Valar Guild

September 4, 2005 Meeting

5pm ESDT (GMT -5)

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
IRC: irc.freenode.net, join channel #valarguild. http://freenode.net/
Battle.net: Public Chat Valar
Sigma Chat: click on http://client0.sigmachat.com/sc.pl?id=90005  Type in your guild name as the user name.
Say a greeting when you enter on any of these platforms so we'll know you're there!
Bridging program by Farmer Maggot-(V)
Back to News
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharazon-(V)
and Varda-(Valar)

Attending: (12):
    ArPharazonV, Caranthir-(V)/MoriFinwe, Elladan-(V)/Bior the Ythling, Eonwe Valar, Finwe-(V)/aranfinwe, FladrifV, GilraenV, Grimbold-(V)/HearNoEvil80, GwaihirValar, Menelvagor Valar, Pengolodh, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Before-meeting
Meeting Begins
Members
    Rejoining Full Member: Turin-(V)
    Elladan (Bior the Ythling in AIM) and Caranthir (MoriFinwe in AIM) (Caranthir tells about it)
    Merry
Web
    Tolkien Encyclopedia:
        Tolkien Book List and Reviews
        A-Z system demo
    Games Page
    Member Page
Gaming
    D2X
    WoW
        Inactive characters will not be deleted anytime soon from the Blizzard database
        WoW Europe (mostly in the Before-meeting), new site
        WoW USA
Tolkien
    Varda's topic: What were the Aratar?
    Ar-Pharazon's topic: Where did Nienna live?  Text appears contradictory.

Before-meeting:
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
GilraenV has entered the room.
aranfinwe has entered the room.
FladrifV has entered the room.
aranfinwe: aiyas
FladrifV: Aiya
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Good to see you
GilraenV: Aiya folks
GwaihirValar: Hullo
VardaValar1: Shall we just dive right in? Maybe Gilraen will finally have a chance to be in a Tolkien chat if we are fast : )
VardaValar1: The eagle is awake and here! hiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya all
ArPharazonV: we slew King Mosh
VardaValar1: Congrats!
VardaValar1: Eonwe just signed on
ArPharazonV: and we raided the UC and TM, no succes though
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
FladrifV: And we slew fairbank
VardaValar1: good job
ArPharazonV: and we escorted a giant tree through Felwood
aranfinwe: king... mosh... ?
VardaValar1: Oh, that's toughie. Ariel?
ArPharazonV: right, something like that
VardaValar1: They are talking WoW
aranfinwe: all I can think of is some rave master....
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: King Mosh is a lvl 60 elite dinosaur in the Ungoro Crater
aranfinwe: ahhhh.... ok :-)
Eonwe Valar: Hey all.
VardaValar1: 60 is as high as the player can go, so far
aranfinwe: lol, yeah...
VardaValar1: I'd like to go ahead and start the meeting
ArPharazonV: indeed, we were with 4 60s and me, a lvl 58!
VardaValar1: but you guys are still so high... ;-)
VardaValar1: 58 is high too
ArPharazonV: only 2 levels to go... and yet so many quests...
Eonwe Valar: Ulmo's not far from his 2nd 60, which willl give us 8 on Lothar.
VardaValar1: Ok, too many meanings of high here
VardaValar1: But our 60's are not spread across a lot of accounts
VardaValar1: I may have another member coming after he buys WoW. Bilbo's best friend
VardaValar1: anyway, let's start
VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
VardaValar1: Members:
VardaValar1: We have a rejoined member, Turin-V
VardaValar1: previously known as Turin
VardaValar1: Before that he's been a nazgul and a hobbit
VardaValar1: Not keeping in touch can cause such name changes, but he kept it this time : )
VardaValar1: Elladan emailed
VardaValar1: He said he and Caranthir evacuated New Orleans before the hurricane
VardaValar1: Elladan is staying not very far from me :-)
VardaValar1: His family will probably move to Baton Rouge, rather than return to New Orleans
VardaValar1: He's not sure where Caranthir's family is planning to go
VardaValar1: Elladan has only limited comp access, but he's hunting somewhere to play WoW on Lothar with us
VardaValar1: Says he's really bored :-)
VardaValar1: He would enjoy your emails
VardaValar1: His email is on the News page
VardaValar1: Merry-(V) has been involved in rescue efforts due to Hurricane Katrina
VardaValar1: He and his rescue teams have had to pull back due to being shot at
VardaValar1: But they move in where they can
VardaValar1: Does anyone else have any member news?
VardaValar1: Either no or you are all afk : )
top

VardaValar1: Web News:
VardaValar1: Lungorthin still needs your help in improving the Tolkien book list, of books about Tolkien
VardaValar1: For those who are curious, here is a taste of the A-Z system for the Tolkien Encyc. It only has the A's partly set up:
VardaValar1: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encycaz/frames/encycazfrms.htm
VardaValar1: You can see from this that the subject index will be just as reachable as always
VardaValar1: Any other Web News?
VardaValar1: Menel? Eonwe? Web news from either of you?
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VardaValar1: Gaming News:
Eonwe Valar: Pardon. GPMU mails will be sent out soon.
VardaValar1: D2X ladder 3 is still going. If anyone has an account name they would like listed for contact, email me, please
VardaValar1: That's always a giant chore. Good luck with that!
VardaValar1: Elatan's Member page is also under reconstruction
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
VardaValar1: Menelvagor, do you have any gaming news?
VardaValar1: I know you guys were full of vinegar when you popped in : )
VardaValar1: Probably off killing things : )
VardaValar1: Eonwe, do you have a gaming report?
Eonwe Valar: For WoW, yes :}  [WoW USA]
VardaValar1: Great! Thanks! Please go ahead
Eonwe Valar: Dracxil, Varda and Eonw� marched into Uldaman to finally eliminate the last to quests I had there :}
MoriFinwe has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: These were : Solution to Doom and Restoring the Necklace.
MoriFinwe: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: In the process of looking for the biggest construct in Uldaman, we cleared out a big chunk of it fairly easily.
Eonwe Valar: We slew Ironya and Revelosh along the way.
Eonwe Valar: We also found a couple of locked mithril chests, but not having keys or Rogues with us, we had to leave them.
Eonwe Valar: After fighting through the shaking golems, we plowed through the enemies that stood between us and the master of Uldaman.
Eonwe Valar: This is where it got fun :}
Eonwe Valar: Beline dealt with the boss while I kept the summoned earthen and golems off him. Varda alternated between the two.
VardaValar1: I mainly went for the boss
VardaValar1: Hoping for those high crits ;-)
Eonwe Valar: After one of us got disconnected (which we almost be the boss despite :}) we came back and took the boss out.
ArPharazonV: not bad... we failed our most recent uldaman-expedition because of that boss
Eonwe Valar: Turned out he was the biggest construct in Uldaman :} So I claimed the part I needed for Restoring the Necklace, and we went to the next chamber to divide the trasure.
Eonwe Valar: *treasure
ArPharazonV: the designated add-fighters couldn't keep the healer aggro-free, and she being only 42, it wasn't good...
Eonwe Valar: After finishing up there, we cleared out the rest of Uldaman in search of the Tablet of Ryun'eh
Eonwe Valar: Only to find it outside the instance :}
ArPharazonV: hehe
Eonwe Valar: So, Uldaman has been purged of evil, and I never have to go back again :}Unless someone else has quests to do there :}
Eonwe Valar: Thanks go to Beline and Varda for making that possible :}
GwaihirValar: Archaedes... now thats a fun encounter...
Eonwe Valar: And that's my report :}
VardaValar1: Thank you, Eonwe!
VardaValar1: Other people were also playing on guild night, but we were not at compatible levels
VardaValar1: Turambar and Undomiel got together for some very low level questing in Elwynn Forest
VardaValar1: Niequi went to Dire Maul
VardaValar1: Thursday we had a group of five: one guild friend and the rest full members
VardaValar1: Niequi came a bit too late to join that group of lowbies. Great fun though
VardaValar1: Thursday has been a better day for us for full guild groups than Friday, for some reason
VardaValar1: Any further gaming news?
VardaValar1: Guess not : )
ArPharazonV: I got to lvl 58!
