Valar Guild

May 29, 2005 Meeting

5pm ESDT (GMT -5)

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Transcript team: Ar-Pharazon-(V), Menelvagor-(Valar), Varda-(Valar)


Attending (11):
    ArathornValar, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, FladrifV, FINARFIN010, Finwe-V/aranfinwe, GilraenV, Haleth-V/Druidfalconwolf, Menelvagor, Olwe/FallenGlory, Orodreth V, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Before-meeting
Meeting Begins
Membership
    Celebrian-(TV): new Tolkieen member
    Fangorn's Birthday 52nd
    Haleth's Birthday 15th
    Menelvagor - asleep but collecting the transcript
Web
    Tolkien Encyclopedia
       Poetry
       Article
    Forum
    Games page
Gaming
    WoW USA
        Friday: Stranglethorn
       Shrine Event planning
    Monkey Island - by Lucas Arts
Tolkien
    Would JRRT have approved of books written after his death in his universe for money?
    Discussion of the current free fan fiction
    We outline our own fan fiction:
          Example of how not to write one. Do not try this at home!
          Actual outline made up on the spot: "What-if" Boromir had not gone as far in his temptation by the Ring?

Before-meeting:
(16:11:43) You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
(16:45:13) Druidfalconwolf has entered the room.
(16:45:31) Druidfalconwolf has left the room.
(16:54:48) ArathornValar has entered the room.
(17:00:54) VardaValar1 has entered the room.
(17:00:59) FallenGlory has entered the room.
(17:01:00) GilraenV has entered the room.
(17:01:00) aranfinwe has entered the room.
(17:01:02) ArPharazonV has entered the room.
VardaValar1 (17:01:03): Aiya!
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Orodreth V has entered the room.
FallenGlory: Howdy
aranfinwe: Aiya
ArPharazonV: heading for astranaar now, see you soon
Orodreth V: Aiya
GilraenV: Aiya folks
VardaValar1: My AIM list isnt' updated. If you see anyone needing an invitation, feel free :-)
VardaValar1: I'm trying to enter SigmaChat, a little slow
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Hey all.
VardaValar1: The Bridge seems to be out
VardaValar1: Or just not up yet
VardaValar1: Shall we start anyway? : )
Eonwe Valar: Go for it :}
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VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
VardaValar1: Membership News:
ArPharazonV has left the room.
VardaValar1: New Tolkien-only member:
VardaValar1: Celebrian-(TV)
VardaValar1: Fangorn-(Valar)'s birthday was on the 25th
VardaValar1: He's 52 now
ArPharazonV has entered the room.
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
ArPharazonV: Aiya, again
VardaValar1: He's over the shoulder and says hello :-)
VardaValar1: Aiyata, Phar
Orodreth V: Grats!
ArPharazonV: who? what? what did I miss?
Orodreth V: My dad is older than him. :-P
ArPharazonV: my pc crashed... anything significant since my last statement?
VardaValar1: VardaValar1: New Tolkien-only member:VardaValar1: Celebrian-(TV)
VardaValar1: VardaValar1: Fangorn-(Valar)'s birthday was on the 25thVardaValar1: He's 52 now
ArPharazonV: congrats!
VardaValar1: That should catch you up : )
VardaValar1: Any other member news?
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VardaValar1: Web News:
ArPharazonV: nothing since I said I was heading to Astranaar? ok...
VardaValar1: Tolkien Encyclopedia:
VardaValar1: Poetry:
VardaValar1: "In the Land of Lorien" by He that Walks Unseen-TV
VardaValar1: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/poetry/IntheLandofLorien.htm
VardaValar1: Article:
VardaValar1: Objects:
VardaValar1: This is the one Celebrian-TV used for her entry to Tolkien-onlies:
VardaValar1: "The Palantir of Amon Sul"
VardaValar1: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/articles/p/palantiri/palantirAmonSul.htm
VardaValar1: We could use more of those palantir articles we've been promised, folks : )
VardaValar1: Forum:
VardaValar1: The upgrade has been made at last
VardaValar1: Eonwe, did you or Menelvagor have more on that?
ArPharazonV: oh, btw, I had to say... Menelvagor's gone to sleep before the meeting, he's left the pc on for transcript-purposes
VardaValar1: Thanks
Eonwe Valar: Just that it's updated, and I'm looking over the options blatantly available :}
VardaValar1: The Forum Admins hope to figure out all the new bells and whistles and how to fix items that have been weirded.
VardaValar1: Thanks, Eonwe : )
VardaValar1: Any other Web News?
Eonwe Valar: I updated the Games Page some :}
VardaValar1: Woot!
VardaValar1: http://valarguild.org/eonwe/
VardaValar1: Any other web news?
Eonwe Valar: I darkened the links on the left side, adjusted the images to look right for higher resolutions, and updated a few of the player listings.
VardaValar1: ahh, thanks
VardaValar1: Isn't that a new background picture?
Eonwe Valar: Pretty sure it's the same one :}
VardaValar1: I still like it : )
Eonwe Valar: Last time I changed the background image was probably October or earlier.
VardaValar1: The middle one seemed different somehow
ArPharazonV: hmm... is the forum 'news' supposed to show those incredibly long links?
VardaValar1: No, Phar
ArPharazonV: one of them is even too big for the section...
VardaValar1: That is one of the things that weirded out on the upgrade
VardaValar1: We have to attack that problem. That is not even supposed to be visible
VardaValar1: Webwork:
Eonwe Valar: It's slightly larger to resolutions below 1150ish width I think.
VardaValar1: Perpetual updating on the Encyc navigation and author pages
Eonwe Valar: (Games page background, not forum stuff)
VardaValar1: Trying to change the index pic more often
VardaValar1: Using new quotes on the News now and then manually, since I still didn't get javascript to work.
VardaValar1: Maybe that's why it looks so good, Eonwe : )
VardaValar1: Any other web news?
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VardaValar1: Gaming News:
VardaValar1: WoW USA Friday night gaming in Stranglethorn
VardaValar1: Eonwe, did you want to tell about it?
Eonwe Valar: I could :}
VardaValar1: Nice to hear a voice besides mine, so to speak.
Eonwe Valar: We worked on the quests Troll Witchery, Skullsplitter Tusks, and Mai'Zoth.
VardaValar1: We got them too!
Eonwe Valar: We had a longer list to do, but Mai'Zoth proved to be a handful for the group.
Eonwe Valar: We managed to clear to him a few times, but something would go wrong, like the guys behind us would respawn or the boss would decide to join the party before we invited him.
VardaValar1: With a one-two punch of hot and cold.
Eonwe Valar: And so we ended up going on this adventure, at first with my brother, Arathorn, Varda, myself, and Merry, and after a few deaths with Larolan and then Kaikeil.
Eonwe Valar: *Keikeil
Eonwe Valar: Friends of Varda's who proved to be good people.
Eonwe Valar: Finally, we got the boss away from his cronies, and he went down easy.
Eonwe Valar: But by that time it was time to get some sleep, so that was the end of our questing :}
VardaValar1: Another group was operating at the same time, big help
VardaValar1: It was also the first time I've had a mount. Fun getting to ride that striped nightsabre, and not slow down the group for a change!
ArPharazonV: heh... always fun to go fast... I got travel-form today on my druid-main
VardaValar1: Did anything happen on guild Friday in WoW Europe, Phar?
ArPharazonV: no, not much... not many people were there...
ArPharazonV: in fact, the only guild-people I know on my server are Fladrif and Menel, and I don't think either of them were online, as you may recall me saying that day
VardaValar1: Memorial day weekend this week, may be more or less people around than usual due to vacations
ArPharazonV: other than that, I was away from home friday-evening as well, for some hours
VardaValar1: Thanks, Phar
ArPharazonV: so Friday, I think, isn't a busy day for the Europe-guildies :-)
ArPharazonV: a busy wow-day, that is
VardaValar1: Eonwe, any more planning on that Shrine event?
ArPharazonV: yes! can you tell us the location already? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, I figure a week is long enough if anyone was interested, so we can go for next Friday.
Eonwe Valar: The location is southeast of the crossroads, near the road :}
VardaValar1: You wanted 5 or more. That may be tough. Can we invite friends and others interested?
ArPharazonV: souteast of the crossroads, you say? I thought it was on a mountain?
ArPharazonV: *southeast even
Eonwe Valar: It is
ArPharazonV: http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/map.html?wmob=7168&zoneid=1017 check the map... is it the mountain between the two lakes?
Eonwe Valar: one sec
Eonwe Valar: On Lothar, seems we have 4 total interested.
Eonwe Valar: If you know others who might be interested Varda, feel free to invite them.
Eonwe Valar: Make sure they know to bring flowers :}
VardaValar1: I'm thinking about bringing extra
VardaValar1: We could make it a "raid" : )
Eonwe Valar: hehe
ArPharazonV: heh... an alliance raid-group in the barrens.. no, not suspicious at all!
