Valar Guild

September 25, 2005 Meeting

5pm ESDT (GMT -5)

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
IRC:, join channel #valarguild. Public Chat Valar
Sigma Chat: click on  Type in your guild name as the user name.
Say a greeting when you enter on any of these platforms so we'll know you're there!
Bridging program by Farmer Maggot-(V) in operation by Farmer himself.
Back to News
Transcript work by: Ar-Pharazon-(V), Eonwe-(Valar),
and Varda-(Valar)

Attending list and who belongs to that odd AIM name anyway?  :)  (8):
    ArPharazonV, Arwen V1, Eonwe Valar (presiding), FladrifV, Farmer Maggot-(V)/bnetValar, Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V, Ulmo-(Valar)/HeruRasa

Meeting Begins
    Hurricane Rita:
        Varda's family
    Ar-Pharazon going to France for a week, starting Sunday. Archaeology class is visiting caves.
    Farmer Maggot will be camping Columbus Day, Sunday Oct 12.
    Varda's pages
    Games page
       Updates by members
    AIM upgrade, without using message
    WarCraft 3
        New patch
        Orodreth starting on making a new LotR WC3 map.
          USA Lothar: Friday gaming
    WarCraft 2 soundtracks
    Eonwe's topic: What would it take for Elves to descend to such a level that they would be seen upon the other side as a personage of shadow rather than light?

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
FallenGlory has entered the room.
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
FladrifV has entered the room.
Orodreth V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: will join soon
ArPharazonV has left the room.
FladrifV: Aiya
Arwen V1 has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: heya all
FarmerMaggotV: Aiya
aranfinwe has entered the room.
aranfinwe: aiyas
Eonwe Valar: We'll give it a couple more minutes to see who all comes in, but I've sent invitations to everyone I could on my list.
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
Arwen V1: yay
Eonwe Valar: Heya :}
Arwen V1: hey =)
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: sorry about that, had to close WoW first, which crashes sometimes... so it would be a mess if I was in here at the time
Eonwe Valar: wb
Eonwe Valar: np
Eonwe Valar: Taking roll and gathering news.
ArPharazonV: so, how is everyone?
FarmerMaggotV: good =)
Eonwe Valar: I've got suilenroco, Gwaihir, sauronjag, DemonicHorde, and Xseanzee disco invited but not in here yet. If you have someone on your list you can invite that isn't here or among those names, please do so.
ArPharazonV: my buddy-list is pretty out-of-date, with all the new members...
Eonwe Valar: ok
Eonwe Valar: OK, we'll begin shortly. looks like we've got about everyone
Eonwe Valar: Quiet group in pre-meeting today :}
ArPharazonV: meh, what can I say... failed Jailbreak a few times this week..
ArPharazonV: got my new paladin almost to lvl 12
ArPharazonV: created 7 alts on one server!
Eonwe Valar: I have trouble finding the time for the chars I have now :}
Eonwe Valar: ok, let's begin.

Eonwe Valar: Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.
Eonwe Valar: Member News:
Eonwe Valar: Due to the impending landfall of Hurricane Rita on the Texas coast, Varda and her family had to head inland, and so are without internet for a while.
FarmerMaggotV: no further word on her?
Eonwe Valar: She's guessing maybe a week.
Eonwe Valar: She arrived safely :}
FarmerMaggotV: ah =)
Eonwe Valar: despite long traffic jams and such.
Menelvagor Valar: Ah, squeeze me, WoW taking up a little more time than expected.
Eonwe Valar: There was speculation my area of Texas would get hit by some of the hurricane as well, but I haven't seen it, and it looks like it went east of me instead.
Eonwe Valar: Anything that can't wait a week, you can go ahead and send to me while Varda's away.
Eonwe Valar: Fangorn and Eowyn at least went with her, probably Bilbo and Sauron as well.  [Note: correct.]
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news?