VardaValar1: Did anyone check out the A-Z Tolkien Encyc page yet?
VardaValar1: Phar, that's really good!
VardaValar1: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encycaz/frames/encycazfrms.htm
ArPharazonV: and after 3 days of farming, I got the Hinterlands-beacon earlier this week... and now finally have my mech-chicken!
VardaValar1: hehe - that's fun and good news
MoriFinwe: I was thinking about lvling up my char on Lothar but since the hurricane i havent been able to get on WoW and now my accounts frozen so i need to get a new game card.
VardaValar1: ouch!
VardaValar1: However, your Morifinwe character still shows up on our Guild roster on Lothar as a 17 hunter : )
MoriFinwe: yes lol
VardaValar1: So it is still there for you
VardaValar1: Not lost
VardaValar1: Caranthir's been telling about his adventures escaping from Hurricane Katrina
GwaihirValar: one good thing... Blizzard has stated that they have no plans to delete inactive characters anytime in the near future... apparantly they've got more than enogh hard drive space to hold us all intact ;-)
VardaValar1: Did you want to tell a little about how you are situated now?
VardaValar1: That is great news, Gwaihir!
VardaValar1: Especially for a lot of people in the same situation as Elladan and Caranthir
MoriFinwe: Well im at my uncles house with 15 other members of my family
MoriFinwe: We are in El Dorado, Arkansas and im really bored cause theres nothing to do out here
ArPharazonV: El Dorado? land of gold?
Eonwe Valar: Start a sports team? :}
MoriFinwe: lol thats what i thought too but its just the name of a small town
GwaihirValar: (I'm sorry to interrupt... but I'm up FAR later than I should be given my schedule h ehe... I should be going... been nice seeing you all... its time for me to go roost up... ;-))
VardaValar1: Namarie!
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
GwaihirValar: Farewell, everyone. Goodnight, friends. (I'd best hurry before my beloved lady starts casting cold glares at how late I'm up ;-))
VardaValar1: You can wrtie for the Encyc : )
VardaValar1: Can't have that, Gwaihir! :-)
GwaihirValar: hehe
VardaValar1: or write even
GwaihirValar: Goodnight! :-)
GwaihirValar has left the room.
VardaValar1: draw and scan it at some local Kwik Kopy
VardaValar1: Scout new members from those 15 jammed in with you ;-)
VardaValar1: Articles, poetry, stories, humor, whatever strikes your fancy.
VardaValar1: Or send reviews to our story and poetry writers, maybe even to be posted if you give the ok
VardaValar1: So, anyone have some other ideas for Morifinwe? : )
VardaValar1: oh, post to the guild Forum ;-)
GilraenV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Oh come on, you knew I was going to say that
VardaValar1: Any other news, comments?
ArPharazonV: join the rp!
VardaValar1: Oh, right!
VardaValar1: Or even read it
Eonwe Valar: Aye, most of it is good reading :}
ArPharazonV: read it, and give us ideas....
ArPharazonV: heh, we should print it and sell it as a book
Eonwe Valar: need about 27 more chapters first :}
ArPharazonV: don't think Tolkien estate would allow that, though...
VardaValar1: Tolkien Estates just might frown on that, aye
VardaValar1: We are publishing it free on our site : )
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: Once on the Forum, and the other, which I've neglected, on our Story site
VardaValar1: Thanks for reminding me. I need to fix that
ArPharazonV: haven't seen it since you placed chapter 1..
ArPharazonV: luckily, I was there when we wrote the other chapters ;-)
VardaValar1: I have a link from the story page to the Forum so they can go right into it
VardaValar1: Any other things you folks would like to add?
VardaValar1: We already lost Gilraen, so I'm not in such a rush now, heh
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VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: As the Valar guild, we should know a little something about Valar
VardaValar1: for instance, what the Aratar were
ArPharazonV: the great 9, right?
VardaValar1: Did it remain 9?
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar
ArPharazonV: was Melkor one of them?
VardaValar1: Originally
VardaValar1: In the mind of Eru, Melkor was meant to be brother to Manwe
ArPharazonV: so he was one of the 9? and after he left, it was 8?
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: If you look at A under that A-Z, it has the Aratar list
VardaValar1: caranthirv(AT)gmail.com
VardaValar1: ack, sorry
MoriFinwe: lol
VardaValar1: Changed what i had on copy
VardaValar1: New email for Caranthir : )
VardaValar1: You might want that, Eonwe
VardaValar1: And the rest of you can flood him with news :-)
VardaValar1: Flood his box with real letters!
VardaValar1: Here's the A-Z heh
VardaValar1: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encycaz/frames/encycazfrms.htm
VardaValar1: I'm hoping it can make it easier for fast look ups for our discussions
FladrifV: sorry to interupt but I have to go to sleep now school is up and running again, Namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
VardaValar1: bye!
FladrifV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Funny how Europe can come to meetings late at night, but Americas don't have time
VardaValar1: Ok, the Aratar went from 9 to 8
Bior the Ythling has entered the room.
Bior the Ythling: aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Bior the Ythling: :-) how is everyone
ArPharazonV: ok, let's see if I know them all from my head...
VardaValar1: Good
Eonwe Valar: In order now Phar :}
ArPharazonV: Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Varda, Yavanna...
ArPharazonV: in order?
VardaValar1: We are trying to get the Aratar straight in our heads : )
ArPharazonV: Mandos?
Bior the Ythling: no clue what that is :-)
ArPharazonV: Tulkas?
VardaValar1: Elladan, glad you could make it
VardaValar1: The top 8 Valar
Bior the Ythling: yea i almost forgot
Bior the Ythling: but got on to talk to mori and he reminded me
ArPharazonV: I always get the 'lesser' wives confused... Vana, Nessa..
VardaValar1: We figured as the Valar guild, we should try to know who they are
VardaValar1: If we had them in the guild, it would be easier : )
Eonwe Valar: Manw�, Varda, Ulmo, Aul�, Yavanna, Est�, Vair�, Tulkas, Namo. Probably not in the correct order after Yavanna, but it's 9 after Morgoth left.
Eonwe Valar: scratch that
Eonwe Valar: Irmo's somewhere in there too.
Eonwe Valar: and scracth that it's nine after morgoth left.
ArPharazonV: You have now named 10, including Irmo
ArPharazonV: that's 2 too many
Eonwe Valar: ok, Manw�, Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna, Aul�, Mandos, Nienna, Orom� are the Aratar.
Eonwe Valar: I would've named all the Valar and Valier if I had kept going ,Phar :}
ArPharazonV: :-)
ArPharazonV: ah, here's the passage...
ArPharazonV: Manwe Varda Ulmo Yavanna Aule Mandos Nienna Orome.... you hit the nail on the head, so to speak
Menelvagor Valar: and I'm back from afk city.
Eonwe Valar: I looked it up :}
ArPharazonV: ah
Eonwe Valar: wb Menel :}
Menelvagor Valar: and unfortunately, time to leave for sleep city as well
ArPharazonV: no WoW news Menel?
Menelvagor Valar: I haven't had the time to play WoW since last monday really.
VardaValar1: Valaquenta, "Of the Valar", the last paragraph
VardaValar1: Welcome back : )
VardaValar1: Sleep well
ArPharazonV: well, I've never paid attention to the raid-progress, alliance-strengthening, etc...
ArPharazonV: I can tell you this though, we have a new website+forum
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, the only bit of news is that THG now has a new site: http://www.thehighguard.net
VardaValar1: Thanks
VardaValar1: We still have three Valar in it?
Menelvagor Valar: yup
VardaValar1: Okies, thanks1
VardaValar1: !
Menelvagor Valar: and even if I'm not in it technically, it's still my guild, whether they like it or not :P
VardaValar1: Glad you could have time to come
VardaValar1: heheh
VardaValar1: You still care about it : )
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Menelvagor Valar: anyways, I'm gonna get a late night snack and head for bed
VardaValar1: Sleep well. Always good to see you
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie.
Bior the Ythling: night
Eonwe Valar: sleep well Menel
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: So, you guys found the spot in the chapter?