VardaValar1: All bearing flowers. Strange looking
VardaValar1: Maybe we should have a few armed as escort
Eonwe Valar: I was considering the idea of brining some flowers to "destroy" there, as close to leaving flowers on the grave as we're going to get. I'd only be wasting my money :}
Eonwe Valar: Any thoughts on that?
VardaValar1: We don't have to destroy them.
Eonwe Valar: not required, especially since we'd never know if you did it, hehe :}
Eonwe Valar: As I said, I was just considering it :}
VardaValar1: If it's a form of showing peaceful intentions, we might want them to show on the way out
VardaValar1: I had first figured on destroying them also
VardaValar1: Carry one, destroy one?
VardaValar1: Sacrificial flowers
VardaValar1: We will know we did it : )
Eonwe Valar: That's what I was considering,aye. But as I said, not required of anyone.
VardaValar1: I think if room is available, I will try for that two flower approach
VardaValar1: What do you think of having an escort around flower-bearers?
VardaValar1: I'll try to get my priest up to the trip. Seems fitting : )
Eonwe Valar: Well, there's really nothing there we'd need protecting from. Everything except the guards are way under most of us.
ArPharazonV: indeed, and the guards are easy to avoid
VardaValar1: My 17 priest will try not to shiver in her cloth robes
VardaValar1: Aggro magnet
Eonwe Valar: The animals would be about your level :}
Eonwe Valar: Phar, a little north of the Wailing Caverns.
VardaValar1: We'll see how it goes. Flowers can be equipped on both characters : )
ArPharazonV: wailing caverns? I've been there... including on the mountain right above it... but haven't seen a shrine
ArPharazonV: oh well, must look again sometime...
Eonwe Valar: If you get close it'll tell you you're in the vicinity. then it's a matter of finding the right ramp up, which will be a northern slope.
ArPharazonV: okidoki
Eonwe Valar: That's about as descriptive as I can be without you actually looking for it right now and me not standing right there and neither of us being in the same world :}
VardaValar1: We could park one character at the mountain and walk another in. Then switch between them to bring both to the event
VardaValar1: If we see a Horde guy looking at our raid with wide eyes, we could all wave or bow or whatever you think is good
VardaValar1: Synchronized bowing, 1, 2, 3, bow? ;-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: Might need practice on that, this week. Could be fun!
VardaValar1: Imagine a level 5 guy seeing a whole raid bow. He might be quite reassured if it didn't scare him to death.
Eonwe Valar: And alert every Horde player to our presence :}
Eonwe Valar: then we'd have spectators, hehe.
VardaValar1: Let them join us : )
ArPharazonV: a lvl 5 guy in the barrens? he won't scare easily then... it's a 10+ zone ;-)
VardaValar1: okies, a level 10 guy : )
Eonwe Valar: Anything I may have missed?
VardaValar1: I wonder if there's an emote that could show, come with us?
Eonwe Valar: follow?
VardaValar1: Something a Horde guy could see
Eonwe Valar: he'd see the orange text at least I'm sure.
ArPharazonV: well, there's always the 'me' command, which gives the text in orange
Eonwe Valar: we see the wave, dance, and spit, so follow should work.
ArPharazonV: like 'me invites (insert orc-name here) to come along'
VardaValar1: I think they see emotes, but not most /me
VardaValar1: We can try to find out : )
ArPharazonV: :-)
Eonwe Valar: I don't think /me would work either. I think that gives the "(player) makes unrecognizeable gesture."
VardaValar1: Could be misinterpreted : )
ArPharazonV: like /me says to orc guy: if you can hear us, cluck like a chicken
VardaValar1: That might also be misinterpreted
ArPharazonV: but if he does so, chances are that he can understand you
VardaValar1: aye
Eonwe Valar: We shouldn't need anyone armed once we reach the Barrens, but I'll scope the area one last time before Friday, and if it comes t osomethign we can't avoid, we can just have one person desgianted to dispatch the violent creatures.
VardaValar1: Or be ready to equip quickly : )
ArPharazonV: can't you actually defeat the monsters with the flowers, if you're powerful enough?
VardaValar1: If we do all big guys, we can just ride through and ignore them.
VardaValar1: Flowers are not weapons, that I've seen
Eonwe Valar: I could probably dispatch them with my fist if need be.
VardaValar1: Or they would not be a peaceful sign
VardaValar1: Good idea! Unarmed combat needs some raising : )
Eonwe Valar: but would make my hands messy, and I'm going to a shrine :}
VardaValar1: *purifies Eonwe's hands*
Eonwe Valar: hehe yeah, it's only 115ish :}
ArPharazonV: or you could always dispatch them using spells...
VardaValar1: For those who are casters, aye
VardaValar1: Really hard to look peaceful
Eonwe Valar: Paladins don't do damage that way, not even against undead (not any major damage anyway :})
VardaValar1: O, so if we have any trustworthy friends, invite them along. Ones who won't go pvp for fun
VardaValar1: Otherwise we could invite the whole realm : )
Eonwe Valar: (well, maybe if they're 15 levels lower than me, Exorcism take a chunk off their health.. :})
VardaValar1: (Thundering outside, in case I disappear abruptly.)
ArPharazonV: I once went pvp on request... a guy had just died, and asked me to rez him... I thought 'if I don't rez him now, he'll be bugging me for the next half hour'
VardaValar1: That's when you can use /ignore if needed
ArPharazonV: and since the guy was pvp, so did I go pvp
ArPharazonV: heh
VardaValar1: But that is a judgement call
ArPharazonV: I'm neutral good ;-)
ArPharazonV: or chaotic good... or whatever
Orodreth V: just wondering..has there ever been an upsurge of intrest in good ole wc3 or sc again?
VardaValar1: Those are different. Neutral good is neutral swinging towards the good bias.
VardaValar1: Chaotic as in not Lawful
VardaValar1: But I digress... ;-)
Orodreth V: Robin Hood was chaotic good
Orodreth V: no?
ArPharazonV: wc3? did that a few days ago... when the servers were down ;-)
VardaValar1: Robin Hood kept order inside his group
Orodreth V: but it was utside the law
Orodreth V: outside*
VardaValar1: Some members don't play anything they have to pay a monthly fee for
VardaValar1: RH considered himself loyal to the rightful king
ArPharazonV: I've been recently trying to get into other games again besides WoW... starting with the Monkey Island series again
VardaValar1: but RH also made chaos, so he's debatable.
VardaValar1: We still play some D2X
Orodreth V: ...which I don't have.
Eonwe Valar: He made chaos amongst greedy evil men as I recall.
Orodreth V: Usless fools! ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Not amongst the "honest folk."
VardaValar1: Eowyn says hi from WoW : )
Eonwe Valar: Heya Eowyn.
ArPharazonV: ever played the Monkey Island series? it's pretty fun, still...
ArPharazonV: Heya
VardaValar1: No clue what it is
VardaValar1: WC3?
Eonwe Valar: Anything left of the meeting before we break dow nany further? :}
VardaValar1: That was Gaming : )
VardaValar1: Any further gaming news?
ArPharazonV: an adventure-series, by LucasArts, takes place in the Caribbean... all in the pirate-business, but pretty humorous
VardaValar1: Sounds fun
VardaValar1: Thanks for the review : )
VardaValar1: Should we post that to the Gaming page?
ArPharazonV: here's one of the biggest fan-sites, has loads of info on all the games
ArPharazonV: http://www.worldofmi.com/
VardaValar1: If there is no further Gaming news,
VardaValar1: ?
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VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Does anyone have a topic, or shall we consider Gimli's role in the story?
Orodreth V: I have a kind of meta-discussion.
VardaValar1: Is it Tolkien-related?
Orodreth V: but it's boring
Orodreth V: yes
VardaValar1: What is it?
Orodreth V: about fanfiction
VardaValar1: If it's Tolkien, we probably won't be bored
Orodreth V: what he thought of it
VardaValar1: We have a whole section for fanfic
VardaValar1: JRRT invited us to play in his backyard
Orodreth V: and what types are good
VardaValar1: He wanted to build a mythology that others could add to
Orodreth V: boring stuf
Orodreth V: :-P
Orodreth V: /me is falling asleep
VardaValar1: What type is good depends on your tastes
VardaValar1: What kind do you like, Oro? Adventure, particular characters, angst...?
VardaValar1: *pokes Orodreth*
Orodreth V: would he have approved someone making money off of a story set in his universe?
VardaValar1: Nope
VardaValar1: That violates copyright
VardaValar1: The Tolkien Estate would have to approve it, maybe get a cut.
Orodreth V: that's beside the point. would he have morally accepted it as part of hat he was doing?
