Valar Guild

May 15, 2005 Meeting

5pm ESDT (GMT -5)

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
IRC:, join channel #valarguild Public Chat Valar
Sigma Chat: click on  Type in your guild name as the user name.
Say a greeting when you enter on any of these platforms so we'll know you're there!
Back to News
Transcript team: Ar-Pharazon, Menelvagor, Varda

Attending (11):
    ArathornValar, ArPharazonV, Eonwe Valar, [Fangorn-Valar contributed to the Tolkien chat by phone], Gil-galad-V/Xseanzee disco, GilraenV, Irime, FarmerMaggot-V/bnetValar/Bridge/SigmaChatApp, Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V, VardaValar1

Meeting Begins
    Tolkien Encyclopedia:
       New contributions by Haleth-(V): Article "Nienna". Poem: "Nienna". Novel: "Haleth's Song".
    Guild Index updated
    Bridge improvement by Farmer Maggot-(V) for !list
    Program for users to connect directly to our Sigma Chat without going through the Java slowdown. By Farmer Maggot-(V). Small Download.
       Valar Chat ID: 90005. This program was created during the meeting by Farmer to handle a problem some had with the usual connection.
    WoW: USA Friday gaming report 
    Eonwe-(Valar)'s topic: Sentience in animals and plants in Tolkien.
       The discussion focused mainly on Ent sentience. Ent relatonship with animals.
       Tangent on Saruman and his relationship with the forest.
       Tangent on other Maiar in Middle-earth.
       Discussion of Elves teaching Ents to talk.
           Tangent on the English word "dumb" for both mute and stupid, and the similar Dutch word "stom".
           Tangents on other words and ancient history and mythology, oh my.
               Weirdly, the discussion of ancients wanting to claim descent from the gods tangented into Tolkien:
                  Were the Stewards descended from Elros and therefore from a Maia? Mardil seems to be from a different line.
                      Sleepy confusion over more than one Hurin, as Mardil comes from the line of Hurin.
                      Elvish blood in the Stewards and others.

You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
GilraenV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Heya
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Gonna be afk for a bit, but thought I'd log in first. I have to do something, but I'll be back as soon as possible.
ArPharazonV: just hanging around in the barrens now, as a Night elf... it's pretty fun, actually, as long as you can avoid the guards and major cities...
Eonwe Valar: hehe yeah
Menelvagor Valar (16:55:02): Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: I can't make it to the meeting tonight, doing Sunken Temple
ArPharazonV: avoid the guards, cities, and pvp... and this zone makes for a nice vacation ;-)
bnetValar has entered the room.
TheSirG3 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
TheSirG3: Aiya
ArPharazonV: woo, reached my goal... the goblin town of ratchet
TheSirG3: heh
(17:08:12) VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Varda
Menelvagor Valar: being afk here, Sunken Temple time
VardaValar1: okies
VardaValar1: I would have liked to have picked up 5 more scorpid scales. ;-)
ArPharazonV: brb, summoning ritual
VardaValar1: Sorry I was slow arriving

VardaValar1 (17:10:30): Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
VardaValar1: Member News:
VardaValar1: We are receiving requests for Tolkien-only membership, but not for full. At least that is something :-)
VardaValar1: Since you are all afk, I will just keep going and let you scroll.

VardaValar1 (17:11:48): Web News:
TheSirG3: I'm not AFK =)
VardaValar1: Haleth-(V) has been very busy
VardaValar1: Well hi, Farmer! : )
VardaValar1: Haleth has been writing for the Encyclopedia
VardaValar1: Article: Nienna
VardaValar1: Poem: Nienna
VardaValar1: 19 chapter story: Haleth's Song
VardaValar1: /salute Haleth-(V)
VardaValar1: Guild Index page has been updated, as per member comments last meeting.
VardaValar1: Any other Web News?

VardaValar1 (17:13:26): Gaming:
VardaValar1: USA: World of WarCraft:
ArPharazonV: ok, here I am
VardaValar1: Hi, Phar
VardaValar1: Friday's guild gaming was in Uldaman
VardaValar1: Auros, Linqil, and Fainan chewed up a good chunk of dungeon, but did not complete the few quests we had left.
ArPharazonV: :-(
VardaValar1: We could use more for the next Uldaman run
VardaValar1: The experience and items were good. Much like doing a raid
VardaValar1: The company was the very best : )
ArPharazonV: you do raids?
ArPharazonV: cool
VardaValar1: Raids not on Horde
ArathornValar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Arathorn
ArathornValar: heya
TheSirG3: I've got a small bit of web news (it hit me now), I've figured out how SigmaChat does the user list better and I'm going to put my changes into the bridge when I get to it (this means !list will work better)
VardaValar1: We're on Gaming now
VardaValar1: That's good news :-)
VardaValar1: Ahh, works on BnetValar
bnetValar: ArPharazonV_V (SigmaChat): Aiya
bnetValar: ArPharazonV_V (SigmaChat): oops, wrong name..
bnetValar: ArPharazon (SigmaChat): that's better
bnetValar: Varda (SigmaChat): Heya : )
bnetValar: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): and this is the one I was looking for...
VardaValar1: Sigma took a while to come up for me today. Had the Java screen up a long time
VardaValar1: Any other Web News?
VardaValar1: Already did Gaming News for US WoW
VardaValar1: Any other Gaming News?
TheSirG3: I've written a Windows program to connect to SigmaChat if anyone's interested (no Java, yay)
VardaValar1: What do we need to do to use that program?
VardaValar1: Seems as if all my javascript programs were nerfed online
TheSirG3: it'd just need downloading once, and then it's like any other program
VardaValar1: I'll keep trying to find some updated way to do the same things
VardaValar1: Is there an URL to it?
TheSirG3: not yet, I need to finish a lil, should have it done in 15 min
VardaValar1: My drop down box died a horrible death, along with the rotating quotes.
VardaValar1: Okies
VardaValar1: Email it if we are not in a meeting, and I'll put it on the News.
VardaValar1: Any further news?
VardaValar1: I see SigmaChatApp joining us in Sigma Chat
ArPharazonV: indeed...
bnetValar: SigmaChatApp (SigmaChat): yea, just checking to see what needs a bit more polish
VardaValar1: If anyone has a Tolkien topic, please whisper me
VardaValar1: Cool. May we be of help?
bnetValar: SigmaChatApp (SigmaChat): not really
VardaValar1: Phar, are you still in the middle of a game?
ArPharazonV: no
VardaValar1: Eowyn now has the WoW comp, so I'm not in one either
ArPharazonV: I logged out right before 'ok, here I am'
VardaValar1: Okies :-)
VardaValar1: Fangorn is on the phone : )
Eonwe Valar: back
VardaValar1: wb
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
Eonwe Valar: hantalye

Tolkien Chat:
VardaValar1 (17:28:27):  Fangorn likes Eonwe's topic : )
VardaValar1: Sentience in animals/plants
ArPharazonV: trolls, huorns, spiders...
ArPharazonV: and, of course, ents and eagles...
VardaValar1: Fangorn wonders if he would be shepherding anything besides trees?
