March 6, 2005 Meeting
5pm EST (GMT -5)
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Valar Guild Meetingplace
join channel #valarguild
Public Chat Valar
: click on http://client0.sigmachat.com/sc.pl?id=90005
Type in your guild name as user name.
Say a greeting when you enter on any of these platforms so we'll know
Transcript team: Ar-Pharazon, Menelvagor (times), Varda
ArPharazonV, Arwen V1, Caranthir-V/MoriFinwe, ElladanV, Eonwe Valar
(presiding), FINARFIN010, Finwe-V/aranfinwe,
FladrifV, Gil-galad-V/Xseanzee disco,
GilraenV, GwaihirValar, Huan-Valar/LiberalHound,
FarmerMaggot/Musics4Me2/Bridge, Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V, Ulmo-Valar/HeruRasa, VardaValar1
Arathorn - computer
problems, many disconnects, problem getting funds for repairs.
Gwaihir - his dad's birthday
Italian fan site
WoW section: new board for Questing.
Discussion topic: should we have
passwords anywhere on the Forum?
Under new management by
new personal page
Guild Questing Friday 5pm EST on Lothar server, Alliance.
the descendants of the Caliquendi Noldor, for example Elrond, count as
Calaquendi, or are they by default Dark Elves?
You have just entered room "Valar Guild Meetingplace."
Orodreth V has entered the room.
Orodreth V: I'll be plain lp
Orodreth V: playing
Orodreth V: so
Orodreth V: let everyone know
ArPharazonV: I'm playing too
Musics4Me2 has entered the room.
Orodreth V: you play lp too?
Orodreth V: Laxius Power
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Orodreth V: o yea
GilraenV has entered the room.
FladrifV has entered the room.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
Orodreth V (16:42:57): afk for the next 150 hours or so >.>
Menelvagor Valar: it's a little early, but I guess I could do the
invitations already :-)
ArPharazonV: ok, back
ArPharazonV: too many members now to stay playing ;-)
ArPharazonV: so.... Aiya Menel, Gilraen, Fladrif, Gwaihir and Arwen
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): Aiya :D
GilraenV: iya all
ArPharazonV: played any fun games this week, anybody?
Arwen V1: I played chase the math book around the desk
Arwen V1: but that one isnt any fun =P
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: hey
FladrifV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Everyone's so quiet this pre-meeting :}
ArPharazonV: have you got anything to talk about?
Eonwe Valar: Chocolate :}
ArPharazonV: meh, don't like chocolate...
GwaihirValar: What?!?! Blasphemer!
Eonwe Valar: There you go, a conversation forms already :}
ArPharazonV: don't like how it tastes, how it looks, how it smells...
but hey, it'd be a boring world if we were all the same
Eonwe Valar: We'll give it a couple more minutes while I gather news
tidbits, then we'll begin.
(Varda's transcript, timed spots are
You have just entered room "Valar Guild Meetingplace."
Eonwe Valar (17:12:10): Welcome :}
VardaValar1: Sorry, rl - feeding people
Eonwe Valar: np :}
VardaValar1: back now
Eonwe Valar: Taking roll now, then we'll begin.
Eonwe Valar: Anybody on through Sigmachat or any other medium, say heya
now and be counted.
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's begin.
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): Aiya :-)
ArPharazonV: sorry bout that
Eonwe Valar: Elen
Sila Lumenn Omentielvo.
Musics4Me2: Varda (SigmaChat): Now in Sigma Chat. No others present
Musics4Me2: Varda (SigmaChat): except Phar :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Membership: Any membership
VardaValar1: Arathorn says hi
VardaValar1: Fangorn, Eowyn, Sauron, Bilbo say hi
Menelvagor Valar: hi back :-)
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news?
VardaValar1: Arathorn is having a lot of
VardaValar1: Some sound suspiciously like my old router :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: Repair funds not currently available
VardaValar1: That's all my Membership news
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.
Eonwe Valar: On to Web news:
Eonwe Valar: New Link:
Eonwe Valar: Il Signore degli aneli Edoras - Italian fan site. Images,
articles on the Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion, chat. by Thengel
Eonwe Valar: Found in the Fan Sites section of the Links Page
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Varda.
Eonwe Valar: Forum:
aranfinwe has entered the room.
VardaValar1: Aiya Finwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: As you know, we have a new Hunts board for the WoW section.
Eonwe Valar: Currently, it's password
Eonwe Valar: Elatan brought up and discussed that this may be causing
problems with members' ability to read it, namely they don't know the
password. Your thoughts?
VardaValar1: If you don't remember the password, email me, just as you
did for gaming
Menelvagor Valar: my thoughts are that they should know
GwaihirValar: its my dad's birthday celebration... so
I've gotta go do something then have dinner....