Eonwe Valar: ok, on the Web News then.
Eonwe Valar: Of course the above means Varda's pages will be at least a week without update, but those are the only ones affected. The Games Page is still on schedule, and so are other pages by other webweavers.
ArPharazonV: oh, bit of member news: I won't be here next meeting
ArPharazonV: going to France for a week, starting on Sunday
Eonwe Valar: Cool! have fun :}
ArPharazonV: coming back late on Saturday, so it should not hinder the meeting after that
FarmerMaggotV: when's Columbus day?
ArPharazonV: we're going with our Archaeology-class :-)
Eonwe Valar: October 12th as I recall, Farmer.
ArPharazonV: visit famous caves etc
Eonwe Valar: sounds great, Phar :}
FarmerMaggotV: ah, well I'll be gone that weekend, I'll try to have something for the Bridge worked out
Eonwe Valar: ok, thanks
Eonwe Valar: Doing something special?
FarmerMaggotV: just camping
Eonwe Valar: sounds like fun too :}
Eonwe Valar: don't forget the graham crackers for the s'mores :}
FarmerMaggotV: heh
Eonwe Valar: Any other member news before we continue with Web news? :}
Eonwe Valar: Going once :}
Menelvagor Valar: nope.
Eonwe Valar: twice :}
Eonwe Valar: thrice :}
Eonwe Valar: In further web news, Varda mentioned her AIM program is warning her to upgrae soon or she'll be blocked.
ArPharazonV: ouch, hope she'll have access in time then
Eonwe Valar: I did not recieve such a warning today despite putting off an upgrade for yet another week, but if you have problems entering the meeting, make sure you are upgraded to the current version.
Eonwe Valar: Games Page updates if you haven't sent them already, should be sent in this week. It's coming down to the last minute :}
ArPharazonV: currently at 5.9.3861... is that the latest?
Eonwe Valar: Not sure Phar :}
Eonwe Valar: 5.9 something sounds about right.
HeruRasa has entered the room.
HeruRasa: heyas
Eonwe Valar: anyone remember how to upgrade AIM without the message?
ArPharazonV: hey
Arwen V1: under My AIM
ArPharazonV: ?
Arwen V1: is a option Upgrade AIM
Arwen V1: on your buddylist.
Eonwe Valar: It can be found under My AIM.
Eonwe Valar: pardon, Arwen said that already :}
ArPharazonV: can't find it?
ArPharazonV: meh, maybe you can only upgrade when you're not current...
Eonwe Valar: Quite likely :}
Eonwe Valar: So now everyone knows how to make sure they're upgraded.
Eonwe Valar: Again, if you find yourself having problems getting into the chat room, make sure you're upgraded to the newest version.
Eonwe Valar: Any further web news?

