Valar Guild

March 6, 2005 Meeting

5pm EST (GMT -5)

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
IRC:, join channel #valarguild Public Chat Valar
Sigma Chat: click on  Type in your guild name as user name.
Say a greeting when you enter on any of these platforms so we'll know you're there!
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Transcript team: Ar-Pharazon, Menelvagor (times), Varda

Attending: (17):
    ArPharazonV, Arwen V1, Caranthir-V/MoriFinwe, ElladanV, Eonwe Valar (presiding), FINARFIN010, Finwe-V/aranfinwe, FladrifV, Gil-galad-V/Xseanzee disco, GilraenV, GwaihirValar, Huan-Valar/LiberalHound, FarmerMaggot/Musics4Me2/Bridge, Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V, Ulmo-Valar/HeruRasa, VardaValar1
Meeting Begins
    Arathorn - computer problems, many disconnects, problem getting funds for repairs.
    Gwaihir - his dad's birthday is today.
    Links Page
       Italian fan site 
       WoW section: new board for Questing.
       Discussion topic: should we have passwords anywhere on the Forum?
    WoW Page
       Under new management by Menelvagor-(Valar)
    Farmer Maggot's new personal page
    Laxius Power
    WoW Weekly Guild Questing Friday 5pm EST on Lothar server, Alliance.
    Eonwe-(Valar) Do the descendants of the Caliquendi Noldor, for example Elrond, count as Calaquendi, or are they by default Dark Elves?

(Ar-Pharazon's transcript):
You have just entered room "Valar Guild Meetingplace."
Orodreth V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: brb
Orodreth V: I'll be plain lp
Orodreth V: playing
Orodreth V: so
Orodreth V: let everyone know
ArPharazonV: I'm playing too
Musics4Me2 has entered the room.
Orodreth V: you play lp too?
ArPharazonV: lp?
Orodreth V: Laxius Power
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
Orodreth V: o yea
GilraenV has entered the room.
FladrifV has entered the room.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
Arwen V1 has entered the room.
Orodreth V (16:42:57): afk for the next 150 hours or so >.>
Menelvagor Valar: it's a little early, but I guess I could do the invitations already :-)
ArPharazonV: ok, back
ArPharazonV: too many members now to stay playing ;-)
ArPharazonV: so.... Aiya Menel, Gilraen, Fladrif, Gwaihir and Arwen
GwaihirValar: hullo
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): Aiya :D
GilraenV: iya all
GilraenV: *Aiya
ArPharazonV: played any fun games this week, anybody?
Arwen V1: I played chase the math book around the desk
Arwen V1: but that one isnt any fun =P
ArPharazonV: :-)
GwaihirValar: lol
Eonwe Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
Xseanzee disco has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: hey
FladrifV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Everyone's so quiet this pre-meeting :}
ArPharazonV: have you got anything to talk about?
Eonwe Valar: Chocolate :}
ArPharazonV: meh, don't like chocolate...
GwaihirValar: What?!?! Blasphemer!
Eonwe Valar: There you go, a conversation forms already :}
ArPharazonV: don't like how it tastes, how it looks, how it smells... but hey, it'd be a boring world if we were all the same
Eonwe Valar: We'll give it a couple more minutes while I gather news tidbits, then we'll begin.
GilraenV: sacrilege!
(Varda's transcript, timed spots are from Menelvagor):
You have just entered room "Valar Guild Meetingplace."
Eonwe Valar (17:12:10): Welcome :}
VardaValar1: Aiya
VardaValar1: Sorry, rl - feeding people
Eonwe Valar: np :}
VardaValar1: back now
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Taking roll now, then we'll begin.
Eonwe Valar: Anybody on through Sigmachat or any other medium, say heya now and be counted.
Eonwe Valar: OK, let's begin.
Musics4Me2: ArPharazonV (SigmaChat): Aiya :-)
ArPharazonV: sorry bout that

Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo.
Musics4Me2: Varda (SigmaChat): Now in Sigma Chat. No others present
Musics4Me2: Varda (SigmaChat): except Phar :-)
Eonwe Valar: :}
Eonwe Valar: Membership: Any membership news?
VardaValar1: Arathorn says hi
VardaValar1: Fangorn, Eowyn, Sauron, Bilbo say hi
Menelvagor Valar: hi back :-)
Eonwe Valar: Any other Membership news?
VardaValar1: Arathorn is having a lot of connection problems
VardaValar1: Some sound suspiciously like my old router :-)
Eonwe Valar: hehe
VardaValar1: Repair funds not currently available
VardaValar1: That's all my Membership news
Eonwe Valar: Thanks.

Eonwe Valar: On to Web news:
Eonwe Valar: New Link:
Eonwe Valar: Il Signore degli aneli Edoras - Italian fan site. Images, articles on the Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion, chat. by Thengel
Eonwe Valar: Found in the Fan Sites section of the Links Page
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Varda.
VardaValar1: mp
Eonwe Valar: Forum:
aranfinwe has entered the room.
aranfinwe: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya Finwe :-)
Eonwe Valar: As you know, we have a new Hunts board for the WoW section.