VardaValar1: Great Gwaihir!
VardaValar1: Happy birthday to him!
HeruRasa has entered the room.
GwaihirValar: afk for a while :-)
Eonwe Valar: We were just talking about the Password on the Hunts board
for WoW. Your thoughts Ulmo?
HeruRasa: I never could think of a need for passwords
Eonwe Valar: Keeping out spam for one :}
HeruRasa: never saw any, but ok
MoriFinwe has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: The reason we have on on the Trade board. It's so members
can find and offer items without random people coming in and begging
for "leet loot"
VardaValar1: Aiya Caranthir
VardaValar1: The other question is should we wait until we see a spam
problem before using a password?
Eonwe Valar: Thoughts?
ElladanV has entered the room.
ElladanV: Aiya old ppl
HeruRasa: I would think so Varda, my bet is that we don't get any
VardaValar1: We only have had a little spam so far, but one of the
three admins usually catches it fast
VardaValar1: We do get spam
HeruRasa: can the forum be set up so that guests can only access 1
Eonwe Valar: It can be, but that doesn't stop them from registering and
doing the same thing.
MoriFinwe has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: we already have that security in place
HeruRasa: most EQ forums only lets guests access a simple chat section,
to introduce themselves
Menelvagor Valar: only a few sections are available for guests to see
and post threads
Menelvagor Valar: most sections are available for guests to see, but
HeruRasa: so who is gonna spam the WoW forums?
Menelvagor Valar: some sections are unviewable to guests
Eonwe Valar: My guess would be WoW people who somehow stumble upon us :}
LiberalHound has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: we had a registered person spamming the American Army
Menelvagor Valar: he was removed quickly after
Menelvagor Valar: and that's why we decided to leave passwords in
place, as well as add the extra security of the guest thingies
HeruRasa: now you've lost me completely
Menelvagor Valar: ok
HeruRasa: if only Valar members can even see the WoW section i dont see
how we can have any problems
Eonwe Valar: It's not only Valar members
VardaValar1: Only Valar members can see the trading section
Menelvagor Valar: because non-valar members can register at the board
Eonwe Valar: Anyone who registers for the board can post unless we put
HeruRasa: no reason for anyone but Valar to see them, just make it so
Menelvagor Valar: people registered on the forum are referred to as
Menelvagor Valar: that doesn't make them members of Valar
HeruRasa: they dont need approval?
Menelvagor Valar: no
HeruRasa: change that
Eonwe Valar: We can't
Eonwe Valar: Yet
VardaValar1: Most are fellow fans, not a problem
VardaValar1: Some join us later
Eonwe Valar: I believe it's in the owrks for verson 4 of Proboards,
Menelvagor Valar: and even if we could, we don't want that, it's a free
forum, also for outsiders to view and post in discussions and stuff
FarmerMaggotV has entered the room.
HeruRasa: gotta run, taxi time, back in a half hour
Eonwe Valar: I believe we have had a couple come fro mthe boards,..
Eonwe Valar: Any other thoughts on this?
VardaValar1: I like letting outsiders see most of the board
Eonwe Valar: Going once.
VardaValar1: Web news
Eonwe Valar: Going Twice.
VardaValar1: I need to apologize to about 3 people here :-)
FarmerMaggotV: only 3 tonight?
Eonwe Valar: GO ahead Varda :}
VardaValar1: Orodreth, your story will be going up this week
VardaValar1: Thanks a lot, Farmer ;-)
VardaValar1: Pharazon and Menelvagor, your transcript info will be
VardaValar1: That's all
FarmerMaggotV: wasn't meant to be sarcastic Varda, but it kinda looks that
ArPharazonV: no problem about the transcript
ArPharazonV: almost expecting it to be late :-D
Menelvagor Valar: shame on you too Phar!
VardaValar1: I do have a transcript up however
ArPharazonV: but seriously, I know you're busy with a lot of stuff..
not blaming you for anything
VardaValar1: Any other web news?
Eonwe Valar: Ok, Menelvagor has some web News :}
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Menelvagor.
Menelvagor Valar: ok
Menelvagor Valar: it's about the WoW page
Menelvagor Valar: Maglor has let me know that because of him playing on
another server, he feels like he shouldn't handle the page himself
Menelvagor Valar: as per earlier agreemant, I had control of the text
Menelvagor Valar: however, as I had no idea how he actually implemented
the things on his site, and the tries I made failed horribly
Menelvagor Valar: I asked him to let me take over the entire page
Menelvagor Valar: I've also asked Varda in case it could be accounted
for as a hostile take-over
Menelvagor Valar: Varda let me know it was ok :-)
Menelvagor Valar: also, because the format on Maglors page is 800x600,
making it a little hard to read sometimes
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate
Menelvagor Valar: for the last 4 hours, I have labored to get the new
page done :-)
Menelvagor Valar: and I succeeded too :-)
Menelvagor Valar: http://valarguild.org/menelvagor/wow/wowframe.html
Menelvagor Valar: there's the new link :-)
ArPharazonV: ah, the screenshot-link finally working, I see?
