Valar Guild

June 19, 2005 Meeting

5pm ESDT (GMT -5)

AIM: Valar Guild Meetingplace
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Say a greeting when you enter on any of these platforms so we'll know you're there!
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Transcript team: Ar-Pharazon-(V), Eonwe-(Valar), Varda-(Valar)

Attending: (14)
    Members: ArathornValar, ArPharazonV, Caranthir-(V)/MoriFinwe, Eonwe Valar (presiding), Finwe-(V)/aranfinwe, FladrifV, GilraenV, Mablung-(V)/DemonicHorde69, FarmerMaggot-(V)/bnetValar, Menelvagor Valar, Orodreth V, Valandil Valar, VardaValar1
    Guest: AuSteinM

Before-meeting
Meeting Begins
Membership
Web
Tolkien

Before-meeting:
You have just entered room "valarguildmeetingplace."
GilraenV has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
ArPharazonV: brb
MoriFinwe: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: heya all
GilraenV: Heya
AuSteinM: I'm guessing its 5PM?
Menelvagor Valar has entered the room.
aranfinwe has entered the room.
aranfinwe: aiya
Eonwe Valar: A few minutes until
MoriFinwe: Its just 11pm over here
AuSteinM: mind if I speak quickly at the start?
Eonwe Valar: got 5 minutes to the hour on my clocks/watches
Eonwe Valar: I'm afraid I don't recognize your name. Could you remind me who you are?
AuSteinM: I'm quite new here
AuSteinM: my name is Matt
AuSteinM: (I usually go by Cronus)
Eonwe Valar: Are you a member of the Valar Guild?
ArPharazonV: ok, WoW closed.. here I am
AuSteinM: my only relation to any of this is 'DoorManBot2'
Eonwe Valar: And who is that?
MoriFinwe: thats what i asked lol
AuSteinM: reading from this page
AuSteinM: http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http%3A//valarguild.org/arathorn/quickaim/quickaim.htm&ei=Pty1QpX3CcSmaJ eD6b0L&sig2=DB6LhbZ5zsMFstTsaaYnEw
AuSteinM: errr
AuSteinM: http://valarguild.org/arathorn/quickaim/quickaim.htm
AuSteinM: its listed for sending offline messages on AIM
ArathornValar: sorry I dont have time to read the feedback... was called away.. I'll read the transcript and take it from there.. have pressing matters sorry
ArathornValar has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, that's listed so we know everyone's screen name, but I suppose messaging people while they're offline could also be done using that page as reference..
AuSteinM: knowing nothing about the guild, I assumed that you guys had been using it to do that
Eonwe Valar: Then what brings you her etoday?
AuSteinM: I was going to point out that while the ScreenName listed is online, it has become popular to the point that AOL doesn't allow it to appear on buddy lists, so you might want to update that with one which does
DemonicHorde69 has entered the room.
DemonicHorde69: hail
Eonwe Valar: Heya.
Eonwe Valar: So, DoormanBot2 is the screenname you're referring to.
AuSteinM: right, which no longer appears on buddy lists
Eonwe Valar: Anyone here use Doormanbot2?
AuSteinM: I only know arathorn does
MoriFinwe: nope not me
DemonicHorde69: sorry i havent been active in like a year very very busy
ArPharazonV: Aiya
AuSteinM: nope, nobody else here seems to
DemonicHorde69: i have to move some furniture for my mom today also but i just wanted to stop by and say hello
Eonwe Valar: Thanks for stopping in and saying hi :} Don't strain yourself moving furniture :}
AuSteinM: well, it seems I jumped to conclusions that because it was listed it would be used
AuSteinM: sorry about that
AuSteinM: out of curiosity, is anybody here going to MIT?
MoriFinwe: nope
ArPharazonV: what's that?
Eonwe Valar: NP, thanks for the information.
ArPharazonV: what's MIT for a thing?
Eonwe Valar: It's in our transcript now, so anyone who reads it will know.
AuSteinM: Thanks for being kind to an outsider
MoriFinwe: its a school
ArPharazonV: well, now that you're here anyway... you a fan of the works of J.R.R. Tolkien?
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
Eonwe Valar: NP there either :}
AuSteinM: most certainly a fan
AuSteinM: but I have not found time to play WoW yet, and I most likely will not
ArPharazonV: it's not just for WoW
AuSteinM: oh?
Eonwe Valar: You're welcome to stay for the meeting and ensuing Tolkien chat.
ArPharazonV: but I think Eonwe here is better suited for explaining more
Eonwe Valar: We play many games, not just World of Warcraft.
Eonwe Valar: World of Warcraft is just our newest.
AuSteinM: Thanks, I think I might, if only for a little while
AuSteinM: which others are most popular?
GilraenV: WoW is the current favourite toy, you might say
ArPharazonV: do you play it, Gilraen?
Eonwe Valar: some of us play WC3, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and you'll likely still find a couple of us willing to play Broodwar and/or Diablo2.
GilraenV: WoW? Only at Gwai's. My computer is dying, I fear
ArPharazonV: ic
ArPharazonV: so no playing on European servers?
GilraenV: not unless I can convince people to get a new computer/win the lottery
ArPharazonV: hahah
Eonwe Valar: Meeting will begin momentarily. Let me just grab a couple more notes and jot down attendance.
GilraenV: ^^
AuSteinM: Camelot? That's the one from Mythic, isn't it?
Eonwe Valar: yeah
MoriFinwe: well maybe i can ask a question about wow before meeting starts
ArPharazonV: I do advise you to win the lottery, Gilraen... it's useful for a lot more than just a new pc :-)
MoriFinwe: im haveing a dilemma between what class to go next between a priest, warlock, and mage. Any input would be helpful.
AuSteinM: I took a class with Mark a couple months ago, they seem very enthusiastic about their game
GilraenV: I intend to try, Phara
Eonwe Valar: ok guys, meeting is beginning
GilraenV: Warlocks are shibby
Eonwe Valar: Take conversations to whispers.
DemonicHorde69: mage
Orodreth V has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Just in time Orodreth :}
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Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo.
Orodreth V: got a question for Varda
Orodreth V: Will she be here?
Eonwe Valar: Membership News:
Orodreth V: Sorry. >.> *quiet*
Eonwe Valar: Varda and Fangorn are out of town on family business. That answers your question, Orodreth :}
Orodreth V: Ok, thanks.
Eonwe Valar: We also have a new member, Valandil. He was tested by Menelvagor. Unfortunately it doesn't seem he made it today.
Eonwe Valar: Any other Member news?
Orodreth V: I may be out of town sometimeover the next 2-3 weeks
Eonwe Valar: Farmer Maggot is at a family reunion but graciously put up the bridge for us.
Orodreth V: Trip to Duluth possibly.
MoriFinwe: I am out of town in the Netherlands :-)
Eonwe Valar: Have fun :}
Orodreth V: Oh, and I get my learner's permit next week. Get off the roads, everyone. ;-)
ArPharazonV: we might meet on Wednesday-evening, as we are both in the same city for a while :-)
Eonwe Valar: Both of you :}
Eonwe Valar: Caranthir and you, Phar?
ArPharazonV: aye
ArPharazonV: in the Netherlands
Eonwe Valar: ok, well that is definitely news then :}
ArPharazonV: won't be long though, just making a short stop in Leiden... and using bus or train to go to another town
ArPharazonV: so we probably won't be able to arrange anything
ArPharazonV: but you never know!