Eonwe Valar: Currently, it's password protected.
Eonwe Valar: Elatan brought up and discussed that this may be causing problems with members' ability to read it, namely they don't know the password. Your thoughts?
VardaValar1: If you don't remember the password, email me, just as you did for gaming
Menelvagor Valar: my thoughts are that they should know
GwaihirValar: its my dad's birthday celebration... so I've gotta go do something then have dinner....
VardaValar1: Great Gwaihir!
VardaValar1: Happy birthday to him!
HeruRasa has entered the room.
GwaihirValar: afk for a while :-)
ArPharazonV: Aiya
HeruRasa: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: We were just talking about the Password on the Hunts board for WoW. Your thoughts Ulmo?
HeruRasa: I never could think of a need for passwords
Eonwe Valar: Keeping out spam for one :}
HeruRasa: never saw any, but ok
MoriFinwe has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: The reason we have on on the Trade board. It's so members can find and offer items without random people coming in and begging for "leet loot"
VardaValar1: Aiya Caranthir
MoriFinwe: Aiya
VardaValar1: The other question is should we wait until we see a spam problem before using a password?
Eonwe Valar: Thoughts?
ElladanV has entered the room.
ElladanV: Aiya old ppl
HeruRasa: I would think so Varda, my bet is that we don't get any
VardaValar1: We only have had a little spam so far, but one of the three admins usually catches it fast
VardaValar1: We do get spam
HeruRasa: can the forum be set up so that guests can only access 1 section?
Eonwe Valar: It can be, but that doesn't stop them from registering and doing the same thing.
MoriFinwe has left the room.
Menelvagor Valar: we already have that security in place
HeruRasa: most EQ forums only lets guests access a simple chat section, to introduce themselves
Menelvagor Valar: only a few sections are available for guests to see and post threads
Menelvagor Valar: most sections are available for guests to see, but not post
HeruRasa: so who is gonna spam the WoW forums?
Menelvagor Valar: some sections are unviewable to guests
Eonwe Valar: My guess would be WoW people who somehow stumble upon us :}
LiberalHound has entered the room.
Menelvagor Valar: we had a registered person spamming the American Army thread
Menelvagor Valar: he was removed quickly after
Menelvagor Valar: and that's why we decided to leave passwords in place, as well as add the extra security of the guest thingies
HeruRasa: now you've lost me completely
Menelvagor Valar: ok
HeruRasa: if only Valar members can even see the WoW section i dont see how we can have any problems
Eonwe Valar: It's not only Valar members
VardaValar1: Only Valar members can see the trading section
Menelvagor Valar: because non-valar members can register at the board
Eonwe Valar: Anyone who registers for the board can post unless we put in passwords.
HeruRasa: no reason for anyone but Valar to see them, just make it so
Menelvagor Valar: people registered on the forum are referred to as "members"
Menelvagor Valar: that doesn't make them members of Valar
HeruRasa: they dont need approval?
Menelvagor Valar: no
HeruRasa: change that
Eonwe Valar: We can't
Eonwe Valar: Yet
VardaValar1: Most are fellow fans, not a problem
VardaValar1: Some join us later
Eonwe Valar: I believe it's in the owrks for verson 4 of Proboards, however.
Menelvagor Valar: and even if we could, we don't want that, it's a free forum, also for outsiders to view and post in discussions and stuff
FarmerMaggotV has entered the room.
HeruRasa: gotta run, taxi time, back in a half hour
Eonwe Valar: I believe we have had a couple come fro mthe boards,..
Eonwe Valar: Any other thoughts on this?
VardaValar1: I like letting outsiders see most of the board
Eonwe Valar: Going once.
VardaValar1: Web news
Eonwe Valar: Going Twice.
VardaValar1: I need to apologize to about 3 people here :-)
FarmerMaggotV: only 3 tonight?
Eonwe Valar: GO ahead Varda :}
VardaValar1: Orodreth, your story will be going up this week
VardaValar1: Thanks a lot, Farmer ;-)
VardaValar1: Pharazon and Menelvagor, your transcript info will be quilted in.
ArPharazonV: :-)
VardaValar1: That's all
FarmerMaggotV: wasn't meant to be sarcastic Varda, but it kinda looks that way heh
ArPharazonV: no problem about the transcript
ArPharazonV: almost expecting it to be late :-D
Menelvagor Valar: shame on you too Phar!
VardaValar1: I do have a transcript up however
ArPharazonV: but seriously, I know you're busy with a lot of stuff.. not blaming you for anything
VardaValar1: Any other web news?
Eonwe Valar: Ok, Menelvagor has some web News :}
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Menelvagor.