VardaValar1: Not beside the point. Copyright was set up for a reason
Orodreth V: but it's not the legality I'm asking about
VardaValar1: He gave his approval to certain things, such as making movies, and sold that right
VardaValar1: I know
VardaValar1: It is very easy to abuse
VardaValar1: People already borrow a lot of his work now anyway
Orodreth V: it's tolkien's morals about people making money with their own stories set in hs universe
ArPharazonV: right... so the question is, first of all, did Tolkien initiate the copyright on his universe?
ArPharazonV: did he start the tolkien estate, so to speak
Orodreth V: yes
VardaValar1: Copyright can be abused too, but it is set up to protect the work, prevent its abuse and abuse of the writer
VardaValar1: Tolkien did copyright his work, yes.
ArPharazonV: that would be a sign that he did not accept it himself
Orodreth V: again, I understand the legality of it
VardaValar1: I know
Orodreth V: but copyright isn't jsut for derivitive works
ArPharazonV: therefore, that he was against it, and therefore he copyrighted his work
VardaValar1: I am not just talking about the legality, but why there is a copyright
Orodreth V: remember the fiasco in amaerica with the paperbacks?
VardaValar1: Copyright is automatic
VardaValar1: Yes
Orodreth V: ar, he could havecopyrighted it to prevent, you know, COPIES
ArPharazonV: ah, right...
VardaValar1: They stole the LotR by publishing it
Orodreth V: not nessicarily to prevent derivitive works
VardaValar1: We have works which look suspiciously derivative and make money and do ok
Orodreth V: D&D, anyone?
VardaValar1: But you mean something like Dragonlance and Star Wars, with other authors working in the series
ArPharazonV: hmm... my question is now... how does copyright work? if you copyright your work against copies, does it immediately include fan-work too? or is that a choice you as original author can make?
Orodreth V: But the point is, would he have liked this, accepted it, even if set wholy and explicitly within his universe? Leaving the estate out of it, would he have been okay with it?
VardaValar1: In those, the authors had some say
VardaValar1: When you invent a world and characters and do all that research,
VardaValar1: and fans come along and use it without having to do any of that work
VardaValar1: should they be allowed to take money that could have gone to his estate?
Orodreth V: he said he wanted peopel to build on his mythology
Orodreth V: that was your first responce above
VardaValar1: Now if they had their work approved by the author, or the estate, that is different
VardaValar1: Correct
Orodreth V: he didn't say anything at all about if they get to or do not get to make money off of it
VardaValar1: But should people be allowed money for their fanfic?
Orodreth V: I don't know
Orodreth V: I want to know what tolkien would have thought
VardaValar1: Have you seen how excitable fanfic people get when another fanfic writer borrows one of their characters?
VardaValar1: They go ballistic.
Orodreth V: is there anything in his letters about D&D? I believe that was popular in america before his death, no?
Orodreth V: some do
Orodreth V: others tell people to use their characters
Orodreth V: I think tolkien was the latter
VardaValar1: Aye, usually with permission and respectful use of their fanfic chars.
VardaValar1: If someone else writes in Tolkien's universe and makes money, he gets a copyright on his own work.
VardaValar1: Then we have more legal tangles.
MoriFinwe has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya, Caranthir : )
MoriFinwe: Aiya
Orodreth V: unless it violates another, preexisting copyright
Orodreth V: yes, I know.
VardaValar1: Orodreth brought up an interesting topic: Would Tolkien have minded other people writing stories for money within the mythology Tolkien set up?
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Orodreth V: I also know why copyright was made int he first place. I'm not asking about that, I'm asking about tolkien's views on others making money of his universe, not the government's views or hios estate's
VardaValar1: I understand that
VardaValar1: The minute money becomes involved in anything, laws become involved.
ArPharazonV: that's why I asked if he himself initiated that copyright... including about the fanfiction?
VardaValar1: Copyright is automatic once you finish writing a work
VardaValar1: He did want copyright, as you said, to prevent exact copies
VardaValar1: But yes he wanted people to add to the mythology
VardaValar1: The Iliad had many spin-offs
VardaValar1: It ended with the death of Hector.
MoriFinwe has left the room.
ArPharazonV: is there something like a Homer-estate? ;-)
VardaValar1: People wanted to know what happened next. Plenty of room to tell more mythology
Orodreth V: homer's works predate any known copyright laws..so no
VardaValar1: I don't think those old story-tellers could make money out of their myths the same way
Orodreth V: there are copyrights on translations through, correct varda?
VardaValar1: Kind of, aye
VardaValar1: There are
VardaValar1: It's a particular type, yes
Orodreth V: varda, how about this
VardaValar1: I believe it was Mercedes Lackey that had to drop a book she was writing because a fanfic came out with a similar plot and she did not want the person to say she copied it.
Orodreth V: if tolkien could make some sort of announcement with the force of law that any derivitive works that do not defame the characters and world would be legal, would he?
VardaValar1: We would have people screaming over what was defamation...
VardaValar1: He did ask for respect for living authors
VardaValar1: But after his death, I think it is somewhat likely, yes.
VardaValar1: If it happened, I would like to see it like they did with Star Wars and Dragonlance, so that all would agree with each other.
VardaValar1: Keep it consistent as possible.
VardaValar1: But he rigged it so multiple versions would be possible : )
VardaValar1: So, you want to write a book in his universe and be paid for it? : )
VardaValar1: I for one have been hoping the Tolkien estate will let the fanfic people write anything they please, as we will not have anything more from JRRT himself.
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
VardaValar1: If they can write something really good, I'd like to see it become a series of books
VardaValar1: I think Tolkien might have likes seeing his outlines fleshed out.
ArPharazonV: heh... someone to carry the torch... to continue working on the world he started...
VardaValar1: Aye
Orodreth V: No, I don;t
VardaValar1: Many someones
Orodreth V: it's jsut that I was wondering
Orodreth V: I coulnd't make money off m wiriting skills
Orodreth V: :0-\
Orodreth V: and I can't typew
VardaValar1: I don't think he wanted it left on the shelf ignored.
Orodreth V: cuz I hurt all over from firday night
Orodreth V: and want to go to sleep
VardaValar1: Feel free to sleep : )
VardaValar1: We have had business and a discussion
VardaValar1: Let's let everyone go sleep or play : )
VardaValar1: Thanks for an interesting topic.
ArPharazonV: :-)
Orodreth V: sure
VardaValar1: It was a tough one.
Orodreth V: I still wondering about what types of fanfic people consider good
Orodreth V: but that can wiat
Orodreth V: just for the record
VardaValar1: That depends on your point of view
Orodreth V: I like what-fis (mostly) hate any type of mary sue and love thigns that deal with time not covere dinthe book, or not covered in details
Orodreth V: magicaltypofix*
VardaValar1: *elixir of typing*
VardaValar1: You like what-ifs
VardaValar1: You and most of us hate Mary-Sue's : )
ArPharazonV: what's a Mary-Sue?
VardaValar1: Romance that was possible is good
Orodreth V: or any varation thereof
GilraenV: I like fanfiction that is well written (good spelling and grammar, correct word usage) and that have believable, or at least not terribly fake uber-powerful characters
ArPharazonV: like Eru? ;-)
VardaValar1: Mary Sue is when a writer inserts her or himself in the story to have a relationship, usually romantic, with the actual characters.
Orodreth V: Remember kids, writing a story about your friend who can slay the nazgul IS NOT BETTER then a mary sue
Orodreth V: it is, in fact, worse
VardaValar1: Most badly written.
Orodreth V: very
Orodreth V: badly writting
Druidfalconwolf has entered the room.
Orodreth V: /me goes to grab the brain acid
VardaValar1: Aye, Gilraen. I prefer them to be well-written, partly because it is in Tolkien's universe and he loved good writing. : )
VardaValar1: Aiya Haleth : )
Druidfalconwolf: aiyra
Orodreth V: time to etch out some memories that are popping up
Druidfalconwolf: aiya*
Orodreth V: /me shudders
VardaValar1: And here is another person who can weigh in well on fanfic : )
ArPharazonV: you mean like yourself going through a portal, finding yourself in Lebennin in the Third Age, and running away with Nimrodel?
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Orodreth V: Ar: Yes.
VardaValar1: Right, Phar. That is a Mary Sue
Orodreth V: But it's usualy a female with aragorn, or legolas
GilraenV: or 'you' fall through a portal and re-write the whole of LotR
Orodreth V: and joint he fellowship
Orodreth V: oh
Orodreth V: I also hate 99.99% of slash
ArPharazonV: I'm going to be the tenth Nazgul!
VardaValar1: The Mary Sue is usually incredibly powerful and has some very sappy name
Druidfalconwolf: lol
Orodreth V: if for no other reason then it is poorly written
VardaValar1: Aye, Phar. That sort of thing
Orodreth V: there are a VERY select few where it is well written and I just skip over certian scenes
ArPharazonV: hmm... how about I step through a portal, find myself in a dark barrow, kill a captured Frodo, just happen to look like him, and take his place..
