe Valar: And aye, it's nice weather here too, though a few degrees to warm next to my computer :}
Eonwe Valar: Taking roll :}
VardaValar1: Have to get an iced tea!
Eonwe Valar: Heh, you just reminded me I have a container of instant tea sitting somewhere in my kitchen.. :}
VardaValar1: Short break for Eonwe's tea!
VardaValar1: What should we say while he's out....?
FladrifV: its here 5 degrees celsius :-)
Star of Phaet: we could whisper furtively, and look oddly at Eonwe when he returns ;-)
VardaValar1: heheh
VardaValar1: We're guessing about 85 Fahrenheit here
FladrifV: -32 /9 or something?
VardaValar1: Iced tea weather ;-)
VardaValar1: Sunny, with a few fluffy clouds and lots of cheer
VardaValar1: What did we catch everyone in the middle of? : )
FladrifV: ah 30 degrees celsius
FladrifV: that is a lot
ArPharazonV: yes, it is.... we're keeping the house at about 18-19 at this time
VardaValar1: The roses have grown crazy blooming, butterflies all over
FladrifV: here 40 farenheit
ArPharazonV: you caught me in the middle of a Zul'Gurub, that's what ye did!
Eonwe Valar: Ok, back with my tea :}
VardaValar1: Maybe you should go with hot chocolate, Fladrif
VardaValar1: Oh good! You needed a good rescue!
FladrifV: hehe good idea
FladrifV: lets see if the university shop is still open ;-)
Eonwe Valar: And roll taken :}
ArPharazonV: well, it was allright... I had just spend all my dkp anyway ;-)
Eonwe Valar: ok, we all ready to begin? :}
ArPharazonV: *spent
VardaValar1: Aye! Are you gaveling, good buddy?
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
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Eonwe Valar: Elenn Sila Lumenn Omentielvo!
Eonwe Valar: Happy Easter all! :}
Eonwe Valar: Membership:
Eonwe Valar: You're all present and accounted for :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other membership news?
VardaValar1: Yes
VardaValar1: Fangorn and Eowyn and Sauron and Bilbo say hi!
Eonwe Valar: Take the floor, Varda :}
Eonwe Valar: Heya to Fangorn, Eowyn, Sauron, and Bilbo! :}
VardaValar1: Elwing went home, but she left still another chapter for a story I'm betaing to pass on to you guys, pretty long
VardaValar1: Hi from Gimli who was here Friday
VardaValar1: And Fangorn sent a microphone headset to Merry, which he doesn't know about yet, so he can use Ventrilo better
VardaValar1: That's all from here. Take it away, Eonwe!
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Varda :}
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Eonwe Valar: Web news:
Eonwe Valar: Nothing new on the Games Page.... yet :}
Eonwe Valar: Anyone have web news?
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: You knew I would ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, should've just called you :}
Eonwe Valar: Your floor :}
VardaValar1: The Encyc is being separated into separate pages so we can do better navigation techniques
VardaValar1: We are on the last and possibly worst page of separation now, since it links to itself all over for the King's heirs for different kingships
VardaValar1: But then we should be able to do a proper A-Z navigation, plus play with php and css
VardaValar1: Anyone interested in helping work with php and css let me know, as I know nearly nothing
VardaValar1: Eonwe has been figuruing out some cool stuff but we're still in the planning stage and could use help of all sorts
VardaValar1: My email is always open!
VardaValar1: *floor waxed* Back to Eonwe!
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other web news?
Eonwe Valar: I'm working on a Search script for the Encyclopedia already :}
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Eonwe Valar: Ok, Gaming :} :
Eonwe Valar: LotrO: New location up on their page :} Check it out :}
Eonwe Valar: Fladrif tells me he found a new opensource game. Would you like to describe it, Fladrif?
FladrifV: yes sure
FladrifV: I found another opensource game at http://www.nexuiz.com/ its the First first person shooter that is completely free and online playable
FladrifV: its in a stable state and its running
FladrifV: and you can always make a mod to make it more fitting in the tolkien world ;-)
ArPharazonV: like BZFlag but then in humanoid form? ;-)
FladrifV: oh its 200 mb and it runs on every os
FladrifV: its based on quake 1 engine
FladrifV: so far my information thanks Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Thank you :}
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: Feast of Noblegarden going on.
Eonwe Valar: Lothar: I apologize for not being in there Friday night, but had to take care of some stuff for next sememster.
Eonwe Valar: Well, I popped in late in the evening, but that doesn't really count :}
Eonwe Valar: Is there a Lothar report for this week?