Eonwe Valar: I have it, aye. No mention of Eonw� for some reason :}
Eonwe Valar: ( I kid :})
VardaValar1: At the beginning of the chapter it tells of the seven lords and seven queens
VardaValar1: heheh
VardaValar1: At the end of the chapter it tells that of them, eight are the Aratar
VardaValar1: This causes some confusion, I think
Eonwe Valar: I'm not so surprised Tulkas is counted among them (says he's not much for Counsel) but it's interesting Irmo isn't.
VardaValar1: I thought one thing about the list was odd
Eonwe Valar: is =isn't
VardaValar1: Aye. His brother is on it
VardaValar1: I guess Death is considered higher than Dreams here
VardaValar1: It says these 8 have the chief power and reverence
Eonwe Valar: Well, I would say the fate of the F�a as opposed to "Death"
VardaValar1: "In majesty they are peers, surpassing all others..."
VardaValar1: You are right. Doom as in Fate
VardaValar1: He had knowledge of what was to come, but would only reveal it if asked to by Manwe
VardaValar1: Manwe was closer to Eru's mind than the others, so they listened to him for suggestions on what they should do
VardaValar1: He didn't seem all that big on ordering, but they still took it as we might take an order if he suggested
ArPharazonV: the Prophecies of Mandos... no prophecy was more (in)famous
VardaValar1: Huge effect, aye
Eonwe Valar: To quote Mel Brooks, "It's good to be the King." :}
Eonwe Valar: Seemed to me Manw� spoke and it was final.
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
VardaValar1: heheh
ArPharazonV: History of the World?
Eonwe Valar: There was Council, then Manw� made a decision.
ArPharazonV: part 1?
Eonwe Valar: Among other Mel Brooks works, yes.
ArPharazonV: oh, he also said it in that Robin Hood-parody, didn't he?
Eonwe Valar: Also in "Robin Hood: Men in Tights"
ArPharazonV: right!
Eonwe Valar: But anyway, back to Manw� :}
Eonwe Valar: and the Aratar :}
ArPharazonV: Est�... what domain did she have?
Eonwe Valar: There was an understood order. Everyone (Ainur) knew Manw� was to be the first of Kings, as it was Eru's will. Manw� was as you said closest in mind to Eru, and would have a great understanding of Eru's will.
VardaValar1: Rest
VardaValar1: Este the Gentle. Healer of hurts and weariness. Spouse of Irmo.
ArPharazonV: hehe... she got in and her husband didn't...
ArPharazonV: that's rare
VardaValar1: Este is not an Aratar
ArPharazonV: oh, right
Eonwe Valar: He took no thought for his own honor, instead ruling all to peace (or something like that. Can't seem to find the quote).
ArPharazonV: she's what Eonwe said first... sorry, confuzzled previous lines
VardaValar1: Look under Manwe in the Encyc. Manwe-(Valar) quoted it and it leads off
Eonwe Valar: will do
HearNoEvil80 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya!
HearNoEvil80: Aiya...sorry I'm back and forth cleaning....so I'll try to participate as much as I can
VardaValar1: Unfortunately, the reference is just "Silmarillion" not the chapter
VardaValar1: Welcome
VardaValar1: We were talking about the Aratar
VardaValar1: Trying to get them straight in our heads, since we're the Valar Guild : )
VardaValar1: The top 8 Valar
VardaValar1: Glad you could pop in and say hi!
VardaValar1: ''Manwe has no thought for his own honour, and is not jealous of his power, but rules all to peace''
VardaValar1: Your memory is good, Eonwe : )
Eonwe Valar: Thanks :}
VardaValar1: Aratar: Manwe and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aule, Mandos, Nienna, and Orome
Eonwe Valar: Here we go, foudn the gquote
VardaValar1: I'd say Nienna is the one we are least familiar with.
Eonwe Valar: "Of the Beginning of Days"
ArPharazonV: Fui Nienna....
ArPharazonV: Mourning
ArPharazonV: had her residence on the west-coast of valinor, looking west
ArPharazonV: other sources say she looked out through the wall of night, but obviously that cannot be, since it would apply Valinor lying directly against the wall
ArPharazonV: her tears caused the last blossoming of Telperion
ArPharazonV: and that's all I can recall from the top of my head
VardaValar1: Thanks, Eonwe. Just now updating the quote's reference on the page
Eonwe Valar: mp
VardaValar1: Phar, you're allowed to use books during the discussion. This is not a test :-)
ArPharazonV: hehe... just testing what I still know...
ArPharazonV: it's a lot easier than flipping through countless pages for that little scrap of extra info
ArPharazonV: ah, here...
VardaValar1: One reason I'm trying to make navigation of the Encyc easy
ArPharazonV: 2 quotes, not far from each other... "Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world;"
ArPharazonV: and "The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world."
ArPharazonV: does that mean she lives.. upon the outer sea?
VardaValar1: She lives in Aman, but on the edge
ArPharazonV: but... if they look out from the walls of the world.. what does that imply?
VardaValar1: Tell us : )
ArPharazonV: I cannot say
Eonwe Valar: It implies Aman is the Westernmost land in Arda :}
VardaValar1: Aman is still in the flat version of Middle-earth
Eonwe Valar: Not realyl an implication however, since it pretty well says that in the stories ;}
Eonwe Valar: Keep in mind that in BoLT, Arda had a ship shape.
VardaValar1: True
ArPharazonV: it implies that Aman's west-coast is one of the walls of the world...
Eonwe Valar: exactly Phar
VardaValar1: *Tries not to joke about it being ship-shape, fails miserably.*
Eonwe Valar: Through those doors Isil and Anar would later travel.
ArPharazonV: but did not Ulmo live in the Outer Sea, outside Aman?
ArPharazonV: as in: west of it?
Eonwe Valar: Think of it like this
Eonwe Valar: You know how the edge of a map in WC3 is greyed out, but there's still stuff beyond it?
Eonwe Valar: might be something like that
MoriFinwe: I gtg my cousin is kicking me off comp
VardaValar1: Hi to MoriFinwe's Cousin! :-)
Eonwe Valar: Again, the Ship shape in BoLT is the one where Nienna has her house on the shore anyway.
MoriFinwe: Namaire
VardaValar1: Thanks for coming, Caranthir!
MoriFinwe: hope to talk to yall soon
VardaValar1: See you in the emails : )
MoriFinwe has left the room.
ArPharazonV: yet looking at the ship-shape, I recall Ulmo's halls being west of Aman
Eonwe Valar: ok scratch that
VardaValar1: Ulmo also lived in Vai beneath the ship
Eonwe Valar: there's a reference in the Sil as well
Eonwe Valar: "upon the borders of the world
Eonwe Valar: "
VardaValar1: The Vai, the almost ethereal water on which the ship floated
ArPharazonV: I want to get one thing straight: did Ulmo live outside the walls of the world?
Eonwe Valar: no
VardaValar1: No
ArPharazonV: yet he lived 'outside' Aman's west-coast, did he not?
Eonwe Valar: there are three "airs" surrounding the world.
VardaValar1: In the final version of the Sil, he lives most usually in the oceans
Eonwe Valar: can also say can also say they're "seas" of a sort.
Eonwe Valar: The Ekkaia is the outermost ai, and I believe my references translate it as "the Encricling Seas"
Eonwe Valar: *Encircling
ArPharazonV: and is it not in those seas that Ulmo had his halls?
VardaValar1: oh, Tolkien pulls it off neatly! In the Sil, he says that Ulmo:
VardaValar1: "moves as he will in all the deep waters about the Earth or under the Earth."
VardaValar1: "Of the Valar"
ArPharazonV: right, I found it
ArPharazonV: yet for me, it clarifies nothing I did not know already
ArPharazonV: nor does it answer my confusion
VardaValar1: Ulmo has no "halls"
ArPharazonV: let me put it this way:
VardaValar1: He moves in the water
ArPharazonV: the deep waters about the Earth, are they not outside Aman? to the West also?
VardaValar1: You know where the Doors of Night are?
ArPharazonV: yes, outside the waters, I thought
Eonwe Valar: Ah, but it also says in "In the Beginning of Days" : "he dwelt from the beginning of Arda in the Outer Ocean, and he still dwells there."