Eonwe Valar: ok, on to Gaming News then:
Eonwe Valar: Warcraft 3 has a new patch out, 1.19. Nothing groundbreaking, but adds several of the downloadable maps to the blizzard maps folder, and adds some new features to the World Editor.
FarmerMaggotV: just out of curiousity, what's new in the World Editor?
Eonwe Valar: I'd have to open the patch notes for details. They changed how a few things worked.
Eonwe Valar: Patch didn't update my patch notes file apparently. have to refer to the WC3 guide.
Eonwe Valar: hmm there was also a 1.19b patch that did only one thing.
Eonwe Valar: Some ability renames, text cleanups, readjustments of category positions, and some script generation error fixes.
Eonwe Valar: Pretty long list, to much to name here, Farmer.
Eonwe Valar: And three new trigger functions, one new event.
FarmerMaggotV: ah
Eonwe Valar: For those who want to read the list of changes in 1.19..
Eonwe Valar: WoW:
Eonwe Valar: The Friday questing kicked off a bit early with Eonw�, Elatan, Alatar, and Orom� getting together for some Blackfathom Deeps.
Eonwe Valar: We got the two quests from the Argent Dawn in Darnassus and the one from the guy in Auberdine.
Eonwe Valar: We were on a roll, but unfortunately, due to our time constraints, we were only able to gather most of the needed brainstems and find Thaeldrid.
Eonwe Valar: Always another chance for BFD next week :}
Eonwe Valar: Anything from you guild guys in Europe?
ArPharazonV: a very succesful MC-raid, for starters..
Eonwe Valar: killed Onyxia or such ? :}
Eonwe Valar: ah :}
ArPharazonV: wasn't there, but I heard they got the first 5 bosses or so in one try
ArPharazonV: as for me, some failed BRD-attempts... meh, I'll get those quests some day
Eonwe Valar: I know the feeling :}
ArPharazonV: got the first piece of the shadowcraft-set in Scholo, which is apparently one of the best sets for feral druids ;-)
ArPharazonV: and, of course, my 7 alts
Eonwe Valar: It's techinally a Rogue set, but I can see how it would help a cat form Druid :}
ArPharazonV: not only cat-form
ArPharazonV: even for bear-form, it's one of the best sets
ArPharazonV: perhaps mixed with the Cadaverous one, but still
ArPharazonV: and, of course, there are some great bear-items... I bid on the Warden Staff today, which is supposedly the best bear-weapon in the game so far
ArPharazonV: but nothing in sets for that
Eonwe Valar: good luck on winning that :}
ArPharazonV: warding cloak and warden staff... anything starting with "ward" is starting to sound good to me :-)
ArPharazonV: heh, thanks
Eonwe Valar: hehe
Eonwe Valar: Any more gaming news?
ArPharazonV: well, a few War2-soundtracks released again
ArPharazonV: orc 2 and orc 3
Eonwe Valar: Start sending me Tolkien topics as well, or you're going to get mine :}
Orodreth V: I;ll start playing WC3 again tomorrow.
ArPharazonV: great news for me, that is :-)
ArPharazonV: slowly, my collection grows..
Eonwe Valar: You know, if you own the old WC2 and EXP cds, you can play them in a cd player, right?
ArPharazonV: and ... so great for beas
ArPharazonV: *bears
Eonwe Valar: Last chance for gaming news :}
ArPharazonV: well, I could try that, Eonwe... but this way I have all the series at once in one map, downloaded from one page... pretty handy
Eonwe Valar: aye
Orodreth V: It's called 'ripping', Ar. PRetty easy if its CD-player compatable.
ArPharazonV: :-)
Orodreth V: At any rate, my only other news was that I'm going to star work on (another) WC3 map next week.
Eonwe Valar: OK, on to Tolkien chat :}
Orodreth V: Most likely a LotR thing.
Eonwe Valar: Cool Orodreth :} Good luck and let us know how it turns out :}