VardaValar1: It looks as if you have a start
Menelvagor Valar: note that it is not yet fully complete, as the image
on the top of Maglor's page as well as the link buttons are unavailable
Menelvagor Valar: I have asked him to send me those as soon as possible
VardaValar1: I can possibly help you with a few things
FarmerMaggotV: I can do some images if needed
VardaValar1: It is ok to have some fancy stuff. Doesn't have to be
VardaValar1: WoW users tend to have reasonably good comps
FarmerMaggotV: heh, 'tend'
Menelvagor Valar: well, I have a reasonable comp, and most of the
times, it takes me more than half a minute to load Maglor's page
ArPharazonV: so compromise :-)
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Menelvagor Valar: no mouse-overs as on his site, cuz I know nothing
about how to do that :-)
ArPharazonV: wait.... half a minute? wow, doesn't take that long even
on my pc
Menelvagor Valar: yep
Menelvagor Valar: but well, was running like a dozen or more windows at
the time trying to get the job done, so that may have influenced
VardaValar1: My little P166 does better than that
FarmerMaggotV: my 120MHz Power Macs do about that
Menelvagor Valar: as I said, I had a like a dozen windows open, half of
which were internet browsers, putting a big strain on my comp :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe just mentioned to me that the links on the
charter are not working (hadn't implemented them yet, haste, haste),
they will go up shortly
Menelvagor Valar: and that's about it :-)
Menelvagor Valar: or well
Menelvagor Valar: except for one thing
Menelvagor Valar: would you rather have the links separated into 2
(linkable) top frames as they are now, or add a third side frame on
which they all go?
Xseanzee disco has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Either way is fine to me.
Eonwe Valar: As long as it's legible
Menelvagor Valar: side frame won't be big, the rest will remain legible
VardaValar1: Ok, that is detail that can be worked on outside the
Menelvagor Valar: but creating this setup, I have also considered those
still on 800x600
Menelvagor Valar: aye aye Ma'am! 8-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Menelvagor.
Eonwe Valar: Farmer Maggot has a bit of web news as well.
Eonwe Valar: Your floor, Farmer.
FarmerMaggotV: Yep, I've finally gotten
around to creating a personal web site again.
FarmerMaggotV: located at http://codeshock.com/sirg3/
FarmerMaggotV: and that's all ;-)
Eonwe Valar: congrats :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Web news?
Eonwe Valar: Ok, On to Gaming News:
Eonwe Valar: WoW Weekly Questing took us to the
Deadmines on Friday. Check out the Report now up in the Hunts Section
Eonwe Valar: Again, if you don't remember the password, e-mail Varda.
Eonwe Valar: The Weekly Guild Questing reports will be posted in the
Hunts Board, and I'll try to have a thread to which all can be posted
set up before the Questing time every Friday.
Eonwe Valar: Just put your report in a reply to the thread. If you have
comments or such, use another thread or PM the reporter.
GwaihirValar: back for a sec, and I forgot
to mention this 'fore I
left... but weekdays I won't be around from about 2PM 'til 1 AM due to
work and travel times...(Central times of course)
ArPharazonV: dang, keep forgetting the password... well, going through
my mail again, it should be in there somewhere
Eonwe Valar: That way the thread only contains reports, making it
easier for everyone to read.
VardaValar1: Or ask me, Phar ;-)
ArPharazonV: neh, it'll be ok... I've got all my private mail in a
seperate folder on my old email address
ArPharazonV: just wish the darn thing had a search function...
Eonwe Valar: Any other Gaming News?
ArPharazonV: but anyway, continue
Eonwe Valar: Any Tolkien topics? Whisper now or I'll give one :}
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Varda.
VardaValar1: Elatan suggests that for a Friday game we look into
Stormgarde, mainly just poke around and see what is there ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, there
VardaValar1: We had a group of four of us today in Arathis doing
quests. Great fun
Eonwe Valar: 's discussion on where to go next week on the Hunts Board.
Another reason to go check it out :}
Eonwe Valar: Anythign else?
VardaValar1: No more gaming news from here.
Menelvagor Valar: Stromgarde has 37 elite stealthers and up
VardaValar1: ouch. I'm dead ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I tried it in there at 33 and it wasn't pretty :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, Tolkien Time :}
Menelvagor Valar: better to do Stockades, some quests there, about 6 in
total, lvl 22 elites and up
ElladanV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: There's been some discussion in the past on the MEO boards
about the Calaquendi, the Light Elves (those who saw the Light of the
Eonwe Valar: This of course includes the Noldor, who later returned to
Eonwe Valar: The question is, do the descendants of these Noldor, for
example Elrond, count as Calaquendi, or are they by default Dark Elves?