Eonwe Valar: Can one city contain the pride of both Pharazon and a son of F�anor? :}
ArPharazonV: hahah
MoriFinwe: I believe it can
Eonwe Valar: Tune in next week to see :}
Eonwe Valar: Any other Member news?
top

Eonwe Valar: OK, Web News:
Eonwe Valar: New on the Links Page:
Eonwe Valar: An Illustrated Tolkien Book Bibliography
Eonwe Valar: project to list all the British editions of the published writings of JRRT, with their illustrations and how they changed. Eyeing a project to do the American editions also. Of especial interest to collectors. by Neil.
Eonwe Valar: Also on the links page:
Eonwe Valar: Dragons in Art and on the Web
Menelvagor Valar: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: includes Tolkien's dragons. A section from the huge IOS - Ancient History, Angels, Dragons, Mermaids and more . by Timothy Spalding
FladrifV has entered the room.
FladrifV: aiya
ArPharazonV: Aiya
MoriFinwe: Aiya
Eonwe Valar: Any other Web news?
ArPharazonV: well
ArPharazonV: not sure if it's Web or Gaming
Eonwe Valar: Does it involve a web page or a game? :}
Menelvagor Valar: if both, it can be both :-)
ArPharazonV: but Blizzard, together with more specialised companies, released a WoW desktop theme and Media Player-skin this week
ArPharazonV: downloadable from, of course, the web
ArPharazonV: they're pretty cool, I have both running right now
Menelvagor Valar: I'd say that's definitely web :-)
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, yeah, that does seem it can go either way :}
Menelvagor Valar: nothing to do with the game itself
Eonwe Valar: Web easier classified, but it's Blizzard :}
ArPharazonV: need I find the links? for they are, I think, readily available from the official website(s)
Menelvagor Valar: yeah, Bliz IS an institution *grin*
Eonwe Valar: Aye, they're available at the site, so that's good enough.
Eonwe Valar: Thanks for sharing that, Phar.
ArPharazonV: no problem
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Eonwe Valar: On to Gaming News:
Eonwe Valar: LotRO has more screenshots available on their page.
Eonwe Valar: Blizzard released a smaller patch to fix memory issues in patch 1.5.0
Eonwe Valar: for WoW
Menelvagor Valar: that reminds me... the new Bliz insider is out
Eonwe Valar: And in case you missed it in the patch notes or last week, Battlegrounds are out :}
ArPharazonV: actually.. I'd say they're quite 'in' :-)
Menelvagor Valar: so are the 10-man raids to BR, Scholo and Strat
AuSteinM has left the room.
FladrifV: neverbeen able to get in though :-)
AuSteinM has left the room.
bnetValar has left the room.
bnetValar has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Any other Gaming News?
ArPharazonV: small recommendation: new WoW movie is beautiful
ArPharazonV: the 2005 E3 trailer
ArPharazonV: ok, that's it for me
Eonwe Valar: OK, then if there's no more news, it's time for Tolkien Chat :}
Menelvagor Valar: gaming / web: Varda has updated the trainers page on the WoW site and now includes most trainers
ArPharazonV: class? profession? weapon?
ArPharazonV: ah, profession, i see
Menelvagor Valar: professions, aye
Eonwe Valar: Actually, there is one more piece of important news.
Eonwe Valar: Happy Father's Day to all the Fathers in and of the Valar Guild! :}
ArPharazonV: is that today?
Menelvagor Valar: I'm just looking at the site, and noticed that my geocities site is once again down, so I'm going to make some quick updates to include those floating titles you get when you have your mouse over a link for some time, that way....
Eonwe Valar: Yes :}
Menelvagor Valar: people can at least see what link it is, even when geocities is down
AuSteinM has entered the room.
Eonwe Valar: Any other news before we move to Tolkien?
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Eonwe Valar: OK, then Tolkien time.
Eonwe Valar: I hope you all read the Tolkien chat from last week :}
Eonwe Valar: But if not, I'll give a brief synopsis of what we talked about so we can pick up this week.
ArPharazonV: about the gender/importance-discussion, or the topological discussion?
Eonwe Valar: The topic of last week's discussion was the women in LotR.
Eonwe Valar: Their importance in the tale.
ArPharazonV: aye, but in the end, after my departure, it shifted to, among others, the geographical location and size of 'the east'... and I'd be happy to discuss further in like direction :-)
Eonwe Valar: Well, that was After-meeting, so that's a different discussion, Phar.,
ArPharazonV: oh, allright
Eonwe Valar: The discussion we are continuing was adjourned when you left.
Eonwe Valar: Contrary to some's beliefs, the women in LotR are important to the story.
Eonwe Valar: There are plenty of women, not too many, not too few, and each woman enjoys a uniqueness we do not see among the male characters.
Eonwe Valar: While male characters are often compared to other male characters to establish similarities, the one time a female character is compared to another, it rather highlights their differences.
Eonwe Valar: In the women, we also get unique personality types/archetypes/stereotypes, whichever term you prefer.
Eonwe Valar: For example, Lobelia in the beginning of the story is a meedling snoop. Ioreth in Gondor is a gossip.
Menelvagor Valar: (updates on the page done)
Eonwe Valar: Arwen and her relationship with Aragorn gives us an example of romantic love, while with Galadriel we see the idealized Courtly love.
Eonwe Valar: I think the Entwives were among the last mentioned near the discussion's adjournment, as even though they are not physcially in the story, they too give us an example of a feminine personality.
Eonwe Valar: In short, the Entwives never seemed to be satisfied by anything the Ents did.
Eonwe Valar: And that should catch everyone up.
ArPharazonV: btw, are we intending to keep this to lotr? otherwise there are still some 'unique' women from the First and Second Age to mention...
Eonwe Valar: For the purposes of discussion at this very point, it's LotR to examine them, but we will open it to certain other women in other ages shortly.
Eonwe Valar: Our next point of discussion would be Dwarf women. What do we know of them?
ArPharazonV: ok then
ArPharazonV: 'it's the beards'.... hmm.. they have beards in the book, right?
Eonwe Valar: They say they look alike enough to male Dwarves that only another Dwarf can tell the difference. Whether that means beards of not I can't answer. What else do we know?
ArPharazonV: ratio of 1:3, approximately
ArPharazonV: only Dwarf-woman mentioned is Dis, mother of... Kili and Fili, right?
Eonwe Valar: correct.
ArPharazonV: ok, and of that one-third, not everyone wants to marry.... some are content with remaining single, and others are attracted to males they cannot marry for some cause...
ArPharazonV: so therefore the greater part of the males remains single as well
ArPharazonV: and that's about all I can recall right now
Eonwe Valar: Anyone else here?
MoriFinwe: I am
MoriFinwe: lol crickets chirp.....
Eonwe Valar: That pretty much sums up the knowledge we have of Dwarven women.
Eonwe Valar: So, can we discern anything of their personality from this?
MoriFinwe: They are as stubborn as males when it comes to getting the male they want
Eonwe Valar: Good, that's something :}
Eonwe Valar: Now the next leap we take requires a basic assumption that we all understand something.
Eonwe Valar: In Tolkien's world, when someone creates something they put something of themselves into the creation. Can we all agree on this? Examples would be the blades Eol the Dark Elf Forges, Anglachel and Anguirel.
ArPharazonV: aye, I suppose so... with the most famous 'creations', at least
MoriFinwe: Yes such as the Elven Rings that Celebrimbor forges
Eonwe Valar: Morgoth put something of himself in all his creations
ArPharazonV: Sauron and his One Ring is the obvious example as well ;-)
FladrifV: namarie
Eonwe Valar: Aye, perhaps the most obvious :}
ArPharazonV: namarie
ArPharazonV: how about Dwarven knives snapping at the command of destiny...