VardaValar1: Sauron and Bilbo were on the run
VardaValar1: Bilbo's not home, but I'll see if Sauron's still around
Srekal86 has left the room.
Srekal86 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Nope, his car is gone too
VardaValar1: Sorry, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Ok np.
VardaValar1: Let it be known they did game though : )
Eonwe Valar: Anything from the European Valar Guild members?
Eonwe Valar: Duly noted :}
ArPharazonV: not much... didn't see any other valarguildmembers... someone spotted a lvl 10 aragorrn, but chances are quite small it was the one we're looking for ;-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Scouting time! : )
ArPharazonV: raiding was slow this week... we did a few bits of MC, failed to take down the final boss of Nefarian... and I joined some randomly scheduled 20-man raids
ArPharazonV: *of Blackwing Lair, Nefarian
ArPharazonV: I'm questing a bit to get my Feralheart set, but other than that it's a huge money-sink, there's not much to tell
VardaValar1: Is it worth the money?
ArPharazonV: for a collector like me, it is... and for a feral druid like me, it's one of the best soloing sets out there
ArPharazonV: oh, I got revered reputation with Argent Dawn this week
VardaValar1: Nice! You've been workign
ArPharazonV: was at 11800 out of 12000 for months, and finally ran through Scholomance again ;-)
ArPharazonV: gonna start finding groups for Lower Blackrock Spire next week
ArPharazonV: those 5 quests have been sitting in my log for a long time, and one of the rewards is a quite good healing cloak
ArPharazonV: so I have been working... and I will remain working ;-)
ArPharazonV: so that's it, basically
ArPharazonV: we got Skeram, first boss of Ahn'Qiraj
ArPharazonV: but that might have been last week, and I might have told it already
ArPharazonV: so now I have the quests in my log for my dream-classset, the Genesis Raiment
ArPharazonV: it'll be quite a while before we're strong enough to gather the pieces for it, though ;-)
ArPharazonV: so the future's all planned and ready to go ;-)
ArPharazonV: WoW these next few months should be fun!
ArPharazonV: *passes gavel*
Eonwe Valar: How'd you get the gavel without me seeing!
Eonwe Valar: :}
ArPharazonV: wouldn't you like to know!
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other gaming news?
ArPharazonV: finished lvl 10 of Rayman 2 today!
ArPharazonV: my planned schedule for 1 level a day is working fine, and this was the longest level in the game...
FladrifV: almost done with supertux.....
ArPharazonV: 18 levels there are, so in a bit more than a week that's one more of my gaming-plans completed..
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: I've been playing the game of Life :} I critted an Algorithms test for 88 :}
Haleth V has entered the room.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Vengeance activated and I SoC hit a program for 100 :}
Haleth V: Aiya :-)
GwaihirValar: hullo :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya :}
VardaValar1: Aiya!
Eonwe Valar: You came in during Gaming :} Have either of you two been playing a game?
ArPharazonV: Aiya both!
Haleth V: not enough time, I'm afraid =P
VardaValar1: Tail end of Gaming : )
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Eonwe Valar: Ok, then on to Tolkien :}
Eonwe Valar: Varda has a topic :}
Eonwe Valar: And Happy Easter you two :}
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe
Haleth V: thanks, Eonwe :-)
VardaValar1: If anyone else has a Tolkien topic, please let Eonwe know, as he's chair today
VardaValar1: What is the Hero's Reward? In Tolkien, of course?
VardaValar1: He does not use such a term, but there still seems to be a hero's reward.
Haleth V: Do you mean like in Beowulf and other epics like that?
ArPharazonV: for one a reunited kingdom and the love of his life... for another 130+ years of life and a trip to Valinor
VardaValar1: I mean in Tolkien's work
Haleth V: but the term "Hero's Reward" as applied to epics like that?
ArPharazonV: for yet another, the chance to settle down in his peaceful and protected homeland once again, knowing he'll face a beautiful and quiet future
VardaValar1: I'm not sure how you are applying it to those. Could you say, Haleth?
Haleth V: Sorry if I'm confusing everyone, I'm just trying to define the word "Hero's Reward."
Haleth V: Do you mean intangible rewards or more physical ones, such as gold, etc.?
VardaValar1: Any kind : ) Depends on what the hero sees as a reward
VardaValar1: Gimli became rich with much gold, yet it did not control him as it flowed through his fingers
Haleth V: Well, most of the time, it seemed to be intangible rewards - safety, peace for everyone, etc.
VardaValar1: His reward might be considered there as not being controlled by his gold, as other dwarves were
VardaValar1: How about the marks the heroes left on their world?