Eonwe Valar: Ents seemed to be interested more in trees as I recall, while entwives were interested in smaller things that bore flower or fruit.
VardaValar1: Good point
VardaValar1: Gardening
VardaValar1: Entwives taught humans some about crops, didn't they?
VardaValar1: That could lead one to wonder if they did anything at all with animals.
VardaValar1: Would they try to have beavers put their dams in better places?
ArPharazonV: I hardly think the ents and entwives would have been in any way hostile to animals (except spiders, wolves, etc)
ArPharazonV: but they probably didn't really take care for them either
VardaValar1: They might not have minded them either
VardaValar1: They have their proper place as well
VardaValar1: The corrupted servants of Mordor type would have been in trouble, I suspect
ArPharazonV: indeed, but if these animals prove hostile to the ents too (though it would be hard to think how they would attack them), they would have shown no mercy
VardaValar1: Mirkwood could have used a group of Ents!
VardaValar1: The Ent might brush a spiderweb from his beard : )
VardaValar1: if he noticed
Eonwe Valar: both are creatures loved by Yavanna. I think Ents at least would've let things be. I'm not sure about Entwives.
Eonwe Valar: Fangorn seemed to recognize the need for trees in certain situations.
VardaValar1: The Entwives like to have more control, so they might have told them to move on
ArPharazonV: "shoo!"
ArPharazonV: "you're making webs in my crops!"
Eonwe Valar: most specifically wood, but got burned up (no pun intended) over Saruman's careless deforestation.
VardaValar1: "Make them more easterly and catch the bugs."
VardaValar1: Saruman seemed to have started total clearing of forest instead of using them in a careful manner
ArPharazonV: "a wizard should know better!" or is that movie-only?
VardaValar1: We'll let you look it up : )
ArPharazonV: heh.... brb, I suppose..
Eonwe Valar: Whether it's movie or book, it's true.
VardaValar1: Fangorn knew about it all before the hobbits came
Eonwe Valar: A Wizard should know better.
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: He did know better, but he decided to throw in his lot with what he saw as the winner
VardaValar1: Since he was crafting his own rings, Saruman may have hoped to make one that would make him stronger than Sauron eventually.
Eonwe Valar: Had he burned and replanted, Fangorn would've thought little of it.
VardaValar1: Proper forestry requires some thinning and even burning
Eonwe Valar: Aye. As much is suggested in the Foreword to LotR.
ArPharazonV: hmm... I was thinking about that, to suggest as a topic... the exact nature of Saruman's corruption... but I'll remember it for next meeting
VardaValar1: If it works into this one, go ahead : )
ArPharazonV: well, it would be a serious tangent, of course...
Orodreth V has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Saruman did not have all his powers, as the Valar kept them back and gave him an old man's body
ArPharazonV: but brb, searching for that quote...
VardaValar1: Aiya Orodreth : )
Eonwe Valar: Saruman could make better use of it than that. If he planted these trees, perhaps he could've exercised some sway over them.
Orodreth V: Aiya all.
Orodreth V: /me goes bakc to sleep.
Eonwe Valar: He could've been truly Master of Fangorn, done properly.
VardaValar1: You could tell us your thoughts too, Oro : )
VardaValar1: I think he would have had some difficulty with canny old Fangorn
Eonwe Valar: Maybe it's a good thing Saruman doesn't have my mind :}
Eonwe Valar: Fangorn risk an Entish kinslaying?
VardaValar1: I think he was trying to sway the trees to his thinking, one reason Fangorn had not protested sooner
VardaValar1: But Sauron pushed Saruman to make the army and weapons, speeding him up, and his voice power was lessening
VardaValar1: Those things that made him strong with his persuasive Voice were undermined by his turning to the ways of Sauron
Eonwe Valar: I got the impression more that he was lulling them into a false sense of security, similar to Rohan.
VardaValar1: He did seem to be doing that
Eonwe Valar: And it was working until nosy Hibbits started asking questions and making Fangorn think :}
VardaValar1: or Fangorn would've marched sooner
Eonwe Valar: er, Hobbits.
VardaValar1: Aye : )
VardaValar1: Have to watch out for those little Hibbits
Eonwe Valar: lol
VardaValar1: Other life forms were sentient then that are so no longer
VardaValar1: Maybe the loss of the elves had something to do with it
ArPharazonV: nope, can't find the quote... oh well...
Eonwe Valar: Or at least "we" no longer understand their tongue
VardaValar1: The elves certainly could not make new sentient trees if they went West.
VardaValar1: Good point
VardaValar1: The trees on our block probably recite vast amounts of poetry that we miss
ArPharazonV: would they understand our tongue? ;-)
VardaValar1: Maybe if we spoke Elvish?
ArPharazonV: or just Westron...
Eonwe Valar: Might have to yell it at the trees at this point, or set their alarm.
Eonwe Valar: "Bararum!"
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: They may not think we are worth talking to
ArPharazonV: I found it!
Eonwe Valar: Hey! I'm lots of fun to talk to :} And so are you :}
VardaValar1: Excellent
VardaValar1: Hey, that's right : )
ArPharazonV: at the end of the 'treebeard' chapter, when they leave for Isengard
Eonwe Valar: Giuven half a chance, I'm sure some of us could put an Ent to task :}
ArPharazonV: "Wizards ought to no better: they do know better. There is no curse in Elvish..."
ArPharazonV: on the third-last page in my version of TT
Orodreth V: Bleh. Can't go to sleep. what are we discussing?
ArPharazonV: *know
Eonwe Valar: Sentience, specifically ents right now.
ArPharazonV: instead of "no"
VardaValar1: Sentience in plants and animals
VardaValar1: with side excursions into Saruman's misbehavior
VardaValar1: You and me, aye Eonwe : )
Eonwe Valar: :}
Orodreth V: The directions our discussions on here take are remarkably similar to the ones in my socratic seminars at schoool, in that only Eru knows where we're going. But anywho..
ArPharazonV: perhaps they only understand Westron, and not the English Tolkien made of it ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Maybe old English would be close enough.
VardaValar1: Socrates is one of my favorite philosophers, so that might be why. ;-)
Orodreth V: After just reading Aristotle, I can tell you how plants/animals/minerals/humans are classified.
Orodreth V: But I really don't understand what we're discussing? Are we asking if Ents are rational or..?
ArPharazonV: rational... sentient... their policies concerning plants and animals... and the sentience of other plants and animals
Eonwe Valar: Just general sentience in plants and animals, seing where it takes us mostly
Eonwe Valar: Ents are the most prominent example of plants.
Eonwe Valar: Well, my time has come :}
Orodreth V: I don't see how anyone can call a plant sentinent. Animals, yes. Plants, no.
VardaValar1: Tell that to Fangorn
Eonwe Valar: I'll be on WoW tonight quite likely for thos eable to catch me :}
VardaValar1: Your time to leave?
VardaValar1: oh cool!
Orodreth V: I think Ents aren't strictly plants.
VardaValar1: What time about?
VardaValar1: Trees turn Entish
Orodreth V: Can anyone find where Ents are made in the Silm? I don't have my copy handy.
