Valar Guild

March 13, 2005 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT -5)

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
IRC:, join channel #valarguild Public Chat Valar
Sigma Chat: click on  Type in your guild name as user name.
Say a greeting when you enter on any of these platforms so we'll know you're there!
Back to News
Transcript team: Ar-Pharazon, Menelvagor (timed parts), Varda

Attending: (14):
    aranfinwe, ArPharazonV, Arwen V1, Eonwe Valar, FINARFIN010, Gelmir-V/Shaggyjoe (after-meeting), GilraenV, GwaihirValar, Huan-Valar/LiberalHound, FarmerMaggot-V/Musics4Me2, Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V, Ulmo-Valar/HeruRasa, VardaValar1 (presiding)

Meeting Begins
    Ar-Pharazon's progress on his re-read of all his Tolkien books.
    Gwaihir's new job and times
    Menelvagor's birthday is next week, March 22, will be 24.
    How long will the Valar Guild last? Question was put outside by outsider, group commented.
    Sigma Chat: more discussion on possibly moving the chat there. Fewer viruses, ban available, easier for the admin. Discussion ran across the Before meeitng into the beginning of the meeting.
       Ulmo located a Horde group called Lords of Akallabeth and is trying to make contact with his Atalante character. Wondering if more than the leader know any Tolkien.
       Gwaihir's tip/reminder how to find all members of any guild online while you are.
        Last Friday's guild group gaming
    Diablo 1:
       Ironman - how to play, earlier gaming
       V&K Middle-earth mods
    Hellfire (D1 expansion)
    WarCraft 2
    Middle-earth Online
    Forum role-play
    Gaming get-togethers. After Tolkien, we broke into Diablo 1 and WoW.
Tolkien Chat:
    Eonwe Valar: Did Morgoth have ulterior motives for his targetting of Fëanor and his family?
    Tangents: Why Eru made the Ainur; nature of time.
    Using AIM to help us get set up in Diablo 1. Not all could enter bnet or host games for everybody.
        Gelmir tried to find his CD, Ulmo and Ar-Pharazon could not connect to Bnet, hanging up on the loading. Farmer Maggot installed, connected, but had to host because he could not enter. Finarfin and Varda (still had old install) had no problems.
       Menelvagor emailed his try at D1:
Concerning Diablo 1, I tried to get in, but for some odd reason wouldn't respond, so I couldn't join.
When trying to reinstall, I had a weird error, which I couldn't determine, since it didn't seem to have any effect on the game itself.
       Pharazon suggested a game of WarCraft 2 for those who could not enter Diablo 1. Plans Morrowind tomorrow.
       Ulmo joined other members such as Annatar (Sauron-Valar) already playing in WoW.

(Ar-Pharazon's Transcript, timed are Menelvagor's):
You have just entered room "Valar Guild Meetingplace."
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
VardaValar1 (16:56:35): Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
GilraenV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
GilraenV: aiya folks
aranfinwe has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya :-)
GwaihirValar: hullo!
LiberalHound has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
aranfinwe: Aiyas
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Arwen V1: Aiya
HeruRasa has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
HeruRasa: aiya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya Ulmo
The SirG3 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: It's that time, folks :-)
VardaValar1: Always good to see you
Musics4Me2 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
GwaihirValar: I have a new job... next few weeks I'm gone from 2PM to 12-1AM from Monday to Friday.... after that, I dunno what my schedule'll be like
VardaValar1: Congrats :-)
GwaihirValar: thanks :-)
VardaValar1: Would anyone else like to try the Sigma Chat?
HeruRasa: I have already done it, but unless we are going to move I see no point in going there
Musics4Me2: Varda (SigmaChat): Alatar offered to pay for it for us if we showed interest. This is getting circular :-)
VardaValar1: ok, I'm in both now for the roll. Farmer, is it open to Bnet and IRC also?
HeruRasa: Tis a most gracious offer, and I will move to it if that is our decision
VardaValar1: He won't if we don't use it, so that is why it is circular. I'm not pushing one way or another : )
VardaValar1: Let's start, and please whisper me if you have news so we can be sure to include you.
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): still not sure what I like best, though... each has its advantages and disadvantages, as far as i can see
VardaValar1: We want no one to be left out.
HeruRasa: do people have trouble using either?
VardaValar1: The Sigma is supposed to let far fewer viruses through and be easier for admin
VardaValar1: Sigma is very fast to get into. Just click and you are in
VardaValar1: I don't have to invite so many people
VardaValar1: Probably the admin is the only who will care unless we need to ban
HeruRasa: can we keep people out?
VardaValar1: In the paid one, yes
HeruRasa: how hard is it to get the guild to move there?