VardaValar1: There are many types of rewards for the heroes. I was hoping to hit all of them : )
ArPharazonV: the defeat of ancient evils, making the world just a bit better a place to live in ;-)
Haleth V: Well, looking at Frodo, his lasting mark was peace and preserving innocence, which I feel he accomplished pretty well. =)
VardaValar1: Aye, Frodo allowed everyone to live in a world not controlled by Sauron
VardaValar1: That was a reward for him as well
Haleth V: Right. I think that seeing the life that would have otherwise been destroyed was reward enough for him.
VardaValar1: Saving the Shire also meant he could live in Bag End cared for by Sam and Rosie
VardaValar1: Frodo also gained great honor with the wise and was allowed to go to Valinor to heal and be happy
Haleth V: Although I don't think that was one of his main reasons when he tried to save the world.
Haleth V: It was more like an incidental reward.
VardaValar1: Rewards were generally unlooked for
VardaValar1: They weren't doing it for rewards except their mark on the world, helping it
Haleth V: Well, I think you could argue that point.
VardaValar1: That is pretty much what I was thinking of as the Hero's Reward, their mark
VardaValar1: Fire : )
Haleth V: One of Frodo's rewards were seeing people alive and well, and I think that was one he was looking for. =)
VardaValar1: That would be his mark on the world, his reward for his efforts, aye
Haleth V: Right, which you could argue he was trying to accomplish.
VardaValar1: The incidentals can come along with the mark
Haleth V: It was a selfless reward and selfless reason to fight against evil.
VardaValar1: His reaching the accomplishment was a reward, aye
Haleth V: Right.
VardaValar1: That is a lot of the definition of a hero, putting aside himself long enough to do something worthwhile
ArPharazonV: there are also examples where incidental rewards were ignored in order to do the heroic thing
VardaValar1: Putting oneself too far to the side can be dangerous, as then there is no reason to do anything
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar
VardaValar1: Can you name one/
VardaValar1: ?
ArPharazonV: Bilbo taking the Arkenstone to resolve the conflict at Erebor instead of sneaking off with his 1/14th of the treasure ;-)
VardaValar1: Very good! Perfect example
VardaValar1: What was Bilbo's reward?
Haleth V: Seeing peace, isn't it?
VardaValar1: Aye : )
ArPharazonV: seeing peace, yes... probably staying the conflict long enough for the 3 sides to join up against the goblins and wargs
Haleth V: and having the sense of satisfaction that he did make a lasting difference on the world in a good way.
VardaValar1: They also got rid of the power of the orcs for a long time
ArPharazonV: and of course he went off with more gold than he could carry, in the end...
Haleth V: hehe
Haleth V: but that was another one of those incidental rewards.
ArPharazonV: but incidental at best!
VardaValar1: Incidental reward : )
ArPharazonV: right
VardaValar1: Aye, but also a hero's reward
Eonwe Valar: Haleth has a topic relavent to the current one that I'd like to have her interject.
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Haleth.
Haleth V: I'm just wondering how a hero is defined in Tolkien.
Haleth V: As in what's the definition of a hero. =P
VardaValar1: Can you name one hero in Tolkien? Say in LotR?
Haleth V: Gandalf, Frodo, Sam, Aragorn...
Haleth V: Wouldn't all of them be considered heroes?
VardaValar1: How are you defining them as heroes?
VardaValar1: No one here would argue that they are heroes. Why do we consider them to be so?
Eonwe Valar: Why? What separates them from Bill Ferny or even Barliman Butterbur?
Haleth V: Right, so I'm wondering what everyone's definition of a hero is.
Haleth V: I'm pretty sure that we'd all differ in some areas.
VardaValar1: Is one on that list "more heroic" in your opinion than the others? Are all equally heroic?
FarmerMaggotV has entered the room.
Haleth V: Not really.
VardaValar1: Aiya Farmer : )
Haleth V: Each one was a hero in his own way.
VardaValar1: And what made all of them heroes, although their types of heroism were different?
ArPharazonV: there are different types of heroes... if a hero fails in what he's trying to accomplish, is he still a hero?
VardaValar1: There was common ground
VardaValar1: Is it the attempt or only if they win?
Haleth V: Attempt as well.
Haleth V: If you look at real life examples, the people during 9/11 are perfect examples.
VardaValar1: So all of them had to at least attempt something important?
Haleth V: Well, then you'd have to define important.
VardaValar1: This is Tolkien, but the firemen thought they were doing something important trying to save people
Haleth V: Right, which I agree with.
VardaValar1: Weren't all those heroes you mentioned saving others?