ArPharazonV: how about Huorns? they could be plants turned Entish
VardaValar1: "Aule and Yavanna"
Eonwe Valar: take care everyone and have fun :}
ArPharazonV: and old Willow-man?
VardaValar1: The Huorns tended to be dark Ents
Orodreth V: No, I want to see something..hold on, I'll fidn my copy.
VardaValar1: Namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie
VardaValar1: Old Man Willow may have been a Huorn
VardaValar1: His influence reached far across the forest, like an Ent, and he was dark at heart
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
Orodreth V: BoLT 1, 2, 3, the Theogony, Greek Tragidies, the Odyssey, why do clocks run clockwise and other imponderable, and vb in 24 hours.
VardaValar1: It never actually says, I don't think. Left to us to figure out as we travel with the Hobbits and learn with them.
Orodreth V: Ok, need to go downstairs.
Orodreth V: back in 5
ArPharazonV: hmm... how were Ents created... I think spirits were sent out to the Olvar and the Kelvar (or something like that), the plants and animals
VardaValar1: Don't think there is a BoLT 3 : )
ArPharazonV: thus creating the Ents and the Eagles
VardaValar1: Remember the chapter "Aule and Yavanna"?
ArPharazonV: yes, chapter 2 in the Silm
VardaValar1: Lovely bit on it there
ArPharazonV: what I recall here, I got from that chapter
VardaValar1: And yes, spirits were sent out to take care of plants and animals
VardaValar1: I can't help but think Tom and Goldberry could fall under that category, if they weren't outright Maiar of Yavanna.
VardaValar1: Could be Tom was a Maia, and Goldberry was a daughter of the Maia in the river?
VardaValar1: But well, we are not ever told straight out. : )
VardaValar1: If Melian could have a daughter, other Maiar could too.
ArPharazonV: I thought the spirits housed in the animals and plants?
VardaValar1: Cool. Can you see the quote?
VardaValar1: That would certainly be Ents and Eagles
ArPharazonV: lemme find the book
VardaValar1: sure
ArPharazonV: here we go:
ArPharazonV: "Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar,
ArPharazonV: and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.
VardaValar1: Summon spirits from afar, sounds like Maiar.
ArPharazonV: For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young."
ArPharazonV: but how about 'and some will dwell therein'?
VardaValar1: Thank you for the quote!
ArPharazonV: that sure sounds like Ents
VardaValar1: they will go among and some will dwell therein and be held in reverence
VardaValar1: So some are loose and some are within
VardaValar1: It does indeed
ArPharazonV: and the loose ones... that could be Tom Bombadil
VardaValar1: Aye
Orodreth V: Ok, I can't find Silm.
VardaValar1: I learned to keep mine in a shelf by the comp
Orodreth V: I got a bunch of greek books I need to return to school, and some other Tollkine books, but no Silm.
VardaValar1: Fangorn made me a shelf just for that : )
Orodreth V: Did bring UT up, though.
ArPharazonV: I went upstairs to find it, couldn't, came back to my pc, and there it was...
VardaValar1: That could be handy
VardaValar1: It was summoned, Phar : )
ArPharazonV: heheh
ArPharazonV: probably for the previous meeting ;-)
Orodreth V: anyways, with the 'spirits that dwell within' thing, I think that fairly clearly stats they're plants, but made rational by something other than themselves.
VardaValar1: Care to toss a few articles my way for the Folklore & Mythology page, Oro? ;-)
Orodreth V: Once I'm awake.
Orodreth V: And I finsih my homework that I've ignored for a week.
Orodreth V: Then sure.
VardaValar1: And the elves were said to wake up the trees by talking to them
Orodreth V: Trees or ents?
VardaValar1: So the spirits might have gone to sleep, then awakened to elven voices?
ArPharazonV: but remember, the Ents were already in existence in the First Age
VardaValar1: It said trees, but that might just be how it appeared
ArPharazonV: they took care of the remaining Dwarves coming from Menegroth
Orodreth V: I thought the ents were already herding trees by the time the el;ves came arouhnd,. but the elves taught them to speak.
VardaValar1: That is why we have to drag in quotes : )
Orodreth V: I'll look if anything is in UT.
ArPharazonV: that's basically the point when discussion lore from a number of books ;-)
VardaValar1: Fangorn said the Elves started it
ArPharazonV: finding quotes
VardaValar1: Now digging through copious words from Treebeard
Orodreth V: Just as a side-note, there are far too many names for ents.
VardaValar1: But there were trees that were not ents that woke also
VardaValar1: Not if you are playing an Ent character and need more names ;-)
ArPharazonV: skinbark, beechbone, quickbeam...
VardaValar1: Ents "learned of the Elves and talked to the trees."
VardaValar1: spoke instead of talked, pardon
ArPharazonV: btw, random funny movie someone in the war3 forum showed... if it doesn't work, try pressing f5
ArPharazonV: ok, back on topic...
ArPharazonV: are there really trees that were not ents that woke also?
VardaValar1: Yes
ArPharazonV: that would make void the point we made about plants not being sentient...
VardaValar1: "Many men learned the crafts of the Entwives and honoured them greatly"
VardaValar1: quote to back up an earlier commment.
Orodreth V: Well, nothing in UT is helpful for us.
Orodreth V: Were Huorns rational?
Orodreth V: I thought they were mentioned as being 'sleepy' or whatnot, right?
VardaValar1: yes, Oro
VardaValar1: Here' s a tree quote
Orodreth V: Ok, nevermind, than.
VardaValar1: "Many of those trees were my friends, creatures I had known from nut and acorn; many had voices of their own that are lost for ever now."
VardaValar1: Book quote, used in the movie in a different way
Orodreth V: Only some had voices of their own, though.
VardaValar1: Here Treebeard is talking with the Hobbits when first they met.
Orodreth V: There were some trees whihc were not even in the slightest sentinent.
VardaValar1: Shortly after, Fangorn calls the Entmoot
VardaValar1: Sure. Most trees were not awake.
Orodreth V: Much less rational.
Orodreth V: Hmm.
Orodreth V: Could Yavanna have sent out many more spirits than we realize?
VardaValar1: It does not say how many, but the number could have been very great
Orodreth V: Exactly.
VardaValar1: Radagast may have been working with them.
VardaValar1: ahh, here1
ArPharazonV: it could have been very close before Radagast actually became one of them ;-)
Orodreth V: All the 'trees' who we thought were becoming huorns were actually spirits that didn't heed Yavanna's call.
Orodreth V: It's a possibility at least.
VardaValar1: "Still I take more kindly to Elves than to others; it was the Elves that cured us of dumbness long ago,..."
Orodreth V: Is dumbness a word? :-P
VardaValar1: So the Ents apparently could not talk until the Elves helped them
VardaValar1: Dumbness refers to being mute
ArPharazonV: it was in Westron ;-)
VardaValar1: It is a proper English word
VardaValar1: Not many young people are now aware of it
VardaValar1: They use it to mean "stupid", deriving from the idea that if one could not speak, he must be stupid.
VardaValar1: Dumb can be a synonym for mute.