ArPharazonV: I call out to Tom Bombadil, and nobody will know the difference...
Orodreth V: marty sam. there
ArPharazonV: of course, the Nazgul at Weathertop never stand a chance against the uber-me/Frodo, and I can just walk to Rivendell without a shard in my shoulder
VardaValar1: There is a name for guy Mary Sues which escapes me at the moment : )
Orodreth V: marty sam
GilraenV: Gary Stus
ArPharazonV: I save Gandalf by taking out the Balrog on my own
GilraenV: and you can't forget the 'Elrond's Daughter' Sues
Orodreth V: oh
Orodreth V: /me shudders
Orodreth V: mention not that unholy name!
GilraenV: The youngerm, more beautiful, far more fabulous sister of Arwen, taken away from Middle Earth (usually to the US) when just a babe to protect her from Sauron, who wants her life/soul/hand in marriage/firstborn child
VardaValar1: Haleth's birthday was the day before Fangorn's. Congrats!
ArPharazonV: I save Boromir's life at Amon Hen, he apologizes to me for his past behaviour, and the 9 of us go on to save Edoras and Helm's Deep
ArPharazonV: Congrats!
Druidfalconwolf: hehe thanks
ArPharazonV: we overthrow Saruman's tower and make him rethink his ways...
GilraenV: So many May birthdays
Druidfalconwolf: I'm now officially 15... one more year until it's the "danger" stage =P
VardaValar1: For a what-if, suppose Boromir and Aragorn had gone to Minas Tirith. Where would the rest go?
VardaValar1: Danger is the day of birth. ;-)
ArPharazonV: we go to save Minas Tirith, overthrow Minas Morgul, and march to Mount Doom...
ArPharazonV: take out a few million Orcs with the 9 of us, and throw in the Ring
Druidfalconwolf: Yes, sounds wonderful :D
ArPharazonV: and then we just walk back out to Ithilien... no Eagles needed, and the lava neatly stays away from us...
Orodreth V: I read one (it was like watching a train wreck, I couldn't stop) and every 3rd of 4th sentance I wanted
Orodreth V: arwen, sauron, morgoth, eru, aragorn, elrond, celeborn, galadriel, wormtounge, ANYONE to come in a beat the main "character" to death
VardaValar1: hehe - well described!
Druidfalconwolf: ouch
Druidfalconwolf: lol
ArPharazonV: hmm... there's a good story in that summary I just gave.. perhaps I'll write it some day, just for fun...
Orodreth V: Ar, you have just described half of the fanfics on ff.net
ArPharazonV: heh
VardaValar1: That is the mary sue type
Orodreth V: if you ever write that, I am going to come to your house and strangle you if I have to swim across the ocean
VardaValar1: If they concentrate on actual characters, then I usually like it much better.
VardaValar1: Oro, you might have help.
ArPharazonV: hmm... still thinking... how am I going to include Gollum?
Orodreth V: Heheh.
VardaValar1: No problem. He's always hanging around.
Orodreth V: Your slashy love interest.
Orodreth V: /me shudders
VardaValar1: *gags*
Orodreth V: I've seen it done
Orodreth V: ..unfortunatly
Druidfalconwolf: NO, NO, and NOOO
Druidfalconwolf: lol
VardaValar1: Now we have to wash our eyes. : )
ArPharazonV: perhaps he just follows us all the way to Mordor, plays 'by accident' a key-role in saving most battles by a ridiculous coincidence...
ArPharazonV: and in the end he picks my pocket for the Ring, and I just smack him in the face and push him in the lava...
ArPharazonV: and gone are both Gollum and the Ring
ArPharazonV: oh, of course we get to hijack a Mumakil in the process...
Orodreth V: Varda, is it just me or does Ar seem to have..experience with this?
ArPharazonV: just letting my imagination go wild :-)
VardaValar1: Scary huh, Oro?
Druidfalconwolf: I refuse to ask anything more =P
Orodreth V: Yea.
VardaValar1: I am now curious about the what-if earlier:
Orodreth V: Smart move.
VardaValar1: For a what-if, suppose Boromir and Aragorn had gone to Minas Tirith. Where would the rest go?
ArPharazonV: and, of course, there's this little book called 'Bored of the Rings', in which Frodo and Sam (or whatever their names are in that book) tie Gollum up to the Ring and throw him in a tar-pit...
Orodreth V: Legolas./Gimli would have gone to Fangorn.
VardaValar1: You think they would not have gone with Frodo or Aragorn?
Orodreth V: hmm
Orodreth V: how does Aragorn get Bormir to go with him to Minas Tirth?
Orodreth V: Are Merry and Pippin not stolen?
FladrifV has entered the room.
VardaValar1: If Boromir behaves in the first place, hmm, have to replace him with Faramir?
ArPharazonV: it depends on whatever they decide at Amon Hen... I guess if Frodo made the same choice, he would've gone off to Mordor anyway
VardaValar1: Aiya Fladrif : )
FladrifV: aiya
ArPharazonV: with or without Sam, or the other Hobbits
FladrifV: sorry for being late
FladrifV: little wow adicted...
VardaValar1: Frodo would have tried to leave on his own, aye
VardaValar1: We are too, Fladrif
FladrifV: /me feels les ashamed now
ArPharazonV: but, here's the thing... are we assuming that in the what-if, the Orcs did not attack?
Orodreth V: If Boromir hadn't attacked Frodo..
VardaValar1: You can put AIM in the background, but it sure slows the game! : )
Orodreth V: Not on mah supa computa!
ArPharazonV: in that case, Aragorn and the others may still have been waiting at the camp-site
VardaValar1: Frodo was already deciding to go on his own, just hesitating.
Druidfalconwolf: Aiya Fladrif, sorry for not saying hi earlier
VardaValar1: Maybe Boromir could remember his shield? : )
ArPharazonV: if Aragorn and the others were still waiting at the camp-site, how would Frodo have taken off by himself? how could he have taken a boat'
FladrifV: np druid :-)
ArPharazonV: ?
FladrifV: he was clever enough
VardaValar1: He could also have stated his decision
VardaValar1: Aragorn would have helped him make it stick
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: But all the hobbits would probably follow him at a distance : )
ArPharazonV: but would the other Hobbits have allowed it? wouldn't they have gone with him whatever the cost?
ArPharazonV: right
ArPharazonV: in that case, they would have taken a second boat, and gone after him...
VardaValar1: If they were all at the alert as they should have been, if Aragorn listened to his sensor-packages warning (Legolas)
ArPharazonV: leaving Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas and Boromir to go on to Minas Tirith
VardaValar1: they could have avoided the Orcs with no battle, maybe
VardaValar1: Gimli is a very stubborn type
VardaValar1: I wonder if he would have tried to follow Frodo?
ArPharazonV: but if Aragorn and the others went to Minas Tirith... what would have happened to Rohan, I wonder?
ArPharazonV: no Hobbits to wake up the Ent-revolution...
ArPharazonV: perhaps Gandalf would have had a much harder task than he already had
aranfinwe: deus ex machina :-)
aranfinwe: sorry, couldn't resist :-)
VardaValar1: Worse, we have to come up with a good plot, Finwe. ;-)
ArPharazonV: Gandalf would have faced the hard task of 'waking up' the Ents, 'freeing' Theoden, and saving Helm's Deep...
VardaValar1: Our guys trying to follow Frodo on the sly, still manage to get in trouble
ArPharazonV: of course, no Palantir for our good friend Aragorn... no rushing ahead of Mordor's forces...
ArPharazonV: unless Gandalf brought the Palantir to Minas Tirith, to Aragorn, from Isengard... but would he?
VardaValar1: You just don't want to make it work. Give it a shot. : )
ArPharazonV: right...
ArPharazonV: so Gandalf brings the Palantir to Minas Tirith, to Aragorn who's waiting there already
ArPharazonV: Theoden may still come with the Rohirrim, but I doubt Aragorn would have gone back to fetch the Army of the Dead...
ArPharazonV: which means that not only Lebennin isn't freed, but the Corsair-fleet is still a threat
VardaValar1: Corsairs and army of the dead. Tricky
ArPharazonV: and, in the meanwhile, we have Frodo going on through the Emyn Muil
ArPharazonV: the other Hobbits are trying to catch up with him
ArPharazonV: and Gollum's being a sneaky spy
Orodreth V: say
Orodreth V: has anyone here gotten xfire?
VardaValar1: You sent Legolas and Gimli to Fangorn earlier. Maybe they can cause some excitement.
ArPharazonV: Gollum gets his hands on Frodo, tries to take the Ring... but just in time the Hobbits catch up, and defeat Gollum, tie him up with the rope..
ArPharazonV: no, Legolas and Gimli went to Minas Tirith with Aragorn and Boromir
aranfinwe: well, time for me to leave
aranfinwe: Namarie all
VardaValar1: That was the later earlier
ArPharazonV: Namarie
ArPharazonV: right...