Menelvagor Valar: ok
Menelvagor Valar: it's about the WoW page
Menelvagor Valar: Maglor has let me know that because of him playing on another server, he feels like he shouldn't handle the page himself
Menelvagor Valar: as per earlier agreemant, I had control of the text part already
Menelvagor Valar: however, as I had no idea how he actually implemented the things on his site, and the tries I made failed horribly
Menelvagor Valar: I asked him to let me take over the entire page
Menelvagor Valar: I've also asked Varda in case it could be accounted for as a hostile take-over
Menelvagor Valar: Varda let me know it was ok :-)
Menelvagor Valar: also, because the format on Maglors page is 800x600, making it a little hard to read sometimes
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate
Menelvagor Valar: for the last 4 hours, I have labored to get the new page done :-)
Menelvagor Valar: and I succeeded too :-)
Menelvagor Valar:
Menelvagor Valar: there's the new link :-)
ArPharazonV: ah, the screenshot-link finally working, I see?
VardaValar1: It looks as if you have a start
Menelvagor Valar: note that it is not yet fully complete, as the image on the top of Maglor's page as well as the link buttons are unavailable to me
Menelvagor Valar: I have asked him to send me those as soon as possible
VardaValar1: I can possibly help you with a few things
FarmerMaggotV: I can do some images if needed
VardaValar1: It is ok to have some fancy stuff. Doesn't have to be completely plain
VardaValar1: WoW users tend to have reasonably good comps
FarmerMaggotV: heh, 'tend'
Menelvagor Valar: well, I have a reasonable comp, and most of the times, it takes me more than half a minute to load Maglor's page
ArPharazonV: so compromise :-)
Menelvagor Valar: aye
Menelvagor Valar: no mouse-overs as on his site, cuz I know nothing about how to do that :-)
ArPharazonV: wait.... half a minute? wow, doesn't take that long even on my pc
Menelvagor Valar: yep
Menelvagor Valar: but well, was running like a dozen or more windows at the time trying to get the job done, so that may have influenced matters :-)
VardaValar1: My little P166 does better than that
FarmerMaggotV: my 120MHz Power Macs do about that
FarmerMaggotV: :-P
Menelvagor Valar: as I said, I had a like a dozen windows open, half of which were internet browsers, putting a big strain on my comp :-)
Menelvagor Valar: Eonwe just mentioned to me that the links on the charter are not working (hadn't implemented them yet, haste, haste), they will go up shortly
Menelvagor Valar: and that's about it :-)
Menelvagor Valar: or well
Menelvagor Valar: except for one thing
Menelvagor Valar: would you rather have the links separated into 2 (linkable) top frames as they are now, or add a third side frame on which they all go?
Xseanzee disco has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Either way is fine to me.
Eonwe Valar: As long as it's legible
Menelvagor Valar: side frame won't be big, the rest will remain legible
VardaValar1: Ok, that is detail that can be worked on outside the meeting
Menelvagor Valar: but creating this setup, I have also considered those still on 800x600
Menelvagor Valar: aye aye Ma'am! 8-)
Eonwe Valar: Thanks Menelvagor.
Eonwe Valar: Farmer Maggot has a bit of web news as well.
Eonwe Valar: Your floor, Farmer.
FarmerMaggotV: Yep, I've finally gotten around to creating a personal web site again.
FarmerMaggotV: located at
FarmerMaggotV: and that's all ;-)
Eonwe Valar: congrats :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Web news?

Eonwe Valar: Ok, On to Gaming News:
Eonwe Valar: WoW Weekly Questing took us to the Deadmines on Friday. Check out the Report now up in the Hunts Section
Eonwe Valar: Again, if you don't remember the password, e-mail Varda.
Eonwe Valar: The Weekly Guild Questing reports will be posted in the Hunts Board, and I'll try to have a thread to which all can be posted set up before the Questing time every Friday.
Eonwe Valar: Just put your report in a reply to the thread. If you have comments or such, use another thread or PM the reporter.
GwaihirValar: back for a sec, and I forgot to mention this 'fore I left... but weekdays I won't be around from about 2PM 'til 1 AM due to work and travel times...(Central times of course)
ArPharazonV: dang, keep forgetting the password... well, going through my mail again, it should be in there somewhere
Eonwe Valar: That way the thread only contains reports, making it easier for everyone to read.
VardaValar1: Or ask me, Phar ;-)
ArPharazonV: neh, it'll be ok... I've got all my private mail in a seperate folder on my old email address
VardaValar1: okies
ArPharazonV: just wish the darn thing had a search function...
Eonwe Valar: Any other Gaming News?
ArPharazonV: but anyway, continue
Eonwe Valar: Any Tolkien topics? Whisper now or I'll give one :}
VardaValar1: WoW
Eonwe Valar: Go ahead Varda.
VardaValar1: Elatan suggests that for a Friday game we look into Stormgarde, mainly just poke around and see what is there ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, there
VardaValar1: We had a group of four of us today in Arathis doing quests. Great fun
Eonwe Valar: 's discussion on where to go next week on the Hunts Board. Another reason to go check it out :}
Eonwe Valar: Anythign else?
VardaValar1: No more gaming news from here.
Menelvagor Valar: Stromgarde has 37 elite stealthers and up
VardaValar1: ouch. I'm dead ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, I tried it in there at 33 and it wasn't pretty :}
Eonwe Valar: Ok, Tolkien Time :}
Menelvagor Valar: better to do Stockades, some quests there, about 6 in total, lvl 22 elites and up
ElladanV has left the room.