VardaValar1: Fangorn has a lot to say : )
VardaValar1: Fun reading
ArPharazonV: hmm.... did you know
VardaValar1: Here's a nice bit of Fangorn's philosophy
ArPharazonV: the Dutch word for 'mute' as in unable to speak is the same word that means stupid?
VardaValar1: "There is naught that an old Ent can do to hold back that storm; he must weather it or crack."
VardaValar1: Sounds like English : )
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: What is the word?
ArPharazonV: stom
ArPharazonV: it means both stupid and mute... so in a way it relates to the word 'dumb'
ArPharazonV: although we have another word for that as well ;-)
VardaValar1: Stupid no longer is the same word it used to be either
ArPharazonV: and not in the 'mute'-sense
VardaValar1: That may be the best translation for stom then
ArPharazonV: no, stupid is stom, dumb is dom...
ArPharazonV: but only stom means mute
ArPharazonV: very peculiar relation to English ;-)
VardaValar1: Stupid: slow-witted or dazed state of mind
VardaValar1: One can be slapped stupid, for instance
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: So what is mute, Phar?
VardaValar1: dom?
ArPharazonV: mute? the official word we use for it is 'stom'
ArPharazonV: dom is dumb
ArPharazonV: stom is stupid, as well as mute
VardaValar1: Stom is mute plus stupid, ok
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: and we have no seperate word for mute alone, as you do
VardaValar1: That is the word to translate as "dumb".
VardaValar1: English is rather Germanic : )
ArPharazonV: yes, you'd think so ;-)
ArPharazonV: yes, Dutch is Germanic too
VardaValar1: Aye, more so even
ArPharazonV: Dutch, German, English and Danish
Orodreth V: 60% of English is Latin now.
Orodreth V: Stupid Normans.
Orodreth V: Ruined out language.
VardaValar1: Enriched it : )
ArPharazonV: but we all have influences from the Roman languages, indeed... Latin, French, Spanish, Italian, Greek...
VardaValar1: We have borrows from the entire worlds
Orodreth V: Destroied it, more like.
VardaValar1: Destroyed is more from the media ;-)
VardaValar1: Adding words allows more shades of meaning.
Orodreth V: English language is the single most confusing subject in the world.
Orodreth V: It makes quantum mechanics look like child's play.
VardaValar1: It is the most confusing language, because it is a mix of many.
VardaValar1: Well, not exactly child's play...
Orodreth V: Teensager's play. :-\
VardaValar1: Quantum mechanics is still loaded with unknowns.
Orodreth V: Compared to the English language, horrible thing it is, just about anthing is easy.
VardaValar1: Anything at all may be said using English, if one can master it.
Orodreth V: And yes, the Englih allows for shades of flammable and inflammable.
Orodreth V: And irregardless.
Orodreth V: Nope
VardaValar1: Those here who love Tolkien have shown a love of language. : )
Orodreth V: We still don't have the right verbs for time travel.
VardaValar1: And that includes Orodreth
VardaValar1: We'll work on it. : )
Orodreth V: Latin > all.
VardaValar1: With care, one can speak of time travel.
Orodreth V: Really, really hard.
VardaValar1: Latin is too limited.
Orodreth V: Hardly.
ArPharazonV: oh, believe me, English is way easier for us than French or even German...
VardaValar1: It died before it could meet many current concepts.
ArPharazonV: it has much easier grammar than Dutch, too
Orodreth V: Becasue you're exposed to it constantly.
VardaValar1: I find Chinese tough. One word with three inflections means three entirely different things.
Orodreth V: Anything it dosn't have a word for can be created with prefect regularity.
Orodreth V: ...becuase half of our "advanced" words come from Latin.
ArPharazonV: compare the 'de, het' in Dutch with the 'le, la' in French, and the 'the' in English... would you mind telling me which language is easier? ;-)
Orodreth V: Like, directly made out of two or three words.
VardaValar1: We use many compound words from Latin, and add Greek too.
Orodreth V: Oh, did you know that "layman" comes from Latin and, ultimatly, Greek for "idiot"?
VardaValar1: That is a problem. Plus the genders of words that we don't have in English.
Orodreth V: Yea.
Orodreth V: Genders can be both a help and a hinderance.
ArPharazonV: and did you know 'celt' comes from the Greek word for Barbarian? ;-)
VardaValar1: A nice way to insult people outside one's profession? ;-)
Orodreth V: Ar: Haha.
VardaValar1: To the Greeks, everyone else was a Barbarian.
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: so everyone was called Celtish
Orodreth V: Everyone WAS, just about.
Orodreth V: The only ones with anything thatcame close to the Greeks at that time were the Persians and the Egyptians.
VardaValar1: Gaelic is dreadful to work with for me.
ArPharazonV: in fact, the Celts were at war with Greece now and then... they really did spread all over Europe
Orodreth V: But then Alaxander had to go and kill off the Greeks.
VardaValar1: I think we went a tad off-topic concerning sentient plants and animals.
Orodreth V: Alexander*
Orodreth V: Perhaps. >.>
VardaValar1: Oh, we have a few left.
ArPharazonV: Alexander was a Greek... in a way... Macedonia was part of the Greek mainland, wasn't it?
Orodreth V: Yes, but I meant their supermacy inthe world.
Orodreth V: Yes.
VardaValar1: Ask any Greek. They know they are still superior.
Orodreth V: Macedonians were considered barbarians by the rest of the greeks.
Orodreth V: Haha.
VardaValar1: To any human, he is the center of everything due to his point of view.
Orodreth V: Ooo.
Orodreth V: Know a great website?
Orodreth V:
ArPharazonV: but still, Alexander did not 'kill off' the Greeks... he took control over them and led them to glory in the Middle-East...
VardaValar1: It is one of the fallacies we have to escape.
Orodreth V: And then died.
Orodreth V: And threw the greeks into chaos.
Orodreth V: more or less,at least
ArPharazonV: heh... the Empire fell into 4 pieces, one of which was... guess what... Greece!
Orodreth V: still a couple hundred years for the Romans to come
Orodreth V: But by then it was easy pickings.
VardaValar1: That website, "Squashed Philosophies". hehe
ArPharazonV: do you think the Greeks had been harder to conquer without that history?
Orodreth V: Course, the Romans had already read Machiavelli. ;-)
Orodreth V: They would have been much harder to conquor.
ArPharazonV: if Alexander had not basically united them, wouldn't they have been less suitable for dealing with Roman invaders?
VardaValar1: The Greeks were considered brilliant by the Romans, who adopted much of their mythology
VardaValar1: and other
Orodreth V: Just ask the PErsians.
Orodreth V: Nope.
ArPharazonV: didn't the Persians surrender their king when Alexander came along? or am I confusing 2 wars now?
Orodreth V: Witht he city-states conflicting, they would have been in top form to take on the Romans.
Orodreth V: Yes, but there was a war um
Orodreth V: couple hundred years prior to Alexander.
ArPharazonV: would the Romans not have played them out against each other? and then take them on one by one?
Orodreth V: They could have tried
Orodreth V: That's actually what they did, if I'm not mistaken.
Orodreth V: but the Persians tried that too.