Haleth V: Yes.
VardaValar1: or trying to?
Haleth V: What I would define a hero as is someone who tried to make a lasting mark on the world for the betterment of other people.
Eonwe Valar: Was Boromir's coming to Merry and Pippin's rescue important?
Eonwe Valar: Was Tom coming to the Hobbits' rescue important?
Haleth V: Definitely. Even if he failed to save them from capture, the trying was the important part.
Haleth V: Or so I believe.
Haleth V: Just wondering how everyone else felt =)
VardaValar1: The atttempt at a heroic act, although doomed, is heroic. Very Nordic too : )
ArPharazonV: was Tom Bombadil a hero? Does the deed have to be a challenge for the one doing it before he becomes a hero?
Haleth V: Quite.
Eonwe Valar: Sam wasn't trying to make a lasting mark on the world, only to help Frodo. Does he qualify as a hero?
Haleth V: Well, scratch world then.
Haleth V: Although it's usually for a large amount of people, even if it's only for one person, it still makes him a hero.
VardaValar1: Sam saw that Frodo was doing something that needed doing, and took up the Ring to do it himself when he believed Frodo to be dead.
VardaValar1: One person is enough, aye : )
Eonwe Valar: I would argue Frodo and Bilbo weren't trying to make a mark on the world either :}
Haleth V: I guess that the real definition is that all of them were moved by love for people (one person or entire nations) to attempt to save them.
VardaValar1: Besides, if one person is saved, he might save many others.
Haleth V: Right.
VardaValar1: Frodo was having to keep his deed secret and expected to die in the attempt
ArPharazonV: yet he still attempted it, because he knew it was the right thing to be done
VardaValar1: Frodo didn't even know if it were possible, but he had to try.
Haleth V: I'm going to make the argument that all the heroes in Tolkien were moved by love.
VardaValar1: There was no other hope but that.
ArPharazonV: not like he had a choice anyway... giving up would have brought just as bad an end
VardaValar1: Gollum. Could he be considered a hero or merely selfish?
Haleth V: Not a hero.
Haleth V: Although his action did save many people, it wasn't through conscious choice.
VardaValar1: Giving up might have been less effort for Frodo, just putter at Bag End until it was gone.
VardaValar1: I agree. Gollum was not a hero except by accident.
Haleth V: Right.
ArPharazonV: less effort, yes, but just as bad a result
VardaValar1: That helps us with our definition
Eonwe Valar: How about Lobelia?
VardaValar1: Frodo could have lived comfortably a long time.
Haleth V: Lobelia? Towards the end, I think she was kind of an ambiguous hero.
VardaValar1: Lobelia, heroic defiance or just her usual behavior towards everyone?
ArPharazonV: yet he knew it would not last, with Sauron waging war on Middle-Earth... and it would doom the rest of the world as well
Haleth V: We don't hear enough of Lobelia's motives to really judge her as a hero/not a hero.
VardaValar1: Frodo could look forward to much time of personal comfort
Eonwe Valar: The Shire didn't care either way. They cheered her on when she emerged from her cell.
VardaValar1: Lobelia was willing to stand up to the Ruffians when others were not.
VardaValar1: She gave back Bag End to Frodo, giving him a hero's reward
ArPharazonV: Lobelia was courageous for sure... but heroic?
VardaValar1: of the incidental type
Eonwe Valar: Not every hero tries to be a hero :}
Haleth V: Frodo's a perfect example =)
VardaValar1: Compared to the other hobbits who would not lift a word against the invaders, perhaps?
ArPharazonV: couldn't Gollum then count as the same thing? ;-)
VardaValar1: Nope
Haleth V: Nope.
VardaValar1: Gollum was out for himself only
Eonwe Valar: Gollum wasn't doing what he knew to be right :} He was doing what he wanted to without consideration of others.
VardaValar1: What Eonwe said : )
Haleth V: ^^ Ditto ^^
ArPharazonV: and Lobelia was doing what she knew to be right? hmm... I have to reread that part again
VardaValar1: We are unsure if Lobelia was only out for Lobelia, so I'll agree with ambiguous.
ArPharazonV: what exactly was Lobelia doing again?
Haleth V: fighting against the Ruffians.
VardaValar1: She might have been, or might have just been defying the Ruffians same as she would anyone.
Eonwe Valar: Otherwise Gollum would've been saying "Fat Hobbit! Toss the Masster into the Fire with the Ring if he won't be parted!" Well maybe not :}
Haleth V: Hit one with an umbrella, I believe. =P
VardaValar1: Beware of hobbits with cooking pans and umbrellas.