FladrifV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: Don't remember that, unless you mean Angrist.
Menelvagor Valar: I'm off to bed, heavy weekend. Namarie
MoriFinwe: Namarie
Menelvagor Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: was that the name of the knive Beren used for the Silmaril?
Eonwe Valar: Yes
ArPharazonV: well then, yes that's the one I mean :-)
Eonwe Valar: Back to the subject though, since we can at least agree that the premise is the case in the most important circumstances.
Eonwe Valar: It is interesting that both the Dwarves and the Ents face problems with population growth based on interactions with the opposite gender. It is even more interesting that both of these races have in common in their origin
Eonwe Valar: the same couple: Aul� and Yavanna.
Eonwe Valar: In fact, an entire chapter in the Silmarillion is devoted to the interaction of this couple.
ArPharazonV: perhaps either side knew too little of the gender of the other to make a race where the two genders could interact in an 'effective' way...
GilraenV: I should go. work tomorrow
GilraenV: Namarie
ArPharazonV: Namarie
GilraenV has left the room.
Eonwe Valar: That might be true, but I don't recall the Eagles of Manw� having populations problems :}
ArPharazonV: oh really?
ArPharazonV: and how do you know that? we never heard of any Eagle-females
ArPharazonV: nor do we hear of booming Eagle-populations
Eonwe Valar: aye, which means they held constant at least, because we know they produced new eagles, and we know there's no mention of the Eagles getting fewer in number.
ArPharazonV: besides, there could also be a difference between the knowledge and wisdom of Manwe and Aule/Yavanna
Eonwe Valar: I think the difference is in the relationship.
Eonwe Valar: Manw� tells Yavanna after her first tiff with Aul� that she is not in need of Aul�'s teaching
Eonwe Valar: After the chat in which Yavanna learns of the Ents, she comes back to Aul� to gloat.
Eonwe Valar: "Let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril."
aranfinwe: time for me to depart, namarie all
Eonwe Valar: "Nonetheless they will have need of wood," said Aul�, and he went on with his smith-work.
aranfinwe has left the room.
MoriFinwe: Well i gotta get up early to go to Munster tommorrow so Namarie
Eonwe Valar: Anyoen still here? :}
ArPharazonV: aye, here, but in another conversation
Eonwe Valar: So I guess this one is dead?
MoriFinwe has left the room.
ArPharazonV: ok, back
ArPharazonV: conversation was with MoriFinwe
ArPharazonV: anyway...
ArPharazonV: nope, I've got nothing to add, really...
ArPharazonV: anyone else here?
ArPharazonV: I'm a bit at a loss for words, for some reason
Eonwe Valar: And I thought this topic would cause a little more commotion than this.
ArPharazonV: so, you say... the difference is in the relationship?
Eonwe Valar: That's my theory
Eonwe Valar: We don't see Manw� and Varda interacting in the same manner as Aul� and Yavanna.
ArPharazonV: you mean the difference between Manwe and Aule/Yavanna? or the difference between the Dwarves and Ents? or the difference between males and females of either race?
Eonwe Valar: Well, I drew it back to their most significant Vala/Valie influences
ArPharazonV: well, in that case, aye, Manwe and Varda seem to act a lot more integrated than Aule and Yavanna
Eonwe Valar: Yavanna would be the most significant in the Ents' case, Aul� in the Dwarves.
ArPharazonV: which could account indeed for their lack of knowledge in the relationship between males and females
Eonwe Valar: And the relationship between Aul� and Yavanna affected the personailty of both.
ArPharazonV: after all, it's not like Aule and Yavanna had to deal with 'population-issues' in their own relationship...
Eonwe Valar: Eru said he would change nothing about the Dwarves, leaving them exactly as Aul� designed them, though he obviously, being Eru, knew where it was heading.
ArPharazonV: heh
ArPharazonV: obviously
ArPharazonV: reminds me of that comic Errant Story, this stuff about Dwarf-populations... in that world, the Dwarves are a failed creation, and uncapable of reproducing, although they do not age...
ArPharazonV: it was only a matter of time before they all disappeared
Eonwe Valar: haven't read that.
ArPharazonV: meh, not important
ArPharazonV: just said it reminded me of it
ArPharazonV: it's a world where there was a large war between Elves and Half-Elves, until both races were devastated, and the Elves closed themselves in their remaining capital.... giving the remaining human race 3000 years to basically take ove
ArPharazonV: r
Eonwe Valar: Well, I guess that's it of this topic. If no one is willing to continue or has anything they'd like to add, we can move to aftermeeting and talk about the size of the East.
ArPharazonV: the story's about a young half-elf, whose father was an Elven visitor in town, and she's on a quest to became a powerful sorceress for a high-school project..
ArPharazonV: but, of course, the Elves are still bent on destroying every half-elf they find
Eonwe Valar: Oh sure, because becoming a sorceress is the most natural high-school project to choose.
ArPharazonV: heh... for that you should reach the first chapter of the comic
ArPharazonV: it was a wizards/sorcerers-school, and because this girl, Meji, is totally unprepared for this, the final school-project, she has chosen to focus on an ancient rule
ArPharazonV: that said that if the student is capable of defeating all the professors, she automatically graduates with honor
Eonwe Valar: sounds like something I'd see in an anime.
ArPharazonV: so she told the professors that would be her goal for the final project, and now she has three months to do it
ArPharazonV: now, she's found an old book about an excavation, which uncovered details of a story
ArPharazonV: a creation myth, about old gods creating all the races etc, and then hiding themselves away in chambers
ArPharazonV: now, like any creation myth, that story's quite unlikely, but as other religions in that world, the gods might as well be magic creations, of which the power could be untapped to become god-like yourself... if you're powerful enough
ArPharazonV: so, with the help of that book, the girl is now searching for the chambers, to tap into the power of a god (the exact term for it I can't remember right now)
Eonwe Valar: *cough* Illidan *cough* Arthas *cough*
ArPharazonV: which has brought her many adventures, in a scale far grander than a mere high-school project...
ArPharazonV: as she has become involved in the ancient Elf-Halfelf-war, as well as many other deadly feuds
ArPharazonV: including the war between the Ensigerum and the Gewehr, two assassin-societies
ArPharazonV: it's a web-comic, btw
ArPharazonV: we discussed web-comics a few weeks ago in the meeting, and this was mentioned as well
Eonwe Valar: That would be why it sounds familiar.
ArPharazonV: I can give you the link, if you like
ArPharazonV: it's my favorite web-comic, and that's saying a lot.. I read many :-)
Eonwe Valar: That's ok :}
ArPharazonV: http://www.errantstory.com/
Eonwe Valar: Well,..
Eonwe Valar: *Bangs Gavel*
Eonwe Valar: Meeting Adjourned :}
ArPharazonV: it's mostly in black and white, although the first few 'years' of episodes have links to colored pages
ArPharazonV: I suggest a somewhat 'mature' rating... it's not porn or anything, but I still think it's a good idea to warn you :-)
ArPharazonV: not to let young children read it
Eonwe Valar: Thanks for the warning.