VardaValar1: Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo
VardaValar1: I see two of us in there : )
VardaValar1: All people have to do is click the link
HeruRasa: not what I asked :-)
VardaValar1: It would be the same way
VardaValar1: I would guess nearly impossible ;-)
HeruRasa: Will people know we have mopved? Will members have trouble accessing it? Is there any hardware requirement?
VardaValar1: We lose about half the people every time we change
ArPharazonV: just a few mentions in the news, forum, and in meetings should be enough to warn the more active people if we decide to move to sigmachat
VardaValar1: We have a bridge. No one has to move
ArPharazonV: aye, the bridge could be used
VardaValar1: It should be, but it does not happen
ArPharazonV: to retain this as a back-up
VardaValar1: The bridge is already being used and can still be used for the paid version
ArPharazonV: yup
HeruRasa: OK, where is the link?
ArPharazonV: main meeting in sigmachat, and an alternative here with bridge
VardaValar1: We are currently simultaneously on AIM, Sigma Chat, IRC, and
ArPharazonV: basically the opposite of what we have now
VardaValar1: On the News
ArPharazonV: if you want to know it now
VardaValar1: I am in both places so it does not make any difference to me.
ArPharazonV: same
VardaValar1: It is listed on each meeting
GwaihirValar: I would prefer not to have to open another window/RAM-hog... I usually have tons of stuff running hehe.... and since I always have AIM on, I for one would not be migrating
VardaValar1: If we went to it as a group, it could also go on the page
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Eonwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: Heya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
GwaihirValar: heya Eo
Eonwe Valar: Wie geht's?
ArPharazonV: gutt
VardaValar1: Gut danke
VardaValar1: Und die?
ArPharazonV: gut or gutt?
Menelvagor Valar: gut
ArPharazonV: ok
Eonwe Valar: gut
FarmerMaggotV: Hm, glanced at the window and I'd like to add something about the above ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: and sie, or Sie, instead of die :-)
VardaValar1: Go ahead
ArPharazonV: gotta tell that to Fladrif... he always says gutt
Eonwe Valar: und du :}
Eonwe Valar: if you're using informal you :}
FarmerMaggotV: Sigmachat's protocol remains simple -- for now, since it isn't open (or documented), it could change at any momeny
VardaValar1: thanks
HeruRasa has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: and du, indead Eonwe :-)
ArPharazonV: indeed :-D
VardaValar1: Anyway, AIM and Sigma can be open at the same time on my comp with no stress
FarmerMaggotV: so, no gaurantees on how long the bridge will continue to be able to work with it (I'm hoping a long while.... but still)
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): ok, gonna be just here then
Eonwe Valar: I am not indead or undead :}
ArPharazonV: how about ondead?
Musics4Me2: Varda (SigmaChat): Giving it a try, Ulmo? :-)

VardaValar1: Member News:
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): it seems to lag a ton
Eonwe Valar: no, nor am I underdead or overdead, around dead, or of dead :}
ArPharazonV: and dead?
ArPharazonV: and and dead?
VardaValar1: We've had three emails asking for a test this week, and I see none of them here where I sent them. heh
ArPharazonV: how about ant-dead?
ArPharazonV: nvm
Menelvagor Valar: indeed, Eonwe*
ArPharazonV: go ahead
VardaValar1: Any other member news from you undead or living folk?
VardaValar1: If not...
ArPharazonV: hmm.... I referenced somebody to the valarguild site
ArPharazonV: might be one of the three
Eonwe Valar: I'm on Spring break, so there's a good chance you'll see me on WoW during the week :}
VardaValar1: Oh good, for both of you : )
VardaValar1: Sauron is currently on it
VardaValar1: One of the family usually is, so feel free to look us up for a game : )
VardaValar1: Elatan was just playing in Blackfathom Deep with me, but had to go to bed
ArPharazonV: 24 hours a day? must be quite a strain on your pc
ArPharazonV: if strain is the correct spelling
VardaValar1: Sends regards
FarmerMaggotV: i before a
FarmerMaggotV: or not, nm :-P
VardaValar1: We have weird schedules
VardaValar1: "Strain" is correct
ArPharazonV: ok, good
VardaValar1: Any further member news?
Menelvagor Valar: I may or may not be there next week, depending on how my bday party is going :-)
VardaValar1: When is your birthday?
Menelvagor Valar: march 22nd
VardaValar1: Cool! Is it ok to ask how old you will be?
Menelvagor Valar: 24
VardaValar1: Nice age : )
Orodreth V has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: aye :-)
VardaValar1: Aiya Orodreth : )

VardaValar1: Web News:
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: I have been behind on web news trying to get real life work done, but have been trying to scattershot everything
VardaValar1: I hope to get more in this coming week
VardaValar1: Did any of you manage to do any webwork this week?