Tolkien Chat:
Eonwe Valar: There's been some discussion in the past on the MEO boards about the Calaquendi, the Light Elves (those who saw the Light of the Two Trees).
Eonwe Valar: This of course includes the Noldor, who later returned to Middle-Earth.
Eonwe Valar: The question is, do the descendants of these Noldor, for example Elrond, count as Calaquendi, or are they by default Dark Elves?
VardaValar1: And how about the center road, the Twilight Elves?
Menelvagor Valar: Elrond is counted among the Half-Elves, no title is given for Cala or Mori for half-elves :-)
Eonwe Valar: Elrond is descended from Noldor, however.
VardaValar1: The child of a person born in Valinor is still his child, whether or not he is in Middle-earth?
Menelvagor Valar: but also from Men
Eonwe Valar: But he was counted among the Elves.
Menelvagor Valar: but still he was given the titled "Half-Elven
Eonwe Valar: However, he is an example, and there are others out there, namely any Noldo born in Middle-Earth.
ArPharazonV: like Gil-Galad
ArPharazonV: probably
VardaValar1: Then the elves in Middle-earth including this half-elf counted elf, did go to Valinor, at which point he is definitely a light elf.
Menelvagor Valar: is Luthien counted among the Cala-Quendi?
Eonwe Valar: Luthien is not descended from a Noldo
Eonwe Valar: but you make a good point.
Menelvagor Valar: indeed, but she is a descendent from Thingol, who had seen the Trees as well as Melian, the Maia
Eonwe Valar: But let's narrow this to the everyday Noldo born in Middle-Earth to parents from Aman.
ArPharazonV: indeed, Thingol was of the Calaquendi
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
ArPharazonV: Gil-Galad, perhaps... Celebrimbor...
Menelvagor Valar: well, if Luthien could be counted among the Cala-Quendi, it would certainly make it easier to count any Noldor born in ME among them as well
Eonwe Valar: Luthien is also half Maia, so we would half to examine that course as well if we did.
Menelvagor Valar: at any rate, I don't recall mentioning ever that those Noldor born in ME from parents from Aman were CalaQuendi
ArPharazonV: I can't recall them being accounted among the Moriquendi either, though
Menelvagor Valar: however, I do believe that those few mentioned in the Silmarillion are counted among them, albeit not officially
Eonwe Valar: It also didn't say they weren't, which is why we're having this discussion :}
ArPharazonV: I was under the impression that their children and grandchildren were accounted as Calaquendi too, or at least as High Elves...
VardaValar1: There are three things: Light, Dark, and Twilight. But they are definitely not called Sindar.
ArPharazonV: though the question has entered my mind as well several times
ArPharazonV: yes, Varda, several :-)
VardaValar1: It does seem as if they counted it as something inherited
ArPharazonV: for example, was Celebrian of the High Elves?
Menelvagor Valar: I believe it was Men who gave the Noldor their title of High-Elves
ArPharazonV: if not, how come she was still allowed to go to Valinor? or does that count for Moriquendi as well?
Menelvagor Valar: it doesn't necessarily mean they are Cala-Quendi, although they were aftwards always considered as such
VardaValar1: If going to Valinor made them Light Elves, would that make others who went later Light Elves?
ArPharazonV: would that make Frodo a light hobbit? ;-)
ArPharazonV: oh, wait, he went to Eressea
VardaValar1: He didn't go to stay : )
Eonwe Valar: In the top of the division there are Eldar and Avari: those who took up the Journey and those who refused.
ArPharazonV: btw, was it even so that the returning exiles were allowed to go to Valinor?
ArPharazonV: weren't they just allowed to go to Eressea and no further?
VardaValar1: Galadriel did go
VardaValar1: Aye Eonwe
Eonwe Valar: Of the Eldar, the Noldor, Vanyar, and part of the Teleri who reached Valinor and saw the Light of the Two Trees were called the Calaquendi.
VardaValar1: Aye
ArPharazonV: also, doesn't the term 'Light Elf' refer to the light of the two Trees? Which were dead later?
ArPharazonV: right
Eonwe Valar: All Elves were called to Aman, not all accepted.
VardaValar1: The Refusers, the Avari, the Dark Elves
Eonwe Valar: The Silvan Elves were Eldar, having started out on the journey, so they still had the Longing buried within them (i.e. Legolas).
Eonwe Valar: To directly answer your question, Phar, the Light they refer is indeed that of the Two Trees.
Menelvagor Valar: sidenote: the links on the charter are now operational
Eonwe Valar: I believe the part about the Exiles going no further than Eressea is in BoLT
VardaValar1: Congrats, Menel :-)
ArPharazonV: I think I saw it in other books as well, Eonwe... but not sure
Eonwe Valar: So the question remains: Is the term "Calaquendi" hereditary or specific to the generation(s) that experienced it?