ArPharazonV: but, to my opinion, the story's great... at least the most 'epic' webcomic I've seen so far
VardaValar1 has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: Aiya
VardaValar1: Aiya
ArPharazonV: do you have anything to say about the gender-problems within the Dwarven race and the Entish race? ;-)
VardaValar1: They had plenty
ArPharazonV: we 'tracked back' to the relationship between Aule and Yavanna
VardaValar1: Dwarves had only a few women, not all of whom wished to marry
VardaValar1: And those beards... ;-)
ArPharazonV: 'it's the beards'... a quote I won't forget in a long time... even though it was the movie
Eonwe Valar: heya Varda :}
VardaValar1: Ents and Entwives drifted apart in interest and lost track of each other after the disaster of the Brown Lands
Eonwe Valar: Glad to see you made it :}
VardaValar1: But he liked "little hairy women" apparently ;-)
VardaValar1: Thanks, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: heheh
VardaValar1: Hail to AuSteinM
VardaValar1: I still like to think the Entwives were by the Shire. It was to the West :-)
ArPharazonV: he came in to warn us about something to do with our QuickAim-list, and considering he's a Tolkien-fan, we had him stick around during the meeting.... doubt he's still spiritually present here, though...
ArPharazonV: hasn't said anything in a long while
VardaValar1: Another afk guy
Eonwe Valar: His afk message says he went to a concert for father's day.
VardaValar1: What warning?
VardaValar1: A lovely reason
VardaValar1: We are enjoying Eowyn's homemade cupcakes for Father's Day :-)
ArPharazonV: something with... what was it... I'm not that into aim-details, but it had to do with the offline messages and DoorManBot2
ArPharazonV: you can read it in the transcript, but we've established that very few people here use it, besides Arathorn
VardaValar1: I don't remember using offline messages. Prefer email
VardaValar1: Good to hear
ArPharazonV: and MoriFinwe and I have decided to meet on Wednesday ;-)
VardaValar1: Nice of him to warn us
VardaValar1: Meet for what?
Eonwe Valar: They're meeting in person :}
ArPharazonV: he's on holiday in the Netherlands or something, and we happen to be in the same city for a short time
VardaValar1: Woot!
VardaValar1: That's great!
ArPharazonV: so with a timeframe of about half an hour, we decided to meet in person
VardaValar1: Tight timing. Good luck!
ArPharazonV: we established location, and I gave him my mobilephone-number
VardaValar1: Does he have one too?
VardaValar1: New meaning to phone tag :-)
ArPharazonV: he says he should be able to reach me
ArPharazonV: with the phone of one of his aunts
VardaValar1: Nicely planned :-)
ArPharazonV: so it should all work out fine
VardaValar1: Such meetings tend to be great fun :-)
VardaValar1: It's meeting an old friend you've never seen
ArPharazonV: I invited him to come with me to the style-dancing-night, but he's not that much into dancing... and I guess his evenings are booked with plans ;-)
ArPharazonV: indeed
ArPharazonV: should be fun
VardaValar1: So, just us three here?
ArPharazonV: not afk, aye
VardaValar1: Ulmo is on WoW but not responding, says Fangorn
ArPharazonV: perhaps if he's online again before Wednesday, I can send him my picture... so he can recognize me
ArPharazonV: but he wasn't sure about that
ArPharazonV: so my plan might be too late :-)
VardaValar1: Fangorn is very happy. The kids made up fancy coupons that entitle him to bump anyone from WoW even if their time is not up. With 5 of us on one comp, that's a big deal :-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye :}
ArPharazonV: hahah
VardaValar1: Send it anyway : )
ArPharazonV: aye, I'll look for his email-adress
VardaValar1: We should have it on the site, np
ArPharazonV: probably findible on the guild-site, aye
VardaValar1: If not, I've got it
DemonicHorde69 has left the room.
ArPharazonV: aye, found it
VardaValar1: Yay!
ArPharazonV: will send the pic tomorrow
VardaValar1: Is anyone live here besides us three? Orodreth?
ArPharazonV: will probably take a while to find it... although it should be somewhere on my pc
VardaValar1: Farmer?
Eonwe Valar: he set the bridge up but that's it
ArPharazonV: not sure who's in Sigmachat, though
VardaValar1: Father's Day pulls us all off
Eonwe Valar: he's at a family reunion
VardaValar1: I need to jump into that
Eonwe Valar: used his uncle's computer
VardaValar1: cool!
VardaValar1: What did you come up with on the Aule/Yavanna dwarf connection?
ArPharazonV: wait... the bridge isn't working in Sigma
Eonwe Valar: It's a relationship problem
ArPharazonV: just me
Eonwe Valar: short and not-so-sweet
ArPharazonV: we noticed that each of their 'own' races had population-issues because of gender-problems
Eonwe Valar: As you'll recall, there's an entire chapter dedicated to an example interaction between Aule and Yavanna in the SIlmarillion.
VardaValar1: I like that chapter : )
ArPharazonV: aye, me too, explains a lot
VardaValar1: One of the few where we see the Valar personally
ArPharazonV: about Ents, Eagles, Dwarves
ArPharazonV: and of course Valar-personalities :-)
Eonwe Valar: Yavanna was mad because Aul� apparently doesn't tell her everything, upon hearing about the Eruhini from Aul�, she asks Manw�, who tells her she has no need of Aul�'s teaching, she learns of the Ents, then goes to Aul� to gloat.
ArPharazonV: lack of communication... could be a foundation for the racial issues
Eonwe Valar: For an Oromesque version of the chapter :}
VardaValar1: heheh
ArPharazonV: they understood the opposite gender too little perhaps, in my idea, to create a fully 'effective' race
VardaValar1: There were no elves or men yet, for they to fully comprehend Eru's design
ArPharazonV: aye, but we did not see such issues with the Eagles for example
Eonwe Valar: Since when one creates, they put something of themself into their creation, the inherent relationship problems were there in both the Ents and the Dwarves (Eru made no changes from Aul�'s design of Dwarves, as you also recall)
VardaValar1: They were more like birds that were already understood the way animals were
VardaValar1: The original dwarves already had mates
ArPharazonV: aye, that's true
VardaValar1: I see no one else in Sigma Chat
ArPharazonV: aye, it was just me, so I left again
VardaValar1: Now it's just me ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Aye, but later, Dwarves had to find their own. Not all women would marry for one reason or another, and same with the men.
VardaValar1: You're right. No bridge
VardaValar1: And there were so few of the women
ArPharazonV: and now it's the both of us
Eonwe Valar: We've been over the Ent issue a couple of times, so no need to explain their problems.
VardaValar1: I wonder why they were so low on the lady dwarf number
Eonwe Valar: They would've had more women if they had more children :}
ArPharazonV: well, that may not be true
VardaValar1: They seemed to have far more males
ArPharazonV: after all, normally it's 50/50, aye
VardaValar1: The proportion is odd
ArPharazonV: so if the lack of children is the cause for the lack of women
ArPharazonV: there should also be a lack of men
VardaValar1: Males tend to be lower in number as they age, due to more dangerous occupations, war
ArPharazonV: and yet, while this is not the case with the females, who were safe from these things
Eonwe Valar: might be from cave-ins and such. Women didn't do much travelling except at need.
ArPharazonV: they outnumber the women by quite a bit
ArPharazonV: heh
VardaValar1: They would be upset to hear the insinuation of poor worksmanship : )
ArPharazonV: would they? or their males?
Eonwe Valar: the proportion of women to men would've likely balanced out as the birthrate grew
VardaValar1: Valandil is on
ArPharazonV: invite him then :-)
Valandil Valar has entered the room.
VardaValar1: I did
VardaValar1: Aiya Valandil : )
ArPharazonV: Aiya!
Valandil Valar: aiya everyone
VardaValar1: We were just discussing the problem for dwarves, of having too few women
VardaValar1: We were speculating as to why
Valandil Valar: ok
VardaValar1: We have little to go on
Eonwe Valar: grettings Valandil and welcome to the Valar Guild.
ArPharazonV: indeed, welcome
VardaValar1: Glad to see you could drop by :-)
Valandil Valar: greatings eonwe
VardaValar1: It started two hours ago, if that helps with the time zone confusion
VardaValar1: You are in Belgium?