Eonwe Valar: OK, Tolkien Chat : you get stuck with my Topic today :}
Eonwe Valar: Upon the "other side" Glorfindel is seen as a being of light.
Eonwe Valar: It would probably be safe to assume that the Ainur, when they chose to be seen in such form, would appear in similar manner to those who could see them.
Eonwe Valar: However, since Melkor turned his thought to evil, and eventually was no longer able to take a fair form, he likely would appear in a less than shining way to those who could see him.
FarmerMaggotV: well, I'm out -- goin' w/ dad to get groceries and a sub for me =)
Eonwe Valar: We know that there are unsavory types even among the Elves, Maeglin and Eol among them. What would it take for Elves to descend to such a level that they would be seen upon the other side as a personage of shadow rather than light?
Orodreth V: Hrm.
Orodreth V: I could only guess spending too much time with Melkor would do it.
Eonwe Valar: So then F�anor, had he lived, would've continued to shine brightly?
ArPharazonV: perhaps those Elven slaves under the eye and curse of Morgoth, would be slightly diminished...
ArPharazonV: Feanor? I'd consider him shining red.... not sure why
ArPharazonV: he may be aggressive, ruthless, and prowd.... but he's still definitely against Morgoth
HeruRasa: do we know that any elf was ever seen as anything except "shinning light"?
Eonwe Valar: What qualities of F�anor would prevent such a decline?
Orodreth V: Well, he did fight Morgoth, for all the good it did.
Orodreth V: But is Morgoth the only evil? No.
Orodreth V: and I think that if fighting him creates "bad" death, ect. it is just as bad as collaborating with him.
Eonwe Valar: Those that were seen as a shining light in some manner were typically the more honorable of the Noldor, like Glorfindel.
Eonwe Valar: There is the passage that mentions a white flame spring from Fingon's helm when it was cloven in Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
Eonwe Valar: Fingon had rescued Maedhros when Maedhros was chained atop Thangorodrim.
FladrifV: time to sleep
FladrifV: namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie
FladrifV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: We do know that Saruman's passing was described as a grey mist, and Sauron's as a dark shadow.
HeruRasa: What would it take for Elves to descend to such a level that they would be seen upon the other side as a personage of shadow rather than light?
Eonwe Valar: That's the question, aye Ulmo.
HeruRasa: Is there any reference that any ever was?
Eonwe Valar: None that spring to mind right now Ulmo, but we do know that the Eldar were similar to the Valar in the manner of their f�a.
Eonwe Valar: Valar = Ainur.
ArPharazonV: and indeed, it happened to Sauron and Saruman... who were once noble amongst the Maiar, probably
Eonwe Valar: Sauron was the greatest of the Maiar of Aul� and is still remembered among them.
ArPharazonV: yup
ArPharazonV: Saruman wasn't such a bad guy either
Eonwe Valar: correction, he was great among the Maiar of Aul�
HeruRasa: I like conjecture sometimes, but with no reference to Noldor ever appearing as shadow I don't see how I could even suggest what it would take, or even say it was possible.
Eonwe Valar: Based on what we know of the nature of Elves, their similarity to the Ainur and what we know of the Ainur?
Arwen V1: Sorry, have to run! Namarie!
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
HeruRasa: Well, if Feanor didn't appear as shadow, then it must take a lot :-)
Arwen V1 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: or Maeglin
Eonwe Valar: good answer :}
Eonwe Valar: Look what it took for Morgoth?
ArPharazonV: heck, if it was up to me, even Saeros would... but it's not :-)
Eonwe Valar: er, scratch the ? and add either ! or . to your liking.
HeruRasa: ? works too, we don't know at what point it happened :-)
Eonwe Valar: We know he had countless eons :}
Eonwe Valar: before the fashioning of the world to get a head start :}
ArPharazonV: he was the primary source of all evil... I think that might do the trick after some time
Eonwe Valar: Think F�anor could've found the fast track? He's pretty good at anything he puts his mind to :}
ArPharazonV: even Saruman appeared as grey... who do you think has done more wrongs?
ArPharazonV: well, grey cloud.. but hey, you referenced it
HeruRasa: Saruman was an Istari, so not really a direct correlation
Eonwe Valar: Saruman was Maia in nature though.
Eonwe Valar: his fate was a little wierd since he was bound to a physical body, but he was a Maia.
ArPharazonV: if you can compare Elves to the Ainur, I sure think you can do the same thing with the Istari..
Eonwe Valar: Saruman might've started on the way back at the Ainulindall�, but it wasn't something awakened in him until he had a physical form that was afflicted by the problems of mortals.
Eonwe Valar: From UT, it seems he had a touch of arrogance even as a Maia.
Eonwe Valar: Might've been helped along by Sauron, who might've also been helped along by Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: Just conjecturing here.
HeruRasa: Well, to get back to the original question: We need an adjective that implies something humongous to answer the question.
Eonwe Valar: darkening?
Eonwe Valar: falling?
HeruRasa: Were any characters noted to appear in any shadowy or grey form who were not directly manipulated by Morgoth or Sauron?
HeruRasa: It may be that normal selfishness, greed, etc are not enough in any form or quantity
Eonwe Valar: Frodo was stabbed by the Nazgul, and healed seemed to rather have have a quality of light as I recall.
Eonwe Valar: digging for quote
Eonwe Valar: ok, got it.
Eonwe Valar: "But to the wizard's eye there was a faint change, just a hint as it were of a transperancy, about him, and especially about the left hand that lay outside upon the coverlet.
Eonwe Valar: ...
Eonwe Valar: He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can."
Eonwe Valar: The ellippses of course indicating a few senetences that had little bearing to the conversation IMO.
Eonwe Valar: The point being that while the Noldor could arguably shine as they do because of their stay in Aman, it seems that it is possible by viture of one's... virtue, to also shine, if in a lesser manner.