VardaValar1: And how about the center road, the Twilight Elves?
Menelvagor Valar: Elrond is counted among the Half-Elves, no title is
given for Cala or Mori for half-elves :-)
Eonwe Valar: Elrond is descended from Noldor, however.
VardaValar1: The child of a person born in Valinor is still his child,
whether or not he is in Middle-earth?
Menelvagor Valar: but also from Men
Eonwe Valar: But he was counted among the Elves.
Menelvagor Valar: but still he was given the titled "Half-Elven
Eonwe Valar: However, he is an example, and there are others out there,
namely any Noldo born in Middle-Earth.
ArPharazonV: like Gil-Galad
VardaValar1: Then the elves in Middle-earth including this half-elf
counted elf, did go to Valinor, at which point he is definitely a light
Menelvagor Valar: is Luthien counted among the Cala-Quendi?
Eonwe Valar: Luthien is not descended from a Noldo
Eonwe Valar: but you make a good point.
Menelvagor Valar: indeed, but she is a descendent from Thingol, who had
seen the Trees as well as Melian, the Maia
Eonwe Valar: But let's narrow this to the everyday Noldo born in
Middle-Earth to parents from Aman.
ArPharazonV: indeed, Thingol was of the Calaquendi
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
ArPharazonV: Gil-Galad, perhaps... Celebrimbor...
Menelvagor Valar: well, if Luthien could be counted among the
Cala-Quendi, it would certainly make it easier to count any Noldor born
in ME among them as well
Eonwe Valar: Luthien is also half Maia, so we would half to examine
that course as well if we did.
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate, I don't recall mentioning ever that
those Noldor born in ME from parents from Aman were CalaQuendi
ArPharazonV: I can't recall them being accounted among the Moriquendi
Menelvagor Valar: however, I do believe that those few mentioned in the
Silmarillion are counted among them, albeit not officially
Eonwe Valar: It also didn't say they weren't, which is why we're having
this discussion :}
ArPharazonV: I was under the impression that their children and
grandchildren were accounted as Calaquendi too, or at least as High
VardaValar1: There are three things: Light, Dark, and Twilight. But
they are definitely not called Sindar.
ArPharazonV: though the question has entered my mind as well several
ArPharazonV: yes, Varda, several :-)
VardaValar1: It does seem as if they counted it as something inherited
ArPharazonV: for example, was Celebrian of the High Elves?
Menelvagor Valar: I believe it was Men who gave the Noldor their title
ArPharazonV: if not, how come she was still allowed to go to Valinor?
or does that count for Moriquendi as well?
Menelvagor Valar: it doesn't necessarily mean they are Cala-Quendi,
although they were aftwards always considered as such
VardaValar1: If going to Valinor made them Light Elves, would that make
others who went later Light Elves?
ArPharazonV: would that make Frodo a light hobbit? ;-)
ArPharazonV: oh, wait, he went to Eressea
VardaValar1: He didn't go to stay : )
Eonwe Valar: In the top of the division there are Eldar and Avari:
those who took up the Journey and those who refused.
ArPharazonV: btw, was it even so that the returning exiles were allowed
to go to Valinor?
ArPharazonV: weren't they just allowed to go to Eressea and no further?
VardaValar1: Galadriel did go
VardaValar1: Aye Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Of the Eldar, the Noldor, Vanyar, and part of the Teleri
who reached Valinor and saw the Light of the Two Trees were called the
ArPharazonV: also, doesn't the term 'Light Elf' refer to the light of
the two Trees? Which were dead later?
Eonwe Valar: All Elves were called to Aman, not all accepted.
VardaValar1: The Refusers, the Avari, the Dark Elves
Eonwe Valar: The Silvan Elves were Eldar, having started out on the
journey, so they still had the Longing buried within them (i.e.
Eonwe Valar: To directly answer your question, Phar, the Light they
refer is indeed that of the Two Trees.
Menelvagor Valar: sidenote: the links on the charter are now operational
Eonwe Valar: I believe the part about the Exiles going no further than
Eressea is in BoLT
VardaValar1: Congrats, Menel :-)
ArPharazonV: I think I saw it in other books as well, Eonwe... but not
Eonwe Valar: So the question remains: Is the term "Calaquendi"
hereditary or specific to the generation(s) that experienced it?
ArPharazonV: perhaps there's an underlying question to that
ArPharazonV: does the term Calaquendi refer to the fact that they have
physically seen the Light, or that the Light is 'in their faces'?