Valandil Valar: do u use quenia or sindarin more in this group ?
ArPharazonV: ok, let me be the first to spell it right: Greetings, Valandil! Welcome to the gang!
Eonwe Valar: *greetings
VardaValar1: We use both
Valandil Valar: ok
VardaValar1: Aiya and Namarie are the most commonly used words : )
ArPharazonV: but we mostly speak in English :-)
Eonwe Valar: And sometimes varying dialects :}
VardaValar1: You'll pick them up quickly
Valandil Valar: u have to tolerate my poor english ;-)
Eonwe Valar: Elen Sila Lumenn Omentielvo :}
Valandil Valar: dialects ?
VardaValar1: Ah, and that one every Sunday, aye : )
ArPharazonV: in that case, you'll have to tolerate my poorer Elvish... and don't worry, English isn't my first language either :-)
Eonwe Valar: sort of a joke. of example, there are about 3 different ways to spell the last word in that phrase Ijust cited :}
Valandil Valar: i know i think u r dutch
Eonwe Valar: of=for
VardaValar1: We have many for whom English is not their first language. Mine is Texas ;-)
VardaValar1: *first
ArPharazonV: ..you got that from my English? or did you hear it somewhere else?
Valandil Valar: what do u think ? :-)
VardaValar1: I bet he heard it from Menelvagor : )
ArPharazonV: I think Menel told you...
Valandil Valar: true
VardaValar1: He is usually here for meetings
Valandil Valar: and texas is a fine place
VardaValar1: This is Father's Day, so the turnout was low
Eonwe Valar: Menelvagor was here earlier
ArPharazonV: indeed, when did he leave?
VardaValar1: Thank you, from Eonwe and from my family, for the Texas comment
Eonwe Valar: had to go, it was a long weekend for him I believe he said.
Valandil Valar: where in texas (because that si about 3 times the size of belgium)
Eonwe Valar: I live in North Texas
VardaValar1: I'm from north of Houston, Space City
VardaValar1: Eonwe is from Dallas, north of us
Valandil Valar: ah ok, we stayed with some friends in Houston
Valandil Valar: and then we drove around for a few days
VardaValar1: Hope it was not summertime :-)
Valandil Valar: January and the weather was perfect
VardaValar1: Wonderful : )
Valandil Valar: but i seem to be interupting ur discussion
Valandil Valar: my appologies
VardaValar1: Not at all
VardaValar1: We were about done
ArPharazonV: or maybe you have something to contribute!
Valandil Valar: and how about the dwarf women ?
VardaValar1: But we would like to hear your comments
VardaValar1: Could we have a copy/paste of the original topic?
Valandil Valar: i only know that aule made the seven fathers, but where the women came from, ...
Valandil Valar: women were not tolkiens strongpoint
VardaValar1: He also made the mothers
VardaValar1: True : )
Eonwe Valar: The topic is generally the same from last week, I just gave a synopsis of last week at the beginning of TOlkien Chat.
Eonwe Valar: Actually, my argument is there are plenty of women in LotR :}
ArPharazonV: the current sub-topic was dwarven women... what do we know?
Eonwe Valar: The women in LotR are unique in a way Tolkien does not grant to the male characters.
VardaValar1: We know there were only a few, only Dis was named, and they were bearded, rarely came out where other races saw them
Valandil Valar: there r that is true
Valandil Valar: true
VardaValar1: Tolkien tended to place women on a pedestal, perhaps because of his feelings for his own Edith
Valandil Valar: and his mother ?
Eonwe Valar: I wouldn't say they were all on a pedastal :}
ArPharazonV: ahem... we guess they were bearded...
VardaValar1: Not all : )
ArPharazonV: but since only a Dwarf can see the difference, I'd say that implies beards
VardaValar1: I remember reading it. It is not just the movies
Eonwe Valar: we get a nice variety of female personalities, none exactly alike.
Valandil Valar: it s in the appendices
VardaValar1: Lobelia, Ioreth, Galadriel, Eowyn
VardaValar1: Thanks Valandil : )
ArPharazonV: you read they literally had beards? hmm... can't recall that
Eonwe Valar: Whereas the men can be compared as a basis for understanding, the women cannot.
VardaValar1: Yes, it was written
Valandil Valar: yes
ArPharazonV: meh... never mind then
Eonwe Valar: The one comparison made between two women in LotR rather shows how different they are.
Valandil Valar: explain please
ArPharazonV: Arwen and Galadriel... the morning and the night, right?
VardaValar1: Galadriel and Arwen, the morning and the night, the beginning and the ending
Eonwe Valar: The comparison made between Arwen and Galadriel.
Valandil Valar: and arwen and Luthien ?
VardaValar1: With the destruction of the Ring and the crowning of the black-haired Arwen, even night could be loved
VardaValar1: Aye
VardaValar1: As if Luthien had come again
Eonwe Valar: The stories of Arwen and Luthien are in some ways the same story.
Valandil Valar: they share the same faith, but luthien is the beginning and arwen the end (blond and black haired)
ArPharazonV: luthien was black-haired also
VardaValar1: Luthien is blonde? Where is that?
Eonwe Valar: Luthien had dark hair as I recall.
Valandil Valar: really, i was conviced that i read somewhere that she was blond
Valandil Valar: but i could be mistaken
VardaValar1: We could too
Eonwe Valar: got my Sil right by me, I could check :}
VardaValar1: I thought Idril was black-haired, until it was shown that she had blonde
VardaValar1: Apparently Elenwe was blonde
Eonwe Valar: hmm now that would be another I'd have to check, Varda.
VardaValar1: We will keep you busy page-flipping : )
VardaValar1: We can do a bit of book search as well
VardaValar1: *reaching over tall Fangorn to the shelf*
Eonwe Valar: "her hair was Dark as the shadows of twilight."
Eonwe Valar: Luthien
VardaValar1: Pretty. What chapter?
Eonwe Valar: Of Beren and Luthien of course :}
VardaValar1: That works better. Makes it more likely that Aragorn would think he saw a vision of Luthien when he saw Arwen
VardaValar1: okies
Valandil Valar: that is true
ArPharazonV: besides, wasn't Arwen supposed to be stated as almost identical to Luthien? So that people thought she was Luthien reborn?
ArPharazonV: anyway, I'm interested in Idril's blond hair... where does it say that?
VardaValar1: I found Idril
Eonwe Valar: There's nothing about her hair in "Of Maeglin" so don't worry about trying there.
VardaValar1: "Of the Noldor in Beleriand"
VardaValar1: Near the early part, about Turgon just before switching to Finrod
ArPharazonV: ah, yes, found it
ArPharazonV: "whose hair was as the gold of Laurelin before the coming of Melkor"
Eonwe Valar: Hmm, there were Sindar among the People Turgon brought into Gondolin.
VardaValar1: 'But fairer than all the wonders of Gondolin was Idril, Turgon's daughter, she that was called Celebrindal, the Silver-foot, whose hair was as the gold of Laurelin before the coming of Melkor.
Eonwe Valar: ok, found it,... yep, Idril's hair was gold.
ArPharazonV: page 145 in my book, but it'll differ :-)
Eonwe Valar: 126 Houghton MIfflin Hardback :}
VardaValar1: I read in Letters I think that Glorfindel was going to be a Sindarin prince, until JRRT got hit with the first Glorfindel problem and made him a Noldo.