VardaValar1: So we did a grand total of good intentions this week and hope to do better next week : )
VardaValar1: We did have Forum posts however
VardaValar1: Ulmo found an interesting name on a Horde group. Ulmo, would you like to tell about it just for grins?
VardaValar1: Ulmo, hey! Are you playing WoW? : )
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): sure
VardaValar1: lag, ah
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): this Sigma chat is lagged a ton
VardaValar1: Not for me. Sorry to hear that
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): gotta try....
ArPharazonV: nope, no lag
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): anyway, I ran into some Horde who belonG TO A GuiLD Called "The Lost Souls of Akallabeth
ArPharazonV: hmm.... promising name :-D
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): as I cant talk to them; I made a Horde toon Atalante
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): I hope to catch up with them soon
GwaihirValar: Just so you know, you can do a /who for a guild name to find all members of that guild currently online
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): Atalante is Quenya for Akallabeth :-)
ArPharazonV: 'The Downfallen'
GwaihirValar: aye
ArPharazonV: from 'talan', fall
ArPharazonV: or to fall
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): aye
ArPharazonV: I know my Numenor-stuff ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Good to be a specialist :}
ArPharazonV: btw, small side-note, finished Aldarion and Erendis yesterday, started reading the Line of Elros tomorrow... my re-read is progressing steadily
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): I don't think they are really a Tolkien greoup, prolly just the founder is, but it may prove interesting at least
ArPharazonV: *today, instead of tomorrow
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): I have posted a lonk to their page in our WoW forum
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): link too
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): anyway, that is all I have on it now
VardaValar1: Thank you, Heru Rasa
VardaValar1: I collected a list to email to Menelvagor of current guild names, hope to type and send this week

VardaValar1: Gaming News:
VardaValar1: WoW:
VardaValar1: The Friday gaming get-together went well
VardaValar1: We started off with a lowbie group of 13 to I think 18?
Menelvagor Valar: Thanks Varda, will help a ton! :-)
VardaValar1: Then switched to a mid-level group, around 33 to 49 and did a lot of quests
VardaValar1: then split into a low and mid group
VardaValar1: Then I had to leave while it kept going and going : )
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): *harp* *harp*
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): hehe
ArPharazonV: I wonder what it was I heard..
ArPharazonV: *wondered
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): man, you are lagging
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): me too, a little, now
VardaValar1: We had a person asking if we still play Diablo 1
VardaValar1: Some of still do, I think? Any here?
ArPharazonV: I think Diablo 1 bnet was terminated
ArPharazonV: well, I couldn't access it last time I checked
ArPharazonV: which was basically the first time I checked as well
VardaValar1: This guy was still playing
Eonwe Valar: Last we heard it was cornered into its own area
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: couldn't interact with the rest of the bnet games or almost couldn't.
ArPharazonV: hmm... perhaps I should try it again some time
ArPharazonV: btw, anyone still playing Warcraft 2? on bnet?
GwaihirValar: you are restricted from any private, clan, or operated channels....
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): if we ever want to try 3 man iron man game I would play again, otherwise not interested any more ;-)
VardaValar1: We used a style of Valar name on the end of the made channel
VardaValar1: That sounds fun : )
VardaValar1: We might try that, Ulmo
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): *bleep*
VardaValar1: Quest for 3 or 4 is usually good, starts at Level 1 so we all are even.
VardaValar1: and it only takes an hour
ArPharazonV: perhaps we should try it, I'm quite the newb at Diablo, but with your help it should go fine
ArPharazonV: get me a new char started etc
VardaValar1: Quest is a great way to start a new character
VardaValar1: We had problems with latency between computers before, but we could see how we do
Menelvagor Valar: which reminds me, Ulmo, do you still have those mega-chars you used to have back in the days?
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): Ironman is where 3 different toons start a new char and play non-stop in the same game till they cant go any further
ArPharazonV: aye, we should... but not today, of course, have to go to bed immediately after the meeting :-(
VardaValar1: I might have my 50 on a floppy still
VardaValar1: It is something to plan for - not do this second : )
ArPharazonV: aye, sounds good
ArPharazonV: I've been wanting to try it
VardaValar1: Iron Man takes around 5 hours?
VardaValar1: That will take some planning
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): Aule, Sam and I killed Diablo in about 6 hours once
ArPharazonV: 5 hours? non-stop? phew... that leaves very few openings...
VardaValar1: The mega-players : )
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): we were told it couldn't be done, so we had to do it :-)
VardaValar1: Of course : )
ArPharazonV: hmm.... five hours of continuous play... thursday night would probably be best for that, perhaps tuesday night for me
VardaValar1: They told me people did not make legit 50 warriors, so I had to do that
ArPharazonV: but anyway, we have a forum for the planning.. we'll see
VardaValar1: Good reminder : )
ArPharazonV: what classes are best for something like this?