ArPharazonV: in the latter case, it could surely have been hereditary
Eonwe Valar: so what do we know that could support either direction?
Menelvagor Valar: the Golden Midway, Elves of Twilight :-)
ArPharazonV: the Sindar... gotta love em
ArPharazonV: btw, the Nandor aren't considered Sindarin, right?
Eonwe Valar: No, they had their own culture and rulers.
Eonwe Valar: The Sindar acknowledged Elu Thingol as their king.
ArPharazonV: hmm... did Beren and Luthien have any
authority/power/influence over the Nandor?
ArPharazonV: they did ambush the Dwarves from Doriath with a Nandor
ArPharazonV: I know the Nandor never took a king again after the death
of Denethor, but surely Beren seems to have been a figure of power in
his 'second' life...
Eonwe Valar: Wb Ulmo: discussing the Calaquendi: was it strictly thsoe
who experienced it or are their descendants also under this title?
FINARFIN010 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: aye, sorry for drifting off
Eonwe Valar: I just did a quick rereading of that passage.
Eonwe Valar: It seems he may have had some influence, perhaps more as a
friend or the Green-Elves than a ruler-figure, as it says "many of the
Green-Elves" but not "all"
Eonwe Valar: If you take the meanign as those who are fit for war.
ArPharazonV: seemed quite odd, though, that Beren and Luthien and their
descendants should dwell on an island seemingly so central to a people
they don't even belong too....
Eonwe Valar: It was quiet and out of the way.
ArPharazonV: instead of remaining in Doriath
ArPharazonV: aye, perhaps
Menelvagor Valar: as I recall, the Ents participated in that battle as
ArPharazonV: aye, they blocked those who escaped the battle with Beren
Menelvagor Valar: which could refer to Luthien's influence over them by
heritance of Melian, as she was a Maia of Yavanna
ArPharazonV: finished off the rest of the Dwarves
ArPharazonV: hmm.... good connection
ArPharazonV: didn't figure that
Eonwe Valar: We seem to have come to a standstill with the term
Calaquendi. Is there nothing to suggest either direction?
Menelvagor Valar: and that in itself *might* that Luthien was indeed
Menelvagor Valar: if at least because she was part Maia
ArPharazonV: and part Cala-Quendi, as well :-)
ArPharazonV: Thingol saw the Trees
Menelvagor Valar: *might* prove that*
Menelvagor Valar: true, but I think the Maia in her would have the
Eonwe Valar: Well, the Maia part wouldn't play a role in a decision of
Menelvagor Valar: she was counted among the Elves tho
ArPharazonV: among the Eldar, even :-)
Eonwe Valar: Otherwise, the Kings of Numenor could be counted
Calaquendi despite they were mortal.
VardaValar1: They could not, because they are not Elves
VardaValar1: That's the Quendi part of the word
Menelvagor Valar: they are Men, and called so
ArPharazonV: they were counted among Men
ArPharazonV: because Elros chose that fate
Menelvagor Valar: Luthien is Elven, even tho she was part Maia
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but if the Maia plays a part in one, it plays a part
FINARFIN010: yeah same life span
ArPharazonV: I remember reading that unless they were directly given
another choice, anyone part mortal became mortal....
FINARFIN010: well i am off to cook some dinner ark. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: well, there is a difference between being counted
Elven and not being counted Elven
ArPharazonV: btw, what's the difference between life-spans of the Maiar
and the Quendi?
Menelvagor Valar: nothing
VardaValar1: Starting point for one
ArPharazonV: are the Maiar not bound to Ea as well?
ArPharazonV: yes, starting point....
Eonwe Valar: Maiar are truly immortal whereas the lifespan of the Elves
= that of Arda.
VardaValar1: The Maiar who came to Arda are, but not others
ArPharazonV: but that has no part in analysing Luthien, since her
starting point was obviously on Arda
Menelvagor Valar: and Tolkien did have a very strong patriarchal sense
VardaValar1: She was not Maia, just part Maia.
ArPharazonV: so when Arda truly dies, the Elves die as well, but the
Maiar and Valar live on?
Menelvagor Valar: only those who chose to stay with Eru
ArPharazonV: but those like Melian are bound to the life-span of Arda
VardaValar1: Ainur don't have real bodies to die from
VardaValar1: Elves do
Menelvagor Valar: aye, look at Sauron for example
ArPharazonV: yes, but true Elf-mortality isn't connected to their bodies
Menelvagor Valar: he died a couple times and still managed to get back
ArPharazonV: for they remain 'alive', in a sense, even after their
bodies were destroyed
Menelvagor Valar: nasty little buggers those evil Maia :-)
ArPharazonV: which is also the case with Sauron and Gandalf, for example
VardaValar1: Men also continue after their bodies are gone, but we call
it death when they abandon the bodies.