ArPharazonV: 'divide and conquer'.... which is a lot easier if they're already divided
Orodreth V: didn't work until they had control of the seas.
VardaValar1: I declare After-meeting, as of a while ago. ;-)
TheSirG3: heh
Orodreth V: But the Greeks almost always united to take on a forgin threat.
ArPharazonV: so what's the difference between before and after Alexander?
Orodreth V: They would fight each other until they were blue int he face, but if someoen else came along, after much heming and hawing, they'd take them down.
Orodreth V: They were already united.
ArPharazonV: yes, they were.
VardaValar1: Sounds like a family.
Orodreth V: There was no synergy.
Orodreth V: Well, the Greeks were rather family-oriented.
ArPharazonV: You mean... because they weren't at war with each other, they were less capable of uniting towards a common foe?
Orodreth V: Yes.
ArPharazonV: that sounds fairly odd..
Orodreth V: IT makes sence if you think about it.
Orodreth V: Let me think of another example.
VardaValar1: They became dependent on Alexander's orders rather than thinking for themselves.
ArPharazonV: even 100 years after?
Orodreth V: I want to say the thirty years war, but I'm not really familiar with it.
ArPharazonV: or more?
ArPharazonV: wait... when was Alexander?
Orodreth V: Not much over a century
Orodreth V: er
Orodreth V: 200 bce ish?
ArPharazonV: 130 something?
Orodreth V: lemme see
ArPharazonV: 200 bc ish?
VardaValar1: I'm going by what you said, working off that.
ArPharazonV: wait... 330 bc?
Orodreth V: (356-323 BC)
ArPharazonV: indeed, that's about a century...
Orodreth V: And the romans came...
Orodreth V: um
Menelvagor Valar: bah :-(
ArPharazonV: well, let's see... Hannibal crossed the Alps 218 BC.. did they take Greece before or after Carthage?
ArPharazonV: search with me...
Orodreth V:
Orodreth V: So the romans first tried in 214.
Orodreth V: so about a century, yes.
Orodreth V: But you musst realize, the general who took over for alexander in greece wouldn't have let a split occour, same for whoever followed him
Orodreth V: it's like an inherited principality
Orodreth V: easy to hold on to, hard to lose.
Orodreth V: The romans were just that good.
Orodreth V: And latin > greek.
Orodreth V: They stole half their words from it
Orodreth V: but so what
Orodreth V: still cooler
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: I still like 'Eureka'..
VardaValar1: Girl's name : )
ArPharazonV: really?
VardaValar1: Yes. He called for her
ArPharazonV: if I ever have a daughter, I always wanted to give her the name of a greek nimph or goddess or something...
VardaValar1: That's what a guy does when he makes a wonderful discovery, he must share it.
ArPharazonV: 'Echo' :-)
Orodreth V: brb
Orodreth V: f00d
VardaValar1: Those names have a lot of baggage that she will have to contend with. Pick carefully.
ArPharazonV: heh, indeed...
ArPharazonV: what would her life be like if I called her Echo... Io... Nemesis... Andromeda...
VardaValar1: I grabbed food and ate in front of the comp, but not recommended.
Orodreth V: I always do that.
Orodreth V: Yea.
VardaValar1: maybe you can get away with it : )
Orodreth V: Naming your daughter Hera might scare off learned men..and then you do have to deal with "Zeus". ;-)
ArPharazonV: heh...
VardaValar1: I think Darth Vader turned to evil from being called "Anni"...
ArPharazonV: how about Artemis?
Orodreth V: Let's see.
VardaValar1: Remember the name will be shortened for everyday use.
Orodreth V: Yup.
ArPharazonV: Artis :-)
VardaValar1: Arty : )
ArPharazonV: that's the name of a famous Dutch zoo in Amsterdam, Artis :-)
Orodreth V: Take Sam's dad's advice. :-P
VardaValar1: Aye!
Orodreth V: I don't think Artemis has too much baggage.
VardaValar1: Think again
ArPharazonV: and how about Andromeda? except for the recent tv-series?
Orodreth V: Whole thing with Agamemnon's daughter though..
Orodreth V: Or am I thinking of Athena?
ArPharazonV: aren't they both daughters of Zeus? or is Artemis Roman?
Orodreth V: Wait, no, Athena popped out of her dad's head.
Orodreth V: Artemis is the sister of Apollo
ArPharazonV: ok, daughter of Zeus then
VardaValar1: Agamemnon's daughter, sacrificed for smooth sailing?
Orodreth V: Yea.
Orodreth V: Arty is daughter of Hera
Orodreth V: Athena is daughter of some other godess
Orodreth V: who zeus swalloed
Orodreth V: to prevent her kid from overthrowing him
VardaValar1: More than one version of where they came from
Orodreth V: or something
VardaValar1: just to confuse things.
Orodreth V: greek mythology can get reeeeealy weird.
Orodreth V: I've got Hesiod's Theogony here. :-P
VardaValar1: Remember where myth came from, originally explaining natural phenomena, or used for mnemonic devices, that is to help remember something else entirely.
ArPharazonV: wait... so Arty is daughter of Hera and Agamemnon?
Orodreth V: Nonon
Orodreth V: arty is daughter of Hera/Zeus
Orodreth V: however
ArPharazonV: so what's this about the daughter of Aga?
Orodreth V: Aga killed a deer she liked
Orodreth V: so
Orodreth V: she had Posiedon give the greeks bad winds for sailing to troy
ArPharazonV: she told him to sacrifice his daughter... yes, that starts to ring a bell...
Orodreth V: unless aga sacrificed his daughter to her
Orodreth V: if you watched helen of troy, that's complete, sorry, but it is, bs
Orodreth V: his daughter was a teenager and he tricked her into thinking she was marying achillies
Orodreth V: then he kilt her
Orodreth V: and arty said ok
Orodreth V: and they sailed to troy
Orodreth V: and achillies got pouty when aga took away his toy
ArPharazonV: I watched helen of troy, yes... was a pretty fun movie
Orodreth V: and so the siege lasted 10 years
Orodreth V: that was a horrible movie
ArPharazonV: indeed, it was bs
ArPharazonV: completely biased
Orodreth V: um, certian secens were...enjoyable to watch, yes :-P
ArPharazonV: but I'm still glad I saw it :-)
Orodreth V: but the movie itself was horrible
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: I might know what scenes you're talking about
Orodreth V: rawr
Orodreth V: um
Orodreth V: anyways!
VardaValar1: Artemis's parentage versions: sometimes the daughter of Zeus and Demeter or Persephone, or of Dionysus and Isis. Greeks said she was the daughter of Leto.
Orodreth V: stupid greeks
VardaValar1: Artemis is a merger of several divinities, so you get several origins.
Orodreth V: they can preserve the odyssey for generations without a slip of the tounge
Orodreth V: but can they keep their stupid gods straight?
Orodreth V: noooooo
ArPharazonV: you don't know that, they might have added and twisted the tale a little :-)
Orodreth V: nope
Orodreth V: we have multiple "original writings"
VardaValar1: Politics enters in .