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): we required 1 each
VardaValar1: Not warrior
GwaihirValar: rogue was the strongest overall class in D1...
VardaValar1: You asked for best. ;-)
ArPharazonV: how many classes does D1 have, btw?
Menelvagor Valar: 3
GwaihirValar: 3
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): 3
Menelvagor Valar: mage, warrior, rogue
GwaihirValar: rogue, warrior, mage
ArPharazonV: ah, the basic :-)
Menelvagor Valar: mage is pretty good as well btw
ArPharazonV: just like in Morrowind, all centering around those three
VardaValar1: Aule made a real killer mage : )
GwaihirValar: warrior was pure melee, was tough to give many spells to, mage was pure spells, tough to give melee to... rogue was am eld, specialized at firing at range, capable of melee, but also good at spells....
Menelvagor Valar: but only later on in the game, rogue is undoubtedbly the best overall class of d1
LiberalHound has left the room.
ArPharazonV: combat, magic, stealth...
ArPharazonV: I'll think I'll try everything at least once
GwaihirValar: rogues became gods late-level in d1... in d1s prime, I'd say the population was about 60+% rogues
VardaValar1: Ok, so we should try to use our D1 guys and get back in practice : )
VardaValar1: Any further Gaming News?
FarmerMaggotV: I have an offtopic question, has anyone here ever played the 3rd party expansion (Hellfire or something) for D1?
VardaValar1: Hellfire had no online version, but yes
ArPharazonV: heard of it, but couldn't find it
VardaValar1: The additions did not seem to fit the rest of the game
FarmerMaggotV: ah
Eonwe Valar: I've played it, like the Monk, wish it would've been on bnet so V&K could've made the ME mod for it.
VardaValar1: That is gaming and D1 expansion, so it was on topic
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe : )
VardaValar1: They got caught on WoW like the rest of us, but are in Germany
Eonwe Valar: Monk was a mage-warrior :}
Menelvagor Valar: I remember V&K's ME mod :-)
VardaValar1: If Blizzard ever gets Europe able to be in the US, we may have a lot of old friends getting together : )
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): V&K mods kept D1 alive well past it's time
VardaValar1: Oh, we had a comment (question) about how long the guild might last
VardaValar1: Hmm, that is true, Ulmo!
Menelvagor Valar: indefinitely!
VardaValar1: As long as my family is around : )
VardaValar1: That is 5-7 at least
FarmerMaggotV: 8 ..... but sideways......
ArPharazonV: as long as the values within Tolkien's work are still appreciated by part of the world
ArPharazonV: and people still like to game :-)
VardaValar1: The Tolkien Encyclopedia has endless room : ) We take more than one or six articles on any one subject
VardaValar1: We could use original art too
VardaValar1: ok - enough of my plugging the Encyc ;-)
ArPharazonV: let's hope the guild outlasts our very lives...
VardaValar1: Any further gaming news?
ArPharazonV: not meaning by that that we have to die early, of course...
VardaValar1: Keep bringing in new people, and it will
VardaValar1: Still looking at the upcoming MeO. Middle-earth Online. No hurries on that
VardaValar1: Forum rp still alive
ArPharazonV: aye
ArPharazonV: thought you were gonna edit your post?
VardaValar1: I did some. Made sure our Avar was mentioned
ArPharazonV: ah, have to check it out
VardaValar1: Skipped doing the captain names in case members want to join with their own names
VardaValar1: Did that a while back
ArPharazonV: hadn't seen it yet... for some reason I thought you hadn't edited it yet
VardaValar1: You have to look to see : )
Menelvagor Valar: I still have to get my post in, has taken a while, but been rather busy last past weeks :-)
VardaValar1: If any want to get together in WoW after the meeting, or other gaming, this is a good place to pick suits. D1 even : )
ArPharazonV: I thought I had checked it recently... oh well
VardaValar1: Any Tolkien topics?
VardaValar1: Any other business before we change the order of the meeting?
VardaValar1: It was a small addition, not a change
ArPharazonV: I know, probably just missed it
HeruRasa has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: now I see it for the first time ;-)
VardaValar1: If there is no further business, we are changing from the business meeting to Tolkien chat.
FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Is AIM better for your lag, Heru Rasa?

VardaValar1: Tolkien:
VardaValar1: Eonwe, your floor.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
VardaValar1: (Right on the hour. Nice!)
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): AIM isn't better, but can send PMs to those not in Sigma :-)
VardaValar1: True, Ulmo
FarmerMaggotV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
Eonwe Valar: Did Morgoth have ulterior motives for his targetting of Fëanor and his family? We know he hated Fëeanor and the Noldor and desired their gems, most of all the Silmarilli, but is there more than simple hatred that would cause
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth to so guilefully drive a wedge between the royal families?