Haleth V: hehe
Eonwe Valar: So that's why it took Sam going to Mordor to get the courage to ask Rosie to marry him.... :}
Eonwe Valar: I kid :}
VardaValar1: So we are defining a hero as doing something for others on purpose?
Haleth V: And out of love.
VardaValar1: Aye, Sam had to grow to ask Rosie to marry him. : )
Haleth V: I think that's one of the key concepts in Tolkien's definition of a hero.
VardaValar1: What else would you suggest, Haleth?
ArPharazonV: how about an Orc working for Sauron out of loyalty instead of fear?
VardaValar1: Know any?
Haleth V: That'd be more like a Gothic hero.
ArPharazonV: Sauron working for Morgoth?
Haleth V: Not love, more like desire for power.
VardaValar1: Can a group be considered a hero? Or only to made up of heroes, such as the Fellowship? This is kind of like the idea of a company taking on a life of its own.
Haleth V: I think so.
ArPharazonV: then why did he attempt to serve Morgoth even after Morgoth was banned to the Void?
Haleth V: the Istari could be heroes then as well.
Haleth V: It wasn't really serving Morgoth, was it?
ArPharazonV: working in his name, trying to get Pharazon to worship Morgoth?
ArPharazonV: for example?
Haleth V: I'd define it as building his own power or fear of Morgoth.
VardaValar1: Sauron had heroic aspects, but he wasn't really working for the betterment of the world
Haleth V: It's self-love.
ArPharazonV: yes, Varda, and that seems a crucial part to be added to the definition above ;-)
VardaValar1: Sauron admired Morgoth deeply
Eonwe Valar: Sauron admired power deeply :}
VardaValar1: Phar, can you summarize what we have for the hero definition so far?
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe. Sauron thought Morgoth's power was greater than Manwe's. After all, Morgoth said so.
VardaValar1: For a time, it was true.
ArPharazonV: let's see... moved by love, doing something for others, on purpose...
VardaValar1: for the betterment of others
Haleth V: Sounds good =)
ArPharazonV: yes
VardaValar1: The actions of our heroes after the war showed a lot of their continuing desire for betterment too. They continued to be heroes of the "peace".
ArPharazonV: for the betterment of others or of the world in general... which usually includes many others
VardaValar1: aye : )
VardaValar1: Sounds as if we are getting a good working definition, Haleth?
Haleth V: Yes, thank you =)
Haleth V: Interesting discussion, I must say =P
VardaValar1: Thank you, well done
VardaValar1: The heroes had two kinds of rewards, the one they worked for seeing betterment, and incidentals.
ArPharazonV: do we have any examples of good deeds being done out of fear?
VardaValar1: So we have the Hero's Reward and the hero's reward. : )
ArPharazonV: a last desperation?
Haleth V: Hmmm....
VardaValar1: Good deeds done out of fear, could be working for Aragorn who was the upcoming power
Eonwe Valar: Gollum guided Frodo out of fear.
Haleth V: can't think of any off hand.
Eonwe Valar: Fingolfin fought Morgoth out of desparation.
VardaValar1: A bit of revenge in that mix for Fingolfin
Haleth V: True.
ArPharazonV: good deeds done out of fear/desperation instead of actual love... still heroic?
Haleth V: But it wasn't out of fear, exactly...
VardaValar1: Bringing Morgoth to account, mostly
Haleth V: With good intention, I suppose so.
VardaValar1: Phar, I'd go with what was attempted as per our definition. Intention.
VardaValar1: If the intention is to save one's own neck and lifestyle, not necessarily.
ArPharazonV: ok
VardaValar1: The elves did a heroic deed by backing the Ringbearer knowing it would end their lifestyle
Haleth V: Right.
Haleth V: Could sacrifice be included in that definition?
Eonwe Valar: Bilbo didn't bail on the Dwarves when they were captured by Thranduil or the spiders.
VardaValar1: Sacrifice can be required to do things that are selfless, but does not have to be a requirement. The willingness to sacrifice should be there
Haleth V: But most people ended up sacrificing something.
Eonwe Valar: I'll agree with Varda. Willingness to sacrifice.
Eonwe Valar: The Elves still hoped the Rings would be freed, not stripped of their power.
ArPharazonV: Aragorn and many others at the Black Gate...
ArPharazonV: as Gimli put it in the movie: Small chance of succes, certainty of death... what are we waiting for? :-)
VardaValar1: Hope was a strong motivator.
VardaValar1: hehe
VardaValar1: They were willing to sacrifice, but could hope they would not have to.
Haleth V: Right.