VardaValar1: Enjoy your trip home!
VardaValar1: Namarie, Finwe
aranfinwe: heh, thx :-)
aranfinwe has left the room.
ArPharazonV: why would Legolas and Gimli go to Fangorn in the first place?
VardaValar1: That was your idea. You tell us : )
ArPharazonV: no, not mine..
ArPharazonV: that was Orodreth's idea
ArPharazonV: I had them go to Minas Tirith immediately from Amon Hen
VardaValar1: Ok, Oro, the question goes to you. : )
VardaValar1: But what about Gimli's talk about how it would be faithless to leave Frodo?
ArPharazonV: don't you think he would have understood the need for Frodo to go alone? if Aragorn, and even Boromir, understood?
VardaValar1: Boromir just wanted to go to Minas Tirith
VardaValar1: Aragorn already planned to go with Boromir
ArPharazonV: indeed...
ArathornValar has left the room.
VardaValar1: But Gimli wanted to go all the way to Mordor
ArPharazonV: and his little encounter with Frodo would have convinced Boromir that the Ring would indeed be best off without him...
ArPharazonV: but Gimli, aye...
ArPharazonV: you think he would have accompanied the Hobbits?
ArPharazonV: in that case, how about Legolas?
VardaValar1: Maybe the ones sneaking behind Frodo? : )
ArPharazonV: aye
Druidfalconwolf has left the room.
ArPharazonV: and would Legolas have gone with them?
VardaValar1: Legolas would have been torn, but probably gone with Gimli and Frodo
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: That would be three parties, not counting Gollum
ArPharazonV: you mean Gimli, Sam, Merry, and Pippin :-)
ArPharazonV: so we have Frodo going on alone
VardaValar1: Sam would have been right out there with Frodo. No holding him back
VardaValar1: Merry and Pippin would be sneaking along behind
ArPharazonV: the Hobbits, Gimli, and Legolas, going after Frodo, perhaps trying to catch him after all
VardaValar1: Gimli and Legolas would protect Merry and Pippin
ArPharazonV: I don't think they would be sneaking...
ArPharazonV: after a while they'd try to catch up with him, wouldn't they?
ArPharazonV: and seeing as Sam and Frodo are going in circles in the Emyn Muil, they would have a good chance
VardaValar1: They would probably light a campfire on a hill, use pipeweed, and be spotted by Frodo : )
ArPharazonV: heheh
ArPharazonV: so, the entire gang comes together again
VardaValar1: Legolas and Gimli might have helped them straighten their course
VardaValar1: Aragorn and Boromir went to Minas Tirith
ArPharazonV: we have Boromir, Aragorn and Gandalf in Minas Tirith, and Rohan saved
ArPharazonV: we also have the Hobbits, Gimli, and Legolas, in the Emyn Muil
ArPharazonV: we have Gollum tracking them
VardaValar1: Gimli and Legolas would grab Gollum, but they might see Frodo's point in needing a guide
ArPharazonV: no doubt, Legolas' keen eye-sight would spot Gollum in no time
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: No one but Gollum knows the way in
ArPharazonV: so they have Gollum lead them to the Black Gate
ArPharazonV: once there, they make their way through Ithilien
ArPharazonV: and there, they are quickly spotted by Faramir
VardaValar1: Not a human in the lot
VardaValar1: But they could give him news of Boromir's return to Minas Tirith
ArPharazonV: aye, but an Elf and a Dwarf... that should raise some thoughts about the importance of the matter
ArPharazonV: if Boromir was already in Minas Tirith, would Faramir not know this?
VardaValar1: Such a mixed group would say that something was going on
VardaValar1: No other word would be needed to see that
ArPharazonV: and, as such, already know about the Ringbearer's mission, perhaps?
VardaValar1: Now that, no
ArPharazonV: of course not, Aragorn and Boromir would not spread the news about this
VardaValar1: Since Faramir was supposed to have gone and not Boromir, maybe he would get another vision?
ArPharazonV: here's the question: Boromir and Aragorn went straight to Minas Tirith, right?
VardaValar1: Probably not, knowing them ;-)
VardaValar1: Maybe some rangers caught up to them
ArPharazonV: well, considering Gandalf's already in the process of saving Rohan...
ArPharazonV: why would Boro and Ara not go directly to Minas Tirith?
VardaValar1: Gandalf could have help from the rangers and sons of Elrond
VardaValar1: Trouble magnets?
VardaValar1: Sure, they would intend to go to Minas Tirith
ArPharazonV: trouble? why? they don't have the Ringbearer with them...
ArPharazonV: two lone men who can fend for themselves, and heading straight for the city in all secret...
ArPharazonV: both Isengard and Mordor occupied elsewhere...
VardaValar1: But they were not in a hurry and stopped by Rohan
ArPharazonV: why would they do that, I may ask?
VardaValar1: Why not?
ArPharazonV: because they were planning on going to Minas Tirith?
ArPharazonV: and they know not that Saruman is about to trash Rohan?
VardaValar1: I need to go dig out a map, one sec
ArPharazonV: and they know not that Gandalf is busy in Fangorn Forest?
ArPharazonV: the reason they went to Rohan in the first place, was to free Merry and Pippin, and after that, they helped Gandalf free Theoden, and after that, they went to save Helm's Deep
ArPharazonV: but since M and P aren't captured, why would they go to Rohan in the first place?
VardaValar1: ok, going downriver towards Gondor runs them by Rohan
VardaValar1: There they would hear of the troubles
VardaValar1: Rohan is an ally of Gondor
ArPharazonV: ok, they would hear of the troubles
VardaValar1: Boromir and Aragorn might stop to aid their allies, and be glad to meet up with Gandalf again
ArPharazonV: go to Edoras
ArPharazonV: meet up with Gandalf
ArPharazonV: save Helm's Deep
VardaValar1: We still need Huorns
ArPharazonV: right, but since there were no Hobbits, we must assume Gandalf would have been wise enough to arise the Ents, right?
ArPharazonV: set the Entmoot in motion, etc etc
ArPharazonV: which leads once again to the flooding of Isengard, and the Huorns at Helm's Deep
VardaValar1: Gandalf is not supposed to do it himself
ArPharazonV: right, but he's the only one who can at this moment
VardaValar1: He has to put someone else in that position
ArPharazonV: ah, yes... but who?
ArPharazonV: would he send Aragorn and Boromir to Fangorn to do it for him?
VardaValar1: He has rangers, 2 elves, Aragorn, and Boromir, and Eomer and Eowyn
VardaValar1: Send Aragorn, Boromir, Elladan, and Elrohir
VardaValar1: That could stir up plenty : )
ArPharazonV: but Elladan and Elrohir aren't there yet...
ArPharazonV: they only arrive in Rohan one or two days after the battle of Helm's Deep..
VardaValar1: We need to speed them up : )
ArPharazonV: riiight...
ArPharazonV: and how do you propose we do that?
VardaValar1: Those two elves wanted a side trip to see Fangorn Forest, that's it
VardaValar1: So they had to start early to do that
VardaValar1: Gandalf intercepts them
ArPharazonV: ah, that's right...
VardaValar1: Aren't you glad Tolkien wrote it his way!
ArPharazonV: Gandalf doesn't head to Edoras, but gets his Eagle to fly him to the Elven brothers
VardaValar1: Stop by both if he likes
ArPharazonV: gets them to hurry, ride through the Gap of Rohan, and stir up the Ents
ArPharazonV: in the meanwhile, he goes back to Edoras
ArPharazonV: frees Theoden, meets Aragorn and Boromir
ArPharazonV: and sends them back to Fangorn as well
VardaValar1: um. Why?
ArPharazonV: why? to help Elrohir and Elladan to stir up the Ents...
ArPharazonV: but if you don't think that's necessary
ArPharazonV: we can just move right on to Helm's Deep!
VardaValar1: So the twins can't do it themselves?
ArPharazonV: they might, aye
VardaValar1: Sounds good, moving along.
ArPharazonV: ok, so they stir up the Ents
ArPharazonV: the Entmoot begins
ArPharazonV: in the meanwhile, Aragorn and Boromir and Theoden and Eomer move to Helm's Deep
ArPharazonV: Gandalf goes to Isengard, to call on the aid of the Ents, who have flooded the place by now
VardaValar1: Eowyn leads the people elsewhere, like in the books
ArPharazonV: Helm's Deep goes 'as normal', but with Boromir instead of Lego and Gimli
ArPharazonV: indeed, Eowyn goes to Dunharrow
VardaValar1: The Huorns would already be heading to Helm's Deep, as per books
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
VardaValar1: (The rest of you can help with this fanfic if you like!)