Orodreth V: all similar
Orodreth V: yea
Orodreth V: who was Homer...we don't know
Orodreth V: some suggest homer was just the name for a blind man
Orodreth V: like, the common noun
VardaValar1: For instance, Romans like to claim descent from gods, so they twist stories to give them that, especially Caesars.
Orodreth V: and poets were often consiudered blint
ArPharazonV: *must... restrain self... must... not mention... B.....*
ArPharazonV: ok, I can control myself
Orodreth V: Varda: EVERYONE likes to claim desent fromt he Gods. It makesthings so much easier when you deal with the little people.
VardaValar1: Does that mean you can now mention B without hyperventilating?
Orodreth V: See Egyptians.
Orodreth V: ..and half the Greek kings too, come to think of it
VardaValar1: Hmm, I'm called Varda so must hush now...
ArPharazonV: it means I can keep from mentioning the B-word at all :-)
Orodreth V: /me is awful lost
Orodreth V: /me shrugs
TheSirG3: I have been for a while Oro
Orodreth V: /me starts to go to sleep
ArPharazonV: it's fun to be descended from the Gods
Orodreth V: uneducated bum!
Orodreth V: I mean UH
VardaValar1: That 's ok. The whole subject is a mess since ancient times. :-)
ArPharazonV: it usually gives you some strength above the normal mortals
Orodreth V: /me sleeps
VardaValar1: Hey, I picked Faramir!
ArPharazonV: *pokes Orodreth*
ArPharazonV: what?
VardaValar1: Promoted to Valie
Orodreth V: /me automatically kicks back
VardaValar1: So, baggage on the name for Arty? We want to go into that? ;-)
ArPharazonV: is Faramir in any way descended from Elros? we know the Stewards were from a high Numenorean family, but still...
Orodreth V: He could be.
VardaValar1: He came down from the king's steward, Mardil was it?
ArPharazonV: in that case, he would be descended from at least one god(dess), a Maia :-)
Orodreth V: Mardil sounds right.
Orodreth V: But do we have any info on Mardil?
VardaValar1: more researdh
TheSirG3: hm, I've written 10 lines of code the last hour..... I've been having to look everything up, I've never messed with databases before =P
VardaValar1: grab our books now
Orodreth V: where would that be?
VardaValar1: You can't say that anymore, Farmer ;-)
Orodreth V: lol
VardaValar1: See geneologies, indices
VardaValar1: RotK index mentions Mardil
Orodreth V: I don';t have LotR anymore.
Orodreth V: :-\
ArPharazonV: ...what? *gasps*
VardaValar1: Get it again then
Orodreth V: Moneay.
Orodreth V: I'll get a job this summer, though
Orodreth V: that's one of the first things I'm getting
VardaValar1: Two Towers, "The Window on the West"
Orodreth V: anlong with a lot of money for gas
VardaValar1: And birthdays, Christmas requests
Orodreth V: :-D
Orodreth V: I get my permit in juneeeeeeee
VardaValar1: *Getting off the road now*
Orodreth V: lol
Orodreth V: I won't drive down to see you...unless I let you know first. ;-)
ArPharazonV: ooh... birthdays... still haven't gotten anything for mine...
ArPharazonV: I suggested computer-games, they think I have enough of those...
ArPharazonV: I suggested Tolkien-books, and guess what...
ArPharazonV: they think I have enough of those too!
VardaValar1: "We of my house are not of the line of Elendil, though the blood of Numenor is in us."
ArPharazonV: the line of Elendil... but it says nothing about before Elendil
VardaValar1: "For we reckon back our line to Mardil, the good steward, who ruled in the king's stead when he went away to war."
VardaValar1: "And that was King Earnur, last of the line of Anarion, and childless, and he came never back."
VardaValar1: That part does say Numenorean, anyway.
ArPharazonV: hmm.... small, in-between question...
ArPharazonV: are there Alliance quests in Durotar and Mulgore?
VardaValar1: I don't know.
VardaValar1: They do seem to be everywhere though. : )
VardaValar1: Constant travel.
ArPharazonV: I did find a few in the Barrens... one quest in the Wailing Caverns, and a bunch of Goblin-quests of course...
ArPharazonV: but the other two zones? not sure
Orodreth V: oo
Orodreth V: haha
Orodreth V:
Orodreth V: read the newspost
Orodreth V: :-P
VardaValar1: hmm, more Aragorn description using Denethor.
VardaValar1: RotK, "Minas Tirith"
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: that link...
VardaValar1: "Pippin saw his carven face with its proud bones and skin like ivory, and the long curved nose between the dark deep eyes; and he was reminded not so much of Boromir as of Aragorn."
Orodreth V: "-Son of a disgruntled player."
VardaValar1: Shortly after, Denethor says "Vorondil father of Mardil"
Orodreth V: I'll leave the lineage things up to you two.
Orodreth V: It always confuses me. x.x
VardaValar1: He says Vorondil had heard that same horn blowing, the one Boromir had
Orodreth V: and
Orodreth V: I'm going to play
Orodreth V: warcraft 3
Orodreth V: because
Orodreth V: I am a poor, poor man
Orodreth V: and cannot afford wow
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: Only because you need your books.
Orodreth V: this summer though...
Orodreth V: ...I'll probally get guild wars
Orodreth V: just becasue
Orodreth V: I want to be non-conformist
VardaValar1: WoW will be around a while, and you still have to remember to ask aunts, uncles, grandparents, etc
VardaValar1: Some others have guild wars too. How then are you non-conformist?
Orodreth V: ...bugger
Orodreth V: um
VardaValar1: Way it goes.
Orodreth V: I think of something
Orodreth V: or just give in
VardaValar1: Just being Valar makes you non-conformist!
Orodreth V: conform ot anti-conformity
Orodreth V: my friend has a t-shirt that says that
Orodreth V: in really weid letters
VardaValar1: ahh, in RotK Appendix A, Mardil remained the steward a long time as no one saw the king's body and could not prove his death.
VardaValar1: How about Abnormality is the norm?
VardaValar1: Descendants of the king were few after the Kin-strife. It caused some to flee to Umbar, others married non-Numenoreans, so they did not have a pure line of descent.
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: but the Stewards were supposed to be quite pure in blood
VardaValar1: They didn't want to start another Kin-strife, so they had the Stewards keep the rule, while the crown lay in the lap of dead King Earnil.
VardaValar1: Aye, pure Numenoreans
ArPharazonV: still, nothing about their origins before the Akallabeth...
VardaValar1: until Faramir went and married a shieldmaiden of the Rohirrim.
VardaValar1: ok, on to Appendix A
ArPharazonV: just because they weren't descended from Elendil, it doesn't mean they weren't descended from Tar-Miniature
ArPharazonV: *Minyatur
VardaValar1: The House of the Stewards was called the House of Hurin.
VardaValar1: They were descendents of the Steward of King Minardil, Hurin of Emyn Arnen, a man of high Numenorean race.
ArPharazonV: high.. Numenorean... race..
VardaValar1: After his day the kings had always chosen their stewards from among his descendents.
ArPharazonV: Tolkien sure liked to keep it vague, didn't he?
Irime has entered the room.