VardaValar1: He wanted to strike at the Valar and this was a way.
VardaValar1: Break up the peace of Valinor
ArPharazonV: hmm.... not sure what it would be, that made him specifically target the house of Finwe
ArPharazonV: perhaps he saw the weakness caused by Finwe's remarriage
ArPharazonV: perhaps he met Miriel in Mandos, and they had an argument ;-)
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): He used deception to taint and corrupt as his primary tools, that was just another of them
VardaValar1: It was a large and highly connected family. Drive a wedge in there and it hit a lot of places at once.
VardaValar1: In high places, at that
ArPharazonV: interesting how we know so little about the other families... perhaps they were just as large and highly connected
VardaValar1: The Vanyar were nearly incorruptible, it seemed
ArPharazonV: all we know about the Vanyar is Ingwe and his sister
VardaValar1: True. So much we don't know
VardaValar1: Maybe Morgoth tried with them too, but we only heard where it worked
Eonwe Valar: Well, Fëanor and his brothers already had issues, but had they not believed Morgoth's lies, do you think they would've been so vulnerable?
VardaValar1: They caused the lies to become at least partly true
VardaValar1: They would not have been vulnerable if they had not believed him at least somewhat
ArPharazonV: not sure... the Noldor's interests would probably be the biggest weak point of them all
Eonwe Valar: Fëanor trusted Morgoth least of all, and even he was swayed by Morgoth.
ArPharazonV: the craft of making and what comes of them, both as product and in pride
VardaValar1: The crafting of "things" leads to a weak point
Eonwe Valar: it didn't for Aulë
VardaValar1: True, just that it can lead there
ArPharazonV: and it led there with the Noldor
VardaValar1: It's outside of one's "self" and so it is easier to strike at if one hangs on to it, which Aule did not
VardaValar1: Aule loved to make, but did not hoard
Eonwe Valar: neither did the Noldor at first
VardaValar1: At first, aye. Melkor was also a crafter and at first was not evil
ArPharazonV: did that start with Feanor?
ArPharazonV: did Melkor not become evil because of his search for the Secret Fire?
VardaValar1: The build up of pride among the Noldor was a problem
ArPharazonV: aye, pride that again came from their craft
VardaValar1: The reason Melkor searched for the secret fire was already leaning towards evil
VardaValar1: Melkor was the greatest Vala, but Eru could do what he could not. So he refused to believe the Secret Fire was within Eru but was acquirable by seaching.
ArPharazonV: Melkor had a share in all the powers of the others.... pride started it
VardaValar1: We have to watch out for the word "pride". Hubris is what we really want to say.
Eonwe Valar: Ah, but was that share in their powers from the beginning or as a result of the Music?
VardaValar1: Melkor seems to have been created as having a share in all, apparently so they would have a common point to keep the music together
VardaValar1: He was supposed to bring it together, not disrupt it
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): all classic Greek Tragedy starts with Hubris :-)
ArPharazonV: Hubris?
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): cept I don't think Melkor felt any catharsis later on
VardaValar1: Aye, Ulmo : )
ArPharazonV: what is Hubris?
VardaValar1: Melkor's story is still going, not finished until the Last Battle
Eonwe Valar: Excessive pride
ArPharazonV: Arrogance?
Menelvagor Valar: I think Melkor had more to do with Jealousy than pride
ArPharazonV: or is that the consequence of Hubris?
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): a sense that one has powers greater than they actually do, to the point of being God-like,
VardaValar1: Exaggerated pride
VardaValar1: Yes, jealousy is a consequence of hubris. How dare anyone show that they are greater?
ArPharazonV: is jealousy exactly the same as envy?
VardaValar1: Synonym
VardaValar1: Yes
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): in classic Greek it implied a challenge to the Gods by being way to presumptuous, but the word has many other forms of meaning s
VardaValar1: Aye, Ulmo
ArPharazonV: if you see someone who has more, you want that yourself....
VardaValar1: The gods felt it was a sign of excessive pride in humans and needed to be taken down
ArPharazonV: and the more you have yourself, the stronger that feeling
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): that would be more like envy, hubris would be claiming you had it
VardaValar1: The gods had their own form of it, could not stand a human to be challengingly beautiful or capable
ArPharazonV: Akallabeth, anybody? ;-)
ArPharazonV: though that was also a bit more about threats to Valinor
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): lol, aye Ar
ArPharazonV: so Melkor claimed he was as powerful as Eru
VardaValar1: One of the pleasant things about the Sil, was the Valar and Eru were pretty decent folk
ArPharazonV: and that's why he believed Eru did not have the Fire?