ArPharazonV: well, Gandalf's body wasn't actually destroyed, but you
know what I mean
Menelvagor Valar: Gandalf is a different matter, because his body was
human, his spirit was not
aranfinwe: time for to bid you all namarie
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie Finwe
VardaValar1: Namarie, Finwe
aranfinwe has left the room.
HeruRasa: Gandalf took a human form, dunno if that makes his body
VardaValar1: The Valar gave him a body to use, not a normal human body
ArPharazonV: and how about Saruman?
VardaValar1: It started aged and aged slowly. True of all the Istari
ArPharazonV: he seems to have 'died' in the same sense as Sauron, in
VardaValar1: Blown away
ArPharazonV: but anyway, I gotta go soon
VardaValar1: Ok, don't forget to sleep before your alarm goes off
ArPharazonV: Menel, before I go... I don't suppose you checked any
other stores yet? ;-)
ArPharazonV: for WoW?
VardaValar1: All of you Europeans need to pick a server to meet on!
VardaValar1: Then you'll know each other's styles when you join the
Menelvagor Valar: on sundays, nope
VardaValar1: Say get together at least once a week for quests, like
we're supposed to be doing on Fridays
VardaValar1: We do it some on Sundays too ;-)
VardaValar1: Fangorn is in there now
Menelvagor Valar: only me and Phar yet
Menelvagor Valar: and Phar doesn't have WoW yet
Menelvagor Valar: completely sold out here
ArPharazonV: so far it'll probably be Argent Dawn, but not sure yet...
I found a Guild for one of my chars on a pvp-server, too bad it's in a
Menelvagor Valar: no new copies are expected til june
ArPharazonV: not good
VardaValar1: Might look for a Normal server. You can do pvp or pve and
talk Tolkien if you want.
VardaValar1: Most versatile server.
ArPharazonV: oh well, I'll have some time to finally get through
Morrowind and its expansions... discovered the fabled robe of St. Roris
Menelvagor Valar: and the other problem is, that I like my Alliance
mage, and phar wants to go horde side on euro :-)
ArPharazonV: right, mostly
ArPharazonV: at least in the beginning
VardaValar1: Do a char on both
ArPharazonV: because it'll be practically Alliance-only for me in US,
and I want to divide my experiences a little bit
VardaValar1: Congrats Phar
VardaValar1: We were hoping to have enough people so we could do some
ArPharazonV: so it'll probably be mainly, if not only, Horde for Europe
ArPharazonV: at least in the beginning months
VardaValar1: You can do both
Menelvagor Valar: by that time I will most likely have moved mostly to
ArPharazonV: probably, but when I can get to the US, I will... with
Alliance characters, on Lothar
ArPharazonV: my Night Elf rogue Calion will be a reality, if the name's
not taken by then :-)
VardaValar1: I would say we are in After-meeting : )
Menelvagor Valar: Alliance on Lothar, Horde on Stormrage
ArPharazonV: I don't think I'll do much in the US besides Lothar
VardaValar1: You don't have to pvp just because you are on Horde
ArPharazonV: I like playing in the afternoon, and Europe is simply the
best for that
VardaValar1: I've met some awfully nice Horde guys while playing
VardaValar1: Some have saved me or saved my party
VardaValar1: They do things like bow and wave and help out
ArPharazonV: in fact, if it wasn't for this Guild, I don't think I'd
ever lay a hand on US servers...
ArPharazonV: I didn't leave Northrend in War3 until I discovered your
ArPharazonV: so it'll be probably just Lothar for me in the US
ArPharazonV: rest in Europe
ArPharazonV: Argent Dawn, Dragonmaw, and probably some others
VardaValar1: It is also your site now : )
ArPharazonV: besides submitting transcripts and posting in the forum, I
haven't really contributed to it
ArPharazonV: but thank you anyway ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: well...
VardaValar1: You are in the guild, so it is your site
Menelvagor Valar: half the time you are very much contributing to
after-meeting tolkien chats
VardaValar1: Those are indeed contributions
VardaValar1: You guys can all go play now if you like :-)
Musics4Me2 has left the room.
FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: I'm off to bed then
ArPharazonV: will be saving first, of course ;-)
ArPharazonV: with or without times?
Eonwe Valar: Pardon that I went silent,.. I've been digging in HoME.
ArPharazonV: I'll make it without... timezones would only be confusing
VardaValar1: Either is fine
VardaValar1: Best reason imaginable except pie.
Menelvagor Valar: I'll get them with and without, as usual :-)
ArPharazonV: pie's always good
ArPharazonV: lol... have to outdo me, Menel? ;-)
ArPharazonV: no matter
ArPharazonV: I'll stick to my one
Menelvagor Valar: not outdoing you, just doing my bit :-)
VardaValar1: My transcripts so far have been able to cover meetings
VardaValar1: So the time stamps are especially nice on either end.