ArPharazonV: the Outer Ocean, yes, that's the key
Eonwe Valar: ok, one more thing to remember
Bior the Ythling: well since i have no clue what anyone is talking about im gonna go play wc3 :-) well i sorta no but could not participate if yall need help startin up Valar on wc3 id be willin to help Herumor my name on there or just go clan lokd
Eonwe Valar: The Valar are spirits, not flesh, so they don't need to make their homes on dry land :}
VardaValar1: Elladan
Bior the Ythling: Namarie. :-)
Bior the Ythling: yes?
ArPharazonV: if the Doors of Night are in the walls of the world, and the westcoast of Aman was the west-wall of the world, how can the Outer Ocean be within the Doors of Night?
VardaValar1: We are trying to tell it so people will know it
VardaValar1: Not trying to make people clueless :-)
VardaValar1: Don't feel bad
VardaValar1: We are digging it out of the books
Bior the Ythling: hehe its ok :-)
VardaValar1: We hope you can pick up the info here
Bior the Ythling: i try
Bior the Ythling: its too much for my tiny brain tho :-P
VardaValar1: We are not being all that clear yet : )
VardaValar1: See you around : )
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
Eonwe Valar: Because Melkor comes in through the Doors of Night, which means the Doors of Night are between Arda and the Void.
Eonwe Valar: or, how about this:
Bior the Ythling: sorry we didnt get to meet it would have been quite a honor
Eonwe Valar: Ekkaia is Space :}
Eonwe Valar: and the Doors of Night are beyond Space :}
VardaValar1: Never know, it could still happen :-)
Bior the Ythling: Namarie. :-)
VardaValar1: Take care on your trip!
ArPharazonV: exactly, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: take care Elladan :}
ArPharazonV: beyond Space
Bior the Ythling has left the room.
ArPharazonV: beyond the Outer Ocean
VardaValar1: The waters of Vai are inside
ArPharazonV: then how can the west-coast of Aman lie against the wall of the world?
VardaValar1: Elladan is heading for Baton Rouge tomorrow, so we did not get to get together after all
Eonwe Valar: because Arda is flat
ArPharazonV: since the Outer Ocean should always lie between them?
ArPharazonV: oh, here's another thing
VardaValar1: One thing is it might not be completely literal as in right smack against
ArPharazonV: before they were sent on their paths through the Door of Night, the Sun and Moon passed below the Earth
ArPharazonV: yet if Aman lay against the walls, how could they have 'gone under'?
VardaValar1: Also, the stories seem to contradict since they are notes done over many years
VardaValar1: The ground floated on Vai
VardaValar1: They traveled in caverns
ArPharazonV: they travelled in caverns? they never went within Vai itself?
VardaValar1: It says this, not making it up
VardaValar1: They passed through the caverns
VardaValar1: You ask faster than I can look up : )
ArPharazonV: yet, it is integral to my initial question
VardaValar1: ok, hitting this one. It has a couple of versions
VardaValar1: BoLT 2
ArPharazonV: wasn't the sun and the moon in BoLT 1?
VardaValar1: note
ArPharazonV: oh.. sorry
Eonwe Valar: The transition from BoLT to Sil is also part of the problem. To me, BoLT is very much a geocentric creation, i.e. there's only Arda.
VardaValar1: I happen to be looking in 2. Want me to change?
ArPharazonV: no, no... if you've found something, it's good
Pengolodh has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: In the Sil, you start to get the impressions there's more out there, but there are parts in the tales that haven't been adjusted to that change.
Pengolodh: Aiya!
ArPharazonV: as in, Nienna's house looking out from the walls of the world..
Eonwe Valar: Hail
VardaValar1: "In that description the Door of Night is not however 'the gateway of the Moon', for it is the sun that passes through it into the outer dark, whereas...
ArPharazonV: oh, here's something in the Sil, the beginning of days:
VardaValar1: 'the Moon dares not the utter loneliness of the outer dark by reason of his lesser light and majesty, and he journeys still beneath the world
VardaValar1: "i.e. through the waters of Vai"
VardaValar1: End quote
VardaValar1: Hiya Pen :-)
ArPharazonV: about Aman: "for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea, that is called by the Elves Ekkaia, encircling the Kingdom of Arda.
ArPharazonV: How wide is that sea none know but the Valar; and beyond it are the Walls of Night."
ArPharazonV: end quote
ArPharazonV: this implies that Aman did not lie against the Walls of Night
VardaValar1: Always make sure you say where you are quoting from, as it changes over time
Eonwe Valar: ok, pardon, but with all these quotes I've lost what we were talking about originally.
ArPharazonV: which either directly contradicts the statement about Nienna's house, or implies that she lived in/on the Outer Ocean
ArPharazonV: and that was my point all along
VardaValar1: Phar is talking about where Nienna's house lies
Eonwe Valar: ok
Eonwe Valar: so, the problem is?
Eonwe Valar: is there anythign that says she doesn't live in/on the Outer Ocean?
ArPharazonV: a seeming contradiction, which I hoped you could clarify for me
ArPharazonV: ArPharazonV: does that mean she lives.. upon the outer sea?VardaValar1: She lives in Aman, but on the edge
Pengolodh: Having reread LT I recently, I recall that it was on the edge of the outer sea, but I don't have it directly in front of me to quote.
ArPharazonV: ArPharazonV: it implies that Aman's west-coast is one of the walls of the world... Eonwe Valar: exactly Phar
ArPharazonV: obviously, that is not the case
Pengolodh: The concept in BoLT doesn't really go into much about "walls" of the world as much as it does that the world is a vessel (i.e. ship), floating in Vai, the outer ocean.
Eonwe Valar: Well then I go to the part where I said Eonwe Valar: The Valar are spirits, not flesh, so they don't need to make their homes on dry land :}
VardaValar1: Ok, and you know what Ekkaia is?
ArPharazonV: I thought you were talking about Ulmo there, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Let's base the examination solely on the Sil since Ea goes from planet to universe in between the two.
Pengolodh: Ekkaia was what what Vai became, from what I understand.
Eonwe Valar: *Sil rather than BoLT.
ArPharazonV: so now we're saying Nienna lives on the outer edge of Ekkaia, looking out from the Walls of Night?
ArPharazonV: nice
Eonwe Valar: If the Sil says she looks out from the Walls of Night, sure.
ArPharazonV: it says her windows look out from the walls of the world
VardaValar1: ok, pulling back
Eonwe Valar: Don't recall that part, only where she lives West of West, but let's take a look.
VardaValar1: Sil is canon
Pengolodh: I'm not saying that. Are you extrapolating that from what I'm saying?
VardaValar1: We have been talking a while, Pen : )
Pengolodh: So I gather. lol
ArPharazonV: "The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world."
VardaValar1: Ok, backing way up
Eonwe Valar: We're now limiting to Sil so as to discuss this with better ease.
VardaValar1: Phar, which book are you quoting now?
Eonwe Valar: Now give a section quote Phar :}
ArPharazonV: this stands in the Valaquenta, Sil
VardaValar1: thanks
Eonwe Valar: ok, another note
Eonwe Valar: when they say "the World" it could and would most likely mean "Ea" the Universe as opposed to "Arda" the planet.
Eonwe Valar: in the Sil at least
Eonwe Valar: so in other words, world = Ea = existence
VardaValar1: found it, thanks
VardaValar1: Her halls are west of West
VardaValar1: West is Aman
ArPharazonV: oh, btw, it also says: "She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near her own;"
Pengolodh: I think it makes sense if you think of the the outer sea as being beyond the "walls of the world"...which may very well be different from the "walls of night"
VardaValar1: she is on the west side of Aman
Pengolodh has left the room.
ArPharazonV: or she is west of Aman
Eonwe Valar: except for this problem where she lives near Mandos.
VardaValar1: That she is actually on Aman is implied here:
VardaValar1: "she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad..
VardaValar1: "She goes rather to the Halls of Mandos which are near to her own"
VardaValar1: So if you know where Mandos is, you get close to her place
ArPharazonV: thus, this could only work, if the walls of the world cannot be equated with the Walls of Night, as Pengolodh said
Eonwe Valar: so maybe her windows have a Palantir effect towards the edge of the universe.
Pengolodh has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: yet, Eonwe, it says they look outward from the walls of the world...