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): at least more powerful than he was
VardaValar1: Melkor wanted to be more powerful than anyone, including Eru, or certainly at least equal
ArPharazonV: and that's why he went looking for the Fire, to outperform Eru?
VardaValar1: Melkor seemed to think Eru had the fire stashed somewhere or there was more of it
Menelvagor Valar: more like to prove he was as powerful as Eru
Menelvagor Valar: he forgot however that the flame was in Eru's creation, and thus in himself already
ArPharazonV: and because he ventured out deep into the Void, Evil grew more in his mind....
VardaValar1: Once Melkor could prove he could do anything Eru could, he would probably have tried to outperform
ArPharazonV: was the flame in Eru's creation?
ArPharazonV: that's interesting... what came first... Eru, or the Fire?
VardaValar1: Melkor by hunting away from the others separated himself
ArPharazonV: the chicken or the egg?
VardaValar1: Eru was always. The Fire is part of Eru.
VardaValar1: This is Tolkien, so don't flame me : )
ArPharazonV: :-)
ArPharazonV: just wondering what that would mean, he was 'always'
VardaValar1: It's like a sphere having no beginning point
GilraenV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: at what point did he decide to create the Valar then? what triggered that first in his mind?
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): uh oh, now we are getting into religious terms :-)
VardaValar1: Let's see what it says in Tolkien
VardaValar1: Look it up
VardaValar1: If he does not say, we cannot answer
ArPharazonV: in the beginning there was Eru, and he was bored... well, something like that ;-)
Eonwe Valar: He made a choice and carried out his decision :}
ArPharazonV: why did he make a choice? what made him make the choice?
VardaValar1: Since he is outside of time, one cannot say when he did it : )
ArPharazonV: he is outside of time...
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): why did God create man? (I don;t think we were meant to go there)
ArPharazonV: well, that forces whole new perspectives
VardaValar1: He would make his choice himself as nothing is there to make him choose
ArPharazonV: right
ArPharazonV: but how did his mind work?
VardaValar1: here it is
ArPharazonV: how did his mind come to the decision at that point? what triggered it?
ArPharazonV: some inner factor, yes
ArPharazonV: but what?
VardaValar1: It is the first Sil paragraph
GwaihirValar: Ulmo... I am of the opposite belief... that man created god in his own image... so... however, Eru did it because he wanted to... probably because he wanted someone to share his lack of time with....
FINARFIN010 has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Fin
Eonwe Valar: There was no "point." Eternity isn't like linear time.
Menelvagor Valar: there are many of such detailed questions to be asked in Tolkien's works, rarely, any of them are answered
VardaValar1: This is the Sil quote:
ArPharazonV: the same question always arises with other religions as well, Menel
VardaValar1: There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar; and he made first the Ainur,
Eonwe Valar: Let's keep it in Tolkien.
ArPharazonV: aye
VardaValar1: the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought,
VardaValar1: and they were with him before aught else was made.
VardaValar1: And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music;
VardaValar1: and they sang before him, and he was glad.
VardaValar1: End quote. "He was glad." It made him happy.
GilraenV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: if it made him happy, why did he wait until the moment he created the Ainur to create the Ainur?
ArPharazonV: why didn't he do it 'earlier'?
VardaValar1: You are thinking inside Time.
VardaValar1: Time was a set of Valar : )
FINARFIN010: time has no meaning to a God.
ArPharazonV: ...
VardaValar1: You could even call it instant if you like
FINARFIN010: varda is right
VardaValar1: As soon as it came to his mind, he could have it
FINARFIN010: a god can be in any instant.
VardaValar1: And "soon" is the wrong word
FINARFIN010: over and over again.
VardaValar1: He would be in all time at once and outside of it
FINARFIN010: rjght
ArPharazonV: that would mean, that, in terms of Time, Eru did not exist 'long before' he created the Valar
FINARFIN010: and all thought would be at the same time
GwaihirValar: the question I would ask here.... how do we know how a 'God' sees time...
VardaValar1: Eru existed in all Time and outside Time
FINARFIN010: nonsence
VardaValar1: That is how he is "always"
VardaValar1: Time is a construct
FINARFIN010: the story was told by elves. how else would they tell it
VardaValar1: heheh
ArPharazonV: since the Ainur were created along with time, or a little bit after
VardaValar1: Go Fin : )
VardaValar1: Time were Ainur
FINARFIN010: elves are stuck in time and cannot think outside of time
ArPharazonV: this is hurting my brain...
VardaValar1: Reason we have aspirin. ;-)
FINARFIN010: hey.... you have a brain.... howcome i dont have one.