ArPharazonV: perhaps there's an underlying question to that
ArPharazonV: does the term Calaquendi refer to the fact that they have physically seen the Light, or that the Light is 'in their faces'?
ArPharazonV: in the latter case, it could surely have been hereditary
ArPharazonV: brb
Eonwe Valar: so what do we know that could support either direction?
Menelvagor Valar: the Golden Midway, Elves of Twilight :-)
ArPharazonV: the Sindar... gotta love em
ArPharazonV: btw, the Nandor aren't considered Sindarin, right?
Eonwe Valar: No, they had their own culture and rulers.
Eonwe Valar: The Sindar acknowledged Elu Thingol as their king.
ArPharazonV: hmm... did Beren and Luthien have any authority/power/influence over the Nandor?
ArPharazonV: they did ambush the Dwarves from Doriath with a Nandor army, right?
HeruRasa: back
ArPharazonV: I know the Nandor never took a king again after the death of Denethor, but surely Beren seems to have been a figure of power in his 'second' life...
Eonwe Valar: Wb Ulmo: discussing the Calaquendi: was it strictly thsoe who experienced it or are their descendants also under this title?
FINARFIN010 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: aye, sorry for drifting off
ArPharazonV: Aiya
FINARFIN010: heya
Eonwe Valar: I just did a quick rereading of that passage.
Eonwe Valar: It seems he may have had some influence, perhaps more as a friend or the Green-Elves than a ruler-figure, as it says "many of the Green-Elves" but not "all"
Eonwe Valar: If you take the meanign as those who are fit for war.
ArPharazonV: ic
ArPharazonV: seemed quite odd, though, that Beren and Luthien and their descendants should dwell on an island seemingly so central to a people they don't even belong too....
Eonwe Valar: It was quiet and out of the way.
ArPharazonV: instead of remaining in Doriath
ArPharazonV: aye, perhaps
Menelvagor Valar: as I recall, the Ents participated in that battle as well
ArPharazonV: aye, they blocked those who escaped the battle with Beren
Menelvagor Valar: which could refer to Luthien's influence over them by heritance of Melian, as she was a Maia of Yavanna
ArPharazonV: finished off the rest of the Dwarves
ArPharazonV: hmm.... good connection
ArPharazonV: didn't figure that
Eonwe Valar: We seem to have come to a standstill with the term Calaquendi. Is there nothing to suggest either direction?
Menelvagor Valar: and that in itself *might* that Luthien was indeed Cala-Quendi
Menelvagor Valar: if at least because she was part Maia
ArPharazonV: and part Cala-Quendi, as well :-)
ArPharazonV: Thingol saw the Trees
Menelvagor Valar: *might* prove that*
Menelvagor Valar: true, but I think the Maia in her would have the upper hand
Eonwe Valar: Well, the Maia part wouldn't play a role in a decision of Elven origin.
ArPharazonV: true
Menelvagor Valar: she was counted among the Elves tho
ArPharazonV: among the Eldar, even :-)
Eonwe Valar: Otherwise, the Kings of Numenor could be counted Calaquendi despite they were mortal.
VardaValar1: They could not, because they are not Elves
VardaValar1: That's the Quendi part of the word
Menelvagor Valar: they are Men, and called so
ArPharazonV: they were counted among Men
ArPharazonV: because Elros chose that fate
Menelvagor Valar: Luthien is Elven, even tho she was part Maia
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but if the Maia plays a part in one, it plays a part in all.
FINARFIN010: yeah same life span
ArPharazonV: I remember reading that unless they were directly given another choice, anyone part mortal became mortal....
FINARFIN010: well i am off to cook some dinner ark. :-)
Menelvagor Valar: well, there is a difference between being counted Elven and not being counted Elven
ArPharazonV: btw, what's the difference between life-spans of the Maiar and the Quendi?
Menelvagor Valar: nothing
VardaValar1: Starting point for one
ArPharazonV: are the Maiar not bound to Ea as well?
ArPharazonV: yes, starting point....
Eonwe Valar: Maiar are truly immortal whereas the lifespan of the Elves = that of Arda.
VardaValar1: The Maiar who came to Arda are, but not others
ArPharazonV: but that has no part in analysing Luthien, since her starting point was obviously on Arda
Menelvagor Valar: and Tolkien did have a very strong patriarchal sense
VardaValar1: She was not Maia, just part Maia.
ArPharazonV: so when Arda truly dies, the Elves die as well, but the Maiar and Valar live on?
Menelvagor Valar: only those who chose to stay with Eru
ArPharazonV: but those like Melian are bound to the life-span of Arda as well?
VardaValar1: Ainur don't have real bodies to die from
VardaValar1: Elves do
Menelvagor Valar: aye, look at Sauron for example
ArPharazonV: yes, but true Elf-mortality isn't connected to their bodies
Menelvagor Valar: he died a couple times and still managed to get back
ArPharazonV: for they remain 'alive', in a sense, even after their bodies were destroyed
Menelvagor Valar: nasty little buggers those evil Maia :-)
ArPharazonV: which is also the case with Sauron and Gandalf, for example
VardaValar1: Men also continue after their bodies are gone, but we call it death when they abandon the bodies.