ArPharazonV: dang spam mails.... my spam-box now has about 60 mails on
ArPharazonV: all about winning the lottery, or some financial thing
VardaValar1: The Nigerian spam, aye
VardaValar1: and the lotto one
VardaValar1: and plenty more
ArPharazonV: aye, some more....
VardaValar1: I wonder what percent are real ads
ArPharazonV: spam is spam to me
VardaValar1: Aye. All unwanted
ArPharazonV: unless it's personally directed to me and has any
relevance whatsoever, it's spam
HeruRasa: I don't care whether real or phony, I don't want unsolicited
e-mail at all
VardaValar1: Ulmo is right!
VardaValar1: Unsolicited is just that. Go away, spam1
ArPharazonV: ooh, almost forgot to add attachment
ArPharazonV: man, my desktop is full...
VardaValar1: Make a few folders. Helped mine
ArPharazonV: I know
VardaValar1: You've seen my desktop! Egads!
ArPharazonV: but most of it isn't related, or I want to have it in
ArPharazonV: you know what I mean
ArPharazonV: I usually toss everything in 'Mike's Documents', but some
things I just want to have clearer accessible
ArPharazonV: and over time, that can cover my desktop almost completely
VardaValar1: Mine has Games, Valar, and other subjects. One is
Antibiotics for cleaning comp
ArPharazonV: anyway, sent the transcript
ArPharazonV: did you get it?
VardaValar1: Got it : )
Eonwe Valar: Well, here's something from my search so far, though not
VardaValar1: or Hannon le if you prefer :-)
VardaValar1: What did you find, Eonwe?
ArPharazonV: Hannon le? that's new
ArPharazonV: what does it mean?
VardaValar1: Thank you
ArPharazonV: don't mention it
ArPharazonV: how about Hantalye?
Eonwe Valar: A reference in Return
of the Shadow talking about when TOlkien decided GIldor (met
Frodo in the Shire, interrupted pursuit of Black Riders) was a High Elf
VardaValar1: That does too. Quenya
Eonwe Valar: "as were all the Elves of Rivendell"
Eonwe Valar: or rather "and also the Elves of Rivendell"
VardaValar1: Very interesting!
ArPharazonV: that means Glorfindel, Elrond, Arwen, Elrohir, Elladan...
ArPharazonV: Glorfindel makes sense, of course
Eonwe Valar: So if we can assume there are Elves in Rivendell born in
Middle-Earth, this can support the inheritance argument.
ArPharazonV: Figwit ;-)
VardaValar1: I wonder if Glorfindel came back as a baby or as a full
ArPharazonV: I think he came back in Valinor a baby
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: but back to ME as a full grown elf
VardaValar1: So you figure reborn in Valinor and took ship to M-e?
ArPharazonV: unless, of course, he was reborn in ME
VardaValar1: Right, and it just did not say as far as I could tell.
ArPharazonV: I think I recall having read that Glorfindel went back to
ME in the Second Age
Eonwe Valar: Full grown. He got a new body to house after leaving
Mandos, as all Elves do as my understanding goes.
ArPharazonV: aye, but even Elves returning from Mandos start as babies
VardaValar1: Very cool So they are reborn in full adult.
ArPharazonV: and as they grow, they regain their full memory of their
VardaValar1: You'll have to find that Phar : )
ArPharazonV: it's in the section you quoted a few weeks ago
ArPharazonV: about marrying Elves etc
ArPharazonV: you probably quoted that exact same part there
ArPharazonV: lemme check the transcripts
VardaValar1: Another use of transcripts
Eonwe Valar: Don't remember quoting that.
VardaValar1: I think we might need to copy the guild info roster to
help Menelvagor put info on his page
ArPharazonV: nope, can't find the transcript
ArPharazonV: but I know you put it in there... you remember the section
I'm referring too?
VardaValar1: Give you something to look up
ArPharazonV: I know, but I gotta go soon... what book was it again? 10?
VardaValar1: I remember that there is food in the kitchen and I'm
thinking as serously as a hobbit.
Eonwe Valar: Laws and customs of the Eldar
ArPharazonV: aye, that part
ArPharazonV: brb, I guess....
Eonwe Valar: don't recall quoting anything about rebirth in there.
VardaValar1: That may be a good reason for him not to find it
ArPharazonV: no, I can't find the transcript where you quote the
marriages themselves either
GwaihirValar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: but I know that part has something about the rebirth of
ArPharazonV: 100% sure they start again as kids, and regain their
memory as they grow older
Orodreth V: *lightning effect*
Orodreth V: RAWR!