ArPharazonV: I got one from my forefathers
ArPharazonV: Feanor took your share
VardaValar1: You are living in pixels : )
Eonwe Valar: My time to go has come. I must go exist elsewhere now :}
GwaihirValar: you have forefathers? I only have one!
FINARFIN010: Eonwe you are leaving?
VardaValar1: Namarie, Eonwe and thanks for a fun topic!
ArPharazonV: Namarie, Eonwe
FINARFIN010: Namaire
GwaihirValar: farewell!!
VardaValar1: Your timing, Fin, is about when we wind up : )
ArPharazonV: I have only one father, but many forefathers
FINARFIN010: yeah
VardaValar1: Finarfin, we were discussing D1 earlier
Eonwe Valar: Take care all, slee pwell, have fun, and think outside the line :}

FINARFIN010: cool
VardaValar1: Do you still have the game?
ArPharazonV: let's see...
FINARFIN010: yes
Eonwe Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: who here are my forefathers...
FINARFIN010: are we going to get togeather and play some d1?
ArPharazonV: well, is Finarfin my forefather? let's see...
VardaValar1: We were trying to pick a time for Iron Man and or Quest for however many
FINARFIN010: not I
ArPharazonV: nope, guess he isn't
VardaValar1: I'm not : )
FarmerMaggotV: O
ArPharazonV: Menel isn't my forefather... he used to be as Turgon, but not anymore
FINARFIN010: i would love to play d1
FarmerMaggotV: I'd like to get together and play D1 :-)
ArPharazonV: not Varda, Gwaihir....
ArPharazonV: who is aranfinwe again?
VardaValar1: Aran means "king"
VardaValar1: Does that help? ;-)
ArPharazonV: :-)
ArPharazonV: Daddy!
FINARFIN010: not me
VardaValar1: We were just talking about him
VardaValar1: King Finwe
FINARFIN010: ahhh
HeruRasa: I don't have D1 installed, but if we want to schedule some Iron-man or whatever for next week or so I will install it again
FINARFIN010: i remember him
ArPharazonV: great-great-great-great-etc daddy!
FINARFIN010: nice guy
VardaValar1: Not everyone has to wait. I'm trying to pull up D1 now
FINARFIN010: hehe
FarmerMaggotV: I'm hoping it'll be able to patch it when I connect to BNet
ArPharazonV: well, I'm out then... unless I can convince my parents to give me another half hour after the meeting ends....
ArPharazonV: meh, I guess that's it... just one fore-father here
FINARFIN010: well one in four is not bad
ArPharazonV: one in four?
FINARFIN010: one in fore fathers
FINARFIN010: bad pun.
FarmerMaggotV: o-O, weird -- you can't get to Public Chat channels from D1
FINARFIN010: forgive me
VardaValar1: Aiya
VardaValar1: I am in channel Diablo Valar
ArPharazonV: ah heck, lemme try it
VardaValar1: I love puns : )
VardaValar1: How about tomorrow, Phar?
ArPharazonV: gonna see if I still have it installed now
VardaValar1: Fast install : )
FarmerMaggotV: yep
Shaggyjoe has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Gelmir : )
Shaggyjoe: hey hey
VardaValar1: Some of us are going into Diablo 1 in channel Diablo Valar
Shaggyjoe: just got off work
VardaValar1: Congrats! Get comfy : )
Shaggyjoe: bah! i cant find my cd!!
VardaValar1: Look around a little more : )
Shaggyjoe: lemme look for it
ArPharazonV: searching for the fastest server...
ArPharazonV: have a feeling it could take a while
GwaihirValar: I don't know where my D1 is lol
ArPharazonV: I jsut select bnet, right?
ArPharazonV: and go on from there?
FINARFIN010: i cannot get into Valar channel
HeruRasa has left the room.
FINARFIN010: but i have d1 up and running
ArPharazonV: can't seem to be able to connect to bnet
ArPharazonV: keeps searching for the fastest server
ArPharazonV: nope, can't connect
ArPharazonV: well, guess that's it for me then...
Menelvagor Valar: got the same for starcraft a while back
ArPharazonV: back to war3 and Morrowind, until I can get WoW
VardaValar1: Three of us in Diablo Valar at level one now
VardaValar1: Anyone else?
VardaValar1: We have Elder Scrolls 3
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: I've never played it. Is that the Morrowind you mean?
ArPharazonV: yeah
VardaValar1: cool
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): I cant get onto BNet
ArPharazonV: that's the one
ArPharazonV: just single player though
VardaValar1: Ulmo, maybe you have too much open?
ArPharazonV: can't get to bnet either
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): I have almost nothing open
VardaValar1: That's two who can't get to Bnet, 3 who made it in
VardaValar1: Mine was already installed
FarmerMaggotV: I just installed
VardaValar1: Ulmo, did you just install?