ArPharazonV: well, Gandalf's body wasn't actually destroyed, but you know what I mean
Menelvagor Valar: Gandalf is a different matter, because his body was human, his spirit was not
aranfinwe: time for to bid you all namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie
Menelvagor Valar: Namarie Finwe
VardaValar1: Namarie, Finwe
aranfinwe has left the room.
HeruRasa: namarie
HeruRasa: Gandalf took a human form, dunno if that makes his body "human"
VardaValar1: The Valar gave him a body to use, not a normal human body
ArPharazonV: and how about Saruman?
VardaValar1: It started aged and aged slowly. True of all the Istari
ArPharazonV: he seems to have 'died' in the same sense as Sauron, in the end
VardaValar1: Blown away
ArPharazonV: aye
ArPharazonV: but anyway, I gotta go soon
VardaValar1: Ok, don't forget to sleep before your alarm goes off
ArPharazonV: Menel, before I go... I don't suppose you checked any other stores yet? ;-)
ArPharazonV: for WoW?
VardaValar1: All of you Europeans need to pick a server to meet on!
VardaValar1: Then you'll know each other's styles when you join the Lothar crew
Menelvagor Valar: on sundays, nope
VardaValar1: Say get together at least once a week for quests, like we're supposed to be doing on Fridays
VardaValar1: We do it some on Sundays too ;-)
VardaValar1: Fangorn is in there now
Menelvagor Valar: only me and Phar yet
Menelvagor Valar: and Phar doesn't have WoW yet
Menelvagor Valar: completely sold out here
ArPharazonV: so far it'll probably be Argent Dawn, but not sure yet... I found a Guild for one of my chars on a pvp-server, too bad it's in a 45+ zone...
Menelvagor Valar: no new copies are expected til june
ArPharazonV: aye
ArPharazonV: not good
VardaValar1: Might look for a Normal server. You can do pvp or pve and talk Tolkien if you want.
VardaValar1: Most versatile server.
ArPharazonV: oh well, I'll have some time to finally get through Morrowind and its expansions... discovered the fabled robe of St. Roris today
Menelvagor Valar: and the other problem is, that I like my Alliance mage, and phar wants to go horde side on euro :-)
ArPharazonV: right, mostly
ArPharazonV: at least in the beginning
VardaValar1: Do a char on both
ArPharazonV: because it'll be practically Alliance-only for me in US, and I want to divide my experiences a little bit
VardaValar1: Congrats Phar
VardaValar1: We were hoping to have enough people so we could do some Horde too
ArPharazonV: so it'll probably be mainly, if not only, Horde for Europe
ArPharazonV: at least in the beginning months
VardaValar1: You can do both
Menelvagor Valar: by that time I will most likely have moved mostly to US servers
ArPharazonV: probably, but when I can get to the US, I will... with Alliance characters, on Lothar
ArPharazonV: my Night Elf rogue Calion will be a reality, if the name's not taken by then :-)
VardaValar1: I would say we are in After-meeting : )
Menelvagor Valar: Alliance on Lothar, Horde on Stormrage
ArPharazonV: I don't think I'll do much in the US besides Lothar
VardaValar1: You don't have to pvp just because you are on Horde
ArPharazonV: I like playing in the afternoon, and Europe is simply the best for that
VardaValar1: I've met some awfully nice Horde guys while playing Alliance
VardaValar1: Some have saved me or saved my party
VardaValar1: They do things like bow and wave and help out
ArPharazonV: in fact, if it wasn't for this Guild, I don't think I'd ever lay a hand on US servers...
ArPharazonV: I didn't leave Northrend in War3 until I discovered your site
ArPharazonV: so it'll be probably just Lothar for me in the US
ArPharazonV: rest in Europe
ArPharazonV: Argent Dawn, Dragonmaw, and probably some others
VardaValar1: It is also your site now : )
ArPharazonV: :-)
ArPharazonV: besides submitting transcripts and posting in the forum, I haven't really contributed to it
ArPharazonV: but thank you anyway ;-)
Menelvagor Valar: well...
VardaValar1: You are in the guild, so it is your site
Menelvagor Valar: half the time you are very much contributing to after-meeting tolkien chats
VardaValar1: Those are indeed contributions
VardaValar1: You guys can all go play now if you like :-)
Musics4Me2 has left the room.
FarmerMaggotV has left the room.
ArPharazonV: I'm off to bed then
VardaValar1: Namarie
ArPharazonV: will be saving first, of course ;-)
ArPharazonV: with or without times?
Eonwe Valar: Pardon that I went silent,.. I've been digging in HoME.
ArPharazonV: I'll make it without... timezones would only be confusing
ArPharazonV: ah
ArPharazonV: and?
VardaValar1: Either is fine
VardaValar1: Best reason imaginable except pie.