ArPharazonV: anyway, we have Gandalf and Erkenbrand etc, and they win Helm's Deep, as per books
VardaValar1: okies
ArPharazonV: they go to Isengard, apb, get the Palantir
ArPharazonV: Aragorn challenges Sauron, to make him hurry, and draw attention away from the Hobbits etc
ArPharazonV: apb, Aragorn and the Rangers go get the Army of the Dead, while Gandalf rides to Minas Tirith to prepare for battle... no Hobbit with him...
ArPharazonV: but Boromir would probably go with him anyway
VardaValar1: What is this apb?
ArPharazonV: as per books
VardaValar1: tanks
ArPharazonV: I'd expect Boromir to head straight for Minas Tirith now, with Gandalf (though not on same horse), instead of going through the Paths of the Dead with Aragorn and the Rangers
VardaValar1: He could not keep up with Shadowfax
ArPharazonV: so, that leaves all normal until the Battle of the Pelennor Fields
ArPharazonV: aye, that's true..
VardaValar1: So you would have Boromir separated
ArPharazonV: not sure...
VardaValar1: Gets sticky right there
ArPharazonV: either he goes alone, Gandalf slows down to let him keep up, he goes with Aragorn, or he waits with Theoden
VardaValar1: I don't think he'd wait. Too impatient
ArPharazonV: aye
ArPharazonV: but why would Gandalf not slow down to have Boromir keep up? he doesn't have a hobbit with him who keeps attracting trouble...
VardaValar1: Gandalf is not trying to drag a hobbit to Gondor in a hurry though
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: so Boromir and Gandalf go to Minas Tirith, at Boro-speed
ArPharazonV: while Aragorn, the Elves, and the Rangers use the Army of the Dead to cleanse Lebennin and take the Corsair-fleet
VardaValar1: Why not have Gandalf go with Aragorn?
ArPharazonV: which ties it all up neatly at Minas Tirith
ArPharazonV: hmm... there's a thought
VardaValar1: Guess we need someone to go see Denethor and set him up
ArPharazonV: so you would have Boromir go on seperately?
ArPharazonV: to, indeed, see Denethor and set him up?
VardaValar1: Boromir goes with Gandalf, probably
VardaValar1: Boromir has gone much farther alone though
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: I don't think Boromir would go with Gandalf and Aragorn then
ArPharazonV: he would probably go ahead to warn Minas Tirith
VardaValar1: If Gandalf and Boromir went together, Gandalf would have less trouble with Denethor
ArPharazonV: indeed, that's ture...
ArPharazonV: *true...
ArPharazonV: so do we have Gandalf going with Aragorn or not?
VardaValar1: Ok so Gandalf and Boromir go together
VardaValar1: to Minas Tirith
ArPharazonV: ok
VardaValar1: We do break up the Fellowship : )
ArPharazonV: and, again, Aragorn, the Elves, and the Rangers use the Army of the Dead to cleanse Lebennin and take the Corsair-fleet...
ArPharazonV: which, again, ties it all up neatly at Minas Tirith
VardaValar1: Oh, Legolas is not going to the Sea and does not get the Sea-longing
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: doesn't matter
ArPharazonV: he doesn't get Galadriel's message anyway ;-)
VardaValar1: Tell that to him and Thranduil
VardaValar1: He thought it meant he would die, so it was not much help. He went anyway
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: meh, we'll work out getting him to the Sea later...
ArPharazonV: for now, he's in Ithilien with Gimli and the Hobbits
VardaValar1: He does not have to go
ArPharazonV: and Gollum
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: it's just a what-if
VardaValar1: He could stay and be Thranduil's heir
VardaValar1: Aye : )
ArPharazonV: so, for now, the gang's in Ithilien, and Faramir spots them
ArPharazonV: they're probably capable of convincing Faramir a lot earlier
VardaValar1: Gimli might be as crusty as Sam.
VardaValar1: They need Frodo and Legolas to keep a lid on things
ArPharazonV: heh
VardaValar1: Faramir would listen to an elf
ArPharazonV: be that as it may, I don't think Faramir would take the party away to Osgiliath
VardaValar1: That's silly, aye : )
ArPharazonV: and with such a strong Dwarf and Elf, wouldn't even mind them going to Cirith Ungol
ArPharazonV: convinced that they can handle whatever terror is in there
VardaValar1: He would warn them about the spider, if they did not know
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: but they would know it's the only way, and they could of course handle the spider...
VardaValar1: With help from the light, aye : )
ArPharazonV: this time, we do have a big strong Elf warrior... and a Dwarf warrior as well :-)
VardaValar1: Profile is not as low this go-around
ArPharazonV: indeed... but they'll be able to stay stealthed, as long as they can climb the stairs unnoticed
ArPharazonV: just staying out of sight of Minas Morgul
VardaValar1: I think they could do that
ArPharazonV: so, again, they get to Cirith Ungol
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: defeat Shelob, no problem
VardaValar1: Orc patrol
ArPharazonV: what happens to Gollum here?
VardaValar1: They know it is coming though
VardaValar1: Gollum was guiding, right?
ArPharazonV: aye
VardaValar1: He just says they knew about the spider
ArPharazonV: heh
VardaValar1: Stays with them if they aren't properly killed
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: so now we have the Orc patrol
ArPharazonV: about 40 Orcs
VardaValar1: He probably hoped they would die, might try to separate them
ArPharazonV: indeed...
VardaValar1: Legolas knows the Orcs are there, maybe Frodo with Sting
ArPharazonV: but the party's so big and strong, and loyal, it won't happen that easily
ArPharazonV: the seperation, that is
VardaValar1: Right, they won't be separated. Nice to have a Fellowship still : )
ArPharazonV: so now we have a defeated Shelob
VardaValar1: I missed that in the books
ArPharazonV: a Gollum whose plan has fallen apart, but his cover not blown
GilraenV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Would Shelob attack?
ArPharazonV: good question...
VardaValar1: She is very sure of herself
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: I'll go with she attacks
ArPharazonV: and even the orc patrol of 40 orcs were initially afraid of her
VardaValar1: Good point
ArPharazonV: so I think she thinks she can handle the party
ArPharazonV: but, of course, she can't
VardaValar1: Surprise : )
ArPharazonV: so, either she dies, or she manages to flee
VardaValar1: Ok, so Frodo does not race madly out the other side
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: His friends are with him
ArPharazonV: and he does not get captured
VardaValar1: They know about the patrol
ArPharazonV: yup
VardaValar1: They let it pass them
ArPharazonV: aye
VardaValar1: Tolkien's was more exciting
ArPharazonV: and they go along their merry way
VardaValar1: With Merry, aye ;-)
VardaValar1: But now they have zillions of orcs
ArPharazonV: sneak by Cirith Ungol, which probably still has a small garrison...
ArPharazonV: since not every Orc would have gone on patrol
VardaValar1: So do they try grabbing Orc outfits?
VardaValar1: They could if they wanted to
ArPharazonV: they might...
ArPharazonV: they could enter the tower, beat up 6 Orcs, take their outfits, and continue to Mount Doom
ArPharazonV: of course, this is a lot earlier than in the books
VardaValar1: I had in mind picking off sentries or patrol stragglers, but that works too
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: so, the army of Mordor has not yet left the plains of Gorgoroth
VardaValar1: If this goes really fast in Mordor, Aragorn might not be pulling orc armies away from them
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: We agree : )
ArPharazonV: this is at least a day earlier
VardaValar1: They might have to skulk around a bit
VardaValar1: They would be much better provisioned
ArPharazonV: as I recall, Fro and Sam were walking along the Western mountains when the Pelennor Fields took place
ArPharazonV: so, in this case, the battle has not yet been fought
ArPharazonV: and Mordor still has plenty of Orcs
VardaValar1: They might spend some time collecting more provisions from Orcs, along with outfits
ArPharazonV: heh, indeed
ArPharazonV: while slowly making their way across the Western Mountains... sorry, can't recall their name
VardaValar1: They would not be caught on the plains of Gorgoroth without enough water
ArPharazonV: yup, they would find the spring Fro and Sam found
ArPharazonV: but can stay a lot longer
ArPharazonV: so, as it turns out...
ArPharazonV: they reach the area around the Black Gate at the apb time
VardaValar1: Ephel Duath, Mts of Shadow
ArPharazonV: thanks
VardaValar1: Handy map in the Sil here
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: the Sil?
VardaValar1: RotK
ArPharazonV: since when is there a map of Mordor in the Sil?
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
VardaValar1: Pardon
ArPharazonV: anyway
ArPharazonV: Aragorn, Gandalf, Boromir, Rangers, Eomer, etc... they move towards the Black Gate
VardaValar1: You know we are the only two talking?
ArPharazonV: yup
ArPharazonV: so, Pelennor fields has gone apb
ArPharazonV: but this time we have Boromir defending it as well
VardaValar1: Denethor does not die
ArPharazonV: nope
VardaValar1: So Aragorn has a big problem
ArPharazonV: although Theoden might
VardaValar1: Denethor will not want to turn over the kingship later
ArPharazonV: ah, here's a problem
ArPharazonV: can Eowyn still handle the Witch-King without Merry?