ArPharazonV: Harper Collins.. paperback edition 1999
VardaValar1: p. 151 paperback Sil Houghton-Mifflin]
Valandil Valar: glorfindel is a mistery to me
VardaValar1: The re-born Glorfindel
ArPharazonV: the Letters are still a mystery to me :-)
Eonwe Valar: We've got some good papers on him in the Encyclopedia
Valandil Valar: how come he dies in the Sill and meets the fellowship
Valandil Valar: or is that another one ?
ArPharazonV: could be the same one
Eonwe Valar: Tolkien was didicated to making the two one and the same, so they're the same Glorfindel.
VardaValar1: Glorfindel was sent back from Mandos
Eonwe Valar: *dedicated
VardaValar1: He came to help Elrond and stayed with him
ArPharazonV: was released to Mandos, and came to ME... some theories even stated he came with Gandalf
Valandil Valar: ah, thenhe is the same that came to the rescue on the white horse Asphaloth
VardaValar1: Asfaloth in English versions, right
Eonwe Valar: I believe it says he came wit hthe BLue Wizards in those theories, but that may be a different one than what I'm thinking of.
VardaValar1: It makes sense when you use the version where he came to help Elrond
ArPharazonV: I think I even read in UT recently that he was a friend of Olorin in Valinor... but not sure about the source
Eonwe Valar: He would've had to come in the Second Age, and some of the versions of the Blue Wizards tales say they came in the Second Age.
VardaValar1: Olorin got around, and he might have been aware of his coming importance in Middle-earth
ArPharazonV: ah, those stories I have not read
Eonwe Valar: They're in HoME, where all the fun stories like that can be found :}
VardaValar1: That's the fun of meetings. You get to pick up all these cool extras : )
ArPharazonV: hmm... part 12?
Eonwe Valar: Quite likely, let me check
Eonwe Valar: I've got HoME on a shelf right next to my computer, so I don't even have to get up :}
ArPharazonV: I have part 12 on a shelf right next to me :-)
Valandil Valar: i have read them all, and forgot most of them, must do some rereading
VardaValar1: I used to but it turned into the WoW computer so I have to go around someone now :-) Or they hand it over
ArPharazonV: ah, you're right!
VardaValar1: We keep nudging each other, helps memory
VardaValar1: Note we are all digging into the books, although we've read them multiple times
Eonwe Valar: yep, book 12
ArPharazonV: "The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age".
Eonwe Valar: 385 in my Hardback, while Iassume is the only version out of book 12
Eonwe Valar: while=which
ArPharazonV: sorry... 384 here :-)
VardaValar1: I have only seen it in hardback, Morgoth's Ring, or I'd have it already
ArPharazonV: 'This paperback edition 2002'
Eonwe Valar: well, 384-385 is across what it spans
ArPharazonV: once again, Harper Collins
Eonwe Valar: Yay I got a 1996 version, which means it might be a first print :}
ArPharazonV: aye, 1996 was the first year
VardaValar1: Check the title page to see if it mentions earlier editions
ArPharazonV: first published in paperback by HC in 1997
ArPharazonV: first published in Great Britain by HC 1996
Eonwe Valar: Mine is Houghton Mifflin. Trying to make all mine match with the first *true* publisher :}
ArPharazonV: Copyright....and C.R. Tolkien 1996
ArPharazonV: all my Tolkien-books are HC
VardaValar1: Congratulations!
ArPharazonV: hm?
Eonwe Valar: I've got some old Ballantine paperbacks of LotR.
VardaValar1: first edition
Eonwe Valar: my Hardbacks are all Houghton Mifflin.
ArPharazonV: I don't have any hardbacks...
Valandil Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: all paperback
VardaValar1: You have Morgoth's Ring in paperback?!!
Eonwe Valar: Hmm think we got on the subject of our book publishers and chased Valandil off :}
ArPharazonV: although, I'm not sure what my BoLT 2 would fall under...
Valandil Valar has entered the room.
ArPharazonV: yes, I do... well, at least the same 'back' as my paperbacks
Eonwe Valar: How'd you manage that?
VardaValar1: Welcome back
Valandil Valar: my computer went down
Eonwe Valar: I only got up to 9 in paperback, which drove me to finally start collecting the hardbacks.
ArPharazonV: just bought the whole series, ordered it from a famous book-company in the Netherlands
Eonwe Valar: WB Valandil
ArPharazonV: Aiyata
Valandil Valar: welke is dat ?
ArPharazonV: de Kler
ArPharazonV: mostly used for schoolbooks, but also in other matters of literature they're quite handy
ArPharazonV: got all my tolkien-books from the same place
Valandil Valar: don't know that one
Eonwe Valar: Well, lucky you Phar :}
ArPharazonV: heheh... never knew they were so rare
VardaValar1: Just in our area, maybe
ArPharazonV: I won 300 euros... or guilders... not sure anymore... with a few weeks of Bingo on vacation
VardaValar1: They are snapped up in a hurry
VardaValar1: Congrats : )
ArPharazonV: so that's when I started to collect Tolkien
Valandil Valar: how do u decide on toppics here ?
VardaValar1: We ask for topics at the start of the Tolkien chat
ArPharazonV: spent the entire amount on Tolkien-books.. before that I had to borrow them from libraries
VardaValar1: Everyone instant messages the chairman/woman with their topics
VardaValar1: Then we try to take them in a logical order
VardaValar1: If we don't finish, we run to the next meeting as we did this time
ArPharazonV: so now I have 18 books... and since HoME part 12, and the last of the money, my purchase has come to a grinding halt...
ArPharazonV: but I'm still wanting to buy Letters, Tom Bombadil, Pictures, etc... one day!
VardaValar1: I recommend Letters
VardaValar1: Mow lawns, shovel snow : )
Eonwe Valar: I recommend Atlas of Middle-Earth, if you don't have it
Eonwe Valar: But I think you do, right Phar?
ArPharazonV: yes, I want that one too
ArPharazonV: I don't have it
ArPharazonV: I also want Journeys of Frodo
Eonwe Valar: Menelvagor was getting jealous last meeting when I was telling him all that's in it :}
VardaValar1: I have both Atlas and Letters. I would rather have Letters, although both are wonderful
ArPharazonV: aye, I read that, Eonwe :-)
VardaValar1: Menel is a good kidder too : )
Valandil Valar: how long r these meetings usually ?
VardaValar1: Valandil, we are no longer in a formal meeting. More like an After-chat, so if you need to go to bed, go ahead
VardaValar1: The business meeting should not run over 30 minutes
VardaValar1: The Tolkien chat is afterwards, and depends on who is there
Valandil Valar: ok
VardaValar1: Some come later than others
Valandil Valar: what is the business meeting ?
Valandil Valar: sorry to ask so much questions
Eonwe Valar: We give membership news, like new members :}
Eonwe Valar: give new members a chance to say a bit about themselves
ArPharazonV: mostly providing and spreading relevant and interesting news, in an orderly fashion
Eonwe Valar: also what's going on with other members
Valandil Valar: so i missed my own inaugurment
ArPharazonV: yes, you did :-)
VardaValar1: Membership, Web, Gaming, other
VardaValar1: no
ArPharazonV: but don't worry, we'll do it next time
VardaValar1: You can do it next time :-)
Eonwe Valar: Web news, mostly related to our pages but also related to other pages at times, then gamign news, which is mostly involving the games we play.
Valandil Valar: :-)
VardaValar1: We sometimes catch people for their "few words" a month later ;-)
ArPharazonV: considering those definitions, Eonwe
ArPharazonV: my news would definitely have been gaming :-)
Valandil Valar: u know they r starting a group on arathor (kings of the noldor)
VardaValar1: Who? WoW in Europe?