Menelvagor Valar: I'll get them with and without, as usual :-)
ArPharazonV: pie's always good
ArPharazonV: lol... have to outdo me, Menel? ;-)
ArPharazonV: no matter
ArPharazonV: I'll stick to my one
ArPharazonV: saved
VardaValar1: Thanks
Menelvagor Valar: not outdoing you, just doing my bit :-)
VardaValar1: My transcripts so far have been able to cover meetings
VardaValar1: So the time stamps are especially nice on either end.
ArPharazonV: dang spam mails.... my spam-box now has about 60 mails on it
ArPharazonV: all about winning the lottery, or some financial thing from Africa
VardaValar1: ouch
VardaValar1: The Nigerian spam, aye
VardaValar1: and the lotto one
VardaValar1: and plenty more
ArPharazonV: aye, some more....
VardaValar1: I wonder what percent are real ads
ArPharazonV: spam is spam to me
VardaValar1: Aye. All unwanted
ArPharazonV: unless it's personally directed to me and has any relevance whatsoever, it's spam
HeruRasa: I don't care whether real or phony, I don't want unsolicited e-mail at all
VardaValar1: Ulmo is right!
VardaValar1: Unsolicited is just that. Go away, spam1
ArPharazonV: ooh, almost forgot to add attachment
ArPharazonV: man, my desktop is full...
VardaValar1: Make a few folders. Helped mine
ArPharazonV: I know
VardaValar1: You've seen my desktop! Egads!
ArPharazonV: but most of it isn't related, or I want to have it in direct sight
ArPharazonV: ..
ArPharazonV: you know what I mean
ArPharazonV: I usually toss everything in 'Mike's Documents', but some things I just want to have clearer accessible
ArPharazonV: and over time, that can cover my desktop almost completely :-)
VardaValar1: Mine has Games, Valar, and other subjects. One is Antibiotics for cleaning comp
ArPharazonV: anyway, sent the transcript
ArPharazonV: did you get it?
VardaValar1: Checking
VardaValar1: Got it : )
VardaValar1: Hantal!
Eonwe Valar: Well, here's something from my search so far, though not much:
VardaValar1: or Hannon le if you prefer :-)
VardaValar1: What did you find, Eonwe?
ArPharazonV: Hannon le? that's new
ArPharazonV: what does it mean?
VardaValar1: Thank you
ArPharazonV: ah
ArPharazonV: don't mention it
ArPharazonV: how about Hantalye?
Eonwe Valar: A reference in Return of the Shadow talking about when TOlkien decided GIldor (met Frodo in the Shire, interrupted pursuit of Black Riders) was a High Elf
VardaValar1: That does too. Quenya
Eonwe Valar: "as were all the Elves of Rivendell"
ArPharazonV: nice
Eonwe Valar: or rather "and also the Elves of Rivendell"
VardaValar1: Very interesting!
ArPharazonV: that means Glorfindel, Elrond, Arwen, Elrohir, Elladan...
ArPharazonV: Glorfindel makes sense, of course
Eonwe Valar: So if we can assume there are Elves in Rivendell born in Middle-Earth, this can support the inheritance argument.
ArPharazonV: Figwit ;-)
VardaValar1: I wonder if Glorfindel came back as a baby or as a full grown elf.
ArPharazonV: I think he came back in Valinor a baby
VardaValar1: Aye, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: but back to ME as a full grown elf
VardaValar1: So you figure reborn in Valinor and took ship to M-e?
ArPharazonV: unless, of course, he was reborn in ME
VardaValar1: Right, and it just did not say as far as I could tell.
ArPharazonV: I think I recall having read that Glorfindel went back to ME in the Second Age
Eonwe Valar: Full grown. He got a new body to house after leaving Mandos, as all Elves do as my understanding goes.
ArPharazonV: aye, but even Elves returning from Mandos start as babies again
VardaValar1: Very cool So they are reborn in full adult.
ArPharazonV: and as they grow, they regain their full memory of their past lives
VardaValar1: You'll have to find that Phar : )
ArPharazonV: it's in the section you quoted a few weeks ago
ArPharazonV: about marrying Elves etc
ArPharazonV: you probably quoted that exact same part there
ArPharazonV: lemme check the transcripts
VardaValar1: Another use of transcripts
Eonwe Valar: Don't remember quoting that.
VardaValar1: I think we might need to copy the guild info roster to help Menelvagor put info on his page
ArPharazonV: nope, can't find the transcript
ArPharazonV: but I know you put it in there... you remember the section I'm referring too?
VardaValar1: Give you something to look up
ArPharazonV: I know, but I gotta go soon... what book was it again? 10? 11?
VardaValar1: I remember that there is food in the kitchen and I'm thinking as serously as a hobbit.
Eonwe Valar: Laws and customs of the Eldar
ArPharazonV: aye, that part
ArPharazonV: brb, I guess....
Eonwe Valar: don't recall quoting anything about rebirth in there.
VardaValar1: That may be a good reason for him not to find it
VardaValar1: afk
ArPharazonV: no, I can't find the transcript where you quote the marriages themselves either
GwaihirValar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: but I know that part has something about the rebirth of the Elves
ArPharazonV: 100% sure they start again as kids, and regain their memory as they grow older
Orodreth V: *lightning effect*
Orodreth V: RAWR!