VardaValar1: Maybe Boromir will sit on him : )
VardaValar1: umm
VardaValar1: Let's get those twins back to work, helping Eowyn
ArPharazonV: those twins are still on the Corsair-fleet... although they may indeed have come a little sooner than in the books
VardaValar1: Hard to hide that she's Eowyn from them, so they help her
VardaValar1: Or we can have
VardaValar1: Eomer do it
VardaValar1: He's present
ArPharazonV: hahah
ArPharazonV: sounds good
VardaValar1: He would want to defend Dad too!
ArPharazonV: so Eomer and Eowyn take out the Witch-KIng
ArPharazonV: *-King, even
VardaValar1: Eomer can't kill him, but Eowyn can
ArPharazonV: yup
ArPharazonV: but Eomer can distract him...
VardaValar1: Sibling team : )
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: so, they kill the Witch-King
ArPharazonV: Eowyn still injured
ArPharazonV: is Eomer injured too?
VardaValar1: Maybe not as bad with Eomer helping
VardaValar1: Hey, being a distraction is tough work. Could be a little
ArPharazonV: no, perhaps not her shield-arm... but she does still get the shadow over her from killing him
VardaValar1: He needs to lead the Rohirrim, so not too bad
ArPharazonV: but Eomer is lightly wounded
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: healed by Aragorn, and ready to march on the Black Gate
VardaValar1: Maybe Eomer distracts without being close enough to get the Black Breath
VardaValar1: Running a mumakil at the Witch-king ; )
ArPharazonV: perhaps
ArPharazonV: lol
ArPharazonV: ok, but he still gets wounded
ArPharazonV: and healed
ArPharazonV: so, anyway... the Battle's over
VardaValar1: He can still ride and lead the Rohirrim as per book
ArPharazonV: Theoden dead, Faramir wounded, but Denethor and Boromir alive
VardaValar1: That was when he took over as king
ArPharazonV: yup
ArPharazonV: but Theoden still dies
ArPharazonV: so he does become king
ArPharazonV: anyway
ArPharazonV: Denethor and Boromir alive
ArPharazonV: Aragorn enters the city
VardaValar1: Faramir tells Gandalf about seeing the whole crew in Ithilien : )
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: Because he and Gandalf are friends
ArPharazonV: Gandalf urges them to go the Black Gate, to create a distraction...
VardaValar1: He trusts Gandalf more than Denethor or probably Boromir
ArPharazonV: apb
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: so, who go the Black Gate?
VardaValar1: apb
VardaValar1: plus Boromir
ArPharazonV: would Denethor allow the Gondorian troops to go?
VardaValar1: Denethor would stay in the city and plot against Aragorn
ArPharazonV: heheh
VardaValar1: Boromir would take the troops
VardaValar1: at least part
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
ArPharazonV: so that's all apb
VardaValar1: Denethor would not let Boromir go without protection of any sort
ArPharazonV: meanwhile, the Hobbits, Gimli and Legolas are caught in their fancy Orc-outfits
VardaValar1: He could not keep Boromir from going
VardaValar1: um
VardaValar1: Caught?
ArPharazonV: well, spotted and 'drafted' as Orcs
ArPharazonV: like Fro and Sam were
VardaValar1: Drafted, and maybe on purpose this time
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: cause some dissension between the troops... get out at the first opportunity... and head for Mount Doom
ArPharazonV: still with a Gollum-guide
VardaValar1: Taking turns carrying Frodo to help his speed
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: Although not suffering as much from thirst, he's hauling the weight of the world
ArPharazonV: they might even get there before the battle at the Black Gate... now that would be something
ArPharazonV: "Hey, Gandalf, I think we're too late... Mordor's already falling apart..."
VardaValar1: lol
FladrifV: namarie to all
ArPharazonV: namarie
VardaValar1: Namarie Fladrif
FladrifV: even trees need sleep :-)
VardaValar1: WoWing?
VardaValar1: Good plan : )
VardaValar1: only 7pm here
ArPharazonV: heh.. 2 am here
FladrifV: hehe thats the time I need to get up
ArPharazonV: 7pm?
FladrifV: so only 4.39 hours sleep :-)
VardaValar1: only am I think : )
FladrifV: indeed am
VardaValar1: We blew up Mordor. Sleep well : )
FladrifV: pm wasnt a big problem :P
ArPharazonV: :-)
FladrifV: oh kewl
VardaValar1: hehe
ArPharazonV: but Mordor isn't blown up yet...
FladrifV: now I can sleep again on the hills of isengarth
VardaValar1: Dig deep : )
ArPharazonV: first, they get to Mount Doom
FladrifV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: there, we have the Gollum-problem....
VardaValar1: ArPharazonV: "Hey, Gandalf, I think we're too late... Mordor's already falling apart..."
ArPharazonV: right, that would be after the blowing up
ArPharazonV: but we haven't handled the actual blowing up yet
VardaValar1: Give Fladrif a little closure anyway : )
ArPharazonV: heheh
ArPharazonV: he'll read the transcript, if he's interested
ArPharazonV: so, anyway
ArPharazonV: Gollum sees all his hopes falling apart
VardaValar1: Nice thought. Maybe someone reads these. : )
ArPharazonV: the Shelob-plan failed
VardaValar1: Our guys know he must be getting upset
ArPharazonV: hey, I right the transcript... well, at least the parts when I'm not actually participating...
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: the mistrust rises
VardaValar1: So, about two lines
VardaValar1: Guess they all had only elven rope
VardaValar1: Maybe they could pick up some Orc rope!
ArPharazonV: nassty Orc ropess...
ArPharazonV: it burnsss usss
VardaValar1: aye, those : )
VardaValar1: hmm
ArPharazonV: ok, so much for my Gollum-impression
VardaValar1: nice flavor
ArPharazonV: let's continue this fascinating tale
VardaValar1: They would not let him out of sight if possible
ArPharazonV: they tie Gollum on a rope again, won't let him out of sight
VardaValar1: Might leash him up for the last part of the trip
VardaValar1: If we need it for the plot, he pulls loose
ArPharazonV: at night, Gollum secretly tries to gnaw the ropes... at the last night of the trip, that is
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: he pulls loose...
VardaValar1: Pulls it out of someone's hands
VardaValar1: who will be yelled at by the others, of course
ArPharazonV: after gnawing at it at night, the rope is almost chewed through... but nobody notices, of course
VardaValar1: Why not?
ArPharazonV: and, since it's only Orcish rope, and not the Elvish thing
VardaValar1: I doubt Legolas will slepp
VardaValar1: He only seems to when Gandalf is near
ArPharazonV: Gollum gnaws quietly
VardaValar1: heh
ArPharazonV: so, anyway, we reach the sammath naur
ArPharazonV: the gang enters the mountain, and Gollum gets anxious
VardaValar1: They are all around Frodo, guarding him
ArPharazonV: he snaps the rope, leaving Sam with a broken orc-rope in his hands
VardaValar1: Might have to bowl Pippin over
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: oh, he is still with them
ArPharazonV: he overwhelms Pippin, attacks Frodo, just in front of the entrance of Mount Doom
VardaValar1: Everyone jumps on them
ArPharazonV: tries to take the Ring, but indeed, they all jump on him
ArPharazonV: and while they tie him up real good this time, with another piece of Orc-rope, Frodo runs, fully awakened once again by the attack
ArPharazonV: into Mount Doom
VardaValar1: But we have a bunch of guys this time
ArPharazonV: aye
ArPharazonV: but Frodo refuses to give up the Ring
VardaValar1: Sam or more will run after him if they don't tackle him
VardaValar1: Aye, Frodo must possess the Ring
VardaValar1: He goes invisible therefore
ArPharazonV: but the Elf is so quick, he manages to overtake Frodo before he puts the Ring on
VardaValar1: ahh
VardaValar1: a change
ArPharazonV: so Sauron's eye is not yet drawn upon them
VardaValar1: *whew*
ArPharazonV: after all, the battle at the Black Gate is not taking place yet
ArPharazonV: so if Sauron was to notice them now
VardaValar1: Slow humans
ArPharazonV: they'd have a bunch of Nazgul and Orcs after them real quickly now
ArPharazonV: anyway, Legolas overtakes Frodo
ArPharazonV: Gimli, outside, guards Gollum
VardaValar1: The Ring is very strong, trying to work against all these obstacles though, so it is split up
ArPharazonV: Gollum squeels, screams, yells
ArPharazonV: manages to bite Gimli in the ankle, and hops into Mount Doom even if his legs and arms are tied up
VardaValar1: Sproingly little fellow
ArPharazonV: sees Legolas struggling with Frodo
ArPharazonV: throws aside Pippin (again)
VardaValar1: Poor Pip
ArPharazonV: rushes to Frodo and Legolas
VardaValar1: Gimli right behind
ArPharazonV: bites the Ring from Frodo's finger
VardaValar1: *dwarvish curses also behind*
ArPharazonV: Gimli is indeed right behind
ArPharazonV: and pushes Gollum, with the Ring, off the edge...