VardaValar1: You've heard of Hurin! : )
VardaValar1: Aiya, Irime : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Irime: Aiya all
VardaValar1: We were most recently talking about the line that Faramir came from.
VardaValar1: Line of Mardil the good Steward
VardaValar1: Son of Vorondil
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Now in App. A of RotK
VardaValar1: Aiya Gil-galad : )
Xseanzee disco: heyyy : )
VardaValar1: The House of Stewards were descended from Hurin
VardaValar1: of Emyn Arnen
Irime: a topic a have much to learn about, good
VardaValar1: Mardil started out in the time of the Watchful Peace
VardaValar1: Don't worry about being late to meetings. They can drag on seven hours and may not get good until after the first hour ;-)
VardaValar1: For proof, see transcripts
ArPharazonV: 7 hours? that's the record?
VardaValar1: Luckily, all we ask is to show up and say hi!
VardaValar1: Probably not
VardaValar1: One I happened to notice.
Irime: wow
VardaValar1: People come in and out according to time zones and activities.
ArPharazonV: I only remember four or five at most...
Orodreth V: ..or according to sleep patterns
Orodreth V: :-P
VardaValar1: aye : )
VardaValar1: Most of the people here are currently afk, then suddenly come alive
Orodreth V: /me disapperas back to WC3
VardaValar1: They scroll through what has been said and make their own comments, or just lurk ;-)
ArPharazonV: have fun!
VardaValar1: Are you leaving, Phar?
ArPharazonV: no, talking to Orodreth ;-)
Orodreth V: WC3 > WOW
ArPharazonV: but I won't be getting back to WoW today
Orodreth V: Just wanted to say that
ArPharazonV: my brother wants the pc later on
VardaValar1: And then we have several windows open all around so there are other conversations going like their game chat ;-)
ArPharazonV: in fact, I only have twenty minutes left in this meeting :-)
VardaValar1: Amazed you are still awake, Phar : )
ArPharazonV: so after that I'll save, send, and get out
VardaValar1: okies
ArPharazonV: currently, this is my only active AIM-window...
TheSirG3: hm, long meeting heh
ArPharazonV: but I'm quite busy on the internet in the meanwhile :-)
VardaValar1: Bridge giving you fits, Farmer Maggot?
Orodreth V: I have a firefox window open, one in irc, this aim window, another aim window, and wc3
TheSirG3: shouldn't be....
bnetValar: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): still here :-)
Orodreth V: adn thefirefox window has like 10 tabs open
VardaValar1: Excellent! You somehow ocntained the leakage?
TheSirG3: yeah, removed a bunch of logging code
ArPharazonV: let's see... this aim-window, the main buddy list for aim, one aim window which hasn't been used since before the meeting, one folder of documents where I was searching for the tolkien-tree for the descendence of the Stewards,
ArPharazonV: and a Firefox with 4 tabs:
ArPharazonV: the war3 forum, a wow-site, sigmachat, and the mythica site
ArPharazonV: which is currently open on Leto, mother of Artemis..
ArPharazonV: and that's basically it
VardaValar1: Squashed Philosophies here
VardaValar1: So we can work the line back from Hurin if we like.
ArPharazonV: no, I replaced Squashed Philosophies with that Carthage-site I linked to, and then with mythica
ArPharazonV: anyway back to the Stewards
VardaValar1: Hurin?
ArPharazonV: it may be, however, that Faramir had Elven blood, even if he didn't descend from Elros
ArPharazonV: for his mother was of the house of Dol Amroth
VardaValar1: Dol Amroth had elven blood from the lost handmaid of Nimrodel
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: Mithrellas
ArPharazonV: if I recall
VardaValar1: Legolas saw it in Imrahil, but said nothing of Boromir or Faramir, Imrahil's cousins, showing it.
ArPharazonV: in fact, Eomer wedded the sister or daughter of Imrahil, right?
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: Lothiriel?
ArPharazonV: which means Elven blood came into the royal house of Rohan
VardaValar1: both on Eomer's and Eowyn's sides
ArPharazonV: Lothiriel, yes, that could be it... and Faramir's mother was Finduilas?
VardaValar1: aye on the mother
ArPharazonV: the house of Dol Amroth was originally a Numenorean House of the Faithful, right?
ArPharazonV: which means they too could have descended from Elros...
VardaValar1: Go check : )
ArPharazonV: heh... that info could be spread anywhere
VardaValar1: Not all Numenoreans are from Elros
VardaValar1: I am still back on Mithrellas
GilraenV: Namarie, folks
ArPharazonV: right, but the main Numenorean houses might have been... remember, there was 3000 years of history between the founding of Numenor and its downfall
ArPharazonV: Namarie!
GilraenV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: one can have a lot of descendants in that time, especially concerning the King and important families
VardaValar1: Namarie Gilraen
ArPharazonV: so I think it quite likely that either, or both, of the houses of Dol Amroth and the House of Hurin could have been descended from Elros
VardaValar1: It's what we said before, everyone wants to claim descent from the "gods".
ArPharazonV: heh
VardaValar1: But we need to show it.
VardaValar1: Just being Numenorean is not enough
ArPharazonV: that's the problem with an unwritten past
ArPharazonV: we can only speculate, and go about probability
VardaValar1: People should learn to read Celtic knots....
VardaValar1: or go back and dig in these books harder
VardaValar1: Tough to do the whole thing during chat
VardaValar1: Farmer wants his program tested
VardaValar1: I've only gotten as far as dl'ing the zip
VardaValar1: Have you tried it yet, Phar?
ArPharazonV: no, not yet.... haven't got a link handy
VardaValar1: Scrolling back for it
ArPharazonV: and I have to go in five minutes...
ArPharazonV: ok, downloading
ArPharazonV: found it :-)
ArPharazonV: so, how does it work exactly? I've got it installed, and running...
TheSirG3: it's does the same thing as the online SigmaChat program, but it's a desktop program and it's not Java
ArPharazonV: so I fill in my name and connect? and then?
TheSirG3: 90005 is the Valar chat ID
ArPharazonV: ah
TheSirG3: and then click connect
Irime: Were the Stewards all from the line of Anarion?
ArPharazonV: no, they weren't descended from Elendil
Irime: hmm
bnetValar: ArPharazon (SigmaChat): ah
bnetValar: ArPharazon (SigmaChat): it works fine :-)
bnetValar: Varda (SigmaChat): yay!
bnetValar: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): yes, it sure does ;-)
VardaValar1: House of Hurin
Irime: So Eru's chart is succession then
Irime: okay that make's sense
VardaValar1: So that would be from Huor, Galdor
ArPharazonV: Hurin... of Emyn Arnen, right? not Hurin of the House of Hador?
VardaValar1: Different?
ArPharazonV: yes, I'd say so... a couple of thousand years
VardaValar1: drat, makes it tougher
ArPharazonV: Emyn Arnen lay south-east of Minas Tirith
ArPharazonV: Hithlum lay to the west of yet another Minas Tirith ;-)
VardaValar1: Not in Sil, so where are you finding him?
ArPharazonV: whoever mentioned Hurin of Emyn Arnen anyway?