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: If it came to it, they would
ArPharazonV: well, one always hopes there will be a timely alternative to actual sacrifice
VardaValar1: This could be the last march of the Ents
Eonwe Valar: What about Faramir following his father's orders to retake Osgiliath? He knew it was futile.
ArPharazonV: but could that be counted as a sacrifice for the greater good, or just a sacrifice for the loyalty to and love of his father?
Star of Phaet has left the room.
VardaValar1: Faramir had gone against his father's wishes many times (book version)
Star of Phaet has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Faramir was partly trying to take Boromir's place
ArPharazonV: Faramir knew that whether or not he sacrificed himself, it would not make a real difference to the war
TH0R0NGIL has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: well, not a real beneficial difference
VardaValar1: Aiya Finrod
ArPharazonV: Aiya
TH0R0NGIL: Aiya
ArPharazonV: yet he still did it
VardaValar1: Finrod, we started out with what was the Hero's Reward, went into definition of a hero
TH0R0NGIL: k
VardaValar1: Seems to have moved to Sacrifice
TH0R0NGIL: I was out slaughtering hapless innocents...therefore the lateness
Haleth V: hehe
Haleth V: must have been fun =P
VardaValar1: : )
ArPharazonV: what game?
TH0R0NGIL: Oh quite...
TH0R0NGIL: SCA
VardaValar1: Ah, then it was fun indeed : )
TH0R0NGIL: :-D
VardaValar1: Challengers to mow down
Haleth V: hehe
ArPharazonV: SCA...
TH0R0NGIL: Society for Creative Anachronism
VardaValar1: Society for Creative Anachronisms
Eonwe Valar: If they're a challenger, are they really innocent? :}
TH0R0NGIL: Haha I won Varda...;-)
VardaValar1: Go Finrod!
Haleth V: Congrats! =)
Eonwe Valar: Congrats :}
TH0R0NGIL: So who's sacrifice?
VardaValar1: Backing up a bit, how did the Fellowship heros try to better the world?
Haleth V: create peace, make it a safer place to live, etc.
VardaValar1: Yours, having to come here when you could be flopping down on a couch in front of a TV : )
ArPharazonV: destroying the Ring, thereby preventing Sauron's takeover
TH0R0NGIL: Frodo was mayor of Hobbiton...
VardaValar1: Specifically?
VardaValar1: Sam too
TH0R0NGIL: True
ArPharazonV: Frodo was mayor?
TH0R0NGIL: And Peregrin was Thain
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: hmm... now that you mention it..
VardaValar1: Merry was Master of the Brandybucks
TH0R0NGIL: Gimli bettered the world by his new colony
ArPharazonV: Legolas by helping to restore Ithilien :-)
VardaValar1: Legolas also had a new colony in Ithilien from Mirkwood elves
Haleth V: gah, brb, AOL'
Eonwe Valar: How did Gimli's colony better the world?
Haleth V: s kicking me offline
Eonwe Valar: and Legolas'?
VardaValar1: The Ithilien elves restored the woods of Ithilien and made gardens for Faramir's city and for Aragorn's city
VardaValar1: Evil America Offline
TH0R0NGIL: Although I don't know how long the elvish one lasted...before they went over the sea
Eonwe Valar: EAOL?
VardaValar1: We know the silvan elves lived happily in the woods for a long time after
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Notice that that has "EA" in it, yet more proof that EA is evil :}
TH0R0NGIL: lol
VardaValar1: um now, let's not be hasty
ArPharazonV: so now EA Games means Evil American Games? =-O
Eonwe Valar: Well no because that would sound right :}
VardaValar1: The actual Mirkwood elves and the Ithilien elves would have lived a long time in the forests, keeping them healthy
Eonwe Valar: but back to Tolkien, pardon :}
ArPharazonV: bara-ruhm.... don't be hasty...
TH0R0NGIL: I'm sure Tolkien loved tangents himself...
VardaValar1: Elladan and Elrohir remained in Rivendell, Celeborn with them for a while, but I don't know how long Rivendell lasted.
TH0R0NGIL: He was a college prof after all
Eonwe Valar: er, that should be "Well no because that wouldn't sound right"
VardaValar1: Tolkien caused enough tangents ; )
Haleth V has left the room.
TH0R0NGIL: Rivendell probably didn't go away...is there any reason to think that it did?
VardaValar1: Lack of elves?
TH0R0NGIL: Even once most of the high elves were gone, there were still some others
Eonwe Valar: It was full of Noldor heading across the Sea. I'd guess it went away :}
Haleth V has entered the room.