Eonwe Valar: If this can occur without interference of the Valar, why would Melkor or Sauron be needed to make one "darker"?
Menelvagor Valar: bedtime for me unfortunately.
Eonwe Valar: sleep well Menelvagor.
Menelvagor Valar: sorry I was afk most the time, was trying to gather the remaining 2 pieces for my defias armor.
HeruRasa: namarie
Menelvagor Valar: namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie
Eonwe Valar: You missed a good conversation :}
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: well, to be frank, it was a bit because of Sauron... well, his nine servants at least
Eonwe Valar: So Sauron made Frodo shine? :}
HeruRasa: Actually, without Sauron and the Ring, Frodo would be eating another breakfast or having a smoke :-)
Eonwe Valar: quite likely, aye :}
Eonwe Valar: But even with the Ring, he's eating another breakfast and having another smoke, in Aman :}
ArPharazonV: without healing, Frodo would have become a wraith, and pretty translucent to invisible...
ArPharazonV: so it's possible that Sauron did make him 'shine', and his virtue + the healing made him shine in a good way
Orodreth V: ...I had something meaningful to add awhile back, but then I got distracted. Bugger.
Eonwe Valar: hmm that's an interesting point, Pharazon. So the Nazgul then "shone" ?
Orodreth V: More of an anti-shone, I think he's getting at..
Eonwe Valar: I just went over that, it mentions the hands having a pale light on Weathertop....
ArPharazonV: anti-shone, yes.... what was it you said? "a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can"
ArPharazonV: so Sauron took care of the glass... and the light was made by the healing and Frodo's virtue
Eonwe Valar: well, The Witch-King's hand did.
ArPharazonV: I'd say that anything living partially in the spirit-world would have a shine of sorts, at least on that side
Eonwe Valar: Sort of the effect of being turned into a wraith. it was "wearing" his body away as did the Rings to mortals.
ArPharazonV: and as we know, the Elves lived partially in the shadow-world... and it was there that Glorfindel shone brightly
Eonwe Valar: wouldn't call it the shadow world :}
Eonwe Valar: "other side" or "unseen world" would work better.
ArPharazonV: meh, allright
ArPharazonV: my point still stands
Eonwe Valar: Shadow world implies a link with Morgoth.
Eonwe Valar: or his cronies.
ArPharazonV: "for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power."
Eonwe Valar: Ah, but then we cannot generalize this to all Elves, can we?
ArPharazonV: nope, nope
ArPharazonV: but why should we? all we knew about was Glorfindel
ArPharazonV: so maybe those not of Aman didn't even shine
Eonwe Valar: Glorfindel was our main example.
ArPharazonV: it seems Gandalf calls it the "wraith-world"
Eonwe Valar: Eol and Maeglin being examples of bad Elves, or F�anor to equally match Glorfindel.
ArPharazonV: right, but of none of those do we have any evidence that they shone
Eonwe Valar: F�anor fits the same qualifications as Glofindel.
ArPharazonV: either in a good or a bad way
Eonwe Valar: *Gorfindel.
Eonwe Valar: *Glorfindel
ArPharazonV: well, allright, so we can assume F�anor did shine... but we know naught of Eol and Maeglin
Eonwe Valar: Maeglin was also half Noldo.
Eonwe Valar: But then we get into a discussion of whether or not these abilities are inherited.
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: Howevever, Gandalf said "may become a glass.. filled with light..."
Eonwe Valar: Didn't say Frodo had already become.
Eonwe Valar: so we can't credit such with his healing.
Eonwe Valar: Again leaving us with a non-Noldo example :}
HeruRasa: Galadriel can make glasses filled with light :-)
ArPharazonV: so, there might be something of Frodo's own value in it... but that doesn't mean he could have shone without the 'help' of the Nine
Eonwe Valar: It may not have been as visible.
ArPharazonV: it just influenced the way he shone
ArPharazonV: if you put a light in a lead box, you'll never see it
Eonwe Valar: The Silmarillion also says the fire of the Elven spirit consumes its body in time.
ArPharazonV: but if you make the box of glass, it's the light itself that makes it shine
Eonwe Valar: so that a sufficiently old good Elf may shine as much or similarly to a Noldo.
ArPharazonV: very true
Eonwe Valar: Assuming the body acts as insulation.
Eonwe Valar: for the soul.
Eonwe Valar: such that only those who lived in Aman are fully revealed on the other side.
Eonwe Valar: or close to it.
ArPharazonV: indeed
Eonwe Valar: I'm going to have to writ eall this down into a cohesive paper :}
ArPharazonV: hehe
Eonwe Valar: So I come to the hypothesis that while influence in some form by either Side (Valar or Morgoth) may speed the process in some direction, it is possible given the right conditions that one could go in either direction more or less on
Eonwe Valar: their own.
Orodreth V: No, that's a conclusion, silly.
Eonwe Valar: Do I have enough evidence to back this up to call it a conclusion?
Orodreth V: A hypothesis would be that if Aniur can influence a Elf's 'shine' then an elf in the company of
ArPharazonV: indeed, more or less, their inner light could grow light or dark... but except for Elves, it would be quite hard to reveal itself on other side, without influence from the Valar
Orodreth V: Morgoth will have a dark 'shine'.
ArPharazonV: who's to say, that if Frodo had not been attacked at Weathertop, he would ever shine in any way... no matter how strong his own light was, there would still be the lead box
Eonwe Valar: until he died.
Eonwe Valar: but the Ring was also wearing on him.
ArPharazonV: yes, but since Hobbits are akin to Men... who can say what happens to Hobbits after death? Except that they would go to Eru
Eonwe Valar: it didn't have as much time as it did on BIlbo or Gollum, but it did act on him.
ArPharazonV: yes, indeed, the Ring was also a way he was influenced by Sauron... but again, without that influence, he would never have 'shone'
ArPharazonV: I'd guess
Eonwe Valar: Bah, I've gotta go afk for a bit.
Eonwe Valar: I'll read when I get back.
ArPharazonV: ok, can't stay long either
Eonwe Valar: For those who've been sticking around, Meeting is adjourned.
Eonwe Valar: Feel free to continue the curent topic in After-meeting.