VardaValar1: wb
Pengolodh: diole
ArPharazonV: so instead of looking towards the edge of the universe, it looks beyond
ArPharazonV: and beyond only
VardaValar1: it says west of West, upon the borders of the world
ArPharazonV: indeed
Eonwe Valar: ok then this is what we'll do :}
ArPharazonV: so the only way this can work
Eonwe Valar: World = Ea, world = Arda :}
VardaValar1: Aman is at the borders of the world
ArPharazonV: is if the walls of the world/borders of the world are not equated with the Walls of Night
VardaValar1: Nice job, Eonwe : )
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: that seems how it's supposed to be anyway.
Pengolodh: Just to throw a monkey wrench in it....
VardaValar1: Use Sil, Pen ;-)
Eonwe Valar: borders of Arda are different from borders of Ea, for obvious reasons :}
Eonwe Valar: so she looks into space :}
Pengolodh: Are we assuming this is solely the description prior to the removal of Valinor from the world? And how could we describe it otherwise?
VardaValar1: "The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world"
ArPharazonV: therefore, the walls of the world cannot actually be a 'wall' literally speaking, compared to the Walls of Night
ArPharazonV: otherwise, Ulmo could never come in ;-)
ArPharazonV: or the Moon go out
VardaValar1: It has doors
ArPharazonV: are you saying there's a literal wall at the west-coast of Aman?
VardaValar1: Ok, Arda is a planet.
VardaValar1: My concept of a wall may not be yours, also
Eonwe Valar: ok
Pengolodh: Walls perhaps in the sense of mountains.
Eonwe Valar: reading Of the Sun and Moon, doesn't seem to be a reference to the Doors of Night here.
VardaValar1: You are trying to say there's a wall around Aman?
VardaValar1: There are mountains around Aman, with an opening by the Teleri
ArPharazonV: but are there also mountains on the west-coast?
VardaValar1: But one can sail from the round of Middle-earth to Aman using the straight path, as it is all in the same world
ArPharazonV: that would mean Nienna's house is on top of those mountains
ArPharazonV: or, at least, within, looking west
Eonwe Valar: ok, there are only mountains on one side of Aman
VardaValar1: I remember seeing a map showing their locations. Not sure where. Digging
ArPharazonV: probably LT also, Varda...
Eonwe Valar: Anar lay on the Outer Sea shining upon Valinor at the end of her run each day.
Pengolodh: LT has a better description of the west of Aman
Eonwe Valar: then Ulmo's servants would pull them under the earth.
VardaValar1: you are using LT like we usually use BoLT?
ArPharazonV: yeah
ArPharazonV: Lost Tales
Eonwe Valar: Same with Isil.
Pengolodh: And in it, Ulmo is one of the few who fares in the Outer Sea.
VardaValar1: You are messing with my mind. We generally use BoLT 1 and 2
Eonwe Valar: Both travelled in Ilmen, the middle air
VardaValar1: She is near the Halls of Mandos
Pengolodh: There's also a question in BoLT posed by C. Tolkien about whether the outer sea (Vai) encompasses all three outer airs.
VardaValar1: Locate the Halls of Mandos : )
ArPharazonV: I also recall C. Tolkien making the same contradiction I stated tonight
Pengolodh: Like father, like son. lol
ArPharazonV: not sure which book that was, though... could be anything with the Valaquenta or the Ambarkanta
VardaValar1: "westward in Valinor"
VardaValar1: (Halls of Mandos)
VardaValar1: The Halls of Mandos ever widen as the ages pass"
VardaValar1: So Nienna is west of "westward in Valinor"
Eonwe Valar: Here's one more thing for us to keep in mind as we do our best to flesh out Ea in our minds.
VardaValar1: Puts her on the edge
VardaValar1: the border
ArPharazonV: the edge of Valinor, right?
VardaValar1: aye, Phar
ArPharazonV: but what does that say about the walls of the world?
VardaValar1: Go ahead, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: I'm sure he's typing as we speak :-)
Eonwe Valar: "A complete consistency (either within the compass of The Silmarillion itself or between The Silmarillion and other published writings of my father's) is not to be looked for, and could only be achieved, if at all, at heavy and
Eonwe Valar: needless cost."
VardaValar1: The windows of her house look outward from Arda
VardaValar1: hehe - quite right, Christopher Tolkien!
Pengolodh: ...at the writing of the Valaquenta, that is.
Eonwe Valar: So that's why he left it to the fans to pay the price :}
VardaValar1: So here we are : )
VardaValar1: But she can look outward from the edge of Valinor
Pengolodh has left the room.
VardaValar1: from the west side
ArPharazonV: yet still, what we have concluded now... is that the 'walls of the world' and 'the edge of Valinor' are the same thing
Eonwe Valar: So, the bottom line is, let's do our best, but try not to let it keep us up at night :}
ArPharazonV: is it not?
VardaValar1: Too late. Europe starts late at night
Pengolodh has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: All this talking has made my throat dry. GOing to get a drink, and will be back to keep paying the price :}
VardaValar1: aiya
VardaValar1: heheh
Pengolodh: (I've gotta figure out why this happens.)
ArPharazonV: nice new color!
VardaValar1: Nice purple on my screen for Pen : )
ArPharazonV: yep
Pengolodh: Does that mean I'm marked for another connection loss?
VardaValar1: No, means you are easy to read
Pengolodh: I'm stained.
ArPharazonV: probably, yes, until your color is horrible, and you'll stay that way..
VardaValar1: Royal purple is not a bad thing
VardaValar1: Another thing is to figure out what is meant by "walls"
ArPharazonV: exactly, Varda
VardaValar1: That Aman is flat is already a mind-blower
ArPharazonV: for if the walls of the world were actually walls, like to the Walls of Night...
Pengolodh: Keep in mind that Valaquenta was written before the world was bent and Aman removed from Arda.
VardaValar1: We have to reach it from the round Middle-earth by the straight path
VardaValar1: ok, then everything would be flat at that time
VardaValar1: But Valinor is still on the west side
Pengolodh: Right.
ArPharazonV: right, right
VardaValar1: Your point?
ArPharazonV: mine?
VardaValar1: Pen's
Pengolodh: Well, it's easier to conceive of 'walls' around a flat surface.
Pengolodh: Like a room or building.
VardaValar1: Space is a kind of wall
VardaValar1: The Valar could not leave Arda
Eonwe Valar: Couldn't leave Ea
VardaValar1: So they were kept inside Arda
ArPharazonV: indeed, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: they were kept inside Ea, not Arda
Eonwe Valar: Arda is a planet, Ea is the universe
ArPharazonV: they were kept within the Walls of Night, not the walls of the world
Pengolodh: Beyond the Walls of Night would be the Void?
ArPharazonV: for neither Ulmo nor the Sun and Moon stayed within the 'walls of the world'
ArPharazonV: yes, it would
Eonwe Valar: the world vs the World.
ArPharazonV: where they shut Morgoth
VardaValar1: hmm, here's a spot. "Utmost border of the of the Veil of Arda". Borders/ walls?
Eonwe Valar: aye
Eonwe Valar: planets have a sort of border
ArPharazonV: its outer surface
ArPharazonV: if they were round
Eonwe Valar: at the edge of their atmosphere the airs start to mix.
Pengolodh: And Tolkien describes different layers of 'atmosphere'.
VardaValar1: Out of the deeps of Ea, Varda came to the aid of Manwe
Eonwe Valar: Aye, Varda was elsewhere making stars :}
ArPharazonV: so, basically, unlike the Walls of Night, the walls of the world were not actually physical walls?
Pengolodh: Perhaps not. they could just refer to the edge.
Eonwe Valar: ok, everyone here have Atlas of Middle-Earth?
ArPharazonV: not me
Pengolodh: I don't.
Eonwe Valar: Darn. There's an illustration in there that includes the Airs if I recall.
Eonwe Valar: ok, scratch everything
Eonwe Valar: this is it
Eonwe Valar: Ilmen is space
Eonwe Valar: Ilmen is " the region above the air where the stars are"
VardaValar1: Okies. The vision is of Ea. Then the Valar were drawn to Arda as the place where the Children of Iluvatar would be born.
Pengolodh: That still makes sense. The universe is supposedly finite.