Haleth V: Apologies =)
VardaValar1: We know the Silvan elves are said to have remained. Were there many of them in Rivendell?
VardaValar1: Enough to keep it up?
TH0R0NGIL: Some at least...all the ones who sang to Bilbo were probably not Noldorian Lords
VardaValar1: Elladan and Elrohir seem to have chosen the mortal life, as they did not go with Elrond.
VardaValar1: Once they died, perhaps the Silvan elves maintained the place?
TH0R0NGIL: Very probable
ArPharazonV: perhaps a following of Celeborn?
VardaValar1: I kind of doubt that
ArPharazonV: coming with him to Rivendell but staying after he left?
VardaValar1: The Lothlorien elves mostly left
VardaValar1: Maybe, but it seems they might have followed Celeborn. Maybe not all left, interesting thought
VardaValar1: The Lorien elves were used to a forest kept by a Ring
VardaValar1: Even though they were Silvan
TH0R0NGIL: Yet many had probably known it before the Ring was there
VardaValar1: The Ring was in Lothlorien long enough to spoil them, perhaps? : )
VardaValar1: We know they moved out of Lorien. They could have stayed
TH0R0NGIL: Could be, but I'm sure there were some who were willing to go back to life there as before
TH0R0NGIL: In ME at any rate, if not in Lorien
VardaValar1: They were Silvan, and yet did not try to keep up that ancient forest.
TH0R0NGIL: There were already very few there comparatively even at the time of the Great Years
VardaValar1: I wonder if any elves wandered into Fangorn to live?
VardaValar1: Aye, not enough Silvans to maintain the forests
TH0R0NGIL: Remember that Lothlorien was only the extremely shortened version of the original name
VardaValar1: and Lorien is even shorter ; )
VardaValar1: If they weren't willing to keep up their own forest, I would not expect them to keep up another
VardaValar1: It is said that Legolas took Mirkwood elves to Ithilien. Perhaps some Lorien elves went there too for a fresh beginning?
TH0R0NGIL: They wouldn't have to keep up Fangorn, that was the Ent's job
VardaValar1: Aye, about Fangorn : )
TH0R0NGIL: The "keepers of the trees"
FladrifV: *smiles*
ArPharazonV: shepherds, right?
TH0R0NGIL: True
VardaValar1: Fladrif is still working on his forest, albeit a tad sleepily ; )
ArPharazonV: don't be hasty ;-)
FladrifV: we ents have always one eye open
VardaValar1: I wonder about those trees that were becoming more entish
FladrifV: who knows what passes by
VardaValar1: What happened to them
ArPharazonV: huorns?
VardaValar1: The white wizard, perhaps, Fladrif?
FladrifV: or an ent wife who knows
ArPharazonV: or a pair of hobbits?
VardaValar1: Just doing one's duty could become heroic, as it became more and more difficult. If it were done to keep up the betterment of the people and not just out of habit.
VardaValar1: People, ents, etc, you know what is meant. ; )
VardaValar1: So the Hero's Reward for our Fellowship members would be individual as well as general?
VardaValar1: Saved the world and took care of their section during the peace?
Haleth V: I suppose.
VardaValar1: Each one of them became responsible for a piece of the new world. An accident?
ArPharazonV: well, one could say the "incidental" rewards would be more individual in nature
VardaValar1: One reward was a lifelong friendship between them all.
ArPharazonV: true
TH0R0NGIL: Except for when half of them went over the sea, but yes...
ArPharazonV: and the other half died...
Haleth V: lol
VardaValar1: We were working on the Fellowship so that didn't quite sound right : )
TH0R0NGIL: Well "lifelong" doesn't preclude dying...
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: but when the last 2 went over the sea, the rest had already gone or died
VardaValar1: Even after death, Merry and Pippin were honored by Aragorn, placed in the tomb with the Gondorian kings, where he could still be with them too.
VardaValar1: Legolas would not leave until there was no one to stay for, aye
VardaValar1: Since Gimli would go too, Legolas no longer had to stay
ArPharazonV: would his father not count as someone to stay for? or the rest of his family?
VardaValar1: Gimli seemed not to have any ties left either
VardaValar1: Whose?
ArPharazonV: Legolas
VardaValar1: Yes
VardaValar1: But he was afflicted wit Sea-longing and had to fight to make himself stay
ArPharazonV: "afflicted"...
VardaValar1: Galadriel warned him about it, wasn't a good thing to have hit just then
VardaValar1: That does sound odd, doesn't it? :-)
ArPharazonV: it does :-)
VardaValar1: But it was
VardaValar1: So we've defined our heroes, found two types of rewards, and hit several tangents
Haleth V: Interesting conversation, over all =)
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After-meeting:
VardaValar1: Are you guys ready to call it a night or are you still full of vim and vinegar?