ArPharazonV: that was you, wasn't it?
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: I'd say that Hurin wasn't the father of Turin and Nienor... seeing as they had no children, except one unborn one together
ArPharazonV: so if the Stewards descended from Hurin, it wouldn't be the same Hurin :-)
VardaValar1: App A:
VardaValar1: VardaValar1: They were descendents of the Steward of King Minardil, Hurin of Emyn Arnen, a man of high Numenorean race.
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: Hurin of the House of Hador, as in his grandson, wasn't of Numenorean House... nor was he a Steward to King Minardil
ArPharazonV: so either you're toying with me, or we have a serious misunderstanding
VardaValar1: I am quoting App A
VardaValar1: in more depth, here we go:
VardaValar1: "The House of the Stewards was called the House of Hurin, for they were descendants of the Steward of King Minardil (1621-34)
VardaValar1: ,
VardaValar1: Hurin of Emyn Arnen, a man of high Numenorean race.
ArPharazonV: indeed.
ArPharazonV: so this Hurin is the Steward of King Minardil
ArPharazonV: and of high Numenorean race
VardaValar1: After his day the kings had always chosen their stewards from among his descendants ;
ArPharazonV: so, obviously, not the Hurin from the Silmarillion
ArPharazonV: VardaValar1: House of Hurin
ArPharazonV: VardaValar1: So that would be from Huor, Galdor
ArPharazonV: or am I really confused now?
VardaValar1: and after the days of Pelendur the Stewardship became hereditary as a kingship, from father to son or nearest kin."
VardaValar1: ok, so who is Hurin of Emyn Arnen of high Numenorean race?
ArPharazonV: if only we knew that...
ArPharazonV: but I can tell you this, it's not the same Hurin as the one in the Silmarillion!
VardaValar1: Aye, and that is where the confusion hit
VardaValar1: ok
VardaValar1: np
ArPharazonV: so either you're playing with my head, I seriously misunderstood your words, or I'm seriously confuzzled...
VardaValar1: So who is this guy of high Numenorean race?
VardaValar1: Just stick with the quote part
VardaValar1: I got confused myself
VardaValar1: If he is of high Numenorean race, should we know him?
ArPharazonV: well, as far as I know, I haven't found any other info about him anywhere, ever
VardaValar1: okies
ArPharazonV: but if he was of high Numenorean race... wouldn't it be at least likely that he might have been descended from Elros?
VardaValar1: On to look up geneology lists, if you haven't already?
VardaValar1: You are reaching as much as I am :-)
Irime: It seems to be more common among men to name their children after historic people than among elves
ArPharazonV: well, it also happens among Elves... but with those we're not sure if they're not actually the same people ;-)
VardaValar1: The Gondorians seemed to name a lot of their children after Elves.
VardaValar1: Finduilas, whom we mentioned earlier, for instance.
Irime: true
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: Miriel
VardaValar1: So we have to look carefully to see who is being spoken of.
ArPharazonV: one day, we're going to look back at this confusion, and laugh hard...
VardaValar1: Geneologies can be a mess. We have one for SamWise and for Gimli, but not for Prince Legolas.
VardaValar1: Phar, I consider this just a chat
VardaValar1: We are trying to do our research in a hurry without all our books
ArPharazonV: Oropher-Thranduil-Legolas is all we know... and we're not even sure of Oropher :-)
VardaValar1: Oropher is pretty sure
ArPharazonV: any idea about Legolas' mother? Or Gimli's, for that matter?
VardaValar1: not mentioned
VardaValar1: Mothers often left out
ArPharazonV: indeed...
VardaValar1: At the moment, I don't have Gimli's in front of me
VardaValar1: I know for sure not mentioned for Legolas
ArPharazonV: it should be in Appendix A...
ArPharazonV: but probably only his father, Gloin, and other male ancestors
VardaValar1: My eyes are getting blurry. I'll let you tell me while I try to look a bit more slowly
VardaValar1: here it is
ArPharazonV: need glasses? or sleep?
VardaValar1: No mother mentioned for Gloin [wife]
VardaValar1: Too long in front of a comp
ArPharazonV: heheh
ArPharazonV: that could do the trick
ArPharazonV: "too long behind a pc? is that even possible?"
TheSirG3: meh, I've been on since 9 or so this morning =P
VardaValar1: Yes, it's possible
ArPharazonV: 9? hmm... I've been on since 3 pm... and since it's a 6-hour difference or so... I've been on just as long as you!
ArPharazonV: but I have a feeling I'll leave earlier than you ;-)
TheSirG3: only time I usually have problems is when it gets to be 3-4AM in the morning
TheSirG3: any programming done after then will be crap
ArPharazonV: heh
VardaValar1: ok, so you're younger :-)
TheSirG3: heh, indeed =)
ArPharazonV: programming... I've spent the afternoon surfing and playing WoW ;-)
ArPharazonV: first we had a long-term raid of Splintertree Post in Ashenvale...
VardaValar1: Then go right ahead and do the looking up. I don't mind : )
TheSirG3: I've spent the last hour and a half working on a to do list program
ArPharazonV: and after that I went to my very first instance :-)
TheSirG3: I'm close to the point where I can put my to do list for the program into it =P
ArPharazonV: Blackfathom Deeps!
VardaValar1: Namarie : )
ArPharazonV: ?
ArPharazonV: you're going?
VardaValar1: Does blurry eyed mean anything to you? :-)
ArPharazonV: yes, it does
TheSirG3: yes
ArPharazonV: but does it have to mean the end?
VardaValar1: And you were about to go anyway
VardaValar1: No
TheSirG3: he was about to go half an hour ago =P
VardaValar1: You guys can continue
VardaValar1: Aye :-)
Irime: Namarie
ArPharazonV: heh, indeed.. odd that my brother hasn't interfered yet...
ArPharazonV: Namarie
VardaValar1: I am only one person. You can dig in books and talk whether or not I'm here!
VardaValar1: Have a good time1
VardaValar1: Namarie
ArPharazonV: you too... sweet dreams :-)
VardaValar1: Not sleeping, lol
VardaValar1: Chores
ArPharazonV: oh, wait... it differs a few timezones...
ArPharazonV: yeah, ok :-)
VardaValar1 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: well, time for me too to go, I s'pose...
ArPharazonV: I'll save, send, and... is there a word for 'leave' which starts with an s?
ArPharazonV: I'll save, send, and see you later!
ArPharazonV: neh... has to be a better alternative... oh well
TheSirG3: sianora
TheSirG3: but I can't spell it
ArPharazonV: sayonara?
TheSirG3: perhaps
ArPharazonV: that's Japanese
ArPharazonV: so if that was the right one, it's the right one :-)
TheSirG3: no clue
TheSirG3: =P
ArPharazonV: ok, enough blabbering (sp?)
ArPharazonV (20:25:38): time to save
ArPharazonV (20:26:11): saved
ArPharazonV (20:27:16): oh, btw, if anything interesting happens after this, make and send your own transcript ;-)
TheSirG3 (20:27:22): heh
ArPharazonV (20:28:40): sent
ArPharazonV (20:28:49): well, see ya later then!