Orodreth V: *life*
Eonwe Valar: In an older version they were reborn in their children.
Eonwe Valar: but that was dropped as I recall.
GwaihirValar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: ah, here's something
ArPharazonV: "A houseless fea that chose or was permitted to return to life re-entered the world through child-birth. Only thus could it return."
ArPharazonV: an attached note was that there was one exception possible, when the body out of which it came was still intact
GwaihirValar: ie. Gandalf?
ArPharazonV: it's in the section of the laws and customs of the Eldar, aye
ArPharazonV: 'Of re-birth and other dooms of those that go to Mandos'
ArPharazonV: Gandalf isn't mentioned in the note
ArPharazonV: although it does bear resemblance
GwaihirValar: No, but he fits the description there...
GwaihirValar: his body was still intact... his spirit was released from it, but was sent back to the same body...
ArPharazonV: the example given is Miriel, if she ever chose to return
ArPharazonV: but anyway, there's a large part that follows, including about the regaining of memory etc
ArPharazonV: and I can't give it here, seeing as I have to go :-)
ArPharazonV: but you know now where to find it in the book
ArPharazonV: in my version it's page 221
ArPharazonV: but it may differ
GwaihirValar: admittedly, he's a little different being Maiar... but he is still a fea....
ArPharazonV: ah, this is interesting...
ArPharazonV: "The eldar say that more than one re-birth is seldom recorded. But the reasons for this they do not fully know.
ArPharazonV: Maybe, it is so ordered by the will of Eru; while the Re-born (they say) are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs.
ArPharazonV: But many, doubtless, that have twice died do not wish to return."

ArPharazonV: anyway, have to be going now
ArPharazonV: I assume one of you will include this in the transcript
VardaValar1: I have it
ArPharazonV: ok
ArPharazonV: Namarie then
VardaValar1: Mine rather often overlap the ones you gentles send.
VardaValar1: Namarie
ArPharazonV: have fun in WoW :-)
VardaValar1: Fangorn is doing that for us right now. But you bet!
ArPharazonV: okidoki
ArPharazonV: bye
ArPharazonV has left the room.
VardaValar1: Auros, I hope you get time to play : )
Eonwe Valar: Gotta devote time to programming really :}
VardaValar1: Sounds familiar
VardaValar1: What kind?
Eonwe Valar: C++
VardaValar1: Visual?
Eonwe Valar: Having problems getting my programs to read from files for some reason, so gotta dig through my old programs from a year or so ago and see how I got them to work then (pretty sure I've got at least one program somewher ethat reads
Eonwe Valar: in from a file)
Eonwe Valar: C++ is C++ mostly :}
VardaValar1: Having a library of old programs is a huge help
VardaValar1: I'm going to go do some webwork and real life work
VardaValar1: Take care!
Eonwe Valar: Aye,.. My first C++ instructor was sure to point that out,.. if you do that and have functions/classes, you can just copy/paste what you need :}
VardaValar1: Too true. Good teacher
Eonwe Valar: Take care :}
Eonwe Valar: Aye, she was.
VardaValar1: Should I leave this chat up for any reason?
Eonwe Valar: not to my knowledge
VardaValar1: Okies. Orodreth, hear that? : )
Orodreth V: for me to spam?
Orodreth V: I have no good reason, no.
VardaValar1: I will let Orodreth go back to editing then : )
Orodreth V: *eyes fruit cannon*
VardaValar1: Chat is fun
VardaValar1: Just waiting for me to leave, huh?
Orodreth V: *whistles innoccently*
VardaValar1: *swipes black plums from ammo box and eats them*
VardaValar1: Favorite fruit besides those white Thompson seedless. *grabs*
VardaValar1: and maybe your apples...
FINARFIN010: I'mmm back
VardaValar1: Well hi!
FINARFIN010: hehe Hi
VardaValar1: Orodreth is having trouble keeping ammo for his fruit cannon, but otherwise all is well.
Orodreth V: /me says something about Valar and and abuse and power. Your guide informs you that Orodreth often mutters such nonsence.
FINARFIN010: nict to hear that
VardaValar1: ack! He found out about the abuse of power!
FINARFIN010: not the abuse of power!!! Run!!1
Orodreth V: <randomtopic>I get to start driving soon. </randomtopic>
FINARFIN010: well it seems that you all are haveing waaaayy too much fun.. so i am just going to leav it with you and play a bit of dx2. nighty nighty all :-)
Orodreth V: There is no such thing as too much fun.
FINARFIN010: hehe
FINARFIN010 has left the room.
VardaValar1: was on the phone
VardaValar1: D2X - wants to play
VardaValar1: no no - get some work done
VardaValar1: See you guys around
(non-overlapping part of Menelvagor's Transcript):
Eonwe Valar (20:09:00): I'll be heading out as well. Take care all and hf
(20:09:12) Eonwe Valar has left the room.
(20:18:11) VardaValar1 has left the room.
(20:30:03) Arwen V1 has left the room.