Pengolodh: ...as Ea would be.
ArPharazonV: indeed, surrounded by the Walls of Night
VardaValar1: Melkor wanted to take over Arda
Eonwe Valar: ok
Eonwe Valar: no this is starting to get me now.
VardaValar1: They are drawn to Arda
Eonwe Valar: no = now
Eonwe Valar: or ok, rather
Pengolodh: Arda was the center of the Flame Imperishable.
ArPharazonV: no, the Flame Imperishable was set as the center of Arda
VardaValar1: Nope. Eru was the source of the Flame Imperishable
Pengolodh: focal point, if you will.
Eonwe Valar: "Ellaia" - Elvish name of the Outer Sea, encircling Arda: referred to also as the Outer Ocean and the Encircling Sea.
Pengolodh: He set the Flame Imperishable within it.
Eonwe Valar: *Ellaia = Ekkaia
ArPharazonV: yes, within Arda
ArPharazonV: not Arda within the Flame
Pengolodh: Right, that's what I meant.
Eonwe Valar: Arda- "The Realm", name of the Earth as the Kingdom of Manw�
Pengolodh has left the room.
VardaValar1: Poor Pen
ArPharazonV: ok
ArPharazonV: so Valinor is the western edge of Arda?
VardaValar1: whoa, I'm seeing World there, not world
VardaValar1: Yes, Phar
ArPharazonV: the Outer Ocean being effectively outside Arda?
VardaValar1: Pen's leaving
ArPharazonV: so... the walls of the world=edge of Arda, and the Walls of Night=edge of Ea?
Eonwe Valar: Anyone remember the name of the third air?
ArPharazonV: Vai... Vai-something
VardaValar1: I used to, mind is shot.
ArPharazonV: Vainya or something?
Eonwe Valar: it's not
Eonwe Valar: that name isn't in the Index of the Sil.
ArPharazonV: well, it doesn't necessarily have to be
Eonwe Valar: trivia bit :Rochallor was the horse of Fingolfin, so Elves have been using horses to get around for quite some time.
ArPharazonV: it may just not have been mentioned in the published Sil
Eonwe Valar: yes it does, Phar :} the otehr two are.
Eonwe Valar: and I know I've seen it somewhere.
ArPharazonV: what's the first one?
Eonwe Valar: Ilmen and Ekkaia are both named
VardaValar1: Nahar was the father of horses
ArPharazonV: oh, Ekkaia is the one I called Vai-something
ArPharazonV: you mean the inner one?
VardaValar1: Ilmen, region above the air where the stars are (Sil index)
ArPharazonV: region above the air.... so what's the air itself called?
VardaValar1: dark horsemen terrorized the elves so they would fear Orome
ArPharazonV: I'm quite sure Ekkaia is outside Ilmen
Eonwe Valar: not according to the Sil
VardaValar1: I barely dug up Flame Imperishable quotes
VardaValar1: ok, so we are on the names of the Airs now?
VardaValar1: *getting behind*
ArPharazonV: where does it state that Ekkaia is within Ilmen?
VardaValar1: Phar, do some looking up too : )
ArPharazonV: I'm trying, you know
VardaValar1: okies, I believe you :-)
Eonwe Valar: look up Ekkaia
Eonwe Valar: in the Index
VardaValar1: Not even going to type the Flame stuff, working on airs which used to be memorized
ArPharazonV: "encircling Arda"
VardaValar1: Sil index Ekkaia: Elvish name of the Outer Sea, encircling Arda; referred to also as the Outer Ocean and the Encircling Sea
Eonwe Valar: I swear, someone's addng pages to my Sil Index.
Eonwe Valar: Some of this stuff I don't remember seeing before :}
ArPharazonV: so what does it say about the relationship between Ilmen and Ekkaia?
Eonwe Valar: And I've read my index every time I've gone through the SIl :}
VardaValar1: whee. Look at the first reference under Ekkaia for a pile of stuff
VardaValar1: hehe, Eonwe! I feel that way too
Eonwe Valar: encircling Arda, says nothing about flowing through Ea.
ArPharazonV: and yet, Eonwe, the Walls of Night are both at the edge of Ekkaia and the edge of Ea
VardaValar1: more borders of the world stuff here
ArPharazonV: unless Ilmen is outside the walls of night
VardaValar1: says Ekkaia beyond the Walls of Night
VardaValar1: "Ulmo dwelt from the beginning of Arda in the Outer Ocean"
ArPharazonV: Ekkaia beyond the Walls of Night?
ArPharazonV: that contradicts the Sil
Eonwe Valar: I refer to my quote from the Foreword :}
Eonwe Valar: here we go
Eonwe Valar: In Atlas of Middle Earth, this is what conclusion Karen Wynn Fonstad has drawn.
VardaValar1: I am quoting Sil, Phar
Eonwe Valar: Vista = Inner Air ( Will look for reference afterwards)
Eonwe Valar: Ilmen "Place of Light" (Middle Air)
ArPharazonV: Vista, that was it
Eonwe Valar: Vaiya(Ekkaia) Encircling Seas.
ArPharazonV: Vaiya! that was it!
Eonwe Valar: Lands on far east and far west seem to extend into Ilmen, up to the border of Ekkaia.
Eonwe Valar: at which are the Door of Night in the East and Gates of Morning in the West.
Eonwe Valar: er, switch that
Eonwe Valar: Night in West, Morning in East.
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: Halorm� the tallest mountain in East
Eonwe Valar: Taniquetil obviously the tallest mouontin peroid, so also in the West.
Eonwe Valar: Olor� Mall� (Path of Dreams) passes throug h Vista
Eonwe Valar: Kuma (The Void) is on the outside
Eonwe Valar: Unfortunately, however
Eonwe Valar: She seems to have built this diagram on the geocentric model.
VardaValar1: Ok, so we need to do research on the Airs, with careful referencing for the articles
VardaValar1: Maybe another on the Flame Imperishable, carefully referenced
Eonwe Valar: If we try to translate to a universal model, we still have some interesting stuff to consider.
VardaValar1: I could swear I did this before, sometime
Eonwe Valar: and I wonder if it's even possible.
Eonwe Valar: we did :}
ArPharazonV: and I'm still not sure about the exact nature of the walls of the world... physical, or just geographical?
Eonwe Valar: We've had a couple of chats about this at meetings, and then I remember bringing it up in Council mail one time.
Eonwe Valar: I would say geographical.
ArPharazonV: we know the Walls of Night are physical, and impenetrable by nothing save through the Doors
VardaValar1: chats yes, but it needs articles. A pain to try to find all these teeny references scattered so many ways.
VardaValar1: Needs brought together
ArPharazonV: so... no actual physical wall? no mountain-range even?
ArPharazonV: well, that solves a lot for me
Eonwe Valar: Unless we assume that in the Second Age, Eru not only changed the nature of Arda, but of Ea, this gets really interesting.
VardaValar1: The model will change according to which book or even part of book
VardaValar1: so we have to be really careful on referencing
Eonwe Valar: Aye
VardaValar1: We can show the changing model, which could be very interesting
VardaValar1: On a quick side note, in the rp, are we just waiting for Haran's tale?
Eonwe Valar: The Sil seems to be pushing for a universal model, so it's a matter of getting everything to make sense in that fashion without heavy contradiction.
Eonwe Valar: That's what I'm waiting for, aye.
VardaValar1: On the Sil, we can list the versions for each item we locate.
ArPharazonV: I had no idea what I was waiting for exactly... but I guess I was waiting for you all...
VardaValar1: I used to know this stuff much better, but got away from it
VardaValar1: I was waiting for Haran's story too
ArPharazonV: since I don't have much I want to contribute to the story during the night
Eonwe Valar: Sort of a shame we didn't use AIM sooner
Eonwe Valar: A readthrough of our old chats on this would be nice.
VardaValar1: Some say it's a shame we use AIM now ;-)
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Chats are also intended to spawn more coherent articles
VardaValar1: Get us thinking and looking up stuff
VardaValar1: It is very hard to find it all during a chat, and it keeps bouncing from one subject to another
VardaValar1: You know there are two Gondolin stories in one book but only one is referenced much in the index? That kind of thing makes us work : )
VardaValar1: Okies, shall we let Phar get some sleep? : )
VardaValar1: I'll have to ask Arathorn about his tale next time I see him, WoW or email
Eonwe Valar: no, make him stay up :}
VardaValar1: Phar, do we need articles on locations of where Valar live?