ArPharazonV: and thus Mordor blows up
VardaValar1: Legolas holds Frodo back from any attempt to grab the Ring while Gimli is after Gollum
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: and so comes the end to Gollum and the Ring...
VardaValar1: We have a use for so many Eagles : )
ArPharazonV: heheh
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: They were probably expecting a larger group than Frodo and Sam
ArPharazonV: the Eagles were lurking around already, waiting for Aragorn and Gandalf to reach the Black Gate and start the battle...
VardaValar1: Sauron's protections are no longer over the area of Mordor
ArPharazonV: but the battle doesn't happen, since they weren't at the spot yet
ArPharazonV: so Gandalf summons the Eagles in some way
VardaValar1: The Battle might have been just starting
ArPharazonV: and says: "Go pick up my companions at Mount Doom"
VardaValar1: Things moving along quickly with
VardaValar1: Boromir handy
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
ArPharazonV: so the Battle was just starting
ArPharazonV: Aragorn just preparing to launch the first blow
ArPharazonV: and then the Ring gets destroyed
VardaValar1: Beregond survives even without Pippin, therefore
ArPharazonV: jup
ArPharazonV: not that Beregond plays any major role at all
VardaValar1: Just so happens ; )
ArPharazonV: since Pippin never reaches Minas Tirith, and Denethor has no intention on burning himself and Faramir
ArPharazonV: Beregond is still a member of the force at Minas Tirith
VardaValar1: Denethor does see the Corsair fleet coming
ArPharazonV: and isn't even around when they go for the Black GAte
ArPharazonV: aye, but do you really think Boromir would let Denethor get away with it?
VardaValar1: He has to be present
ArPharazonV: do you think Boromir would let Denethor let himself burn and take Faramir with him?
VardaValar1: Nope, not if he knows about it
ArPharazonV: do you think Denethor would let himself burn knowing that his stronger son is still alive and fighting?
ArPharazonV: when there is still a good chance that Minas Tirith prevails?
VardaValar1: Seems unlikely
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: Wait on that
VardaValar1: He does not think there is a good chance at all
ArPharazonV: so the whole pyre-chapter never takes place
ArPharazonV: who knows...
VardaValar1: He still sees Minas Tirith as doomed, same info
ArPharazonV: Gandalf and Boromir know Aragorn is going for the Army of the Dead
ArPharazonV: so Gandalf and Boromir know they'll probably take over the Corsair-fleet, and free Lebennin
VardaValar1: Denethor knew
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: Gandalf was bringing Aragorn to replace him
VardaValar1: him and his House
ArPharazonV: right, but there was less evidence of Minas Tirith going down
VardaValar1: Only difference was his son was there
ArPharazonV: well, ok...
ArPharazonV: but that should still be enough to make it unlikely for him to have himself burn
VardaValar1: How much would they tell Denethor that he did not know the first time?
ArPharazonV: well, I think Boromir would be a little more enthousiastic about Aragorn and the army of the dead, but not sure
VardaValar1: Did Denethor know about that apb?
ArPharazonV: not sure... but I don't think so
ArPharazonV: he knew Aragorn was coming
ArPharazonV: and he knew a Corsair-fleet was coming
VardaValar1: He thought the Corsairs were the enemy
ArPharazonV: but he knew nothing about the Rangers, the Army of the Dead, or the fleet-takeover
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: That's kind of weird
VardaValar1: Maybe Gandalf was trying to keep Sauron from knowing through Denethor?
VardaValar1: So they had to keep it from him again, same reason?
ArPharazonV: uhm... was Gandalf even there when the Rangers overtook Aragorn?
VardaValar1: ah hah! No
ArPharazonV: when they decided to go for the Army of the Dead?
ArPharazonV: right
ArPharazonV: not even Gandalf knew
ArPharazonV: but in our version, he does know, and so does Boromir
VardaValar1: And he went without knowing, with Boromir, in our fanfic?
ArPharazonV: no, in our fanfic, he does know...
ArPharazonV: since this time, he was already around when the Elves and Rangers came
VardaValar1: So he could send the Elves to Fangorn
ArPharazonV: he wasn't in a hurry with Pippin, remember?
ArPharazonV: right
ArPharazonV: that too
ArPharazonV: so, Gandalf and Boromir know about Aragorn's little venture
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: and so, they can tell Denethor that hope is indeed coming from the South
ArPharazonV: thus giving Denethor that extra boost NOT to kill himself
ArPharazonV: thus, the whole pyre/Beregond chapter doesn't take place...
VardaValar1: He might feel disbelief, thinking the Ranger king and a disembodied army could not prevail
ArPharazonV: thus, Beregond doesn't show up at the Black Gate
VardaValar1: The army of the Dead could not touch anything
VardaValar1: They scared the Corsairs off the ships
ArPharazonV: right, but it should still be enough
ArPharazonV: to convince him to stay alive
ArPharazonV: and that's all that matters
VardaValar1: I'm not sure it's enough
ArPharazonV: and I'm sorry if I'm rushing things here
VardaValar1: It might be
ArPharazonV: but I need to go to bed soon
VardaValar1: You are doing fine
VardaValar1: And probably right
VardaValar1: Okies, only problem left is Aragorn's kingship
VardaValar1: Boromir and Faramir sit on Daddy, and let Gandalf crown Aragorn.
ArPharazonV: heheh
VardaValar1: All done. :-)
ArPharazonV: indeed, there's a lot of pressure on Denethor
VardaValar1: Sleep tight!
ArPharazonV: from the Elves, the Rangers, Gandalf, Faramir, Boromir, probably the Hobbits...
ArPharazonV: Rohan, perhaps...
ArPharazonV: so Denethor had to give in
VardaValar1: Eomer and Eowyn
ArPharazonV: and thus, Aragorn becomes king
VardaValar1: And Denethor is still Steward
ArPharazonV: Frodo goes home with only one wound
VardaValar1: Good!
VardaValar1: Faramir still prince of Ithilien?
VardaValar1: What does Boromir get?
ArPharazonV: Legolas never sees the sea....
ArPharazonV: Boromir? Oh, he gets to watch over either Osgiliath or Mordor...
VardaValar1: He can rebuild Osgiliath!
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: It was left as ruins
ArPharazonV: so, Boromir is prince of Osgiliath
VardaValar1: There we go
VardaValar1: But
VardaValar1: Gimli is not Lord of the Glittering Caves
ArPharazonV: Gimli doesn't get to see the Glittering Caves, and just goes home...
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: Nope
ArPharazonV: perhaps, with Balrog gone
ArPharazonV: he can become the new lord of Moria!
VardaValar1: Gimli and Legolas promised to go explore
ArPharazonV: hm?
VardaValar1: Lord of Moria! Excellent!
VardaValar1: hmm
ArPharazonV: and Legolas becomes the heir of Mirkwood...
ArPharazonV: problem solvved
VardaValar1: Can't tell me Legolas does not want to see Fangorn Forest, just like the twins
ArPharazonV: meh, perhaps on a side-stop
ArPharazonV: and perhaps Gimli hears rumors about Aglarond
ArPharazonV: and so it all works out!
VardaValar1: And they visit Rohan, and get a tour of the caves
ArPharazonV: aye
VardaValar1: Eomer needs the place fixed up and Gimli seems willing : )
ArPharazonV: heheh
VardaValar1: Legolas can be heir of Eryn Lasgalen, but Thranduil is still a deathless king
ArPharazonV: and now we know the 'what-if' if the Orcs get owned in Amon Hen...
VardaValar1: so he can still take care of things around Gondor and have his place in Ithilien, making the first Elven colony in ages
ArPharazonV: aye, indeed
ArPharazonV: but I'll be going now
VardaValar1: So Gimli gets Caves and Moria
ArPharazonV: time for bed
VardaValar1: Namarie!
VardaValar1: Aye!
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
ArPharazonV: aye, Gimli gets Caves and Moria
ArPharazonV: Legolas gets Eryn Lasgalen and the heir-ship of Thranduil
ArPharazonV: and so it all works out for the better, in the end...
ArPharazonV: time to save!
VardaValar1: A better ship than the book's : )
VardaValar1: Aye1
ArPharazonV: saved
VardaValar1: But Tolkien still rules.
ArPharazonV: heheh
ArPharazonV: sent
VardaValar1: Thank you!
VardaValar1: Another article is in
VardaValar1: Namarie
ArPharazonV: :-)
ArPharazonV: Namarie
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FINARFIN010 (22:26:59): heya
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