Valandil Valar: yep
ArPharazonV: most of the European members who play WoW now play at Argent Dawn mostly, though
VardaValar1: Can't reach it
Valandil Valar: i know
ArPharazonV: though I know MoriFinwe plays in Arathor too... well, at least I think he said so
Valandil Valar: finwe is his name yes
Eonwe Valar: We're hoping BLizzard will eventually give the Europe guys a chance to join us on Lothar.
Valandil Valar: and his halfbrother Fingolfin
ArPharazonV: we're talking about MoriFinwe... Caranthir :-)
ArPharazonV: one of the sons of Feanor
VardaValar1: Caranthir played on Whisperwind server
VardaValar1: Morifinwe is Caranthir
Eonwe Valar: heh, I have a friend who plays in US Whisperwind
Valandil Valar: ah ok, the guy i met was called finwe
ArPharazonV: hmm... could also just have been that he thought I was playing on Arathor... hmm.... don't remember the details
VardaValar1: Aran Finwe means King Finwe and he comes here often
Eonwe Valar: He was just here today at the meeting :}
VardaValar1: He has to be afk most of the time and scrolls, since he is at work at this time of day
VardaValar1: People move all across many servers : )
Eonwe Valar: afk for a quick sec
ArPharazonV: but anyway, me, Fladrif, and Menelvagor play in Argent Dawn, in the same Guild
ArPharazonV: of which Menel just happens to be leader right now :-)
VardaValar1: We try to find ways to get together
Valandil Valar: this guy was not a tolkien geek (as he told me) but was unaware of this guild
VardaValar1: Our people have a tendency to rise to the tops
Valandil Valar: so he told me
Eonwe Valar: it's good the European guild members are able to play together if not with the US/Canadian guys
VardaValar1: We don't have a formal branch in Europe
ArPharazonV: really? I like power, but I resent responsibility... so I think I'll stay low for a while :-)
VardaValar1: They were hoping to come to the US
VardaValar1: Elatan made it
Valandil Valar: how ?
ArPharazonV: aye, with an American version, I think...
VardaValar1: Blizzard said they would come up with a way
VardaValar1: Yes
ArPharazonV: or Australian or something
VardaValar1: Elatan uses an international credit card with a US CD
VardaValar1: New Zealan
VardaValar1: New Zealand
ArPharazonV: ah, was close :-)
Valandil Valar: ah like that
VardaValar1: Anyway, we come and go from the meeting as needed
VardaValar1: We check the transcript to see if we missed something or need to email something in, maybe for the News
VardaValar1: and we can use the Forum
ArPharazonV: though most remain in the meeting from beginning to end, and just go afk :-)
Valandil Valar: that's good
VardaValar1: They can afk and scroll back
VardaValar1: jump in with a comment late : )
VardaValar1: The other discussion was on Ents and Entwives
VardaValar1: It was a discussion on relationships
VardaValar1: for ents and for dwarves
ArPharazonV: gender-relationships, mostly..
VardaValar1: When it was introduced, most were afk or not arrived yet as it is Father's Day
VardaValar1: so the talk actually got started late, I believe
ArPharazonV: do you think more will come still, Varda?
VardaValar1: Finarfin
VardaValar1: He comes very late, after work
ArPharazonV: ok
Valandil Valar: the whole tolkien world is rather asexual i think
ArPharazonV: no wonder I don't see him that often anymore...
VardaValar1: I would say more into courtly love
Valandil Valar: that is true, we call it 'hoofse liefde'
ArPharazonV: we do?
Valandil Valar: yep
Valandil Valar: the standard in medieval times
Valandil Valar: knight and there ladies
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: That is an excellent translation then
VardaValar1: Arwen and Aragorn were very much like that
ArPharazonV: well, it is a literal translation indeed
Valandil Valar: it is yes
ArPharazonV: seeing as court and 'hof' mean exactly the same thing
ArPharazonV: both in medieval terms, and in terms of the justice-system :-)
Valandil Valar: yep
VardaValar1: I think we're all getting tired
VardaValar1: Fangorn and I just came in from an eleven hour drive
ArPharazonV: actually, I'm trying to catch up again with the earlier chapters of Errant Story, so I'm a little absent...
VardaValar1: Fingers are trying to go dyslexic
VardaValar1: I think I'll go try to catch up on this mass of guild mail. Scary looking : )
VardaValar1: Namarie!
ArPharazonV: ok! you'll be getting a new one soon!
Valandil Valar: can i ask one last question ?
VardaValar1: Good to hear, Phar : )
VardaValar1: Sure
VardaValar1: Fire away
VardaValar1: A dozen if you like : )
Valandil Valar: i had the impression that namarie ment 'Farewell'
VardaValar1: Yes
VardaValar1: It does
VardaValar1: I was trying to leave ;-)
Valandil Valar: so why use it in this context ?
VardaValar1: Because I was trying to leave so I said farewell
VardaValar1: That is a goodbye
ArPharazonV: hah! I knew I wasn't the only one who knew 'farewell' as a permanent goodbye...
Valandil Valar: farewell is what u say when u never are going to see the other person again
VardaValar1: I probably never will see you ;-)
ArPharazonV: heh
Valandil Valar: u never know
ArPharazonV: but you know what we mean, Varda... Farewell is mostly seen as permanent
Valandil Valar: and still then, ... we will probably meet here again
VardaValar1: not just permanent
VardaValar1: It can be used that way
ArPharazonV: as in 'probably never speak, see, or communicate in any way ever again, unless chance occurs'
Valandil Valar: it is what Galadriel says to Aragorn, we will never meet again, Namarie
VardaValar1: I am looking in the dictionary
VardaValar1: It is true, farewell is usually used that way
VardaValar1: It can also be used as a goodbye
ArPharazonV: so therefore it is a little misleading in this case...
Valandil Valar: it is
VardaValar1: Dictionary says it can be either way
ArPharazonV: even though not intentionally, and not absolutely
VardaValar1: Do you have a word that would be better? We are always open to suggestions
Valandil Valar: the translation in dutch is always used in that way
ArPharazonV: it's what I wondered myself from the first moment I knew what Namarie meant...
ArPharazonV: yet literally, 'fare well' or 'vaar wel' is not permament
ArPharazonV: it just means 'I hope things go right for you/with you' or something alike
VardaValar1: This Webster's Dictionary shows that it can be used either way. We figure which way by context.
VardaValar1: Fare you well
ArPharazonV: indeed
Valandil Valar: it is, it is like u say.U use it when U think u will never meet that person again, unless chance ...
ArPharazonV: so in this case, we use it as the second meaning, and not permanent
VardaValar1: I wish your continued well-being after my departure
ArPharazonV: indeed
VardaValar1: Let's do hope it means temporary : )
ArPharazonV: not meaning I'm leaving permanently
ArPharazonV: heheh...
ArPharazonV: this time, it's not permanently unless chance occurs
ArPharazonV: it's temporary unless chance occurs ;-)
Valandil Valar: ok
Eonwe Valar: Back, sorry about that. I had to open a giant can of olives for a giant pot of spaghetti sauce. That works out though, because I like olives :}
VardaValar1: Sounds good : )
VardaValar1: Since it can be used either way, we just take it by context
ArPharazonV: so just keep that in mind, and accept, like me, that we can't do anything about it...
VardaValar1: We can!
ArPharazonV: and you'll eventually be fine with Namarie :-)
VardaValar1: Find a better word
ArPharazonV: hah
VardaValar1: Or use my Webster's Dictionary!
ArPharazonV: such as?
VardaValar1: You find it
VardaValar1: I'm fine with Namarie
ArPharazonV: in Elvish, right?