Orodreth V: *life*
Eonwe Valar: In an older version they were reborn in their children.
Eonwe Valar: but that was dropped as I recall.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: ah, here's something
ArPharazonV: "A houseless fea that chose or was permitted to return to
life re-entered the world through child-birth. Only thus could it
ArPharazonV: an attached note was that there was one exception
possible, when the body out of which it came was still intact
GwaihirValar: ie. Gandalf?
ArPharazonV: it's in the section of the laws and customs of the Eldar,
ArPharazonV: 'Of re-birth and other dooms of those that go to Mandos'
ArPharazonV: Gandalf isn't mentioned in the note
ArPharazonV: although it does bear resemblance
GwaihirValar: No, but he fits the description there...
GwaihirValar: his body was still intact... his spirit was released from
it, but was sent back to the same body...
ArPharazonV: the example given is Miriel, if she ever chose to return
ArPharazonV: but anyway, there's a large part that follows, including
about the regaining of memory etc
ArPharazonV: and I can't give it here, seeing as I have to go :-)
ArPharazonV: but you know now where to find it in the book
ArPharazonV: in my version it's page 221
ArPharazonV: but it may differ
GwaihirValar: admittedly, he's a little different being Maiar... but he
is still a fea....
ArPharazonV: ah, this is interesting...
ArPharazonV: "The eldar say that more than one re-birth is seldom
recorded. But the reasons for this they do not fully know.
ArPharazonV: Maybe, it is so ordered by the will of Eru; while the
Re-born (they say) are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies
and being more patient of griefs.
ArPharazonV: But many, doubtless, that have twice died do not wish to
ArPharazonV: anyway, have to be going now
ArPharazonV: I assume one of you will include this in the transcript
VardaValar1: I have it
ArPharazonV: Namarie then
VardaValar1: Mine rather often overlap the ones you gentles send.
ArPharazonV: have fun in WoW :-)
VardaValar1: Fangorn is doing that for us right now. But you bet!
ArPharazonV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Auros, I hope you get time to play : )
Eonwe Valar: Gotta devote time to programming really :}
VardaValar1: Sounds familiar
VardaValar1: What kind?
Eonwe Valar: C++
Eonwe Valar: Having problems getting my programs to read from files for
some reason, so gotta dig through my old programs from a year or so ago
and see how I got them to work then (pretty sure I've got at least one
program somewher ethat reads
Eonwe Valar: in from a file)
Eonwe Valar: C++ is C++ mostly :}
VardaValar1: Having a library of old programs is a huge help
VardaValar1: I'm going to go do some webwork and real life work
VardaValar1: Take care!
Eonwe Valar: Aye,.. My first C++ instructor was sure to point that
out,.. if you do that and have functions/classes, you can just
copy/paste what you need :}
VardaValar1: Too true. Good teacher
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}
Eonwe Valar: Aye, she was.
VardaValar1: Should I leave this chat up for any reason?
Eonwe Valar: not to my knowledge
VardaValar1: Okies. Orodreth, hear that? : )
Orodreth V: for me to spam?
Orodreth V: I have no good reason, no.
VardaValar1: I will let Orodreth go back to editing then : )
Orodreth V: *eyes fruit cannon*
VardaValar1: Chat is fun
VardaValar1: Just waiting for me to leave, huh?
Orodreth V: *whistles innoccently*
VardaValar1: *swipes black plums from ammo box and eats them*
VardaValar1: Favorite fruit besides those white Thompson seedless.
VardaValar1: and maybe your apples...
FINARFIN010: I'mmm back
VardaValar1: Well hi!
FINARFIN010: hehe Hi
VardaValar1: Orodreth is having trouble keeping ammo for his fruit
cannon, but otherwise all is well.
Orodreth V: /me says something about Valar and and abuse and power.
Your guide informs you that Orodreth often mutters such nonsence.
FINARFIN010: nict to hear that
VardaValar1: ack! He found out about the abuse of power!
FINARFIN010: not the abuse of power!!! Run!!1
Orodreth V: <randomtopic>I get to start driving soon.
FINARFIN010: well it seems that you all are haveing waaaayy too much
fun.. so i am just going to leav it with you and play a bit of dx2.
nighty nighty all :-)
Orodreth V: There is no such thing as too much fun.
FINARFIN010 has left the room.
VardaValar1: was on the phone
VardaValar1: D2X - wants to play
VardaValar1: no no - get some work done
VardaValar1: See you guys around
(non-overlapping part of Menelvagor's
Eonwe Valar (20:09:00): I'll be heading out as well. Take care all and
(20:09:12) Eonwe Valar has left the room.
(20:18:11) VardaValar1 has left the room.
(20:30:03) Arwen V1 has left the room.