ArPharazonV: I'm up for anything!
ArPharazonV: Zul's over by now anyway ;-)
VardaValar1: ouch
VardaValar1: Phar, you could probably call it a morning
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: it's just 1AM here
VardaValar1: 6:04 here
VardaValar1: pm
Haleth V: 4:05 PM here.
FladrifV: *raises one eye* no no sun yet
VardaValar1: That's a thought. What time is it for everyone?
ArPharazonV: I'll probably be up for 2 more hours... too late to find me a LBRS-group:-D
VardaValar1: Guess you already answered that whilst I attempted to type the question. ; )
ArPharazonV: 1:05 here
ArPharazonV: make that 1:06!
VardaValar1: Maybe we should just tuck you in, Phar : )
ArPharazonV: hey, I have an idea...
ArPharazonV: anyone up for some Trivia? ;-)
FladrifV: *cough* breaking news headliner......going to find a acces card for wow ...piep end of message
ArPharazonV: great, Flad!
VardaValar1: Yay!
ArPharazonV: you'll be joining us once again!
VardaValar1: Actually, I'm eyeing the supper table
TH0R0NGIL: 7:07 here
FladrifV: 1:08 here
TH0R0NGIL: I'd go for Trivia ArPharazon...if anyone else is interested...
ArPharazonV: you know the site with the trivia bot?
TH0R0NGIL: nope
Eonwe Valar: I'm busy writing a program, so no trivia for me.
Eonwe Valar: *bangs gavel* meeting adjourned :}
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Officially After-meeting:
Eonwe Valar: Tune in Next week when Haleth brigns us another Tolkien topic :}
VardaValar1: Put the url on the chat room, Phar
VardaValar1: Srekal/Hyarion's trivia bot is fun : )
Eonwe Valar: This week's topics were brought to you by the letter Varda and the number Haleth :}
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: http://hyarion.gotdns.com/java/
Haleth V: and thanks Eonwe :p
VardaValar1: Those with Ventrilo might be able to actually talk to each other now, without needing to type
FladrifV: oh nice
Eonwe Valar: ack, forgot to mention that.
VardaValar1: The Forum message from Alatar?
Eonwe Valar: aye
ArPharazonV: is that site reset or something?
VardaValar1: He thought no one was using Ventrilo, got on, and found three of us using it
FladrifV: digital sign invalid?
Eonwe Valar: ok
VardaValar1: It it dead now?
FladrifV: and I have ventrilio
FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: well, I couldn't actually log in, but I could use my name Pharazon
VardaValar1: Maybe we could pass the hat and send him the money?
Eonwe Valar: I don't know but his message says if you can't get on ventrilo, it's because he let it die.
ArPharazonV: and a single point in the Trivia puts me on 28th place
Eonwe Valar: Since it wasn't getting used much.
VardaValar1: It was right after he put up his Forum message that he found us using it
Eonwe Valar: Ok
VardaValar1: Even as he got on, Fangorn was in the process of mailing a new headset to Merry for his Ventrilo use
VardaValar1: since his mike was 10 years old and he could hear but hardly speak
VardaValar1: Very soft
Eonwe Valar: ah
VardaValar1: If we send Alatar the money, maybe he will keep it signed up
VardaValar1: Sorry his DAoC group seems to have broken up
VardaValar1: I think that was a lot of it
VardaValar1: He enjoys DAoC a great deal
VardaValar1: After a quick bite, I may grab that empty WoW game over there. Eowyn and Fangorn got off. ; )
Haleth V: lol
Haleth V: have fun =P
VardaValar1: Hannon le :-)
Eonwe Valar: HF and bon apetit :}
VardaValar1: Namarie
Haleth V: Namarie :-)
VardaValar1 has left the room.
Haleth V: Well, namarie all, I'm going to head out as well =)
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Haleth V: hopefully will see you all next week =)
ArPharazonV: sure you will!
Haleth V: hehe
Haleth V: until next time then, fellow guild members =)
Haleth V has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: I shall take my leave as well. Take care all and Happy Easter!
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
Xseanzee disco has left the room.
Star of Phaet has left the room.
FladrifV has left the room.
TH0R0NGIL has left the room.
ArPharazonV: ok, saving, but first I'll give this nice link expressing its opinion over the looks of the classsets from Ahn'Qiraj!
ArPharazonV: http://qirajirangers.ytmnd.com/
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