Orodreth V has left the room.
HeruRasa: Seems we are coming to a close
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: and we still haven't figured how badly an elf had to descend to become shadowy :-)
HeruRasa: bucket loads :-)
HeruRasa: Gonna head out then, we can come up with more detailed quantities next week :-)
ArPharazonV: hehe
HeruRasa: namarie
ArPharazonV: namarie
HeruRasa has left the room.
bnetValar has left the room.
FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: bah, duty calls.
Eonwe Valar: I'll be heading out now.
ArPharazonV: ok
Eonwe Valar: Take care everyone.
ArPharazonV: I'll save and send
ArPharazonV: to you?
ArPharazonV: or Varda?
Eonwe Valar: either or both.
Eonwe Valar: or just me :}
ArPharazonV: well, the point is, I have Varda's email the more ready...
ArPharazonV: but I can look up yours...
Eonwe Valar: deneltir(AT)
Eonwe Valar: there, saved you some time :}
ArPharazonV: hehe
ArPharazonV: do note, this will go on the transcript :-)
Eonwe Valar: I can adjust it so I won't get spam :}  [Note: adjusted by Varda]
Eonwe Valar: or can I?
ArPharazonV: not sure... unfamiliar with hotmail, really
Eonwe Valar: I'll figure something out.
ArPharazonV: ok, I'll send it to you
Eonwe Valar: ok, thanks
Eonwe Valar: take care.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.