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): yes
ArPharazonV: mine already was installed
VardaValar1: I'll ask the others
VardaValar1: That's one : )
FINARFIN010: ask what
VardaValar1: Did the guys who made it to bnet already have D1 installed?
FarmerMaggotV: not me
VardaValar1: Mine was already installed
FINARFIN010: yup
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): Varda, you had it already installed is why you got on?
VardaValar1: Farmer is in but had to install, so that is not it
FINARFIN010: it had to be installed to install all the other diablo games
ArPharazonV: could it have something to do with the fact that I live in Europe?
ArPharazonV: it kept searching for the fastest server
VardaValar1: Ulmo is in the US
GwaihirValar: no it doesn't.... D1 and D2 are independent games...
VardaValar1: Right, Gwaihir
FarmerMaggotV: doubtful, it's probably because D1 is so old and blizzard hasn't touched it in a while
FarmerMaggotV: that's my hunch ;-)
VardaValar1: Ulmo is having the same problem, Phar
FINARFIN010: probly
ArPharazonV: then what was up with the searching for the fastest server? did any of you get that?
VardaValar1: It usually does that
VardaValar1: But it found one
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): I got stuck there
FarmerMaggotV: I didn't really see that, it was fast
ArPharazonV: me too, Ulmo
VardaValar1: Anyone else trying Diablo One?
VardaValar1: We have three so far
aranfinwe: namarie all
FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: Namarie
aranfinwe has left the room.
ArPharazonV: well, guess it's time to put diablo 1 back in the closet....
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): I cant install any of the internet options
GwaihirValar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: internet options?
ArPharazonV: lemme check
VardaValar1: this is a test run to check for what we need to do, solve problems
ArPharazonV: how does this work?
ArPharazonV: internet options?
ArPharazonV: what do I have to install?
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): no idea
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): for me it doesnt work :-(
VardaValar1: May figure it out - maybe not right this second
ArPharazonV: hmmm....
ArPharazonV: they just seem to install browsers or something
ArPharazonV: oh well, was fun while it lasted
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): I give up
ArPharazonV: anyone up for a game of War2 bnet?
HeruRasa has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: woohoo, just found out I passed my Bronzeage-test
VardaValar1: Farmer is having problems joining the game
VardaValar1: He is playing with ports
VardaValar1: Finarfin and I are in just fine
VardaValar1: Go figure
VardaValar1: Bronze-Age test in school or a game?
ArPharazonV: school
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): gonna head out and play WoW, this is too frustrating now :-(
ArPharazonV: Bronze Age in the Netherlands and Western Europe
VardaValar1: Farmer says Latency stopped him from joining us
VardaValar1: Ulmo
VardaValar1: Annatar is there in WoW
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): ok
ArPharazonV: so, does anybody even play Warcraft 2 now?
Musics4Me2: Ulmo_Valar (SigmaChat): Namarie all
VardaValar1: Not while I'm playing D1 :-)
VardaValar1: Namarie Ulmo!
VardaValar1: Have fun!
ArPharazonV: Namarie
HeruRasa has left the room.
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): that leaves just me in here, I guess
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): time to close sigmachat
VardaValar1: Did I fall out of it?
VardaValar1: Don't see it
ArPharazonV: seems you did
ArPharazonV: can't tell when, though
ArPharazonV: ah
ArPharazonV: you left just before the 'fore fathers' remark
VardaValar1: ahh, thanks
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): anyway, I'm out of Sigmachat for today
VardaValar1: Okies
ArPharazonV: and that was that
ArPharazonV: tomorrow I'll go play a bit of Morrowind again.... going to plunder the island of Tel Branora :-)
VardaValar1: Namarie and post to rp ;-)
VardaValar1 (19:04:09): Have fun!
ArPharazonV: post to rp, eh?
ArPharazonV: I might
VardaValar1: When you can : )
ArPharazonV: at this point, though, I daresay I have even less to talk about than last time
ArPharazonV: or I know of less to talk about
VardaValar1: I can run us on
ArPharazonV: perhaps I can skip on a few days
VardaValar1: We can start traveling
ArPharazonV: until the day of departure
VardaValar1: We will be heading towards Erebor in the morning
ArPharazonV: or conveying (sp?) with my family about Calaron and Helvy or something
VardaValar1: You are in the room with all of us at the moment
ArPharazonV: conferring
ArPharazonV: that's the word
VardaValar1: Thranduil is stating :-)
ArPharazonV: we leave in the morning, right?
ArPharazonV: hmm...
ArPharazonV: what is Thranduil stating that you refer to?
VardaValar1: He said where we are going. I'm going to game now
VardaValar1: Namarie
ArPharazonV: ok, Namarie
ArPharazonV: will send transcript
VardaValar1: Thanks :-)