VardaValar1: I remember digging all that up before. I don't trust other people's maps as much after doing the research myself
VardaValar1: Stay up, Phar! ;-)
ArPharazonV: hmm? what? I was making some posts in the Highguard-forum
VardaValar1: What articles do we need?
VardaValar1: articles on locations of where Valar live?
ArPharazonV: ehrm...
VardaValar1: What would have answered your question best?
ArPharazonV: my question was originally about the walls of the world, the walls of night, and Nienna's place, and that seems to be cleared up now, mostly
ArPharazonV: so what we need... if we don't have it yet... is Nienna's location
VardaValar1: So "Walls of the World", "Walls of Night"
VardaValar1: It is west of Mandos' Halls
VardaValar1: Mandos's Halls are on the westward side of Aman
ArPharazonV: do we know more? I assume that's what you mean with articles about Valar's residences?
ArPharazonV: *Valars'
VardaValar1: We might if we research
VardaValar1: There was a ton more I did not go into
Eonwe Valar: no, Valar's was right
ArPharazonV: oh, right
ArPharazonV: Valar... plural
VardaValar1: Aye, Valars'
VardaValar1: All residences
ArPharazonV: in that case, it might be the Valar's residences
ArPharazonV: and Valar is plural
VardaValar1: Those can go under places, and under each Vala
Eonwe Valar: Valar is already plural
ArPharazonV: there is no such thing as Valars
VardaValar1: heh
VardaValar1: ok
VardaValar1: Valar's, right
VardaValar1: Okies, so we have a list of articles that are needed
ArPharazonV: oh, btwe
ArPharazonV: *btw
ArPharazonV: not "Walls of the World"
ArPharazonV: it's "walls of the world"
ArPharazonV: make that distinction ;-)
ArPharazonV: perhaps Walls of the world, if you like...
VardaValar1: ok, putting these on the list of wanted articles which we have on the Encyc
VardaValar1: Helps me keep track of what is needed
VardaValar1: I still have over three major articles in progress, plus navigation
ArPharazonV: hmm... after tonight, I might consider delivering my first article...
VardaValar1: You don't expect me to be playing WoW do you? ;-)
VardaValar1: That would be a pleasure, Phar
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After-Meeting:
ArPharazonV: hmm.... I'm now on approximately 58 and a half... think I could make it to 60 in 11 real-time days?
VardaValar1: sure
Eonwe Valar: if you skipped homwork and some sleep, yeah
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: I got my 60 faster than planned going after Frostsabres
ArPharazonV: for you see, there's a high-guard guild fair on the 16th
VardaValar1: Take your time and enjoy the game : )
ArPharazonV: with a duelling competition, arena deathmatch, etc...
VardaValar1: good ol' PvP
ArPharazonV: and I was wondering if would be lvl 60 at that time...
ArPharazonV: *if I
VardaValar1: Since you guys play differently than we do, I can't answer your question
ArPharazonV: considering I'm gaining about a level a week, it should be doable... but still...
VardaValar1: You would have to ask High Guard
ArPharazonV: High Guard has no influence on my levelling ;-)
VardaValar1: Apparently they do. You want to be 60 for their PvP fair
ArPharazonV: yes, yes... but I'm not really changing my pace for it, though... if I'm lvl 59, so be it
VardaValar1: okies
ArPharazonV: I was just wondering if I would make it, considering my current pace...
ArPharazonV: but I guess you know less about that than I
VardaValar1: I am ftp'ing the article list
VardaValar1: I do not care about PvP. I level fast enough at PvE
VardaValar1: too fast sometimes
ArPharazonV: I don't really care about PvP either, I level at PvE all the time...
aranfinwe: too fast? do some quests/places have lvl req's?
VardaValar1: I declare After meeting ;-)
VardaValar1: Yes
ArPharazonV: yes, they do, aranfinwe.. but not really a maximum
VardaValar1: Quests gray out before I get to them too often
VardaValar1: or go green
ArPharazonV: I have done lvl 1 quests when I was 30
ArPharazonV: was fun, though, smashing kobolds with a single moonfire...
VardaValar1: I do low level quests at 60 sometimes to be helpful or while farming just to make it interesting
VardaValar1: hehe
aranfinwe: ah, thx phar (lvl cap would have prolly been better term)
ArPharazonV: there is no absolute level-cap for any quest or zone
aranfinwe: I see
ArPharazonV: sure, they'll turn green or grey, but you can still do it
VardaValar1: Just might kill you to try it ;-)
Eonwe Valar: I'm down to 14 quests on my Paladin :}
VardaValar1: We must fix that, Eonwe!
ArPharazonV: just get less experience and/or reputation for them
aranfinwe: prolly not going to do so as early as I would like, recent jump in gas prices has killed all disposable income
aranfinwe: (I have to drive too much for my current job)
VardaValar1: oh man. Sorry to hear that Finwe
aranfinwe: really need a new one
VardaValar1: Distance may start being a criterion for a lot of jobs if prices stay high
aranfinwe: heh, I may have to cut out on buying lunches while at work, too
ArPharazonV: btw, I'm still constantly edging my log-maximum of 20... but that should solve itself as I work through the Ungoro Crater in a few days
VardaValar1: Carry sack lunch? Do they have a microwave?
aranfinwe: all of our stores have microwaves, but not all have fridges
VardaValar1: ahh, bring a cooler with ice from your refrigerator?
aranfinwe: the other problem being: getting up early enough to otherwise fix lunch before heading in
VardaValar1: I brown-bagged a lot ; )
aranfinwe: praps
VardaValar1: take a sandwich - fast to make : )
VardaValar1: Or something you can just heat up
VardaValar1: leftovers
aranfinwe: lol, sometimes, I'm bad enough I don't even have time to make sandwich in mornings...
VardaValar1: Cook enough stew for a week and freeze it in portion bags. Or other items
VardaValar1: Then grab the freezer bag on your way out the door
VardaValar1: Have a huge barbecue on the weekend : )
aranfinwe: all possible ideas, but best idea is to just find new job...
VardaValar1: or whenever
VardaValar1: Do both! hehe
VardaValar1: Easy to suggest things; harder to do
aranfinwe: lol, my "weekends" consist of Tuesdays and Fridays
VardaValar1: Use any day you can then
VardaValar1: You won't cook both days anyway
VardaValar1: Buy pot pies? : )
VardaValar1: Hungryman dinners?
VardaValar1: cheese and crackers?
VardaValar1: heheh
VardaValar1: Up to you what to eat
aranfinwe: cheese and crackers would be least likely to bust current budget
VardaValar1: ouch
aranfinwe: I'm still trying to figure out my budget for this month...
VardaValar1: peanut butter and jelly?
ArPharazonV: go 3 days on a grain of rice
VardaValar1: cabbage and fish and rice and beans
VardaValar1: Shoot rats, no no no. Getting too silly, must stop now
aranfinwe: I have to get new tires for car, take car in for servicing... pay for my first speeding ticket in 4 years...
VardaValar1: and take a Defensive Driving course to prevent insurance going up
aranfinwe: all extra costs than my normal monthly ones
aranfinwe: that one is a definate :-)
VardaValar1: evil costs there
aranfinwe: yah
aranfinwe: tho my current insurance is just under 80/mon
aranfinwe: which is apparently pretty good for a 25 yr old male :-)
VardaValar1: yes : )
aranfinwe: I hate to do it, but I will prolly have to ask parents for a little assistance this month :P
VardaValar1: That sounds familiar too : )
VardaValar1: from the other end
aranfinwe: I absolutely HATE doing it, but I don't see any other way for it this month, unless I sign up a new job w/ some sort of decent signing bonus (highly unlikely)
aranfinwe: I haven't had to ask for money in over a year, was hoping I wouldn't have to do it anymore
VardaValar1: As long as they are alive.... : )
aranfinwe: oh well, maybe I'll just ask for help as my bday gift :-)
aranfinwe: true
ArPharazonV: it's what they're there for! *says the twenty-year-old who still lives on his parents' costs at home*
VardaValar1: Lots of networking you can do in the guild. Sometimes can help locate opportunities
aranfinwe: true... tho I wonder how many can do so for NE Florida :-)
VardaValar1: We need to list our states
VardaValar1: Some computer jobs can be done from a distance, like web pages, logos
Eonwe Valar: I'm sure we have other members in Florida.