VardaValar1: We also have various others, actually
ArPharazonV: do we even have any Elvish goodbye-scenes? except Aragorn/Galadriel?
VardaValar1: But they are time zone sensitive
Valandil Valar: my horse only understands sindarin
VardaValar1: That is a problem
ArPharazonV: heheh... goodnight..
VardaValar1: If I say Good Afternoon, but it is night or morning for you
ArPharazonV: mara lome
VardaValar1: it messes up
ArPharazonV: yes, I remember using that one in the past here
VardaValar1: Namarie is not time-sensitive
Valandil Valar: night here
ArPharazonV: indeed, past 2 am already :-)
ArPharazonV: so if I were to say goodbye to you, Valandil, or you to me, Mara Lom� would be quite appropriate :-)
Valandil Valar: lol
VardaValar1: You can get phrases like this from our Languages page on the Encyc
VardaValar1: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/lang/TolkienLangs.htm
VardaValar1: or directly here
ArPharazonV: we need something for 'see you later' in Elvish...
VardaValar1: Irmo is fond of Quenya, so you can use:
VardaValar1: http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/lang/IrmoElvish.htm
Valandil Valar: r none of u member of the council of elrond ?
ArPharazonV: hey! how about Mara Mesta?
ArPharazonV: or Mara mesta?
VardaValar1: Valiroim� for happy hunting is good
ArPharazonV: 'Goodbye' isn't time-restricted, right?
Eonwe Valar: Council of Elrond?
Eonwe Valar: Just caught up with the Namari� discussion btw :}
VardaValar1: What about Council of Elrond?
VardaValar1: Oh, yes, we have some
Valandil Valar: it's a website on tolkien
VardaValar1: Just that we are happy with our own people
VardaValar1: We have a link to it on our Links page also
Valandil Valar: there u find a course in sindarin and quenia
VardaValar1: Have you looked at our Lore Book for Quenya?
VardaValar1: Or at the Ardalambion's course?
Valandil Valar: yes
VardaValar1: Are you a member of Council of Elrond?
Valandil Valar: yes
VardaValar1: ahh
ArPharazonV: muhahaha... inside information..
Valandil Valar: but not very active
VardaValar1: How are you doing with the course?
ArPharazonV: spionage time!
VardaValar1: Phar, we have others who are members too
ArPharazonV: oh, allright :-)
VardaValar1: We have people scattered all over
Valandil Valar: i just use sindarin to train my horse
VardaValar1: Tolkien Society also
ArPharazonV: so I guess we have a 'friendly reputation' with them? ;-)
VardaValar1: A dog trainer asked me for some words too
VardaValar1: I like Sindarin, as it is used heavily in LotR
Valandil Valar: yep
Valandil Valar: i decided to use sindarin, although i looked at quenya first
VardaValar1: I was considering working up a Sindarin page to run alongside the Quenya role-playing Irmo set up
ArPharazonV: I'm not sure... my interests have never really been in the languages... they're interesting, sure, but still, my focus has always been on the story primarily
VardaValar1: but I've been working so much with the other parts of the Encyc, that it didn't get far
VardaValar1: and World of WarCraft also takes a bite from leisure time ;-)
Valandil Valar: indeed
VardaValar1: We have some members whose main interest is language, not into other things
VardaValar1: I tend to like it all!
Valandil Valar: me too
VardaValar1: Would you like to help with the Language page, for Sindarin?
Valandil Valar: sure
VardaValar1: I would love to see which words you use for your horse
VardaValar1: That could be an article in itself
Valandil Valar: that is, if u where tlaking to me
Valandil Valar: :-)
VardaValar1: Articles don't have to be frightfully long
VardaValar1: I was
VardaValar1: Eonwe already jumps in and helps with everything ;-)
Valandil Valar: i can try and we can discuss the progress here
Eonwe Valar: :}
VardaValar1: Email me what you use for your horse and I can put it in the page
ArPharazonV: sure, could have its own sub-section in web-news ;-)
VardaValar1: Why?
VardaValar1: We don't do that with other Encyc stuff
Valandil Valar: well most of it are commands, so, not really usefull in conversation
ArPharazonV: well, important updates... and it is web... but if you don't want to, never mind
Eonwe Valar: It's useful in the RP :}
VardaValar1: Commands can be very helpful!
VardaValar1: I always tell updates for the Encyc, true
ArPharazonV: heheh.... maybe I can speak to Quess�l�m� in Sindarin then ;-)
Valandil Valar: i have some macro's in sindarin in WOW
VardaValar1: We use them in our Role-play on the Forum, and can use them while doing online gaming
VardaValar1: Excellent!
VardaValar1: You could list them too
Valandil Valar: i can try
VardaValar1: Practical usage of Sindarin!
VardaValar1: If you could put them in a macro, you can type them into an email ;-)
Valandil Valar: it's really very rudimentary, just a start
Valandil Valar: like : 'die', 'run'
Valandil Valar: hello
VardaValar1: good
Valandil Valar: things like that
VardaValar1: Other people like those for their gaming too
Valandil Valar: i will try to send u something
VardaValar1: While awake, type it up, then email it to me : )
VardaValar1: That's all there is to it!
Valandil Valar: my human priest speaks sindarin and quenya lines
Valandil Valar: my elvish hunter only sindarin
VardaValar1: We used to have a lot of Sindarin and Quenya quotes from the time we only played Diablo 1 :-)
ArPharazonV: 'die'?
VardaValar1: We still do it some now all over
ArPharazonV: you say 'die' to your horse?
Valandil Valar: sterf
Valandil Valar: nee
ArPharazonV: yes, I know what it means :-)
Valandil Valar: havo dad
Valandil Valar: that's a command for my horse
ArPharazonV: but still...
ArPharazonV: you tell your horse to play dead or something?
Valandil Valar: no
ArPharazonV: or were you just giving WoW examples?
Valandil Valar: havo dad, means 'sit down'
Valandil Valar: yep wow examples
VardaValar1: from movie : )
ArPharazonV: ah, ok
ArPharazonV: yes, I knew it sounded familiar...
ArPharazonV: does he say it to Legolas?
VardaValar1: Aragorn to Legolas, aye
Valandil Valar: yes in the council of elrond
ArPharazonV: great! my memory's still alive!
Valandil Valar: and at this late hour
ArPharazonV: indeed!
ArPharazonV: well, I just had this quote in my mind... Viggo's voice saying 'have dad, Legolas'
ArPharazonV: *havo
Valandil Valar: klopt
ArPharazonV: ah.... it's all flooding back... was this when Legolas said to Boromir who Aragorn really was?
Valandil Valar: this is no mear ranger, u ow him ur allegiance
ArPharazonV: right!
Valandil Valar: well i'm going to bed now
Valandil Valar: namarie
ArPharazonV: Mara mesta! :-)
Valandil Valar: or what was the other one
Valandil Valar: mara mesta
ArPharazonV: goodbye ;-)
Valandil Valar has left the room.
ArPharazonV: well, in that case... I'm off too, I guess
Eonwe Valar: Hehe, here's a misuse of a Quenya word for you
VardaValar1: Making repairs to Language pages. Eonwe pointed out some link problems
VardaValar1: ?
Eonwe Valar: I have a Nal computer :}
Eonwe Valar: nal is "dell in Quenya :}
Eonwe Valar: I'm flipping through the Lorebook, happened to stumble upon that.
VardaValar1: ohhh hohoho
VardaValar1: Priceless
Eonwe Valar: I thought someone might enjoy that :}
ArPharazonV: :-)
ArPharazonV: anyway, saving
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