ArPharazonV: hmm... not sure... won't it partially disintegrate our borderless community's cohesion?
aranfinwe: the kicker is, I like who I work for and with, but I'm just working and driving too much for little
Eonwe Valar: We already have where we're from on the Members page, and it's been there since the beginning of the page.
VardaValar1: Phar, what would?
VardaValar1: I try to put states on the Activity page
VardaValar1: don't know a lot of them
ArPharazonV: the detailed listing of our locations, seperations of state-groups etc...
VardaValar1: Some of us try to get together in real life when we find we are able
ArPharazonV: but if it's already there, it won't be much more
VardaValar1: We use it to get closer together
Eonwe Valar: It's nice to know where people are from so you can try to get together for gaming and such if normal times don't cut it.
ArPharazonV: meh, I suppose it has more upsides than downsides...
VardaValar1: We get a kick out of knowing states. It does not separate us. They are the same nation and we may travel there at some odd time
VardaValar1: We move all around, from one ocean to the next
ArPharazonV: true, true
VardaValar1: To us, it is not separation
aranfinwe: not only that, but if you plan on visiting an area, someone might know some local landmarks and the like :-)
VardaValar1: Correct
VardaValar1: Suggest places to stop
ArPharazonV: yet is it not in peoples' nature to cluster into groups based on common factors?
VardaValar1: It is called, Tolkien : )
VardaValar1: We already have common ground
VardaValar1: Do you feel unwanted by the Western Hemisphere in some way? : )
ArPharazonV: as such, is it not possible that the valar guild, even with Tolkien being a common factor, will slightly split up into groups, though the distinction is not readily noticable at the surface?
ArPharazonV: well, unwanted, not as such
VardaValar1: Dreamlord came to the US for college
VardaValar1: It has never been a problem
aranfinwe: prolly not
VardaValar1: We've been listing countries and states for over 7 years, when known
aranfinwe: our primary reason for meeting in first place is tolkien
ArPharazonV: well, we'll see what happens... perhaps I'm just focusing on peoples' dark sides too much...
VardaValar1: Phar, you keep coming here when you know we are not from next door
ArPharazonV: hehe
VardaValar1: It is not a problem, except the time zone
ArPharazonV: perhaps we are the lucky exception indeed..
VardaValar1: It's pretty normal for the US
ArPharazonV: perhaps our inherent honor and love for Tolkien does completely suffocate our geographical seperation...
ArPharazonV: perhaps I'm seeing disasters coming where they will just as much stay away
VardaValar1: Scandinavian countries have a lot of cooperative nature too
VardaValar1: Phar, it's nothing new and we have not had a disaster
ArPharazonV: perhaps I'm just paranoid ;-)
VardaValar1: Take a look at our pages. The listings have been there a long time
VardaValar1: We like you anyway : )
aranfinwe: as much as anything else, I think it's the respect that we show each other
VardaValar1: We know all who are here are worthy of respect
ArPharazonV: seperation, and knowing others' locations, can feed prejudice in an ignorant world... but indeed, our experience and respect succeeds that
VardaValar1: We are in a process of removing separation
VardaValar1: I think the internet is a wonderful thing for that reason : )
VardaValar1: I think it's cool to be able to talk to someone from Denmark or Turkey or the next city over : )
Eonwe Valar: I don't see how knowing a location can feed prejudice.
ArPharazonV: hehe
aranfinwe: heh
ArPharazonV: well, it won't feed prejudice, Eonwe, as such... it'll just give it a target
VardaValar1: There is so much great stuff they can tell us
aranfinwe: true, but only if we allow it to do so
VardaValar1: We have not had a problem in all these years : )
Eonwe Valar: If people want a target for their frustrations, they're going to find it with or without geographical location.
ArPharazonV: for example, if you had a prejudice against Dutch people, it would not feed your prejudice to know that I am one...
ArPharazonV: but if you knew I was one, it would be a lot less comfortable for me ;-)
aranfinwe: only if it showed...
VardaValar1: If anything, we would find our prejudices being removed to find that those people are worthy of respect
aranfinwe: which is why I brought up the respect earlier
ArPharazonV: true, true, our respect and open minds can do that...
ArPharazonV: but that is not always the case
Eonwe Valar: If people are going to make rude comments about the Dutch, they probably shouldn't be here anyway :}
aranfinwe: lol
ArPharazonV: luckily, I can count myself lucky in this guild
VardaValar1: We have learned that it is good to avoid politics and religion, but that is true between next door neighbors ;-)
Eonwe Valar: or about Americans, or British, etc.
VardaValar1: We would kick someone who was abusive
VardaValar1: Besides, we should not allow our skins to be excessively thin
ArPharazonV: we force ourselves to look further... and that is a good thing
VardaValar1: Force?
VardaValar1: Why not enjoy the differences? I see no forcing in that
ArPharazonV: I mean by setting our polite rules, weeding out the rude ones...
VardaValar1: Variety is interesting : )
VardaValar1: ah, I get it
ArPharazonV: those who are in, of course, have no problems with looking further
ArPharazonV: but as a whole, we 'force' ourselves to do so
Eonwe Valar: Politics and religion should definitely be avoided during meetings, but if you want to talk about it outside of those, make sure you can do so respectfully to all involved with you and I have no real problems.
VardaValar1: We have had people who have straightened up their behavior for the pleasure of hanging out here : )
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: Indeed
ArPharazonV: that is exactly what I mean, Varda... we 'force' ourselves to straighten our behavior
Eonwe Valar: I am how I am :}
VardaValar1: Some do. Most of us act this way because we like to act this way
ArPharazonV: indeed, so we do...
VardaValar1: Others see that it can be a rewarding experience to act this way
ArPharazonV: yet if you compared my behavior in here, in the war3 forum, and in real life... you might find some differences
VardaValar1: Then they enjoy it too
VardaValar1: You feel that you need to change your behavior to fit in with those crowds
ArPharazonV: it's like I am now capable of change the settings on my personality, by necessarily adapting to different situations
VardaValar1: Yet if you acted as you do here, maybe others would start acting as you do to adapt to you
ArPharazonV: I don't actually force myself to act the way I do in real life or in that forum
VardaValar1: Why not be the one they adapt to?
VardaValar1: Give them an example
ArPharazonV: a change comes over me, I can release a portion of my self-control, and vent what I am not normally allowing myself to vent
VardaValar1: Vent it the right way
VardaValar1: You already know how, from being here
ArPharazonV: yet I enjoy both 'personalities', Varda
ArPharazonV: it feels good to change once in a while
ArPharazonV: and it feels better knowing that I can change, practically at will
VardaValar1: I need to leave, guys
VardaValar1: I am myself, no matter where I am
aranfinwe: heh, it be about that time for me
Eonwe Valar: take care Varda.
VardaValar1: What you are, is up to you
VardaValar1: Thank you
VardaValar1: Namarie
ArPharazonV: take care, Varda... I shall save
ArPharazonV: Namarie
aranfinwe: namarie
VardaValar1 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: I too am myself wherever I am... yet that 'self' has different aspects which I can magnify or tie up at needed situations...
Eonwe Valar: Think I'll go as well. Trying to push for 300 Blacksmithing tonight.
ArPharazonV: or at wanted situations
ArPharazonV: indeed, I shall go too
ArPharazonV: good luck
Eonwe Valar: you too.
ArPharazonV: I got to 299 first-aid today
Eonwe Valar: congrats ;}
ArPharazonV: just a few more mageweave or runecloth, and I shall reach 300 tomorrow...
aranfinwe: namarie all, time for me to depart for home (been at work)
Eonwe Valar: take care Finw� :}
ArPharazonV: namarie
Eonwe Valar: take care all, have fun, and good night :}
aranfinwe: you guys take care as well
ArPharazonV: Namarie all! I shall save now!
aranfinwe has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: take care :}
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
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